their political parties have had their manifestos scolded by a leading think tank . but we obviously think tank. but we obviously told you this on state of the nafion told you this on state of the nation last week. the shredded. so i suppose it's perfectly legitimate. probably for the shredder. there we go. i think it's got the largest amount of spending increases of any of the manifestos and would be would be on our backs if we didn't do that. so there we go. never say we're not ahead of the curve here on state of the nation. now nigel farage has come out all guns blazing against the daily mail and boris johnson . mail and boris johnson. >> it is boris johnson from 2016. this is what boris said . 2016. this is what boris said. >> meanwhile, the transgender row has reignited as the labour party has suggested it could rip up the tories ban on teaching children that there are more than two genders. plus over the weekend i caught up with the lib dem leader, sir ed davey. now could he be the next leader of

the opposition , or is he just the opposition, or is he just a prat on a paddleboard.7 well, state of the nation starts now . state of the nation starts now. i'll also be joined by my panel, the head of communications for the head of communications for the popular conservatives group, annunziata rees—mogg, and the founder of novara media, aaron bastani. that's all coming up after your latest headlines with polly middlehurst . polly middlehurst. >> tom, thank you and good evening to you. well, the top story from the gb newsroom tonight is that the prime minister says he isn't aware of any other conservative candidates facing questions over alleged betting on the date of the general election. it comes after former minister tobias ellwood called on rishi sunak to suspend those involved. but the party says that would amount to

assuming they're guilty until proven innocent . the labour proven innocent. the labour leader, sir keir starmer, criticised the prime minister's approach , saying it was designed approach, saying it was designed to knock it into the long grass on the other side of the election . meanwhile, the election. meanwhile, the scottish conservatives have launched their manifesto today with a promise to recruit 1000 more gps and police officers . more gps and police officers. the party described what would be its laser like focus on real priorities, and the party leader , douglas ross, was joined by the prime minister at the event in edinburgh. rishi sunak, though, accused the scottish national party of failing the scottish people . scottish people. >> now the snp have let down scotland their independence is. obsessions mean that they've neglected everything else letting down scotland's children, letting down this country . if the snp win country. if the snp win a majority of the seats at this election , they will treat that election, they will treat that as a mandate to carry on campaigning for independence for another five years. a for vote

the scottish conservatives is a vote to put this issue to bed. to move past these tired and stale arguments and to go forward , united and together . forward, united and together. >> rishi sunak. meanwhile, in northern ireland, the democratic unionist party has launched its manifesto speak . at the launch, manifesto speak. at the launch, dup leader gavin robertson said every vote counts. >> the publication of our manifesto marks ten days to polling day and make no mistake, the outcome of this election will matter. the democratic unionist party has the strength and the depth to be able to unashamedly make the case for northern ireland. we go to parliament and we make that case on your behalf. the dup has an experienced track record of working for you on the issues that matter, whilst others talk about delivery . about delivery. >> meanwhile, nigel farage has

been interviewed on itv within the last hour and he's claimed the last hour and he's claimed the former us president donald trump learned a lot from him and particularly watching his european parliament speeches before running for the us presidency himself . on itv's the presidency himself. on itv's the leader interviews, mr farage responded to the idea that he is britain's version of donald trump , saying i think we're very trump, saying i think we're very different, but i think we think the same on many things. >> he's learned quite a lot from me, i think. i think it goes both ways. yeah. >> what's he learned from you.7 >> what's he learned from you? >> oh, i think he was. i mean, he was watching my speeches in the european parliament for many years, really before he, before he decided to run. >> yes. he told you that. i know i >> -- >> and lastly, princess anne is in hospital after sustaining minor injuries and concussion after being kicked by a horse on her gatcombe park estate in gloucestershire yesterday. a palace statement released today said his majesty the king has been kept closely informed and

joins the whole royal family in sending his fondest love for a speedy recovery . that's the speedy recovery. that's the news. for the latest stories, do sign up to gb news alerts , scan sign up to gb news alerts, scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. common alerts . to gb news. common alerts. >> welcome back to state of the nation. at 8:05, i'm tom harwood. now earlier today, the director of a leading think tank, paul johnson of the institute of fiscal studies, had this to say of the party's manifestos . manifestos. >> he's called this a conspiracy of silence . and that has been of silence. and that has been essentially maintained regardless of who takes office following the general election, they will they might get lucky, but unless they get lucky soon, face a stark choice raise taxes by more than they've told us in their manifesto, or implement cuts to some areas of spending or break their fiscal rules and

allow debt to rise for longer. that is, to use that horrible word, the trilemma . word, the trilemma. >> well, who better to ask about precisely this than the shadow paymaster general, jonathan ashworth, who joins me live. jonathan, which is it? according to the ifs, you'll have to raise taxes, cut spending, or break your rule on debt . your rule on debt. >> or grow the economy. i understand why people are sceptical, given we've had paltry growth. these last 14 years under the conservatives, but we believe that we can introduce measures that can get the economy motoring planning reform, so we can build again in this country an industrial strategy with our energy policy by investing in renewable energy sources, which will create good, well—paid jobs, and, of course, cut energy bills for good as well. we've got a skills and apprenticeships policy and a welfare reform and employment policy, whereas if we aim for 80% employment, that would that

would support 2 million more people moving into the labour market. and we want to give those people the skills and opportunities to take up good jobs. opportunities to take up good jobs . so we believe we can grow jobs. so we believe we can grow the economy and by growing the economy, of course, you improve the state of the public finances i >> goodness me, you're sounding like liz truss jonathan ashworth suggesting that everything can be paid for through immediate and fast economic growth . and fast economic growth. >> no, actually, we're very honest. we believe that not everything can be paid for. that's why we've made very tough decisions in this campaign where there are where we've had to say there are where we've had to say there are where we've had to say there are certain things which were not able to fund, but where were not able to fund, but where we have made spending commitments in this campaign. we've outlined where the money every penny piece will come from. we are, for example, going to take that very tough decision to take that very tough decision to levy vat on private school fees and use that money to invest in state schools, recruit more specialist teachers 6500. we've heard the tax rises that you're planning in your manifesto, and they do if we're to believe your arithmetic fund,

the pledges in your manifesto . the pledges in your manifesto. >> but let's look at things that aren't in your manifesto. for example , a new settlement with example, a new settlement with junior doctors. you say you want to settle the junior doctor pay dispute. are you going to do that for free, or are you going to find more money for that? and if you find more money for that, where on earth it's going to come from? >> well, the junior doctor dispute is well, we're not going to pay the 35. that's unrealistic , we've got to be unrealistic, we've got to be we've got to negotiate and discuss these matters on the bafis discuss these matters on the basis of a sense of reality about the state of the public finances. >> it will mean more money. >> it will mean more money. >> but the dispute is not just about pay. the dispute isn't just about pay, of course. it's also about working conditions and you've got to look at working conditions the way rotations work in our hospitals, the way in which the way in which people are added to their, you know, the shifts that they do , the way in which these are do, the way in which these are scheduled, there's a whole range of things that can be looked at, but you want your seriously try and suggest you're going to

settle the junior doctor dispute with a 0% pay rise. >> this is fantasy politics. no, but i no, i tell you what, it's fantasy politics is pretending that these issues cannot be fixed without engaging in serious dialogue. >> and that's what the labour government will always do, engagein government will always do, engage in serious dialogue. we didn't have national industrial action in the nhs under the last labour government. we didn't have these national strikes in the nhs under the last labour government, the last labour government, the last labour government increased nhs spending by over a third. >> and the last labour government would grew the economy. >> and if this government had grown the economy at the same rate, the last labour government grew the economy. there would have been billions of pounds more for public expenditure and our public services. >> are you suggesting that if the labour party were in charge, if the labour party were in charge since 2010, we'd have not only been the third fastest growing country in the g7, we'd have grown materially faster than just about any other developed country in the world.

i mean, you know, you know as well as i that since two thousand and seven, 2008, all european economies have had sluggish growth. most developed economies around the world have had a productivity problem and sluggish growth . the uk wouldn't sluggish growth. the uk wouldn't be a standout different player with a different government, would it ? would it? >> well, of course it would have been because we would have had a plan for growth. we had a plan for raising productivity. the conservatives have given up on growth and have accepted that paltry growth, anaemic growth is historical revisionism. >> when gordon brown announced his final budget in 2009 2010, it was described as an austerity budget. all parties went into the 2010 election promising. and you know, you stood in this election promising spending cuts. they wouldn't have been a jot of difference between how gordon brown would have handled the financial crisis, or how the coalition did. >> huge difference. there was huge difference. we had a plan for growth in 2010, which george was promising cuts back on

hugely huge difference. we had a plan to reduce the deficit because we're always prudent with the public finances. >> the other plans are billions in cuts. you can't suddenly pretend that if you'd have got in, it would have looked magically different with loads more spending . more spending. >> we well, of course it would have been. we grew the economy when we were in power. the tories have failed on growth . tories have failed on growth. that's what happens when you get the tories in power. they fail on growth. that's why employment at the end of this parliament is lower than the start of the parliament. last time that happened was in 1979. parliament >> 200,000 people have millions higher than it was in 2010. there has been a pandemic in this parliament, but over the course of the last 14 years there have been hundreds of jobs each day created . each day created. >> unemployment's up by nearly 200,000 since rishi sunak became prime minister and employment is lower at the end of this parliament than the start. that's not happened since the 1979 parliament. >> that's how high is employment compared to 2010, jonathan

ashworth . ashworth. >> well, there's a larger population, but employment is lower the employment rate than the start. >> the employment rate. >> the employment rate. >> that is not an economic record to be proud of . record to be proud of. >> sorry, you can't pick and choose jonathan ashworth. we hear this so often from the labour party. you either try and pick your your time to compare an economic statistic from 2010, when the country was recovering from an economic crash presided over by the last labour prime minister or you choose the penod minister or you choose the period where there was a global pandemic and billions were spent and taxes rose because of that, you can't pick and choose your dates just to make your data fit. your particular argument at any particular time . any particular time. >> i'm not picking and choosing. i'm just reporting the facts of what's happening in the labour market. employment at the end of the parliament is lower than the start. last time that happened was 1979. that's the tory record i >> goodness me. it does seem that we have forgotten the two years that this economy was shut

down for that pandemic, but jonathan ashworth really appreciate you coming on and talking through your plans. we'll see if we can, analyse precisely how that will go. jonathan ashworth, thank you very much. i'm delighted to be joined now by the professor of economics and public policy at king's college london, jonathan portas. and jonathan, what did you make of what the other jonathan had to say just a moment ago? that all of these extra this, this, this, the labour party can avoid these cuts simply through generating more growth almost immediately, well, i think that is implausible. >> i mean, as you implied , it is >> i mean, as you implied, it is unrealistic to imagine that either party is going to increase nhs spending, whether that's on junior doctors pay or repairing crumbling hospitals, or keeping up with technological progress at the rate that they've set out in their spending plans. so we know that, we will end up spending considerably more money on the nhs in the next parliament, even just to stand still, let alone to improve things compared to

what either party is planning , what either party is planning, so the question is, well, will that money be found through growth, let's hope so. and certainly the particular issues that jonathan ashworth identified about how you might generate growth planning reform, increased investment, most people would agree about that. but it's difficult. it takes time and you do need to have a plan to what you're going to do in the meantime. and if growth for whatever reason, whether your plans run into the sand or because of geopolitical events or whatever doesn't deliver, so the fact that labour in particular, the tories as well, of course, but labour in particular have promised not to put up the major, the major rates of tax, does seem frankly like boxing themselves in in a way which could prove to be very painful for both for them and the country as a whole, over time, goodness me, politicians not being honest. >> what's next? is the pope? is the pope catholic, but but i suppose i want to show you what

rishi sunak had to say defending his plans, he says that actually a lot of savings can be found . a lot of savings can be found. let's have a listen. >> a fully costed manifesto which can deliver tax cuts for people at every stage in their lives. and that is largely funded by making sure that we can find some savings in the growth of the welfare budget. >> now, it's true that the welfare budget has been growing by quite a large degree over the especially since covid rishi sunak suggests that billions in savings can be found by simply reducing that growth rate. is that true , well remember that, that true, well remember that, funnily enough, the figure of £12 billion that the government that that rishi sunak claims is, is, you know, fully costed , is, you know, fully costed, which frankly, is simply a lie. >> there are no such plans, was precisely the same number that actually david cameron promised us, about 7 or 8 years ago, and it simply wasn't delivered because of a combination of, bad policy and poor implementation

of that policy . policy and poor implementation of that policy. in policy and poor implementation of that policy . in fact, the of that policy. in fact, the result of the conservatives attempts to cut the disability benefits budget. and of course, there have been a number of attempts by the conservatives to cut that have have have been actually to increase that budget, so i wouldn't place much faith in that. i think it is reasonable to say that, though, that labour, if they win, will need to do something to contain the growth in the budget on disability benefits. and they've made some, you know, what there is in their manifesto is actually along the right lines, but it's painfully short of detail and indeed of the resources necessary that you needin resources necessary that you need in terms of mental health support, worker, you know, career advice, all the sort of things that we know might, over time work . and again, as you've time work. and again, as you've said, quite correctly , these said, quite correctly, these things do not deliver overnight. >> so in a word , if the labour >> so in a word, if the labour party or indeed the conservative party or indeed the conservative party are going to win more taxes, i think so, yes . taxes, i think so, yes. >> well, jonathan porter, thank you for that, sunny and

optimistic assessment of where we are as a nation. really appreciate it. goodness me. now, i must say that on the previous show , the canterbury show, the canterbury constituency was indeed mentioned in the context of labour candidate rosie duffield. the other candidates in that constituency are luke buchanan hodgman, the social democratic party, louise harvey quirke, the conservative candidate, bridget porter, the reform uk candidate henry stanton for the greens, ross timpson for the liberal democrats . now, after the break, democrats. now, after the break, we'll be taking a look at the clash of political titans. it's bofis clash of political titans. it's boris johnson versus nigel farage, but who has the upper hand? find out

break. welcome back to state of the

nafion welcome back to state of the nation at 820. i'm tom harwood today. nation at 820. i'm tom harwood today . the fairly dull election today. the fairly dull election campaign threatened to burst into life when nigel farage took aim at boris johnson after the former prime minister accused the reform leader of spreading kremlin propaganda. let's have look. >> a man called boris johnson . >> a man called boris johnson. has said that i am morally repugnant . has said that i am morally repugnant. here is boris johnson from 2016. this this is what bofis from 2016. this this is what boris said . from 2016. this this is what boris said. boris from 2016. this this is what boris said . boris blames the boris said. boris blames the european union for war in ukraine. >> shots fired, if you'll pardon the pun . will this be the first the pun. will this be the first of increasingly personal spats between the tories and reform? as we approach polling day or will both sides be calling for a ceasefire? well to discuss this, i'm joined by my panel, the head of communications at the popular conservatives group, annunziata rees—mogg, and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani, aaron, we're going to start with

you . it seems very odd that you. it seems very odd that nigel farage has shifted from talking about the economy or immigration to foreign policy. >> it's very odd indeed. he should be talking about three things migration, migration, migration. sorry for the line, but it's very true. it goes down very well in clacton, 72% of those people voted conservative in the last election . huge in the last election. huge swing. why? principally because of migration and he's talking about a very contentious issue. it seems like a very strange, high risk, low return strategy. so i don't know. that said, he is one of the most intelligent political operators in the country. he is he trying to draw a line between himself and what he would call the uni party? labour and the tories ? is it labour and the tories? is it good political optics for him if he's being attacked by everybody that he's in the headlines? because otherwise i don't really understand what the thinking is. >> yeah. i mean, annunziata, do you think there's much thinking going on here rather than it's a chance to have a pop at boris johnson? >>i johnson? >> i don't actually disagree with anything. >> aaron said that i think he is

taking an opportunity. i think it's a rather strange step to take, i'm reasonably convinced that boris johnson knows a lot more about this issue than nigel farage, but instead of it being an intelligent campaigner , i an intelligent campaigner, i think he's a very astute one. normally he gets it absolutely right. what the british public are thinking about, and this seems a weird misstep from that perspective that the british pubuc perspective that the british public were not on every doorstep going. but what about ukraine? should we have been nicer to putin at any point? should we not have supported nato? it that wasn't the conversation that was going on. and yes, nigel has held this belief since 2014, i believe, is when he first said it. but i don't understand what he thinks it gets him unless it is to divide the two main parties, unless we're being too cynical

here and trying to find political operation and focus groups and polling. >> and what if it's just what he believes it might well be, but that doesn't stop it being an unusually massive misstep from nigel and aaron. i mean, it sounds like something that jeremy corbyn might cook up. the idea that nato is getting too big, that that encouraged vladimir putin. after all, that didn't go down too well for jeremy corbyn in 2019. >> he never said anything like that. on the campaign trail. that's the funny thing. you know, jeremy corbyn would like to get rid of trident. he would like ultimately for britain to leave nato. he doesn't believe in the western alliance, etc, etc. he never said those things publicly when the spotlight was on him. so i do find it. i do find it strange and farage has had so much momentum, so much wind in his sails. it really is puzzling. you're right. he's a shoot. he's coming. this isn't something a cunning politician would do. yes, he believes it and he's more than welcome to believe it. we live in a free society. he can have that view. but the idea that he would want to put a spotlight on it for several days, when we're a week

away from a general election puzzles me. but. >> but you probably agree with him, don't you? >> no, i don't agree with him. no, no, no, i don't agree. >> and it's not just that we're a week away from a general election and it is, what, a week and three days? but it's that postal votes have already landed that 25, approximately percent of the vote will be voting today, tomorrow, and this is it has turned into suddenly the biggest issue . and is it one he biggest issue. and is it one he needed? what was the motivation? because i do actually think he's an astute politician . i an astute politician. i completely disagree with him on this issue . so i think that the this issue. so i think that the weakness of the west enabled putin and emboldened putin in 20 1415 varne, to invade crimea. >> and yet are we doing precisely what we're accusing nigel farage of doing, which is misreading the public mood ,

misreading the public mood, misreading the public mood, misreading what the polling says? and i'm not talking about uk support for ukraine. that is a high according to every poll i'm talking about how much of the public actually pays attention to these political disputes. yougov, the pollster, does a tracker of all issues in the election campaign, the highest political issue that people have noticed in the last three days is the tory betting scandal. and even on that, there's 17% of people could cite it. >> so if nigel wants to win , let >> so if nigel wants to win, let the two big parties destroy themselves . this the two big parties destroy themselves. this is a bizarre headune themselves. this is a bizarre headline for him to be grabbing that boris johnson does still have his supporters, particularly on the issue of ukraine. and it's an odd one to weigh into this when he had no need to. he could have carried on with his cool strategy that seemed to be working very well. i think an awful lot of it is misguided and but it seemed to be going in the direction he

wanted. why involve this goodness me. >> well, i suppose we'll have to look at the polls to see if this does create a sort of ceiling for reform support, but much more to discuss. do stay with me, because, let's just have a quick look at the candidates in clacton. standing against nigel farage is giovanni wasu, nepal labour party candidate giles watling for the conservative, matthew bensalem for the liberal democrats. nigel farage for reform uk, natasha osborne for the green party, craig jamieson for the climate party, tony mac and independent tassos papanastasiou for the heritage party, and andrew pemberton for ukip. yes, they do still exist. well after the break we'll be addressing the transgender row that has reignited following the labour party's suggestion that it seeks to make gender transitioning much easier. but will it have any effect on their electoral chances? find out shortly

welcome back to state of the nation. 8:31. i'm tom harwood now. has the labour party opened a transgender politics can of worms? labour's bridget phillipson said that the guidance on what pupils can and cannot be taught about gender will be reviewed if the labour party win the election . speaking party win the election. speaking yesterday, the shadow education secretary refused to say if labour would maintain a newly announced ban on teaching what kemi badenoch calls gender ideology. phillipson simply said there are trans people within society and their existence should be recognised. however, today the labour party's leader, sir keir starmer, appeared to contradict his shadow education minister, saying no, i'm not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender clear , in our schools on gender clear, what's going on? i'm delighted to be joined now by teacher and journalist debbie hayton. and debbie, first of all, what was the change that kemi badenoch announced ? just to get the

announced? just to get the context of where we are in this fairly confusing debate? >> well, it was, kemi badenoch. and gillian keegan, the education secretary, and they announced, well, the, the announced, well, the, the announced the consultation on a policy which will stop children being taught that there's 103 genders and you can you can choose which one from the smorgasbord. and if you haven't got a gender identity, then perhaps you should go and find one. >> and this was mid—concert in the election sort of broke through that process . and now through that process. and now the labour party are saying that they might not necessarily restart it were they to get into office. yes. >> clearly it was something that caught bridget phillipson out, i suspect, and she wasn't clear on what labour will do. and it just bnngs what labour will do. and it just brings a lot of uncertainty to the classroom. it brings a lot of uncertainty to teachers. we need a bit more certainty to teachers in what we should be teaching children and what we should not be teaching children. >> i think everyone can agree that certainty is very good in this debate, where clearly there's been a lot of uncertainty and people don't really know what to say. a lot of the time. one of the big concern from some campaigners

about legislation like this, new rules like this for schools is it harks back to what was known as section 28, brought in in the late 1980s, which, said that you can't promote homosexuality in schools and the problem with that was that then teachers sort of thought, goodness me, what counts as promoting homosexuality? how far do we go? and basically what happened were books was taken out of libraries. people felt that they couldn't even discuss that. gay people existed because people were so scared of falling foul of this rule. sometimes new rules can be more ambiguous and more harmful, even if they're intended to clear things up. >> yeah , but the analogy with >> yeah, but the analogy with section 28 of the 1980s, i think is false. so homosexuality never put children on puberty blockers, never had teenage girls amputate their breasts . girls amputate their breasts. that's been happening. and this is this. these ideas have been promoted in schools that children will be happier if they delayed their puberty. >> there were similar arguments, though, around gay people and pubuc though, around gay people and public toilets around gay people and children. i mean, there are very similar themes towards the

debate and the discussions that we hear now around transgender people . people. >> yes, but what we see here is children potentially being harmed by by an ideology which tells them that they may well be the opposite sex, and they may or they may be happier at being the opposite sex. and it's not true, tom, people have a biological sex, and that needs to be the basis of what we teach the foundation is the risk here, though, that with new rules coming in for schools, teachers might be overzealous, afraid of being sued, afraid of being cracked down upon by a government , and therefore simply government, and therefore simply not mention that transgender people exist at all. >> is that a risk? well, my students know that a transgender person exists because i teach them , but what's happening, what them, but what's happening, what happens is that teachers go into , education. i'm there to teach physics. my colleagues are there to teach maths. my other colleagues are there to teach english, these issues, we teachers do not know a lot about these things. and when the government, under a previous iteration of the rsc guidelines, said that we must teach about

gender identity, that's religious sex and education, relationships, relationships , relationships, relationships, education, we must teach about gender identity. there was no resources in school to do that. and a vacuum appeared and then there were various activist groups. stonewall being one, mermaids being another. we're quite happy to deliver materials into schools. >> and one of the big concerns about that is parents couldn't see the materials that were being shown to children. some arguments were made around copyright and all the rest of it. i mean, i suppose , some of it. i mean, i suppose, some of these reforms proposed by gillian keegan and kemi badenoch wanted to make sure that parents could see that material . well, could see that material. well, do we know what the labour party has said if they would continue that at the very least? >> well, it's unclear what the labour party thinks. i don't i don't think the labour party really understands the situation. that is the problem. and i don't think they understand the issues that they're talking about. >> and just very lastly, the labour party has also said it wants to make the process of getting a gender recognition certificate easier. originally, they supported self id like nicola sturgeon did in scotland, but they've moved from that to

sort of this halfway house between the panel of doctors and lawyers that exists now and a total free for all just one doctor. >> well, one doctor, but who and without a second opinion and a doctor, which would be taking a fee perhaps from the patient, and if a doctor will write what the patient wants them to write, they collect their fee. there is no second opinion, there's no no second opinion. and no panel of legal experts to see if the procedure has been followed . procedure has been followed. >> do you think that the process now is too legalistic, too much anonymized and focused on panels? >> well , there needs to be >> well, there needs to be a panel to decide whether the legal process has been followed. and that's what actually happens. the process, the process in my view, is, is there if anything, it needs to be tightened up, it's open to abuse, and we need to be looking at why people are applying for a grc and why they need a grc . grc and why they need a grc. >> well, debbie hayden, thank you so much for coming in and talking through those twin issues that no doubt will, i think, be bubbling up in the media if the labour party win the next election. but on to the tories now. the betting scandal

continues to plague rishi sunak as a fourth senior conservative comes under investigation for allegedly placing dozens of bets on the election date, potentially generating thousands of pounds in winnings. nick mason, the conservatives head of data and a herefordshire councillor, denies any wrongdoing. but with two parliamentary candidates also under investigation, is this headache for prime minister potentially gambling away the party's future? see what we did there? well back now to my panel and carter rees—mogg and aaron bastani annunziata. a lot of people just simply can't understand . and what on earth is understand. and what on earth is going on here? >> i think most tories can't understand what's going on here that it seems completely unforgivable that if you've got insider information, you are going out for financial gain from that, and if it was in the city of london, it would be completely illegal. as it happens with gambling, it's not illegal as i've read it or understand it. it is, however, quite clearly the wrong thing to

do. >> very, very stupid. especially mps have a very good wage. they're on £90,000 a year. and these, these mps are allegedly making bets of less than £100. i mean, it's trivial . mean, it's trivial. >> well, i don't want to split hairs on this, because i don't support what they've done. but they're not mps are , of course. they're not mps are, of course. >> of course, no mps exist. the election's been called no . election's been called no. >> and both were just candidates. >> oh, there have been. there has been an mp who's said that he was involved as well. the prime minister's ipp was craig williams. >> fair enough. the other one is just candidate unlikely to win her seat , and just candidate unlikely to win her seat, and the just candidate unlikely to win her seat , and the other two, as her seat, and the other two, as i understand it, are spads. well, spads. the moment that an election is called, lose their jobs, but i've also heard from other spads who are now unemployed, and these are special advisers. special advisers, that you know, it was reasonably noticeable that some weird things were going on so they could have just decisions were being made, things weren't

quite going as they normally expected. so they took an opportunity . opportunity. >> aaron, i mean, this is just the last thing that the prime minister needs. >> you almost feel sorry for him, because he's a relatively competent person in his private life . it seems he's had life. it seems he's had a successful career before politics. and as you said a moment ago, the sums involved are so small. if you were looking at upside of 50 or £100,000, somebody might risk their reputation . you wouldn't their reputation. you wouldn't endorse it, but you understand it. but like you say, it's hundreds of pounds being laid out for potentially a few thousand in return . and there thousand in return. and there are a couple of senior people here. the head of data and, as you said, his most senior parliamentary aide . why sully parliamentary aide. why sully your good name for something so pathetic and trivial? it's extraordinary and i think actually gets to the heart of something deeper, which is that across politics and this is a problem for labour as well as the tories. but it's far worse than the tories right now, partly because i think they've beenin partly because i think they've been in government for 14 years. it's just a complete absence and deterioration of the belief, and

a faith and an idea of public service for public services sake. and i think this really underscores how that has just evaporated. >> michael gove likened this to partygate. and i think that maybe there is something in this, perhaps not in the way that he intended it about this idea of one rule, different rule privilege . the thing that privilege. the thing that i think is perhaps the most analogous is that partygate was mainly about relatively junior advisers and civil servants, doing things and whether or not the prime minister actually knew about them. he ended up carrying the can. i mean, ultimately this seems a bit similar. >> well, ultimately the boss has to carry the can, that is how it is and how it should be. and ultimately, rishi sunak and the chairman of the party are in charge of the employees , and charge of the employees, and they have to take responsibility for the people they've hired and the way in which they behave. you're meant to vet people.

you're meant to vet people. you're meant to make sure they're of good character. et cetera, et cetera, etc. the policeman involved has already been suspended because that is a technical offence, in the performance of your public duties, it is different in a private, sphere. however i think it does go to the heart of the culture that there isn't that answerability there's not that respect, there's not that demand that you are your job is your life, but is that modern life or is that the tory party's fault? >> goodness me, aaron, it does seem that this is going to be particularly looking at those who make up the conservative party, the hundreds of people. there's thousands of people, perhaps , that this party employs perhaps, that this party employs directly or indirectly, after the election, if we're to believe literally any of the polls this is going to be a much diminished party, probably with many fewer people working for it. it's going to change things. >> it's going to change it massively . and i think, to use massively. and i think, to use a metaphor, this is pigs at the

trough, frankly. and the point is the trough is about to shrink quite significantly. and in a way that's possibly a good thing , that when you're a smaller party, you don't have so many sinecures you can't dole out so many jobs and rewards and goodies, and actually you're going to find out who the people are, who care and are committed to it as a project. if this was a few councillors, if this was councillors betting on something happening at a local level, even then it would be extraordinary. the fact has happened at the apex of the government of our country , 68 million people in country, 68 million people in this country. bewildering, bewildering . bewildering. >> well, aaron and annunciator double a, we can call you duracell. all other batteries are available. thank you very much for joining are available. thank you very much forjoining us here on state of the nation. now next i'll be sitting down with the leader of the opposition. that's if some polls are to be believed the next parliament. the liberal democrat leader, sir

welcome back to state of the nafion welcome back to state of the nation at quarter to nine. i'm

tom harwood. now, over the weekend , i sat down with the man weekend, i sat down with the man that some polls suggest could be the next leader of the opposition. yes, sir. ed davey and i spent a day at a chicken farm, followed by a traditional garden dance. it's all very lib dem. i started off by asking him about his comedic stunts that have caught headlines throughout this campaign. here's what he had to say. >> when we've done a number of these stunts, we've had very serious messages. you know, when i fell off the paddleboard in lake windermere, we were part of our campaign to end the sewage scandal, and the conservatives have failed to do that . when have failed to do that. when i came down that slide with all those young people in half term , those young people in half term, we were talking about mental health and how we wanted to look after the mental health of our children and young people. and the conservatives have failed. we have a positive programme to make sure there's a qualified mental health professional in every primary and secondary school. it couldn't be more serious, i'm afraid it's the conservative party who are a bit of a joke and yet what the conservatives are saying is that there are going to be lots of areas in parts of the country like this one, where voting for

the liberal democrats is going to give keir starmer a blank check. >> that's their words. >> that's their words. >> well, it couldn't be more wrong. a vote for a liberal democrat is a vote for a liberal democrat. and we can beat the conservatives in many seats across the home counties here in surrey. we're doing really well in the west country in large parts of rural britain, liberal democrats are doing well . democrats are doing well. frankly, the conservatives have been a failed government and they be a failed opposition to liberal democrats. could be a really strong force in the next parliament. and i think that's much better for the british people rather than a divided , people rather than a divided, failed tory party. >> certainly true. the lib dems could be a strong force according to at least one poll. you're going to be the next leader of the opposition. are you prepared for that? >> i'm not going to take the people for granted. one of my criticisms of the conservatives is for so long they've taken people for granted. they let them down. we're not going to do that. we're going to listen to people put forward our positions on the health and care. a rescue plan for the nhs , our plan to

plan for the nhs, our plan to tackle the sewage scandal, for example, if we have more liberal democrat mps, i think that could transform our politics. >> and to some extent, it often seems that the conservatives and the liberal democrats in this part of the world almost compete with each other to try and stop people building things. is it not the case that perhaps looking at the way that the country has been governed , both country has been governed, both when you were in government and with the conservatives and with the labour party before them? in some ways we have the most regulated and arbitrary system of approving development , and of approving development, and that's holding us back. >> well, the conservative approach, which is really dominated the last few years, has been a developer led approach , and that's caused a approach, and that's caused a lot of reaction to people because they haven't felt that the infrastructure is going along with the housing. they haven't had the social infrastructure in terms of more gp's or school places. they haven't had the physical infrastructure. >> do you think too many things have been built in britain? >> no, ijust have been built in britain? >> no, i just think they've not been built in the right way. and what liberal democrats are saying, let's take a community led approach. if you do that, you can get the houses in the

right sort of houses in the right sort of houses in the right places, and you can get that infrastructure, whether it's the health infrastructure, the education infrastructure or the education infrastructure or the transport or water infrastructure. >> now you're talking about rivers, today, you're talking about pollution. and particularly these chalk streams . and you want to create a new blue flag status . what is that? blue flag status. what is that? >> yeah, i mean, the chalk streams in the uk and particularly in england are very precious. 80% of the world's chalk streams are in england, and some people have called them england's rainforest. so they're really important . and really important. and unfortunately the government and the regulator have allowed the water companies to pump their filthy sewage into it. and we have a solution to that part of our programme to tackle the sewage scandal. and that's saying that we would have blue flag status, that would mean they'd be monitored better. the rules would be tougher , and we'd rules would be tougher, and we'd be sure that if you weren't bathing them any time in the yean bathing them any time in the year, that would be clean blue water. other countries have managed this. don't see why we can't. >> is it not the case that other countries don't have creaking victorian infrastructure either?

and that really in order to stop sewage overflows , it's going to sewage overflows, it's going to be incredibly expensive. we're going to build new, new super sewers in order to have to do that. that's going to cost billions of pounds. >> well, actually, i think there's an awful lot that can be done relatively quickly on some of the worst cases. so you have a big impact quite quickly. but you're right to say that this is going to take a little while to turn around, and there's going to have to be some big investment . what's happened is investment. what's happened is the regulator and the government have been so soft on the water companies, they've allowed them to borrow billions of pounds, pay to borrow billions of pounds, pay their shareholders huge amounts of dividends, pay their executives huge amounts in bonuses and not made the investment that we're talking about. >> the amount they're paying to their executives is tiny , tiny their executives is tiny, tiny compared to the amount that they'd have to invest to overhaul the entire water infrastructure of this country. >> tom, i was talking also about the dividends, and they i think you'll agree they've paid huge amounts of dividends out rather than the investment that was needed. >> mainly to pension funds. >> mainly to pension funds. >> well, actually to lots of different people who've who benefited from that, what they

should have been doing, what theirjob should have been doing, what their job to should have been doing, what theirjob to do was should have been doing, what their job to do was to should have been doing, what theirjob to do was to invest in their job to do was to invest in their job to do was to invest in the infrastructure, just as you said, actually. and i think it's shocking. and i think the british public are shocked and appalled that they've been allowed to make these massive profits pay, take it out of the industry rather than investing. and now i want to make sure that the regulator is tough enough to force them to make that investment. do you think that it's offering, to some extent, easy solutions, saying we can just stop this ? just stop this? >> i mean, this isn't a costed policy in terms of all of the different changes that would need to happen physically to that infrastructure. you're sounding a bit like this is sort of wishful politics. >> no, i don't want to move away from the fact that this will be tough. that's why we want a tough. that's why we want a tough regulator. we want to bnng tough regulator. we want to bring all the powers of the current regulators , which are current regulators, which are dispersed into one new regulator called the clean water authority. we want to invest in new monitors for them to make sure they hold the water companies to account. we want to say to the water companies, if you keep polluting and we're

going to have a sewage tax on your profits, we want to say that the water industry should be restructured so that they have to put public health and the environment ahead of profit. >> can you can you guarantee people's bills will not go up as a result of that? all of those impositions upon these companies, can you guarantee that people's bills really won't go that people's bills really won't 9° up that people's bills really won't go up if they have to spend all that money? >> well, at the moment, the conservative government at ofwat are proposing huge hikes in people's water bills. you're absolutely right. and your plan would be even higher. no, they wouldn't, because i think that a regulator and the government have been really weak on the companies . companies have made companies. companies have made huge amounts of money over the last, you know , several decades. last, you know, several decades. and it's about time that they had to see some of these companies going bankrupt. well, some of these companies need to make sure they're doing the right investment. if they're not prepared to do it, they need to sell it to someone who is. and we our model, which is a mutual model which has been used in other countries, used in many states in of, of america, you know, in north america , the know, in north america, the model we're proposing is used in many places, and it's provided

the investment, the stability, andifs the investment, the stability, and it's sorted out. the water infrastructure so it can be done. >> well. ed davey, thank you very much for sitting down. and thank you also for sharing some of your dance moves a little bit earlier on. >> i don't think i'm going to be ianed >> i don't think i'm going to be invited onto strictly any time sooi'i. 500“. >> soon. >> now, there was ed davey in an engush >> now, there was ed davey in an english country garden and you can't get quite much more liberal democrat than that. notable he wasn't. denying his plans would mean that water bills might have to go up in price, but that's all from me this evening. up next is the one and only patrick christys and patrick. what have you got on the show ? the show? >> yes, i've got a heck of a lot coming your way this evening. we've got a new look studio as well, so make sure you tune in for all of that bit of woke madness. why have taxi drivers been banned from flying the saint george's flag? do you think you get the same thing? if they wanted to do the pride flag orindeed they wanted to do the pride flag or indeed the palestinian flag, i'm not sure. we're also going to be talking about gambling. is it worse than partygate ? and are it worse than partygate? and are labour coming for your kids with trans ideology? it certainly

sounds that way. i've got a heck of a lot more on as well, but you'll have to tune in to find out. are you? >> goodness me. looking forward to it. 9:00 until 11. patrick. thank you very much. well, that's it from me this evening. and that just remains for me to say. it's been a very warm day . say. it's been a very warm day. let's hope that this weather can indeed continue. but do you know what? we've got a little special surprise for you. not only is it sunny, sunny in somerset , we can sunny, sunny in somerset, we can actually find out just how sunny it is across the whole of the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland. here's your weather. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> evening weather update time from the met office here on gb news. many of us having something of a hot spell over the next few days, but nothing exceptional for the time of year and it isn't going to last too long. in fact, already on tuesday we'll see cloud increasing across the northwest from these weather fronts that

are trying to trickle in, but high pressure is dominating for many of us. has been quite cloudy over wales and southwest england today. that cloud breaking up more through this evening . some mist and low cloud evening. some mist and low cloud clinging to the south coast. and there's the cloud. i talked about bringing some patchy rain to the highlands and the western isles through the night. for most, though, a dry night, fine night and a warm one. temperatures holding up 15 or 16 degrees in most urban areas. so yes , it's going to be a warm yes, it's going to be a warm start to tuesday. and by the afternoon we could be topping out at 30 celsius some mist and low cloud still around the coasts in the south, but generally plenty of blue sky here, and a brighter day for south wales and southwest england compared to today. but it will be a duller day for northern ireland, the cloud arriving here through the night and that cloud also getting into the highlands and the western isles for first thing. so a bit of a damp and drizzly start, but some sunshine for eastern scotland and through the central belt, at least initially. but the cloud will increase here as we go through the day. cloud will bubble up also over parts of northern england , and there

of northern england, and there is the likelihood of 1 or 2 very isolated but potentially quite heavy showers over northern england during the afternoon. we'll see a bit of rain also for eastern scotland, maybe a few showers through the central belt, probably brightening up for northern ireland and the west coast of scotland. plenty of hot , hazy sunshine further of hot, hazy sunshine further south, 30 degrees likely. close to london. wednesday again very warm with some sunshine across the south. a bit more mist and low cloud on the east coast, however, so it could be quite grey here, but a brighter day for northern ireland. some sunshine and again across the south and east, with some sunshine temperatures likely to top out around 30 celsius. that's all from me for now . that's all from me for now. goodbye >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on