ofa of a general election middle of a general election campaign .7 really? do middle of a general election campaign ? really? do you still campaign? really? do you still support this? and do you actually think it will be resolved by the incoming government? also do you think there should be a legal right for us all to switch off from work outside of work hours? your thoughts ? all of that and more. thoughts? all of that and more. but first, tonight, 6:00 news headunes. headlines. >> michelle. thank you. i'm polly middlehurst and this is the latest from the gb newsroom, where one person in england has died in the ongoing e coli outbreak. and it is, they think, unked outbreak. and it is, they think, linked to salad. that's according to the uk health security agency. it comes after a recent outbreak which saw 86 people admitted to hospital. that's to according figures released last week. a number of food manufacturers have had to recall their sandwiches , their recall their sandwiches, their wraps and their ready salads

sold in major supermarkets and retail chains over fears they could be linked to possible contamination . the health contamination. the health security agency, linking it now to lettuce in the sandwiches . in to lettuce in the sandwiches. in other news, the number of metropolitan police officers under investigation over allegedly placing bets on the timing of the election has risen to at least seven. the force says one protection officer assigned to the prime minister was arrested last week and has since been bailed. a further six officers, though, have now been identified as having placed bets on the election as well . sir on the election as well. sir keir starmer has said today a labour government would work with whoever's in power in france on tackling illegal migrant journeys across the engush migrant journeys across the english channel from france. sir keir starmer and rishi sunak returned to the campaign trail today after clashing over illegal immigration and the betting row on a tv debate last night, the prime minister says the country would be in danger under a labour government being

led by a leader who has no plan to stop the boats . to stop the boats. >> starmer changes his mind on almost every major position that he has taken and times that we're living in, you need leadership which has the courage of its convictions. that's what ihave. of its convictions. that's what i have. you have to ask yourself why is he not telling you his plan for the country, what he wants to do? because he probably doesn't think they're going to like it when you hear it, right? we know, as you saw last night, those of you that were watching the debate, absolutely no answers about how to tackle immigration, right. i've got a plan. we're bringing immigration down. we've got a plan to stop the boats. he would make us the soft touch of europe when it comes to that issue. >> well, sir keir starmer responded, telling gb news that the issue of illegal migration was much more than just a border issue . issue. >> record numbers of people are coming here in small boats. he's lost control of our borders, literally lost control not only of the numbers that are coming , of the numbers that are coming, but also who's coming. and so this is not just a border issue,

it's a national security issue . it's a national security issue. the deterrent is smashing the gangs that are running this vile trade so that nobody, but nobody gets into a boat to cross the channel. the prime minister is simply interested in a gimmick. the rwanda scheme for people who've already arrived here. a few hundred people. >> sir keir starmer now the former newcastle united owner, sir john hall, has switched his sirjohn hall, has switched his support to reform uk after previously donating tens of thousands of pounds to the conservative party. he was cheered on at a reform speech near sunderland, where party leader nigel farage was speaking. mr farage said it was a privilege to welcome sirjohn a privilege to welcome sir john to the family and said he'd made a substantial donation to the reform party's campaign. he said he feels like the tories have let him down. >> the conservative party has let me down. there have been a failure for the last many weeks , failure for the last many weeks, for the last 14 years, and they don't speak now, for my english

is my way of life, which i feel is my way of life, which i feel is under threat. and i looked around basically who i could find to speak for me and the reform party. i feel tonight is the only ones who are going to speak and about saving my engush speak and about saving my english culture. >> junior doctors in england are walking out in the 11th time in almost a year. the five day strike they're planning continues in the long running dispute with the government over pay- dispute with the government over pay. they're asking for a 35% pay pay. they're asking for a 35% pay rise, which labour has said is a non—starter. pay rise, which labour has said is a non—starter . but they say is a non—starter. but they say industrial action will take place over the summer if negotiations don't move forward. the bma is now saying it's already held talks with the labour party . let's focus now on labour party. let's focus now on the search for the missing british teenager jay slater in tenerife. his mother says some of the money raised by a crowdfunding appeal will now be withdrawn to help in the search for her son. the appeal so far has raised more than £36,000

online, and the for search 19 year old jay slater has entered its 11th day after he went missing while on holiday in tenerife. and yesterday spanish police deployed helicopters above ground and sniffer dogs on the ground in that mountainous area of the island. as the search for jay slater goes on. england's football squad has been training for their first knockout game against slovakia at the euros that's taking place on sunday. the three lions topped their group before getting into the knockout stages of the competition. they'll be without their midfielder though. phil foden. he's had to leave training and return to the uk for the birth of his third child. we wish him well . those child. we wish him well. those are the latest gb news headlines for now. i'm polly middlehurst more for you in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward

slash alerts . slash alerts. >> thank you very much for that, polly. i am michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00. interesting few stories in those headunes interesting few stories in those headlines that jay slater story very, very bizarre. it seems to get bizarre more bizarre by the day, if you ask me. what do you make to it all? have you donated to that crowdfunding campaign? i'll be interested to hear if you have. what was your motivation, what do you think to the search so far ? also, you the search so far? also, you know, we can't win in this life, can we? we're to told eat healthily, get your salads in, get your five a day. you you go out, you get your salads. now you've got this whole e.coli thing popping up. what on earth is this world coming to, is there anything these days there could just be a healthy, positive good for us. get in touch. tell me your thoughts. i'm with you till seven alongside me tonight. i've got the former tory minister and a new face to this programme, robert halfon. and alongside him, the former labour minister, bill rammell. good evening to

both of you. we love a new face on this programme. so you are very welcome tonight. and you two, you two used to fight it out, didn't you, over the same seat we did. >> i beat him twice and then he beat me once. yeah, yeah, but i'm the first mp to leave harlow voluntarily because i've voluntarily because i've voluntarily stepped down. >> but we're getting it in early. >> we're frenemies. yeah. >> we're frenemies. yeah. >> frenemies. yeah well, i was going to ask you about that, actually, about because of course. well, we've all run, haven't we, in political campaigns now, it does get very nasty, doesn't it? so it's quite interesting that you guys have been able to stay somewhat friendly. yeah. >> well that was after right. wasn't quite the same at the time. yeah. >> at the beginning it was more adversarial. but i think as, as we've gone along i think we've developed a mutual respect. right and i think you can very strongly disagree with somebody while still acting civilly and engaging with them. >> and bill was a very, dare i say this, he was a very good mp for harlow before i turned up. so i, i used to learn from him

and thought if i got in, i have to do what he does well, he's going to get like a mutual back scratching society and you've doneit scratching society and you've done it well, the check's in the post. >> well, i don't know. are you in harlow? because actually you can tell me, who do you reckon was your best mp out of these two? get in touch. don't be shy. i do want to know what you think. i'll tell them who wins that little battle at the end of this program, get in touch with me all the usual ways. you know how by now you can email gb views @gbnews. com. you can go to the website gbnews.com/yoursay or of course, you can tweet or text me wherever you're watching or listening. don't forget, you can take me on the radio with you if you need to pop out tonight. you are very welcome indeed tonight. so did you watch it, the debate last night. first and foremost. did both of you watch it? >> yeah. oh, of course, in its entirety, yeah, 100. >> did you? i will make a confession. i started to watch it, and then i just thought, oh, really? i've heard all of this. i found it a little bit dull. so i found it a little bit dull. so i switched over and i watched an

alternate hastings instead. featuring actually two people from this program, matt goodwin was on it, peter hitchens was on it. and i watched different perspectives, and i found that a lot more interesting than the same. oh, you missed an electrifying moment because rishi. >> rishi prime minister rishi sunak said to starmer, you say you're going to negotiate with countries and you're going to send them back. and he said, are you really going to negotiate? because most of these, migrants come from iran and afghanistan. are you really going to go and negotiate with the ayatollahs and the taliban? that was an electrifying moment of the debate. >> was it? well, we don't forget that. jonathan ashworth he was pushed on that. wasn't he a couple of days ago, on a programme over in the bbc by victoria derbyshire. we debated that actually last night because of course, nobody thinks that they're going to do that. so i've noticed now there's been a softening of language, people saying actually they're going to create returns agreements with the eu. i did watch some of the debate. i will confess, i thought one of the most interesting points was where he was asked a question about, are you going to for stand up women's rights? and keir starmer kind of waffled around it. rishi

sunak went on about having two daughters and i was shouting at the screen. i was saying, that's not what they're talking about. what they're talking about is protecting single—sex spaces and then, of course, there was a secondary follow up question. we kind of got there a little bit, but i can tell you one of the questions that's captivating people's comments and thoughts today. did you hear the guy that basically asked are these two the best we've got? if you missed it, watch a you to really the best we've got to be the next prime minister of our great country. what do you think to that harsh or fair. what do you think to that. >> no i get people are frustrated with both the political leaders. but i you know, i used to have a big poster in my office in the department of education when i was a minister, and it was from a great american president called, teddy roosevelt. and if can i just read this quote, you may. and he said, it's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them

better. the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust, sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, but who actually strives to do the deeds, who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause throughout the best knows, in the end the triumph of high achievement. who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails, while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat? and the reason why i read that quote out is because it is to easy criticise from the sidelines. it is easy to say a bit like statler and waldorf from the muppet show, to say what a terrible show. and yet these people, starmer, whether it's starmer, whether it's my guy rishi sunak, they're out every day, they're trying to do the best for their what they believe for their country. even if i don't agree with what starmer says. don't agree with what starmer says . and i think, i think says. and i think, i think people should give them a little bit more bit a little bit more slack and understand that it's much easier to criticise from an

armchair. it's much harder to actually do the stuff when you're in government. bill. >> i think that's true. and look, michelle, one of the things when you're liberated from frontline politics, you can actually candidly and forcefully give your own view . i thought give your own view. i thought the guy's question was, frankly, quite arrogant and dismissive. and for a man, he acknowledged he voted for boris johnson in 2019. let's just say his judgement about good political leadership, i think, is slightly off the money. let me be even handed. however whatever you think of the politics of starmer and sunak , they're both serious, and sunak, they're both serious, diligent and hardworking. and we live in times where i think we need that kind of leadership. after johnson, after truss crashing the economy, you know , crashing the economy, you know, flamboyance, exuberance. we need serious, hard working people who are going to put the country to. right. and i think if you had a charismatic politician coming forward now i'm really not sure they would cut the mustard. >> what i want is a prime minister. i'm less worried about charisma. i'm what i want is a

prime minister who's going to solve complex problems and what i've known from rishi sunak is that he does solve complex problems. whether it was the northern ireland agreement, whether it was dealing with scotland and the trans stuff that nicola sturgeon was doing, whether it's sorting out the economy , if you remember what economy, if you remember what the state of the economy was in just two years ago, we're not out of the woods yet, but it's a lot better with inflation down at 2. i want somebody who's going to solve complex problems and i know, but hold on a minute, because this whole bringing inflation down to 2% and all the rest of it, that wasn't massively within the government's control. >> in the same way that when inflation was sky high, they were very quick to say it's outside of our hands, but things like energy prices, ukraine, whatever. >> but if we had given in to all the public sector pay rises , the public sector pay rises, inflation, you know, the demands on the public sector, the inflation would have gone up. we also amongst the highest, fastest growth in, in in europe, the energy prices are coming down. he said that we have to deal with with inflation. if he messed up the economy, inflation would have gone up. by the way,

when inflation was high, everyone was blaming the government. so when the government. so when the government lowers it, they can't just say, well, it's nothing to do with him. he made it very clear that it was his target to cut inflation. and he's done that. >> but he's not delivering. robert, you know, nhs waiting lists are spiralling out of control. you know we've got the net immigration numbers three times higher than when labour left office. and i think rishi sunak's problem and i think he is a decent serious person. but i don't think he's up to top level leadership and he comes across as detached. one of the most revealing things for me from the sky news debate. the immediate after debate poll gave it to keir starmer 2 to 1, but on the question of in touch with ordinary people, keir won 71% to 13. i think that's a big problem for rishi sunak. he's not seen as in touch with ordinary people. >> you know, any government coming out of covid and the covid pandemic, they the nhs waiting lists are all going to go up. they went up by millions. >> they were up before the pandemic, massively, massively increased because of the covid

pandemic. >> millions and millions of people who couldn't get their bafic people who couldn't get their basic treatments because of what went on during covid. and we're facing the consequences of, of that now. so in every government across europe that was in power dunng across europe that was in power during covid has faced the same kind of difficulties. and also challenges, you know, political challenges, you know, political challenges from the public, who, of course, are frustrated with the cost of living challenges and the aftermath of covid. >> but but all governments face huge external events. i mean, towards the end of our period, we face the world banking crisis. yes. you faced ukraine. yes, you faced the covid pandemic. but people judge parties over their record in office. and if you take the nhs as an example, when we left office, the maximum waiting time for an operation was 18 weeks. today it's over 18 months and people know that from their everyday experience. >> no, but bill, i think people in labour have got a bit of front really, and we'll come on to the nhs a little bit later on in the programme because of course you've got the junior doctor strikes again. but when i

hear labour bashing the tories i just look and i think i don't know how you dare because, when you look at wales and the situation in wales, which is of course primarily labour run, i'm looking at some ons data that came out. i think yesterday or the day before, when you look at numbers of people that have been waiting more than 52 weeks for pre—planned care, it's nine times higher in wales than in england. but it's i think you've got a bit of an odd a bit of cheek. >> i haven't got a cheek. it's dnven >> i haven't got a cheek. it's driven by the financial settlement. that's the overriding issue. and the real comparison is not wales, it's the uk as a whole. and under the last labour government, a very convenient thing. >> you see labour should be holding up wales as a look at, look at this everyone. this is our kind of you know, it's our, it's the, it's the utopia. we've had control of this place. look at how wonderfully we've done that. and when i push it to you and say to you, it's actually quite bad. comparably to england, then you go, oh no, no, no, don't look at that bit. look at it, look at the uk as a

whole. >> michelle. it's a small country of 3 million people. you compare like for like on on virtually every indicator for the national health service. the record of the last labour government is hugely better than this one. 18 weeks plays 18 months was adjusted for population that was already taken care. 18 weeks plays 18 months. and when we left office, the nhs had the highest satisfaction ratings in its history . well, they're rock history. well, they're rock bottom now. >> i will come back to the nhs. everyone always willing to celebrate good things that you say that labour have done in wales. >> but when it comes to nhs now, incredibly poor performance, you say oh, it's nothing to do with them. indeed, a small size, but don't worry because we shall come back to the nhs . i'm come back to the nhs. i'm interested. why do you think it's arrogant from the gentleman in the audience to say, are these two the best we've got? what's arrogant about that? >> well, it's a bit like roberts quote from teddy roosevelt. you know, it's the dismissal of people who are in the arena trying to improve things and make things better. and, you know, this was a guy after the debate , he acknowledged he voted debate, he acknowledged he voted for boris johnson, who in my view is the biggest charlatan

and liar we've ever had as prime minister. so i think his judgement on what amounts to good leadership is seriously flawed. >> well, this was a fellow who was called robert blackstock. he was called robert blackstock. he was actually on gb news this morning. he was asked about that question. >> listen, really answer any of the questions specifically. and thatis the questions specifically. and that is what i think really annoys the british public that our politicians, they say an awful lot of words, but they don't mean anything. and we haven't got anybody that's got any charisma . you know, if any charisma. you know, if you're on the world stage, you know, representing the uk, then you've got to have something that that the foreign journalists and the foreign politicians say, oh, we know who that is. it's the british prime minister. >> one of my viewers, maria seesahal >> one of my viewers, maria seesahai, has got in touch and said that fella in the audience, the one you just heard there, robert blackstock, she said, he's a hero. he spoke for me. and from what i hear most of the country, he definitely wasn't

arrogant at all. >> well, you know, it's a judgement that's the way he came across to me. and i tell you what, right? you know, i'm, i'm labour to my core and tony blair, in my view, is the best labour leader that we've had, a charismatic figure. but do you know what i think the kind of leadership we need for these times, which are dangerous and serious, is the kind of steady , serious, is the kind of steady, honest, decent leadership that we'll get from keir starmer. i don't think tony would cut through in this environment, but when you're talking about tony blair, there will be people at home shouting out about things like iraq. >> there'll be people talking about, was it 2004? well, actually we're going to come to immigration in just a second after this break. but people will shout back and say, one of the reasons that we're in the predicament that we're in now is 2004, the expansion of the eu to the eastern bloc, we didn't put any transitional controls at all in place, and therefore we had loads of people flooding the market with cheap labour and it's caused lots of the problems that we find ourselves in today. >> i mean, labour's well, people who came here from eastern europe were hard working and helped within our economy , no helped within our economy, no controls most other countries.

>> i think there was only about two other countries, in fact. actually, you know what pressed pause on this. we're going to do this after the break because we do need to go to a break. but i'm fascinated about this conversation as well, angela raynen conversation as well, angela rayner, she reckons that they're going to get all of these migrants out of hotels in a yean migrants out of hotels in a year, and that every single council essentially going to be forced to take fair share. what do you think to that? see you think to that? see you in two.

hello, everyone. i'm michelle dewberry with you until 7:00 tonight. this is dewbs & co tonight. this is dewbs& co alongside me. my panel. the former tory minister robert halfon and the former labour minister bill rammell. in a second, i'll be crossing to our political editor, christopher herbert. but in the meantime, you were just saying that you thought that tony blair was the best prime minister we've ever had. and i was saying to you, i could hear the groans from certain members of my audience from here. and i was pointing

out to you things like, people will shout back, iraq. people will shout back, iraq. people will talk about 2004 and the expansion of the eu and the complete lack of controls, what would you say to that? >> you look at the polling evidence. tony blair is seen across the political spectrum as one of the best prime ministers that we've had , you talk about that we've had, you talk about the expansion of the eu. we were in the european union. you could have had transitional protection. we chose not to because we thought there were benefits. and i think there were benefits. and i think there were benefits. the people who came here worked very hard and contributed to our economic growth. but i'm really not going to take lectures from this conservative government about migration. you know, listening to sunak last night when he was talking about surrender, you know , net migration is three know, net migration is three times higher today than it was when the last labour government was in, in office. they've completely lost control of the system. yes, there's been the boats crisis, but it's also because they've not trained british people. they've not paid

them enough to take the work, them enough to take the work, the work that that foreigners are coming in to do. >> first of all, under blair, they said that there would be a small amount of people from eastern europe who came and we had about 708,000 100,000 people from eastern europe. so when you say take no lectures, it all started. all this stuff under under the labour party and we have been trying every step of the way to bring through legislation to stop migration into the country. the labour party have opposed it every step of the way. they opposed rwanda . of the way. they opposed rwanda. they have opposed every single, law that we have brought through to try and deal with the backlog, to try and deal. and now angela rayner is saying, well, we'll put them all in council houses and we haven't got enough council houses, social housing as it is, and she wants to give them to, to migrants. >> do you know what, robert? you say you're trying everything that you can. you know your party can. you didn't. that you can. you know your party can. you didn't . but your party can. you didn't. but your party can. you didn't. but your party effectively campaigned for brexit and leaving the european union. no one who voted for

brexit thought your party would let immigration rip in the way that it has. the numbers have gone through the roof and yes, there were east europeans in this country who were working incredibly hard. you've replaced them with a whole host of other people who who are enormously challenging, actually. >> we brought through, for example, we've stopped people bringing in dependents who are international students. there's been a whole range of measures that the government brought in to try and reduce migration. it has 685,000 250,000 under the last labour, last year we cut the boats down by two third. but the boats down by two third. but the fact is every single measure, the boat numbers are going up. last year they went down by and they're going up in this year. yeah. but they went down by a third last year. we also cut down the number of albanians coming through by huge, huge amounts because we made an agreement with the government. we've made agreements with the french. absolutely. there's a lot more that needs to be done. but if we don't have the rwanda scheme, you guys and you guys get in next week, it's going to be open door policy. if you think it's bad now, it will be much, much

worse because they are waiting on the border of calais. they are waiting on the border of calais that all the traffickers for the green light, for labour to get in so they can pass the boats because they know you're going to not only now are you going to not only now are you going to not only now are you going to stop the rwanda scheme, but according to angela renee, you're going to give them all council houses as well. >> robert, with respect, that's pantomime politics. it is not you know, we are not in favour of open borders. we weren't in favour of open borders under the last hold on. we weren't in favour of open borders. at the last labour government, i was a minister at the foreign office who worked with my counterpart in the home office on a weekly bafis in the home office on a weekly basis to drive down the asylum numbers, and we had huge agreement. >> we made significant. >> we made significant. >> let's talk about what actually happened. we drove the number of asylum claims down significantly because we engaged seriously. and the things like rwanda, it will take 300 years to clear the backlog based on rwanda. that's not a scheme. it's a gimmick. that's not true. >> rwanda is a deterrent if one if people know that once they come here, they're going to be central and it will stop the traffickers from one, even if it works to the maximum extent the

1% of people will go to lot, thatis 1% of people will go to lot, that is not a deterrent. and you and the labour party in the house, the house of lords, did everything they could to stop it everything they could to stop it every step of the way. and every time we've had to bring in more legislation because you won't even give it a chance to see it working. and it would have worked because it would have been. >> do you know what you and i were talking earlier about? why rishi sunak chose to go early to the country? i think one of the reasons was he didn't want to be tested on rwanda. when a handful of flights took off and the situation got worse. >> well, i think that, what, i think if we'd got the rwanda scheme through and i think if the conservatives did win the election, it would act as a significant deterrent. and you have no policy to deal with it. you just say you're going to strengthen the border force. well, we've done that already, but you are offering a green light to the traffickers. and now she's angela rayner has said now she's angela rayner has said now she's angela rayner has said now she's going to give him a council house. well, well sorry. >> you know what we're talking aboutis >> you know what we're talking about is people who are genuine refugees who've been given the right to settle in this country. you've already you've already said, are you saying who are

here? are you saying you just put them in a small number of communities around the country and that you create massive community? >> what i'm saying is that we should have we need to give priority for social for housing, those who are british citizens, who have been here, who are waiting on the waiting list. right. >> can i just can i? i'm listening intently to this, but i actually think the pair of you, both of your parties, have been an absolute shambles when it comes to immigration. i think you've both been appalling, and i think you've both collectively given rise to the likes of reform uk. nigel farage, for example, he was speaking about this very issue of immigration today. let's take a listen to him. >> it is mass migration on a level that in fact begins not just to divide and damage communities and potentially to set people apart from each other, which is dangerous, but also , i think, a feeling that also, i think, a feeling that perhaps something about our culture is directly under threat, that sense of who we are

and that this is a problem. and that's why i've said from the start, this really should be the immigration election , you see. immigration election, you see. >> and this is the thing for many people, it is the immigration election. and i was just letting you guys thrash out. but respectfully, i don't think either of you get it when i'm pointing out to you back in 2004, what happened under the labour government, you're trying to argue to me that that was some kind of positive thing, because loads of europeans, eastern europeans came here to work. what actually happened was it created wage depression . so it created wage depression. so you had scenarios where british workers were being massively undercut within their trades, whether it was plumbing or whatever it was. it caused people huge problems when it came to their standard of living. it also, accelerated the seeds of discomfort that i would say went to on lead to brexit. so i think that that was one of the starting points. and you don't seem to think that that was such a bad thing when it comes to your lot, respectfully. i mean, as bill says, he's completely gone out of control and we can talk about rwanda and whether or not it will work and

all the rest of it. if rishi sunak was so confident that the rwanda plan was going to work, he would have waited until the plane was off the ground and had been successful, and then he would have called an election and he would have said, see, look at how successful that was. and he didn't because he doesn't think it's going to work either. >> everybody was saying every five minutes, including the labour party called an election called an election called an election come off. >> it was a baby that called no, no, no. >> but i mean, you know, it would have had nothing to do. the election had nothing to do with the rwanda flights. you know, i absolutely am convinced that rwanda flights would have gone off over the summer if the conservatives comfort. yeah. i mean, it may be so convince. >> why did rishi sunak not wait if you're all so convinced and you're all believe it's going to work? and by the way, i'm in your camp, i disagree with you. i actually think it is a deterrent. it should have been allowed to get off the ground. but if you believed in your policy and you believed it was going to happen, why didn't you have the chops then to make it happen and then call the debate the election afterwards? >> because sunak had had enough?

>> because sunak had had enough? >> no, i mean, look, i don't know why, you know, the prime minister decided there was a lot of steam to call an election. the prime minister decided nothing to do with rwanda. absolutely believed rwanda. i think that even though the labour party, the lawyers and the house of lords were doing everything possible to stop it, i'm absolutely convinced. don't forget the legislation had been passed, the strengthened legislation in the house of lords. rishi had said that absolutely whatever the foreign courts say, we will still get the rwanda flights off the current home secretary described the rwanda plan as b s h it crazy, and he was absolutely he denied that. >> he's denied that with no credibility. he's denied it. you know what, michel? i, i do believe we need some migration. we had that under the last labour government , but with much labour government, but with much smaller numbers. what has happened under this government is the numbers have got out of control. and you played a clip from nigel farage. nigel is a populist. he presents simplistic solutions to complicated problems. you know, he wants to put a 20% tax on businesses who employ foreign workers . they employ foreign workers. they need. until we upskill british

people . people. >> that's a great idea. >> that's a great idea. >> yeah, but until you upskill british workers and pay the wages to enable them to take those jobs, it's not going to work. and if nigel had his way, our social care system would collapse because it's held up by migrant workers. >> i mean, don't make me laugh. the social circuit system would collapse. the social care system is an absolutely diabolical mess because neither of your parties have actually fronted up, grabbed a hold of it and sorted it out. so for decades, we've had an ineffective social care system. so don't come at me and tell me a system that's already broken. >> do you know what i. i agree with part of that. i think both parties have failed on social care. but the reality go into any social care home and there are significant numbers of migrant workers. and if you stop that tomorrow, the system would collapse. >> yeah . and you know what as >> yeah. and you know what as well, everyone will remember. or perhaps you'll remember tens of thousands of social care workers that was made to leave the sector because they didn't want to be injected with something against their will. so we also

and that was thanks to both of these parties that we ended up in that situation as well. look, christopher herb, our political edhon christopher herb, our political editor. he joins me now. christopher, good evening to you. what have you got for us? >> adrian. michel. well, it's been a quite a day on the election trail today. bizarrely, all three main party leaders have spent time making mugs or painting mugs or doing some form of pottery, they've been in the midlands, of course, after suddenly sir keir starmer and rishi sunak after last night's debate in nottingham for the bbc. i've been there two overnight in the spin room for you yesterday michelle of course. and today i interviewed, rishi sunak , the prime minister rishi sunak, the prime minister for gb news. and that interview airs in little in less than 25 minutes time on this channel. so all viewers should stay tuned to gb news to hear what the pm had to say to our viewers. of the bits we've released so far, i thought most fascinating was he said, rishi sunak said that

there's maybe 150,000 votes that could make a big difference to the result of the campaign. clearly, he's made change. in the strategy rather than warning of an enormous labour landslide. the new idea from tory cchq is to target individuals in swing states. they can turn turn the ship around, because currently we're looking at an enormous landslide for the labour party. so i think it could work here. maybe they're hoping it will work anyway. >> staff a promise even i i'm going to stay tuned for that one. christopher hope, thank you very much for that, where are you at with all of this political debate in the run up to the election? are you still switched on? are you still undecided? do these kind of conversations and debates help shape your thinking, or have you already made up your mind? get in touch and tell me after the break. junior doctors again .do . do you still support this or not?

hello, everybody. i'm michelle dewberry with you until 7:00 tonight. alongside me, my panel remains . tonight. alongside me, my panel remains. i've got the former tory minister, robert halfon, and the former labour minister, bill rammell. let's talk. junior doctors, because, you know, in england they are going to strike again. i mean, this started again. i mean, this started again this morning. it's five days. you know the drill by now, don't you. they essentially they want a 35. what they're calling pay want a 35. what they're calling pay restoration. they want to take their pay back essentially to 2008. this is their 11th strike. ladies and gents, i mean, i despair, really, we're in the middle of a heat wave, in the middle of a general election. guys at home. do you still support this? >> well, we're talking about waiting lists earlier and in the middle of an election, the junior doctors go on strike, you know, which is going to cause masses of upset for millions of people who want , who desperately need. >> but they all say they're going on strike because you guys aren't sorted it out. >> well, we you know, we're spending £180 billion on the

nhs. you know, i'm proud of the record that's, you know, up a third in real terms since 2010. we've got , it's like 48,000 more we've got, it's like 48,000 more doctors, you know, something like 78,000 more nurses in the nhs. a course of a problems. but you can't just give one group of people a 35% pay rise. and the problem with the labour party is that they say it's a bit like the chap we were talking about earlier, robert, he, they say it's a terrible show and, but they don't actually say, well, how much are they going to give them? and it'll be very interesting to see what happens. but you can't just of course you've got to negotiate them. and we did negotiate with the nurses and we've solved some of that dispute. but you can't say, well, people can have a 35% pay lie—ins who in the country is getting a 35% pay rise? nobody. so what would you lot do then? >> well, i regret that the junior doctors are striking, especially during a general election campaign where neither the government or the opposition can negotiate with them. i don't think they needed to do this, we need we can't afford 35. that's

completely off the richter scale. robert says, you know, what would we do? would we be profligate? you know, you've actually settled with other groups of health workers at ten, 15, and that's creating the environment within which we're working. but what we do need to do is to get round the table with them. and wes streeting had said from day one of a labour government, he'll be sitting down with them and resolving this strike action, but that won't be 35. but i'll tell you this. >> what will it be then? what do you think is the fair amount of money? >> that's not the way negotiations work, you know it, and i and i know it. you must know what you think is a reasonable amount of money. well, the government's already accepted 10 to 15% for other health workers. i think it's in that ballpark. but i'll tell you this. 13 years of a labour government, we never had any strikes in the national health service because we funded it properly. we worked with the staff and we improved the system, and that's what we need to get back to. >> is that fair? >> is that fair? >> well, i gave you the figures, you know, it was was there any

strikes when labour was in office? we're spending you know, nhs spending is up a third in real terms, £180 billion, a huge amount of money. we've got many thousands more doctors and nurses, but we've got problems. legacy from covid because of all the people who are sadly denied appointments because of the covid pandemic, millions of people. and that's why we have millions of people on the waiting list. they are getting making some progress with that. although there is a long way to go and there's a lot of work to try and improve that, a lot of money that's being invested. but you can't just, you know , if you you can't just, you know, if you say you're going to give doctors 35, where does that money come from? it comes from the taxpayer, or you spend less elsewhere on the nhs because you've got to give that 35% to the to the junior doctors . the to the junior doctors. >> can you help me understand something? maybe i'm just overlooking something really basic. so these guys want pay restoration to 2008, right. but by my calculations, some of these people wouldn't have even have been even on on starting as junior doctors in 2008. so they've become subsequently on that pathway, knowing the t's and c's as they were at the

time. so how can you take a job knowing the t's and c's at the time and then suddenly go, hang on, despite the fact i've only just joined, i want to look backwards and i want my pay to go back to what it was before i was even there. despite the fact that i accepted it subsequently. what am i missing? >> because that's what trade unions do, and it's an argument. i don't think it's a, you know, a persuasive argument. 35% is not deliverable. and i will say this, i think the british medical association have a track record of, let's just say , not record of, let's just say, not negotiating reasonably on behalf of its members . nevertheless, we of its members. nevertheless, we need to get round the table and resolve these strikes because they're damaging and they're putting the service back. but one other thing to robert, to you, robert, you said, you know, it's all about the pandemic. waiting lists were through the roof before the pandemic. it's because of the way the tory government has underfunded the health service relatively over 14 years, £180 billion. >> is not underfunding going a

third up a third in real terms is not underfunding. >> and you know that the pace of technology and the ageing population needs more doctors and nurses is not underfunding. >> and how much more money would the labour party? are you saying how much more money would the labour party spend on the nhs over a parliament? >> we are determined to invest enough and reform enough to how much to get waiting lists back to 18 weeks. >> we've said we'd carry on increasing nhs spending in real terms in the way that we that we have done. we just announced a few billion pounds for nhs technology in the recent budget, so billions of pounds have been going into the nhs, but they're trying to there's a lot of reform that needs to come through the system rather than just saying, oh yes, it's a problem because we haven't got more money. >> you need both, you need reform and you need investment. and that's exactly what we had under the last labour government. we've had it here 180 billion. but but you haven't delivered 18 weeks maximum waiting time. when we left office. 18 months under your watch. >> but hang on, you're not as i say, you can deliberately not. >> including the reasons for

this are because of the covid pandemic, the heart of the, or one of the, key strands of the labour party's plans for the nhs. >> it's all about leveraging technology. and you say about your great performance in the last time he was in office, one of the biggest public sector i.t. failures. that's cost us taxpayers . depending on which taxpayers. depending on which estimates you look at, some would say it's ten plus billion pounds was under a labour government when it came to them trying to modernise the nhs using technology. gordon brown's pfideal >> do you know what governments of all political persuasions have not been great with it and we need to get better on that and we need to get smarter on that. and they've been failures under the conservatives and they were failures under the last. >> i'm telling you, both of you gents, nice people. but there'll be so many people watching this wanting to headbutt my desk because they will say that we just need change. we just need something that is change. i'm using your strap lines now.

could be a campaign of you, couldn't i? using your words. >> but you know what, michelle? don't. don't judge politicians by what they say. judge them by what they do and the figures and the figures. >> i'm telling you, that's why i'm telling the pair of you that you're both abysmal. your parties, when it comes to immigration. i'm telling the pair of you that what you've done to things like the nhs is appalling. i'm telling you that when you talk about it and improving it, i'm judging you on your track record, which is you created the worst public sector i.t failure that we've had in this country, in the nhs. >> with respect, you're not judging us on our record because when we left office, maximum waits were 18 weeks. you people could get gp technology. >> no no no i'm talking about health. >> the labour party and the service and we had the highest satisfaction levels in history, finance , initiative, the pfi and finance, initiative, the pfi and gordon brown's. >> and we got 100 new hospitals promised but saddled them with because you said they were never able to pay your party that introduced pfi whilst it was your party. >> gordon brown rolled it out. >> gordon brown rolled it out. >> robert gordon brown, you know, that's completely untrue. it was john major who introduced the pfi, who extended pfi across the pfi, who extended pfi across

the hospitals . the hospitals. >> gordon brown well, this is what i'm saying. it's the pair of you at fault is the labour party and the tories. goodness gracious me, we're going to fight it out. >> well, i'm proud of the brick. i'm proud of thousand the more nurses and doctors. >> we will see you in two minutes. i have got to say. in fact, you know what? i'll tell you in a second about joe biden, we are counting down to joe biden and donald trump's face in person, in person showdown of the 2024 election campaign. do not miss the us presidential debate live here on gb news at 2 am. friday. see you in two.

hi there. i'm michelle jul brit school seven. former tory minister robert halfon and the former labour minister bill rammell alongside me in the break. we were actually just talking about electioneering. bill was saying if he wasn't here tonight , he'd be knocking here tonight, he'd be knocking on doors. that's why he's got such a good tan. that's what he's been doing. these last few days.i he's been doing. these last few days. i was saying, i don't like

it when people knock on my door. i find it an invasion. then we're just also talking about the disadvantage that smaller parties, start up parties are at, because there's just no data. you guys, the bigger parties, the established parties, the established parties, you have reams and reams of data. you know who's who, what's what's where, how to get people turning out where. start up parties, they're literally starting from scratch . literally starting from scratch. >> it is true in that sense. it's not a level playing field, but i was just sharing with you both robert's party and my party in harlow have got 30 years worth of data on the electorate, and you target because six months of the year we have local elections every year. >> so we're knocking on doors, getting, you know, finding out what voters think. so we have all that information and then you the job is to get them out. well yeah. will you be turning out to vote? >> obviously it's a week today. will you be turning out i can't wait, actually i can't wait for it all to be done and dusted, i think all of us feel like that. i know some of you, i think as well, will feel exactly the same about that. again, this pfi conversation has come up a lot

with you guys at home tonight about. we're just talking about that the pfi people are really not happy about that situation. and that is something now that still causes problems for the nhs. d0 still causes problems for the nhs. do you think that this was, on reflection, wrong moves? >> well , let's set the history >> well, let's set the history right straight , robert. it >> well, let's set the history right straight, robert. it was introduced under john major's introduced underjohn major's government. we carried it on and extended it and bluntly we got better the longer it went on in the design of the contract, it was a completely it was a tiny it was a very tiny initiative under john it was a very tiny initiative underjohn major it was a very tiny initiative under john major and it was a very tiny initiative underjohn major and ken clarke . underjohn major and ken clarke. >> it was massively rolled out unden >> it was massively rolled out under, gordon brown , the pfi. it under, gordon brown, the pfi. it saddled with hospitals with huge debts that they're still paying off. and there were loads. don't believe me? look up google. there's loads and loads of articles about this that have written about the pfi scandals that went on under , under labour that went on under, under labour and the hospitals are still paying and the hospitals are still paying off off to this day. it was a disastrous. >> well, i've got to tell you, i've delivered 100 new hospitals. >> how many how many have you delivered under this government saddled, saddled hospitals with

debt that they couldn't then run properly because they're busy paying properly because they're busy paying the debts? >> they couldn't. you know, everything is about paying the debt to the pfi rather than running the hospital. i mean, that's like saying, well, you build a house, you build a lot of houses, but people can't live in them because they can't pay the mortgage. >> but, you know, and i know the reason for pfi was to get round the public finance rules so that pfi schemes were outside of the traditional public sector capital schemes . and yes, there capital schemes. and yes, there needed to be reform and we did get better at the pfi contracts, but it is a reality that we built 100 new hospitals that are serving people in this country. there's been 3 or 4 under this government, just try just type in pfi scandals under, you know, and all the think tanks, the kings, how many new hospitals under this government. >> that's what these two are going to do in a minute. these two are going to carry on talking about pfi. you can google it to your heart's content. i can tell you now, many people are divided on pretty much every single one of these topics. tonight i stand by what i said. i think too many

people are very bored of what many would call the uniparty a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news . sponsors of weather on gb news. >> hi there, it's time for the latest update from the met office for gb news. cool atlantic winds return across the uk this weekend. that means blustery showers, especially for northern parts, but some drier and brighter interludes too , and brighter interludes too, especially across southern parts. low pressure and unseasonably deep low is now crossing northern scotland. around the south of that low, we've got these strong winds bringing unpleasant conditions really across scotland, northern ireland, northern england, spells of rain or showers continuing through the night, the strongest winds pushing through northern and northeast scotland. meanwhile, further south, it's mostly dry , apart south, it's mostly dry, apart from 1 or 2 showers for wales in the south—west. patchy cloud, but a cooler night for many of us. so 11 to 13 celsius by dawn. now we start the day with those winds and the outbreaks of rain

continuing across northwest scotland. northwest highlands seeing prolonged and at times heavy rain and the rain then sweeping into orkney and shetland. later some shelter from the rain across eastern and southern scotland, but a few showers here brightening up across northern ireland. compared with the last 24 hours. a few sunny spells but also 1 or 2 showers. a few showers there for wales, northern england, perhaps the southwest, but the further south—east you are, the dner further south—east you are, the drier will be, the brighter it will be. there'll be quite a lot of cloud to be honest. across the uk during the day, but some brightness will develop, especially towards the southwest by the afternoon. further north any rain tends to break up into showers, but there will be some heavy downpours for the highlands. grampians, the northwest of scotland and that strong wind continues, making it feel on the cool side in the south, where we've got some sunshine and lighter winds 23 celsius. so not too unpleasant. we start saturday with a lot of fine weather. best of the sunshine. the southeast , as well sunshine. the southeast, as well as parts of southern scotland,

northern ireland. this finger of cloud pushes into northern and western england, as well as wales to bring some light rain by the afternoon. but for many, this weekend is looking mostly settled , if a lot cooler settled, if a lot cooler compared with the weather of recent days. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers, sponsors of weather on gb news

>> good evening. it's 7 pm. on thursday. the 27th of june. and this is a gb news election special with me. camilla tominey. welcome to vote 2020 for the leaders . for the leaders. so good evening and welcome to this special edition of vote 2020 for the leaders . tonight we 2020 for the leaders. tonight we bnng 2020 for the leaders. tonight we bring you a sit down interview

with the prime minister rishi sunak. it's exactly one week until the election. can rishi keep hold of the keys to number 10? last week we interviewed sir keir, sir keir starmer and yesterday sir ed davey , as part yesterday sir ed davey, as part of our vote 2020 for the leaders series. today we bring you the prime minister. >> well, having an election based on trust and what you'll do in the future, you haven't cut migration. >> well, i've been prime minister for 18 months, chris. >> and let's have a party. forgive me. your party? >> he was slightly tetchy when pushed on the tories record on immigration. >> you lose your seat next week? >> you lose your seat next week? >> no, of course i'm. i'm fighting very hard everywhere. >> and as you saw, there is not quite sure he can retain his seat. >> what did you think about that remark about you personally? yeah. look, he should answer what he means by that . what he means by that. >> there he was asking nigel farage to explain himself. well, with me to discuss this, we have voices from each of the three major political parties. we've got a cracking show lined up tonight. but first, here's the .