gb news. >> good evening, and welcome to vote 2024. the people decide with me. camilla tominey coming up on tonight's show. we will, of course, be discussing reform's manifesto. sorry. no contract to the people and discussing everything that nigel farage has said today, with reforms chairman richard tice will also be speaking about rachel reeves, the woman who wants to be the next chancellor, discussing how labour would bnng discussing how labour would bring us closer in alignment with the eu. wasn't that what we voted against during the brexit campaign and indeed england versus serbia? it's a win for gareth southgate. while getting all the reaction from germany .

all the reaction from germany. don't forget, as ever, get in touch by visiting gbnews.com/yoursay first. so though, here's the news with polly middlehurst . polly middlehurst. >> camilla, thank you and good evening to you. well reform uk launched its election contract with the british people today in south wales, describing it as a serious plan to reshape the way the country is run. reform leader nigel farage said he wouldn't call it a manifesto because too many voters have lost confidence in the term . lost confidence in the term. instead, he outlined plans to freeze all non—essential immigration and take britain out of the european convention on human rights. he says his party would also introduce a new tax for employers, which choose to hire workers from overseas , and hire workers from overseas, and earnings under £20,000 a year would be tax free, with extra funds made available by abolishing the government's net zero targets. mr farage says he

wants to restore trust in british politics. >> the great british public. he wants some hope, he wants some aspiration . those at the lower aspiration. those at the lower end of the income scale who can't make ends meet, those who are trapped on benefits and i mean trapped. they can't get off because you work for more than 16 hours a week. they take your benefits away. and we're aiming at those people. we're aiming at people who would like well paid jobs in the manufacturing sector i >> nigel farage meanwhile, a press association poll of polls reflecting party ratings over the last seven days gives labour the last seven days gives labour the lead, still with 41% ahead of the tories on 21 and reform uk on 15. but prime minister rishi sunak says he'll fight on and intends to win. >> there's still two and a half weeks to go in this election. >> i'm fighting hard for every vote because i believe we can win and there's a very clear choice at this election. it's having your taxes cut by the conservatives or facing significant tax rises with the labour party. now we know now

the manifestos are all out. everyone's cards are on the table with the conservatives. we will cut your taxes at every stage of your life. and in contrast with labour, the tax burden is going up to the highest we've seen in our country's history . country's history. >> rishi sunak. well, sir keir starmer is promising an end to what he's called chopping and changing in government, which he says discourages investment in britain. he also vowed to drive down what he called child poverty after the institute for fiscal studies warned the number of children affected by the two child benefit cap will rise by a third over the next five years. but sir keir saying the cap will remain under labour, look, it's a tough choice, i'll be clear about that. but one of the things that we are not going to do as we go into this election is to make announcements about changes that we can't afford, because a lot of damage has been done to the economy. so i'm taking the tough choice to say to people before they vote, these are some of the things we won't be able to do because of

the state of the economy. what i don't want to do is, is do what the tories are doing, which is sort of promise the earth without the funding. and, you know, guess what? after the event, as we've seen in the last 14 years, nothing gets delivered i >> -- >> so keir starmer now the lib dems say fuel duty relief should be expanded to 20 new areas to support motorists in rural communities. sir ed davey backed up claims by the rac that fuel retailers are continuing to charge persistently high prices despite falling wholesale costs. the party's leader says rural motorists have been particularly clobbered by the cost of living, and he's calling for the current scheme to be expanded, which sees retailers cut compensated for passing on lower prices to drivers . so ed davey saying drivers. so ed davey saying it'll be funded by tackling tax avoidance, costs £7 million. >> and in our costings we published when we launched our manifesto, we had many ways we were raising the money. one of the big ways is through tackling

tax avoidance . we're going to tax avoidance. we're going to invest £1 billion a year in the tax authorities so they can raise 7 billion. they reckon they can raise more than that. but that's what we've put in. and this would come out of that money that's the news. >> for the latest stories do sign up to gb news alerts. scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. common shirts. >> thanks for that, polly. right, let's go through the reform manifesto. stroke contract with the people . so as contract with the people. so as discussed on the news, migration will be frozen for all non—essential migrants. the boats will be stopped by leaving the echr illegal migrants will be detained and deported. small boats will be picked up and taken back to france . in the taken back to france. in the nhs, all frontline nhs and social care staff will play zero bafic social care staff will play zero basic tax rate for three years. the income tax threshold be lifted to £20,000. the inheritance tax threshold to 2

million net zero drive will be scrapped. green levies to bring down energy bills. we're going to save £5 on every 100. reform says that the government spends. they're going to cut foreign aid spending by 50% to save 6 billion, lift the vat threshold to 150,000, and indeed introduce a patriotic curriculum in primary and secondary schools . primary and secondary schools. banned transgender ideology. tax relief of 20% on all independent education and on welfare. enforce a two strike rule for job seekers with benefits withdrawn from people who repeatedly turned down work . so repeatedly turned down work. so that's the manifesto highlights. earlier today , nigel farage was earlier today, nigel farage was speaking to gb news political editor christopher hope, who asked him about how his pledge to stop the boats would work in small boats . small boats. >> pick them up, take them back to france. i mean, if it was that easy, it wouldn't be a crisis. well, leave the echr. okay, so echr leaving first. before that can happen, leave the echr establish a law that says that no one comes via this

route , will ever be given route, will ever be given refugee status, and then if you have to pick them up and take them back for their own safety. and the issue there of migration , you want to get back to back to zero in a couple of years. won't that be a huge problem for companies that rely on it? >> this is zero net migration. okay it means skilled people can still come. people can go, of course. coui'se. >> course. >> and the history, the idea of a patriotic curriculum. >> i am just so sick to death of our youngsters being told that we are a uniquely bad country because we pursued slavery as if we were the only country in history. >> it was bad though, right? >> it was bad though, right? >> it was bad. yes and every other european country. and it's still happening in many parts of the world today. but why not teach them as well that we spent 40 years with the royal naval squadron driving slavery off the high seas, and that the british government spent more money stopping slavery than it ever earned from it. make sure kids get a sense of balance. >> nigel farage there talking to

christopher hope. well, let's bnngin christopher hope. well, let's bring in katherine forster, our political correspondent, and discuss some of the numbers, because i've got the costing in front of me here. so it seems to me and i will obviously ask richard tice for more detail about these costumes. catherine. but it seems to me that they want to spend a huge amount, 141 billion per year, but they're suggesting from this costings document that they're going to rake that back in potential savings of 150 billion a year. the reaction to that has been that these are big spending pledges, and that it actually looks makes trussonomics look quite tame by comparison . quite tame by comparison. >> yes, i was at the reform spnng >> yes, i was at the reform spring conference in doncaster. and these numbers are pretty much unchanged. unchanged from then. and i said at the time, makes liz truss look like a model of economic restraint. now, nobody could say that reform are not trying to do something different or they're not trying to be bold. they certainly are. and of course, there's a lot that's going to appeal to people not paying tax

till you're earning 20,000, abolishing nhs waiting lists within two years, etcetera , within two years, etcetera, etcetera. but look, this is phenomenally , phenomenally phenomenally, phenomenally expensive. so to give you a rough idea, labour's spending plans about 5 billion a year plus about another five on the green prosperity. most of that green prosperity. most of that green prosperity. most of that green prosperity would come from extra borrowing. conservatives about 13 billion a year, lib dems about 27 billion per year. the reform party are 141 billion a year, only topped by the greens on 162. now, i think if you look at those numbers, the fact that, let's face it, unless something absolutely astonishing happens, labour are going to be in power in a couple of weeks , in power in a couple of weeks, reform greens not going to be in power making these huge, huge commitments. i think worth saying. the institute for fiscal

studies has said sums in this manifesto do not add up. spending reductions would save less than stated. the tax cuts would cost more than stated by a margin of tens of billions of pounds per year. >> and i'll put that to richard tice in just a moment. the argument, i suppose, in reform's favour here is that this is a campaigning manifesto, not a manifesto necessarily to govern. i mean, there's good politics here because this is handing red meat to righties who have grown increasingly frustrated with the conservatives they're crying out for a fully throated conservative small c manifesto . conservative small c manifesto. and this is what this delivers. i mean, the manifesto wouldn't have looked out of place in a sort of pre cameron tory campaign, would it. >> no. and i think if you're going to put yourselves forward seriously , you ought to have seriously, you ought to have some credibility in these numbers. i think saving 50 billion a year and through

wasteful government spending. not saying there is no waste, but questionable how you would do that. but taking that aside, and of course, a lot of what reform are saying are pledging is going to be hugely appealing, to traditional conservative voters who feel that the conservatives have lost their way . and many labour voters who way. and many labour voters who trusted the conservatives back in 2019. >> the red waters brexit done, and that this will be appealing to so are you saying you don't think it's credible, catherine? well i don't understand how you find 50 billion. >> i mean, you know, that's a blanket number that's saying saving five, 5 in 100. you know, they've said that they want 30,000 more people in the army. they've said they're going to give an extra 17 billion to the nhs. that's surely going to mean that a lot of departments would be squeezed massively. and there's also already, big cuts factored into the conservatives

plans for after the next election that labour have accepted . so i find it difficult accepted. so i find it difficult to get my head round these numbers . well, let's get into numbers. well, let's get into the detail. >> i'm going to drill into the detail with richard tice. who's going to come up? may not matter. look, i've asked catherine the question. now i'm asking you, is this a credible manifesto for a credible opposition? nigel farage has obviously said, look, conservatives aren't the opposition . they won't be. opposition. they won't be. labour are going to win a landslide. and i'm the only person that can hold labour's feet to the flames. do you believe him? what's your reaction to what you've heard today in merthyr tydfil? get in touch. leave me a comment @gbnews .com forward slash your say with your views this evening on that question and we'll revisit that in just a moment. and also, maybe this interview will influence what you have to say to me. because joining me now to discuss this is indeed richard tice, the chairman of reform uk . richard, lovely to reform uk. richard, lovely to see you. i know you've raced from wales to paddington to be in our studio to speak to me today. look, you've heard catherine's verdict here. she's had a look at the costings. i've got the costings in front of me

as well. nigel says that this is as well. nigel says that this is a not a manifesto because you associate the word manifesto with lies. so this is a contract with lies. so this is a contract with the people. but i mean it is lies isn't it, if it's completely undeliverable. nonsense. >> good evening camilla. so look, this draft contract has been out there as catherine rightly said, since late february, including most of these numbers with a few tweaks. and the reality is that nobody has seriously questioned their ability . in has seriously questioned their ability. in fact, more than that, if you look at the three big items. so you've talked about where we would invest the savings, but actually if you look at the three big items, the first one is the bank of england should not be paying interest . should not be paying interest. and all of the printed money, what's called the quantitative easing that it's voluntarily deciding to do. i've triggered a whole debate now in the establishment within the, within the city as to whether or not this should be doing. other central banks are not doing it. this is £700 per adult here in the uk. so we are already

shaping an influence. but let's hear me out. let me let me go through. that's £35 billion. >> how have you come to that figure? >> because it's very simple. economists have completely debated that figure. they say that yes, this is a good policy. we stopping bank interest on qe reserves. but actually it will only raise at best 3 billion. so have you come up with 35. it's incredibly dependent on interest rates isn't it. at the moment they're high. what if they're low. >> it's incredibly simple and they clearly can't work a calculator. the number is 728,000,000,007 30 billion, which is the current printed money at the current rate of interest is about 5.25. are that right? >> the current rate of interest? exactly. yes. do you agree with me that interest rates are going to come down? >> well, barely. let's remember 5. so the figures hang on, hang on, hear me out. if you want to ask a question, let me answer. okay. 5% plus or minus is about the long term average of base rate over decades, except in the last decade. so it's a perfectly

reasonable assumption. i've always said that's the current interest rate. interest rates could go up. camilla in which case this sum goes up. last yean case this sum goes up. last year, the government spent £20 billion. so that's the that's the key thing there . right. the the key thing there. right. the great thing is people now agree the principle is right. you can argue about the number. >> the next thing is well, it's important to have the number isn't it. >> and i've put the number out there because i want to trigger there because i want to trigger the debate. but at the moment even the most generous number, if interest rates are cut, i'm sorry, you're not going to make as much money from this. and what if interest rates go up, camilla? then the number's even bigger down. >> oh, come on, mr tice. we're very aware of the fact that the bank of england is going to cut interest rates probably in august. they can't go up any further. inflation's come down. rates will come down. that's what's happening in america . so what's happening in america. so this 35 billion is a bit chunky isn't it . isn't it. >> if interest rates go up camilla the number grows. the point is that is a mathematical calculation based on where interest rates are today. a year ago, camilla, people didn't think that 4% could go to 5.25, right? the second, the second key item, the second key item is

the only person that seems to think that interest rates are going to go up rather than down. they could do either, and i've been very clear about that. i'm not saying they're not going to go down. i'm saying it's a mathematical calculation. anybody's suggestions. it's just 3 billion clearly can't work a calculator. >> the second key thing about your savings and waste, where are they going to come from? the 60 billion. >> the second thing is net zero. when net zero was voted through, no one said that it was going to cost 30 billion a year. no one said it was going to cost three t trillion pounds. that the national grid estimates is the cost of net zero. no one said that we would have to build thousands of pylons across the engush thousands of pylons across the english countryside, blighting our environment. these are the things and this is the costs. and it's only reform uk that says if you scrap net zero, it'll make no difference at all to global climate change. and these two main parties are obsessed by you will save tens of billions of pounds of taxpayers cash every year. the whole point of a democracy, right? you get that? thank you. that's another 30 billion. >> can you go through where

you're going to get this 50 billion? >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> in savings. so which government departments are you going to find the savings in? and where are you going to find the highest savings you've talked about? >> simple, right. >> simple, right. >> finding them in government departments, quangos and commissions. >> do you know how many quangos and commissions and departments there are? >> there's over 600 of them, many of them, frankly, utterly useless. the truth is right. whether we look at our personal bills at home and we say it's tough, we've got to we've got to tighten our belt, we've got to save £5 and 100 and still pay the bills. small businesses, owners, managers are doing exactly the same. you say to your spending managers, you've got to save £5 and 100. otherwise we're going to go bust. do it, get it done. we come from the departments are the most wasteful. can you let me finish right. the most wasteful. can you let me finish right . we've got to me finish right. we've got to say to every department across the whole piece , right. we are the whole piece, right. we are going bust as a nation. if we carry on spending hundreds of billions more than we earn, we've got to change. we've got no growth in the economy. everybody is getting poorer. we've got to cut wasteful spending. when i talk about cuts, the waste in the nhs , i

cuts, the waste in the nhs, i always get contacted by doctors and nurses, says richard. thank heavens you're saying this. there's so much waste everywhere. the idea, anybody that suggests there's no waste in the public sector when it's employed, we all agree there's a lot of waste. >> well then let me answer the question. >> 600,000 more civil servants and public sector workers in five years. and productivity has got worse. waiting lists have got worse. waiting lists have got longer. which proves my point. there's waste everywhere. what you've got to do. >> where would you cut? everywhere camilla? everywhere there is waste. you got a list of priorities , liz. of priorities, liz. >> which department wastes the most money, mr tice? >> very simple. >> very simple. >> what you do as a boss is you say to every spending manager of every department, you've got to save £5 and 100 without cutting the front line. that's right. and if you don't guess what, you're fired and all of a sudden, in the world of business, that's what happens. they save the money they stop wasting money on. nice to have. and we've got to run the country in the same way that you run a business that's in trouble . business that's in trouble. >> and if we don't totally understand it, well, that's my point. but which which department has do you think

wastes the most money? >> i think i'm just asking you a simple question. >> you must have done a deep dive to which my answer is all of them. >> every single one. and some of the quangos, there's probably 100 to 200 and sorry, there's probably 100 to 100 and 50 to 200 quangos and commissions. just scrap them. no one would nofice just scrap them. no one would notice a blind bit of difference. you've just got to you've literally got to be really tough, really businesslike on this. otherwise we're not going to create growth. what this does crucially , and it's the only party that talks about this. we've got to create some conditions for growth in this economy. we've got the longest recession per person. if we keep tinkering around the edges like these socialists of labour and conservatives do, then we're not going to create any growth. in the 80s and 90s, we grew two at and a half to 3.5% a year. no one's talking about that except us. that's the opportunity we've got to go for. but to do it, we've got to be bold. >> we've got to be different, and we've got to be better twice, just really finally, because we're running out of time here. >> the ifs says that spending 17 billion a year trying to reduce

those nhs waiting lists to 0 in 2 years is not credible. it's not been achieved in the history of the nhs. will you need to spend more than 17 billion doing that? you think nonsense. >> this pathetic, defeatist attitude by these think tanks who've got no idea what they're talking about. most other western nations don't have waiting lists. why have we got waiting lists. why have we got waiting lists? i'll tell you why . because we're using a monopolistic provider. we need to use millions of operations from the independent health care sector , which, by the way, wes sector, which, by the way, wes streeting now agrees with me. i've been talking about it for a yeah i've been talking about it for a year. we need to encourage those who can afford to pay a bit more right , to actually give them tax right, to actually give them tax incentives to go private, to go independent, so that you ease the pressure on the nhs. these are the bold, different things that we've got to do. we've got to have a different approach to healthcare, still free at the point of delivery, but if we're not brave and ambitious to achieve what other nations are achieving with their outcomes, their waiting list numbers , we their waiting list numbers, we will never make progress. all we're doing at the moment is pounng we're doing at the moment is pouring more money into a black hole and getting worse outcomes. all right, richard tice, thank

you very much indeed for joining me, not least after a very busy day in wales. >> thank you. coming up next, we're going to get some reaction from an all star panel, going to speak to a righty and a lefty for reaction to reform s, not reaction to reforms, not manifesto but contract. don't go

welcome back to vote 2024. the people decide with me. camilla tominey. now, earlier, i asked you if reforms contract stroke manifesto is a credible opposition. does it mount a credible opposition? is it credible opposition? is it credible as a document? one viewer says, how can anyone vote for a bunch of self—serving , for a bunch of self—serving, intellectually challenged political pygmies, which is i mean, please get off the fence and tell us what you really think robert says about time a party came out with a credible manifesto stroke contract , so he manifesto stroke contract, so he likes it. another viewer says the reform contract is the longest fairy story i have ever read. there you have it . well, read. there you have it. well, let's debate it out. joining me now to discuss today's

announcements in wales is former labour mp and minister bill rammell and political editor of the independent, david maddocks. almost mentioned your previous role, david, because i know you from my old express days. indeed. lovely to see you bill and david. i mean, you can see the mixed reaction there. it's a good piece of politics, this everybody's talking about it . everybody's talking about it. but this is a manifesto for campaigning, not for governing, isn't it, gents ? isn't it, gents? >> absolutely. i mean, there's only one aim in this entire document. and that's to take conservative voters away from the conservative party in this election. if i were labour, if i were keir starmer's people, i'd be secretly delighted with what's happened today, because it will help destroy the conservative party. and if by some miracle, farage does become a leader of a new centre right or the conservative party, he's just got a list of targets now to hit farage with over the next five years. will >> it's crude populism, simplistic solutions for very complicated problems. it's

wholly lacking in credibility. you know, the ifs critique this afternoon is devastating . the afternoon is devastating. the sums don't add up, and you know , it's. >> but no one sums, you know, we have this with all of the parties, right? there are sums that just aren't adding up. there are parties claiming to cut tax even though they're putting tax up manifestos. you know, we had labour's offering. it's all smoke and mirrors. we have tories offering and we can't quite drill into the detail because they say one thing and do another, you know. are any of these documents worth the paper they're written on? question one. question two what has happened to conservatism in this country that it's reform thatis this country that it's reform that is coming up with what are the most tory policies that we've heard in this entire election campaign? >> but look, camilla, you can challenge all the parties on the balance of their fiscal plans . balance of their fiscal plans. but this reform agenda is off the richter scale in terms at least. >> they're saying what they at least they're putting some money on it. what we've got is a labour manifesto that is saying

it's not going to tax working people without specifying who they are. we've had wes streeting on the airwaves yesterday saying , oh, well, it's yesterday saying, oh, well, it's not really our spending plans. it's just a manifesto . so we it's just a manifesto. so we don't know what we could be hit with. if a supermajority comes in, you know, our wealth could be taxed, our property could be taxed, our council tax tax bands could be changed. they're not being honest in their manifesto ehhen being honest in their manifesto either. i'll tell you what. >> if you compare this election to elections in decades past to give a commitment not to raise national insurance, not to raise income tax, not to raise vat, those are the major taxes on working people . and labour is working people. and labour is making clear we're not going to do that. >> but what are they going to tax then bill? >> because how are they going to pay >> because how are they going to pay for everything. they don't want to put taxes up. they don't want to put taxes up. they don't want to put taxes up. they don't want to borrow too much money and they don't want austerity. well to paraphrase, where's the money coming from? >> paraphrase this is a new labour party. it's not addicted to tax and spend. and our program, i will acknowledge, is predicated on growth getting the major house building programme going, removing regulatory barriers to growth and really

turbocharging the economy. >> tax wealth for growth. when's that historically worked? >> well, well hold on. is this a new socialism? >> no. if you compare the record of growth under the last labour government to this tory government, it's worth about an extra 150 billion extra. you can use that growth , you can tax it use that growth, you can tax it and you can actually generate the funds that we need for pubuc the funds that we need for public services. but compare and contrast to this dogfest that reform have put forward this afternoon, it's wholly lacking credibility. i agree, it's about trying to peel votes away from the tory party, but you know , the tory party, but you know, this is not serious politics. >> it will succeed in doing that, though, simply because the tory party has given up being conservative. and this has been its problem for the last two years. well, maybe even longer than the last two years. well, some people might say it's been its problems since the days of david cameron's election, but you know what? >> far be it from me to advise the tory party but i think they've got to stop treating reform as a vote for labour, because people have plugged in a labour victory. they've got to

start taking reform on, on the arguments. >> and this is incredible, dave. i mean, you covered brexit campaign for the express very, very closely. >> went up and down the country speaking to red wall voters this may well appeal to those people. this may well appeal to bill your old voters who then switched to boris johnson and the tories in 2019. i mean, this is a you know, this idea of helping the little man is of great appeal to the working classes of this country, isn't it? >> the language about small businesses are of a language about immigration will certainly appeal to red wall voters. this is why, red wall mps were having nervous breakdowns about reform even long before farage said he was going to stand it, so, you know, it's certainly going to be effective whether whether they can deliver on these policies , can deliver on these policies, we will never know. but he won't need to deliver on them because they don't. >> this is about holding tory feet and labour feet to the flames, isn't it? i mean, is it credible for him to say , dave, credible for him to say, dave,

first of all, then bill, that he is going to be the effective opposition after the election and that he could run for pm in 2029? nigel farage there is there is a path for that to happen. >> but it involves the collapse of the conservative party, which is his primary aim in this election. >> so how does he rise from the ashes of the collapse of the tories and become an actual, credible candidate to be pm in 2029? >> so the first step of that is to become the mp for clacton, and maybe have 2 or 3 others from reform with him . the second from reform with him. the second step of that is the conservatives essentially getting less than 100 seats, probably, and doing some sort of deal probably, and doing some sort of deal, which will anyone be listening to the right if we've got a supermajority in the house of commons? >> the benches are literally full of reds rather than blues orindeed full of reds rather than blues or indeed turquoises. who's going to be listening at that point? >> well, and there's going to be massive turmoil in the tory party. one, i'm not convinced,

nigel farage will win clacton. i think it's on a knife edge, but i think the strategy is he and a couple of others get elected. they then defect to the tory party and said he doesn't want to do that. >> yeah. and he said he wants to attract the likes of braverman and rees—mogg and others to reform. >> and he said a lot of things that he's gone back on. i think that's the crude strategy. but i'll tell you this, i think the tory party if they allow him in, will rue the day that they do that because they will be confirming they've moved away from the centre ground of british politics. and ultimately, whatever people say, the centre ground is the only place that you can win a general election. >> but then you could argue that the centre ground has moved. i mean, the fact that this manifesto, which wouldn't have looked out of place in a 1980s or 1990s tory government, is now seen as somehow extreme. it's just it's a right wing manifesto, isn't it, just it's a right wing manifesto, isn't it , because the manifesto, isn't it, because the centre ground has moved, bill, you've got to accept that. >> but but look at some of the substance, you know, apparently reform are far right. >> well, if reform are far right what are nazis. okay. >> but they're not they're not

actually standing up for the little man, as you said. you know, raising the tax threshold to £20,000 a year, not only hugely expensive, but that's going to take about 60% of the population out of taxation. do we really want people to have no stake inheritance tax for millionaires , you know, is that millionaires, you know, is that the priority when we can't fix millionaires ? millionaires? >> well, if you raise the inheritance tax threshold above 650 for couples, that's going to incorporate loads of labour voters. >> hold on. you can pass on. >> they're not millionaires. >> they're not millionaires. >> you can pass on £1 million without paying a penny of tax. farage is saying you double that to people very quickly. >> you've got to go to the break. >> i mean, i think it will be effective and we can see it in the polls. >> where will reform top out? are they going to top out with 2025? what do you think? >> i think they'll top out around 15 actually i think really. >> yeah. go up to go down. all right. >> i think they'll top out behind the tory party. all right. >> bill rammell david maddox, thank you very much indeed. top debating chaps. love that. thank you very much. well, we're going

to debate the eu plan that rachel reeves has outlined to the financial times. alignment with the eu is that what

welcome back to vote 2024 with me. camilla tominey. rachel reeves, the woman hoping to be the first female chancellor has given an interview to the financial times, where she has said that labour would seek improved uk eu trade terms if they win the election, despite her claims here is labour leader sir keir starmer today insisting the party has no plans to rejoin the party has no plans to rejoin the eu. the single market or indeed the customs union. >> our central focus and mission, if we come into government, will be on growing the economy and making sure that we're creating the wealth that this country needs. >> we've got brilliant skills. we've seen some of that have been fought here, and that will make sure that everybody is better off. now that means investing, attracting investment

and improving our relationship with the eu. >> it's not about going back into the eu . we've left. we're into the eu. we've left. we're not going back. it's not about the single market and customs union. >> but i think everybody would say the deal we've got is not good enough. >> joining me now to discuss this is the former brexit negotiator under boris johnson, lord frost . lord frost. the deal lord frost. lord frost. the deal you negotiated isn't good enough, says keir starmer . enough, says keir starmer. what's your reaction to that? well, of course he'll say that. >> it's a very good deal. it's the biggest free trade agreement in the world. nobody else has got a zero tariff, zero quota deal with anybody. this is a standard but very broad, very deep, very effective free trade agreement. >> do you find starmer credible as the arch remainer of yesteryear , when he says that we yesteryear, when he says that we would not rejoin the eu , the would not rejoin the eu, the single market or the customs union should labour win power on july the 5th? >> well, i think he wants to get as close to those things as possible. possibly he won't with a stroke of the pen, join the single market on day one. but he's already admitted in the

manifesto that he wants a food and agriculture to veterinary deal and agriculture to veterinary deal, which will require subordination to eu laws. we heard from rachel reeves this morning that they wanted a chemicals deal. that's a big industry in this country, not mentioned in the manifesto at all, and this is what we can expect to see keir starmer, rachel reeves, all the people around them, they think we ought to be part of the eu and they can't stop themselves floating new ideas, although they know that it wouldn't be politically expedient to reopen that can of worms . worms. >> when rachel reeves says that the tories are fixated on regulatory divergence, she says i don't think anyone voted leave because they were not happy that chemicals regulations were the same across europe. when my constituency voted leave , it was constituency voted leave, it was purely because of immigration. >> i mean, it's a it's a silly argument because quite possibly , argument because quite possibly, you know, you can't you couldn't find somebody who voted on those grounds. but that's not the point. what people voted about was , do you want your laws set

was, do you want your laws set in this country or in another country? and that was what was at stake, whether it was immigration, whether it was chemicals, whether it was anything else. and we had a clear answer to that question. rachel reeves , keir starmer rachel reeves, keir starmer others are quite happy with having our laws in part set in other countries. and that's the problem. >> okay . let's bring mike >> okay. let's bring mike goldsworthy into the conversation. he's the chair of the european movement uk. and you can also address his points. david. mike i mean, you must be a bit disappointed that starmer the arch—remainer isn't going further. he doesn't want to rejoin the eu , he doesn't want rejoin the eu, he doesn't want to rejoin the single market or the customs union. so what should remainers do? support the liberal democrats who have at least had the courage to admit that they'd like to be back in europe , good evening. camilla. europe, good evening. camilla. hi, david, well, i'll. european movement uk is a cross party organisation , so we support organisation, so we support pro—europeanism in all the parties and it's there in all

the parties in fact, there's a lot of it now in the conservative youth because like with, for example, this chemical situation , it's natural, it's situation, it's natural, it's conservative. to be pro—business and to get government out of the way of business. and so if business says these set of rules are good for us, we like them. we want to work with them, and we don't want to see them duplicated to the wheel, reinvented so that we have to fill in forms twice over, costing the industry £2 billion. then a sensible government would just listen. >> okay, but aren't you disappointed that the labour leader who railed against brexit for all those years that he served as shadow brexit secretary, is now reneging on what he once believed in the interests of political expediency are, we think he should be going further, of course we do . i mean, our course we do. i mean, our organisation thinks we should be fully back in the eu as members, like you and i had that

conversation last time. yes, everything in life is an experiment. you try it out, you see if you like it, that goes across all of politics and people have the power, to tell their governments, we want this now, we want that now. and it also goes for different sectors . also goes for different sectors. so if you've got, for example, your farming industry , vie your farming industry, vie absolutely losing it at the moment over there, trade problems. and you've got the same thing in the chemicals industry and you've got problems in, for example , pharmaceuticals in, for example, pharmaceuticals industries, then every government is the responsible thing for them to do to say, right, how can we get out of your way and help you function better? and if they say, well, that set of rules over there we don't have any problems with and never did, can we just go with those instead of duplicates that you're making out of some ideology to be different, then a sensible government should say, yeah , go on then. of course yeah, go on then. of course we're here to help you. >> okay, let's put the debate that we had last time, mike, to

david frost, because you were arguing that we should have another referendum , that it another referendum, that it wasn't a lifetime vote, that actually it's eight years on. people have regretted it. even brexiteers have had regrets. so why don't we have another poll? not all, not all, some. not all. okay, that patronising but but would i is the public as a whole thing okay. i'm just i'm just summarising that debate because i don't want to engender another pile on on x. mike, despite us having a nice feasible chat. but david was nice. >> i was being playful at the time. yes. >> yeah. thank you. it engendered a load of abuse my way from a load of disgruntled fellow back pro—europeans. i mean , i'm only expressing an mean, i'm only expressing an opinion. other opinions are available, but let's ask david frost that again. >> if i see that again, i will go in and tidy it up because i don't like that on x from any side, and also doesn't do our country any favours of people throwing insults. and i did see mike, so thank you. i'll have your back. >> david frost thank you mate,

david frost a second referendum. people are having regrets. the government's mishandled this . government's mishandled this. what do you think? should we have another vote? >> no. obviously not. this is a settled vote, and we are hardly at the beginning of our life as at the beginning of our life as a country outside the european union. we've only been outside it for four years. and as i've kept saying, the government has done a lot less than it really should have to start getting the benefits, reforming, changing , benefits, reforming, changing, setting us off on a different path. but we've got our new trade agreements , we have begun trade agreements, we have begun some reforms, and i'm confident we're going to see the benefits. >> so even under a labour government, well , if the labour government, well, if the labour government, well, if the labour government sticks to the arrangements that we negotiated, which are very good arrangements , then perhaps we will. >> but unfortunately i don't think that's what they are going to do. >> let's go back to mike goldsworthy briefly. this has only been in operation for four years because, to be fair, the deal had to be negotiated. so we can't count back eight years because it wasn't enacted for

some time. and actually we need to give it a chance to work properly. >> how long do you want to give it a chance for? because david, much as though i take what david has said and i respect his opinion that he thinks it should be given more time. >> if you ask the public at large, they think brexit has been bad already. large, they think brexit has been bad already . lots of people been bad already. lots of people have seen the impacts on their lives . i mean, and who says that lives. i mean, and who says that it has to be longer? so much so respect david's opinion. he is one person in about 67 million and we should be listening to everyone, including those people, not just sat in the lords, but actually out there in the chemicals industry trying to get things to work. you actually want to be more aligned with the eu because that's what works better for british businesses. >> very final word to david frost. thank you. mike galsworthy . galsworthy. >> it's probably a very minority opinion too. i think , to think opinion too. i think, to think that we should be having another

referendum any time soon. >> i mean, i my tendency would be to think hasn't the country suffered enough, but let's leave it there. i can imagine that's a debate that's going to keep on running and running. whoever's in government on july the 5th. thank you very much, david frost, for joining thank you very much, david frost, forjoining me. and thank frost, for joining me. and thank you to mike galsworthy, who i hope will not initiate a twitter pile on after that very cordial interview. now, coming up next, we're going to be discussing the england result. we won jude bellingham. is he the beckham? is he than beckham and all things football.

welcome back to vote 2024. let's leave the election campaign and talk about the euros. england won one nil against serbia yesterday with a brilliant header goal from jude bellingham. ben jacobs was there and is in hamburg. he joins us now. freelance sports journalist . ben, what was the atmosphere like then? i think 10 million people watched it. were the brits behaving though they were?

>> there was moderate trouble beforehand and a series of arrests, although none of them england fans. and then inside the stadium, a very positive atmosphere in england got off to atmosphere in england got off to a flying start. as you mentioned, jude bellingham quite literally flying in with a header and it looked like it might be a bit more simple for england, but they didn't kill off the game. and in fairness, we then saw serbia really grow and it took a late save from jordan pickford to protect england's clean sheet and all three points. so the first half very positive . they looked like very positive. they looked like one of the favourites for the tournament. the second half a bit more flat. but so much has been made of england maybe having defensive frailties. so you could argue keeping a clean sheet under pressure puts them in a good position heading into the rest of the tournament . the rest of the tournament. ultimately, the only thing we'll be talking about if they progress and win is the final stage of the tournament. so first games often get forgotten and the only thing you have to really do is not lose them. so job done from england in terms of points and clean sheets, but they certainly could have played

better, particularly in the second half. >> absolutely. a win's a win, right? even if it's been slightly drawn out in the second half and we're all hiding behind the sofa. can we talk about jude bellingham because i appreciate we're only a match down, but he's already promising to be the most talked about player of the tournament . but he's only 20 tournament. but he's only 20 years old. i was watching the game and then reading up on him on wikipedia just to find out, you know, where he started. he got signed to birmingham, at birmingham city at eight, i mean, it's just incredible. an incredible talent. ben. >> well, when he left birmingham city, they retired his shirt. and i think that says everything because he was a teenager at the time and it got somewhat derided . but now we know why. because birmingham city knew that he would be not only a superstar, but a very grounded character. and when he won the champions league, he was straight over to his parents when he was spoken to after scoring the goal and being the hero. ultimately for england, he was saying, i'm not just jude bellingham, i've got a whole team around me. so you've got a very humble guy with an

incredible talent who's been given the freedom to have swagger and burst through the centre, and that will impact on phil foden , who may have to stay phil foden, who may have to stay a little bit wider. but is england's front six? collectively they're hungry, they're talented , there's not a they're talented, there's not a better attacking unit in the tournament and bellingham is part of that. but what makes him special is he's also part of the defensive aspects as well. and he gets box to box. he protects his backline, he does a bit of everything and this is what makes him a superstar. >> i mean, england are the favourites going into this tournament, as you say. you look at the team sheet and you look at the team sheet and you look at these phenomenal players and think to yourself, goodness me, there is a strong chance, chance that it could be coming home. i mean, what's your view on it, ben? how strong are our chances of winning this thing? >> well, i think we have to call england one if not the favourite, the other team to watch is france. some will say the host, germany, watching them against a very poor scotland team. portugal are not to be discounted either, but england should be the kind of squad that we're talking about. winning this thing and anything else will be a disappointment . and

will be a disappointment. and even though it's a young squad for gareth southgate, he's only contracted until the end of the yean contracted until the end of the year, so he'll feel this might be his personally speaking, last chance to win major silverware. they've been in the business end of tournaments before under him. now they have to get the job done. tournament football is always unpredictable , but always unpredictable, but there's no denying they've got there's no denying they've got the quality. the question mark is at the back against stern opposition. harry maguire didn't make the tournament due to injury. luke shaw has been injured and now is subsequently back with the squad, so they might be exposed at times at the back. and that again is why that clean sheet in the opening game will be a real boost . will be a real boost. >> yeah, we very much need luke shaw on the left wing, don't we? and then finally there's been a bit of controversy very briefly, ben, over the singing of ten german bombers. i mean, what's the deal? have you been hearing that being sung a lot ? that being sung a lot? >> i think generally this kind of chanting is frowned upon and ihave of chanting is frowned upon and i have heard it. but ultimately, what's good to see is the authorities clamping down on it straight away. and we can't normalise this kind of chanting

whether it's war related and of course, tragedy related. as we've seen in the united kingdom at games with things like hillsborough as well. so the punishments need to be there. there's plenty of police around. and the good thing is that when a mindless few have chosen to sing in that way, the police have been very quick to clamp down on it, so hopefully it won't happen again . won't happen again. >> all right. and so we're looking forward to the next match on thursday i believe. bit of an earlier kick off, which might mean that there's less trouble on the streets of germany. >> yeah. and it's a big one as well. england ultimately are not there yet. they have played denmark of course, and that's going to be a difficult game. but i think when you win your first game, you really only need a point to then likely get out of the group. so england will be very confident now and they'll feel that they can get better and better with every game in the tournament. >> ben jacobs enjoy it out there. thank you very much indeed for joining there. thank you very much indeed forjoining me this indeed for joining me this evening. thank you. let's let's bnng evening. thank you. let's let's bring football fan tom harwood into the conversation. england fan england fan. there we are.

great stuff. state of the nation coming up at eight. tom what have you got to cover. >> well my goodness what a back and forth we've heard today over tax in all of these manifestos. jonathan ashworth of course shredded a physical copy of the conservative manifesto. we'll be asking is it all the other manifestos as well that deserve a bit of the shredder treatment ? a bit of the shredder treatment? do any of these plans actually stack up that , and a very stack up that, and a very interesting architectural idea for the centre of london. >> are any of the manifestos worth the paper they're written on? that's the question that tom harwood be asking at 8:00. i'll be back here tomorrow night at seven. but up next, before you watch tom, just catch up on the weather. >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers sponsors of up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hello. good evening. welcome to your latest gp news weather update from the met office. it will be another bright start to tuesday. however, it's going to cloud over through the day and

there's a risk of some pretty heavy showers. once again, low pressure still quite close to northern areas, so that's bringing that shower risk, particularly across the north and east through today. but that shower risk will move over to the northwest through tomorrow. so a few showers still to come for eastern scotland through tonight as well. it will remain fairly cloudy and drizzly across northern areas of scotland, but elsewhere for the rest of the uk, it'll be a clear and dry night, with the risk of some mist and fog developing by tomorrow morning, and temperatures around 11 or 12 degrees for most towns and cities. so bright start to the day on tuesday, potentially a bit of mist and fog around , but bit of mist and fog around, but it's the far north of scotland that's going to see the cloudiest of skies. and with that northerly wind it's going to be feeling not a lot like summer at all. 11 or 12 degrees at best, nine degrees for some of us, and some quite persistent drizzly rain. now temperatures rise as we head further south, with more in the way of sunshine to start the day. as i said, there is a chance of some mist and fog and notice this massive rain over the near continent that will start to approach from

the south and east through tuesday and through tuesday lunchtime. and we could see some heavy rain across parts of kent and sussex and then towards essex. parts of suffolk as well later on in the day. so here it will turn potentially quite wet. we could also see some very heavy showers across western areas of scotland as well as northwestern england, but elsewhere a dry and fairly bright day but a little bit cooler than today. tomorrow now another bright start to come on wednesday and wednesday is looking like a much brighter day, but by and large as well. however we do have a weather front approaching from the north and west that will bring thicker cloud to parts of scotland, northern ireland as well. later on in the day. but for most of us it stays dry and bright as we head through wednesday, thursday and likely into friday as well, with temperatures rising towards 24 degrees, a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> good evening. i'm tom harwood, bringing you the state of the nation. tonight is the labour party and likely next government. being honest about your taxes after wes streeting admission yesterday of the party manifesto not being the sum total of their tax and spend plans . keir starmers senior plans. keir starmers senior adviser has appeared to endorse adviser has appeared to endorse a further £15 billion in tax hikes . but a further £15 billion in tax hikes. but the a further £15 billion in tax hikes . but the labour party is hikes. but the labour party is fighting back all guns blazing. >> this is the tory manifesto utterly shredded by by jeremy hunt . hunt. >> meanwhile, the reform party today issued not its manifesto but what it calls a contract with the people. but does the policy match the rhetoric ? and policy match the rhetoric? and the tories have hit out over