the major parties manifestos, the major parties manifestos, the think tank accused both labour and the conservatives of maintaining a conspiracy of silence on their spending plans. but rishi sunak insisted tax cuts under the tories are possible with his government funding them by spending less on welfare . welfare. >> we have a fully costed manifesto which can deliver tax cuts for people at every stage in their lives, and that is largely funded by making sure that we can find some savings in the growth of the welfare budget, because it's been growing at unsustainable levels since the pandemic, we've set out a very clear plan to reform that, to support people into work. and in fact, the institute of fiscal studies acknowledged that last time around, when they said that that wasn't possible , said that that wasn't possible, that it was actually delivered. and that's something that the institute of fiscal studies themselves have said. >> rishi sunak well, the labour leader, sir keir starmer, rejected the institute's analysis altogether , insisting analysis altogether, insisting that britain could do better. >> don't accept the forecasts that say we can't do better than this . the economy has flatlined

this. the economy has flatlined for 14 years. that's exactly what we are wanting to change. that's why we've set out our plans for growth in our manifesto. so the choice is more stagnation , as we've seen for stagnation, as we've seen for the last 14 years, which hasn't done our country any good, or turn the page, rebuild, regrow our economy and create wealth so that across britain, people feel better off. >> and labour says it would end what it's calling diy dentistry in england if it wins power. labour accused the conservatives of taking nhs dental services to death's door, comparing the state of the sector to a charles dickens novel. labour says it would fund an extra 700,000 urgent appointments a year with grants of £20,000 for new dentists in underserved areas. the tories recovery plan would see practices offered cash to take on new patients, but the shadow health secretary, wes streeting, said that wouldn't be enough. >> after 14 years of conservative government our nhs dentistry services have been

left to rot and so have people's teeth. it's going to take time to rebuild nhs dentistry and that's why our starting point is 700,000 urgent dentistry appointments, so that we can meet people's needs without them ending up in a&e worse for them and also more expensive for the taxpayer. we're going to take prevention measures, particularly with children living in higher levels of deprivation, with supervised tooth brushing in schools, an approach that's proven to work. >> that's the news. for the latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts. scan that qr code on your screen right now, or go to gbnews.com slash alerts . to gbnews.com slash alerts. >> great stuff polly. thank you very much. right. let's get into what's happened on the campaign trail today with gb news political correspondent olivia utley , who joins me in the utley, who joins me in the studio now. olivia, it's nice to see you in person and not on a battle bus. so tell us, bring us up to speed. what's everyone

been doing? >> well, i spent the morning on the labour battle bus, so i'm going to start there, keir starmer has been in northampton today. now what labour wanted to talk about today was its new dentist policy. they want to end the dentistry drought. they want to get 3000 dental graduates into the dental deserts, as i think they're calling them in filton, stroud , stoke on trent. filton, stroud, stoke on trent. and they want to they've talked again , rehashing their policy to again, rehashing their policy to get supervised tooth brushing in schools for young children as a preventative measure. they have also not what they wanted to talk about being on the back foot again, about taxes and their manifesto. the ifs released their verdict on all of the manifestos and basically said none of them are fully costed. >> they're not worth a paper. they're written on. >> exactly, keir starmer, the problem with the labour manifesto was that it doesn't really allow for any unexpected events. and as we've seen over the last few years, unexpected events make a bit of a habit of happening. we've had covid, we've had the war in ukraine and all of that through rishi

sunak's economic plan out of the window, the ifs basically says that labour is going to have to raise taxes one way or another, but not on working people, but not on working people, whatever that means. exactly meanwhile, the conservatives are on sort of feels like day 1000 of this gambling row , rishi sunak has gambling row, rishi sunak has tried, belatedly, i feel, to get on the front foot by organising a cchq investigation to run parallel to the official investigation into these candidates , who have alleged to candidates, who have alleged to have gambled on the date of the election campaign, suspend the candidates because, as he says, actually no one's been accused of anything in a court of law. >> they're innocent until proven guilty. these are just allegations at this stage. just allegations at this stage. just allegations at this stage. >> keir starmer, interestingly, we asked him about this earlier because we were sort of talking to colleagues and saying, hang on a minute. angela rayner wasn't suspended when she was under investigation . but you, under investigation. but you, keir starmer, are saying that these tory candidates should be suspended while under investigation. starmer says that these candidates have basically admitted what they've done. and

so an investigation is a bit different . i'm not sure different. i'm not sure i particularly agree with that. but anyway, rishi sunak is holding out with this line that he can't suspend them until the investigation is over. >> it's overshadowing everything that he's saying and doing exactly . problem. exactly. exactly. problem. exactly. >> this is the problem. he just can't pour cold water on the whole story. >> and where's ed davey, dare i ask, has been in wimbledon. >> he's been washing ambulances. the purpose of that little stunt today is to. he's saying that the we have ten days to save the nhs. this is his new line. we need to get to the bottom of the a&e crisis. one very sensible idea he has, whether it's fully costed in his manifesto, remains to be seen and but he has been talking about social care, something which pretty much everyone would rather not talk about. and he's been talking about. and he's been talking about the problem of bed blocking. so people going into a&e and then being stuck in a hospital because they don't have the care home to go to. now, the lib dems have a very, very ambitious i.e. expensive plan for the nhs and social care which would see billions invested in them and that might

help cure the nhs problem. >> they're talking about social police, which nobody else is right. let's get into the biggest story of the day, which is this johnson versus farage war of words about what farage has said last week to nick robinson on the bbc about ukraine and putin's invasion. just to put this into context, we're going to hear what farage said on the campaign trail in just a moment. but this was in response to a tweet by boris johnson on x as it was, is now known as formerly twitter. this is nauseate ahistorical drivel and more kremlin propaganda , and more kremlin propaganda, said the former prime minister. nobody provoked putin. that's in response to farage suggesting that this was something that was provoked by poking the russian bean provoked by poking the russian bear, he said. because of the eu andindeed bear, he said. because of the eu and indeed ukraine talking about eu membership and talking about nato membership, and was it a provocation of putin? but basically boris johnson said nobody poked the bear with a stick. the people of ukraine voted overwhelmingly in 1991 to be a sovereign and independent country . they were perfectly country. they were perfectly entitled to seek both nato and

eu membership . there's only one eu membership. there's only one person responsible for russian aggression against ukraine, both in 2014 and 2022, and that is putin. well, in response to that, nigel farage appeared on the campaign trail where he basically attacked boris johnson and accused him of hypocrisy. let's have a listen to that. >> this is what boris said. >> this is what boris said. >> boris blames the european union for war in ukraine. but can you see the sheer level of hypocrisy? can you see the nonsense of all of this? and let's be clear, this man will go down as the worst prime minister of modern times, a man who betrayed an 80 seat majority, who opened the door to mass immigration. boris johnson . immigration. boris johnson. >> so there you have it. the worst prime minister in british history, according to nigel farage, who only last week i

think had been praising boris johnson and saying that, you know, they could work together. and he admired what he achieved on brexit. so let's get into this, olivia, you're staying with me. joining me now in the studio as well is the journalist and author ross clark. you've written a piece, ross for the spectator, where you're basically saying you think farage has made a mistake here. however, i will put it to you that he's not wrong to suggest bofis that he's not wrong to suggest boris johnson is a hypocrite. if off and we see it in black and white there that i newspaper headune white there that i newspaper headline does reveal that back in 2016, boris johnson suggested that the eu had provoked putin. so he can't have it both ways. johnson he can't be saying that nigel farage is a putin appeasen nigel farage is a putin appeaser, having been accused of the very same thing himself eight years ago. >> well, boris johnson is not the most consistent of thinkers, it has to be said, and to be fair to nigel farage, he did condemn the invasion of ukraine by russia. so i don't think it's fair to call him a stooge or a propagandist for russia or anything like that, but having said that, i think he is simply wrong to say that the west

provoked, russia into this back in 2005, vladimir putin, made a speech said, the break—up of the soviet union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century, you know? and using it as a pretext, he said, you know, we've got russian peoples now cut off in other countries. he would have tried to reassemble the russian empire, whatever the west did. and what has the west done to provoke him? i mean, you know, why has he invaded ukraine rather than the baltic states? because ukraine is the one country, of course, which isn't part of nato, isn't part of the eu. i mean, if the west had, you know, would defended ukraine in the same way that it invited, the same way that it invited, the baltic states into nato and so on, you know , i don't think so on, you know, i don't think putin would have dared, invade. i mean , farage is going back to i mean, farage is going back to a speech he gave in the european parliament circa 2014, where he warned that this would lead to

war, that argument, to be fair about provocation , he's saying about provocation, he's saying on the back of the deal that was struck in 1991, wasn't he, with gorbachev following the fall of the soviet union , wasn't it? the soviet union, wasn't it? james baker, i think us secretary of state at the time who said that, said to gorbachev, we will not move an inch. he said there should be nothing said about any of the former soviet states aligning with nato. they gave that guarantee at the time. isn't that that he's referring back to? and that actually the west in inverted commas, has somewhat reneged on that promise. subsequently >> well, i mean, a sovereign nafion >> well, i mean, a sovereign nation has the right to join whichever alliances it wants, and the idea, you know, we've had this thrown about in the last few days that there should be a sort of kind of buffer zone between russia and the west, you know, might be appealing to some people in western europe . well, people in western europe. well, it's not going to be very appealing if you live in the baltic states or you live in ukraine. the idea you're just

some kind of buffer zone to sort of, you know, lessen tension between the west and the east when they became the baltic states, ukraine and those other eastern european countries which weren't part of the soviet union, which were nevertheless part of the soviet bloc, when they gained their independence, they gained their independence, they gained the right to make whatever alliances they wanted. and if they wanted to be a member of nato, they want to be a member of the eu . you know, we a member of the eu. you know, we rightly considered those. >> it might provoke putin. i mean, you know, it depends really, if you're giving an explanation or what's appearing to be a justification in farage is being quite clear. he's completely condemning the invasion . varne he had once invasion. varne he had once expressed some admiration for putin's sort of political prowess. he's unequivocally condemned the invasion. but he said an explanation might be the idea that putin reacted to talk of ukraine being both a ukraine member , sorry, an eu member and member, sorry, an eu member and indeed a nato member. there's a

difference, isn't there, between an explanation for something and an explanation for something and a justification for something. >> yeah, i'd say i said at the beginning, i didn't say that nigel farage is saying that putin was justified in invading invasion . but no, i still think invasion. but no, i still think he is wrong to say that the west provoked , putin in any way provoked, putin in any way because, you know, as i said, right , right because, you know, as i said, right, right from because, you know, as i said, right , right from the because, you know, as i said, right, right from the beginning, putin has been saying that he regards it as a great tragedy. the break—up of the soviet union. the break—up of the russian empire . he, you know, he russian empire. he, you know, he regards everywhere where there are russian speaking peoples residents. he regards that as a rightful part of russia. >> fair game basically. >> fair game basically. >> and that's what and you know, whatever we did, i mean, the west has been so feeble in responding to russia's aggression in agreement. >> i might be a point of agreement between those who criticise farage for his comments and those who support them. most people think that the west was completely asleep at the wheel, you know, 2012. we've got david cameron taking putin to the judo at the london

olympics 2013 a special g8 is convened to include the russian president. i mean, in retrospect, what was the western world thinking? >> yeah. >> yeah. >> and what the nord stream pipeline signed after the invasion of crimea . i mean, it invasion of crimea. i mean, it seems ludicrous now. so the point about the west and, you know, go back further to andre litvinenko in two thousand and seven, the nature of the putin regime was absolutely clear. >> then. i mean, to poison them with, you know, the polonium that was a calling card from the russian state. no one else could have got that, you know, no privateers could have got hold of that substance. it was a calling card . putin was saying calling card. putin was saying to the world, you know, you criticised me, saying to his dissidents, you criticise me. and this is what will happen. and this is what will happen. and it should have been absolutely clear at that point, the nature of the putin regime. and instead, you know, we let them go to on invade crimea, annexe crimea. what did we do

then? >> not expecting that this former kgb officer might still be protective of the soviet union and want to restore it? ross thank you. let me just bnng ross thank you. let me just bring olivia back in. i mean, the politics of all this. you could look at it two ways, couldn't you? you could say this is damaging to farage because although the people who support him will be doubling down in their support of this and admiring his honesty, and there's certainly something to be said for a politician sticking to his guns rather than flip flopping. as soon as there's a bit of press heat on there's a bit of press heat on the situation , that could be a the situation, that could be a good thing. you could also be arguing all publicity right now is good publicity for nigel farage. you know, reform is seen as an outlier. he's keeping them on the front pages. he's getting the headlines, and nobody's really talking about what labour and the conservatives and the lib dems are getting up to today. >> you could certainly argue all of that. and i think it's very, very true that farage is a core band of followers, and he does have a big core band of followers. in fact, i saw today that his face is more recognisable in the uk than keir starmers by a percentage point ,

starmers by a percentage point, that said, nigel farage was just sort of being neutralised to the average tory voter . i've spoken average tory voter. i've spoken to conservative voters who never had any interest in nigel farage before, who were beginning to see him as a potential possible leader of the conservative party. after this election, assuming that the conservative party gets absolutely hammered, i think that these comments might take him back a step or two because, yes, you know, you can see that. you can see the argument for what he's saying. even you can see that. yes. if you look at the nuances, he wasn't actually just defining what putin is doing. he was just explaining it. but on the face of it , if explaining it. but on the face of it, if you're someone who's just flicking through the headunes just flicking through the headlines and let's remember, that's what most people are doing. it's a bit of an odd look. it's strange . and i think look. it's strange. and i think actually this might be relatively good news for the conservatives in one respect, in that, as i say, i feel like nigel farage was was beginning to get quite a lot of momentum going , and i to get quite a lot of momentum going, and i think there's probably will take him back a step. on the other hand , as step. on the other hand, as i say, you know, most people are

just flicking through the newspapers in the morning, turning on the tv for five minutes in the evening. they're not following all of this that closely following this show for the whole hour. of course, of course. yeah, but but perhaps not quite as in, ingrained in politics as us three. maybe yeah. >> westminster geeks. yeah, exactly . exactly. >> yes. and i think what they might just see are two big whig right wing figures tearing strips out of each other. yes. so ultimately, really, this is probably quite a good thing for laboun >> so much for the farage and johnson dream ticket of uniting the right. >> exactly. >> exactly. >> will they recover from this? olivia will. you know, at the end of the day, the people rubbing their hands together, right. also be kemi badenoch and penny morden and the other candidates to reunite the right . candidates to reunite the right. well that's true, although calamity being predicted, i do think you can never write off bofis think you can never write off boris johnson. >> he always does seem to rise up from the from the ashes. he is quite phoenix like in that way. >> and so is farage, to be fair, and so is farage. >> and also, i mean boris. nigel

farage accuses boris johnson of a hypocrisy here. boris johnson has been hypocritical so many times in his career by by being a columnist for so long, he's pretty much written every opinion under the sun. >> more positions than the kamasutra, they say. ross clark and olivia utley, thank you very much indeed for that very well informed debate where we've looked at all of the angles, which is what we try and do here on gb news. coming up next, we're going to be discussing brexit and michel barnier claiming that we can't rejoin unless we join lots of things that we didn't want to join and in fact voted to leave in 2016. and guess who i'm speaking about it to? well, it's michael heseltine that should be fun. should be firing fiery. don't go anywhere

welcome back to vote 2020 for the people. decide with me, camilla tominey. let's get stuck into this brexit story. michel barnier has given an interview to the telegraph , where he's

to the telegraph, where he's warned that the european union will reject a future labour government's brexit plan unless it agrees to a return to free movement. the bloc's former negotiator insisted brussels would maintain a block on attempts to cherry pick from its single markets without signing up to the corresponding obugafions. up to the corresponding obligations . so there we have obligations. so there we have it. we're back to talking about cherry picking and whether you can have single market access or free movement , or can have single market access or free movement, or join can have single market access or free movement , or join the free movement, or join the customs union or not. feels like 2016 all over again. well, to join me to discuss this is lord heseltine, former prime minister. thank you very much indeed for your time tonight, lord heseltine. i mean, isn't this quite a cogent argument against rejoining this idea that if we do rejoin, there are going to be even more conditions attached ? attached? >> well, nobody has the first idea of what the conditions would be for to us rejoin or when all we know at the moment that it's been a disaster of historic proportions to leave europe, threatened our

investment programmes, our living standards, our influence in the world, our ability to coalesce with our colleagues over climate change. and we now have got ourselves at the centre of a most difficult, the most difficult issue of our time, which is immigration. and i am deeply worried that this is being organised in a way that spikes up people's emotions and makes absolutely no contribution at all to the issue itself. >> but don't you think that there's a difference between people thinking that brexit may have been a mistake, or at least not gone as well as they had hoped, and wanting to rejoin if it means accepting free movement again, not least because immigration, as you say, has been one of the topics of this election and the majority of the pubuc election and the majority of the public think that legal migration is too to high this country post—brexit, let alone

illegal migration. >> yes. well, i think that that is right. the figures are too high and there will have to be controls. but exactly the same debate is going on in europe, and i can't tell you. nobody can tell you how that will resolve itself , but that there will be itself, but that there will be changes in europe to face this enormous and as yet not of the scale that it's going to be. problem of immigration. i can't tell you how the european is going to cope with that. i have ideas, but certainly there is a changing mood in europe and we are well, i wish we were part of the debate within europe. that would be much healthier than being on the outside and shouting misleading slogans. >> lord heseltine , in response >> lord heseltine, in response to what you've just said there about the changing face of europe, what is your reaction to the recent eu parliament elections, where we have seen a surge in right wing parties? i

mean, is the eu that we would want to rejoin the same eu that we left and would you like to be closely aligned with some of these groups ? i'm thinking about these groups? i'm thinking about geert wilders. i'm thinking about giorgia meloni. i'm thinking about those sorts of candidates . candidates. >> well, if i compare them with some of the people who are trying to be elected to the parliament here, like nigel farage, for example, yes, i would rather be associated with the people in europe. i mean, the people in europe. i mean, the to me, if you think about it calmly , the suggestion that we calmly, the suggestion that we have responsible for mr putin, the interesting thing is that mr putin uses exactly the same argument agent to justify his war as nigel farage uses in to order leave europe. get our country back, is the phrase. but

in putin's language it's recreate mother, your mother , recreate mother, your mother, russia, the great imperial russia. and it's exactly the same approach to basic instincts. and it's a thoroughly immoral , thoroughly distasteful immoral, thoroughly distasteful and very dangerous. and it's happening across the world. another one of mr farage's allies, trump . now trump is allies, trump. now trump is threatening the existence of the nato alliance, is that what the reform movement stands for, in saying it was our fault that putin invaded the ukraine? is he condemning sweden and finland for joining nato? let's understand forjoining nato? let's understand where this all is . understand where this all is. and if you really want to go back, even further, what about the colleague of his who's telling us that churchill was wrong and should have done a deal with hitler? well, the russians did a deal with hitler, and 18 months later his troops

went across their border. >> yeah, but may i suggest, lord heseltine, that you and some of your fellow remainers are in part responsible for the rise of nigel farage, because you welcome the idea of having a referendum on europe because you thought you were going to win it. that then set nigel farage perfectly up to campaign for brexit. he has been in a very effective political campaigner, hasn't he, on your watch and it's disappointing to you and your fellow remainers. he won the argument because his side won the referendum. your side lost and that's how he's been emboldened. well i think i take a slightly longer view of the new. >> you see, i remember mosley in the 1930s and his blackshirts marching in the east end. i remember enoch powell in the 1960s and the rivers of blood. i've heard it all before . we'll i've heard it all before. we'll get our country back. and what they're really saying , there's

they're really saying, there's some funny people living near you, aren't they? complete oblivious that our health service, for example, would collapse without immigration? our universities today have huge revenues from immigrants. now there is a problem. i don't run from that. but the one way you cannot solve it is by stoking up human indignation and resentments with lots of snide remarks about the nature of immigration. just read what trump is saying in america . trump is saying in america. >> okay, but do you take any responsibility for nigel farage's rise ? farage's rise? >> the nigel farage must take responsibility for his own actions , he's the one who, with actions, he's the one who, with bofis actions, he's the one who, with boris johnson used the language that they did. the promises they made and the implications they made and the implications they made . it's made and the implications they made. it's their made and the implications they made . it's their responsibility. made. it's their responsibility. don't blame me in any way. i let

me say it once. i think the referendum was a mistake. and it was. i mean, the idea that a margin of the sort that was achieved at 1% or something of that has resolved the issue is ludicrous . a younger generation ludicrous. a younger generation is indignant. the fact they've been so deprived of opportunities, and they will reverse this decision. quite rightly so. >> okay. but lord heseltine, if you carry on calling for a second referendum, that's only going to give nigel farage an even bigger platform to campaign against it , to suggest that against it, to suggest that there's nothing democratic about another vote. when the first vote was offered in 2016 and it was dressed up as if it was a vote for a lifetime . vote for a lifetime. >> well, you see, so interesting, isn't it, that, we've now had eight years since the referendum and what's the case of the brexiteers ? they case of the brexiteers? they haven't had time to do it. the fact that they've been in government for, all of that

time, brexiteer ministers at the front line, hands on the levers of power and all they can do is say, well, look, we need a bit more time . i see, i saw someone more time. i see, i saw someone said they need 25 years more, and the reason why they do that is because they have no idea what they were doing. no plans, no detailed understanding, and they simply organised, i mean, just think what was happening. they talk about, treaties that britain has entered into as though it's a foreign treaty. they talk about the commissioners in europe as though they're foreigners. they are british. those people in just as much as their other nations. okay. the civil servants in brussels come from london. >> yes . final london. >> yes. final question, london. >> yes . final question, lord >> yes. final question, lord heseltine. i wouldn't ever be so impertinent as to ask anyone how they might vote. but can i put it this way? are you going to struggle to support the tories orindeed struggle to support the tories or indeed labour, if you were thinking in that direction because neither of them have committed to any kind of realignment, the only party as far my, as i am aware, that has

spoken about rejoining the eu is the liberal democrats. so would ed davey potentially have your vote? >> well, i don't have a vote. and of course that is a cop out of an answer. i'm the first to recognise it. i don't have a vote. members of the house of lords do not ed davey have appeal to you . no, no, no one appeal to you. no, no, no one has appealed to me , so i'm not has appealed to me, so i'm not i have not been part of the campaign, but but let me let me not avoid the issue by providing what is a cop out answer. i would find it very difficult to vote for anyone who stands for brexit. it is a disaster, a betrayal of british nationals and interests and a betrayal of the conservative party. i've worked for ever since winston churchill led it . churchill led it. >> so that's suggesting, lord heseltine, that if you did have a vote, you wouldn't be giving it to rishi sunak on july the 4th. >> well, you then have to weigh

the balance. and it's the awful dilemma that keir starmer had with his question about corbyn and look, if i was in your shoes, i would ask that question because i know it's a good trick question and it's everybody will say he's avoiding the issue. and in some parts i was by saying that i actually don't have a vote, but i'm not avoiding the question. i'm telling you, i would find it very difficult to vote for somebody who believes in brexit. >> okay , lord heseltine, thank >> okay, lord heseltine, thank you very much indeed for being so generous with your time this evening. lovely to speak to you . evening. lovely to speak to you. well, coming up next, i'm going to be speaking to the government minister, chris heaton—harris, who is at the spin in the latest debate between starmer and sunak.

welcome back to vote 2024 with me. camilla tominey. now, let's speak to the northern ireland secretary, chris heaton—harris, secretary, chris heaton— harris, who secretary, chris heaton—harris, who is at a spin room in central london spinning on behalf of sunak versus starmer. lovely to

see you, minister. thank you very much for your time . you're very much for your time. you're competing a little bit with some background noise, but that's to be expected , the big debate of be expected, the big debate of the day actually hasn't really involved rishi sunak and keir starmer. it's involved boris johnson and nigel farage rowing about putin's invasion of ukraine. but farage is right, isn't he? in calling boris johnson a hypocrite? because there is that headline in the i newspaper from 2016 suggesting that the former prime minister had suggested that the eu was to blame for the russian invasion. so boris johnson can't have it both ways, can he ? both ways, can he? >> i'm afraid this is where i will have to completely disagree with nigel farage, boris has been completely down the line, straightforwardly acknowledged this evening, by keir starmer of all people , supportive of all people, supportive of ukraine, of the government in kyiv since the very start, i was actually i just had been entered

boris's cabinet by eight days when that invasion came , he was when that invasion came, he was 100% behind the people of ukraine. then he is 100% behind the people of ukraine now. and to suggest otherwise is just disingenuous . disingenuous. >> i know, but he did say in 2016 that the eu was to blame for the russian invasion of crimea. that was a newspaper headline. it's there in black and white. so has he just flip flopped himself? no. as i just said, boris has been there . i said, boris has been there. i don't think anybody around the world disputes. maybe apart from nigel farage, but he's got a very interesting view on this whole ukrainian thing. but no one disputes that this conservative government each of the conservative prime ministers in this parliament and indeed certainly since the ukrainian invasion, illegal invasion of ukraine happened , no one can ukraine happened, no one can dispute and no one's tried to dispute and no one's tried to dispute apart from , nigel dispute apart from, nigel farage, that we've been completely supportive of the

people of ukraine, the government of ukraine, president zelenskyy in both money in in helping to train and arm and indeed trying to help repel, helping to train and arm and indeed trying to help repel , the indeed trying to help repel, the russian attack. it's just bewildering to see how people are trying to spin that in a different way . different way. >> okay. can we move on to the institute for fiscal studies analysis of all of the party's manifestos? paul johnson of the ifs has stressed that the next government must be laser focused on improving our economic performance . however, he performance. however, he cautions, and i quote but on the big issues over which governments have direct control on how they will change tax, welfare, public spending , the welfare, public spending, the manifestos of the main parties provide thin gruel . indeed, on provide thin gruel. indeed, on july the 4th we will be voting in a knowledge vacuum. he basically says the manifestos of all parties, the tories included, aren't really worth the paper they're written on. >> i think he should give the tory manifesto a reread, actually , because not only is it

actually, because not only is it in there as to what we do on tax and spend, but also how we pay, how we'd pay for taxes, including indeed, rishi went into the prime minister, went into the prime minister, went into it this evening on the stage , live on air, in front of stage, live on air, in front of hundreds, if not thousands of people online and elsewhere. exactly what we need to do to get people off of welfare and into work. so i'm afraid, i think that i just disagree. again, i'm obviously being quite disagreeable this evening. i don't like being disagreeable, but i completely disagree with the ifs on that. on this, i, you know, i'm fair play on the on the labour manifesto. but, because they're not describing how how much they're going to tax people as, as it comes to it. and we've already identified at least two, £2,000 a year worth of taxes. i don't think we've even scratched the surface on where labour are going to go on where labour are going to go on that, but i this there's a whole booklet attached to about the costings of the tory manifesto, which maybe the ifs forgot to read . okay. forgot to read. okay. >> very quickly. how confident

are you out of a scale of 1 to 10, that the conservatives might be able to win on july the 4th? i well, any politician who gives you a prediction, on a general election result ten days out is a very, very brave politician indeed , we're we're the indeed, we're we're the conservative party are campaigning in, in every seat for every single vote. i've been up and down the country myself into, i think about 26 different seats in the course of the last, three weeks. and i am more confident than maybe the polls would suggest that we are going to do , okay. and we've got good to do, okay. and we've got good mps. we've proving that they're worth with incumbency up and down the country to. but this is for the british people to decide. they have a big choice when it comes to july the 4th, and that that choice is whether they see rishi sunak returned into number 10 or keir starmer, because if they vote for reform, if they vote for lib dems, all they're going to get is keir starmer. and i think everybody

needs to i think actually everybody does understand that. okay >> chris heaton—harris, thank you very much indeed for joining us. from a rather noisy spin room. thank you. well, coming up next, we're going to be discussing labour's plans. allegedly it hasn't been ruled out to tear up the guidelines on transgenderism in schools . don't transgenderism in schools. don't go

welcome back to vote 2024 with me. camilla tominey, so bridget phillipson, who's the woman who hopes to be the next education secretary, has not ruled out scrapping the guidelines that were very recently introduced by the tory government to control how children are taught about transgender prism in schools. and the guidelines clearly state that actually a child's different gender shouldn't be automatically affirmed and that their parents should be informed. if somebody is decided that they want to identify as a different gender. and also just

when it comes to teaching sex and biology, that children shouldn't be taught that there are various different genders. so bridget phillipson has suggested that she hasn't ruled out. so she hasn't said for definite that she would scrap these guidelines. but she's very much hinted that labour would want to change them, she says, because they contain unnecessary language or to talk about this is maya forstater, who's the chief executive officer and co—founder of sex matters . maya, co—founder of sex matters. maya, thanks for joining me. co—founder of sex matters. maya, thanks forjoining me. what's your reaction to this? i mean , your reaction to this? i mean, do these guidelines contain quotes unnecessary language, i think there's been quite a lot of confusion about this. >> so i think what bridget phillipson was talking about was the not the guidance on teaching children about sex and gender, which comes under seesahai , which comes under seesahai, which comes under seesahai, which there has been, guidance . which there has been, guidance. but the guidance on what schools do when they have a child who says, i think i'm in the wrong body or i feel unhappy . vie, and body or i feel unhappy. vie, and what she said was, that schools

really do need guidance and that she was going to look at the consultation responses that had come in. so the government has published this guidance for consultation. hundreds of people responded . teachers, parents, responded. teachers, parents, students, psychologists , all students, psychologists, all sorts of people. and she said she's going to read the read the response is, so i think, you know, that's not that's not a bad answer from someone who wants to be in government, what's it what's crucial is that they do finalise guidance and make it really clear for teachers what they should do . teachers what they should do. >> and what do you think teachers should do? what's the position of sex matters on this, well, we think the government should provide schools with a model policy. so like individual teachers, individual head teachers, individual head teachers shouldn't have to work this out for themselves. the government should tell them this is what you should do. this is what the law says. and if you get sued, we'll stand behind you. that's what teachers want. that's what headteachers want . that's what headteachers want. and what we think that guidance should say is that schools

should say is that schools should always remember that every child has a sex, and that sex cannot change. and you need to, be clear what sex every child is in order to keep them safe, in order to keep , their safe, in order to keep, their classmates safe, in order to treat them fairly . and then if treat them fairly. and then if you have a child who feels unhappy about their body or is going through gender distress, you treat that child in the same way that you treat any other child that is having , child that is having, behavioural or psychological issues that the school can help them through. but what you can't do at school is say we will, treat you as if you're the opposite sex. >> so this default sort of affirmation you think should end. and equally finally, maya, are you happy with it just being guidance because we did a story on the telegraph saying that the guidance that had been issued was being ignored by a lot of schools. the journalists focused on the south west , but a lot of on the south west, but a lot of people are saying this needs to be statutory guidance . it can't be statutory guidance. it can't just be guidance that teachers take or leave, depending on

their own feelings. >> i think what it needs to be is clearer. so the guidance that was put out, it said there are all of these issues that you've got to think about. you need to think about the age of the child, what they're going through their background in order to decide whether you should treat the child as the opposite sex, whether you should call a boy a girl in any circumstances. we think if you made the guidance much clearer and if the government stood behind it and said, if somebody sues you for following this guidance , we will stand behind guidance, we will stand behind you. we will. take that take that case with you . then that that case with you. then that would give schools the reassurance that this is the safe thing to do. this is the right thing to do, and they can do it without getting in trouble, because that's what headteachers want. they just want to know. they get on with teaching and not worrying about sex and gender. >> okay, for maya, starter, thank you very much indeed for joining me this evening. and political commentator theo usherwood joins me in the studio. theo, let's move this

debate on a little bit, because a row appears to have broken out between the harry potter author, jk rowling and labour. she's written this very punchy piece for the times, in which she basically said, yes, i was a labour supporter and i was a labour supporter and i was a labour donor in the past, but i cannot support sir keir starmer. she says she's got a bad opinion of his character because of his stance on transgender issues. as long as labour remains dismissive and often offensive towards women fighting to retain the rights of their four mothers, which they were fought for all time, i'll struggle to support them. how does starmer play support them. how does starmer play that? i mean, he said today he's reached out and said, let's have a meeting. but i mean, this is quite damaging, isn't it? >> it is damaging, i think in politics. us camilla, politicians know that they're going to get they're going to take flak from their opponents. they expect it. that's what happens. and it's part of part and parcel of politics, especially during an election when it becomes very difficult is when you have somebody as esteemed as jk rowling, who sold millions of books very, very popular amongst children. they've been turned into hugely

successful films. and now she is saying, and she's not just somebody who could say, oh, that's somebody who the tories have given a peerage to, or that's somebody who supported bofis that's somebody who supported boris johnson or liz truss in the past. no, this is somebody who in 2008 donated £1 million to the labour party. now she's turning around and saying, you've got a particular problem with this, with your leader in keir starmer, who she finds that she cannot support because she doesn't think she can trust him on this particular issue , then, on this particular issue, then, then that's a, that's that's problematic for keir starmer. and the other issue is that those around keir starmer in labour are showing huge amounts of leadership. and i'm talking, you know, about tony blair, who of course gave that interview where he said biologically a woman has a vagina and a man has a penis . and keir starmer, this a penis. and keir starmer, this is a man who in 12 days time could be prime minister, is having to say, i agree with tony blair, it should be the other way round, shouldn't it? it should be, you know, there should be, you know, there should be, you know, there should be those that are in labour saying, i agree with keir starmer, we're streeting. the shadow health secretary is also showing leadership on this

particular issue. he said he's depressed and said he was depressed and said he was depressed that this situation had arisen with jk rowling . had arisen with jk rowling. >> he said he'd changed his mind as well and he had said trans women are women. and now he says he doesn't want to say that anymore. we've had problems with rosie duffield, the labour candidate in canterbury, i believe, who seems to have been isolated from her own hustings and has been complaining that she couldn't attend. she can't have a dialogue with the labour leader about this . there was leader about this. there was then the controversy over whether or not a woman has got a cervix, or a man has got a cervix, or a man has got a cervix, and a lot of confusion in that direction. the other thing about this, theo, is when i looked at the labour manifesto, the actual paragraphs, relevant paragraphs on transgenderism are quite woolly. yeah. on one hand, we've had keir starmer saying we do not want to introduce self—identification in through the back door. that's a sort of attack on what nicola sturgeon tried to do with the snp in scotland. but at the same time, anneliese dodds is basically suggesting that under a labour government you could get a gender recognition certificate if you go to one doctor. yes, and have it affirmed, which strikes me that it might be

self—id by the back door. >> so, so, so at the moment you need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria from two specialist doctors. it then goes up to a panel of lawyers and doctors to approve it, and then you get your gender recognition certificate. what keir starmer, what this manifesto is proposing is it's just one specialist doctor. and then you get your gender recognition certificate. and now he's calling it a cooling off period , which the cooling off period, which the implication of which is you could be halfway through your cooling off period and then say, actually, i don't know. i don't want to fancy that. i'm going to go back to my original gender and that that then you know, you're effectively getting self—id via the back door. >> and that specialist doctor, i mean, doctors will gain a reputation for granting the certificate. >> yeah, that that that could well be that could well be the case. it's, it's not watertight. and what labour is doing is facing one way because they know there's a politically an issue with this. and they're saying no , we stand up for gender equality. we stand up for the rights of women. and then actually, when you look at the detail of what they're doing , detail of what they're doing, they're actually making it. they're actually eroding those

rights with this, with the detail and, and what they're taking advantage of is this is very technical. yes. it's very specific . and you've got to specific. and you've got to really have an eye for the detail. and jk rowling and others really do. yeah. but it, it, it enables the labour leadership to take advantage of that because most of the population don't necessarily. >> they don't, by the way, the population are worried about saying anything about it in case they're called a bigot and cancelled. >> cancelled. yeah. so it doesn't. so actually if labour is present, present their case facing one way, they're actually doing something else. >> the other theo usherwood, thank you very much indeed for joining me this evening. tom harwood you're back. state of the nation 8 pm. what have you got coming up? >> a conspiracy of silence. oh, those are the words used by the very respected institute for fiscal studies this morning when they said that no party is being honest about the tax rises that will have to come in the next parliament, short of a miracle, if services are going to maintain, even at the levels they are now, we're in for higher tax. i'm going to be talking to jonathan ashworth

from the labour party about that. and over the weekend i sat down with the man, according to some polls at least, who's going to be the next leader of the opposition, sir ed davey, the leader of the liberal democrats. oh great stuff. >> so that sounds perfect , all >> so that sounds perfect, all of the candidates in canterbury are available on the gb news website . just to make that website. just to make that clear, i'll be back tomorrow night at seven again. but first, here's a weather update . hint here's a weather update. hint it's hot with alex deakin. have a good evening. >> it looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news. >> evening weather update time from the met office here on gb news. many of us having something of a hot spell over the next few days, but nothing exceptional for the time of year and it isn't going to last too long. in fact , already on long. in fact, already on tuesday we'll see cloud increasing across the northwest from these weather fronts that are trying to trickle in. but high pressure is dominating for many of us. has been quite cloudy over wales and southwest

england today. that cloud breaking up more through the evening. some mist and low cloud clinging to the south coast . and clinging to the south coast. and there's the cloud. i talked about bringing some patchy rain to the highlands and the western isles through the night. for most, though, a dry night fine night and a warm one. temperatures holding up 15 or 16 degrees in most urban areas. so yes, it's going to be a warm start to tuesday and by the afternoon we could be topping out at 30 celsius. some mist and low cloud still around the coasts in the south, but generally plenty of blue sky here and a brighter day for south wales and southwest england compared to today. but it will be a duller day for northern ireland. the cloud arriving here through the night and that cloud also getting into the highlands and the western isles for first thing. so a bit of a damp and drizzly start, but some sunshine for eastern scotland and through the central belt, at least initially. but the cloud will increase here as we go through the day. cloud will bubble up also over parts of northern england, and there is the likelihood of 1 or 2 very isolated, but potentially quite

heavy showers over northern england during the afternoon. we'll see a bit of rain also for eastern scotland, maybe a few showers through the central belt, probably brightening up for northern ireland and the west coast of scotland. plenty of hot, hazy sunshine further south, 30 degrees likely close to london. wednesday again very warm with some sunshine across the south. a bit more mist and low cloud on the east coast. however there so it could be quite grey here, but a brighter day for northern ireland, some sunshine and again across the south and east with some sunshine temperatures likely to top out around 30 celsius. that's all from me for now. goodbye >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> good evening. i'm tom harwood, bringing you the state of the nation tonight. the

political parties have had their manifestos scolded by a leading think tank . but we obviously think tank. but we obviously told you this on state of the nafion told you this on state of the nation last week. the shredded. so i suppose it's perfectly legitimate. probably for the shredder. there we go. i think it's got the largest amount of spending increases of any of the manifestos and would be would be on our backs if we didn't do that. so there we go. never say we're not ahead of the curve here on state of the nation. now nigel farage has come out all guns blazing against the daily mail and boris johnson . mail and boris johnson. >> it is boris johnson from 2016. this is what boris said . 2016. this is what boris said. >> meanwhile, the transgender row has reignited as the labour party has suggested it could rip up the tories ban on teaching children that there are more than two genders. plus over the weekend i caught up with the lib dem leader, sir ed davey. now could he be the next leader of

the opposition , or is