me. patrick special with me. patrick christys. welcome to vote 2020 for the leaders . for the leaders. yes. welcome to a special edition of vote 2020 for the leaders. i am patrick christys and tonight i'll be bringing you a special sit down with the man hoping to be prime minister in two weeks time. sir keir starmer, the leader of the labour party, sir keir, will be answering the questions that you have sent in. so please keep them coming because this is the first of some interviews to come with other party leaders as well. tonight will be a show about all of the leaders. we have representatives from each of the three major parties. exactly two weeks before one of them takes hold of the keys to downing street. what has rishi sunak really got in store for the younger generation? for example , you'll have a set of example, you'll have a set of sanctions and incentives, and we will look at the models that are existing around europe to get the appropriate mix of those.

>> there's a range of different opfions >> there's a range of different options that exist. >> for example. yeah >> for example. yeah >> i mean, is it right that people who don't do national service get the driving licence taken off? i suspect many of you think it is right, actually. so get in touch on that. and is sir keir starmer still in no man's land when it comes to his previous support for jeremy corbyn? >> when you said jeremy corbyn would make a good prime minister, did you mean it? look he would be a better prime minister. >> well, look, look what we've got boris johnson. >> well, yeah , but quite a lot >> well, yeah, but quite a lot happened under that boris johnson tenure didn't he. and would jeremy corbyn have really dean would jeremy corbyn have really dealt with any of that better? it will be a good talking point. plus cancer ed davey ever shirk the legacy of the coalition of lib dem chaos? >> anyway, britain desperately needs a leader who we can respect and trust . your media respect and trust. your media profile is mainly consisted of horseplay on tv. is this prime ministerial? >> wow. reacting to all of this , >> wow. reacting to all of this, i'm very pleased to say i've got the former conservative minister dehenna davison . i've also got dehenna davison. i've also got former head of media for the liberal democrat, sean kemp and

the labour councillor brendan chilton. we've got a cracking show tonight. it's all go. sir keir starmer will be answering your questions in about half an hours your questions in about half an hour's time. but first it's the . news. >> good evening. i'm sophia wenzler and the gb newsroom. your top story this hour. opposition leaders are accusing the tories of being corrupt after a string of people with links to the party are caught up in allegations of betting on the timing of the general election. four people are being investigated by the gambling commission, including laura saunders, the wife of the tories campaign director craig williams , another conservative candidate, has also admitted to an error of judgement after placing a bet on when the election would take place. prime minister rishi sunak says any lawbreakers will be booted out of the party, but lib dem leader sir ed davey says the conservatives aren't learning from their mistakes. >> people know the outcome of

something and they bet on it. i think that's immoral, and i don't think that looks i think it looks right , don't think that looks i think it looks right, and too often in this parliament, we've seen the conservative party, its only members of the conservative party looking like they're in it for themselves, not for in for pubuc for themselves, not for in for public service. and what's in the best, best interests of the country . country. >> meanwhile, rishi sunak's attempting to move on from the scandal , accusing labour of scandal, accusing labour of planning to change every rule they to can stay in power if they to can stay in power if they win the general election. the prime minister is urging the voters not to sleepwalk into the polls on the 4th of july. speaking at the launch of the conservatives manifesto for wales, he warned against falling into labour's trap . sir keir into labour's trap. sir keir starmer says jeremy corbyn would have made a better prime minister than boris johnson. he was facing a grilling from members of the public alongside rishi sunak sarah dyke vie and john swinney at last night's bbc question time leader special in york. the labour leader says

he's now changed the party and claims it's clear to see the chaos that happens under a conservative government >> the choice at the last election before the electorate was not a good choice. you had bofis was not a good choice. you had boris johnson , who won and then boris johnson, who won and then three years later was thrown out of parliament for breaking the rules that jeremy corbyn, who is now expelled from the labour party. that's why i have been so determined to change the labour party and to make sure that that change labour party puts forward a credible manifesto for growth so that at this election there will be a real choice between carrying on with the failure of the last 14 years, or turning the last 14 years, or turning the page and rebuilding the country . country. >> and in wales, workers at tata steel have announced an indefinite strike from the 8th of july in protest over the company's plans to close blast furnaces and cut 2800 jobs. unite, who represent more than 1500 members in south wales, says this is a first uk

steelworkers strike in over 40 years. tata is transitioning to greener steel production, but workers argue it sacrifices their jobs and community. workers argue it sacrifices theirjobs and community. and their jobs and community. and for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news .com/ alerts . to gb news .com/ alerts. >> okay, so welcome back. now since becoming labour leader, sir keir starmer has struggled with his stance on jeremy corbyn. initially, he praised corbyn. initially, he praised corbyn as a potential great prime minister and served in the shadow cabinet. however, he later expelled corbyn from the party, only to then say that corbyn would have been a better prime minister than boris johnson. during a bbc question time special last night. let's take a look. a bit later on at that clip. but here with me to discuss all of this is the former conservative minister dehenna davison. we've also got former head of media for the

liberal democrats, shawn kemp and the labour councillor brendan chilton. well, brendan, i will have to start with you on this. would jeremy corbyn have made a better prime minister than boris johnson, i always think a labour prime minister is better than a conservative one. >> but at the last general election, the country was served a very poor choice. we had in jeremy corbyn, a man that was totally unfit to be prime minister. we could see that before we went into the election. and then we had boris johnson, who when he became prime minister, it emerged, was also totally unfit to be prime minister that election is now past. we've got a real strong choice between us now. and i think keir starmer is doing an excellent job leading the labour party. >> you know, arguably i'll tell you what, let's play the clip and then we'll talk a bit more off the back of it. right. so let's let's have it. >> let's answer this. yes or no. when you said jeremy corbyn would make a good prime minister did you mean it? >> look, he would be a better prime minister well, look. look what we've got. boris johnson, a man who made massive promises, didn't keep them and then had to leave parliament in disgrace , leave parliament in disgrace, diana, we've had gaza . i think diana, we've had gaza. i think that could have been quite bad

for jeremy corbyn. the russia forjeremy corbyn. the russia invasion of ukraine as well. there was the covid pandemic. i'm absolutely not saying that bofis i'm absolutely not saying that boris johnson dealt magnificently with that , but we magnificently with that, but we know that did happen. and the final throes of brexit, i mean, keir starmer, right? to even suggest that jeremy corbyn would have dealt with any of that better, do you think? i mean, i think anyone sitting in number 10 with some of the horrific events that we've had to endure over the last five years would have had a hard time and would have had a hard time and would have had a hard time and would have had very difficult decisions to make. >> but you mentioned specifically kind of international affairs there things like ukraine, things like gaza, and that was where i was always concerned about jeremy corbyn getting the keys to number 10. and i'm not just kind of saying that to be tribal. it was what i was hearing on the doorsteps when i was door knocking back in 2019, people raising jeremy corbyn proactively without me even mentioning his name, talking about national security, talking about national security, talking about links to the ira, etc. and i think that was a large part of the reason why, you know, the conservative party did so well because of that stark choice that brennan was talking about. >> sure, there is arguably a bigger issue here, which is that keir starmer has now refused to repeat that again today. so he was asked again today numerous

times. so do you stand by what you said and he refused to engagein you said and he refused to engage in that. do you think there's a bigger picture here, which is do we have any idea what this chap really thinks, or does he tell us what he really thinks and then realises it might be a bit unpopular and then rows back on it all i think, is he's going to be his achilles heel when he gets into government, to be quite honest with you, you can see labour members who voted for him to be leader who are going hang on, you said you were like some left wing socialist who was going to nationalise everything, and now you're sort of saying you didn't believe in any of that in the first place. >> he's kind of got away with it, i think, and it's, look, politically, to be cynical, it makes kind of sense for him. i think it will catch up with him at some point. and there. did you or did you not really support jeremy corbyn things? i think the first time the public, rather than, say, politicos and labour party members, have actually looked at him and gone, hang on, do you what do you actually believe? and he's found it quite hard to actually put that out. in simple terms. >> yeah, but this is one of the big issues hanging over sir keir starmer's head at the moment, which is what does he actually really think this is a bloke who

stood on nine pledges. now a load of those have been reversed. he's now saying he's putting country before party. he's asking us as he not to believe when we vote on july the 4th, that we are voting for a completely different man to the man he's been for the last 40 years. >> i think when you look at what keir starmer has done as leader of the labour party, he has stamped out anti—semitism, he has transformed the labour party. and in this election, the former labour leader, jeremy corbyn isn't even running as a labour candidate. so in that sense, i think we can look at keir and go. he is prepared to make tough decisions to change institutions. the labour party, we know what he did when he was director of public prosecutions. the labour party has laid out its manifesto and i think actually in keir we've got someone who might not be the flashiest and most showman of leaders, but is a serious guy for the serious times. trust you on that. >> the director. this comes up a lot. when he was director of pubuc lot. when he was director of public prosecutions, did he not just do his job? >> he did do his job, but i think he did it very well. and he prosecuted terrorists in northern ireland. criminal gangs, etc. yes, that was his job. but actually that sort of experience that he had in tackling those sorts of issues, i think is something defending

them in the echr as well. something you wanted a prime minister, i think the fact that the someone is prepared to take on tough opposition and make firm decisions, and i think given the state the country is in at the moment, is exactly the sort of man we need. >> there was another, i think, trap really in a sense that keir starmer fell into this is on illegal immigration. so he was asked repeatedly what are you going to do about the bibby stockholm? are you going to are you going to get rid of it? are you going to get rid of it? are you going to get rid of it? and he kept saying, well, you know, this is a visible sign of the tories failure, that we've got a barge and it's full of people who've arrived in this country illegally, but he actually can't answer it. he can't answer what he will do. and this is something that rishi sunak has been trying to push him on, saying that basically that the tories plan for illegal immigration might not necessarily be working, but at least they've got a plan and labour don't. do you buy that or not, i mean, i do. you wouldn't expect me to say anything otherwise, would you? but i think it's something that i noficein think it's something that i notice in starmer a lot when he is being interviewed. he likes to talk around a question. i'm not saying evade necessarily, but not talk himself into

corners. whereas i think what a lot of the public like is a politician who just gives straight answers. and so when asked about something like bobby bibby stockholm, would you keep it? would you not to talk around thatissue it? would you not to talk around that issue and not give a clear indication? and the answer may be we don't know yet. we need to get into power and look at what the situation is and then we'll review it. but that's still at least a straight answer rather than just flowery talk. yeah indeed. >> and this is again coming back to something we were talking about just a moment ago, sean, which is there are a series of direct questions like this. what are you going to do about the bibby stockholm barge? he's had numerous members of his shadow cabinet saying that this barge shouldn't exist. okay, we are about to get it. looks like we had a record day in the channel the other day. from what we've been told here @gbnews, that's going to continue. the french are coming off the beaches to help police the olympics. they've also got now a rush of people being forced through the continent by these human traffickers, tries to get to england before for the european union, countries may be imposed some tougher, tougher rules. so keir starmer could conceivably have a migrant crisis . wollop have a migrant crisis. wollop right on his right on day one to

deal with. he doesn't seem to have any plans, does he, if he has got plans , he hasn't really has got plans, he hasn't really set them out in any great detail. i mean, look, this is the labour party strategy across a whole load of things. they are not setting out things in a lot of detail. the manifesto is very thin. it is a conscious political strategy. it's a sensible one because they're so far ahead. they just want to not make mistakes. i think it stores up problems when they get into power and they have to do a lot of things, some of which can be unpopular. and then i think a lot of people are probably going to then turn around and go, hang on. you never told us you were going to do all of this when you were campaigning. and i think what we're seeing on him getting tough questions about the corbyn is probably going to come in the first few months when he becomes prime minister. >> well, what does stick with this? because what is the liberal democrats view on things like the bibby stockholm and what's going on in the channel? i think, look, the liberal democrat position will be i'm no longer a liberal democrat spokesman, so i'd be a little bit more free. >> he's obviously going to be more of a pro—immigration position. they will take a position. they will take a position probably not that dissimilar to what labour are saying, which is what you need more international community, more international community, more international community, more international cooperation,

then you need to deal with things at the source and so on. they're not going to get into what they would see as being like anti—immigrant rhetoric. that's the sort of so the way the lib dems, you always go and labour does as well, the more sort of left wing of politics, you you always say, well, we've got to deal with the problems at source. we've got to cooperate with french. got to cooperate across europe. that is all, by the way, sensible stuff that you do need to do. i think there are a lot of voters in constituencies where they're seeing the impact on the ground. do you hear that? and go, yeah, but we're not sure that's that phrase there about not wanting to engage in the rhetoric. >> some people watching this and listening to this now might say, well, if you're not engaging in the rhetoric, then you're not willing to actually necessarily tackle the problem. and at the end, i'll always be back over to you, because this is kind of a tory related issue. now which is, is that not maybe part of the reason why nigel farage is doing so well? i saw a poll just before i came on air today, apparently reformer at 20. the tories are down at 19. and it's because he is saying this stuff isn't it, i don't know. i mean you look at the migration issue and it is an issue. it's been an issue for a number of years now. you know, it's not comfortable

seeing numbers rising, crossing the channel. and yet you know what i would say is the conservative party has tried to get legislation through parliament that will address some of the issue. it's not the whole hog. of course. they just have to be more international cooperation. of course there does. we need to re—engage with the french, make sure they're pulling their weight as much as they should be doing. but some of the measures we're taking are actually going to be really positive. i think about james cleverly with the numbers around migrant visas, etc, to try and get those numbers down, earnings limits, all that sort of thing, it's steps, it's positive and it's steps, it's positive and it's tangible and at the moment we seem to be kind of the only party that's coming up with tangible solutions to this problem. they might not be the be all and end all. and i'm open to suggestions. of course i am. but at least there is something tangible on the table that voters can vote for rather than rhetoric. >> yeah, and brendan as well. this is a problem that the labour party have said that there's currently around 90,000 people, probably a few thousand more now since that figure was released, but around 90,000 people who under the conservatives illegal migration act , were never going to be able act, were never going to be able to even claim for asylum in this country. what labour are saying, that they would give them the opportunity to do that . so let's

opportunity to do that. so let's see how many of them would stay. you also get this massive influx that we are expecting over the summer . you get the fact that we summer. you get the fact that we might now be out of step with continental europe when it comes to our attitude and policies there. is there not a genuine risk that a labour government with the home secretary of yvette cooper , with the refugees yvette cooper, with the refugees welcome sign, you know, might end up actually becoming some kind of magnet for these people in a way that even more than we are, i think there's no doubt that on july the 5th, if keir starmer is prime minister and yvette cooper's home secretary, the first issue they're going to have is the summer migration crisis. >> yeah, i live in kent. this has been going on for years . and has been going on for years. and on july the 5th, the small boat crossings and the asylum claims are not going to suddenly stop, given, as you've just said , the given, as you've just said, the french are going to be policing the olympics. it's going to get worse. now the question is, what's the labour government going to do about it? they've said they're going to increase the border security forces and beef that area up. that's not going to happen overnight. it takes time to recruit and train people, etc. and i think, frankly, for the first year, whoever was, whether it was a tory government or a labour

government, we're going to have a summer of a migration crisis. i don't necessarily agree that labouris i don't necessarily agree that labour is going to be come on, everyone, come in. because frankly, the country's in such a mess and we don't have the money to accommodate so many new arrivals. the government will have to take a more firmer line, which, as blair did when he won and just just on this because, last night, sir ed davey , i last night, sir ed davey, i think i'm right in saying this, refused to categorically rule out a coalition with labour, i think so. >> so my thinking with this is if , if, if we >> so my thinking with this is if, if, if we end up with an election scenario where there needs to be some kind of coalition, which is not the likeliest outcome at the moment as it currently stands, i would say the fantasy perfume and presumably some of the lib dems red lines would be pave the way to rejoin the european union and well, not more of what we've seen in the channel, but certainly not doing that much to stop it. >> i would, i thought, no, i'm not sure about that. actually. i think ed davey is a pretty realistic politician. i don't think he's going to go in and 90, think he's going to go in and go, you know, the two things we're going to want to be remembered for in the lib dems is going to be, you know, two incredibly frankly, unpopular

policies. i think he probably would want more cooperation on things like single market and see if there was more he could do there. but he's been quite canny in this election. i think he'd avoid any kind of trap like that in the wildly unlikely, circumstance you've outlined. >> all right. yeah, well, indeed, we never know, though. you never know. okay. right. well, look, stay tuned, because we've got a heck of a lot more coming your way. we're going to be hearing from rishi sunak as well. a couple of clips from him from last night, but i suppose the main event of this show anyway, is that we're going to be hearing from sir keir starmer very, very shortly. rishi will also be sanctioning young people, though apparently for not complying to mandatory national service, which is a great talking point if nothing else . very keen to see how you else. very keen to see how you feel about that. plus, sir ed will he ever sink that legacy of perceived

welcome back to vote 2024 the leaders. now, during last night's bbc question time, prime minister rishi sunak said that

if 18 year olds were to refuse his proposed compulsory national service, then they may face sanctions such as losing their driving licence or limiting their access to certain finances. although he didn't specify exactly what that means when asked whether or not this would include denying young people of their bank cards, his response was simply, there's a lot of different models around europe which, to be fair, there are a lot of different models around europe, but i think we can hear from him now. >> have a set of sanctions and incentives, and we will look at the models that are existing around europe to get the appropriate mix of those. there's a range of different opfions there's a range of different options that exist. for example, there's all sorts of things that people do across europe, whether that's looking at driving licences, other access to finance, all sorts of other things. there's a range of things. there's a range of things and we will have a royal commission look at all of those, come back to the government and recommend what the appropriate mix of incentives and sanctions is . is. >> okay, so here with me to discuss all of this is the former conservative minister, dehenna davison. i've also got former head of media for the lib dems. it's sean kemp and the labour councillor brendan chilton. and i'll start with you on this. a lot of our viewers

love this idea of national service. they do and i do wonder whether or not they might think that all right. if you refuse to do it, then there are some consequences . what do you think? consequences. what do you think? >> so. so i don't like it as a policy. i'll say that from the get go. but i think if you're going to do national service, you've got to do it properly for it to really mean the sort of things that we're implying. it means if it's to improve patriotism, improve sense of worth, develop skills and have that military angle, then it has to be a military national service. and yet that's not necessarily what's being proposed as we know. it's ehhen proposed as we know. it's either, you know, i think 30,000 places in the military per year or volunteering , i think one or volunteering, i think one weekend a month, to, to kind of gain some skills, which are two very different things and kind of i worry that we're being a little bit inconsistent in our policy here as well, because you look at the fact that we are promoting apprenticeships, people to go on do apprenticeships, start their working life earlier, start to earn their own money, make their own decisions, and yet are we going to pull them out of those apprenticeships at 18 to do this? it seems very backwards to me. and at a point when we're

talking about what we want for our young people, we want them to work hard, get on the housing ladden to work hard, get on the housing ladder. i really don't see how this is going to particularly help. >> okay. all right. i suppose just taking it at face value if somebody actively refused to do one of the two things which are one of the two things which are on offer, which is to do a year's actual military service or to do things like deliver prescriptions to the elderly one weekend a month, which i don't think is that much of a big deal personally, then. yeah. all right. they should have consequences. you don't want to be a spoilt brat all your life, do you? >> i'm not sure. i'm comfortable with the idea of. i don't mind the idea of some kind of national volunteer service that people can be incentivised to sign up to. i think there's a lot to recommend it. i don't think i really like the idea of the fact that you can just go around and order 18 year olds to give up their weekend, and if they can't, you're going to chop up their bank cards. i think that's a slightly odd way for any government to interfere in people's lives. and that's a problem for rishi sunak is he's trying to describe something that, in one way is quite sensible policy. and, you know, they do lots of countries by encouraging young people to

volunteer. so you'll tell a heartwarming story like he did on that debate about, saint john's ambulance and people earning crucial medical skills. but then you remember, he's also got to make it sound like it is what? something it's not, which is forcing everyone to join the army. so he goes, and if you don't do that, it'll be these terrible consequences if he's honest about it. i think you'd have a lot of people, people more widely across the country, including quite a few young people who go, yeah, it sounds all right to me. but he's not actually being honest about what the policy is. >> well, all right. okay, brendan, i mean, the other really big policy for kids in this election is the labour one, which is enfranchising them with the vote. and when you look at those two things side by side, i do wonder whether or not national service is better. >> well, i personally don't agree with the votes. at 16. i don't agree with the national service element either. i think the best thing we can do for our young people actually, is train them in setting up their own businesses, encouraging more people to take on apprenticeships and get to university if they want to volunteer in the community, fine , but i don't think we should be mandating anything. the issue with votes at 16 is if you lower the voting age and you say you

can vote at 16, the next thing is, well, why can't we for stand election at 16? and you could excuse me, conceivably have a situation where 16 year olds can vote but then can't run in an election and that i don't think is entirely democratic . is entirely democratic. >> it's a good point, and one that i must say i've not really heard before. i think you would have to let them run for election, wouldn't you? >> you would. and you'd then have a situation where children that are meant to be staying in education, training or work up until they're 16 could potentially be sitting where diana was sitting. a few weeks ago in the commons. at the same time, they'd have to give their teacher a sick note or something to get out of class to do it, but it isn't inconceivable. >> but they can't buy a pint in strangers bar at the end of the night, that's true. >> self—respecting teenager would rob that . would rob that. >> wayne's been on. wayne's says hit them with a £5,000 fine if they don't do national service. look, wayne, i'm not against that in principle. the only problem is we would all end up paying problem is we would all end up paying that £5,000 fine. unfortunately, i get where you're coming from, but they're not going to pay it back, are they? they can't be bothered to get off the backsides one weekend a month and deliver a

prescription to dorothy at number 42. and we're not seeing that five grand again, mate. but there you go. i mean, what are there you go. i mean, what are the lib dems going to do for young people as well, though? because you also want to let them vote, don't you? they also had support votes for six. >> i'm such a how disassociating are you now ? are you now? >> i have a very loyal lib dem. >> i have a very loyal lib dem. >> i've never eaten at the time when i was working for them i was never a fan of 816. probably just because i think it's a bit logical. you seen generally in society , for good or ill, we're society, for good or ill, we're actually raising the age thresholds on a lot of things. we seem to be treating 18 as the age when you're an adult and you can buy a drink and all the rest of energy drinks, all that stuff. >> yeah, yeah. >> yeah, yeah. >> and then we then we say, but on voting, you're going to lower it. i get the arguments for it, but i don't think the benefits of it are really going to come from. i don't see actually what the benefits of it are. i know i sound most solid, i do believe in pr, i promise. >> i think surely the better thing, if we want young people to feel engaged in the democratic process, is to actually teach them about it properly at school, teach them how it works, teach them the impacts of their decisions when they vote, how to scrutinise

policy, how to not get taken in by a dodgy tiktok. >> i think that's the more important thing we need to do to get young people invested. >> and i do also wonder, there's a lot of talk of, oh, this is vote rigging, isn't it? because what they'll do is they'll naturally, if you're not left wing at 16, then you know, you haven't got a heart or whatever they say. and then, you know, well, are they really going to vote? i can see a future where there are minibuses put on from schools, and i don't think that's an unreasonable thing. oh, come on, it's polling day. remember what the tories are going to do to your school if you don't vote for labour. i can see that happening. i can see that happening. but i wonder if that happening. but i wonder if that could backfire because there is the capacity, i think, for especially young men , to be for especially young men, to be quite right wing actually. >> well, you're right. and there have been some kind of attitude surveys done recently that show young men are tending towards being more right wing and becoming more right wing as they age, whereas young women are going the other way and representing for the progressive alliance here. >> right. well, there you go . >> right. well, there you go. >> right. well, there you go. >> no, no. so, so i think you're right. i think we're there to be, you know, a charismatic, young, kind of cool, social media savvy candidate who's particularly right wing then they could definitely go down

quite well with young men and scoop up some of those votes. the question, though, is about the demographics of how many of each of those votes sits per constituency, because actually, i'm not convinced that there would be enough per constituency necessarily to sway things in a really dramatic fashion . really dramatic fashion. >> right. >> right. >> okay. all right. your, your views on, on that whether or not the youth might actually swing to the right, i think it's entirely possible if you look across the channel in germany and in france and in holland , and in france and in holland, the support for the right hard right in those countries is coming largely from younger voters. >> and although we're not, identical to those european countries, as diana just said , countries, as diana just said, if you had that sort of character here, that could win them over, it's not inconceivable. young people, particularly boys, could go to the right. >> yeah, i think so as well. right okay. well, there's still a heck of a lot more to get through because we are going to be talking a little bit more now exclusively about the lib dems. whether or not ed davey will be able to come back from some of the criticisms that he's had over tuition fees in the post office scandal. et cetera, et cetera. et cetera. and yes, we are going to be hearing from sir

keir starmer, christopher o'shea political editor, who's been doing a sit down interview with the labour leader, the man who, as the polls suggest at the moment, most likely to go on and be are your next prime minister.

welcome back to vote 2024. the leaders. now, shortly, we are going to be hearing from sir keir starmer. he's done a big sit down interview with our political editor, christopher hope. it'll be fascinating to see what he has to say there, weren't he? but before that, let's talk about another one of the leaders and it is sir ed davey. well, the last time that the lib dems made promises on tuition fees, they failed to keep them after partnering with david cameron's conservatives in what some now refer to as the coalition of chaos, that failure of the lib dems to keep their promises caused the party to lose a significant number of seats at the subsequent general election. it's fair to say it wasn't wasn't just the tuition fees issue, but it didn't help. however, the current party leader , sir ed davey, now leader, sir ed davey, now insists the party have learned from those mistakes. you have a

little listen to sir ed. no. okay. why not? anyway, here with me to discuss. this is the former conservative minister dehenna davison, former head of media for the lib dems, sean camp . the labour councillor, camp. the labour councillor, brendan chilton. i'll tell you what he said. he said, look, we've learned from our mistakes. that's basically what he said, is that fair enough? is there not a credibility gap here when it comes to sir ed davey on tuition fees, on impacting about in windermere and doing all these kind of stunts on the post office scandal, etc? i mean, is he really got what it takes to potentially be a leader of the opposition in a couple of weeks? >> i think he's done pretty well at this election. i think he did pretty well last night actually, because on a lot of times lib dems have done those things, previous leaders and they've really struggled because they've just tried to justify it all and pretend it wasn't that bad. what he did quite well was go, yeah, we got it wrong. i'm not going to make that mistake again. i made mistakes and actually he then got a bit more of a hearing because people were prepared to listen to someone actually admitting they'd made a mistake.

>> does he get enough of a rough ride, though? to be fair, because we have got a recent example of what the lib dems have been like in government. and they were rubbish, weren't they? >> well, i mean, you say coalition and chaos. i'd say that was the last period of functioning government in this country has had, quite frankly, i think what he's true is the lib dems are always going to get punished. and angela merkel, once said smaller party in the coalition always gets smashed because the point of coalitions is you compromise. and i think voters don't expect that. certainly in british politics you go into a coalition, you go into government, your government should do everything you should do. and look, the germans deserve to get punished a bit. we did as a party. we'd campaigned on tuition fees and we said, no, we're not doing also allowed there to be, a bit of a rubbish referendum on av. >> wasn't av, which is not even really what you particularly wanted, was it? you wanted pr? no but i suspect you're a reform voting viewers which wish we'd won that now don't they? >> so, you know, actually with hindsight, you know, maybe we you know, some people might think it would have been better if we'd have won it because i think you're seeing now the flaws, the first past the post system, seeing parts of nearly 20% of the vote, you're going to win like 3 or 4 seats, maybe. >> okay, but fair enough, now we are not going to give either of you too much of a chance now to come back on the liberal

democrats. i'm afraid so. sorry about this, everybody, but i kind of not sorry because it's the main event now and it's time for sir keir starmer. this is the labour leader who has just been interviewed by our political editor, christopher hope. i believe it's quite a wide ranging interview. so we'll take you to the very first part of that. now keir starmer, we're here in a pub in harlow in essex i >> -- >> nice. >> nice. >> friday night, friday night. cheers, cheers. cheers. very good to see you having a drink with gb news. exactly 40,000 majority. who are the working people you want to cut taxes for? if you become prime minister? >> working people are people who work for a living. they pay their national insurance, they pay their national insurance, they pay their income tax and they, broadly speaking, don't have the wherewithal to write a big check when they get into trouble financially. now, that will be many millions of people who don't have very much in savings . don't have very much in savings. it now would actually cover quite a lot of people who do have savings. but, you know, as

any working person knows , who's any working person knows, who's got savings, you work hard, you put those savings aside normally for a car or a holiday, possibly a house or a deposit for yourself, for your children . you yourself, for your children. you certainly don't want to be using that for money energy bills or cost of living crisis. it's those people who rely on our pubuc those people who rely on our public services and work for a living, and that's why i've said for working people, no increase in income tax in national insurance or vat. i think they're already paying too high a price under this government. >> are you thinking a bit about your dad? i mean, he obviously was a toolmaker, worked in a factory . is there a bit of factory. is there a bit of snobbery, do you think, in britain towards blue collar workers ? workers? >> well i do, i mean, my dad worked in a factory and, he did feel pretty well all of his life that people looked down on him and chris. he hated that discussion , that in any social discussion, that in any social gathering you have where people say, well , when they meet for say, well, when they meet for the first time, what do you do for a living? and he would be familiar with the discussion that went well. you know, i

worked for the local authority. i'm a lawyer. and he would say, i'm a lawyer. and he would say, i work in a factory and there would be a sort of gap, a silence , probably not that long. silence, probably not that long. but for him, he knew why it was there, which is people didn't know what to say next. and he felt disrespected . so yes, it's felt disrespected. so yes, it's working people out. and, you know, that really matters . is know, that really matters. is that respect at work, the security. but these days , security. but these days, working people who don't have the wherewithal to sort of write a check to get out of financial difficulties, quite a big group now under this government. >> so working people with a few thousand pounds of savings, that's about it. that's you're thinking about who you want to help the most. if you become prime minister. >> yeah, it could be more savings actually. but if you're a working person and you work really hard and you put your money in the bank to save, it's normally for a real purpose. you know , it could be you're wanting know, it could be you're wanting a bigger deposit on a bigger house. it could be a holiday, a special christmas special occasion. what you don't want. if you've worked really hard , if you've worked really hard, and, you know, i've really understand this because it's, you know, working people . it's you know, working people. it's really deep in me. if you've worked really hard and put that

money in the bank for a special occasion, to then have to draw it out because public services aren't what they are, you can't pay aren't what they are, you can't pay your bills. that that is something which is really hard for working people just on tax. >> we've asked our viewers and listeners for questions for you. stephen west is concerned about income tax thresholds. will you lift them? the tories say they'll lift them after 2028 and stop nurses and teachers paying the higher rate of tax . will you the higher rate of tax. will you do the same? >> well, i do want to bring those taxes down, but i'm not going to make promises that are unfunded. i think that's the big mistake that liz truss made. she made promises that were unfunded tax cuts in her case, and the economy took a battering . and economy took a battering. and working people are paying the price. >> you both are banking on growth, aren't you. for your truss multi growth. you want growth. yes. so you've taken some lessons from trusts in a way. >> i haven't taken any lessons from trusts or at least i've taken one lesson which is never even taken one lesson which is never ever, ever have unfunded commitments because working people pay the price. there'll be people watching, chris, your viewers who have maybe been on a fixed rate mortgage for a number of years coming off now , get a

of years coming off now, get a new mortgage and it's gone up several hundred pounds and, you know, they are really paying the price. so that's the lesson from trust. never do that again. stabilise the economy but also grow the economy . grow the economy. >> there are numbers out today on on benefits 25 billion paid on on benefits 25 billion paid on benefits last month . and in on benefits last month. and in here i can't find evidence. you want to cut the benefits bill. the tories are saying they'll cut it by. i think it's 12 billion or so by 20 2829. why are you happy? not to leave that number unchallenged? >> well, just on the tories numbers, the money, they say that they found in their manifesto to fund their commitment was announced . commitment was announced. unfortunately, jeremy harden, the charts, said, i'm afraid, but money's already accountable. but my approach, it's too big. it is very big and we do need to get that number down, there's no doubt about that. and that's why what you will find in our manifesto is our back to work plan . many people on long term plan. many people on long term sickness. we need to get them back into the workplace. 2 or 3 ways of doing that. businesses will support this. i've been to see some of these initiatives. so many people are able to get

back into work if they're supported back into work. and i want to radically restructure the job and bring down the cost of benefits. >> well, i was really surprised that job centres are not places where businesses go to find the people they need for the vacancies , so there's a mismatch vacancies, so there's a mismatch there. >> so i want to bring together careers. the old days they were you weren't job centres. yeah. so it can't be just a way of dispensing benefits. it's got to be a real shop front for. and we want businesses to say that is the place we will go and bring down recruit and therefore bring down recruit and therefore bring down the bill and get people back. it's a double benefit. you bnng back. it's a double benefit. you bring down the welfare bill, but also you get people back into work, which massively helps the economy. >> other taxes, new council , >> other taxes, new council, council tax, council tax bands. yes or no. is that the idea? no we're not. >> you know, all of our plans are fully costed , fully funded. are fully costed, fully funded. >> well they're not mentioned here. council tax. yeah. >> we're fully funded, fully costed, every single plan in this very good manifesto . yes is this very good manifesto. yes is funded. we've said where the money comes from and they don't require tax rises. but what i'm

not going to do chris and i'll be very straight with you, is i'm not going to write five years worth of budgets. yes. 2 or 3 weeks before the election. a lot of our viewers are drivers. >> they worry about the fuel duty when halphen health on country robert halfon country . country robert halfon country. he got the fuel duty frozen. will you keep that fuel duty freeze on fuel duty. >> obviously we're very sensitive to this because we know how impactful it is, every year we've supported the position of keeping that frozen. it's a budget by budget issue. but i would say to anyone who's concerned on this , check our our concerned on this, check our our track record on this, i would also a big hint for gb news viewers, isn't it? well, we've always said freeze the fuel duty. so that's our long history . that's been our commitment. and we do it for a purpose. we know why. yes. the other thing i'd say is we've got a plan for potholes, because if you're a dnven potholes, because if you're a driver, you are driven beyond frustration by potholes. so we've got a plan to deal with potholes. yeah and that will because if your vehicle gets damaged, it costs several hundred pounds usually. and if you use a van or a vehicle for work, you're also without your vehicle for however long it

takes to get repaired. so we've got to fix that. you're okay. >> so that was the first part of a two, i think, part interview with sir keir starmer and our political editor , christopher political editor, christopher hope. i'll just rattle through some of the questions that were asked there. essentially what is asked there. essentially what is a working person, asked a bit about his dad , whether or not about his dad, whether or not the old, my dad was a toolmaker thing is a bit of snobbery when people laugh at that. so there's no plans to cut benefits, which i think is interesting. i mean, there was £11 billion worth of benefits fraud in the last year and a bit i mean, there's an entire town in bulgaria that's been built as a result of benefits, fraud, actually, new council tax bands, he didn't rule it out. i kind of at this point maybe take that as a yes. obviously sir keir starmer would deny that wholeheartedly, brendan, i'll start with you on this. he expanded what his view of a working person was there to include people who may have savings, but they've worked for those savings. it's just everyone, isn't it? >> it's a perfectly logical explanation of what working for someone is, and it just shows

the insight that keir starmer has into the people of our country, and why he's so far aheadin country, and why he's so far ahead in the polls. >> patrick, do i detect, do i detect that ? maybe you're detect that? maybe you're thinking he might actually be a bit out of touch with no , no, i bit out of touch with no, no, i think we all i think everybody knows what a working person is. >> i think the thrust of his argument was that description. yes. it was a bit convoluted, but actually there's a large number of people in the country that have got barely any savings or very little savings, large number of people who, because of the last few years, are struggling with mortgage payments , etc. and i think what payments, etc. and i think what he's trying to do is put labour in that position to show those people in the country, which are many millions, we're on your side. we know how it feels. i've come from that background and so you can relate to me and trust me as prime minister, talk a little bit about that background. >> i'll ask you about this because , for me, i'm not sure if because, for me, i'm not sure if i quite buy this line that my dad was a toolmaker , and he used dad was a toolmaker, and he used to really hate social situations where people would say to him, what do you do? and then they will be very snobby about it now. yeah, there are some

incredibly snobby people out there , but it just made me there, but it just made me think, if keir starmers dad was really a quote , some quotes really a quote, some quotes working person and who's he hanging out with that would be incredibly snobbish towards him. >> yeah, i don't want to get into like a working class off with keir starmer. i kind of i reflected on that myself and thought about kind of where my dad would be like hanging out on a weekend after work, whatever. and it was with his mates who went to the same school as him and grew up in a very similar background to him. he would never have really had those conversations, except on very one off specific events, maybe like a wedding or or something. you know, with me, i was very privileged , got a scholarship to privileged, got a scholarship to a private school, maybe going to my school. he might have felt a bit uncomfortable, but broadly, that would never really have beenin that would never really have been in that situation. >> yeah, i don't know how you feel about that. i'm just not quite sure because he's the only reason i'm asking you right to say no. got into a working class off with someone . i mean, he has off with someone. i mean, he has made a virtue of it. this is the thing. and i'm just not quite sure how true it is. well, i mean, i'm going to choose to, on this one, believe like believe keir starmer saying what he says about his family, the reason why

he talks about it a lot, i think is partly just to show, you know, that he's connected to what people think and if like use patronising phrase, ordinary people's lives, but also because there has been a concerted attempt to paint him as being quite posh, like the conservative party did. >> try and say sir keir starmer like try and imply that he's like try and imply that he's like a peer. he's really. and so he has, he's deliberately trying to go, no, hang on. i've actually someone who has he's got a pretty impressive background of lifestyle, of having sort of pulled himself up. so he's trying to sort of counteract that a bit. he just overdoes it, i think. >> okay, i think you're right. and i think the problem sorry, patrick, very quickly, is that i think it eats into that authenticity. and i think what most voters are looking for in any politician, in any leader, is authenticity. and it just doesn't quite come across with keir, whether it's true or not, it looks a bit like he's very which i can understand by the way, but like he's very scared of having the clanger that costs him the election. >> and i'm with respect, i think having a pint when christopher hope that clanger is not going to happen. right. so maybe he could be a bit more loose. but they we'll see. maybe he's got a few more pints now. >> i didn't see him touch that pint. yeah well, there you go, not cutting benefits . so we have

not cutting benefits. so we have a massive, massive, massive benefit state. we have a lot of people, especially some younger people, especially some younger people who, i think it's fair to say could be working and aren't , say could be working and aren't, and labour does seem to want to do too much about that, keeping a big burden on the taxpayer. >> i think if you look at the overall policy of the party, the policies, growth, stability, jobs and work, of course, you know, nobody wants to see people languishing on benefits. if you look at the uk compared to the rest of europe , we do actually rest of europe, we do actually have one of the toughest and strictest welfare arrangements on the continent of europe. i think the idea that we're not going to reduce benefits further at the moment is sensible , at the moment is sensible, because we have just had the last two years extremely difficult . difficult. >> it's labour, the party, to actually try to revolutionise our benefit system, to get people off their backsides and into work if they can, or is it going to be easy for people to remain on the take? >> well, i think under the last labour government they did pretty well on this. you know, we had record levels of employment, particularly youth employment. and i think under keir starmer we've obviously got to get in, look at the books and

face the economic storms this country is facing. but i think if you go by what we've said and what we've done in government in the past, you can rely on labour to get people back into work. >> all right. now i'm being shouted out a little bit here because we do have part two of this news exclusive interview with leader sir keir starmer. that's

welcome back to vote 2020 for the leaders. and in just a few minutes time, you're going to be heanng minutes time, you're going to be hearing one. in fact, a few seconds time, we'll be hearing a heck of a lot more from sir keir starmer. but our political edhon starmer. but our political editor, christopher hope, did sit down with him earlier on. it's two weeks out from the day that he could potentially take the keys to downing street. we do have part two of this interview for you just to just quickly whizz you through what he's already spoken about. he's spoken about whether or not he's going to raise council tax and particularly give an answer on that. what are they going to do about cutting the benefits bill, he was also asked a couple of other things about whether or

not people found his his dad being a toolmaker, whether or not he thought it was a bit snobbish, that people were chuckling away at that, and he was grilled a bit on what is a working person. but let's find out what sir keir starmer has got to say. >> now dash for energy is wearing green. energy is worrying people. will you ensure that you don't do it at the expense of family budgets, which i mean, the tories have weakened their plans, their targets to do that. >> oh yeah. absolutely. it's very important that we make the transition to green energy because it's cheaper , it's more because it's cheaper, it's more secure, but we mustn't do it in a way which impacts on people disproportionately. we're going to set up gb energy, a publicly owned energy company, and that will actually drive down energy bills not just for a short time, but for good, because i know that particularly in the last two years, so many people have been absolutely clobbered with a high energy bills, which they can't afford. and businesses as well, like this pub right on the small boats crisis. >> sheila trainer wants to ask you about this. do you want to stop the boats ? your manifesto stop the boats? your manifesto says stop the chaos, not stop the boats. will you guarantee the boats. will you guarantee the gb news viewers you will cut

the gb news viewers you will cut the number of crossings by migrants across the channel in year one of your premiership? well, look , we want to get those well, look, we want to get those numbers down. >> nobody, but nobody should be making that journey, and the way to do that is to tackle the gangs that are running this vile trade. there are gangs making an absolute fortune, putting vulnerable people in boats, running this trade in breach of our borders. record numbers this yean our borders. record numbers this year, nobody but nobody should make that crossing. so we want to set up border security command , a new command, an elite command, a new command, an elite command, bringing together all of our police and law enforcement, which will have new powers, counter—terror powers to smash these gangs. and i've done it before. when i was chief prosecutor with terrorist gangs. you work closely. could do it again . we've got to stop this again. we've got to stop this business of people crossing the channelin business of people crossing the channel in small boats. >> i don't want to about betting too much, but will you bet me a pint of beer in year one? you'll bnng pint of beer in year one? you'll bring down the under crossings. >> chris. betting in politics not allowed anymore. very, very badidea.i not allowed anymore. very, very bad idea . i think rishi sunak bad idea. i think rishi sunak seen all sorts of trouble with bets on his on that.

>> do you think it's time that the gambling commission asked him for who he told about the july 4th date? is it time they went to him? >> i think he should come clean and say, who knew he should take immediate action against those that are being investigated? suspend his candidate if they're my candidate , i'd have had them my candidate, i'd have had them out the door without their feet touching the ground and show some leadership on this. i have to say there's a deeper point here, chris, which is about where politics has gone under this government, because where politics has gone under this government , because the this government, because the first instinct of some of those tories in relation to a general election is not what's good for the country . vie but how quickly the country. vie but how quickly can it get to the bookies and make myself some money? i mean, it tells you everything that's wrong with 14 years of chaos and decline, i'm going to move on quickly because i've got limited time. >> you've got to get home, see your families now on a friday night. i know it's very important to you. you're committed to the nhs. i know that of course, your mum was was treated there. your wife works there, but you wouldn't pay for private health care even if one of your children was ill. i find that amazing. as a dad. two things chris. >> firstly, i think the question i was asked was would i pay for private health care to

effectively jump the waiting list? yes i wouldn't, i actually had an operation on my knee some years ago. i waited my turn, but the idea of the prime minister of the united kingdom, who is responsible for bringing waiting lists down. yes. then saying to the public. but as far as i'm concerned, i'm going to jump the queue. but you can afford to. >> most people on a good wage do afford it and pay for it. >> if i, you know, elected him to serve as prime minister, my job is to bring those waiting lists down. and i'm not going at the same time. say, but for me, i'm going to jump the queue that would. >> children, if you can afford, you can take the pressure off the waiting list by paying it for it yourself. that's what margaret thatcher was said. >> no, look, i'm not going to jump >> no, look, i'm not going to jump the queue when others are waiting that queue. i'm going to reduce the queue. the other thing i should say is this because there are different ways this question is put on acute care. people say, well, what if your child was really ill on acute care? the nhs is absolutely the best. so much so that private hospitals refer into the nhs. so if we had an acute case, i'd want to be treated by the nhs because that's the best issue, a chronic issue. >> i'm talking about. >> i'm talking about. >> no i wouldn't, i'm not, i'm

not going to say to the country i'm going to drive down your waiting list . yes, but i'm going waiting list. yes, but i'm going to i'm going to pay to sort of accelerate my cabinet to have the same principles. >> sorry. your cabinet. >> sorry. your cabinet. >> i'm not ideological about it. i you know, i mean, the real political issue here is why so many people feel they've got to go private because they're waiting so long. and we're talking about working people before these working people are now having to pay for hip replacements, knee replacements, because they can't get them quickly enough on the nhs. that's the disgrace of the waiting list damage that this government has done just quickly , on the issue of trust, you say you'd rather jeremy corbyn to bofis you'd rather jeremy corbyn to boris johnson. >> you said why last night on the bbc? i mean jeremy corbyn wouldn't push, wouldn't say he wouldn't push, wouldn't say he would defend this by with nuclear weapons. why would he be better than boris johnson? well, at the last election we had a very poor choice in 2019. >> and what transpired was obviously jeremy corbyn got rejected by the electorate, not the right person. and we've expelled him now from the labour party. so that's how far we've changed the labour party. boris

johnson was elected in as prime minister and a number of years later was booted out of parliament for breaking the rules. that's why i've been so determined to change the labour party to always say country first, party second and make sure at this election, this election, there is a real choice between continuing with the tories or now turning a page and rebuilding the country with labour and keeping it safe . labour and keeping it safe. >> you would do that, wouldn't you, if required? absolutely. >> it's the first duty of any prime minister, and in the labour party we understand that. that's why if you look at the original treaty for nato, which is deposited in brussels at the nato headquarters, you've been there several times. it's got bevan's signature on it, a labour secretary of state? yes. a founding member, founding member of nato. >> on on your patriotism , which >> on on your patriotism, which is a big issue since we first spoke when you became leader. are you more patriotic than nigel farage? >> oh, look, i wouldn't start this business of comparing myself with others. i'm. >> you have a different a quieter sense. i'm truly patriotic in that my mission , if

patriotic in that my mission, if you like. >> the very reason i came into politics is to improve our country and improve the lives of millions of people in our country. i'm very proud of our country. i'm very proud of our country. i'm very proud of our country. i'm very proud to sit, in front of the union jack. i did it when i represented our country as chief prosecutor. but the passion in me, yes, it is. perhaps a quiet passion to improve this country, to genuinely take it forward. i think most people in this country are reasonable , country are reasonable, tolerant, live and let live. they want them. they want to get on themselves. they want their family to get on. they want their community to get on, and they want the country to get on. and that's what drives me. and proving our country is my number one goal. >> just your last question to you. your team want to take you away correctly to see your family being in scotland all day. i understand that i've been looking after me. well, i know you've been watching the football. do voters want you as as pm? do they want a pep guardiola? but do you worry you might be a bit gareth southgate ? might be a bit gareth southgate? defensive, indecisive, boring, even kiss courteous, but no,

that's not to me. >> we've only had two games and england traditionally they can turn it around so we don't often win the first game. we're sort of looking like we need to win the third game. so we're in traditional territory. but what you need is a good team , a good you need is a good team, a good strategy and an absolute steely determination to win. and you need that in politics as well. and i've got it. okay. >> so keir starmer, thank you for joining us tonight for gb news. great to see you. thank you.thank news. great to see you. thank you. thank you . you. thank you. >> okay. so that was sir keir starmer there alongside our political editor christopher hope. quite a lot to go out there . and i will start with there. and i will start with that question. i thought are you more patriotic than nigel farage? i thought nigel, interviewed on the bbc and nigel's, answer to this, brendan was, well , he wouldn't have was, well, he wouldn't have taken his poppy off. so sir keir starmer had a poppy on, did a video and then went to do a piece for elements of the british muslim community. and he took his poppy off and nigel used that to beat him with and say, there you go. that shows that he's not particularly patriotic. is that something

that keir starmer going to struggle with? >> i don't think so. i don't think, you know, in this country we're quite subtle and discreet about our patriotism . in about our patriotism. in america. you go, there's flags everywhere over here. we've just got this effortless superiority. we know we're the best nation in the world. we don't need to shout about it. and that's where i think he is at, you know, he doesn't have to walk around saying, i'm patriotic. i'm constantly going on about it. he has changed the labour party from a party where people questioned whether we would be on the right side and whether we would support the country under jeremy corbyn. and i think now, as you see, labour's perfectly comfortable with the flag singing the national anthem. i know they're sort of very basic tests, but the party has people like jess phillips though, dennis don't you, tweeting the odd thing about some chap wearing a saint george's cross , wearing a saint george's cross, and he was walking home and watching the football. >> it's like they sneer at those people. >> so i saw that tweet and i read it in a completely different way. i read it as if jess saying, what a lad he's coming back from the game. i genuinely didn't read it as anything untoward , but i will anything untoward, but i will never forget emily thornberry's famous tweet with a house

covered in england flags when there was a major tournament on so sneering, so condescending. whereas actually , that's exactly whereas actually, that's exactly what my street looked like growing up whenever there was a match. >> oh, absolutely. >> oh, absolutely. >> i quite like it when that stuff happens as well, so yeah, i'll just i'll come to you on this, sean. you know, is it actually a slight issue, a question mark of patriotism for laboun question mark of patriotism for labour, dare i say the lib dems as well wants to be so close to the eu. >> i don't think it's i don't think in patriotism. no, actually, i think most of the time voters don't really get too caught up in that. are you a patriotic ? i think the exception patriotic? i think the exception actually, as we heard, was jeremy corbyn, because i think swivelled on the edge of being actively dangerous. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> because you're actually hang on, i'm not actually sure which side you might be on in this one. i think beyond that, people are fairly tolerant of, they do assume most people are patriotic. people express in different ways, but as long as they don't feel that you're sneering or they kind of doubt your loyalties, folks are pretty tolerant on this. >> all right, well, let's deal with a couple of other big ones now. so, christopher, hope there asked him whether or not he would reduce channel crossings within a year. he tried to get him to bet him a pint that he

would, keir starmer would not be