interview between the leader of the liberal democrats, sir ed davey, and gb news political editor christopher hope. we're fast approaching the one week mark till the general election last week, we interviewed sir keir starmer as part of our vote 2024 the leaders series and today we bring you sir ed davey. >> i'm not proud of every vote i made in that, and the decisions of that government . of that government. >> some regrets there, but also some confessions on election results in the past when you were an mp. >> well, very few. i've never bet on myself. well, as new polling suggests, the lib dems will become the official opposition. >> is this what we can really expect? >> i think we need a trade deal, and we need a trade deal really quickly. >> well, with me to discuss this, we will have voices from each of the three major political parties with reaction from the home secretary, james cleverly, later on. we've got a cracking show lined up tonight. but first, here's the . news.

but first, here's the. news. >> just after 7:00, the latest news headlines from the gb newsroom and a new poll out within the last hour has predicted the conservatives are set to lose most of their parliamentary seats and will likely have fewer seats than the liberal democrats, who will become the official opposition. the new poll from electoral calculus forecast that labour will win 450 seats. the lib dems 71 seats and the conservatives 60 seats. it's likely as well the reform party will win around 18 seats, including those of nigel farage, richard tice and lee anderson. the forecast labour victory would be larger than tony blair's landslide in 1997, and be the largest win by any party in modern parliamentary history, except for back in 1931. the 60 seats,

the conservatives are likely to get. according to this poll, could be their worst result since at least 1900. well, today the scotland secretary, alister jack, insisted he hadn't broken any rules after he admitted to placing three bets on the date of the election . the cabinet of the election. the cabinet minister said he had no inside knowledge of when the election would take place, despite previously bragging he'd made more than £2,000 on the bet. later, he dismissed that as a joke. mrjack becomes later, he dismissed that as a joke. mr jack becomes the seventh person to become embroiled in the scandal with just a week until voters head to the polls . the labour leader, the polls. the labour leader, sir keir starmer, says the tories have taken too long to deal with the scandal. >> i made very clear that if any of my candidates were being investigated in relation to the gambling commission, i would remove them straight away, which is what i've done. that's in a sharp contrast to rishi sunak, who took days and days and days before he took action as a wider

story here about the choice that the general election next week between carrying on with what we've had for the last 14 years or so, the inaction by rishi sunakis or so, the inaction by rishi sunak is just absolutely in keeping with the way that they've governed for 14 years, or turning the page and starting to rebuild the country . to rebuild the country. >> early morning calls to gp practices in an effort to lock in limited appointments could become a thing of the past. under plans to bolster the nhs app' under plans to bolster the nhs app, labour says its plan would see the app updated to encompass several health professionals, including gps, physiotherapists and dentists, to make securing and dentists, to make securing an appointment simple and easy. it's not being clear how old people will access this app, the party says 5 million people tried to and failed to get a gp appointment every month last year. appointment every month last year . the liberal democrats have year. the liberal democrats have announced a plan to give every cancer patient a dedicated specialist nurse, to support them through their treatment. it would see nearly 3500 new nurses

recruited across england, doubung recruited across england, doubling the existing workforce. by doubling the existing workforce. by the end of the next parliament. the party's leader, sir ed davey, says it's a critical step towards fixing the nhs. that's the news. for the latest stories head to gb news .com/ alerts . .com/ alerts. >> thank you very much, polly. well welcome to the second interview in our vote 2020 for the leaders interview series. earlier today, our gb news political editor, christopher hope , spoke to the leader of the hope, spoke to the leader of the liberal democrats, sir ed davey . liberal democrats, sir ed davey. >> sir ed davey, thank you for joining us today on gb news. is it time to ban politicians from betting on politics? >> i really think we need to review the whole of gambling regulation with respect to politics, and i really hope after the election that's what the new government and parliament gets behind, there's got to be much greater transparency and clarification about what is possible and

what's not possible. i think people are confused , except in people are confused, except in this particular case, i don't think there's any black and white. in this particular case, people literally went to the conservative. the conservative people appear to i mean , let's people appear to i mean, let's see the gambling commission's inquiry. but from what we heard, we hear from the media and elsewhere, people went into a room in number 10, were told the date of the general election. then when out of that room, placed a bet on it. so we don't know that i made it clear that's what we appear. and do you know what? i think people know that if you place a bet and you know the outcome of that, that is just clearly wrong. but you've performed politics well, yeah. place your bet. i've never. i haven't bet on this election. no, frankly, i've been to. well, you bet on election results in the past when you're an mp. >> well, very few. >> well, very few. >> i've never bet on myself, but what i'd like is, is this review in gambling regulations on politics. so we can clarify that sort of thing. you know, this,

this case of this, labour candidate who , who bet on candidate who, who bet on himself losing , i think he was himself losing, i think he was wrong. and i'd never bet on myself , but there may be myself, but there may be candidates in the past, maybe candidates in the past, maybe candidates this election. you've done similar to him. and what liberal democrats want to do is make sure that all the rules around that are completely clarified. yeah, we'll only do that if we have a full review of the regulation on gambling in politics. although, just to be clear , what happened in 10 clear, what happened in 10 downing street is so far it appears, goes beyond that review. that was clearly wrong. if you bet on something and you know the outcome , that is wrong, know the outcome, that is wrong, okay, looking at a whole campaign you've had great fun. >> we last saw you at, thorpe park. what do you think subpostmasters make of you clowning around? >> well, listen, my heart's gone out to subpostmasters about what's happened with this. the worst miscarriage of justice in

british history . over horizon, british history. over horizon, and i've said sorry for the mistakes i made when i was a minister, when i didn't see alan bates straight away. and then when i did see him as the first minister to see him, putting his case to the post office and not seeing through the lies that they told to me other ministers, some most bastards. and to the courts, so i hope they understand that i'm campaigning now, both for, constituents of mine who are subpostmasters who were , who were involved in this. were, who were involved in this. i had a really, really tough time, i'm campaigning for compensation. compensation for all subpostmasters affected , far all subpostmasters affected, far more generous, far more quickly. and i, i supported this inquiry, which is so important to get to the bottom of it. so i hope they've heard that . what i would they've heard that. what i would say on terms of, the stunts, if you like, is that in my role as leader of the party, to make sure people, both notice what we're doing and also every time linking something quite serious. so i think in politics, in

politics, particularly , people politics, particularly, people are so disillusioned that they don't want politicians to take themselves too seriously, but they do want politicians to address their serious problems. and when i came down that slide in somerset, it was fun. i agree, but we were releasing our policy on mental health, mental health for children and young people, there's no link between the two, which is millie , you're the two, which is millie, you're getting a nice picture. well, i think it was actually okay, because, you know, outdoor activity, fun with families. that's for great mental health. but what we were saying was, you know, the social media companies, the social media giants, they should pay more. what we call digital services tax. that should fund a full time mental health professional in every primary. and secondary school. so we link that to that stunt just in the way we link the stunt. when i fell off that paddleboard once, intentionally, four times by mistake. into lake windermere, that was about sewage. the sewage scandal. so we're trying to link the two. >> okay, here's your manifesto. we're there to cover the launch

of it. was the ideological thread running through this? it strikes me that you are different things in different parts of the country. you're kind of attacking the tories or attacking labour wherever you are. i mean, if you define liberalism in a tweet , how would liberalism in a tweet, how would you for us, we want a fair deal. >> that's what it's called on the manifesto, a fair deal, whether it's on the health service within the economy with some things like the environment and but liberalism, if you were wanting to ask me for, for the grand, analysis, i think we want to empower people to be the best they can. so we want them to have good health services. so that's not getting in the way of working and being the best they can. we want to make sure children have the best start in life. that's empowering people, making sure they have the chance that the businesses have the chance to thrive. that's empowering people. but we also, and this may be different from some of the parties we want to hold the already powerful to account people. i think are fed up of some big business. not all, but some like the water companies getting away with pumping their filthy sewage or, you know, some of the post

office. well, the post office, indeed, the post office were need to be held to account to. i'm very much in favour of that, and what i'd also say is, you know, the scandals of the post office, you could link them to the scandals with respect to contaminated blood to hillsborough, where people lied. and we've got to hold those people to account better. we need to change the system . and need to change the system. and that's one thing that liberal democrats are very different from others. we want to change the system, not just the electoral system, but we want to make sure that people who, lie, get, get found out. and it's about local champions. >> you saying here, don't you? because you don't want to be prime minister or you want to be, but you can't be or will you be? >> well, listen, when i took over the liberal democrats, we'd had three poor elections, there's no that's beyond that, and so i'm focusing on what, where i think we can win and we can win in many seats. okay. and to be honest, i'm really quite excited about this election. i'm very grateful to those people who were thinking of voting labour and green, but realise that they're in an area like here in chelmsford, they can't

win and only the liberal democrats can beat the conservatives. and chris, this is so different from other elections. we're hearing people from people who've always voted conservative their whole families have always spoken. tory seats 17,000 majority here in chelmsford. and they're saying they're not going to do it this time . now, some of them it this time. now, some of them might not vote, might go back to tories eventually, might vote reform. a lot of them are voting liberal democrat. and i'm very grateful for them. and i want to in the in the days that remain, i want to explain our health policies are relevant to them and their families. our care policies are relevant to them and their families, whether it's on personal care, whether it's on personal care, whether it's on cancer. i just hope, those people who have always voted tory conservative give us a chance. >> just some quick questions about the policies here. page 122. in your policy document, you want to rejoin the eu single market. when and what? after that the customs union to it? >> probably not. in this coming parliament, to be honest, the relationship between the uk and europe has been so badly 20, 35, it's impossible to put a date on

it. here's, here's why we've got to rebuild that relationship. the conservatives have been in conflict with our european partners, which is quite sad. they've been our allies. they're our friends, their nearest neighbours. and when we insecure world, when putin is invading ukraine, when you've got things like illegal criminal gangs operating globally, with cybercrime and human trafficking, you have to work internationally. so we want to rebuild that relationship to keep people in our country safer and more prosperous. and that will take some time in your lifetime. >> do you want to see britain back in the eu ? back in the eu? >> listen, because you've got a lot of work to do to even be able to contemplate something like that. i wouldn't you wouldn't even get that far. listen, i'll tell you one thing we can do. let me be frank with you. i think we need a trade deal you. i think we need a trade deal, and we need a trade deal really quickly. our economy is being hurt by the awful trade deal the conservatives concluded with our european partners, our farmers are being here. our fishermen are being here. our exports are imports are being here. actually, people are being hit by high prices in the shops.

so we've got to have a trade deal so we've got to have a trade deal. it can't be the single market. i've talked to european politicians that's not on the table, what we can do though is a much better trade deal mutually beneficial. and i think that would really help revive our economy, get the growth we need and help bear down inflation to, well, to get the reaction to that interview, i'm joined by a superstar panel . joined by a superstar panel. >> we've got the reds, we've got the blues, we've got the yellows all in the studio with me. so former environment secretary george eustice, former liberal democrat minister norman baker and former labour mep and mp shaun simon. lovely to see you this evening, gents. first of all, come on, be honest . who's all, come on, be honest. who's placed bets on political matters in the past i never have, actually, i tried to bet on myself in 97, but i couldn't get anyone to take the bet, which is anyone to take the bet, which is a great shame because i ended 123 years of tory rule in lewes. in favour of yourself, norman, or betting against yourself? >> yes, for myself it's slightly odd, isn't it, to be betting against yourself in a constituency, sean? >> well, no, i mean, i think

it's quite understandable. it's kind of, you know, it's emotional insurance, isn't it? it's like, yes, if you lose the election, at least you win the bet. fair enough. you can see why somebody would do it. although i'm not saying it was a good idea. >> no george ever had a flutter. >> no george ever had a flutter. >> no, no, i've got to be honest, whenever elections have been called, i've always been so busy thinking, you know, how on earth do we win this? or make sure we hold to on power that i haven't really thought it hasn't crossed my mind. >> i mean, this is the problem, isn't it, for the tories that they should have been focused on they should have been focused on the election and not doing other things, but fair enough. let's talk then about this polling and whether you find it credible. so as i just explained earlier, we've got electoral calculus. to be fair, this poll was conducted before this interview and therefore ed davey won't be aware of the results. but he will be now electoral calculus, which is carried out this mrp poll with thousands of people asked, has got the following seat predictions. so the conservatives to down 60. the labour party on 450 seats, the libs on 71. so that would then place sir ed davey as the opposition leader. reform on 18 and then greens for snp 24 plaid cymru four and others one. so

the big takeaways there are this nofion the big takeaways there are this notion that we're going to wake up on july the 5th and say, ed davey will be opposition leader. sean, do you think that's credible ? credible? >> no, no it's not. i mean, these mrp polls, it's a it's a new kind of polling and they they come out with quite wildly different results. they all show labour winning comfortably. but there's a lot of variation at there's a lot of variation at the extremes. this is quite far down the extreme end. i think the conservatives will be the second party, the lib dems will be third and the reform probably won't get any seats at all. >> well, we don't know because, this is an unchartered water we're in now and the tories are in freefall. and who knows where the votes are going to go. i mean, certainly around in the south of england, it's abc, anyone but conservatives and people are working out how to vote. what i would say is that the first past the post system benefits disbenefits us. normally, as lib dems, but it does benefit, as in this sort of election where you can concentrate your votes. and actually, my belief genuinely is that the conservative vote in the south, which is full of

people who are business people affected by brexit, who want pubuc affected by brexit, who want public services to work properly, okay, and so on. actually, they're more likely to vote against the conservatives this time than perhaps the conservatives in the north are. >> we'll get on to first past the post and proportional representation in a minute, because i think he also talks about whether he'd worked with farage on that. we'll get to that in a moment. george counteract that from norman. i mean, 60 seats, that would be absolutely catastrophic if this poll is right, then there's no silver lining in it. >> obviously, for the conservatives. but i think sean's right. we're seeing a number of these polls and they're showing quite varied results. mrp polls are typically showing anything from, you know, 50 seats for us, up to about 150 seats. so it's quite a range there. and the truth is we don't know. and there have been elections in the past. i think 1992 was one where the pollsters have turned out to get it wrong. and that's because every time they do a lot of funny weighting, they have to wait a poll to make it representative. sometimes they get that wrong and because they go like a flock of sheep, they tend to try and make sure that they're not

outliers and that their polls are roughly consistent. so we don't know. we may wake up on on polling day and it could still be a bad defeat for us, but it's, you know, we might be south of 200, but over 150 or over 150 will feel like a good result, won't it? well, it will now , given these polls, i think now, given these polls, i think there's another thing. actually, i'm, i'm a little bit concerned about. we've always had polls in elections, but it's not long ago that the times got into trouble for having an mrp style poll published during an election, because of course, on on election day itself. yeah, there's a very strict rule around the publication of exit polls, because there's a worry that you might influence somebody going to the polls at 8:00 in the evening. and here we are with these polls predicting seat by seat with 19,000 samples over quite a long period. >> these techniques have. come on, sean, do you think it's fair for ed davey to be copying all of this criticism for not meeting with alan bates? sir alan bates, the postmaster, those years ago? i mean , those years ago? i mean, apparently, according to quite a few candidates, i've spoken to, it does keep on coming up on the doorstep. >> i don't know if it's fair. i

think it's inevitable. you know, it's the as he said in his interview, it's the it's the biggest miscarriage of justice even biggest miscarriage of justice ever. and, you know, he's in the frame, i, i actually i understand given speaking not just as our former colleague, a distinguished colleagues, but as a former minister myself, as the other two are as well, i can understand if you, you're presented with something that you're told is a terrible miscarriage of justice, you put it to a great british institution, they tell you absolutely, categorically . point absolutely, categorically. point blank, that's absolutely not the case. we absolutely guarantee that it's wrong. i understand the minister who says, well, i know, but maybe the criticism is that quite a few people showed a lack of curiosity , not least lack of curiosity, not least when journalists have been writing about this for decades . writing about this for decades. >> norman, let's just bring you in briefly before we go to the break, and then we'll catch the second half of this interview just on this whole idea of rejoining the eu. can you put a

timeline on that? do you think the liberal democrats will continue to push for that, not just in this parliament, but possibly 2029? >> what i do know is that the population at large now, if the polls are to be believed in different polls on this occasion, actually think brexit was a mistake and the majority want to come back into the eu at some point. but if they have to accept free movement, well, that's a that's a tough one. and as ed says, nothing's going to happenin as ed says, nothing's going to happen in the short term or even the medium term because there's a lot of rebuilding to do. but what i do know is we've lost 4% of gdp as a consequence of brexit, and that's damaging our businesses. all right. >> hold that thought. thank you very much to everyone on my panel very much to everyone on my panel. we're going to be coming back to you again shortly. up next, it's going to be the second part of our 1 to 1 interview with sir ed does he regret for the bedroom tax? would

welcome back to vote 2020 for

the leaders with me. camilla tominey. just before the break, we heard the first part of the interview with the leader of the liberal democrats, sir ed davey. he talked about the fact that he had placed a few bets in the past, but not on the outcome of an election. he talked about how he appreciated and apologised for failing to meet with sir alan bates, the subpostmaster who has led that campaign, on behalf of those who were served that miscarriage of justice. and he talked about the liberal democrats desire to seek closer alignment with the eu. well, let's take a listen now at part two, just elsewhere, you want to look at, reinstate maintenance grants for disadvantaged children, look at student finance. >> would you to vote increase tuition fees in the next parliament? >> that's not in our manifesto. what we're saying in our manifesto about student finance is the maintenance grants that the conservatives took away from the conservatives took away from the system, that when we were influencing it, they've got to be restored and but we insisted on higher maintenance grants. but the tories took them away.

and that's meant that people from poorer backgrounds have been less able to go to university . so what we're saying university. so what we're saying in our manifesto as our priority for student finance is restoring those. would you vote to increase tuition fees? it's not increase tuition fees? it's not in our manifesto. will you vote to increase tuition? >> want to say yes or no? yeah. no. >> well , it no. >> well, it might well happen in the next parliament. >> you well. >> you well. >> no no, no, it'll be really clear. we are campaigning not just for this election, but after election. according to that manifesto, you go into the election seeking a mandate and you may not silent on tuition fees. >> the big thing that affects so many students, we won't need to. >> if you have maintenance grants, we run our economy properly, we need the universities need more money. let's let's be really clear on that. and we want to grow our economy so they can get more money. but i don't think it all the money has to come from overseas. >> bedroom tax pays 52. you say you'll scrap it but you voted to bnng you'll scrap it but you voted to bring it in in 2011. in june 2011 and you missed two votes as an as an mp and member of the coalition government in february

2012 and february 2014. so you voted to bring in the bedroom tax, but you want to scrap it in this document? why? >> well, chris, i fought the conservatives all my life in my back then. well, no. let me i want to ask you a question, i promise. okay, and i fought them in coalition sometimes i won, sometimes democrats won. we made them do things they didn't want to do. like give free school meals to infants. george osborne didn't want to do that. we stopped them, when they wanted to really, cut welfare benefits, even more, but we weren't able to win everything. and the bedroom tax got through. i'm not proud of every vote i made in that, and the decisions of that government, but we want to reverse that . we're standing. reverse that. we're standing. you regret that support ? well, you regret that support? well, what i want to do is get that that election manifesto implemented. if we can implement liberal democrat ideas, we can make a much fairer country. and we want a fair deal, as it says on the cover, a fair deal on net zero pay 24. >> you want to bring in, you introduce a new chief secretary for sustainability in the treasury. is that a minister or

an official is a minister? >> we want in the cabinet. yeah. we want them to be held to account for how we go about getting net zero different to, to a to a climate change minister or secretary or. well, i wonder what. >> well, i've observed over a years in politics that unless you get the treasury on side, you get the treasury on side, you don't take action. >> so that's what thinking champion in the treasury. yeah, it has to be champion. and but let me say this to your viewers, i was proud that the liberal democrats quadrupled britain's renewable power and got the price of renewable power down, made britain the world leader in offshore wind, renewable power, which liberal democrats have been the champions. the most successful party in british politics on is now the most popular and the cheapest form. so if you want to have cheaper energy bills in the future, vote liberal democrat . liberal democrat. >> okay? on cannabis, a legally regulated market for cannabis, this document says. will this lead to cannabis addled zombies roaming the streets? to use a tabloid headline? i mean, also

what you want you did, though, didn't you, for, the gradual removal of the right to smoke for over 16. so how does that tally with. >> yeah, well, i'm glad you asked. let me let me take you through that first on, on our, policy on, on cannabis, we want to get rid of the very potent. yes, health damaging cannabis. the skunk is often called. we want to get it out. >> herbals. okay. >> herbals. okay. >> but. yeah. so. so a regulator market like they've done in many states in the united states, canada and european countries , canada and european countries, that's found to, help young people actually , it means that people actually, it means that the resource is going to be put on the criminal gangs, these really nasty people selling their misery. we want to crack down on them. and that's a sensible evidence, led way of doing it. you mentioned the smoking. i'm very happy to come to that . i, i, i'm not in here, to that. i, i, i'm not in here, is it. no. because it was a free vote. yeah. and some of my colleagues voted different ways. i tell you what i voted for what rishi sunak was putting forward and i haven't often said that in my life. i voted it because i, i looked at what, my life has been

like, i lost both my parents to cancen like, i lost both my parents to cancer. it wasn't smoking related, as it happens, but i know the impact cancer can have on her, on people and it's tough. and when you're seeing children lose their parents from cancen children lose their parents from cancer, that's related tobacco, you sort of feel you have to do something . and as a liberal, something. and as a liberal, i struggled with this, but i came to that conclusion, and is it, is it consistent with what we're saying on cannabis? it is actually because in cannabis, as i've said, we're taking out the really harmful stuff. the skunk. which is damaging to children and young people's health. we want to really make sure that that is, outlawed . but the, the that is, outlawed. but the, the stuff that isn't, so potent is okay. and that's the same thing with respect to smoking the, the cigarettes that are so damaging that they will have to, to go of course, in my, my own personal view, but i think nicotine that's in vaping, for example, we're not going to ban understood . understood. >> just take a step back. i

thank you for your time today, you might end up working with minor parties, the one led by nigel farage. will he be happy doing that in the next parliament? >> i share no values at all. the liberal democrats share no values at all with nigel farage and reform . he's every right to and reform. he's every right to even on defence. >> on defence you're quite aligned. >> well, i mean, i think he was, being an apologist to putin, which is probably the most important defence and security issue facing our country. the liberal democrats have, i think, been one of the strongest parties saying we need to stand by ukraine. and when i go round our country, cities and towns and villages, i see british people, with the british flag and the ukrainian flag, i think they're a true patriot is behind ukraine and is against putin. and i can't understand why there's politicians, like him are in favour of putin. >> this very finally quick questions here gary lineker or gary scal southgate. who do you support . support. >> well gareth southgate, he's

in charge. >> and last night you were in the palace. you were in the japanese state banquet. if you could take home one souvenir from the banquet, what would it been ? been? >> you should know what the flower arranging was . amazing, flower arranging was. amazing, my wife and me commented on that. let me. i can let you into a little secret. oh no. >> if they think you cien you. me? >> well, a wonderful late queen, she you spend. there's probably a budget for this. she should spend it on an extra dessert of pineapple, and i think the king decided that he'd rather spend that money on flowers . and i that money on flowers. and i hope i'm not giving away a secret. i'm not supposed to. but the flowers were absolutely beautiful. normal? well, i think a bit more money has been spent on them rather than pineapples. >> sir davey in a park here in essex. thank you for joining >> sir davey in a park here in essex. thank you forjoining us. essex. thank you for joining us. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> our interview with all the leaders on gb news. thank you. thank you. >> well there we have it. like the flower arrangements at buckingham palace last night. let me bring in my superstar panel again george eustice former environment secretary, former environment secretary, former liberal democrat minister norman baker , former labour mep norman baker, former labour mep and mp shaun simon. now let's

think legalising cannabis a good idea . norman, you were once the idea. norman, you were once the minister in charge of drugs. >> i was and the policy, which is in the lib dem manifesto, was the one i was trying to push through in government as a matter of fact, i conducted a study of international comparators demonstrating that the policy, which we've had since 1971, in this country, wasn't working. it was necessary to treat drugs as a health issue, not as a criminal issue. and those countries which do so have lower drug use. and it's absolutely right that what it says, if you actually have a state control system, you can then sell cannabis, which is controlled, which is less harmful, and you can get skunk off the market. and that makes a lot of sense, although it hasn't decriminalising cannabis been unked decriminalising cannabis been linked to a quite a lot of lawlessness in some american states. >> george, what do you think ? >> george, what do you think? >> george, what do you think? >> well, i think this has been looked at several times by government and the concern always is i mean, there's a there's a legitimate point, which is that, the higher strength skunk is what should be targeted, as a point of law

enforcement . but the worry enforcement. but the worry always is that it's the signal that it sends. if you decriminalise one part of the market, it sends a wider signal on drugs and the concern is always that you'll actually see an uptick in in use. so it's i think, you know, it's not an illegitimate point to raise. and he's absolutely right. i think about targeting the higher strength skunk as a point of enforcement. but i think when it's been looked at before, governments have always stepped back from it just because of the wider signal it sends sean, i think it's a discussion that we should keep having, and i think we should have a grown up and sensible discussion about it. personally, i don't feel like we've quite reached that point yet, and i don't feel like the country is at that point yet, but i don't think it should be as it used to be, something that we're not allowed to talk about. >> i call for the legalisation of medicinal cannabis when i was in government. much to theresa may's horror as home secretary, i might say. and to my astonishment, the daily mail, the sun and the press all by and large agree with me on that point. >> yeah. okay, let's talk about the liberal democrats not

sharing any values at all with nigel farage. is that the right thing to say? i mean, there are quite a few old labour voters in the red wall that supported bofis the red wall that supported boris johnson and by association must have quite supported nigel farage, at least on the issue of brexit. >> i wasn't sure if that was, if that was pure political calculation, because that's where, ed davey feels like his votes come from , well, because votes come from, well, because that's where he feels like his votes come from. >> but if he wants or whether it's tories, he's going to have to appeal to leavers as well as remainers, isn't he? >> i wasn't sure if it was actually his personal distaste. he looked very contemptuous when he said it. yes but you know, there are a very large number of people in this country, who do share a lot of values with nigel farage. so what is ed davey saying to them, george? well, i mean, of course he would work with him on some things like proportional representation if it ever came up to that, maybe

later, but i'm not sure he would because they've both got the same positions and opposition parties, you know, will work together and vote in the same lobbies when they've got a shared interest. but, you know, overall, obviously the liberal democrats come from a, you know, a very different perspective to nigel farage and i suppose he doesn't think many of his voters would consider voting nigel farage, though he's he's just doubled down and made that point. >> norman not working with nigel farage. that's not very liberal or democratic, is it? >> well, i mean, if nigel was liberal and democratic, it would be rather peculiar, wouldn't he? rather different. but look, i mean, i think it's right he that was a personal opinion. he expressed there. it was personal distaste. it wasn't a calculation as to why the voters are going to respond. and actually, i think that's rather welcome. he gave a straight answer to a straight question. >> fair enough. all right. thank you very much indeed to my panel this up up next, we're going to go live our political editor,

welcome back to vote 2024. the leaders with me. camilla tominey before the break, we heard the second part of gb news interview with the leader of the liberal democrats, sir ed davey. he was speaking to christopher hope, who i hope can join us now. he's in nottingham because he's in the spin room for the latest and last tv debate between rishi sunak and keir starmer, chris, it's interesting. now we've got this mrp polling from electoral calculus because you didn't know then what you know now. and i'm wondering, is sir ed davey a political leader who is ready, willing and able to serve as leader of the opposition, potentially chris. >> yeah, that's quite something isn't it, camilla. that's right. well, that mrp polling for electoral calculus and find out now which we couldn't rediscuss with sir ed davey before it came out at 5:00, does show the lib dems on 71 seats. they are the leader. he'll be the leader of the opposition. he wouldn't believe his luck. and with that becomes a pay rise for him. he

may not have got if he'd been third place in or third place in the in the election next week, bigger status. it becomes the humanities opposition. it might be the breakthrough moment for lib dems have been waiting for with the tories. they're down on down 60 mps. and of course reform uk on 18. that's so surprising , i thought i was surprising, i thought i was struck by that interview. the when he talked about the issue of subpostmasters, many people are saying what would the subpostmasters make of his clowning around on the election campaign? and he got quite tough there. he linked it as he saw it to the contaminated blood scandal, hillsborough, where people have lost their lives. he saw that the he equated the behaviour of the post office with the wrongdoing in those two scandals, i thought it was a he tried to link his his various, stunts to a serious campaign message. sewage sewer , sewerage, message. sewage sewer, sewerage, sewer issues in in in windermere and mental health on on the funfair and the like. i also had

three times whether he might to vote increase tuition fees that i think will be a big issue of the next parliament, because that £9,000 a year, a year figure will is unlikely to hold, i think. and that will may have to, well, go up. and we challenged them about the bedroom tax, which of course he voted for in 2011. and now wants to act. and he's making very clear his views on nigel farage. we wouldn't want to work with him even if they're both in opposition. so quite a varied interview there with ed davey, i think. but someone who seems very, very relaxed, very ready for next week, he was talking to us in a seat where there's a tory majority of around 15,000. they clearly think they're going to take seats off the tories in the southwest and south of england. the so—called blue wall. and we'll wait and see if that happens . that happens. >> good stuff. christopher. now, do you have james cleverly with you or are we waiting for the home secretary to appear? chris you're just waiting. >> waiting for him to appear. i'm going to. i'll look over my shoulder. >> i know you look cleverly,

liz. he's doing. he may be doing an interview with someone else. all right, let's go to our panel all right, let's go to our panel. and if you do get the home secretary, chris, we'll go back to you in nottingham. well, i'm still joined by shaun simon, former labour mep and mp. norman baken former labour mep and mp. norman baker, former liberal democrat minister, and george eustice, former environment secretary. let's just remind ourselves of some of those key points in the interview. so let's look at what sir ed davey said about the eu. >> first of all, i think we need a trade deal and we need a trade deal really quickly. our economy is being hurt by the awful trade deal is being hurt by the awful trade deal. the conservatives concluded with our european partners, our farmers are being hit, our fishermen are being here, our exporters and importers are being hit. actually, people are being hit by high prices in the shops. so we've got to have a trade deal . we've got to have a trade deal. >> now, george, i know you wanted to come in on that because you're the only, well, the only brexiteer on this panel the only brexiteer on this panel. although i have confessed in columns to supporting the leave side, george, what do you think? i mean, the idea of the liberal democrats sort of trying to undo the referendum result

doesn't strike me, as i've said earlier in this show, as either liberal or democratic. but what's your view? >> no. and they're being very careful, obviously to not say that they would rejoin the single market apart from nothing else. obviously they won't be in government able to do that. and that's a recognition of the reality. but look, i think a labour government would face exactly the same problem, that the current conservative governments face this, this caricature that we sort of threw the table over and stomped out of the eu and wanted to cut ourselves off is actually completely false. we took a democratic decision as a country to leave the european union , to leave the european union, become a self—governing country again. but at that point, we did say to the european union, let's be friends, let's work together. let's have digital processes at the border. let's recognise equivalents in regulation where we can so that we can, you know, work together in partnership. and i'm afraid what happens every single time when you try to have these conversations with the eu. first of all, they demand money. and so when we tried to have a sensible conversation, for instance, about youth mobility scheme, so that young people could travel, the eu came back and said, give us money, we want cash. and when you try and have any kind of

discussion about breaking down some of those regulatory barriers and paperwork for exports and imports , the first exports and imports, the first thing the eu say is we will not accept you setting your own laws and regulations. so we require the right to dictate what british law should be as the price for removing some of these things. and no self—respecting uk government, having now opted for independence, can accept the kind of demands that the eu always put on the table. so i think that the labour government, if there is one, will also find it very, very difficult to make progress on this because, you know, the eu basically they want money, they want fish and they want to be able to dictate what our laws are very, very quickly in response to that. >> shapps really quickly, sean, you're laughing. >> well, it's not i mean, it's not true. the truth is that the tories not just at the at the point of final negotiations, but for years throughout the brexit process, we're incredibly contemptuous and aggressive and scornful of our european partners. and do you think they

don't hear that? do you think it makes no difference? >> it's perfectly true. that point, last point. the other thing is we can't leave things as they are. brexit has been very damaging to our economy. it's a duty of any government coming in to try and remedy that as best they can. >> but michel barnier said this week we can't cherry pick if you want to rejoin. no, we can't cherry pick the eu or any of its institutions. you got to accept free movement. that's not going to be popular on the doorstep. it's not going to be popular on the doorstep. >> so we have to we have to go into a negotiation about it. >> all right. let's have a look now because we're gonna have a discussion about proportional representation at what sir ed davey said about the prospect of working with nigel farage on that campaign. >> i share no values at all. the liberal democrats share no values at all with nigel farage and reform. >> there's a bit of a contradiction here, isn't there? because on one hand, you've had the liberal democrats campaigning for pr for many, many years, but yet when they were in coalition government with the tories, they had to renege on a number of their key pledges. i'm not sure students have forgiven them, sean, for abandoning their pledge to scrap

tuition fees. he was asked repeatedly there by chris hope whether he would vote to scrap them, and he said no because they weren't in the manifesto. so is this something that the lib dems really want? coalition. isn't it better for labour and the lib dems to get together and plan some backstage tactical voting? >> the lib dems and reform desperately, desperately want proportional representation because it's their only chance, as norman knows, because it actually happened to him. his number came up. he was that lucky guy. once in a century, it's their only chance to get into government, but actually keeping nigel out of government is one of the best things about first past the post. you see what's happened in a lot of the rest of europe where proportional systems amplify the reach and the power of people whose politics is actually not in the mainstream. whereas the british system, it pulls us all back to the middle. and that's why we normally hang on a minute. >> if we look at this mrp polling reform's vote share would actually be 18% in return for 18 seats, the liberal

democrats would be much lower, 13% in return for 71 seats. so you're going to get around 18% of the population not feeling that the parliamentary system properly represents them in real life . life. >> so reform is going to get 12% of the vote and no seats. >> that's what's actually happened. >> well, we might hold you to that, sean, 13% of the house of commons is a lot more than 71. there should be a relationship between the number of votes cast and the representation in parliament. we don't have that at the moment, and that's what's wrong with the system. and it's perfectly possible to create pr systems based on those at work. look at germany, for example, at pr since 1945, no problems over there. it's completely different to say in israel, where they've got minority parties running the show. you can design a pr system that works based on what we see around the world, and we should have that fair votes. the votes cast should represent the votes in the house of commons. it doesn't at the moment. >> although george i mean, as we know from the history of broad church conservatism, parties themselves are coalitions. >> absolutely . and so people can >> absolutely. and so people can exaggerate the difference here. the big parties are coalitions. the big parties are coalitions. the conservatives are a coalition of traditional shire

tories, libertarians, free traders at the labour party. you've got the co—operative movement, you've got the blairites. you've got the corbynites. it's always been that way and what are the major parties have to do is work very hard to keep that coalition together in order to be able to get in power and stay in power. so you can exaggerate the difference. the reason i prefer first past the post is that i think it does give you the clarity, generally of single party government, and when you get single party government, they've got lots of other political constraints on them, not least their own internal coalition at least, although, oh, hang on clarity, if the conservatives are reduced to 16% of the vote and are down to 60 seats, you might find the tories backing pr. >> yeah, well, it would depend on who's left. >> it's not impossible. it's not impossible. but i think it's unlikely because the conservative party has got a long standing position and labour party two, especially when they get in power, of basically recognising the value of a single party government.

>> these two want buggin's turn. that's what it comes down to. you know, the best government in the last 20 years was a coalition government between the tories and lib dems. oh, it was it was stable. it lasted five years. >> the best government it was the war was the blair government talking about the last 20 years, the best government, the last look at the chaos since the lib dems left government in 2015. >> absolute chaos. >> absolute chaos. >> well, do you think that's down to the lib dems using government, or do you think it's down to post brexit shocks? i think. do you think it might be down to a global pandemic? do you think it might also be down to war in ukraine? i mean, y you can't seriously be saying that began britain's gone to hell in a handcart because the lib dems aren't in charge. >> there's an element of truth in that, that we had to look in coalition. we had to talk to our conservative colleagues to get policies through and convince them. and they had to talk to us. that's a very mature way of government. what's happened since then is rewarded. >> you've destroyed in voters don't know what they're going to get because the parties basically have a manifesto and then ditch it all to get a coalition agreement that 20 to 15, 2010 to 15 government began

the process of eviscerating and breaking the economy , which we breaking the economy, which we are reaping the poisonous fruits of now. >> it was a terrible, terrible , >> it was a terrible, terrible, awful, restored. the government doesn't let anybody tell you otherwise. we've restored the government. terrible. >> gentlemen, keep calm. we've got james cleverly down the line with christopher hope in nottingham. christopher, i hope you are with the home secretary. if you can hear me. there he is. >> in short pants. you're doing this all right. >> you're ready? >> you're ready? >> i'm not quite sure. >> i'm not quite sure. >> have you got james cleverly with you, chris? >> oh. >> oh. >> camilla. sorry. with me now, is james cleverly the home secretary? james cleverly, thanks for joining us secretary? james cleverly, thanks forjoining us on gb news tonight. what is your boss rishi sunak got to do to win? >> i think he needs to do what we are doing on the doorstep here in the studio, which is to remind people this is a choice andifs remind people this is a choice and it's a choice between a conservative party that is committed to reducing taxation, committed to reducing taxation, committed to reducing taxation, committed to increasing our defence spending, committed to protecting our borders and

bringing the rwanda plan into full operation and a labour government that will put up taxes will be soft on borders, will not fund our armed forces in the way they should be funded, and that and a vote for any other party will herald laboun >> okay. do you worry about this mrp polling tonight? find out now an electoral calculus 19,000 people. your party gets 60 mps. the labour landslide of 250 majority. the good news for you is you get your seats. but many of your colleagues don't. >> so the message that those polls are sending and the message i'm hearing on the door when i knock on doors in my constituency and elsewhere, don't match up. but look, i can't predict and i'm not going to try and predict. what i'm going to do is what the prime minister is going to do tonight is fight for every vote, try and return as many conservative mps as possible. we would want to form a government, but if that isn't possible, we need to hold labour to account because we

know that their plans, their unfettered spending, their unfettered spending, their unfettered taxation, their failure to deliver on public services and we see that in wales. we see that in london, where they run things, we need to protect the british people from that. >> what's he going to do to change those numbers? you've been stuck on about 20 points behind labour for the entire campaign . tonight is a make or campaign. tonight is a make or break night for rishi sunak. what's he got to do? >> well, i think there are millions of undecided voters. they may well have been frustrated with us and i understand it, of course, because of covid, because of the war in ukraine, there are things we wanted to achieve we've not been able to achieve. i get that frustration, but it's reminding those floating voters who haven't made their mind up yet that a labour government would hurt them. and that's particularly true, i think, of potential reform voters. this is a labour government led by someone who took the knee, rather than supporting our police officers during the blm riots, the person who said all immigration legislation was racist, the labour party is not what britain needs, not what britain wants . and the best way britain wants. and the best way of making sure that they don't

run away with it is by voting conservative lost all discipline. >> you've got colleagues of yours who have been betting on the date of the general election. did you ever bet on the election date? >> so i've not i've never done political betting. and we've never no, never , never. and never no, never, never. and there are there are people from a number of different political parties and indeed people that are not involved directly in party politics that have done this . the pm party politics that have done this. the pm is furious about this, as am i. this. the pm is furious about this, as am 1. public service is about serving the public and we should be relentlessly focused on that, particularly during general elections. so we have taken action. the behaviour has fallen below the level that we think is appropriate, which is why we have taken action. the gambling commission are doing their own investigation. we'll let them get on with that. the reports of 15 tory candidates caught up in this is that a figure you recognise? so i don't ihave figure you recognise? so i don't i have i have no way. >> but you would know. >> but you would know. >> well it's no reason why i would know. i have no way. but as i said, this should be about serving the public. and that's what we should all be focused on. >> the polling tonight gives

reform uk 18 mps next friday. what's your message to people watching gb news? listening to gb news now who are thinking of voting for nigel farage next week ? week? >> well, you're not getting nigel farage first point. you are getting the point being, the point being is that that. so if that mississippi poll is correct, the party and i don't think it is, but the party that would actually be holding labour to account is the liberal democrats and the left of the labour party would be dragging keir starmer even further left. and he's pretty left wing as it is. so it would be even higher taxes, even more woke, even more distractions away from bringing down taxes. it would be disastrous for the british people. that is why i'm determined to make sure that doesn't happen. and a vote for reform would make that more likely rather than less likely. thatis likely rather than less likely. that is the opposite of what my people in braintree, the people in clacton that i speak to, the people in nottinghamshire that i spoken to this afternoon, it's the opposite of what they want.

be careful what you vote for, because what you get, you will have to live for with at least five years and a labour party would be disastrous for this country. >> despair how you got here. i mean, you didn't have to have the election now. you did have the election now. you did have the election. and look where you are. you're facing annihilation at the polls. >> well, as i say, the conversations i'm having on the doors does not match what i'm seeing in the polls. we're going to fight for every vote, for every candidate to get as many mps. we want to form a government. but if that if the british people say that that is not what they want of us, then we will do everything we can to make sure the labour party doesn't ruin this country. >> well, james cleverly, the home secretary, with firm message there for tory voters, might go towards the labour party or lib dems. don't do it. he's saying, all right, don't do it. >> thank you very much indeed, chris hope. but i'm sure you'll be feeding into the evening shows from that debate. let's bnng shows from that debate. let's bring the panel back in. sean norman and george, we know who's going to be leading the labour party after july the 4th. we know who's going to be leading the liberal democrats afterjuly the liberal democrats after july

the liberal democrats after july the 4th. we even know who's going to be leading reform after july the 4th. but the conservative party, who do you think is best placed to take forward whatever's left? they're reduced to 60 seats. they're reduced to 60 seats. they're reduced to 60 seats. they're reduced to 150. who can unite the right ? the right? >> sean, i've never placed a political bet in my life, but i wonder what odds you'd get on nigel farage leading the tory party by the end of next year. >> all right. okay that's your wager, norman. >> well, it won't be rishi. that's for certain, what will happenisit that's for certain, what will happen is it depends on on what? tory mps is returned. it could be a majority of one nation tory mps, in which case they'll go for someone who thinks the tory has. the tories have to come back to the centre, or if there's a majority of, what you might call farage supporters, then they'll go over to the far right. so it really depends on the mixture of mps. >> who's your money on, though? norman, give me a name. i think they won't go for farage, actually. >> all right, george. >> all right, george. >> well, you know, it's premature to say for obvious reasons, because we haven't had the election yet. but, if the poll is as bad as suggested, then, you know, it will very much depend on who's left.

obviously, who. first of all, i don't have a preference. i will say no. >> i actually think, how about this can me your penny quickly? because we're running out of time? >> i'm not sure. i'm not going to get into that game. i actually think it's whoever can, you know, the party made itself relevant in 2019. >> all right. we must go now. thank you very much indeed, chaps, for joining thank you very much indeed, chaps, forjoining me thank you very much indeed, chaps, for joining me this evening. i'll back here tomorrow 7 pm. coming up next, we're going

>> hello. good evening. i'm michael portillo , bringing you. michael portillo, bringing you. state of the nation gb news vote 2020 for the leaders with ed davey has arrived and we'll be discussing what the liberal democrat leader told the channel earlier. rose will be hearing from the shadow health secretary. wes streeting has a gamble date. can of worms been opened as a cabinet minister admits to betting on the election. reports suggest that as many as 15 tory candidates

are being looked at by the gambling commission, with labour being dragged to . in could the being dragged to. in could the scandal become election defining following the labour party's confusion about its own policy regarding gender ideology and transition, kemi badenoch and the actor david tennant have come to blows over trans rights and after nigel farage's recent comments about ukraine and the role of nato expansion, i'll be exploring the deep history of that conflict with a top academic state of the nation . academic state of the nation. starts now . starts now. i'll also be joined by my panel historian and broadcaster tessa dunlop and the journalist and broadcaster benedict spence. now it's broadcaster benedict spence. now wsfime broadcaster benedict spence. now it's time for the news bulletin with polly middlehurst .