tenerife. and was on holiday in tenerife. and just lastly , vice admiral sir just lastly, vice admiral sir tim laurence says the princess royalis tim laurence says the princess royal is recovering slowly as he left a bristol hospital after visiting his wife. today, princess anne, understood to have been injured by a horse while she was out walking on sunday evening. but she suffered some memory loss as well, so the exact circumstances of what happened aren't yet known. however, doctors say she is expected to make a full recovery. that's the news for the latest stories, do sign up to gb news alerts. scan the qr code on your screen or go to gb news .com/ alerts . news .com/ alerts. >> thank you polly and hello to you at home and welcome to a very special patrick christys. >> tonight, as we prepare for sunak v starmer. the verdict two hours of thumping coverage of tonight's election debate, including highlights of all the best bits. top political analysis from the likes of victoria atkins, kwasi kwarteng and tony blair's ex defence secretary geoff hoon, and of

course, maybe the best bit of the show. in fact, our political edhon the show. in fact, our political editor, christopher hope, will be live as he works his way around the official post—debate spin room. patrick is live now with our audience in the other studio behind me . patrick, studio behind me. patrick, what's going on.7 i heard, claims of my dad was a toolmaker protest from outside. what's, what's going on.7 yeah, well, there have been some protests outside. there was, the toolmaker comment. >> his dad now worked in a factory instead of actually made the tools. so there was that side of things. but yes, we are in the gb news watch room here. this has been, i think, the spiciest debate so far. it's actually been really quite entertaining, gambling and integrity came up, benefits has come up , borders integrity came up, benefits has come up, borders has come up. it got really quite tasty at quite a few times. so we've got some great clips to play you and this audience that you can see around me here are fired up and ready to go. later on, they're going to go. later on, they're going to be giving kwasi kwarteng a good grilling no doubt, as well as geoff hoon as well. but i'm just going to ask a couple of them now if that's all right,

sir, i'll start with you if that's okay. who do you think is winning for you.7 >> winning for you? >> well, it seems to be a clear win for sunak, surprisingly so. he seems much better coached, much better structured in his answers and keeps coming back and starmer's hardly landing a punch on any on anything. >> yeah it has. i think it's fair to say been probably sunak's best performance and arguably starmer's worst . we'll arguably starmer's worst. we'll find out whether or not the people who disagree with that more when we delve into this a little bit later on. so what's been one of the standout moments for you? i think you were saying that labour have been quite good at criticising, have they? >> the labour party is good at criticising, it's not good at giving a straight answers. the issue with slough, with the birmingham and other local authorities that have failed financially, they blame the government. they stand themselves to be blamed because ideologically labour has always been for floodgates for open borders. he cannot stand that now in an election and lie and say he's going to control migration when the labour party

is ideologically open to migration, well be coming back to you when we go live on air. >> definitely. and just to say one very quickly, ben, before i go back to you, one of the loudest cheers in that audience was when a bloke stood up and basically said, you're both useless. why should we for vote you, and i think that went down quite well in this room as well. is that a joke? right. so there we go, ben, back to you. you're not useless. and people should definitely watch. >> oh, i don't know, patrick. there's 25 minutes left, so i may come. a calamity just yet. yeah. and also a very interesting point. those protests from outside, pro—palestine protest. lots of video online doing the rounds of it. but you could also hear it whilst the debate was going on. so very funny. no look, of course lots going on in the election run from the last 24 hours, but not least this morning. rishi sunak, the prime minister, he's waded into the row sparked by these comments from doctor who, doctor who, actor and lefty luvvie of course david tennant at the lgbt awards. look at this. >> if i'm honest, i'm a little depressed by the fact that acknowledging that everyone has the right to be who they want to

be and live their life how they want to live it as long as they're not hurting anyone else, should merit any kind of special award or special special mention because it's common sense, isn't it? however until we wake up and kemi badenoch does not exist anymore. i don't wish ill of her. i just wish her to shut up. oh dear, oh dear. >> stunning and brave, i guess. is that how the left would describe that? telling a woman to shut up? well, look, david tennant, a fierce, quote unquote ally of the lgbt community. there he is in his, his lgbtt shirt. you will have to go through me, the trans flag in hand, masculinity pouring out of every part of his body. of course, now , look, he is a course, now, look, he is a fierce ally, he claims of the lgbt community. he sparked a political row off the back of these comments about women's and equalities minister kemi badenoch, the prime minister, rishi sunak , this morning rishi sunak, this morning weighed into the debate. he said freedom of speech is the most powerful feature of our

democracy . if you're calling for democracy. if you're calling for women to shut up and wishing they didn't exist, you are the problem . kemi badenoch already problem. kemi badenoch already hit back yesterday by saying this. she said i will not shut up. i will not be silenced by men who prioritise. applause from stonewall over the safety of women and girls. a rich leftie white male celebrity so bunded leftie white male celebrity so blinded by ideology he can't see the optics of attacking the only black woman in government by calling publicly for my existence to end, she went on. keir starmer stood by while rosie duffield was hounded. he and his supporters will do the same with the country. do not let the bigots and bullies win . let the bigots and bullies win. and that's an interesting point, isn't it? because this is now yet another issue around women's rights that has divided the labour party. dawn butler waded in today. remember her, and backed tennant, saying not all black women think the same. i agree with david tennant . that's agree with david tennant. that's it. that's the tweet . 54 year it. that's the tweet. 54 year old dawn butler there, by the way, tweeting like a 16 year old. but there we go. an odd

response from miss butler, by the way, who has spoken out about the poor treatment of black female politicians in the past. last year, she complains that the disrespect for black women in the commons was, quote, shocking . so does that same shocking. so does that same solidarity not stretch to miss badenoch in this instance? well, i guess not. and her comments come on. the same day, shadow health secretary wes streeting is trying to repair labour's relationship with women. writing in the daily telegraph that labour has a, quote, lot of work to do to earn the trust of women in the wake of rows about transgender rights. so i wonder. it's interesting, isn't it? i wonder how he feels about dawn butler's comments , especially as butler's comments, especially as tennant only really took aim at badenoch in the first place because of her common sense views on trans rights. badenoch fired back at butler again today, saying this is the true face of the labour party. keir starmer says he doesn't want a toxic debate, but he's very happy to have labour mps do his dirty work for him and let people know they wish i didn't exist. these are the types of people who will form a government if labour wins, if they win, the toxicity of the

debate comes from the left. it's always has. it's what do you think? is she right that the toxicity of the debate always comes from the left and by the way, our labour just too divided on trans rights to protect women effectively. but let's get the thoughts of my panel now. businessman and activist adam brookes, author and journalist rebecca reid. and adam, i have a feeling you're not going to be on the fence on this one. when it comes to a dawn butler and the alleged hypocrisy, and also the alleged hypocrisy, and also the trans debate. we're back here again. >> let's start with dawn butler. >> let's start with dawn butler. >> she's a famous anti—racist that was basically effectively racist towards, brown tory mps, she said of suella braverman. that she wouldn't be home secretary if she was white. she also dismissed priti patel's experiences of lived racism. so what is she? you know, is it okay to sort of denounce racism as long as it isn't against tory

mps of colour? that's what it comes across. it's total hypocrisy. and then we've got david tennant , you know, this david tennant, you know, this luvvie thespian. >> what did you make of that picture of him, by the way? with the you'll have to go through me first with his, trans flag. >> it just it makes me feel sick. >> yet he tops the polls of men that women find sexiest again and again and again. you're speaking when you're speaking to the only true 100. no, honestly, objective polls on the internet show women love him. >> do you think he. i mean, which way modern man was would be the twitter? i would say that he is a do you think this is this is, you know, a masculine, strong man to look up to? >> yes, absolutely. he's a stepparent to a trans child, which i think is an extraordinary child. one of his children. i don't know whether it's a stepchild or his biological child, but one of them is trans, he is a very talented, very attractive, very wealthy, very successful, multi—award winning actor who women absolutely go for. but if we're going to talk about hypocrisy, the one i'd really like to get in on is kemi, because kemi has said word for word, i don't like identity politics. she has said i don't

like it when people are tribal. i don't like it when people talk about being a woman or being black, like it's important. and then today here she is saying don't be mean to me. i'm the only black woman. >> she's sticking up for herself. >> yeah, but identity politics aren't relevant. why is she bringing up identity politics either we all can or no one can. but it sounds to me like kemi is like identity politics don't exist unless i was being mean to me and then they're okay. >> no, she's being attacked and she's sticking up for herself. >> she's using identity politics. do you disagree? but no, i'm the only black woman in the cabinet. remind. let's remind, remind the audience of what kemi badenoch is trying to do. >> she is trying to protect women's only spaces from biological men. 95% of trans women plus still have their penis. i've got two daughters. i do not want men like eddie izzard, who one day says that he's a woman, sticks on a short skirt, a little bit of lippy and goes into women's toilets and women's changing rooms. >> if you care about protecting women and girls, what kemi badenoch is doing is she is trying to protect women only

spaces and women's sports. >> we know there's a problem and i think anyone that disagrees with trying to protect these has got an ulterior agenda. >> anybody? >> anybody? >> anybody? >> anybody who cares? >> anybody who cares? >> equality. >> equality. >> anybody who cares about equality should have mentioned that the maternal death rate in childbirth has gone up over the last five years. i have heard a completely different issue. you are in charge of making life better for women. why is the only thing you talk about trans rights? why do you not talk about other things like employment, like flexible working, like the cost of childcare, like the fact that women are dying in childbirth, like the fact that black women are four times more likely to experience birth injury. where is that? >> from the record, kemi badenoch has done a lot of work on that, particularly in 20 2020, 2021 as well. but on the issue of kemi herself, it's gone up since 2020, she hasn't addressed it since 2020. >> she hasn't. >> she hasn't. >> are you are you a fan of kemi badenoch? no no. what's your issue with her stance on trans? >> i think that it's more about the fact that she doesn't like being told that she couldn't or shouldn't say things than actually caring about trans

rights, because before it became a political hot potato, there's very little record of her saying anything. in fact, previously she was fairly lax on pride issues. >> it's argued, adam, know that she's only saying things the majority of normal common sense thinking people. >> what does that mean? >> what does that mean? >> where do you get that data from? >> where? why should biological men compete in women's sports? >> okay, that's a very, very big question. generally speaking, it's very easy. a lot of people are in in contact sports unless somebody has been on hormone suppressants since childhood, i don't think it's appropriate in full contact sports. in non contact sports or if somebody has transitioned in puberty pre—pubescent they don't have the muscle density. i don't have an issue with it. you think a male, a biological male who sprints is they go through. did they go through male puberty. yes. then no i don't think that. >> okay. >> okay. >> adam, i don't know anyone that thinks this is right. and i'm telling you now, if i went to any high street in this country with a microphone and asked everyone that walked past for a few hours whether or not biological men should be in women's toilets, safe spaces and sports, 98% would agree with me. >> you just made up a number.

you just made up a statistic. there are lots of polls that show that lots of people think that trans people should be allowed to live their life with quiet dignity and privacy. >> look, look, this this is this is how you spin it. and the left spin it. i believe in trans rights. what i don't believe is that biological men should be in women's toilets. and women's sports. i can say trans should have rights, but what rights don't trans have that everyone else has? >> okay, well, i think in this specific debate people are trying to roll back from the rights to easily gender, reassign and use the bathroom. >> it's been argued that kemi badenoch is just trying to push forward things with a shake up of the equality act that most people think are sensible. no biological men in women's sports, biological sex considered as a characteristic and no mention of anything else that impacts women, and also trans stuff, regardless of anything else. david tennant, you know, just telling a woman to shut up because she doesn't want them to exist. >> so you do believe in identity politics, then you can tell women, shut up or you can't tell. >> i don't think it's a good look to tell women to shut up. >> so you have to treat women

differently from men. why >> well, why why do you? it's just being a gracious male. you don't tell, you don't hit women. you don't tell women to shut up. there's certain ways that you you shouldn't hit anyone. >> and, ben, let's just remember if a right wing actor had said this to someone like diane abbott, it would be screamed as racism and the daily mirror, daily mirror would have it on the front page. >> great start, adam brooks, anyone? rebecca reed thank you very much, moving on swiftly. don't forget on election night next week, gb news will be live in essex as michelle dewberry and patrick christys host our exclusive coverage as the polls draw to a close. so if you want to be part of our live audience in essex with patrick and jubes, apply now by either scanning the qr code on screen or visiting gb news.com. if you don't know how to scan the qr code, get your mobile phone out now. get the camera out. put the camera over the qr code and there should be a little link, especially on iphones where you can click and sign up. it's going to be a very exciting night, right? coming up tonight, patrick returns with his live studio audience as we bnng his live studio audience as we bring you exclusive reaction to rishi sunak and keir starmer's final head to head in the election campaign. he'll be

joined by health secretary well, former health secretary victoria atkins, former conservative chancellor kwasi kwarteng and ex—labour minister geoff hoon, who was tony blair's former defence secretary. but up next, we hear from a conservative activist who has suffered a worrying amount of anti—semitic abuse on the campaign trail. is the left's fanatical support of palestine to blame and we saw it again tonight in the debate. the pro—palestine mob outside rishi sunak and sir keir starmer's head to head a bit don't go anywhere. this is patrick christys

hello. welcome back. this is patrick christys tonight with me. ben. leo. just for another ten minutes or so. now, the final leaders showdown of the election campaign is approaching. and patrick has been watching it in our live studio with a live audience by the way of gb news viewers. so you don't have to. patrick you've got your your fizzy pop, your snacks, your sausage rolls. i hope you're not stuffing your face there. how's it going? no, i have not been eating anything myself so far. it's a bit like goggle boxes, but i do thoroughly enjoy it. this is my favourite kind of show. and like you said, ben, we're watching this. so you at home don't have to. and we'll have all of that kind of fizzing debate afterwards. we'll be in the spin room, we'll be with a load of frontbenchers, but these are the people that really matter now. it has just got incredibly spicy. on the issue of women's spaces. okay, the audience were were going at them here. it drew quite a lot of reaction in this room. and keir starmer wasn't really answering

what he would do to protect women's spaces. rishi sunak was hammering him on that. and i'm just going to go quickly to a couple of the ladies in the room just to ask you, who do you think he's going to trust based on what you've just heard there? who do you trust more with to protect women's spaces? >> sunak. i think you will. i got four daughters, so i'm very keen on that one. >> okay, so. so it means a lot to you. yeah very much to me. >> okay. i like my children to go somewhere. being their female , to feel free, rishi sunak did actually get quite emotional when he was talking about his own daughters. they're up to contrast that keir starmer just started naming women who were in his party, which i thought was quite a bit weird, really. but, how do you how do you feel it comes when it when it comes to protecting women's spaces. where are you on it? >> sunak because at least he knows what a woman is, right? >> well, ben, i'm going to throw it back to you. but one thing, one one thing i will say is we are going to have a great show

from 9:30, and i can't wait for it . so i'll see you then. it. so i'll see you then. >> thanks, pat. save me a few of those snacks as well, because you're returning in a few short minutes to react to the live bbc debate that i think it's just about to finish. but first listen to this. a conservative campaigner claims to have been subjected to sickening anti—semitic abuse while out campaigning in birmingham. so michael rowe, he's a parliamentary assistant and campaigner for the tories, who also serves as the chair of the young national jewish assembly. he was told by a woman that, quote, jews are not welcome here. that's as he leafleted a quiet street in his brum hometown. the incident has been reported to west midlands police. we've got a comment from them in just a tick. but this comes after anti—semitic hate crime incidents in britain hit a record high, rising by 589. a whopping number after hamas attacked israel in october last yeah attacked israel in october last year. so, michael, welcome to the show. good evening. just explain to me what happened, how far into the campaign trail were you, what kind of street was it?

and also, what was the woman like? can you give us description? >> yeah. good evening. ben, thank you very much for having me on your show. it's a pleasure to speak to you, as you say, i was campaigning in a on a quiet street in birmingham, it was not a particularly, sort of a busy time of the day when i was leafleting, a lady then approached me from her house. she'd actually just driven into the close, and she asked me why i was there, to which i responded, i'm delivering election literature, which, of course, we all know everyone is to free do in this country. it's a great strength of our democracy. of course, the lady then responded, well, you're not welcome here. to which i responded, well, why not? and she said , because you're jewish. she said, because you're jewish. so it was completely explicit in what she said. she used anti—semitism . she used that anti—semitism. she used that explicitly on the streets of britain. and i think it's a growing problem, as you say, since the 7th of october, it's only got worse. and this problem is continuing to escalate. and we're seeing it across the country. >> so, michael, how did she know you were jewish? first question. >> so she couldn't identify that

by the skullcap i wear on my head. right, so just should say for context, that i've worn that for context, that i've worn that for a long time all around the country, all different events. and i have to say, i've never experienced anything like this before. but since the 7th of october, these attacks and these types of racial slurs and racial insults are ever increasing. and it's a big problem. >> was she was she a white woman, a black woman? what does she look like? >> she was a white, middle aged lady, as i say, i've never met her before. didn't have any reason to come across, so i wasn't even looking to speak to her because it was only a letter that i was delivering. i wasn't even knocking on her door to speak to her about the election, and she then felt it was appropriate to use that slur against me. well, look. >> sorry you went through that. but i mean, of course we saw the stat in the introduction there nearly 600% rise in anti—semitic hate crimes. i'm not sure if you were watching the debate earlier between sir keir starmer and rishi sunak, but there was another, yet another pro—palestine mob outside. you could hear them in the studio. do you blame this kind of incident? you went through, the horrible behaviour you were subjected to on this

pro—palestine movement that we've seen since, you know, october, since hamas attacked israel? >> yes. i mean , antisemitism has >> yes. i mean, antisemitism has unfortunately always been a problem and it's not looking likely it's going to go away any time soon. but since the hamas attacks, the terrorist attacks of the 7th of october, where innocent civilians obviously were murdered in cold blood, we have seen a massive increase in anti—semitism. and i have to say, the pro—palestinian rallies are making things even worse . are making things even worse. now, obviously, everyone has the right to freedom of expression, to democracy. everyone has the right to protest in our country. that does not mean everyone has the right to insult other people. and i've seen for myself that i wouldn't want to walk into pro—palestinian marches that i've seen as i leave work in the centre of london, on on almost a weekly basis. and it's absolutely disgraceful. >> michael, very sorry you went through that. it's disgusting. it's vile. and i'm sure, you know, most normal thinking people would condemn it completely. please don't let it put you off campaigning because as you said, politics from whatever side of the argument you're on is the, you know, the cornerstone of our democracy. so please carry on. and we hope,

yeah, you aren't subjected to any more vile behaviour like that in the future. when we did contact the police earlier today, west midlands told us a 24 year old man was delivering leaflets on elm road in birmingham on the morning of 23rd of june when he reported being verbally abused. the victim reported the incident to us on tuesday, the 25th of june and we've launched an investigation. we're treating the incident as a hate crime. okay, right up next, patrick returns with his live studio audience. kwasi kwartengs here as well. geoff hoon, who is tony blair's former defence secretary, victoria atkins, the former health minister, and more as we bring you sunak v starmer. the verdict don't go anywhere. i'll see you next week. patrick is back in a tick. have a good night . night. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers, sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hello and welcome to the latest update from the met office for gb news. following another hot day. for many, it's warm overnight but cooler air is on the way and windier weather.

this unseasonably deep, low pressure arriving for thursday and friday. that's going to bnng and friday. that's going to bring some unseasonable strong winds to western scotland and northern ireland. now it's not been hot everywhere during wednesday, but for much of central and south eastern england it has been another very warm or hot one. and it's going to stay warm in these areas overnight. despite the clear spells 17 celsius further west and north, we've got showery rain moving in cloud and an increased breeze. so by dawn much more unsettled across parts of western scotland, northern ireland, the winds picking up strength through the morning , strength through the morning, bands of rain moving into the west coast. we've also got some heavy showers pushing through the northern isles, perhaps the odd rumble of thunder, brighter skies for much of the rest of scotland, feeling cooler here and for much of northern and western england . wales cloudier western england. wales cloudier conditions to begin. things although the rain on the weather front that is making the change

tending to peter out and really it's just a band of cloud and a few spots of rain as it pushes into the midlands. and then by the afternoon, east anglia in the afternoon, east anglia in the south—east, as that rain arrives and as the cloud thickens, the wind changes direction. temperatures aren't going to reach the highs that we saw in the last couple of days. we're looking at closer to 2526 celsius in the east and south—east but sunshine returns by the end of the day across much of england and wales. blustery showers in the west and the north. and as i say, unseasonably windy through thursday , especially in the far thursday, especially in the far north and northwest and into friday. we've still got some heavy showers moving through and some strong winds that could impact any outdoor events that are taking place. and so watch out for that into the weekend. mixed conditions, some cloud, a bit of rain here and there , but bit of rain here and there, but also some sunshine. temperatures back to average. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather gb

>> oh! brilliant stuff. i absolutely love this. welcome back. everybody now it is time for the main event with. as you can tell, our live studio audience. this is sunak versus starmer. the verdict. so for the past hour or so, my wonderful audience and i have been sat together watching rishi sunak and sir keir starmer come to blows in a feisty televised

debate for the final time. mr sunak, he came out swinging . sunak, he came out swinging. >> would you know where these people come from? he's not answering the question. you know where they see that iran, you can see syria, afghanistan. so when keir starmer says he's going to return people, is he going to return people, is he going to return people, is he going to sit down? are you going to sit down with the iranian ayatollahs? are you going to try and do a deal with the taliban? it's completely nonsensical what you are saying, right? >> it's but the labour leader came back . came back. >> he tried to land a few blows of his own. >> if you literally opposed it, if you listen to people in the audience across the country more often, you might not be quite so out of touch. >> beverly and i think we might have found one man who managed to capture the mood of the nation. >> mr sunak , i think you made >> mr sunak, i think you made a fair job of being chancellor but you're a pretty mediocre prime minister, sir keir, i think that your strings are being pulled by

very senior members of the labour party. are you too really the best? we've got to be the next prime minister of our great country. >> yes. to which there was rapturous applause, i must say, in our watch room there, the sense of desperation. but i'm joined, as you can tell by my live studio audience, they're ready and raring to go, and they're going to be very shortly grilling. former conservative chancellor kwasi kwarteng, who's here with us right now, and former labour minister geoff hoon. and before we go to christopher hope, who is in the spin room for us with some political high flyers at kwasi, i'll start with you. sure. that was, i think, rishi sunak's best performance. he had his foot on starmers throat. he kept asking him, what's your plan? >> i thought he was very good. >> i thought he was very good. >> i thought he was very good. >> i thought he was very fluent on the economy. he made. he said that the inflation had gone down considerably. he kept hammering laboun considerably. he kept hammering labour, starmer on taxes and you could see keir was not very comfortable. he kept wincing and

he looked very sort of tetchy when rishi was attacking him on that. and i thought that rishi was very fluent and he was very engaged and animated. so i thought it was a good debate for him. >> i think the question is whether or not that's a bit too little, too late. unfortunately for rishi sunak jeff, i'll ask you. yeah so rishi came out on women's spaces. he came out on taxation, he came out on the small boats, he came out on the returns agreements. and keir starmer didn't seem to have too much of an answer for that, did he? is he a bit of a dud? >> i thought the prime minister reminded me of some sixth form debaters that i encountered at university, constantly talking across keir starmer, whereas keir starmer was calm , keir starmer was calm, collected, very thoughtful, set out his position very clearly when he was allowed to and he wasn't being talked over by the prime minister >> astonishing behaviour for a prime minister, really. >> so look, i mean that's i get where you're coming from, but he's, he's what, 20 points behind in the polls. we can all see the polls. he's got to do

something. he can't just sit back and be calm and regal. he's got to engage . and i thought he got to engage. and i thought he did that very effectively today. >> but the key thing about what was going on there was that keir starmer was setting out a very clear picture of what he believed he could do, whereas we then got a prime minister who's beenin then got a prime minister who's been in power. his party's been in power for 14 years saying what he wanted to do, even though none of the things that he talked about, he's actually done whilst he's been in power. >> he'd done a few things, but i get what you're saying. but i thought he had a very coherent answer, particularly on economic issues, which he's obviously very fluent. >> all right, guys, we will we will come back to you. i can't wait to get the audience involved. but before that we cross live. now to the spin room, where gb views political editor christopher hope is right in amongst it. christopher, tell me what you got. >> hi, patrick. well, i thought that was a very interesting debate. i think the pm there, rishi sunak came out fighting in a way we haven't heard yet. he asked eight times. i think it was, what will you do about illegally arrived people by

small boats here? no answer really. from the prime, from the from sir keir starmer and the word surrender was used in different ways. surrender our borders . surrender the welfare borders. surrender the welfare bill, surrender the taxation to laboun bill, surrender the taxation to labour. now, that word surrender is fascinating to me. it's a word i think that resonates maybe with reform uk voters. we've got the mrp polling out tonight showing that reform uk is going to do very well in the election. according to electoral calculus and find out now next week. so i think you saw a real appeal there from the prime minister rishi sunak to reform uk voters, not to go and try and try and wreck it all and back and vote reform and split the tory vote. i thought it was fascinating. also, i was struck by the way that sir keir starmer often thought of as a kind of judges barrister, not a jury barrister , which is kept barrister, which is kept appealing for silence. please let me finish , he begged, of the let me finish, he begged, of the young whippersnapper, rishi sunak. i think he had his best day. no question. best night of the campaign, i think. taking on

sir keir starmer. the question he's got is anyone listening ? he's got is anyone listening? >> christopher, thank you very , >> christopher, thank you very, very much. now i believe that christopher there is going to be grabbing people left, right and centre. so what we're going to do is we are we are going to continually be whipping you back and forth into that spin room. i'm just going to play you another quick clip of this debate. so far. this was about the question of borders and illegal immigration. >> government has effectively lost control of our borders. and that means it's not just a border security issue, it's actually a national security issue because the government has lost control of who's coming and what their background is. >> we need to make it crystal clear to people that if they come to our country illegally, they won't be able to stay. and that's why, if i'm your prime minister on july 5th, the flights will go to rwanda. we will build that deterrent that multiple other european countries now agree as the right way to deal this problem. and that's how we solve this problem. what will you do with the illegal migrants that arrive to the uk? what will you do with them? you've had three weeks to

think of an answer. what is it? >> okay. all right. now we have my wonderful studio audience in here. i'll go to a specific question in a second. i just want to, just by a show of hands, if that's all right. first, who you think is going to stop illegal immigration? who's going to be better at dealing with illegal immigration? so if you think that is the labour party, can people maybe raise some hands for me? not a sausage . right. okay. people think that's going to be rishi sunak. yeah. okay can we put hands up? if anyone thinks that nigel farage might do a betterjob than both of them. out of interest. okay. all right. fair enough. i mean, i think it goes without saying for our radio listeners, keir starmer did not win. so there we go. right. my friend on the front row here. now, now, what is your question about. and i'll get you both to respond to this . so go on sir. respond to this. so go on sir. >> so as a disabled person, who do you think i'll be better voting for? >> okay. lovely question. great start. as a disabled person, who do you think you'd be better

voting for? >> go on jeff, i think the labour party has had a consistent and strong history on supporting all of the people in our society who need help. i've always thought in politics the difference between labour and the conservative party was that labour essentially puts people first. the conservative party puts business first and essentially over the history of this country, it has always been the labour party that has held people in your position. >> so i obviously disagree with jeff. i think we've always protected benefits for disabled people, and i don't agree with him with his premise on business and people. i mean, who makes up the business, who works in businesses? this idea that you can somehow put business opposing people's interests, i think is crazy. and i think it's one of the big problems we have as a society. we've got to try and encourage business people. we've got to try and encourage small business people so that we can grow the economy. and i think that's fundamentally actually how labour get it wrong. they think the two are different. >> well, we had a key dividing

line drawn up and this was, i think, quite apparent to all of us who were watching in there when they were asked about benefits. what are we going to do with. there were two questions really, on benefits. one was specifically focused on disabled people. another one was focused on on people who aren't, who just aren't in work. okay. and, basically rishi sunak seemed to say he wanted to make it tougher for people to sign on, i think implying that there are too many people, he thinks, who are on the take. right. and keir starmer i think was was taking the quotes on quotes more compassionate approach, wasn't he? i said i want to get them all off nhs waiting lists so they can get back into work. so there was a clear dividing line on all of that. i think we might have a little clip, actually, just to remind ourselves of this welfare issue. so let's let's play welfare issue. so let's let's play that you were going to have higher welfare under you. >> and that's why you can't deliver tax cuts the way that i can.the deliver tax cuts the way that i can. the prime minister. people should not surrender to this. the prime minister says this will always be higher. they've beenin will always be higher. they've been in power for 14 years. >> why is he only just thought of this with a week to go before

the general election? >> well, you want to be in charge, but you've got nothing to say to people about what you would do about it. this election is about the future , just as a is about the future, just as a very quick show of hands. >> again, very quick show of hands again. do, do people in this room think that there are too many people claiming benefits who shouldn't be claiming benefits? do you think there are too many people on the take? you do? does anyone think that the nhs waiting lists are to blame ? no. okay. all right. to blame? no. okay. all right. bit about the bit about sir on the front row here. what's your question to these two esteemed gentlemen we have here? >> i'm happy. i'm happy to see kwasi here. and i'm quite sad that he actually isn't a senior cabinet position anymore, i think this country from an economic perspective, particularly some of that, has a degree in economics and finance and works in the industry. i think far too much blame was pinned on sort of what you guys laid out while you were chancellor, ladies and from the bank of england, that sort of stuff. but this country has radical economic problems and it requires radical solutions, you know, where's the planning

reform, which would add transformational effects to the economy ? obe are way off with economy? obe are way off with their forecast. why are we doing these fiscal rules five years forward and things like cheaper energy, the falklands has 33 trillion worth of oil on it. why i went cheap energy is highly correlated with economic growth and i just why should i vote for labour or tories on this front? i don't want reheated stale ideas. i want radical solutions. this country has to get a kick up the arse. >> okay. fair enough. strong stuff. >> strong, strong core . >> strong, strong core. >> strong, strong core. >> thank you for your words. i mean, i've got you've got to admit where things went wrong. i think we went too fast to too soon. but i'm very interested in the debate because, as you say, what we need is to drive growth. you know, we need an economy that's growing at two and 2.5% a yeah that's growing at two and 2.5% a year. not an economy that's growing 0.5. and i'm very interested because a lot of what liz truss is saying in terms of the growth imperative for growth, labour are saying the same thing. they're saying we need to have growth. they get

that because if we don't grow the economy, all they'll do is put up taxes. and that's why rishi's attack on them is so effective. okay, because he knows that. >> jeff, what's labour going to do to give our economy a kick up the backside ? the backside? >> well, bear in mind that cassie's budget, liz >> well, bear in mind that cassie's budget , liz truss cassie's budget, liz truss supervised that budget and was equally responsible caused every person in this room who's paying a mortgage to pay more money. and that's true . and that's true. >> the bank of it was related. >> the bank of it was related. >> it's related. they are still paying. that's a huge loan, their mortgage, because the bank rate let me finish. i listened to you kwasi. >> let me. okay. i'll let you finish and then i'll come back to you, okay. because it's known. so what you're saying is not true, that that budget caused the pound to sink to its lowest value against the dollar everin lowest value against the dollar ever in history. >> it caused the bond market absolute chaos. the bank of england had to step in spending your money, taxpayers money, on sorting out the chaos that he and liz truss left this country. chaos that you're still paying for. if you have a mortgage

because interest rates went up as a result of the intervention by the bank, and interest rates have stayed high, higher than they need to be, higher than in other countries because of the disaster that the conservative government were. >> regardless of the budget . >> regardless of the budget. thatis >> regardless of the budget. that is a lie, because i think it's a naked lie. it's not a lie. it's not. let me finish. >> i think you should stop. let me finish for a second, stop for a second, and i will absolutely come back to you on this. >> no, but i've got the mortgages were related to the bank rate and every central bank in the western world was hiking up interest rates. >> not at the same time and not as high. >> and it's exactly what happened as high as the uk. >> it wasn't to do with, you know, he's got victoria atkins and then we will obviously revisit this massive row. >> so go on happy to do that. patrick, welcome back to the spin room with victoria atkins. the health secretary victoria atkins who won rishi. >> rishi sunak i think he showed tonight both the seriousness of the choice we all have to make in a week's time. this isn't a

by—election. it's not a fanciful exercise. this is who will govern our country over the next five years at a time that we know the world is an increasingly dangerous place . increasingly dangerous place. and crucially, rishi set out our plans for the future, including on taxation, including on the economy, including on immigration. sir keir starmer could not answer questions when they were put to him. he was asked nine times what he would do to tackle immigration. he had no answer and that , i'm afraid, no answer and that, i'm afraid, shows that the mask is beginning to slip because labour in this election campaign have relied on a lack of scrutiny being vague about their promises. but tonight we saw he could not answer those questions when they were put to him. and that should worry us all, because we know that with labour's vagueness on policy, it also means that we will be the ones paying for it. so if you can afford labour, i'm very pleased for you. but for the rest of us we need to start saving. if god forbid, if

there's a labour government, where on earth has that rishi sunak been? >> it's week six now of this campaign and it came out like it had like ten weetabix for breakfast. what's happened to him? why has he suddenly been transformed into this attack dog? because he did make sir keir starmer look quite sleepy. and at one point sir keir starmer was saying let me finish. and a couple of times he appealed for some support from the audience or from the presenter, michelle hussein. >> well, this is the rishi sunak, that sharpness, that wit, that intellect . that intellect. >> that's the rishi sunak that i see around the cabinet table . see around the cabinet table. and i'm really pleased that tonight we've seen how he deploys his incredible intellect to our benefit when he's negotiating, for example, the windsor framework. and by the way, sir keir starmer free movement very much is on the table for the eu if we try to go back to renegotiate. >> he denied that sir keir starmer. >> but michel barnier, this week said that free movement would be a requirement of any negotiation in the eu. he's obviously not been keeping up with the news that language on surrendering

your tax rises, surrendering welfare, surrendering the border , why you use the word surrender so much? >> who are you trying to appeal to? >> because we believe fundamentally the choices that we have to make next thursday is between the conservatives that want to lower our taxes, want to lower immigration, that we have plans in place to do so. we want a bright future for our nhs. you can imagine i'm working flat out on that. but with the labour party , they have produced 135 party, they have produced 135 page manifesto . that was page manifesto. that was a wonderful exercise in vagueness. >> they didn't really about the language surrender, but the language surrender, but the language language surrender is interesting. why that language surrender? >> because we genuinely believe this choice on thursday. it's not a as i said at the beginning, it's not a fanciful exercise. this will determine the future of our country, the direction of our country and our government and the conservatives have a plan for our future in a way that labour the cracks are beginning to show. now. >> vicky atkins, i've got to ask you about the doctor. strike

starts. starts tomorrow morning at 7 am, so hard for people waiting for treatment. it's on you. why are you not sorting this problem out? it's a big pay rise, but people are in pain because of your policies. >> well, i came in in november and since then, i've sorted agreements with consultants and with speciality doctors. the last group of doctors remaining is junior doctors. they walk out on me, labour, say we'll get into the room. i've been in the room with the doctors repeatedly. the junior doctors committee and they walk out. we know that what they are asking for is unreasonable for the taxpayer. it will cost £3 billion. so again, how is labour going to fund that if they're going to fund that if they're going to fund that if they're going to meet that 35% pay rise that junior doctors are wanting? and what i want to do is i threw out, said to junior doctors committee, they call off these strikes, they put patients first rather than their pay . then rather than their pay. then i will get straight back round the negotiating table with them once the election is over. >> victoria atkins, health secretary victoria atkins, thank you for that. do you want a quick look around the spin room?

just for two seconds? >> yeah, go on then. i'll do it. >> yeah, go on then. i'll do it. >> okay, here we go. this is where all the action taking place. now you'll see here that to my right here. john, look over here. this is the labour attempt at spinning tomorrow's headlines. pat mcfadden now stroking his chin, john ashworth, i think they're trying to brief journalists, trying to convince them that, sir keir starmer has won this debate. some would say not come this way, john. this way round. i'm going to fall over. sorry. forgive me. this and this is where you're seeing wes streeting channel 4, gary gibbon. the bbc is here. so, gary, that's, wes streeting the shadow health secretary, trying to brief there with the bbc. and we go round this way. john round here, you're seeing the you'll see here the, the bbc coverage. they're live on bbc one now. and over here you're seeing the sky tv operation behind me. so it's a busy time here. i think this is the last attempt, last spin room we're going to have to show you here. patrick. and this may be the place where the headlines are written tomorrow morning. >> absolutely. christopher, thank you very much. and we will be going back to christopher

hope there as soon as possible. one of the big criticisms that rishi sunak was levelling at keir starmer throughout this debate was, you haven't got a plan, you haven't got a plan, you haven't got a plan. and that's because you keep changing your mind on exactly what it is your mind on exactly what it is you think quick clip now of that. >> but the choice of this election is about, as sue said, it's about leadership. it's about integrity and politics. and as a question about doing what you say, the keir starmer has made this broader point. but the point is he's changed his mind on every major position that he's taken. he doesn't have the lovely stuff. >> now i'm going to go to the microphone here. my friend on the front row here. what's your question to, to these two individuals. >> yeah. as an unpaid carer that both parties say that we're the backbone of the country in all the debates, i'm appalled that none of the main parties, labour and conservative, have done or said anything for unpaid carers, and your only answer seems to for be people who are vulnerable or disabled, is to get them into work. not all of them can get into work, you know, what are

you going to do? okay, that's all there's millions being saved in money every year by unpaid carers, and you just seem to ignore us. >> okay, go on then. >> okay, go on then. >> go on. »- >> go on. >> so i think, what you do and what people do as unpaid carers, of course, is hugely important. i mean, i've just stepped down from my constituency, but i used to go every week and see care homes and we could see how much, they were contributing. people like yourself were contributing to the local community. and that's very important to us. i agree with you about the debate. i think the debates that we've seen are very narrow. i mean, clearly rishi sunak wants to talk about the economy because that's what he's very good at. and then, of course, labour have their talking points . and i their talking points. and i thought the debate was actually incredibly narrow and sterile . incredibly narrow and sterile. and i wish we could talk about broader issues. but in terms of what you contribute, i think we're trying to protect budgets , we're trying to protect budgets, but we're trying to also make sure that the spending is more efficient. and that's the balance that we're trying to.

>> and you you talk about that balance and you presume. well, i mean, is there any money for the kind of thing that labour wants to do? i mean, he couldn't answer even whether or not he was going to have a retirement tax today. keir starmer. >> well, can i go back to the question, first of all. and i don't think it's about care homes. it's about the numbers of people who give up their work, give up huge amounts of their time to care for loved ones, to care for people in their own home, actually saving the country. i recognise enormous amounts of money because otherwise those people would have to go to homes. they'd have to be supported by by the state. so no one will go further than i would in admiring the effort you make, and people like you make on behalf of those that they care for . on behalf of those that they care for. most of all, on behalf of those that they care for . most of all, how we care for. most of all, how we find money to support you is a challenge. i'm not pretending it's easy to do. there is money already in the social security system. it's not enough. it's not enough to give you the kind of help that you need to do the

invaluable work that you do. so i recognise that this is a huge issue. getting some people back into work is going to help. it's going to reduce the level of welfare spending, getting people off the waiting list is going to help. getting people early treatment is going to help, but i recognise that is a fundamental issue for actually millions of people across the country, millions carers and those who are being cared for. >> right. >> right. >> i'm just i'm just i'm just going to say on this now because i'm just getting this in my ear that apparently the yougov snap poll has just come out about who the public think did better. apparently that poll is 5050, which i don't think many people do. you do you agree with us, sir? who do you think won? who do you think was better, a better performer for you, say the woman starmer massively won that you thought keir starmer won. yeah. yeah. >> okay. i'm sorry. no, sorry. no no no no not no that's not what you're saying to me before. yeah. no rishi won that by miles. it was like sterling was

backed into a corner. he didn't know the blows were coming from everywhere. so he just. yeah. at one point i thought was going to cry . cry. >> yeah. okay. fair enough. have you got a very quick question you'd like to put to, to either of these two chaps here? >> yes. it was actually about the nhs. so we have thousands of people qualify each year in the nhs, but they go into their jobs and very quickly they move on to private health care. what initiative could we do to stop them from leaving the nhs? because obviously that would help bring down waiting lists. if that is the problem of the jobs. but there is obviously a key issue there with no gps. we are short of them across the country. >> look, i think so. >> look, i think so. >> i think that i mean, i've spoken to people at the royal college of nursing about this, and i actually learned more about it when i came out of government as a backbencher than i was when i was a minister, because i was never really involved in the health department. but clearly, when i speak to nurses, i think we've got we've got to train our people better. it's got to be recognised, particularly nursing as a profession, and i think we need to be able to have an apprenticeship and actually

encourage people to go into the profession because as you say, morale levels are quite low and people find that they, they, they, they can get better jobs in the private sector. i don't think it's a question of money. i think it's about status. it's about professional. development and also bringing people on who can then have fulfilling long term careers in the, in, in, in the service . the service. >> you've got about 30s. >> you've got about 30s. >> kwasi has just done what i was describing the prime minister doing in the debate. what he's talking about is something that the conservative government for 14 years could have addressed. why is morale so low in the health service? why are nurses leaving? why are doctors going to other countries? because they don't feel valued by this government. and what we need is a government that actually puts the nhs front and centre , more doctors, more and centre, more doctors, more nurses, more caring . nurses, more caring. >> okay. >> okay. >> right. well, look, we are going to return to this. we're going to return to this. we're going to return to this. we're going to have a little quick break. we're going to go to the bulletins as well. just keep you

updated because there is apparently some other news out

>> so we're just going to go straight on and then craig snell i'll get rid of every advert break. no way. >> welcome back to a very special edition of patrick christys. tonight i have a live studio audience in here with me for sunak versus starmer. the verdict. shall we have a little quick recap? okay, so immigration and our broken borders , they were massive borders, they were massive talking points. >> again government has effectively lost control of our borders. and that means it's not just a border security issue. it's actually a national security issue because the government has lost control of who's coming and what their background is. >> we need to make it crystal clear to people that if they come to our country illegally , come to our country illegally, they won't be able to stay. and that's why if i'm your prime minister on july 5th, the flights will go to rwanda. we will build that deterrent that multiple other european countries now agree as the right way to deal this problem. and

that's how we solve this problem. what will you do with the illegal migrants that arrive to the uk? what will you do with them? you've had three weeks to think of an answer. what is it? >> and then sir keir starmer fell into a familiar corbyn shaped trap , the prime minister shaped trap, the prime minister said. >> he warned the country about liz truss and the damage that she was going to do to our economy and then in the next breath he said we must unite behind her and support her. why on earth would you unite behind someone that you say you know is going to do that damage? >> you know what it's like to fall in behind a leader of your party. >> but he's he's repeating them. he's repeating the problem. >> okay, well, i am joined again by the former conservative chancellor, kwasi kwarteng, and former labour minister geoff hoon as well. now, one of the big topics that was coming up all throughout this debate was how are we going to pay for everything? how much is things going to cost? are labour being straight with you about taxes? and then a little bit earlier today, darren jones was caught out revealing what many people

will believe to be the truth about labour's tax bill when it comes to their green agenda. it was mentioned at this debate, but we do have a copy of this clip now and then i will come to you guys off the back of it. so let's hear from him now. this is darren jones talking about how much is really going to cost for their big green agenda, the labour party. >> we're still absolutely committed to it. >> it's still one of the top five priorities, and it's going to be a huge amount of effort to get there. we'll have to move quite quickly, but a lot of the coverage of the news was about that specific 28, which, because journalists like alex made it sound as if we basically junked the whole thing, but we don't, because some people say that like 28 billion isn't enough. no. it's tiny. i've got to be worth hundreds of billions of pounds. >> we need hundreds of billions of pounds, he said. this is a bit awkward because i didn't realise this, but we can go now to christopher hope, who is with darren jones. so, christopher, i'll leave you to it. >> patrick i'm with darren

jones, the shadow chief secretary of treasury. darren jones. what on earth were you talking about in that secret recording? >> well, it wasn't a secret recording. >> it was a coffee morning in my constituency. >> the tory party or the telegraph are very welcome to come to. >> i was setting out what the private sector is going to invest in their own businesses invest in their own businesses in order to get to net zero by 2050. >> and for example, the energy sector. it's based on independent evidence from the likes of the committee on climate change. and it's also what the private sector and private sector investors tell us they want to do. there's no secret plan about unlocking investment in britain. it is a promise from the labour party. if we win the election next thursday, £28 billion was a tiny amount. >> you record that you were recorded as saying you need hundreds of billions of pounds. some of that is public subsidy. are you not telling the whole truth about your green plan? >> so i was pointing out that the 28 billion was small, in contrast to the amount that the private sector is going to invest in their own infrastructure. and we had to repackage that green prosperity plan because the conservatives crashed the economy, debt went through the roof, the cost of debt went through the roof and so we had to make it smaller.

we've been very upfront and frank about that, but even so, we heard there in the debate with rishi sunak asking sir keir starmer, is it 200 billion, 300 billion? >> is that all private money then? and there's no more no more public pennies apart from the money you've announced so far, we've been very clear in the labour party what our fiscal rules are. >> we've been very clear about what our investments are. it's all in the manifesto and it's all in the manifesto and it's all fully funded and fully costed. all the additional money will have to come from the private sector, but if the private sector, but if the private sector, but if the private sector wants to own a nuclear power station or a hydrogen production site, or they want to build grid and network distribution facilities, then of course they will invest in it and pay for it. >> what you're worried that your leader, sir keir starmer, was a bit all at sea when asked about how he'll deal with illegally arrived migrants. i think it was 8 or 9 times the prime minister said. what would you do? and there's no real answer from sir keir starmer. >> i mean, there was a very clear answer from keir starmer about how we would tackle the criminal gangs that are putting vulnerable people on boats and sending them to the uk. >> and the contrast with the rwanda scheme, which is not even

off the ground and would only deal with a very small number of the people who are coming. keir starmer has experience of prosecuting and closing down criminal gangs across europe. he knows how to do this, whereas the prime minister seems to just want to be funding gimmicks and hoping for the best. >> his point, though, was those who have arrived here, rishi sunak will say they'll be flown off to rwanda, whereas what was the answer? what is the answer from labour? because there wasn't one in that debate. >> well, there applications need to be processed and i think it's about 60% of asylum seekers don't get granted asylum. and then they have to return to where they came from. one of the problems we have at the moment is there have been such a backlog in the processing that there's a huge queue. people are stuck in hotels waiting for their decisions to come forward, and the home office has not been sending people home, even when they've said they don't have a right to be here. we have to fix that. >> on welfare, he talked about this is a rishi sunak talk about surrendering on welfare. what's your plan? the tories want to cut billions off the welfare bill and labour doesn't know. >> we do want to make sure that in the future the welfare bill is under control because it is projected to too be high. we agree we want to reform the work capability assessment and a number of the way the processes work. but what the conservatives have said is they're going to raise £12 billion from their

reforms. but the conservative chancellor, jeremy hunt, said that they've already raised that money and spent it. but that's the money apparently paying for the money apparently paying for the conservative party manifesto. what that means is their manifesto is not funded and they can't spend the money twice. >> what is the keir starmer asked twice for to be allowed to be heard? was he a bit off colour today? he was a bit tired from the campaign. >> no, ijust from the campaign. >> no, i just think rishi sunak he wasn't behaving very well and i think if you look at both of them, keir starmer and rishi sunak, only one of them's going to be prime minister after the election next thursday. it was very clear to me who was the most prime ministerial, both in terms of their leadership style, the answers to the questions, their plan for the country. i think keir starmer won that hands down. but people will only get that change if they vote for it next thursday. >> well, darren jones there, who's the chief secretary of the treasury or the deputy chancellor in layman's terms speaking to us there. thank you patrick. >> yeah. lovely. >> yeah. lovely. >> what timing. what timing that was fantastic christopher. thank you very much. we'll be grabbing more people for us. right. as you know, i have got my wonderful studio audience here. i've also got two esteemed guests. former chancellor kwasi kwarteng and geoff hoon, as well former labour minister, on that issue there, did darren jones let the cat out? the bag that a

labour government is coming for your money? >> i'm going to be very fair, okay? >> because i was secretary of state for bays before i was chancellor. i was the energy secretary, and it's quite true that billions can be deployed by the private sector. and of course, some of that money comes from the government, but it crowds in it attracts more investment from the private sector. so what he said was broadly right. the fear is that they're going to actually put taxes up and they're going to put more money. they're going to bet winners on the green eco transition, and that won't be managed well. but i think what he said broadly is right. it's not hundreds of billions that's going to come from the government, and i think we've got to be fair. i mean, that's one of the reasons why, you know, i don't like your politics, even though i can give it as much as i can take it. but, but but actually, what he said was broadly right. the fear is that with corbyn in 2019, he said he was going to nationalise everything. he's going to nationalise all the utilities , nationalise all the utilities, nationalise all the utilities, nationalise all the wind farms, and they're going to spend

billions and billions and billions, which we can't afford, driving the transition goal. >> and what is crucial in the spirit of evenhandedness is that we stabilise the economy. we allow investment to flow because investment will not come into the uk for any purpose, green policies or anything, unless they believe that their investment will give them a return . return. >> can i just ask you, geoff? and that means stability. yeah. >> but on great british energy at the moment they are saying that they're not saying sorry whether or not they are actually going to be using public money to build new things that will add to our grid. instead, we might just be paying for things that already exist, that buying them off a private company and they can't answer that. what's they can't answer that. what's the point of that? >> the point of that is to ensure energy security. >> but it's the same as we've got now. you're just buying it off some bloke over there. >> no, no, no, it's vitally important that in the next phase of our energy requirements as a

country, as we decarbonise, we ensure that this country is able to generate its electricity for its own needs. at the moment, we are hugely dependent on foreign sources of power , and we need to sources of power, and we need to have a mechanism whereby the country can control that development and that means green energy for the future. we're all committed to that. all political parties are committed to that, but it needs to be directed centrally. >> okay. >> okay. >> so the main critique i have about that, and i agree with pretty much everything you said , pretty much everything you said, is that if you look at the labour policy, they're going to tax the north sea. you know, they they've openly said they want to shut down gas and fossil fuels in the north sea. and all that will mean is it will be importing it from abroad at a higher price. but we're already doing that. we're doing it to an extent. but if you follow the logic and i'm not, i don't know where you stand on this, but if you follow the logic of people in the labour party and with the green wing, they want to get rid

of fossil fuels entirely. and by doing that, they will not only crush jobs in the north sea, they will also hike up energy pnces they will also hike up energy prices through importing abroad. >> there is a fundamental weakness in that argument, and it's this the oil that comes from the north sea is not necessarily coming to the uk. it's simply part of a global market in oil. and we can't make those oil companies sell their oil in the uk. >> i agree with that. but if you look at gas , that's a different look at gas, that's a different story. a lot of the gas that we consume comes from the north sea. i think it was about 50% last time i saw, and a lot comes from the middle east. it does, it does. but 50% is coming from and you shut that down, you can see you're more dependent at a higher cost from abroad. and that's that's a risk. i don't know where you stand on it. i don't really know where the labour government, the labour shadow government stand on it. but there are elements in the party that that want to shut the whole thing down. >> okay. right now, when we dip back in, i will come to my friend on the front row here for a question. i am just going to whizz us over to christopher hope. now, who has daisy cooper with him? i think our political

editor in the spin room. go on. christopher >> hi, patrick young with daisy coopen >> hi, patrick young with daisy cooper, who's the deputy leader of the liberal democrats, daisy cooper. of the liberal democrats, daisy cooper . what's it like watching cooper. what's it like watching out as the third party? >> well, to be honest, it was really frustrating. i obviously would have loved to have seen ed davey on the stage, talking about our plans to save the nhs and social care, take real action on the cost of living and protect our local environment by putting a ban on the ending. basically the scandal of raw sewage dumping. we didn't hear enough about any of those three issues from the two politicians who were on the stage. and i think the public would have enjoyed seeing, would have enjoyed seeing, would have enjoyed seeing, would have enjoyed seeing ed on the stage this evening, language saying surrender. >> that was the attack line, wasn't it? from rishi sunak don't surrender on taxation , don't surrender on taxation, surrender on welfare, surrender on the borders. why was that? the word surrender used so much by the tory party? >> i think it's simply a sign that the prime minister knows that the prime minister knows that he's on a losing streak , that he's on a losing streak, and that this is a very desperate, desperate prime minister in a desperate situation. they've been mired in more sleaze and scandal every single day. now we're getting

more and more stories of that type. it's the prime minister fighting for his political life, and i think he knows. and you can tell from the audience, this evening that the public are just sick to the back teeth of this conservative government and it's time for them to go. >> how are you feeling about the polling? because the polling from electoral calculus and for gb news tonight has you at 71 mps, you'll be the second biggest party in parliament next friday, you'll be the deputy leader of the opposition . leader of the opposition. >> daisy cooper i have seen polls go up and i've seen polls go down. and what i can tell you is that the only vote that matters, the only poll that matters, the only poll that matters is the poll. >> it's a really boring answer. come on. it's 10:00 >> it's a really boring answer. come on. it's10:00 at night. you and me talking. what's going on here? do you think you can get this? >> do you know what? as a liberal democrat, i've seen our polls go up and down all over the time. but we have a we have a voting system called first past the post and actually, the polls don't always reflect what's happening on a seat by seat basis. what i can tell you is that liberal democrats are in second place to the conservatives in around 80 seats around the country, and we're hoping to win as many of those as possible next thursday.

>> are you trying to take the votes from labour as well, or mainly targeting the tory party? >> well, as i say, we're in second place to the conservatives in around 80 seats around the country. we are fighting labour and the snp in some seats around the country, but primarily it's the conservative mps that we're trying to unseat. >> daisy cooper, thank you for that. that's the deputy leader of the lib dems, daisy cooper, who this time next, next, next friday, forgive me. could be in a different place altogether according to these polls. yeah, 100% actually. >> look, christopher, thank you. and thank you very much. daisy. this ties us on perfectly announced my next audience question. we mentioned the polling there. it has labour. the latest polls are this. it has labour winning 450 seats. the lib dems securing more mps than the tories at davies party would be on 71 seats. the conservatives will be down to just 60. then comes the snp on 24. but the poll also projects that reform will win 18 seats, which is astonishing considering it. i think it was only last week they were on for 1 it. i think it was only last week they were on for1 or it. i think it was only last week they were on for 1 or 2, maybe the greens and plaid cymru have four each and i do wiz us over now, so he's been waiting very patiently for me there now ,

very patiently for me there now, sir, i think we're in that room earlier. and one of the loudest cheers went up from yourselves and also from the audience. when and also from the audience. when a bloke stood up basically and said to both of the candidates there that he didn't think particularly highly of them , i particularly highly of them, i actually agree. >> i actually agree with that gentleman , actually. i mean, to gentleman, actually. i mean, to have a debate that's with these two muppets. so i feel that they are that i would have liked to seen a lot more leaders from different parties because we live in a free democracy and it's not food democracy when you only got two people, when we've got, you know, whether you agree with parties or different parties, it's nice to hear different opinions from everybody, not just from two men. >> okay. so you would you you would have more people there. >> i would i had a lot i would have liked to seen a lot more, wherever they are of their part, the leaders from whatever different parties gusto kwasi . different parties gusto kwasi. >> go on. yeah.

>> look, we had debates with seven. they weren't all leaders, but they're the seven way debates and if that were possible, they were even duller than the debate. we've just seen. i mean, there was no thread. there was no it was very incoherent. i get your point. i think that the and we're going to see next week some of the anomalies of first past the post, because you're going to get a labour party, i don't think they'll get much more than 40. but if the polls are to be believed, they'll get a huge majority. and that's largely because the other parties are very split , particularly the very split, particularly the conservative and reform. and i'm old enough just to remember the 1983 general election, which was in a way like this in reverse, in a way like this in reverse, in that you had the conservatives were on about 44. you had labour and the sdp on about 25, and they effectively split their vote, and the tories had a huge majority . and so had a huge majority. and so you're going to see you potentially you're going to see odd results. and that's just a feature of the system . now we feature of the system. now we can have a debate about first past the post. but we've all lived under it all our lives. we've had it for a very long

time. and that's just the way i do. >> i do think there was there was there is a general mood. i think that maybe these two leaders are not great and that there is massive dissatisfaction generally in the country, i think, and i wonder, jeff, whether or not you think that's behind nigel farage, his potential success. what do you make of the fact that the nation might be being made to choose, really between two leaders, the two major parties that we just don't like very much, but certainly not been my experience on the doorstep. >> i i've had a lot of people say that actually we need a penod say that actually we need a period of stability. we've had a penod period of stability. we've had a period in which we've had a series of conservative prime ministers two of them resigning in disgrace within a matter of weeks, and rishi sunak trying to pretend somehow that he's something new and different, whereas actually he's simply continuing with the kinds of conservative policies we've seen for very many years. so in those circumstances , people are circumstances, people are looking for stability. they're looking for stability. they're looking for stability. they're looking for the kind of calm

assurance which i think, keir starmer demonstrated over and over again tonight when he was answering the questions rather than simply mouthing slogans. >> so, look, i'm going to speak freely, okay? i mean, you've stuck to your party, talking points . neither of these leaders points. neither of these leaders are inspiring huge confidence. and we've got to be honest about that. i mean, in 97, blair got 44. keir is trending down and he's got a problem. and i think rishi sunak as you say, we actually was three prime ministers who resigned. i mean, whether in disgrace or whether that's your that's your little spin, your literary spin on it. but but yeah, we have had a tumultuous time. i think rishi deserves some credit in stabilising the situation. you know, it's difficult . after 14 know, it's difficult. after 14 years, you could have the most charismatic leader in the world. and it's very difficult to make the case that we need another five years. and i think rishi is doing a reasonable job. but we've got to be frank and say, you know, both main leaders are struggling and we haven't mentioned reform once, even though they've doubled pretty much their vote share in the

last four weeks. and i think that was the element the elephant in the room, actually. and we've got to be candid and open and say, why is this happening? we can't just go on with the talking points over on the doorstep. you know, people are loving keir starmer. they're not. and we've got to be frank about that. >> okay, you, you were mentioning, there about a lack of stability and about, you know, chaos, etc. with respect. do you? >> i was part of it. i was in it. >> i mean, it.- >> i mean, i it.— >> i mean, i saw all of it. >> i mean, i saw all of it, and i wish it hadn't happened. i mean, i was, you know, i was we were being buffeted around, and were being buffeted around, and we needed a period of stability and calm and looking .

back, i can see. i can see that that was a fundamentally feel like you had the rug pulled from under you. >> right? >> right? >> well, effectively, i mean, i've talked about it a lot, but, you know, when you i mean, and you know, when you i mean, and you don't have to be a great student of political history to know when a prime minister sacks the chancellor, they've effectively blown themselves up. >> yeah. and, and six days later, she resigned six days.

>> and i said to her, said, >> and i said to her, i said, you've got three weeks. and i was wrong. it was six days, as you pointed out, but that was unfortunate. and we move on. but i definitely think that rishi has tried to, hold labour's feet to the fire on tax. and i think i think what he says is basically right. >> okay. >> okay. >> and i put it to you that maybe this idea of tory chaos and happened liz truss and what happened with liz truss and what happened with liz truss and maybe slightly and kwasi is maybe slightly overblown. simply overblown. it's just simply a useful attack line. >> i don't accept that for a moment. i tell you for why, patrick? because i spent a lot of time in the last few weeks knocking on doors in different parts the country, i'm parts of the country, and i'm afraid kwasi afraid liz truss and kwasi budget now. i know budget come through. now. i know from doors over from knocking on doors over a lifetime that actually it is very rare for people to mention specific issues of that kind, but they're mentioning it because they're suffering their mortgage has gone up, it's stayed struggling stayed up, they're struggling financially. see any financially. they do not see any prospect success prospect for growth or success under conservative under the present conservative leadership. want change. >> that would f—l change. >> that would all very >> and so that would be all very well if labour's share well if labour's vote share wasn't declining. wasn't actually declining. that's been happening. that's what's been happening. if that expect that were true, you'd expect there'd increasing there'd be to be increasing support. the people support. they're not the people who support. who are increasing support. actually, look actually, if you just look at the minority the numbers are minority parties. democrats, parties. the liberal democrats, to extent, greens to a certain extent, the greens and particularly reform and i think, take think, yes, it's true, i take responsibility. is an responsibility. there is an element mini—budget, element of the mini—budget, but there's other there's a whole bunch of other things actually there's a things and actually there's a lot discontent. it's very lot of discontent. and it's very interesting jeff interesting to hear jeff starmer, people loving starmer, people are loving starmer. change. starmer. they want a change. they're not. they're dissatisfied lot of dissatisfied with a lot of politics. got to politics. and we've got to address to be address that. we've got to be honest know honest about that. and i know i don't you got don't know what have you got a period. got one. period. you've already got one. i done. but, i mean you're done. but, but, but we've to be frank but but we've got to be frank about about the about the

about the about the about the problems about the about the about the problerright. where's it >> all right. now where's it about? live studio about? i've got a live studio audience here again. if you audience in here again. if you are joining us, we're are just joining us, we're not having of mad party. having some kind of mad party. we were. were watching this we were. we were watching this head play you head to head. i'll play you a couple of that in couple of clips of that again in a come this a second, but i'll come to this wonderful what it wonderful chap here. what is it you would like? yeah. talk into the is you the microphone. what is it you want say? want to say? >> why the country trust >> why should the country trust labour on labour and conservative on defence? 13 years of labour and conservative on d

service? >> all right. >> all right. >> okay. thank you. i will take the microphone, but, yes. okay. well, i'll finish with that one though. well, why labour oppose the national service. >> well the people who will be most against the conservative plans for national service are the armed forces. they simply do not want to spend their time looking after people who only serve on a weekend. i spent six years as secretary of state for defence. i promise you that whenever the issue of national service was raised, the people who were most against it were the military, right, i think i think that is true. >> but actually what he's talking about, national service. when rishi mentioned it, it's not just about military service. it's a broader offer as we have in we see in other european countries. so i think you're partially right. but it's not just about people being in the military . okay. national service idea. >> now again, i am just getting something on my ear here. we remember the chap who asked the question, about them both being useless, i think we'll just just

remind ourselves to remind ourselves of who he was . ourselves of who he was. >> mr sunak, i think you made a fair job of being chancellor but you're a pretty mediocre prime minister, sir keir. i think that your strings are being pulled by very senior members of the labour party. are you too really the best? we've got to be the next prime minister of our great country. >> and i believe that, man, there is someone in my audience that should be given a knighthood . joins christopher knighthood. joins christopher hope now. chris, there he is. come on, christopher, take it away. he's getting a round of applause . applause. >> patrick, with me now is robert blackstock, who asked the question of the evening. robert, you're having a round of applause from the audience @gbnews for that question . what @gbnews for that question. what prompted it? >> well, it's a question i've wanted to ask, and i didn't think i was going to get the

attention that i've subsequently got it, because it's a question that i think a lot of people across our wonderful country have been wanting to ask as well. so i've just asked the obvious question. >> and when you said you said our great country and it is a great country, and do you feel that the political class isn't measuring up to how great this country is? >> very definitely. i don't think we have a charismatic enough leadership to lead our great country. >> can i ask you, sir, how you voted in previous elections ? voted in previous elections? were you a tory voter in 2019? was boris johnson your guy then? >> yes, i was a tory voter then and i voted for brexit as well . and i voted for brexit as well. and, but this year and next week , i'm still very much undecided because i don't think tonight has . it was a really great has. it was a really great experience for me. i thoroughly enjoyed it, but i don't think it's answered a lot of questions and talking to other people in

the audience, i don't think it's answered their questions either. >> who do you think won, mr blackstock ? blackstock? >> that's a really difficult one, because i don't think either of them answered the questions properly . even when questions properly. even when they were batting the questions backwards and forwards across themselves, they weren't answering the questions. so i would say it was probably a draw as to who won. i don't think ehheni as to who won. i don't think either. i think if you gauge the audience response on some of the questions, mr sunak certainly got a bigger applause than sir keir. >> mr blackstock used to work in a machine parts factory. you'd sold machine parts engineering? >> yes , engineering. >> yes, engineering. >> yes, engineering. >> do you think you could do a better job than sir keir starmer or rishi sunak? >> probably not, but they they've had years of wanting to do that. i wanted to do the job i did and thoroughly enjoyed it. so if they're doing the job that they're doing, they should be

doing a good job as well. >> and before we go, mr baxter, please hold up the question you asked for the viewers at home. so there you have it . the so there you have it. the question, patrick, which i think got most of the country cheering from their sofas from robert blackstock , robert blackstock, blackstock, robert blackstock, a hero is born tonight. >> that's that's our debate there. thank you very much, christopher. and thank you very, very much, robert. i'm going to whizz us back over now to my, my live audience, here, i believe you have a question, sir, for kwasi kwarteng and jeff a&e. >> yeah. so my question relates to immigration and i just don't know what this adversity is towards getting out of the echr we've got a revered supreme court justice, lord sumption , court justice, lord sumption, who believes that it's outdated. it's not fit for purpose. the mass migration experiment, it's not fit for purpose. the mass migration experiment , just mass migration experiment, just look to sweden. and malmo is now being ranked as dangerous as baghdadis being ranked as dangerous as baghdad is a national security threat. we need urgent action on this . i threat. we need urgent action on this. i do think the rwanda plan is a deterrent. is good. keir says that he wants to work with

european partners. look how good it's working in france. they're still coming over left, right and centre. so you know what party this is why you haemorrhaging support to reform. because you don't want to go through the echr and canada , through the echr and canada, singapore, australia, usa, they're all liberal democracies. they're not part of the echr. >> okay, can i get a quick show of hands in this room, please? who would get us out of the echr is there a strong feeling to leave these? it's a majority. yeah, there was a couple more gone up as well as peer pressure there, but. but yes. okay. all right. so i would say a vast majority of people in this room, from what i can see there, we're up for leaving the echr kwasi, i agree with your analysis. >> i think i think i mean, jeff has talked about the economy and they talked a lot about the tax issue. what's in constituencies like my former constituency, what's killing the conservative party. and you see it in these polls is this immigration issue, you know, reform, aren't campaigning on tax. you know, reform, aren't campaigning on tax . they didn't campaigning on tax. they didn't mention it. i don't think they've ever mentioned well, barely a bit but not much. and

this is a big issue. and i think the problem that we've had is that the echr rishi sunak recognises that on this issue, the conservative party is very split now. and this reminds me of actually john major in the 90s on europe and at some point he's going to have to well, let's see what happens next week. but whoever is the leader of the conservative party is going to have to make a call on that. and that's the difficulty we're in. >> okay, jeff, can labour really be trusted to stop the boats, do you think? >> of course. >> of course. >> and the reality is that the deterrent that has been talked about does not work. it has not stopped anyone coming to this country. 50,000 people have arrived under rishi sunak's premiership . there's no evidence premiership. there's no evidence that those people sitting there in france waiting are going to be deterred by the prospect of a handful going to rwanda, and it is a handful. and what was interesting about the debate tonight was that when pressed , tonight was that when pressed,

he couldn't actually say that everyone is going to rwanda. there's only going to be a small number on each flight, will not get anywhere near . the 50,000 and the more that will follow. so the reality is that policy, which is costing every taxpayer enormous amounts of money, is not working. enormous amounts of money, is not one (ing. enormous amounts of money, is not one ofg. enormous amounts of money, is not one of the other iconic >> one of the other iconic moments of that was that keir starmer asked rishi sunak starmer was asked by rishi sunak if going sit down and negotiate. >> that that was the funniest. >> that the funniest moment >> that was the funniest moment in debate, you're in the whole debate, you're saying going send saying why is he going to send it? that, isn't it? >> ask yourself this question then where are the 50,000? i'll tell they are. they're tell you where they are. they're in this in hotels up and down this country, for by country, being paid for by taxpayers. tell you taxpayers. why? why, i tell you why. conservative

government. >> do do with them? government. >> what do do with them? government. >> what do you do with them? government. >> what do you do? vith them? government. >> what do you do? wellhem? government. >> what do you do? wellhenme >> what do you do? well let me finish quite deliberately. >> stopped the process of >> have stopped the process of putting front of putting those people in front of immigration determine immigration judges to determine whether asylum whether or not they are asylum seekers, is seekers, i think, but this is important. that important. by stopping that process, paying process, we are all paying as taxpayers people taxpayers for those people to live in hotels. >> was absurd policy. >> i think rishi sunak's strongest debate strongest point in the debate was about was that point about the ayatollahs that if ayatollahs and the idea that if you're send to you're not going to send them to rwanda, sit down rwanda, you're going to sit down with return with the taliban and return these afghanistan a these people to afghanistan in a in process. is absurd. >> you would only return them under the law if they are found to be economic migrants and not genuine asylum seekers. that's the law. it's been the law under the law. it's been the law under the conservatives as much as under labour. >> that's the reality , is the >> that's the reality, is the reason why the conservative government has slowed down the processing of people coming here illegally is because they are afraid of the numbers that would then be found to be entitled to asylum. >> i wonder if one of the big problems for labour is that they don't appear to be afraid of the numbers that will be allowed to stay. >> no, that's not the position. >> no, that's not the position. >> we've made quite clear that it is necessary to have a more vigorous system . okay. vigorous system. okay. >> all right, my friend, over

there. go on. >> so keir starmer says he's going to use the courts to close down the criminal gangs. but surely just looking at the war on drugs for the last 50 years where there's money, there is no chance in shutting these people down. so without an actual deterrent , it's just not going deterrent, it's just not going to work, is it? >> well, there is a successful war on drugs carried out by the police there you go to any you go to any pub in the uk and it will tell you a different story. >> well yeah, i can point to some in my former constituency. >> are you going to say you back them for a second? >> the question was about gangs and gangs have been dealt with in large parts of the country. >> they're not dealt with 100, inevitably, but they are being deau inevitably, but they are being dealt with. and it's if you have criticism, it's criticism of the police, not of any other institution. >> every gang that gets shot down, another one springs up. there's so much money involved that they're just not going to shut it down. and it's the same with the immigration, sir, i

agree. >> i thought that that showed a bit of naivety. i mean, you mentioned malmo. i mean, the situation there is appalling and the idea that you're going to, somehow through the courts, shut this down, i think is not right. i think i think it's a, it's a much bigger problem than, than than can be dealt with just by going through, you know, sort of legal process in each individual case, you've got to change the policy and actually what jeff says is right. i mean, everything that we point out that we could have been improved, he's going to say, well, you had 14 years to deal with it. and that's that's i get that. but i think the situations change and we need to be more aggressive and focused on this. >> okay . >> okay. >> okay. >> great stuff this. i'm thoroughly enjoying it. so thank you very much everybody who's asked questions so far. this is this is really what we're all about here. so this is great. i'm going to whizz us back over to christopher hope who i believe has a fellow patrick with him , it remains to be seen with him, it remains to be seen if he's as handsome. of course , if he's as handsome. of course, but, christopher, who have you got? what's going . on? got? what's going. on? >> hi, patrick. with me now is patrick english from yougov, who

will tell us who's won? patrick english, who won that debate? >> so we've polled 1700 debate watchers, and they've given us a perfectly split decision. >> 50% said that rishi sunak won . 50% said that keir starmer won. now, it is interesting . is won. now, it is interesting. is that pre—debate that same sample expected? keir starmer to win by a margin of 2 to 1. so sunak has outperformed the expectations. but is it a killer blow to change the election at 5050? probably not. but he certainly came out the traps in a way which you haven't seen out from rishi sunak, have we recently. >> and keir starmer didn't really have an answer. he kept asking for silence a couple of times, certainly rishi sunak was a better performer than in the last debate we saw. >> he came out very punchy. perhaps that did surprise keir starmer, and it certainly went against the expectations to an extent to some of our debate watchers. but even within that number, nearly 20% of debate watchers who voted conservative in 2019 said that starmer won. so even beneath what looks like quite encouraging news for sunak, there are still some troubling stories. >> it's a long way to go and

it's now. week six starts tonight, doesn't it? in this election campaign, i wonder where sunak's been for so long, that kind of anger. and that's the question to starmer. what would you do on small boats? asked nine times. wasn't answered was it. i mean these kind of debating points work but will they cut through to the bottom line? the actual election day? >> well, the debate watchers also told us that sunak won on the issue of immigration and probably a lot to do with the way that he was able to pin his sama down through a lot of that debate. also on tax that was another area where sunak, the debate watchers said, did better. but on some other issues the economy, for example, at large, keir starmer did better. he also, according to our debate watchers, came across as more likeable. so there are, there are, there are things, i think, that both men can look at in this data and say, well, this is good news. we've won here and we've won there. but and then overall it coalesces into that perfectly split ballot 5050. >> did you find rishi sunak being too aggressive, too shouty. and maybe that worked against him. it worked in the room here. we certainly felt that sir keir starmer looked a bit more sleepy than him ,

bit more sleepy than him, really. but did it, did it m atter? >> matter? >> well, being quite aggressive and combative certainly can give and combative certainly can give a certain edge within a debate, but it really does turn off the public. we know from our polling that what the public really want above all else from these debates and from their politicians, is answers . and politicians, is answers. and when there is quite a lot of shouting and cutting across, they don't really like that because they don't feel like they're getting answered. and they're getting answered. and the one word we asked the debate, watching to public describe this debate in one word, and the one that came back to us was frustrating. i think that's a lot to do with it. >> do you think that questioner, robert blackstock, spoke for the uk ? he asked why this bunch of uk? he asked why this bunch of mediocre politicians are running this country. >> i certainly think that a lot of the public think this is a frustrating election. you know, they have a choice, really, what they're telling us between two parties, two leaders, neither of whom are popular. but however, in relatively, relatively speaking, keir starmer and the labour party are significantly more popular than the conservatives. so maybe none of the above election, maybe a no no election, but certainly not one where there's a very popular party or a very popular leader facing off against an unpopular

one. one. >> one. >> patrick patrick english there from yougov. i was reminded earlier, martin baxter from electoral calculus said, this is the oh no election, patrick. and it seems that might be about right. >> oh good stuff yet again, christopher. thank you very , christopher. thank you very, very much. now, one of the key flash points from tonight was the debate about gender and about women's spaces. i'm going to play a little clip from this and we're going to take a question from our audience . and question from our audience. and my two esteemed guests are going to have to answer it. so here we go to have to answer it. so here we 9° ' to have to answer it. so here we go , changing the law so that the go, changing the law so that the all equalities act recognises that sex means biological sex. >> and that will allow us to deliver on what vicky wants, which is to protect female only spaces. female only services. it's crystal clear for you. there is a choice on that question at this election because keir starmer is not matched. my pledge to reform the equalities act to pass new law. thatis equalities act to pass new law. that is the only way to deliver on what vicky says. and the reason he won't do that, i don't know, but he can explain is because he's not sure like i am, that when it comes to these matters, sex means biological

sex and that's how you protect female only spaces and services. >> okay , my friend on the front >> okay, my friend on the front row here, i believe you've got a question relating to that, have you, yeah, i thought, rishi sunak answered that correctly and i would support him . i got and i would support him. i got several doubts about keir starmer, he's leading a party which has never had a female leader . they. i which has never had a female leader. they. i mean, i think he, in his election process, he beat five women, and he also they also had to bring in women only shortlists. so really to, you know , like the mps. so you know, like the mps. so really can he really have the authority to say no about women when there could be a problem in the party? is there a problem in the party? is there a problem in the party? >> okay. do you think there's a do you think keir starmer has got a woman problem? >> i think there's every prospect of there being a woman leader of the labour party. and if you think back over labour's history, it's labour that introduced the equal pay act . introduced the equal pay act. it's labour that introduced the

sex discrimination act. both incidentally opposed by conservatives at the time. so the reality is that it's labour that has protected and enhanced and supported the rights of women. >> so if labour are so pro—women, why have the conservatives had three female prime ministers and labour had zero? >> i think that's a really good question. i do not know the answer to it, but the reality is that we need to do better. >> what about changing rooms now? what about what about women's spaces now? okay, what about the fact that, as it currently stands, it appears that under under a labour government , we might have gender government, we might have gender ideology reintroduced again in schools and it easier for adults to change their gender. and that really does, i think, mean that we're probably going to get more men and women's changing rooms. is that not a problem for keir starmer ? starmer? >> it's not a problem for keir starmer. it is a problem. >> or his wife maybe , probably. >> or his wife maybe, probably. >> or his wife maybe, probably. >> we do not want a situation. we do not want a situation clearly, where men can pretend to be women in order to gain

access to safe spaces where women are properly protected. that's the harm that this whole debate is really addressed at. and what we need to ensure is that women have safe spaces, whilst at the same time recognising there are a small number of people whose gender is not clear . even at birth, there not clear. even at birth, there are small number of people who psychologically, at a certain stage in their lives , change in stage in their lives, change in those circumstances. we need to have some sensitivity about this debate. it is not a debate where we should be sloganising. >> so. so look, i mean, i'm going to be much more simplistic. i sort of agree with what you're saying, but clearly what you're saying, but clearly what keir is doing is chasing what keir is doing is chasing what he thinks, where he thinks popular opinion is. so, you know , when he when he bent the knee rishi sunak not. no, no, but he's but but on this issue. yeah. clearly. i mean they're being very political. you know when black lives matter came in, keir and angela rayner took the knee. okay. that became less fashionable . and then he was pro fashionable. and then he was pro trans rights. and then now he

decides that tony blair's right when he says that a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina. you know, he's been shifting around. i totally get that. he's around. i totally get that. he's a clever politician. but as rishi said, there isn't any conviction in any of those positions. >> okay. >> okay. >> great stuff, i think we're going to play you a clip now from sir keir starmer earlier on.and from sir keir starmer earlier on. and it's on it's on tax tax, tax tax. let's hear it. >> we have set out in our manifesto all of our plans. they're fully funded. they're fully costed. and we've set out that we will not be increasing income tax. national insurance or vat. what the prime minister is doing, he's got he's got a manifesto that's got promises to you and everybody watching, which are unfunded because his chancellor has said that the money he's relying on has already been spent fine. >> and just before we go to my panel on this, does anyone know what keir starmer's dad did? >> anyone is of course, about

pay >> anyone is of course, about pay and being able to pay your own way and, you know, support your family. but it is also about dignity and respect and my dad worked in a factory all his life. he was a toolmaker and having a secure forjob him was really important to his respect and integrity. >> his dad was a there it is every single time. there we are. but look on the on the issue of tax. they're saying that the tories plans are unfunded. the tories plans are unfunded. the tories are saying labour's plans are unfunded as well. one of the key flash points for me was on pensioners though, and i would like a quick comment from each of you on this, what what rishi sunak was trying to get keir starmer to say was that he is going to tax pensioners. you said there's going to be a retirement tax. keir starmer didn't rule out jeff . didn't rule out jeff. >> that's not the way the debate is , has developed. the reality is, has developed. the reality is, has developed. the reality is that the conservatives made a promise that they cannot pay for in relation to pensions. and keir starmer was quite clear in

saying that we, the labour party, would maintain the budgetary policy set out by this conservative government and i remind you, patrick, that when we won the election in 1997, we kept the previous spending plans of the previous conservative government, and i anticipate that that will be something which labour will do because it allows time for stability. it allows time for stability. it allows time for stability. it allows time to think through what is then necessary. okay. >> all right. kwasi ageing population, we are going to end up with more people of pension age. do they have something to fear from keir starmer? >> i think that rishi's question was a good one and he's clearly trying to shape the triple lock and the triple lock plus, and how is he going to pay for and to, and how is he going to pay for it. well, he says he's going to do welfare reform and a bunch of spending restraint. that's always the difficult bit. but what he said, his fundamental point , i what he said, his fundamental point, i think is right, labour will come in and they will put up taxes. and actually the ifs said if the tories come in, they'll put up taxes because the

fundamental problem of the country is that we're not growing the economy. as this gentleman pointed out earlier, we're not growing the economy fast enough. so if we can't grow the economy, it doesn't matter who's in power. they're going to try and put up taxes. >> and that's why the labour party, the labour, and they're not being honest about that. and that's why labour's manifesto emphasises over and over again the necessity for growth. because if we had the kinds of levels of growth that we had under the last labour government , we would be in a much better position to finance the public service. >> i agree with you. i mean, that was one of the you know, i was involved with that liz truss. i mean, that was the fundamental problem. now you can say the execution was a dog's breakfast, but the fundamental problem remains the same. and i'm glad that labour have come around to that, and i would like to hear our government say more about that. >> okay. all right. so just shapps that's a good point for us to just just draw a line under that for now . under that for now. >> and just to remind everyone, if you didn't already know , we if you didn't already know, we are going to be in essex, i'm going to be in essex . fantastic. going to be in essex. fantastic. on election night, as michelle dewberry and me patrick christys

host our gb news exclusive election night coverage. so if you want to be a part of our exclusive live audience in essex, you can apply now by either scanning a qr code that i believe is on your screens at the moment, or if you're listening on radio, just go to gb news.com and you'll see it on there. so it's quite, quite straightforward really do come and be a part of it. it's all going to be a good laugh, actually. i know some of the people that we've got booked in for it and it is going to be fantastic . but for it and it is going to be fantastic. but coming up next with you through the very first of tomorrow's newspaper front pages as well. so you'll be bang up with of that. up to date with all of that. we'll be joined by tonight's panel of top pundits. this is patrick christys tonight. we're only on gb news

all right. welcome back to patrick christys tonight. now it's time to bring you a first look at tomorrow's newspaper front pages. let's do it. all right. start with the metro , aristocrat. guilty over metro, aristocrat. guilty over secret birth. yeah. devastating story. this she and partner facing a new trial now, though over the baby's death. that is the aristocrat constance marten and her partner have been found guilty of hiding the birth of their baby in that case, about a year or so ago now. did grip the nation, didn't it ? for all the nation, didn't it? for all the wrong reasons. i'm going to whizz us over to the i revealed russian hackers behind nhs attack are part of cyber army, protected by the kremlin. it's got all the headlines. is it hackers using russian servers are working under moscow's protection to carry out attacks on things like our nhs. let's go

to the independent. starmer squares up to striking doctors. he says i won't give you 35. i think we might talk about this in a second. as junior doctors stage latest five day walkout, which i think starts tomorrow actually, yeah . starmer saying actually, yeah. starmer saying he's not going to give him to their pay demands switches over to the daily mirror, holly kidnap kit. this is a story in relation to holly willoughby. and this , well, alleged monster. and this, well, alleged monster. isuppose and this, well, alleged monster. i suppose you would call him, who wanted to? according to the courts, murder and commit other vile acts towards her. i'm just going to wrap us for off this one now with the daily mail. you are taking people for fools. rishi's furious blast at keir starmer sunak slams labour leader's nonsensical plans to tackle illegal migrants migration. and he kept using the word surrender at this debate, telling voters not to surrender our borders or indeed anything else to sir keir starmer's labour party. that's the bulk of

your front pages for tomorrow. i'm still joined in the studio by our wonderful live studio audience. i'm also going to, you'll see kwasi still here for us. we've got adam brooks on the end. we've also got rebecca reed here. and can i just start on what was in the independent? because i sense that this is going to be leading a lot of the news agenda tomorrow. these are obviously tomorrow's front pages. the doctors strike, i think is upon us or will be at midnight. starmer saying he's not going to give in to 35. rebecca, i'll just bring you in on this. he's got a massive issue. starmer how does he get to grips with the unions? >> i think he's got a better situation than rishi does because he's got a fresh start and i think there's a lot of bad blood. the negotiations have been going on for what feels like forever, and i think at this point, keir may be able to get away with giving less simply because he's not rishi. and i hope that happens because i'd like everybody to not have appointments. >> yeah. would that not. adam. then i'll come to you. kwasi would that not indicate that maybe these strikes have been political all along? >> of course i have. scottish junior doctors settled, i think around 12% now. why haven't they

done that with our government? because they've come in at 35% and priced themselves out of negotiations. i think, you know , negotiations. i think, you know, they've put a barrier up. why should you negotiate with such greed? and at the end of the day , they're going to cost lives this weekend like they have cost lives in previous strikes. and it's unforgivable. >> kwasi i suppose one thing is true, which is that, as it currently stands, the conservative party are incapable of getting around this. >> i think this is purely political. i mean, 35% think of it. i mean, on what planet when inflation is now at 2, would you ask for a 35% pay rise? that's not realistic. i think they're setting up a political, tussle. and if labour get in, it'll be their problem. but it wouldn't surprise me if they settled for, like, a lot less than 35, i mean, they haven't had a pay rise for. >> they haven't had a significant pay rise for a long time. but 35 earning less than they were in 2006 or something in real time. >> let's also remember they

chose to go into a profession knowing the pay. the pay structure. >> yes , but but they they are >> yes, but but they they are paid much worse than they thought they were going to be. when you take. >> but 35. i've never heard of such a thing. >> no, absolutely. i've never heard that. i think they are trying to course correct for a very long time of not being given pay rises in fairness. and also if you are that important, if you are the most essential service, then you do have a very powerful negotiation tool. to me, maybe we should pay them more because they're so important. but the fact that they've started the strike now, a week before general election , a week before general election, strikes me as highly political. >> i think some of the other timings of them were , i would timings of them were, i would argue, bang out of order. actually, we had some over christmas. we've had some, you know, at peak times. right. and that's good negotiation. >> they're powerful. that's why these unions are powerful dying. >> and someone's not pleased about this weekend. >> i'm not because of this strike. >> just think of that. i think it's very irresponsible. >> people also lose their lives because of bad management within the nhs. and also because the doctors are overworked, underpaid, stressed, often having to take on a lot of you're justifying but i do think they probably could make a very good case for somewhere closer to 20. no chance. i'm not an economist, but i think i don't mind saying i am being told that

if i don't play you something involving ed davey, we all go to ofcom prisons, so . ofcom prisons, so. >> right, here is something from the liberal democrat leader, sir ed davey, i believe that he was asked about legalising cannabis. there we go on cannabis, a legally regulated market for cannabis. >> this document says. will this lead to a cannabis addled zombies roaming the streets? >> we want to get rid of the very potent. yes. health damaging cannabis. the skunk is often called. we want to get that out herbals okay. but yeah, so a regulator market like they've done in many states in they've done in many states in the united states, canada and european countries , that's found european countries, that's found to help young people actually , to help young people actually, it means that the resource is going to be put on the criminal gangs , these really nasty people gangs, these really nasty people selling their misery. we want to crack down on them. and that's a sensible evidence, led way of doing it . doing it. >> okay. very quickly, very quickly. can i just get a little show of hands on who would legalise cannabis to three

people here? the rest of you and the rest council. so. all right, more nuanced views. so, so okay, so not just a blanket legalisation. would you . legalisation. would you. >> yes i would, but as he says, not the sort of hydroponic strains that have links with schizophrenia. >> okay, fine . so okay so you >> okay, fine. so okay so you legal equality. >> but if you legalise it you can regulate it. so it should be better quality, properly grown. the kind of stuff that you would have been smoking in the 70s, not the stuff that you get . not the stuff that you get. >> is there a compelling case for how much we could gain in tax revenue? >> no, i wouldn't, i wouldn't legalise it. i mean, the fact that you've said it's got to be nuanced, it's got it'll be very difficult to police. you know, this is the good cannabis. that's the bad cannabis. i think it's just much easier to i know a guy kwasi. >> i can see you out. >> all right. >> all right. >> i think that's my. it's just much easier to maintain the same squirrel from, from experience , squirrel from, from experience, i've had several friends over the years growing up that were cannabis users, and they've got mental health issues, some are bipolar. it's held them back from becoming successful in their lives . alcohol too. so, their lives. alcohol too. so, it's not something that i would

want to see. i've got three children. i'd be horrified if they become cannabis users. i think it stinks. i don't want our streets smelling of it. so no, i'm against this. >> it is everywhere, isn't it? i mean, that is another aspect. i mean, that is another aspect. i mean, it is there's a lot of nodding in the audience, though. it bothers you, does it? the walking around, the smell of it. i'll take it. yeah. >> i mean , cigarette smell >> i mean, cigarette smell pretty bad too. and alcohol is very bad for you and very bad for your mental health. there are lots of things, but there's are lots of things, but there's a distinction. >> there isn't there? because those things are now legal. and you would you would have to illegalise them. yeah, but whereas cannabis is illegal and you're saying we should legalise it and i'm saying we shouldn't. >> i mean, i think people should probably be allowed to ingest whatever they want within their choice, but it's also a starter drug for many harder drugs as well. >> so, you know, you get used to cannabis, you want the next high. >> i'm not sure that's necessarily true. >> it's very true. >> it's very true. >> but it's interesting with ed davey because he's trying to get noficed. davey because he's trying to get noticed . and that's obviously noticed. and that's obviously some a policy that is . some a policy that is. >> okay, can i just say, well, thank you to everybody here. and i would like to say a massive thank you to you all for turning

up, for giving up your evening, for being a part of it in our watch party, for being such an active part of this show. so genuinely. thank you so, so, so much. everybody i'm back tomorrow night at 9 pm. headliners are up next. give yourselves a massive round of applause. well, hello . applause. well, hello. >> for a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news >> hello and welcome to the latest update from the met office for gb news following another hot day. for many, it's warm overnight but cooler air is on the way and windier weather. this unseasonably deep low pressure arriving for thursday and friday. that's going to bnng and friday. that's going to bring some unseasonable strong winds to western scotland and northern ireland. now it's not been hot everywhere during wednesday, but for much of central and southeastern england it has been another very warm or

hot one. and it's going to stay warm in these areas overnight . warm in these areas overnight. despite the clear spells 17 celsius further west and north, we've got showery rain moving in cloud and an increased breeze. so by dawn much more unsettled across parts of western scotland, northern ireland, the winds picking up strength through the morning, bands of rain moving into the west coast. we've also got some heavy showers pushing through the northern isles. perhaps the odd rumble of thunder , brighter rumble of thunder, brighter skies for much of the rest of scotland , feeling cooler here scotland, feeling cooler here and for much of northern and western england. wales cloudier conditions to begin things although the rain on the weather front that is making the change tending to peter out. and really it's just a band of cloud and a few spots of rain as it pushes into the midlands. and then by the afternoon, east anglia in the afternoon, east anglia in the south—east, as that rain arrives and as the cloud thickens, the wind changes direction . temperatures aren't direction. temperatures aren't going to reach the highs that we saw in the last couple of days. we're looking at closer to 2526 celsius in the east and

southeast, but sunshine

>> you with gb news. in a moment. headliners. but first, let's take you through the latest news headlines. and tonight, the two main party leaders have clashed over illegal immigration in a television debate. with just a week to go before voters go. sir keir starmer and rishi sunak arrived at nottingham trent university earlier on to take part in the question and answer session, where they took questions from and invited studio audience, with one asking how each leader was planning to control illegal immigration. here's what they said . here's what they said. >> yes, we do need to process, but what will you do with them? we've got to process the claim you're sitting there with tens of thousands of people, but it's just illegal. >> migrants come to our country. what do you do with them ? what do you do with them? process their claims. simple question. well, can you i can

tell people what i will do with them. i will put them on planes to rwanda because they shouldn't be able to days. to rwanda because they shouldn't be able to days . what will you be able to days. what will you do with illegal migrants who come to our country? what will you do with them? it's a simple question. >> his plan is to. >> his plan is to. >> will you do with them? >> will you do with them? >> they need to be processed at the moment, processed ? the moment, processed? >> well, a new poll has predicted that the conservatives are set to lose most of their seats in the election, and will likely have fewer seats than the liberal democrats, which means, to according the new research, the lib dems are most likely to become the official opposition party. the new poll looks like this. it's from electoral calculus, and it's forecast that labour will win 450 seats. the liberal democrats 71 and the conservatives 60. it's likely the reform party will win around 18 seats, according to this research, including those of nigel farage, richard tice and lee anderson. the forecast labour victory would be more significant than tony blair's landslide election result of 97,

and it would be the largest win by any political party over the last 100 years. meanwhile labour has confirmed tonight that a party member has been arrested in islington in london. it follows a police investigation into the sixteen scam concerning some westminster mps. the police investigation relates to at least 12 men who had received unsolicited text messages in the so—called honeytrap scandal. labour says it has administratively suspended the member from the party and cannot comment further due to the ongoing police investigation . ongoing police investigation. now the shadow health secretary, wes streeting, has maintained his position that a 35% pay rise for junior doctors is a non—starter. but he says he will reopen talks with the bma if labour wins the general election. meanwhile, nhs leaders are warning of major disruption as a result of the combination of the walkouts and the current

heatwave.