trail . four weeks down campaign trail. four weeks down and over. 12 more days to go until we know who will be forming the next government. are the tories toast? i'll be asking the tories toast? i'll be asking the home secretary, james cleverly, whether he thinks it's less disastrous out there than polls predict. for the conservatives bridget phillipson, the shadow education secretary, will be here. will she give me a straight answer about labour's vat school plans? we live in hope, as nigel farage claimed the west provoked the russian invasion of ukraine. joint deputy leader of reform uk ben habib will be here to answer all. the former chancellor of the exchequer, kwasi kwarteng, will also be joining me in the studio. what does he make of michael gove's claim that liz truss will be to blame if the tories lose the election, and top pollster scarlett mccgwire will be here, with the gb news exclusive survey revealing our viewers latest voting intentions at the ballot box. once again, we've got a jam packed 90 minutes of punchy politics ahead this morning, so do not even

think of going anywhere. to go through the sunday papers this morning, i'm delighted to be joined now by my telegraph colleague, annabel denham, who's the deputy comment editor at the newspaper. lovely to see you this morning, annabel. thanks for coming in. thank you. let's get stuck into farage then. so he made these comments to nick robinson in his bbc interview on friday. and he seems to have doubled down in the mail on sunday. he's basically saying that he thinks that although he's blaming putin for the invasion of ukraine and saying it was wrong, he's saying the build up to it was this idea of the eu and the western world flirting with the idea of ukraine joining the bloc and indeed joining nato, which kind of poked the russian bear. that's right, i mean, it's interesting that there's been such a fierce reaction to this.

i'm sure it's something that nigel farage is unfamiliar with, being on the front pages of the newspapers and not for altogether positive reasons. and i think it's understandable that people in the west are quite outraged by his remarks and have accused him of being perhaps a putin sympathiser, or, if not a sympathiser than some kind of appeasen sympathiser than some kind of appeaser, because whilst it's true that the eu was contemplating allowing ukraine into nato or nato was contemplating allowing ukraine in that the european union was contemplating ukrainian membership, i'm not sure that that wholly justifies putin launching an illegal invasion of ukraine a couple of years ago. and if anything, it's actually the pusillanimity from the west, which has emboldened putin and it was the fact that we failed to respond robustly to crimea in 2014, but ultimately, i think we need to remember that putin is an aggressor. he's a tyrant.

yeah, possibly a madman. terrifying prospect. and i'm not sure that we can hold west culpable for his actions. >> it's probably quite trumpian from farage. and in a way, it does invite a kind of nuanced debate about these matters, which i think is welcome, whether it's good politics or not. annabel, i think reform supporters have been doubling down in support of what he said. but he also needs to attract tory voters, moderate conservatives, to his cause if he's going to triumph at the ballot box on july the 4th. i'm not sure whether that's the way to do it, because generally people on the right sort of they're they're motivated by feelings of fairness , and they feelings of fairness, and they will just regard putin as a maniac who wants to take over the western world, or indeed at least at least eastern europe. so i'm not sure whether it sits well with them. >> there's a strategic political reason why the conservative party announced a few months ago that it was going to increase defence spending by the end of the decade. >> i think this is something that matters enormously to

voters on the right, and they want to ensure that the west maintains its strength , and of maintains its strength, and of course, labour have equivocated on matching those defence pledges. so it does seem like a strange manoeuvre from nigel farage. now, you could argue that he's just trying to prompt some kind of debate over our longer term support of zelenskyy, our longer term support of ukraine as this war rages on and on and on, not least if donald trump is elected to the us presidency later this yean to the us presidency later this year, could we see a shift in the us position when it comes to support for ukraine? and perhaps nigel farage feels as though we need to be having a similarly honest discussion here in the uk about what the future holds . but about what the future holds. but nonetheless, i think that the reaction is wholly understandable. now is not the time and you know, interesting intervention during a general election campaign in a foreign country that you do have a zelenskyy or at least a source

in his team making these comments because that's quite extraordinary given the timing. >> farage exactly piled in and said, you know, this is basically apologising for putin. and that comes on the back of starmer and sunak both being unhed starmer and sunak both being united for once in their ed davey and ed davey . they're all davey and ed davey. they're all augned davey and ed davey. they're all aligned in criticising farage for this intervention , let's for this intervention, let's move on to the tories own woes with this betting scandal that goes on and on. i mean, i've headuned goes on and on. i mean, i've headlined this, not another one in the vein of the woman that objected to the second election in 2017. but another tory now this time the campaign, the data, the data strategist for the tories, he's now taken a leave of absence because of this betting scandal. i mean, it's just it's just the wrong look this and we've now got michael gove in the sunday times likening it to a second partygate, which is really helpful from him . helpful from him. >> it's michael gove's response to this. as somebody who is a very adept politician, is really quite extraordinary. it looks like he's throwing his party

under the bus. but, you know, just when you thought that this campaign for the conservatives couldn't plumb any deeper lows, now we've had this, this scandal emerge and it's coming at a time when voter trust in politics has reached all time lows. you know, there's been a complete erosion of trust there and what people must think when they read these stories. now, of course, we're waiting to hear more details. allegations are allegations. we don't know if it was multiple bets placed on multiple days or whether it was multiple bets placed on the same day. not to excuse the behaviour in any way. and we also don't know whether it was the use of privileged information in gambling or whether it represents something like insider trading, which would come with, you know, criminal proceedings. >> that would be much more on your mind if you're in number 10, fighting the most difficult election of your lives . why are election of your lives. why are you even thinking like this? and as you say, annabel, it plays into that whole dialogue around, you know, they're not we can't

relate to them . these people, relate to them. these people, they're not like us. they're out for themselves . it's just such for themselves. it's just such bad comms. >> well, as michael gove said, it's the one wolf of them, one wolf. everybody else. people are absolutely outraged. when partygate erupted, it was really , you know, if you look at the polls, that was the turning point for the conservative party. that was when they fell off a cliff. and they've just simply never been able to recover since. people feel very passionately that the rules ought to apply equally for everyone as well. they should. so, you know, it's no wonder that this , you know, there's that this, you know, there's such a storm around it. and it's immensely frustrating. i think also for number 10, because as they've been, you know, and conservative staff, they've been told that they can't try and get out ahead of the story. they can't speak to the people who are involved. and so ultimately they're just waiting for the reporting to come in and are just trying to be light foot and respond in the best way that they can manage it as new, fresh allegations emerge. >> i mean, rishi sunak did seem justifiably furious when he had to address it in the day, but

debate last week, there's a couple of stories i'm going to roll into one just for time reasons. we've got james cleverly, the home secretary, who's coming on this show in a few minutes time, talking about how labour's eu plan risks 100,000 illegal migrants coming into the country . 100,000 illegal migrants coming into the country. he's 100,000 illegal migrants coming into the country . he's basically into the country. he's basically saying that labour wants to join that eu migrant deal, which kind of shares out different people who have come by boats. among different countries. we've then got a story in the observer talking about how starmer's growth plan is doomed because he doesn't have access to eu markets, and that's a load of left wing economist economists saying, you know, you've got to be back in the single market and the customs union. and then we've got liam fox in the sunday express saying don't trust starmer. he's going to rejoin the european union. i do feel over the course of the last few days that suddenly this idea of brexit being a mistake and the referendum being reversed has bubbled up to the surface. annabel bubbled up to the surface. annabel, have you noticed that? >> yes. >> yes. >> and of course, it's timed with the eight year anniversary of that seminal, seismic, vote that we had in 2016. i mean, all

signs do seem to be pointing to closer ties with the european union . it's coming at quite union. it's coming at quite a strange moment, really, for the labour party. of course, because europe is based on the european elections. yes is shifting drastically to the right . look drastically to the right. look at what's happened in italy with giorgia meloni as prime minister look at what is happening in france with the rise of marine le pen. you've got geert wilders in the netherlands , you've got in the netherlands, you've got the afd in germany. you know, this seems to be this very important shift towards populism, towards the right and yet you've got the labour party, a left wing party here in britain who seem to want to have closer ties. >> i mean, they're denying it's in the manifesto. >> i read it in black and white, or i should say white and red, in that manifesto, you know, no rejoining the eu, no rejoining the single market, no rejoining the single market, no rejoining the customs union. but at the same time, one gets the impression that there will be huge pressure on starmer if he does win power and the keys to number 10 from different elements of his party. david

lammy has spoken quite openly about his desire to realign rachel reeves , talking rachel reeves, talking economically in a kind of very eu friendly way , talking about eu friendly way, talking about chemical deals and breaking down barriers. we've had other talk about breaking down trade barriers and resetting the relationship. they're not going as far as ed davey, but they're getting quite close. >> yes, they certainly are. now, it's interesting really, over the election campaign and then in the labour manifesto, brexit was really one area on which starmer seemed convinced that he wasn't going to budge. and yet, as we've seen so often with the labour leader, there's now some potential jul could be flip flopping. u—turning, certainly some kind of movement in in his position . position. >> and i think there's always movement in his position. exactly >> but i think, you know, this will, as you say, potentially be the first big test of keir starmer's supermajority, if starmer's superm ajority, if indeed starmer's supermajority, if indeed he's going to get, say, 500 seats and he's going to have to unite and keep together various factions within the labour party. perhaps brexit, which really is the dog that hasn't barked during the

campaign, will be the first major issue in which he's going to need to hold his ground, if indeed he wants to. in left wing economists saying that perhaps, you know, our economy would boom were we to re—enter the customs union, were we to re—enter the single market. >> that gdp is down 4% because of brexit. >> and there's a counterargument to that that we can't get into now. but i'm just wondering whether we want to reopen this can of worms. annabel. >> well, i think it's also predicated on the idea that we'd get a better deal. yes. what incentive is there for the european union to offer the uk something which isn't membership , but which gives us all of the perks, if not more? i think we have to accept that in addition to all the time and energy and resource that would need to go into renegotiating with the european union, the outcome is highly unlikely to be better than what we had in 2019. so, we've got about 30s left. >> no, i know it's gone so quickly, but we just want to ooh and over the selfie of taylor swift and the prince of wales and his children, prince george and his children, prince george and princess charlotte, it's very sweet this. and you made a

point in the green room. just speak as mums. yes. it's lovely for these children to have had a lovely night out with their father because of what's been going on with their mother. >> absolutely. and what a wonderful photo it is. just ear to ear grins from the cambridge children and what they must have been through over the last months, with their mother being so unwell, and how wonderful it was to see her at trooping the colour. just a couple of weeks ago, and perhaps royal trouper herself turning point exactly for annabel. >> it always runs out too quickly, especially when you're so well informed. so thank you very much indeed for your contribution. this morning. as i said, we've got a lot more still to come. i'm going to be speaking to the home secretary, james cleverly. i can see kwasi kwarteng now, who's about to come into the studio to discuss the tories election campaign, and we'll be speaking to labour's bridget phillipson about their plan to put vat on school fees. lots to come. don't go

welcome back to gb news you're watching the camilla tominey show. i'm delighted to be joined now by former chancellor kwasi kwarteng, who's in the studio with me. kwasi, where shall we begin? hello. nice to see you. we'll begin on farage. >> yeah. why? no. what do you think? >> i think this putin thing is very bad for him. because he presents himself as a normal guy . man in the pub with a beer. and this is quite cranky stuff to say. somehow the west were responsible for putin's act of aggression. >> i mean, let'sjust let's aggression. >> i mean, let's just let's not take him out of context. he's he has sort of clarify, but also doubled down today in the mail on sunday, he's given that interview to the political edhon interview to the political editor, glen owen. and he said, look, i think putin's invasion was wrong and deplorable. but at the same time , the west must the same time, the west must take some responsibility . and take some responsibility. and he's not just saying that the west was asleep at the wheel after crimea. he's also saying that all of that talk in the eu about ukraine membership and indeed nato membership. by

ukraine, i mean , that would mean ukraine, i mean, that would mean that nato takes on putin in the event of an invasion. >> so that's wrong. >> so that's wrong. >> the point that, nigel makes, which is true everyone agrees with, is that ukraine was a sovereign country. okay. so if it's a sovereign country, it can join any alliance that it wants. and so this idea that somehow we, the west were poking the beanl we, the west were poking the bear, i think is straight out of vladimir putin's talking points. yeah and it gives him a justification which he doesn't have. what he did was illegal and wrong. nigel acknowledges that. and that's that's the end of the story, the idea that somehow the west are as culpable or somehow responsible for his illegal acts. i think, is wrong. >> so you're saying it's cranky? it's sort of i think it is a little bit. >> i mean, if you look at the people in europe who who support putin or who express admiration for him, these are often very hard, right parties. you know, people like viktor orban, people like marine le pen. >> well, people like donald trump, i guess , and i don't trump, i guess, and i don't think, i don't think even donald trump has blamed the west in the

way that that or fingered the west for responsibility in the way that nigel did. >> and i think a lot of voters who were interested in what he was had to say will be thinking, hang on a sec. this is a bit bizarre. this is a bit cranky. i don't quite i'm not quite comfortable. yeah. with with giving my support to this man and his party. and i think that, well, let's let's see. i think that they might well have peaked reform. i don't want to predict that. no, but i don't i don't see how he's winning more voters by saying that somehow the west is responsible for putin's aggression. >> i mean, obviously he's rising in the polls. and i'm going to speak to scarlett mccgwire of jl partners later in the show just to discuss where reform are at and where they could peak, and whether they'll stay there. you know, if they get a vote share beginning with a two, that's a big problem. that's a massive problem for how have the tories let this happen. >> yeah. >> yeah. no >> yeah. no i >> yeah. no i mean >> yeah. no i mean i >> yeah. no i mean i think >> yeah. no i mean i think it's but the biggest problem i mean, we were going into this campaign, we thought that, you know, the tories were under pressure, but now that farage, you know, they're only about 11% when the election was called. yeah. now they're rising up to

sort of 16, 17. that's hugely damaging over 20 in a couple of polls. yes. and so i think if they get anywhere near that, you'll see lots of tory seats . you'll see lots of tory seats. >> tory mps, according to michael gove, this is all your fault . you and liz truss. let's fault. you and liz truss. let's just get the quote here. the housing secretary said the chances of re—election had taken a bit of a knock because of the former prime minister's disastrous mini—budget. he refused to name mistrust, but instead referred to the period between boris and rishi, which is when you were charged. that's right . right. >> so look, look. >> so look, look. >> no, i think i think obviously if there is a defeat, blame will be apportioned to lots of different people. >> right. so you're preparing your team hat, are you? >> yeah, absolutely. but this idea that rishi sunak could call the election when he did, when no one was expecting it, least of all the party, it would appean of all the party, it would appear, who has been front and centre of the campaign, under whom reform have risen to nearly 20. yeah. the idea that he had nothing to do with any of that is wrong. so when i left office, i was just checking out the polls just now, reform were on

about 4. yeah. i think when liz truss left in october 2022, there were 4 or 5. and now they're on 17. yeah. and for michael gove to farage hadn't decided to kind of commit fully to the party when you were. >> obviously. >> obviously. >> that's true. >> that's true. >> but i'm saying that all of this has happened. >> so what are you saying to me if he loses badly and the conservative party ends up being destroyed, it's rishi sunak's fault. >> look, i'm trying to be nuanced. >> you can't blame. >> you can't blame. >> you can't put 100% of the blame on him. >> well, how much blame would you put on it? but he's clearly he's clearly the leader. if you if you suffer a massive defeat, clearly the leader is very much responsible for that. >> i mean, what proportion? i don't know, obviously there were other mistakes done by other leaders, but it's. >> but he is the he. >> but he is the he. >> and also what's so bizarre is that he called the time of the election. we wouldn't be talking about this. >> is that a mistake? july the 4th i think it was. >> i could see why he did it, but as it turned out, it looks like it might could well backfire because green shoots are being seen kwasi. >> yeah. that's right. and the inflation deflation. >> exactly. and the fact that he

didn't let that bed in was his call. >> but he's then going to end up with a much worse legacy than liz truss, isn't he. >> well, liz wasn't there very long, frankly. yeah. >> but the legacy of rishi sunak if these seat projections are true, i mean, first of all, do you think that the tories could be reduced at the worst estimate? >> it was the savanta poll for the telegraph in the week 53. >> i don't believe that. i don't believe that. >> where do you think they might end up? >> i mean, i don't have a crystal ball, nor have i put a bet on this. no, i don't have any inside information. >> before we go on to betting, though, if his legacy ends up being the complete annihilation of the conservative party, it's not a good legacy. >> it's going to make. it's not a good lettuce look. well, you know, like a good addition to the fridge. >> well, look, there'll be there'll be lots of recriminations if we do lose that badly, there'll be lots of debate. people will be blaming each other. everyone will be blaming everyone else. but the leader has to take responsibility. the leader of the party has to take some responsibility. >> does he have to take responsibility vicariously for this betting fiasco? i mean, what you've worked inside number

10 and number 11. what in earth is going on when you've got senior tory people prioritising making a few quid on the side, allegedly by placing wagers rather than fighting for their political life? >> very bizarre. >> very bizarre. >> i thought it was very childish, very juvenile and not serious . yeah, and also serious. yeah, and also incredibly stupid because, i mean, how did they not think there might be caught? >> but are people inside number 10 juvenile and childish and stupid? >> not generally. i think a lot of it is driven by the leadership, the culture. what do you mean by that? >> well, lots of rishi fanboys and i'm old fashioned. yeah. >> harry truman used to have a sign on his desk when he was president. the buck stops here. yes. i think there's a sense in which. and i said this about boris. i've said this about liz, the leader, whoever that is, bears ultimate responsibility for what happens under their watch. and sometimes it might be unfair. maybe he didn't know what was going on. but as the leader of an organisation, your , leader of an organisation, your, character, your job is to impose some sort of discipline on the on the on the institution . and

on the on the institution. and if things go wrong, ultimately, i know it's an old fashioned view and people don't really subscribe to it anymore. but ultimately, i think the leader bears responsibility for what's going on. >> but do you think that there are too many people in number 10 or around the prime minister who have sort of drunk the kool—aid and can't, i don't know, i mean, objective advice? >> well, look, i mean, there have been there have been some blunders. let's let's face it. and he's admitted to them, i mean, the d—day business. yes, was something that he, he, he put his hand up and said, look, i got it wrong. this was this was a mistake. and i don't know who was advising him on that. so this isn't the first time that people around the prime minister have have not, not a tory colleague saying to you because obviously you're not standing. >> no, you're going to do something differently. do something differently. do something differently. do something different come july the 5th. but other people are standing. i mean, what are they saying to you? >> i think it's very challenging. >> i think it's very challenging because each time we, we, we take a step forward, locally, it seems that we're taking two steps back with various blunders and mistakes. i think as time

progresses, we're in the last ten days, 12 days of the campaign. my hope and expectation is that some of that reform vote will be squeezed. i think people will look at the labour proposition and the conservative, proposition , and conservative, proposition, and then many of them will vote conservative. >> so i think there's some shy conservatism going on. i think there is a bit of that pollsters or their friends that they're going to vote tory. >> i think there is a bit of that, so do you think the polls are going to narrow a little bit? >> i hope so, and i expect that to be the case. but let's see. and we've been expecting that for weeks and it hasn't happened. >> what should sunak do now with the last 12 days of this campaign? because alexander downer, who i know you're familiar with, was in last week or the week before, basically saying all of this blue on blue attack and taking on reform is a waste of time. just fire your guns on starmer. talk about him wanting to reverse the referendum. talk about hidden taxes, stealth taxes. just open fire on this guy and his party and his policies. >> do you agree with i think they've got to go after labour

because if you try and go after reform, in a way you're sort of validating and you're you're keeping reform in the headlines. >> i think the line that there are only two people plausibly who can be prime minister after july the 5th, keir starmer on one side, rishi sunak on the other. and i think it's the job of the conservative party and particularly the candidate, rishi sunak, to really focus his attention, trying to dismantle what labour and labour. the tncky what labour and labour. the tricky thing is labour haven't said anything much. >> no, they're just going to walk into a supermajority but also , why are tories still also, why are tories still talking about the idea that they can win this? they can't, can they? >>i they? >> i think it's difficult, but stranger things have happened. >> i mean, look, that's an understatement. >> but i remember being traumatised by the 2017 general election when that election was called, we were projected to have 150 majority. yeah. and in the end we lost our majority. so that's really informed my, reluctance to make to make predictions. it reluctance to make to make predictions . it does look predictions. it does look difficult. it does look challenging, but we're going to have to just wait and see. >> all right? it's somebody's going to be embarrassed on the morning of july the 5th, it's

either going to be rishi sunak or it's going to be pollsters. >> perhaps. >> perhaps. >> i think the pollsters, will will, will face a lots of questions if they get it wrong. >> all right. kwasi, i know you're with us over the course of the election coverage on gb news, so we'll no doubt be speaking again. thank you very much. coming up, as i've said, i'm going to be joined by the home secretary, james cleverly, and i'm also going to be speaking to shadow education secretary bridget phillipson about that plan to slap vat on private school fees. i'm going to be asking her whether it's going to prompt an exodus into state schools. don't go anywhere. be back in two.

welcome back. much more to come in the next hour. i'm going to be joined by the home secretary, james cleverly. in just a minute . i'm going to also be joined by the shadow education secretary, bridget phillipson. but first, here's the news with tatiana sanchez.

>> camila thank you. the top stories this morning. the conservative party continues to be beset by a scandal around betting on the date of the general election, before it became publicly known, the conservative party's chief data officer, nick mason, has taken a leave of absence, according to reports, amid claims he placed bets on the timing of the general election. the tories director of campaigns, tony leigh, and his wife laura saunders , are also being probed, saunders, are also being probed, as is the prime minister's parliamentary private secretary, craig williams, who's admitted to an error of judgement . in to an error of judgement. in other news, the labour leader has suggested that benefits offer less dignity to people than earning a living through work . sir keir starmer took aim work. sir keir starmer took aim at handouts from the states in a piece for the sunday telegraph, sir keir added serving the interests of working people means understanding they want success more than state support. his changed stance on welfare comes as the latest savanta opinion poll in the telegraph

newspaper today shows labour retaining its electoral lead over the conservative party. that poll has labour on 42% of the vote, and the conservative party on 19. a search operation in tenerife for a missing british teenager has now entered its seventh day. jay slater went missing after he travelled for a music festival to the spanish island on what was his first houday island on what was his first holiday without his parents. his mother issued a direct plea to her son yesterday, saying we just need you home. and just before jay went missing on monday, the 19 year old called a friend, saying he was lost and needed water. former head of lambeth missing persons unit mike neville told gb news this morning time is running thin. >> this area of tenerife is quite wooded and so there's so many places that somebody could have laid down to rest or take shelter, and it's not so visible from the air. so whilst the

spanish police are making use of helicopters and drones, they're really reliant on human eyes. so either the police officers, volunteers or part rangers and dogs to try and locate jay slater, though , and flights slater, though, and flights departing from manchester airport are facing cancellations and severe delays after a power cut in the area. >> it's understood the power issue has also affected a number of other buildings near to the airport terminals one and two are severely affected, while terminal three is reportedly still running. there are reports that power is back on, but the impact will affect services throughout the day. as the airport gets back up and running . for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen, or go to gbnews.com slash alerts. now it's back to camila . now it's back to camila. >> thank you tatiana. welcome

back to the camilla tominey show. lots more still to come on the show in just a minute. i'm going to be speaking to the home secretary, james cleverly. i'll be asking him about the tories rather difficult election campaign. is there any hope for them on july the 4th, i'll also be speaking to the shadow education secretary, bridget phillipson, to ask her about labour's plan to put vat on private school fees. and i'll be joined by the joint deputy leader of reform uk, ben habib, to discuss reform leader nigel farage's recent comments about putin and scarlett mccgwire. jl partners pollster, will be here with an exclusive poll that reveals the latest gb news viewers voting intentions. but first, home secretary james cleverly joins me now. home secretary , lovely to see you secretary, lovely to see you this morning. thank you very much indeed for your time. what's your reaction to nigel farage's claims about the west and those in the eu being in part to blame for putin's invasion of ukraine? >> well, i was at the nato russia council before russias full scale invasion of ukraine, and the russian delegation were

were putting out all this propaganda about how they had been provoked. these are putin's justifications. and to have a british voice echoing those justifications, i think, is completely wrong. the sad truth, of course, is that from a reform candidates across the country, we've seen a whole range of really inappropriate comments, including calling into question churchill's resolute defiance of nazism, saying that somehow churchill should have appeased hitler and the truth of the matter is, people are increasingly beginning to understand that this is not necessarily a party that shares its values , and that even if its values, and that even if they did vote for reform, what it would most likely do is hold the door open for a large labour majority with all that comes with that. >> okay, but didn't isn't he right in suggesting the western world was asleep at the wheel on this? i mean, it was only in

2012 that david cameron was bringing putin along to the judo at the london olympics 2013. we had the g8 with russia included. the following year he invaded crimea . crimea. >> well, the point is there is a strong track record of western leaders and western countries trying to bring russia into the, into the fold, as it were, to try and show russia and russians that there was a peaceful, prosperous future for them time and time again. now we've seen putin reject the peaceful , more putin reject the peaceful, more prosperous options, and he's waged conflict in ukraine, in russian troops in georgia , russian troops in georgia, russian troops in georgia, russian troops in georgia, russian troops in, in other countries around eastern europe . countries around eastern europe. and to suggest somehow that those countries brought it upon themselves, i think, is victim blaming of the worst order. >> okay, i can hear you

competing with how great thou art in the background there home secretary. so thank you very much indeed. you've got a little chorus accompanying this interview this morning. him, by the way , i was going to ask you the way, i was going to ask you about this whole situation with this tory betting scandal. we've now got another person implicated. implicated? nick mason, the chief data officer, i've had kwasi kwarteng in the studio saying some of the people that seem to be embroiled in this, and i appreciate they're only allegations at this stage, but what they do is they indicate a lack of seriousness at the heart of number 10, you know, you're fighting for your electoral life. we've got people allegedly sort of more concerned about whether they can make a few quid on the side. michael gove has said it's another partygate. he's not wrong, is he? >> well, look, i'm at a disadvantage because we've got clear instructions from the gambling commission that we should not be discussing this. we should not be discussing individuals, we should not be discussing what's going on. so i'm very limited in what i can

say. my view has always been the case that people in government should focus on delivering for the people of this country, people who are officials of the party should be focused on returning as many conservative mps as possible, so we can form a government so that we can serve the british people and anything other than that is inappropriate. so whilst i'm not going to discuss any of the details, people should focus exclusively on the people we're here to serve. >> you must be very angry about it. i mean, we could tell the prime minister was furious in his tv debate last week . his tv debate last week. >> yeah. and i, i share the prime minister's views on this. as i say, i we've got instructions from the gambling commission that we should not be discussing it, which limits limits very much. what i can say about this, but my view has always been, as i say, very, very simple. we're here to serve the british people. and anyone

not doing that to the fullest of their abilities, is wrong . very wrong. >> let's discuss something that you can certainly talk about because you've written about it today in the sunday telegraph. home secretary , you've talked home secretary, you've talked about the risk from labour opening the door to 100,000 migrants. you're talking about them joining that eu pact on migrants. but at the same time, won't people watching and listening to this interview think, god, he's got a bit of brass neck. you've let in thousands of illegal migrants by dinghy across the channel, haven't you ? haven't you? >> well , haven't you? >> well, stopping the boats, fighting those people smuggling gangsis fighting those people smuggling gangs is incredibly hard. they're brutal. but also they have adapted their tactics . and have adapted their tactics. and of course, i am determined to continue doing everything i can to stop the boats. that's why we have a cross border organisation, the small boats operation command , commanded by operation command, commanded by a former british army general. that's why we have immigration enforcement who actually, send

people back to their home countries every week, dozens of people get deported every week. and we have the rwanda scheme, which is about that deterrent. so we are doing all of those things and more . the labour things and more. the labour party are claiming they are going to do less . they're going going to do less. they're going to scrap the veranda scheme. their big announcement was the creation of a was it a border command which already exists and a returned unit which already exists. so they're claiming they are going to do less in the hope that they're going to achieve more. it'sjust that they're going to achieve more. it's just not credible. it's not easy. and no one is pretending it is. but the labour's position on this and this deal that they would do with the eu , which saw us as with the eu, which saw us as a net recipient previously, but they deny that they're doing that deal more people rather than less. >> labour says they've ruled out doing that deal. >> are they lying? but no. >> are they lying? but no. >> kie . >> kie. >> kie. >> starmer made a series of explicit commitments to the

labour party when he ran for leadership, and he ditched every single one of them. he campaigned tirelessly to make jeremy corbyn prime minister and then claimed he didn't really mean it. >> the simple fact of the matter is, are you in a position the labour party would now? >> the labour party would be soft on immigration and they will ramp up taxes and they will cut a deal with eu, which will see us being brought back into the gravitational pull of the european union and be the net recipient , european union and be the net recipient, as i european union and be the net recipient , as i say, of 100,000 migrants. >> but home secretary, with the greatest respect, you haven't got a leg to stand on, on broken promises, have you? the conservatives have been promising the electorate that they would bring down immigration, legal and illegal, since 2010. you've been promising that for 14 years, and you've never delivered on the promise . so this is why people promise. so this is why people are supporting reform. you say a vote for reform is a vote for laboun vote for reform is a vote for labour. the electorate is saying a vote for reform is a vote to bnng a vote for reform is a vote to bring immigration legal and

illegal, down because the conservatives are seemingly incapable of doing it. >> well, i was made home secretary in the autumn of last yean secretary in the autumn of last year, and i immediately took action to bring down legal migration. those numbers are now coming down. 300,000 people who would previously have had the right to be here no longer have the right to be here through legal migration routes , i took legal migration routes, i took action to make sure foreign students were not allowed to bnng students were not allowed to bring family members. that is already in place. i took that action. it came into force of january of this year, and i am making sure that those flights to rwanda are ready to go shortly after the general election. if a conservative government is returned. and the fact is that political parties, whether it be reform or any others , it's easy to point at others, it's easy to point at things that we don't like. that's the easy bit. doing something about it is more challenging and they don't have answers. and the main reason why

they don't have answers, of course, is because even at the most optimistic end of the polling spectrum, they are envisaged to maybe get up to three, four, maybe five members of parliament, tops. but in doing so would hand labour a huge majority and labour voted against border control 130 times. keir starmer took the knee rather than backing the police officers during blm, keir starmer tried to make jeremy corbyn, who heralded anti—semitism in the labour party, into number 10. that is what a vote for reform will inevitably do to our country. and i will fight tooth and nail until 10:00 on the 4th of july to prevent that from happening . to prevent that from happening. >> isn't there something a bit disingenuous about that position 7 disingenuous about that position ? the people that have really handed labour the prospect of a supermajority party are the conservatives, because they failed to deliver on their manifesto pledges. you said immigration would come down. it's gone up. you said tax and vat would come down. it's gone up. so why can't you just be honest? you're talking about

broken promises by starmer and that's fair enough. maybe you've got a point. but the problem for the conservatives and why people are flocking to reform or just not bothering to come out, is that they don't believe you. when you make these pledges, you do understand that surely home secretary . secretary. >> since we had our last manifesto, we have had two. once in a century events back to back. we had covid, which was an event of such magnitude that no one could have predicted. we deau one could have predicted. we dealt with. it actually by international comparisons pretty well. we also had russia's brutal invasion of ukraine and the impact that that had on fuel prices, on inflation. we have taken action to bring inflation back down to 2. we've started cutting taxes for working people because that is in our dna. that is what, of course, why aren't the polls moving then? the only opposition ? look, i can't i, opposition? look, i can't i, i can only do what i can do and candidates can only do what candidates can only do what candidates can only do what candidates can do, which is

continue to take the message to the british people . we are the british people. we are determined to protect them from labour tax cuts. we are determined to protect our borders and bring down immigration. and we've started doing both of those labour would reverse all of those things, and the simple truth is, i get the frustration. i share the frustration. i share the frustration . of course, all of frustration. of course, all of us in government would wish to have achieved more, but there were some unprecedented events which which put barriers in our way. but we are absolutely determined to continue to bring down, taxes as we've started to do, continue to bring down immigration as we've started to do and protect the british people from the disaster. that would be a labour government led by a man who has been so inconsistent , not even to by a man who has been so inconsistent, not even to his own party, that we cannot take for granted any of the things that he has said. >> but, home secretary, do you think i had alexander downer in the studio last week saying that

you're concentrating too much on blue, on blue, and you're criticising reform? what you actually need to do is take the gloves off and actually rishi sunak been a bit too. queensberry rules with keir starmer that you should just go heavily in attack mode now you've got 12 days left to save this. can the campaign be saved for the tories ? for the tories? >> well, there are, i think , a >> well, there are, i think, a lot of people who haven't decided how they're going to vote. and when i speak to on the speak to people on the doorstep, they are clearly very uncomfortable with the prospect of a labour government. they are very uncomfortable with keir starmers inconsistencies. i don't think that it is about personal attacks. i don't think that's what olive oliver dowden was saying, but what we are going to do is continue to highlight the risk of a labour government to the to, to the, to the, economics of this country, to the social cohesion of this country. and we are also going

to highlight the fact that if you don't want that labour government , then the most government, then the most credible way of making sure that we don't have that economic incompetence is at the heart of a labour government is to vote conservative at this election. and that's the message i will continue to put out. i'll also put out our positive, alternative as well. all right. >> home secretary james cleverly, lovely to speak to you this morning. thank you so much for your time. thank you , in for your time. thank you, in just a minute, i will get the reaction to that interview from shadow education secretary bridget phillipson. i'll be asking her as well, when bridget phillipson. i'll be asking her as well , when exactly asking her as well, when exactly labour plans to put that on private school fees. stay

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. bridget phillipson is in the studio. the woman hoping to be the next education secretary. lovely to

see you. especially in the flesh. always to best do interviews. and we can see each other because we're often looking at each other down the camera lens. let's speak. first of all, it's you. labour has released an interesting press released an interesting press release today, quoting pat mcfadden, who's sort of spearheading the labour campaign. so saying that this talk of a supermajority isn't quite right, are you mistrusting the polling and suggesting that labour aren't as ahead, or you're worried about people not turning out for labour? what's all this about? >> so polls are a snapshot in time, but there is huge variation in terms of the outcomes that different pools are pointing to. and we know that there are lots of voters right across the country that haven't made their minds up and are still thinking about how to vote, and that's certainly been my experience out knocking on doors in a lot of our battleground seats. and what we're seeing is that if people want change, they've got to go out and vote for it. the tories want people to think that this is a done deal and it really isn't, and pulls me nothing. the only poll that matters is when people cast their votes on the 4th of july. >> for us, for you to be saying,

yeah, the trouble with the tories is that they're saying it's a done deal, that we will win. i mean, it's when we look at these mrp polls and one of them for the telegraph, you will have seen it last week. savanta did the polling suggesting that the tories will be reduced to 53 seats and labour would have a supermajority of 516. i mean, what's your reaction to that? >> i mean, others say wildly different things. we know that there are, you know, a significant proportion of voters who haven't made their minds up. and in 175 seats, different polling points to the fact that those seats are just too close to call. so they could go either way. it could well be 100, a couple of hundred votes in either direction. that could shape the outcome of that. and i'd just say if people want to turn a page and all the chaos and division that we've had over the last 14 years, then they have to vote for it. they have to make it happen. it's not enough just to will it? >> okay, let's get into the private school fees vat thing because as you know, i've spoken to your colleagues about this at length over the course of recent weeks and months. first of all, can you give any clarity on when this policy will kick in? because there was a little bit

of reporting in the week saying it won't happen for this academic year, it's more likely to be in a budget, maybe next yean to be in a budget, maybe next year, and apply till to the september 2025 to 26 term. so this has been our policy for some years. >> so rachel reeves first announced this in 2021. so we have given ample notice as to the policy shift that we want to make happen. we would want to move quickly on this. we'd want to make sure that these measures are in our first budget. but these are all questions for the chancellor, and we don't prejudge that. we've got an election to fight and win. these are about parliamentary timing, about measures within the budget. but we would start from day one, making sure that we are on track to recruit more teachers, to make sure that our children in state schools are getting the support that they deserve. and that's why, for me, this is an important policy. i completely respect the rights of parents to opt to send their children to a private school. i just think that at the moment, our state schools are under a lot of pressure and need additional support. >> but this is the argument, and we did speak to emily thornberry about it, and she conceded that she thought that some classroom sizes would have to get bigger to accommodate what is predicted to accommodate what is predicted to be an exodus of private

school pupils into the state sector. so on one hand, you're arguing state schools are under arguing state schools are under a lot of pressure and we need more teachers. but the counterargument to that is if private schools end up a closing down and we've seen evidence of two of them doing so, citing the vat thing as one of the reasons. and we see a pupil exodus from private to state. you're going to have a problem with state schools being oversubscribed even more oversubscribed than they are now. >> so just going back to the first point, i mean, i'm afraid what emily said was was wrong and i don't i don't accept that, not least because at the moment in primary schools, for example, we've got over 600,000 spare places. it's over 400,000 within secondary schools. so we're seeing falling pupil numbers . seeing falling pupil numbers. the birth rate has fallen. we'll have fewer children coming through our state school. >> so what point are you saying that class sizes will not get bigger? even if. and it's the ifs, because i know you are saying, oh, it's lobby groups on behalf of private schools as talking about this exodus. hang on. let's be really clear. the ifs , which is an independent

ifs, which is an independent body, has suggested that there could be an exodus of up to 40,000 private school pupils. let's be really conservative with a small c and say it's only 5 to 10,000. they're still going to have to be accommodated somewhere. so what the i if some areas there are pinch points i get what you mean about the national picture. we've done some research in the telegraph today, and it's suggesting that there's going to be a big surge for places in parts of london and the south east. i know from where i live in hertfordshire, the schools are already oversubscribed, the state schools. >> so this process of schools seeking to merge and close has already begun under the conservatives because of the falling birth rate that we're seeing. i would say where it comes to the institute for fiscal studies and the work they've set out around this. what they concluded is they would anticipate limited impact and that they say that our plans would raise 1.3 to £15 billion net. that's taking account of any behaviour change. but the figure that they use, where it comes to the potential for movement, which they say they don't believe will be big, is over the medium term. so it's not a case of those children being withdrawn from private schools. it's that parents over

the medium term might consider whether or not to opt for a private school in the first place. i support the rights of parents to choose where to best educate their children. i just think in a time of limited resources where we don't have enough, say, maths teachers within our state schools, we need to focus our efforts on making sure that we're delivering the resources that state schools need, also around mental health support, to where we would pay for that through the policy support. >> but has labour given any thought to the mental health of private school pupils whose parents can't afford the fees and they have to be taken out of the school they love with all of their friends and be put somewhere else? is any consideration being given to their mental health, or is labour just their mental health, or is labourjust interested in the labour just interested in the mental health of state school pupils? >> i care about all children. of course i do. >> well, let's talk about the personal impact on those private school kids. >> yeah, i would say that private schools should seek to make efficiencies and manage their budgets. so those costs are not passed on. >> they've got cost of living crisis. you've been banging on about it for months. >> they've been whacking up their fees for years. they've been whacking up their fees for years. and actually the number

of with what labour has accused liz truss of perpetuating, which is a crash of the economy. >> you've said that liz truss has nearly bankrupted britain. there's no money left. so if schools have had to put up their fees, why have they had to do that? they've had to put up their fees because they've had to cope with cost of living crisis and increased energy bills. they've had to put up their fees to cope with increases in teacher and pension payments, which have been precipitated by your union paymasters. >> they've been whacking up their fees beyond inflation fun for more than a decade. but why do you think i think that? because they're in a competitive market and they're seeking to attract parents. so in some cases they've been hit by the cost of living crisis as well. so they've been engaged in it often a competitive process where they've been involved in an arms race, for example, around sports provision or other capital investment. they're businesses. they can choose how they invest their money. but this is a competitive market where parents, if they're looking at private schools, have a range of different options that are available to them. i just say to private schools, maybe have a word with state schools who've had to manage them pretty tight budgets in recent years and have managed to do everything they to can try

and keep things on the road. i think private schools can cut their cloth, frankly, and i think eton can cope. >> but if you look at one of the schools down in prep that's forced with closure for a third of its pupils, are special educational needs. there are some private schools, which i think in fact, the majority of private schools only have 300 pupils or less. you'll be familiar with them as shadow education secretary. you know, the state system doesn't always fit for kids who have got complex special educational needs dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, adhd and other conditions autism. sometimes they can't be in mainstream . they can't be in mainstream. their parents are already struggling to look after them. there having to pay. and now you're saying add 20% onto your fees even though you're probably in the just about managing squeezed middle category. they're not like the parents of people who send their kids to eton, are they? >> look, i know the system where it comes to support for children with special educational needs and disabilities isn't working as it should. the current government know that they've said it's broken, that it's lose, lose, lose. so i am determined to reform it. but where it comes to children who

are placed within an independent school because their education, health and care plan has stipulated that that's where their needs can best be met, then we will make sure there is no increase there. so where it comes to children with education, health and care plans, no additional costs, but i would just say more widely the vast majority of children in our country go to state schools. the vast majority of your viewers will be sent in their children to state schools. and i think it is my responsibility, if i were education secretary, to have a focus there on driving up standards right across the board, making sure that we've got fantastic teachers at the front of the classroom, that our our schools are well supported and that young people are getting the help they need around their mental health. and that does involve a political choice. and that is why we have set out our plans to end the tax breaks that private schools enjoy. i think it's only right and fair. i don't think those tax breaks can be justified. >> is the ultimate aim. angela rayner spoke to this several years ago to close private schools. i just asked that because there's an interesting story in the sunday times talking about the private education policy forum, which has advised labour in the past, andifs

has advised labour in the past, and it's basically saying that, you know, if private schools close down, then we can convert them to state schools. is that them to state schools. is that the ultimate aim? no. >> i respect the rights of parents to choose where best to educate their children. if that is a private school, that's absolutely what they should be able to choose. i know that parents want the best for their children. nothing will come in the way of that. and i, you know, just to be clear, that group isn't is not advising laboun group isn't is not advising labour. i will meet with a wide range of individuals, but they are not actively advising on policy advised. >> in the past, i think perhaps i wouldn't know, but certainly not. >> not in, not in, not in my time as shadow education secretary. >> no, it was more under corbyn, i think. to be fair, you're saying it started with rachel reeves, but this whole vat plan started under corbyn and you didn't support corbyn, presumably because you thought some of his ideas were a bit too left wing extremist. >> well, we parted company on a range of different areas. but jeremy, you know, jeremy corbyn in the past, we're looking to the future. he has turned the labour party around. >> all right. talking of the future, then maybe you can clarify a few things on this tax issue. we've been dancing on the head of a pin about what labour

will tax, who they will tax. we know who you won't tax. you're not going to tax working people. we know you are going to tax people who pay private school fees. non—doms energy companies. the big questions are are you going to tax wealthy people when you get into power? are you going to tax people on the basis of their assets and their property? are you going to increase cgt and indeed, are council tax bands going to be changed? can you give us any indication of that? because i think the audience really needs to know how much more tax they'll pay under labour, even if they are a working person. >> so what rachel reeves, our shadow chancellor has been clear aboutis shadow chancellor has been clear about is that we are not interested in always just going to the tax rises. leave it. we've had a lot of that under the conservatives. it's why taxes are at the highest rate in 70 years at all. we do. we we've set out all we've set out that we will not increase vat. national insurance contributions or income tax. that's ironclad. it's in our manifesto. >> there could be other stealth taxes. >> what we're focused on is growth. we've got to grow our economy and making sure we can then alleviate the pressures that working people are facing. we can invest more in our public

services. if our economy had grown even in line with the oecd average in recent years, we would have a lot more money to invest in our public services. it's because we've been out a wealth tax. we're not interested in a wealth tax, no. and we have property tax . same with all of property tax. same with all of these questions. that is not where our instincts are . that is where our instincts are. that is not what we're interested in. and we have a focus on growth, an increase in cgt capital gains. we have no plans, no interest in that. what we're focused on is growing our economy council tax on all of these measures. absolutely, because working people have seen their taxes rise again and again. we know it's been really unfair and has been punishing on working people in the middle of a cost of living crisis. >> are you ruling out completely or just >> are you ruling out completely orjust saying no plans to? >> we have been. we've set out the main measures where there will be no changes. for example, income tax, national insurance. that's really clear income tax clear is whether you are ruling out the other taxes i've mentioned or just saying we've no plans to at the moment. >> nothing. and that's two different things. nothing in our manifesto requires us to make any additional tax changes.

>> everything within that is fully funded and fully costed, so people can have confidence when they see our manifesto that all of the measures, all of the additional changes that we're setting out, have got a plan behind them. the measures that you've identified, that ruling them out completely or just saying no plans at the moment. i don't think rachel reeves would be very happy with me if i wrote five years worth of her budgets on your programme this morning, but i can tell you that she's not interested. she's i can tell you she's not interested in tax increases. that is not her. it's growth that we want to get in our economy that opens up opportunities. >> not interested isn't ruling out, but it is no plan at the moment. >> well, growth is what it's got to be about growing our economy. that's what we're focused on. >> bridget phillipson, so lovely to see you in the studio. thank you very much indeed. thank you. thank you. right. well, coming up next, i'm going to be joined by ben habib, who is the deputy leader of reform uk. i'm going to be asking him about nigel farage's rather inflammatory comments about vladimir putin. don't go anywhere.

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. ben habib is in the studio. he's the joint deputy leader of reform uk. lovely to see you. thank you very much for coming in physically, because i know you've been busy on the campaign trail. >> lovely to be here. >> lovely to be here. >> let's talk about nigel farage. i mean, he's this he's the person we're all talking about who isn't talking about while i know, but is all pubuchy while i know, but is all publicity good publicity, ben? because this interview is given to the bbc's nick robinson in basically saying, you know, we've provoked this war. of course it's his fault, but we've also provoked it because of this idea of expansion of nato and the european union to ukraine. i mean, the obvious question is, is he a useful idiot for putin or just is he a useful idiot for putin orjust an apologist and an appeaser? >> well, he's he's neither. i mean, what nigel was doing was pointing out some basic facts. you know, we tend to see, ukraine particularly and many

foreign, policy foreign interventions in black and white terms. and a lot of this is nuanced. and, you know, in 2013, the eu was offering association membership to the ukraine. it was offering them ,10 billion worth of funding if they came and joined. >> but ukraine is a sovereign nation. >> they can do what they like and, and in the end, yanukovych actually declined the eu's advances. and he decided to sign advances. and he decided to sign a deal with russia and then there was the rioting on the streets. yanukovych was deposed . streets. yanukovych was deposed. and you got an an interim leader, and all of a sudden crimea was invaded. >> so there's clearly that kind of eu interference is what he's talking about. yeah. >> i mean, i think the eu, by the way, i mean, let'sjust >> i mean, i think the eu, by the way, i mean, let's just talk about the eu with russia has been all over the place. so it flirted with ukraine. >> okay. to be fair. >> okay. to be fair. >> well, much less so you know, we are much more determined in our cameron was taking putin to the judo in 2012. >> yeah that is true. >> yeah that is true. >> david cameron should be nowhere near the office of secretary of state for foreign affairs say nigel farage should

be nowhere near. >> but can i just to number 10, can i just talk about the eu proper in chat. >> can i just talk about the eu? the eu was there for offering up membership to ukraine and at the same time, at the same time, germany was busy bypassing ukraine, building nord stream. do you remember nord stream? yeah, which is a direct. >> can i just say though, that what? i get your point. the one reason why these options were being given to ukraine is because, like most eastern european nations, funnily enough, they were worried about a russian invasion . how do you a russian invasion. how do you think estonia and other countries in that area are feeling about it? >> if the eu had genuinely been worried about russian invasion, why was germany rushing it, making itself dependent on russian oil and gas? and you know, when it comes to the question, when it comes to angela merkel, when it comes on the show , when it comes to the the show, when it comes to the morality of this, this war, russia, germany went on pumping billions of euros, about ,50 billions of euros, about ,50 billion into russian coffers after they'd invaded ukraine. >> do you think it's bad

politics from nigel farage? i mean, he's got bad headlines for this. now. some people agree. some people who are tories, who are sensible tories, who thought i might vote for reform are now going to say, oh, no, not now. he's being cranky, to quote kwasi kwarteng in that seat. well, i think the most i think what's, what's refreshing about reform is that we speak our minds and we speak it without fear and without favour , and we fear and without favour, and we need that in politics. >> and what nigel was making was the connection between the eu's behaviour and where we are right now. and the eu, by the way, on foreign policy is absolutely hopeless. when we were sanctioning iran so no, but it was about the eu that he was making comments that argument you've won the uk about us not being thank you shall we talk about you individually? >> one thing that continues to haunt you a little bit. let's have a clarification of this. that interview you gave to julia hartley—brewer where she asked you about what would happen if people get into dinghies on the channel and then their dinghy ends up sinking and she asks, then you would leave them to drown you replied, absolutely.

they cannot be infantilize raised to the point that we become hostage to fortune. so are you saying you're happy for women and children to drown in the channel? >> you're skipping a crucial part of that interview. yeah. go on, in which i said. and our policy remains that boats should be stopped in the channel and they should be asked to turn around and go back to france where they came from, where the people are perfectly safe. remember, they got into these boats, they paid money to get into these boats of their own volition. and she said, when you intercept the boats, what if what if it was a what if question? they pull out a knife, where do they get the knife from? i should have asked. but they pull out a knife, they stab their own dinghy. the dinghy six. and i said, well, it's not for me to offer up solutions, but one solution could be and i was advocating saving these people is another dinghy is provided to them to, to get into and go back to france. and she said, what if they stabbed that dinghy as well? and what she wanted me to do? and sadly what igave wanted me to do? and sadly what

i gave her was the gotcha moment because i got frustrated with her ridiculous with by journalists. i know, i know, but she's a friendly. she's a friendly voice normally. and i thought, well, you know, i let my guard down and but the point, the point is the policy of stopping dinghies in the channel is the only policy that will work. and it is proven to work because the belgians use it. they stop boats as they leave their shores. >> are you saying you got butchered when she said i get the context. that's why we've clarified it on this show. that's completely hypothetical nonsense. leave them to drown. absolutely you must. it was saying that. >> well, if someone perpetually puts themselves in harm's way , puts themselves in harm's way, is it our job as the united is it ourjob as the united kingdom to rescue them against their will? i mean, let's take bobby sands. let's take bobby sands, let's just take migrants from a humanitarian sort of, perspective. >> and also bearing in mind that some people are bringing children over. yes it is our job isn't it? because what are we saying? we'd rather people die than come here and seek asylum, even if they get their claim

processed and they don't get? >> first of all, let me be utterly clear. i'm not advocating anyone should run. no one needs to drown. you could rescue them. and in this other hypothetical discussion i'm having with you , you could having with you, you could handcuff them, put them in a boat and take them back to france. that's what you. that's what. but come on, let's clarify. >> we don't want migrants drowning . drowning. >> no, but i tell you what. >> no, but i tell you what. >> i want them allowed to drown. >> i want them allowed to drown. >> i want them allowed to drown. >> i tell you what guarantees migrants drowning. and that is not stopping the boats coming across the channel in the first place. and the government policy at the moment, which effectively is to spend £50,000 per head per illegal migrant per annum in this country, versus the £5,000 that the french spend on them is an absolute economic pull. and unless you stop the movement of people and the physical stopping of them would do it and it works, you will go on encouraging people to make that journey, and the default position will remain that we will have continued death in the channel. moreover, there will be criminal and possibly terroristic elements that we will import from france into the

united kingdom, who will then go on to attack civil society in our country. okay, this is a deeply dangerous policy that the government is not getting a grip of. >> all right, ben habib, i think you've made your case. thank you. i've had a fair discussion about that. thank you very much indeed for joining about that. thank you very much indeed forjoining me. good luck on the campaign trail. up next, i'm going to be joined by the pollster scarlett mccgwire, who will tell us who's up and who's down with the gb news viewers and listeners with an exclusive poll reveal just what you wanted. another poll, as we approach the approach the last weeks of the election campaign, 12 days to go. it's really interesting. the numbers. it's interesting. the numbers. it's interesting for reform, having just spoken to ben habib. so don't go anywhere because the last section of the show will be intriguing. see ina in a moment

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. the pollster and director of jl

partners. scarlett mccgwire is in the studio in. possibly the best jumper i've ever seen . best jumper i've ever seen. loving that. pretty in pink. scarlet. come on, hit us with your exclusive gb news polling. what is it saying? yes. >> so we polled 520 current and recent viewers of gb news over the 17th of 20th of june, should say sort of small disclaimer there's margin of error of just over 4. so a 4.3. okay, but we found that nigel farage standing for reform has had an impact on the race in that gb news viewers are now more likely to vote reform than they are conservative. labour still ahead, though. so we have labour on 38% reform on 25. >> ooh that's punchy. >> ooh that's punchy. >> the conservatives on 24. wow. and then all the other smaller parties sort of on less than 10. >> hang on a minute. how does that work. because if they get that work. because if they get that vote share. but obviously it doesn't translate into the seats, then that's nuts. if we had a situation where reform had a bigger vote share than the tories, but actually far fewer

seats, then it will look as if the people who have voted for reform aren't represented in parliament adequately and engender a massive campaign for proportional representation . proportional representation. >> well, quite so. this is just gb news viewers. so if this was to be replicated across the country, though, yes, it could cause some upset. although if reform polled 25% of the vote, they would get quite a lot of seats. >> so as i'm writing this, bear in mind, viewers, this is the first time i've heard this polling, so i'm just reacting live to the numbers. 38% of gb viewers and listeners want to vote for the labour party. >> absolutely . so we found in >> absolutely. so we found in some ways it does mirror the population as a whole. labour are ahead. it's a smaller lead than labour have in general. so the latest average for labour is 21 points ahead of the conservative party. here we have them 14% ahead of the conservatives and 13. so with a smaller lead but still a substantial one. >> but then if you add up the reform and the tories, you get about 50. so the majority are backing righties . but the point backing righties. but the point is, you know, all of this talk about, oh, gb news, it's for certain types of people with

certain types of people with certain kinds of presents. that's nonsense, isn't it? there's a massive labour following here. >> well, it's not what we've seen in our data and we've been tracking this for the last, i think at least a month. it might be a bit longer, actually. but yes, we've been tracking this. and yes, that's exactly that's not what we've seen. we found that, a sizeable amount of the in fact, you know, here you can see, a plurality of gb news viewers want to vote labour at this election. >> all right, fair play. how about reform then? where do you think they're going to top out? because i think 25 i'm getting this is a small sample and it's a gb news sample. so we did have some kind of quite punchy matt goodwin polling last week suggesting that they were an outlier, but i'm thinking that if you made an average of all of the polling, it's kind of putting reform at about 19. is that right, scarlet? it's nearly right. >> so it's 17, which is >> so it's17, which is basically the same ballpark. but i think it's astonishing. so you started the campaign with labour 20 points ahead. they're now technically if you look at the average 21 points ahead fine. it's in that region. both labour and conservatives have seen their vote reduced . what is their vote reduced. what is astonishing is that at the beginning of the campaign, the

conservatives had a 12 point lead on reform. now it's three points. that is the opposite direction of what number 10 wanted to happen. they thought reform voters were going to be there to be squeezed and instead there's now more of them. >> no, farage is squeezing the tories, speaking of the man himself, how's it looking in clacton? because the telegraph did the polling with savanta in the week, suggesting the reform would lose, would win no seats and also that the pm rishi sunak would lose his seat. let's deal with farage. first of all, is he going to win clacton? because it's going to be very embarrassing. if he doesn't, think. >> i think nigel farage will win clacton. so we jl partners just did a poll in the constituency that got released and that showed that nigel farage, not just one, but sort of stormed home in clacton and 48% of the vote, conservatives on 21. i think the most astonishing thing of that is that would be a 51% vote share reduction for the conservative candidate on the last election. >> swing is massive. they're mad, mad, swinging or that's how dodgy , actually. sorry, i'm not dodgy, actually. sorry, i'm not saying anything about the people of clacton and swinging, the pm,

is he going to lose his seat? things are looking dicey on the doorstep everywhere for the tories. >> they are. and it's a good question. i think some people in the conservative party are definitely worried that he might become the first prime minister ever to lose his seat. but i know we actually did a focus group in richmond and northallerton, so the sort of new constituent constituency that he's standing in this time, we spoke to only former conservative voters , and they conservative voters, and they were all incredibly critical of rishi sunak and the party and plan to vote for other people. now, obviously focus groups are not representative, but i think they give you quite a good flavour of how people are thinking and the sorts of things they are saying. and one after another they were very critical. they were critical about, the delivery of the conservative party and what they've achieved over the last 14 years. but they were also critical about rishi sunak personally. and actually, it was just after gamble gate. we'd not intended the focus group to be about it, but they were bringing it up and they were bringing it up and they were saying it's just like partygate all over again . and it partygate all over again. and it shows that rishi sunak is not in control. >> i love that you're calling it

gamble gate. i said betting gate, but gamble gate has got much better. well done scarlette trying to take my job, let's talk about shy conservatism. i've got to read out some candidates as well. now that we've mentioned these different people, suddenly i must leave time for that. i'm telling the producers, shy conservatism . i producers, shy conservatism. i only say this because our people going to admit to the likes of jl partners and others that they're voting tory. they might be embarrassed, but deep down, when they get in that the privacy of the ballot box, they might tick the blue box and just not tell anyone. >> it's always a potential. i think it's maybe less of a problem this time round, but something that i know actually that sort of both parties are actually quite keen to talk about at the moment, is that there are millions of undecided voters in the country still. and, you know, we've seen so far how volatile the electorate can be. i think one thing we can say is that unless there has been some unprecedented polling error, which i think looks very unlikely given all the underlying metrics as well. >> 1992, pollsters had egg on their face the morning after, but go on. >> yeah, i think pollsters have learned lessons, but yes.

exactly. yeah. no, but but i think if you look at it, it's the number of undecided voters wouldn't be able to claw rishi sunak back a win. scarlet. >> we have to leave it there because i'm being reminded i need to read out candidates names. i should know this off by heart. so nigel farage is obviously one of the candidates in clacton , but the others are in clacton, but the others are jovan owusu, nepal. for labour, giles watling for the conservatives, matthew bensalem for the liberal democrats, natasha osborne for the green party, craig jamieson for the climate party, tony mac is the independents. tassos papan , independents. tassos papan, astacio is there for the heritage party and andrew pemberton is there for ukip. thank you to scarlett mccgwire. you'll be back , i'm sure, with you'll be back, i'm sure, with some exclusive gb news polling next week. i'd like to thank all of my guests today, just to remind you, i am showboating on vote 2024 at 7 pm. from monday to thursday, so i'll be back . oh to thursday, so i'll be back. oh my goodness, it's tomorrow.

there are no weekends in election campaigns and of course i'm going to be hosting this show next sunday at 9:30 am. up next, of course, it's michael portillo . but before that we're portillo. but before that we're going to give you a little weather update . have a great weather update. have a great rest of your sunday people . rest of your sunday people. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> hello. very good morning to you. there is some cloud around this morning, even some low cloud mist and drizzle, but it's going to turn increasingly sunny through the rest of the day and the next few days with temperatures rising as a result. best of the sunshine first thing scotland, northern ireland, northern england across the midlands, parts of central southern england, south wales and the southwest a fair amount of low cloud. first thing, even some drizzle over the hills and coasts with some mist lurking

around the coasts of southwest england that could persist through much of the day. but inland the cloud will break up and as the sun comes through, highs of 22 to 25 celsius are expected. now, later in the day, the cloud across southern parts will break up more widely and i think through the evening we'll have some late sunshine coming through. it's going to stay warm as well. a lovely evening out there, just some drizzle there over dartmoor and some mist lurking around the coast of devon. other than that , plenty devon. other than that, plenty of fine weather as we end sunday. northern ireland seeing some cloud arrive into the west and western scotland , and again and western scotland, and again some cloud and some low cloud at that , some cloud and some low cloud at that, starting to push in as we end the day. but this area of rain tends to be shunted to the far north, and it will largely avoid scotland as it pushes away. that means that overnight we'll see widespread dry weather and clear skies under those clear skies. a few mist patches could once again pop up here and

there, and we'll keep the coastal mist across southern parts of england. but widely, it's a beautiful start to the day. on monday morning. plenty of sunshine up and down the country. a couple of exceptions. coastal parts of southern england again, some low cloud and mist and the far northwest of scotland, some low cloud here with some patchy rain and drizzle. but where we've got the sunny skies elsewhere, temperatures rising as a result and highs of 26 or 27 celsius are possible . are possible. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers as sponsors of weather

gb news. >> good morning, and welcome to

sunday with michael portillo . sunday with michael portillo. the summer solstice is past and the days are getting shorter . the days are getting shorter. especially, it seems, for rishi sunak's conservative government . sunak's conservative government. if contemplating the polls, perhaps you've experienced midsummer madness or have bayed at the full moon. i hope that the next two hours of debate, culture and world affairs will give succour and be of solstice solace on this summer sunday. many of us have already voted . many of us have already voted. the day of judgement is nearly nigh. good judgement predominates in my premier panel of pithy political pundits , of pithy political pundits, longborough festival's operas are much anticipated . wagner's are much anticipated. wagner's ring cycle is underway. after building it up, one opera at a time over the past few years, the tetralogy can now be seen complete. chief opera critic of the telegraph, sir nicholas kenyon, has seen die walkure and written full pelt through the skies to london to share his thoughts . former culture thoughts. former culture secretary lord vaizey has said that the artists boycotts of cultural events in the past month over corporate sponsorship are massively counterproductive. the ennobled ed will