the former levelling up got the former levelling up minister, so i thought it'd be rude not to look at levelling up then. has it actually happened or was the whole thing if failure and many folks working themselves up into an absolute sweat over what nigel farage has had to say about putin and ukraine, personally, i thought he was speaking sense. i can tell you my panel have very different opinions . what say different opinions. what say you? different opinions. what say you.7 also different opinions. what say you? also labour criticised today over how easy they would potentially make it for someone to change their gender. apparently they're betraying women , are they? you tell me . women, are they? you tell me. all of that and more coming up. but first, the 6:00 news headunes. headlines. >> and at 6:01, the latest from the gp newsroom. britain's next government will face big decisions on taxes and the size of the state. that's according to the institute for fiscal studies, unveiling its analysis

of the major parties manifestos this morning, the think tank accused both labour and the conservatives of maintaining a conspiracy of silence on their spending plans. but the prime minister, rishi sunak , insisted minister, rishi sunak, insisted tax cuts are possible and he said his government would fund those by spending less on welfare. >> we have a fully costed manifesto which can deliver tax cuts for people at every stage in their lives, and that is largely funded by making sure that we can find some savings in the growth of the welfare budget, because it's been growing at unsustainable levels since the pandemic, we've set out a very clear plan to reform that, to support people into work. and in fact, the institute of fiscal studies acknowledged that last time around, when they said that that wasn't possible, that it was actually delivered. and that's something that the institute of fiscal studies themselves have said . themselves have said. >> rishi sunak. well, the labour leader, sir keir starmer, rejected the institute's analysis altogether, insisting that britain can do better. >> don't accept the forecasts that say we can't do better than

this. the economy has flatlined for 14 years. that's exactly what we are wanting to change. that's why we've set out our plans for growth in our manifesto . so the choice is more manifesto. so the choice is more stagnation. as we've seen for the last 14 years, which hasn't done our country any good, or turn the page, rebuild, regrow our economy and create wealth. so that across britain people feel better off. >> meanwhile, rishi sunak says he isn't aware of any other conservative candidates facing an investigation over allegations of betting on the date of the general election . it date of the general election. it comes after the former minister, tobias ellwood, called on him to suspend those involved. but the party says that would amount to assuming those involved are guilty until proven innocent. the labour leader, sir keir starmer , responded, saying the starmer, responded, saying the prime minister's investigation into the betting scandal is designed to knock the matter into the long grass on the other side of the election . meanwhile, side of the election. meanwhile, labour has been saying today it would end what it's calling diy

dentistry in england if it wins the general election. labour accused the conservatives of taking nhs dental services to death's door, comparing the state of the sector to a charles dickens novel. labour says it would fund an extra 700,000 urgent appointments a year, with grants of up to £20,000 for new dentists in underserved areas. the conservatives say they would see practices offered cash to take on new patients. but the shadow health secretary wes streeting, says that just won't be enough . be enough. >> after 14 years of conservative government, our nhs dentistry services have been left to rot and so have people's teeth and it's going to take time to rebuild nhs dentistry and that's why our starting point is 700,000 urgent dentistry appointments, so that we can meet people's needs without them ending up in a&e. worse, for them and also more expensive for the taxpayer. we're going to take prevention measures, particularly with children living in higher levels of deprivation, with supervised

tooth brushing in schools, an approach that's proven to work wes streeting now, a court heard today how a shopping centre guard hatched a plan to attack the television presenter holly willoughby . willoughby. >> gavin plumb, who's 37 years old, is accused of discussing his plan online, unaware he was engaging with an undercover police officer. his past convictions included tying up a 16 year old girl and the attempted kidnap of women on a train under the threat of a gun. prosecutors allege his history shows he knew what it would to take terrify and overpower a woman. the trial is expected to continue for two weeks. meanwhile, the convicted murderer lucy letby has told a jury murderer lucy letby has told a jury she never intended or tried to harm any baby in her care. the 34 year old is on trial at manchester crown court , accused manchester crown court, accused of the attempted murder of a baby girl at the countess of chester hospital in 2016. it comes after she was convicted last august by another jury of

murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of six others. warmer weather is expected to bnng warmer weather is expected to bring about a boost for the hospitality sector . temperatures hospitality sector. temperatures are expected to peak at or above 30 degrees in london on wednesday, with most of the southeast of england seeing temperatures in the mid 20s. bars, restaurants and hotels say it's likely to boost trade for them as more people head outdoors and enjoy longer evenings. it's in contrast to britain's very rainy spring, which brought 30% more rain across england and wales. which brought 30% more rain across england and wales . and across england and wales. and just lastly, the princess royal. princess anne is in hospital after sustaining major sorry minor, i should say, injuries and concussion when she is believed to have been kicked by a horse at the gatcombe park estate in gloucestershire. the princess, whose 73 years old is understood to be awake. precise details though not able to be confirmed yet due to her condition, a palace statement

saying the king has been kept closely informed and joins the whole royal family in sending his fondest love to his sister for a speedy recovery. that's the for news the latest stories, do sign up to gb news alerts. scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. corach rambler. that's . rambler. that's. >> thank you very much for that , >> thank you very much for that, polly michelle dewberry. and i'm keeping you company until 7:00 tonight. take a look at this. everybody the luxury feels fabulous. i've got a wonderful new desk. it's all going on here. i've lost my pots and pans at the front of the desk. there. i've got separation anxiety . i i've got separation anxiety. i think i need to go stroke them, perhaps in the break, but look alongside me tonight, my panel, they used to entertain you on a sunday morning breakfast together. pretty much. look is the former levelling up minister dehenna davison and the trade unionist and broadcaster paul embery. welcome. look, you see, you are the chosen ones to break

in this desk tonight. we are looking honoured. fabulous isn't it? it's very nice. it's very nice. massive what do you guys think to wear at home. you can get in touch with me. not just about my desk, but about anything. quite frankly, there's anything. quite frankly, there's a lot i need to talk to you about tonight. ten days to go to the election. of course. live in a second to our political correspondent for that. but also just to remind you, you can email gb views @gbnews. com you can go to the website gbnews.com/yoursay or you can tweet or x me, but now let's catch up with olivia. she's been following the campaign trail today. olivia, what have we missed? >> well, it's been yet another busy day on the campaign trail. labour have been keen to talk about their new plan for nhs dentistry. there are some shocking statistics around emergency dentistry for children in particular. the most common reason that children between the ages of six and ten go to a&e is because they need a tooth extracted and labour has said wes streeting . the shadow health wes streeting. the shadow health secretary, keir starmer, have both said that they want to end the dentistry desert. now. part

of that is this policy to put in place supervised tooth brushing for primary school aged children, and they want to bring in 3000 new dentistry graduates to work in the areas where specifically dentistry is proving a huge problem. stoke on trent, filton, among them. but of course, the headlines haven't really been focused on that. westminster hasn't really been focused on that. we've all been looking at yet another day in this gambling scandal. now the prime minister has tried to get on the front foot on this at last, and has launched a cchq investigation into what went on. at the moment he's caught in a bit of a bind because he says that while the independent investigation is ongoing, he can't really comment on the matter and he won't be suspending, candidates. he went as far as to say that if they were found to be guilty of this, they would be leaving the party immediately. and he said he was furious about the whole thing. but for labour, that isn't enough. and i think for quite a lot of voters, that won't be enough either. they suggest that

, that these candidates should be kicked out of the party immediately . and so the row immediately. and so the row rumbles on. will this cchq investigation be wrapped up any quicker than the official investigation? and will rishi sunak have an answer on this by the election, which, as we know, is in just ten days time? rishi sunak has said that he doesn't know of any other mps who are, tangled up in broiled in all of this. but perhaps you wouldn't really expect him to. he didn't know, of course, that his own pps was involved in this. he has made clear as well to journalists that he himself didn't put a bet on the date of the election. so i guess he can be counting some small blessings today at the end of another very, very difficult day on the campaign trail. >> indeed. thank you very much for all of that, olivia . i've for all of that, olivia. i've got to say, i mean, we touched on this betting scandal, when it started happening. it is such an appalling low rent way to kind of be remembered . what do you of be remembered. what do you feel about this? >> i'm all for betting. i used

to work in a bookies and a casino, and i will reveal right now on gb news. i had a bet on the general election a year ago. i bet my last sort of £3 in an onune i bet my last sort of £3 in an online account that the tory party win the most seats have a feeling that one will be less successful than some of the other bets that have been put on this week. it's shocking, i mean, and the thing that i don't understand about it is just the level of stupidity involved served to do it, knowing there's a decent chance you'll get caught, but also the amounts that have been put on it. sort of like £100 bet here and there. if it was a life changing amount that might change your life, it might be worth the risk. but otherwise, why risk your reputation? >> well, it seems like people have been doing it. looks like people may have been doing lots of different small amounts to try and go undetected. perhaps i just think it is so low rent, look, the ifs, they've been speaking out today about these manifestos, tory and labour, and essentially saying that there's a conspiracy of silence when it comes to, tax rises , spending comes to, tax rises, spending plans, so on and so forth. are we seeing honesty poll in these manifestos? >> no, i don't think either of

the main parties are being upfront about the massive levels of investment that are needed to turn our economy and our country around. i think this country is in a sharp decline, and you don't get through that by tinkering at the edges, you need serious investment in our services, in our infrastructure . services, in our infrastructure. we've got sluggish growth in the economy, and add that tinkering at the edges is not going to solve the problems, the fundamental problems i think that our economy has got we need bold thinking. we haven't had much of that. we've had a few kind of platitudes, and a few sort of promises in the manifesto, which are in various manifestos, both parties, which are okay as far as they go, but i don't really think get to the heart of our economic problems as, as a society, and the platitudes are not good enough. we're in a situation where, as i said, we're in sharp decline, and so many things in this country have just ceased working. i mean, the nhs record waiting lists , you can't get an

waiting lists, you can't get an appointment with your gp. we've just heard about the you know, the dentistry scandal, housing. we've got a chronic housing shortage. young people, young families just simply can't get on the housing ladder. people are paying extortionate rents. and i feel michel, are paying extortionate rents. and i feel michel , this is and i feel michel, this is almost like a 1945 moment where the country was on its knees after the war needed huge investment, huge rebuilding, a massive project, and no one has quite grasped the scale of that . quite grasped the scale of that. and what we're seeing is, is i think not not good enough. we're not seeing the kind of radical thinking and bold ideas that we that we need. i mean , both party that we need. i mean, both party leaders constantly talk about bold plans , but actually, they bold plans, but actually, they haven't really got any. let's be blunt, anna. >> so there are a lot of things. i agree with paul on this. i think boldness is absolutely needed. now, you know, you mentioned the sort of 1945 rebuild. and i think the post—covid kind of era was always going to be kind of akin to that economically, to really make sure that the british

economy is firing on all cylinders, but is working for people right across the country as well. i was levelling up, minister, and we're going to talk about that specifically later. but that's a sort of project that needs that bold thinking that paul's spoken about to really address the kind of inequality of opportunities across the country, when it comes to the kind of specifics around tax and spending, i do kind of feel in a way that as a country, we have kind of lost sight of the arguments that the conservative party was making back in sort of 2010, right through to 2015, around how important it actually is that a government does balance the books here. but balancing the books here. but balancing the books isn't just about tax and spend, it's about growth as well. because as we know, if you grow the economy, the whole pie gets bigger. there's more to go around for everyone. yeah. and the parties are talking about growth, but i haven't really seen any firm, tangible, bold plans that i think are really going to deliver that. >> well, a lot of what, the labour manifesto, you know, has in there is, kind of dependent on growth in the economy. and i guess this is one of the questions that people have that's fascinating if you get your growth. but if you don't, then what are you going to do? and this is why a lot of people

pole believe that they're going to be, tax rises, that people are just not referencing in those manifestos. >> it's depressing when rachel reeves says we'll get we'll spend on public services once we achieve growth. well, the point is, how do you achieve growth? you know, we were hit by a recession recently. people forget that we've got a flatline in economy, the way that you recover quickly out of recession and you get growth is by spending, by spending on infrastructure, on public works, on investing in public services. and so on, by getting real wages rising. that's how you stimulate the economy. that's how you improve the situation . and you improve the situation. and you you create more buoyant tax revenues , which then gives you revenues, which then gives you the opportunity to spend more. so saying we'll we'll spend once we get economic growth i think undoes everything that we've learned about economics over the last century, which is that when you've got a flatlining economy, government as an active agent needs to intervene to stimulate the economy. and that means spending money the quickest way out of a recession and a

sluggish economy . a downturn in sluggish economy. a downturn in economy is to spend. that's the reality. short term, maybe, but longer term, we do have an issue here, don't we? >> which is where our monthly sort of debt repayments are higher than our education budget. and the more we borrow, the worse that's going to get, unless we really do get that long term growth. and my concern is that if we just keep borrowing on a short term scale, it will never be achievable. and we're just storing ourselves a problem for future generations. >> one of the things that i think is quite interesting is everyone just kind of has accepted, the situation that we're in, you know, you're talking about post—world war two recoveries and all the rest of it, this whole, absolute destroying of our economy was a political choice . and no one political choice. and no one everyone seems to have kind of gone to sleep and forgotten about that and just marched forward. the choices that were made by both parties, actually, everyone does seem to be in cahoots, that actually we need to close everything down and go harder and deeper for as long as possible. i'm astonished, actually, that people don't seem to be pushing back on the two main leaders about the choices that they made then that have to

led the scenario that we found ourselves in now. >> well, the covid inquiry is going on right now and is a long inquiry. >> it's laughable, though, because it's focusing on who texted who, what is pathetic. it should have been focusing on stuff like should we ever, en masse, have been repeatedly, and prolonging lockdown because of covid? it doesn't ask that serious question. >> i think, though, when you go back to the situation, particularly that first lockdown, which i think is the one that was probably the hardest for so many of us, we didn't know there were so many unknowns here. and i guess when you're looking at scientific modelling that says this, many people might die when you are in that position. and i had to take these decisions. i had to stand up in parliament and make these decisions. if that was on your head and you knew that might be on your head, i wouldn't have made the decision any differently with the information i had then when it came, if i if i had then when it came, if i if i may, when it came to the later lockdowns, i was pushing back, saying we shouldn't be doing these regional lockdowns, we should be allowing hospitality to open. you know, of course we support people who are shielding, we support the most vulnerable. but what about the impact on hospitality? what about the impact on young

people? what about the impact on education? so you know it. no easy decisions to make at that point for anyone. yeah, but i don't think any politician took them lightly. >> alternate views were absolutely silenced during that debate. so it's all well and good saying the scientists said this and that and the other. but there was a lot of scientists that were also undermined and shamed in some ways, but certainly silenced. but you lot at home, whenever i start on my little covid rants, i can almost hear you groaning from the studio because you go, michel, get over it. move on, tell me your thoughts, though, on all of that, also, by the way, i forgot to mention off the back of the headunes to mention off the back of the headlines that story then about the heat wave where people are being told to drink water. do you really need your government to tell you when it's warm, that you need to take water out with you?i you need to take water out with you? i do worry that we're becoming a little bit of a nanny state, are we not, after the break, i to talk to you about levelling up. has it worked at

on election night, we are throwing a party. >> the gb news election night

watch party will be live from essex. and you are all invited on air from 10:00. >> we'll have familiar faces from across the channel entertainment and lots more stuff as we keep our eye on all the results as they come flying in. if you want to join our live election night watch party audience , scan the qr code on audience, scan the qr code on screen or go to gbnews.com forward slash election . party. forward slash election. party. hi there, i'm michelle dewberry. this is dewbs& co seven, the former levelling up minister dehenna davison is alongside me, as is the trade unionist and broadcaster paul embery. welcome back everybody . look the back everybody. look the levelling up minister former is alongside me. so i thought it'd be quite rude not to discuss this topic tonight, my viewer mic he says on the website can you ask the levelling up minister what exactly was levelled up ? i'm just going to levelled up? i'm just going to cut to the chase. let's just go straight with that question. i

couldn't run through an awful lot. >> i mean, i mean, let's talk about what levelling up is, right? because people say they get sick of the slogans, they get sick of the slogans, they get sick of the slogans, they get sick of the platitudes. it's social mobility, right? it's making sure that people, regardless of whether you're from bath, barnsley, bristol, whatever, have got access to the same great opportunities as everyone else in the country. and for me, it's the thing that's always driven me in politics, and i know it's a big interest of yours as well. michelle, around social mobility. i mean, i'm from sheffield, you're from hull. we know it's not always easy for northern kids to actually get on in life. and that's why when i was offered the role, i absolutely jumped at the chance to take it, but it's difficult because it was never the sort of thing that can be delivered in a five year electoral cycle. and i think it was probably a mistake of governments in manifestos, not to be honest about that from the outset, because the only way that we're actually going to fix some of the massive regional disparities in access to opportunities is it's going to take a generation or two, and you look at how they've done it in germany, the kind of post reunification mission they went about, where they have spent hundreds of billions of euros and taken decades to really get

to the root causes of what the issues are education, transport, access to jobs, land, housing, and tackled it systematically . and tackled it systematically. that's the only way we're ever, ever going to level up. and actually, the government made a really good start with the levelling up white paper. and i'm not just saying that because i'm not just saying that because i kind of have to. and it was part of my remit. it actually went into that really holistic view looking at education, transport, health outcomes and access to jobs, quality of job skills , looking at everything skills, looking at everything and looking at how different government departments can come together to address them. the problem is we didn't have much time and of course for two years of it, the whole government was distracted by covid. >> well, how can you say you didn't have much time? because people will shout at the screen and say that the tories essentially had 14 years. well, well, the levelling up mission being a kind of number one mission of course, was, was 2019 a promise? >> i think it's something that we should have been tackling right from the get go. and of course, we have george osborne's northern powerhouse project, which i think was a good first step in recognising actually that the north of england really did need a boost to get back to its former glory. the wider

levelling up project was, you know, to recognise that there were other parts of the country that struggle too, like i'm thinking places like cornwall, the other regions, scotland, wales etc. so i think it's important we took that more holistic view. but ultimately this was never something that was going to be fixed overnight. right. >> so do you feel you're successful when you like look in the mirror, do you think? yeah, i did a good job, i achieved stuff, i was in the job for a yean stuff, i was in the job for a year, and i think about the individual areas where i was able to get projects delivered, the visits i went on, the people i met, and the difference it will make to their small communities. >> was i successful in levelling up the whole country? god, of course not, because as i say, thatis course not, because as i say, that is going to take a generation to fix. but the individual towns, the villages i visited, the, you know, units we were able to bring back in, the skill centres that we managed to open because of government investment. it's a first step, but it's a first step that that, you know, for the people it will actually touch really will make actually touch really will make a difference. >> there you go. a viewer mic. has she answered answered your question or not? paul i think there was a lot of fine talk, but i think the delivery just wasn't good enough in the end. >> i think the promise to those

working class communities was we'll bring jobs, we'll bring industry, we'll bring bring regeneration, we'll bring prosperity. higher wages, higher skills , and so on. and i'm sure skills, and so on. and i'm sure the intent was there actually , the intent was there actually, and it was a message that certainly hit home at the 2019 general election that and get brexit done to really, convince him messages for those communities is but a little bit like brexit. actually, i think people in those communities look at it now and say, well, you promised this and you didn't quite believe in it and you fell short of delivering what you promised, and similarly with levelling up, i don't think it really those responsible really grasped. going back to our first discussion, the magnitude of what needs doing in terms of rebalancing our economy and tackling some of the real grotesque geographical inequalities that still exist in this country, which absolutely deface this country. we don't make anything anymore . we've got make anything anymore. we've got a huge trade deficit. you know, we've got a manufacturing base which is withering away, we've

seen deindustrialisation on a massive scale. i've never accepted the argument that we can't make things that we can't have a thriving manufacturing base, because you look at places like japan and germany, they still seem to do pretty well as advanced western industrial societies. and i think that we could do that as well. but, you know, as i said, i think we put all of our investment in financial services. i think we think that's, you know , the be think that's, you know, the be all and end all. and when it comes to the real economy, the productive sector where goods are made, where wealth is created, those small and medium sized businesses in those in those in small town britain , those in small town britain, blue collar britain. i don't think there's anything like the focus on those places that there that there should be. >> i think there are there are some areas of the country where there's been more success than others. i think about teesside for example, where ben houchen was elected as the mayor and there was actual proper devolution of power and of money, so that a local area area with good local leadership coming together to make it a success and has really managed to do that through the freeport, through teesworks, through, you know, the investment in heavily

skilled jobs , which people are skilled jobs, which people are really starting to feel a difference in terms of their quality of life. so i've spoken to them out on teesside, but unless my memory fails me because i remember that we, scrapped hs2 when it was all about right, we're going to get rid of hs2, we're going to take this cash, we're going to reinvest and it will be a lot of it going into levelling up. >> well i can i'm sure i can remember, that levelling up money some of it being spent on i don't know if it was potholes or something like that in london. >> so some levelling up i'm talking. yeah. no, some levelling up money did get spent in london because it was they were all assessed on a project by project basis. and as you all know, in any city there are bits that need that leg up and need help more. that is a bit of a mistake. >> come on. if you've got this thriving, bustling city of london and then you're stopping the connection as the hs2 connections from it and to it and all the rest of it. and then you're telling people, we're getting rid of hs2 because we're going to level up the country, and then you take that money and you stick some of it into london for whatever reason. that is a bit of a joke. >> you're forgetting the best bit. we only got rid of the

northern bit of hs2, so we're only the bit we actually really needed. i was, i was very anti hs2 the whole time anyway. >> why would the tories do that? because to me it's just such bafic because to me it's just such basic stupidity. >> so, so the rationale was that that money wouldn't be spent on a line to london because it would be spent on local transport projects in the north. that was the rationale, and that was the argument that was made. and when that was announced, i said, okay, do you know what? fair enough. this seems like a really good plan with that money in london. yeah, that's my question. well, precisely. i can't answer that. >> that was after why didn't you raise that and flag that and be like, guys, everyone? >> oh yeah, of course, of course. like i think all of those of us that were in the sort of northern research group and others were, we're not quiet, michelle, you'll know as you were. you were. >> you were. >> i remember the last time i saw you, we was in doncaster and we were speaking at an event about levelling up the north and bofis about levelling up the north and boris johnson actually was supposed to be, i don't know how i. oh, gosh, i forgot about that. random things in life. but bofis that. random things in life. but boris johnson was supposed to be there. he was supposed to be headlining that event, and he didn't turn up. and the reason he didn't know you two were there, that's why maybe it wasn't because he knew who was there. thank you very much.

chirping over my shoulder there, paul embery. it's because he decided to prioritise a visit to ukraine. instead, i'll come up to that, after the break. the whole because nigel farage, he's got in trouble for some of the stuff that he's been saying about ukraine, but that whole nofion about ukraine, but that whole notion that you would even take a penny of so—called levelling up funds from the north and use them for anything in london, thatis them for anything in london, that is ridiculous, is it not? >> yeah. and contrary to what the tories have said over recent years, that they really want to focus on those disadvantaged communities, those sort of post—industrial areas which have suffered from deindustrialisation, socioeconomic inequality and so on. they should have had if i were an adviser, which i'm not obviously to , to the tories, obviously to, to the tories, i would have said, you need to now, having won the votes from those red wall constituencies, all of these millions of people who've never voted for you before and suddenly have done have done , you need to have have done, you need to have a laser like focus on those communities. have those votes have been given to you? they've been loaned to you. they're on

trust. and, you know, the quid pro quo is you have to deliver for those communities. and i think the tories felt right. labour's in such a state. we've got all these millions of votes. we're going to be probably governing for the next decade. and actually we probably don't really need to focus on those communities, those red wall working class communities. as much as people are telling us, and i think in not doing so, they've made a major strategic error. stupid. >> what do you make of it all at home, we started as well. one of the, references that people were making were about the policy about, sponsored, not sponsored, supervised toothbrushing in schools. victoria on the website viewer there she's got in touch and said , funny how i managed to and said, funny how i managed to go and said, funny how i managed to 9° my and said, funny how i managed to go my whole childhood without rotten sweets, but that was without rotten teeth. sure. but that was because i was brought up to brush my teeth and only ever eat sweets as a treat, she's asking again about this whole parental responsibility when it comes to that. have we got nanny state gone mad with some of these policies, or do you support them, coming up after the break, then nigel farage, he's had to hit back, some of the comments that he's made, about that, the situation

in ukraine. personally, i thought he was talking sense, but many people are absolutely whipping themselves up into a frenzy about it. what says you ?

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry. this is dewbs& co with you till 7:00 tonight. alongside me, the former levelling up minister dehenna davison and the trade unionist and broadcaster paul embery. geologic just pass on the message about diana's nails to her as well. don't worry, it didn't go unnoticed, look, there's been a row brewing, sir. there has nigel farage. he has called the former prime minister bofis called the former prime minister boris johnson a liar and a hypocrite, this, of course, boils down to the fact that bofis boils down to the fact that boris johnson said that nigel farage is parroting putin's lies on ukraine, a keeping up with me, look, this all stems from nigel farage, an interview with

nick robinson. and one of the things that he was saying is, and i don't know why people select well, i do. people selectively ignore this point. he says he doesn't condone putin invading ukraine. he makes that point crystal clear. but then what he goes on to say is that actually he he feels that acts that the eu and nato have done by kind of expanding, their kind of borders and all the rest of it has essentially provoked russia. now, this has really created a backlash. and many people are saying that this is nigel farage. his first misstep, so to speak. what do you think to it? >> i'd probably agree to an extent that it is a misstep. and i think the simple point is, you know, he makes a point around nato kind of incursion, but nato is not an offensive alliance. nato has always been a defensive alliance . and the way that the alliance. and the way that the people of ukraine voted to remain independent and then made a decision to join nato to protect themselves , i think is protect themselves, i think is perfectly legitimate. i think it's actually , completely wrong it's actually, completely wrong to say that that is an incursion. however as we know

with foreign affairs, particularly with power players like putin, it's a game of 4d chess, isn't it? you have to keep your eye on your opponent. you have to know how they might react. i suppose that's the point that farage was trying to make. but i think this was a mistake when, you know, overwhelmingly, i think people in britain are very pro—democracy. pro—freedom pro—liberty, and in that sense support ukraine and it's not necessarily about the exact word you say, it's how they're taken. and so in that sense, i think it is a misstep. >> well, nigel farage, he was speaking at an event today, so he actually responded to the criticism that boris johnson had made. like i said, borisjohnson made. like i said, boris johnson came out and attacked him on twitter. let's look how nigel farage responded. >> let's have a little look at something, guys. shall we? here is boris johnson , daily mail, is boris johnson, daily mail, are you watching ? here is boris are you watching? here is boris johnson from 2016. this this is what boris said boris blames the european union for war in

ukraine. >> i've got to say as well, it wasn't just boris johnson that said that. i think boris said that in 2016. the perp as well. god one. i say that with my accent. it sounds very weird, but you know what i mean? yeah, the perp, he said, stuff similar things as well about nato essentially provoking, putin. paul >> andrew, what says you i agree with you and the perp. i have to say perp, i think you can condemn the invasion on the one hand, and i do. it was barbaric and it was wrong, but also believed that the east would march of the eu and nato and the manner in which they've courted ukraine right up against russia's border, was provocative. it doesn't justify the invasion, but it was provocative. look, when the soviets wanted in the 1960s, to base, ballistic missile sites on cuba within firing range of the united states, most of the west, including the white house as we know, said that that was a

provocative act . and i don't provocative act. and i don't think anyone would deny that that was a provocative act if mexico or canada were to enter into a military alliance with russia and china right on america's doorstep , would the america's doorstep, would the white house say, well, we have no problem with this because we respect the sovereignty of independent nation states , and independent nation states, and they should be allowed to enter into whatever military alliances they wish. it's not any of our business. i think we all know full well america would go absolutely mad if something like that were to happen. >> if i make all the difference there, though, was that the placing of missiles was more of an offensive act, whereas nato is a defensive alliance. >> well, well, cuba wouldn't say that because cuba would say , that because cuba would say, actually, we were worried about an american invasion with good reason . and therefore we needed reason. and therefore we needed the support of the soviets in order to repel that invasion. but i just think dnr either people believe in the sovereignty of independent nafion sovereignty of independent nation states and the right of those states to enter into their own military alliances, or they

don't. i don't think you can say , well, we defend that principle when it comes to countries right on russia's border. you know, they should have the right to enter into an alliance with nato, which , let us not forget, nato, which, let us not forget, was explicitly set up after the second world war as an anti—soviet force , essentially, anti—soviet force, essentially, and i think people in russia, when they see that encroachment are probably uneasy about it, as they see it getting closer to their border in the same way that americans would understandably be uneasy if similar military alliances between russia and china started creeping up on their borders, and i'm just i've said on the program many times, i'm concerned at the rhetoric is for more and more war the whole time. at the end, at the end of the day, we need to get people around the table to start suing for peace. and i there are very, very few voices, i think, in the international community who are doing that at the moment. and my fear, and i really hope that the invasion is repelled. i genuinely do, but my fear is

that ukraine is burning through manpower and resources faster than they can replace them , and than they can replace them, and had they sued for peace from a position of strength some time ago when people were were urging them to do it, they may have found themselves ultimately in a better position than suing for peace, as they may well do in the not too distant future from a position of weakness . so. so, a position of weakness. so. so, you know, it's easy to say no, it's all terrible. and you know, what farage said is terrible. and i don't agree with him on many things, but i do think we have to take a broader geopolitical view of these things. we don't do that. >> ashlar on the website says, i think nigel is way off the mark on this topic. the west is the bear that got perked. she talks about things like the annexation of crimea. she's saying that people are amassing troops on the ukrainian border, and so on and so forth. i can tell you, though, there's a lot of people actually, completely agreeing, with what nigel farage had to say. i've got to say i'm one of

them. i find it very peculiar that people just deliberately seem to ignore the context of what he was saying. it's they go to the second part of what he said , which is all about said, which is all about actually, what putin did and how he's responded. but they completely ignore that first part about when he says he does not condemn , this invasion. and not condemn, this invasion. and of course, then the subsequent people who have lost their lives are i find it interesting why people are whipping themselves up into a frenzy . do you think up into a frenzy. do you think it is because people are actually genuinely worried about the impact that nigel farage is having on the reform party , are having on the reform party, are having on the reform party, are having on the election, i don't know if it is because i think if nigel farage has said this 3 to 4 months ago, the same frenzy would have happened even when he wasn't sort of directly involved in the election. >> i think he's the sort of marmite character where people like to have a strong view one way or the other, but you don't think they're making hay with this because they're desperately trying to say because they know that there's something about the situation in ukraine which really does, galvanise people's

support. it really does. and they know that. so you don't think that they're making hay with this to try and deter people from voting for reform uk? >> well, i mean, if your opponent makes a misstep, of course you do. but my point is, i don't think this is necessarily unique to the election, because i think if nigel farage had said this 3 to 4 months ago, there probably would have been a very similar reaction, it's a very bizarre reaction. i would have called it bizarre and ridiculous reaction whenever it was happening . what whenever it was happening. what do you think? i can tell you divided opinions coming through on the emails as we speak. after the break, the labour party apparently, looks set to make it slightly easier for to so—called change your gender. what do you think to all this? see you in two.

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry. this is dewbs& co with you till seven. the former levelling up minister dehenna davison alongside me, as is the trade unionist and broadcaster paul

embery . all i can say is that embery. all i can say is that you guys have very different opinions , on that last topic of opinions, on that last topic of nigel farage, lots of people as well are getting in touch saying that you would dispute that. nato are purely a defensive alliance. you know what? we'll have that conversation perhaps another day. but for now, labour apparently they're going to set to ditch guidelines that have been brought in. of course, you remember all this about whether or not children should be taught about this very contested gender ideology , also, apparently it ideology, also, apparently it seems that they are going to change the rules which are requiring transgender people to live as their preferred gender for two years before they can legally change their sex. i mean, goodness gracious me , mean, goodness gracious me, let's listen to what wes streeting has had to say about some of this . some of this. >> i feel actually really optimistic that we can find a way through that treats trans people in our country with a dignity, the respect , the dignity, the respect, the support and care that they deserve. without compromising on

the sex based rights of women . the sex based rights of women. >> paul mbappe, your thoughts , i >> paul mbappe, your thoughts, i despair, to be honest, i think it's elevating feelings over facts. i think in the light of the castle review, i think the labour party should have steered well clear of the proposals that they're making, and i'm a bit old fashioned in the sense that i believe there are two sexes. male and female, with a very tiny number of people who are what's called intersex, and when they talk about, you know, you have to you have to live in your chosen gender. what is living in agenda? what is living as a woman, you know, can somebody tell me what living as a woman mean? does it mean you have to dress in pink and you have to do the washing up? i hope it doesn't mean that i thought we'd moved on from get out your stereotype. well, exactly . stereotype. well, exactly. that's my point. i hope we've moved on from those sorts of

days. so? so the people who kind of make these proposals , i of make these proposals, i think, need to explain exactly what they mean by them, because i think the debate over this and by the way, look, i absolutely believe that people who feel that, you know, they were born the wrong sex. i understand and sympathise with those people , sympathise with those people, and we've got to treat them with compassion. of course we do. with absolutely got to protect them against any form of discrimination , but what you discrimination, but what you can't allow to happen is for, for women's hard won sex based rights to be undermined and to be unpicked , to indulge people, be unpicked, to indulge people, frankly, of the opposite sex, and, you know, i think, as i say , the debate has been won largely on that. i think there is now a significant body of opinion, scientifically and politically , who understand, politically, who understand, especially post acas, that some of this stuff really needs to be challenged, and i think labour, by a kind of continuing to

peddle this is putting itself at odds with, with mainstream britain. >> i mean, of course, jk rowling , she spoke out the weekend as well and said, essentially, i'm summarising what she basically said. she doesn't feel like she can vote for the labour party whilst this is his current stance. diana, what do you say to it all? >> i find myself always, having a difficult time when it comes to the debate around trans rights versus women's rights, because i think a lot of the time this isn't necessarily a battle between the two. and my concern about this debate more broadly is that it gets really inflamed from both edges. whereas actually, i think the vast majority of people would take the stance that paul took. they're saying we just want people to, you know, live their lives. we should treat everyone equally with respect. but of course, there are points at which this comes to a head. i'm thinking of single—sex spaces, particularly domestic abuse, shelters, etc. where it is possible to have a respectful discussion on this and come up with a solution that pretty much works for everyone. now i won't pretend to know the ins and outs of the labour proposals, because

i haven't looked in a great level of detail. and again, i find myself to some extent in two minds because having spoken to people who've gone through the process of obtaining a gender recognition certificate, it can be quite degrading. it's effectively going in front of a panel providing a hell of a lot of evidence that you have lived in the opposite gender. everyone's experience of that is very different. so providing that evidence can be very difficult and it can be a very lengthy and a very emotional process. so on the one hand, i do think that simplifying that in the sense of only having one direct contact with one doctor is probably better for that individual, but also probably better for the health service to take out a little bit of the kind of manpower involved in kind of manpower involved in kind of manpower involved in kind of giving out these gender recognition certificates. but i think it is right that there's a proper process in place to make sure that there is protection here. you know, i used to kind of think that perhaps self id might be the way forward, but actually i think it is right. there is a proper approved process, particularly if you're going to change official documents, if you want to change the gender on your passport or.

>> but i sometimes i just want to i think i'm in a dream world. ineed to i think i'm in a dream world. i need to pinch myself here. i'm actually in reality because i don't even understand how we've got into this situation where all of a sudden you've got this biological reality. biological sex, which is no one can dispute that. and then we've created these other categories like legal sex. and you can change youri legal sex. and you can change your i mean, what even is a legal sex? what is it the i think it's the gender that people live by. >> and we know that there are legitimately trans people out there. >> and if a man wants to put a dress on and feels that he is called marjorie or whatever it is , that, sure. i mean, i can't is, that, sure. i mean, i can't i don't even understand how we've got into this situation where it was ever indulged. but i think that man can now be regarded as a woman . regarded as a woman. >> i think it's that, respectfully, that level of rhetoric that i think turns this debate into something that it doesn't need to be there are reality. there are people who, right from birth, have felt like they're in the wrong body. and

thatis they're in the wrong body. and that is difficult emotionally. thatis that is difficult emotionally. that is difficult, that is difficult emotionally. that is difficult , that that is difficult, that challenging. there is a reason that mental health issues amongst the trans community are some of the highest of any community in britain and in the world, and i think if you've lived pretty much your entire life from being a child and feeling you're in the wrong body, there's such a disrespectful attitude towards that. and i think of, you know, some of the trailblazers who've appeared in media, of which there aren't many, but i think of ella on married at first sight. we always have this debate as though it's going to be a really tough, no idea who ella off married at first sight is. >> by the way, i don't watch some of your viewers might. >> an incredibly feminine, attractive, gorgeous trans woman who, if she walked into a women's bathroom, nobody would have any idea. and conversely, there are trans men, people born female who are incredibly buff, incredibly rugged. and i think when people suggest that, you know, the whole sort of bathrooms debate, etc, i would much rather have an ella from married at first sight who is absolutely no threat than someone who looks incredibly buff and rugged, but because they were born female , should be

they were born female, should be using my bathroom. >> i mean, never will the twain meet because i just do not believe at all that a man can become a woman just because a man wants you know? he started off as a boy that was feeling uncomfortable and all the rest of it. somehow he is now a woman that will no one will ever convince me. and whilst you can say that that man might have, i don't know who the people are that you're referencing, but they look feminine and all the rest of it. that's really wonderful. and i'm pleased that you look great, you would never be able to, for example, get pregnant, you would never be able to breastfeed a child. you will never have periods. you will never have periods. you will never have periods. you will never be female. however much you i might wish that i was a six foot supermodel. and that's fascinating thing. but that's fascinating thing. but that's in my head. it's not reality, but i don't think anyone's disputing that. >> my point is simply on the, you know, some of the way the debate goes is i don't want a man in a dress coming into my bathroom, but actually, when you look at the reality of how most

genuinely trans people live, that's just not the reality at all. >> i just want to live in a world where facts matter. but i think maybe that ship has sailed. look that's all i've got time for. thank you paul. thank you, diana, for your time. and thank you to each and every one of you at home. don't go anywhere, though, because camilla tominey is up next. that's all for me tonight. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar , sponsors of weather on . solar, sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> evening weather update time from the met office here on gb news. many of us having something of a hot spell over the next few days, but nothing exceptional for the time of yeah exceptional for the time of year. and it isn't going to last too long. in fact, already on tuesday we'll see cloud increasing across the northwest from these weather fronts that are trying to trickle in. but high pressure is dominating for many of us, has been quite cloudy over wales and southwest england today. that cloud breaking up more through this evening. some mist and low cloud

clinging to the south coast. and there's the cloud. i talked about bringing some patchy rain to the highlands and the western isles through the night. for most, though, a dry night, fine night and a warm one. temperatures holding up 15 or 16 degrees in most urban areas . so degrees in most urban areas. so yes, it's going to be a warm start to tuesday , and by the start to tuesday, and by the afternoon we could be topping out at 30 celsius. some mist and low cloud still around the coasts in the south, but generally plenty of blue sky here, and a brighter day for south wales and southwest england compared to today. but it will be a duller day for northern ireland. the cloud arriving here through the night and that cloud also getting into the highlands and the western isles first thing. so a bit of a damp and drizzly start, but some sunshine for eastern scotland and through the central belt, at least initially. but the cloud will increase here as we go through the day. cloud will bubble up also over parts of northern england, and there is the likelihood of 1 or 2 very isolated, but potentially quite heavy showers over northern england during the afternoon. we'll see a bit of rain also for

eastern scotland, maybe a few showers through the central belt, probably brightening up for northern ireland and the west coast of scotland. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

well . good evening and welcome well. good evening and welcome to vote 2024. the people decide with me. camilla tominey coming up on tonight's show. it's war this time between nigel farage and boris johnson over putin and his invasion of ukraine. we're also going to be discussing the idea of there being no brexit renegotiation without free movement. that's what michel barnier has said today. we'll get the reaction from michael heseltine and the labours trans school policy has caused a row. they're saying they will rip up those guidelines for teachers .

those guidelines for teachers. later in the show, we'll also be joined by northern ireland secretary chris heaton—harris to react to the latest on the campaign trail. with just ten days to go until britain heads to the polls. and as always, get in touch with your thoughts on tonight's topics by visiting gbnews.com. forward slash your survey. but first, here's the news with polly middlehurst . news with polly middlehurst. >> camilla, thank you and good evening to you. well, the top story from the gb newsroom tonight is that britain's next government will face big decisions on taxes and the size of the state, according to the institute for fiscal studies today. unveiling its analysis of the major parties manifestos, the major parties manifestos, the think tank accused both labour and the conservatives of maintaining a conspiracy of silence on their spending plans. but rishi sunak insisted