>> good morning, and welcome to the camilla tominey show . only the camilla tominey show. only five more days to go until we know who will be forming the next government. i'll be asking nigel farage, the leader of reform uk, why he's boycotting the bbc. and about the channel four racism expose. i'll also be speaking to the woman tipped to

replace rishi sunak. business secretary kemi badenoch, who joined me on thursday for an exclusive interview. and i'll be joined by a political panel to dissect what she had to say. pat mcfadden, the mastermind behind labour's election campaign, will be here to clarify the party's tax plans and who labour regards as working people, and demographer paul morland is worried about our plummeting birth rates. he'll be to here explain why we should all be worried about underpopulation. we have got an absolutely huge 90 minutes of punchy politics lined up for you this morning, so do not even think of going anywhere. well, to go through the papers this morning, i'm delighted to be joined now by giles kenningham, former number 10 head of press. lovely to see you this morning, giles. let's get stuck into the sunday times. i'm saying sign of the times. basically, they've endorsed

laboun basically, they've endorsed labour. yeah they have. >> it's not been effusive. heavily caveated . heavily caveated. >> yes, it's a long leader and it's kind of like well, the tories haven't been very good and we're worried about labour, but on a balance of probabilities. >> yeah. they're sort of saying there's still lots of unanswered questions. labour have got to be better in government than they've been in opposition. they talk about a conspiracy of silence, raise the spectre of taxes. so yes, i think it's uk hedging their bets, not as important as it once would have been, say sort of 510 years ago when papers were more influential. but no doubt just also sustains the momentum that is behind labour. >> as you say, the sunday times and the times are in the same stable as rupert murdoch's sun and sun on sunday. i noted from the sun on sunday they didn't endorse anyone. >> no, i suspect the sun won't come out. if they had of if they wanted to have maximum impact, they should have come out earlier in the campaign. i suspect they'll sit on the fence on this one. >> this is mirroring the robert blackstock point. he was the guy who appeared in the question time debate last week, and basically asked sunak and starmer, is this the best great britain can do.7 that starmer, is this the best great britain can do? that seems to be the kind of feeling among

newspapers. they're in a difficult position. they don't really. the right wing press can't be too effusive about the tories because they know their readers are very, very unhappy with them. but they don't want to be effusive about a labour government either. yeah, because it's effectively what you've seen with starmer's do nothing and basically hope that you can sail under the radar and win. >> and so far that strategy has worked for him. >> let's talk about rishi sunak coming out fighting in the sunday telegraph and some of the other writers, because i see that the mail on sunday have also gone with this kind of like labour will wreck the economy in 100 days. he's saying labour will bankrupt every generation. red alert, red alert. i mean, is it too little, too late? >> giles? yeah. i mean, there's a good sort of school of thought. you should have done this earlier in the campaign. clearly, this is about trying to mobilise the base late in the day and say to wavering reform voters, if you vote reform, it's a back door to a labour government, lots of red meat. in what sunak has talked about, you know, the spectre of taxes, the raid on private schools. yes. the question, is it enough to stop some of the bleeding that's going on? >> i mean, you've been around the block some time and you've

been involved in previous campaigns. how bad do you think the tories campaign has been? >> yeah, it's not been good. and ihave >> yeah, it's not been good. and i have to say like it's a massive political miscalculation to have gone so early. if you think if you've got in november, you probably would have had a couple of rates cuts, would farage even have run, he might have been in america helping trump out. so yes, you know, by any, any stretch of the imagination, hard to explain. >> let's talk about reform nigel farage coming into the studio, in about ten minutes time, we've got more candidates suspended. we've got farage talking about a bbc stitch up and a channel 4 stitch up. we've got some polling suggesting that the sort of topping out in the 1,718% mark, although other polls have put a bit more of a generous spin on how reform are doing. what's your analysis of farage in this campaign and his claim that it's he who will unite the right , it's that it's he who will unite the right, it's he that it's he who will unite the right , it's he who will that it's he who will unite the right, it's he who will lead that it's he who will unite the right , it's he who will lead the right, it's he who will lead the opposition when the time comes. >> yeah, he is an amazing disrupter and he has to somewhat electrify the campaign and been a huge problem for the conservatives. i have to say, there's some of the continual complaining from farage is like, look mate, get with the programme you're in the big league now. of course you should

be held accountable like everyone else. it's very easy to lob bricks from the sidelines, but ultimately the buck stops with him, so he should be accountable for the candidates he has and he should be able to answer for them. look, he's not answer for them. look, he's not a political novice, is he? he's been around for like 20, 25 years. why? >> but he's making these points about the bbc and channel 4. and i'll raise this with him directly. i mean, it's quite trumpian in a way, isn't it, to kind of like suggest. but there must be there is something in this idea that the so—called establishment doesn't like him being disrupter in chief. it's completely inconvenient for them to have farage popping up on all sorts of different platforms , sorts of different platforms, actually doing very well, actually doing very well, actually being a more effective communicator than starmer and sunak have been. >> also, you know , it fits his >> also, you know, it fits his narrative, but i think he can do it because the media is not as powerful as it once was. i think, you know, when i worked for cameron, we would be very, very wary about ever attacking the media because you needed them. but he doesn't need them because he can go straight to market, whether that's on x instagram. you know, there's different platforms. and he is a great narrator.

>> yeah. it's interesting to see reform social media campaign being so effective compared to labour and the tories when it comes to how the tories have fought this campaign . a few fought this campaign. a few weeks ago i had alexander downer in who's the former high commissioner to australia, and he made the point that he felt that the tories had wasted a lot of time on blue, on blue, and they should have been doing far more blue on red. you know, don't talk about reform talk about labour and how much labour are going to tax you, which we see today in the sunday telegraph. >> and also you've seen that starmer is not good under pressure. he's not performed well in any debates. he's not light on his feet. he hasn't got many answers. he's not particularly agile. and when he is put under pressure he does dissemble. i mean, look how labour have dissembled on their policy on private schools. that's one of their few policies, but they can't even get the line right. >> yeah. do you also agree that it's going to be difficult for starmer if he gets in with a supermajority on a really low vote share? so just explain that, because i think tony blair's vote share was 43, boris johnson's was 44. we've got a savanta poll in the mail on sunday. i think it is 38, 37,

38. we'll just explain why that's difficult for him along with a bad approval rating. >> well, i think there's two things. i think it's difficult because as you have the mandate, but actually i was going to make another point. if he has a supermajority, it's actually superm ajority, it's actually going supermajority, it's actually going to be very hard for him to manage his own party, because there are so many people in there are so many people in there who won't get a job. he's not a particularly strong leader, and there's nothing which really binds the labour party together, as it did under blair. actually, i would argue an 80 seat majority, which boris had, is a lot easier to manage, the observer has done a very handy election night guide, and it sort of said the ten things you need to watch on the night. i'm going to be hosting with stephen dixon. so we shall have matchsticks in our eyes as we're bef exit poll comes out all the way through to 6 am, you'll presumably be staying up to watch it. giles looking out, suppose. >> firstly, do the big beasts and the tory party survive like the grant shapps? the penny mordaunts, james hunt, jeremy hunt, james cleverly, to a point. turnout. do you get a very low turnout? because it seems to have been a lot of disaffection. the polls are saying there's a lot of

undecided people during this election, and then reform do the votes actually translate into seats? >> are you going to be looking at rishi sunak seat closely? because i think the tories are saying it's the tories are a bit fearful that, you know, i think there was at one point fearful that it might go i mean, that would be unprecedented. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> what are tories telling you? sort of in the background about how they're feeling on the doorstep, what the reaction is. i've heard a few say, look, it's actually more encouraging on the doorstep than the polls suggest. >> they're saying the supermajority line is starting to cut through. i think conversely, what i have also picked up, worryingly, is the kind of vote reform get labour message isn't resonating the way it did in 2015, because people think it's consequence free people thought miliband and corbyn were a threat. people find starmer inoffensive, so i think that is the real question. like, do they manage to shift that vote? >> also, people don't like being told you know, i think people find it a bit patronising. they do, don't they? it's like, well, i'm voting reform because i support reform, you know, don't tell me i know how the voting system works. >> yeah, exactly, finally, let's just talk about joe biden. i

appreciate it's all about domestic politics. this weekend, however, the ramifications of this extraordinary tv debate in america on thursday night continue. we've got sir elton john now coming out in favour of the president and saying, obviously, support the democrats. first of all, what did you make of the debate? >> look, it was an absolute car crash by any stretch of the imagination. and now, you know, we're in a situation now where obama needs to step in, put his hand on his shoulder and goes, joe, do you think it's for obama to say something and not say, jill biden because she's too closely aligned to this? democrat grandees need to stand step in, and there are candidates ready to go. you've got gavin newsom. i think the governor of california, you know, who is someone out of central casting almost, but looks the part. yeah. if you're going to do it, do it now. if you're trump, you definitely want biden to stay in. >> yeah i mean, do you think actually that it's i thought in the debate he he was quite gentle with biden, considering he didn't need to do anything. did he just let him sort of spontaneously combust? but you think trump would be much more

worried if he was facing newsom? >> absolutely. yeah, because it's just a totally different dynamic. yeah. >> all right. cool. giles, thank you very much indeed for your expertise this morning. i can see nigel farage has just entered the building, so he'll be coming up next. the reform leader, nigel farage, will be speaking to me in just a don't go

welcome back to gb news you're watching the camilla tominey show. i'm delighted to be joined now by the leader of reform uk, nigel farage. good morning. lovely to see you. right. let's get stuck into why you're boycotting the bbc. >> oh, right from the start of this campaign, the bbc have behaved like a political actor. i remember the first interview i did on the today programme. i came off air and thought, there's no point. there's literally no point and no opportunity to talk about policy, about ideas, but what happened on friday with that

question time audience was truly astonishing. first question gets asked by a chap who was himself produced eight programmes for the bbc, including the very woke now, doctor who. right. so he gets to ask a question. we then third question is asked by a chap who's a well known street palestinian campaigning activist , i think question number 7 or 8 was asked by a girl who's very active left wing campaigner, which is perhaps fine. what i'm making is a question time audience is supposed to be representative of the country as we go into the final week of a general election. it was miles from that. and i did ask the bbc for an apology. >> that does that necessarily disadvantage you? because you know what you believe you're a robust communicator. you get taken on by people that don't agree with you. then it's a sure, you can position yourself very strongly. >> look, i'm for all a i mean, i'm all for a free and fair debate. goodness gracious me. but i've now done a series of big bbc programmes over the last few weeks, and every single

audience has been tilted towards either the green or the labour party in the most astonishing way. >> they refute that, and i read their statement at the end. but fair enough. let's talk about this channel 4 documentary then. so you're saying that this guy, mr parker, andrew parker, who turned up as an activist on the day he's an actor, but at the same time, what i can't pin down is, are you suggesting that this is, are you suggesting that this is channel 4? like placing him in there as a stooge? because they're denying that channel 4 worcester has far away from it as possible. >> of course, channel 4 used production companies. yeah, that gives channel 4 deniability. look, let's just get the facts. this chap bowls up, all right? big, larger than life. a really big, strong, almost slightly comedic. yeah. comic accent and that's how he is. he hangs around the office. he hangs around the office. he hangs around with two people who i didn't understand at the time, were working for channel 4. they were working for channel 4. they were together. he then says, i've got a big car canvassing team come with me. a couple of

our activists get in the back with channel 4 in the front, and from the minute he got in the car, apparently he was saying all sorts of things about people of different colours and sexualities and trying to gee up the, the, the reform activists who didn't play. then they get to the canvassing spot and he comes out with this stream of invective against rishi sunak. he says that all the mosques should be turned into wetherspoons. and i looked at this and thought it doesn't quite ring true when this was said, like on the campaign trail, did anyone from your team flag this and say, look, we've got someone dodgy. when they came back, one of the one of the ladies that was with him when she came back said, look, i'm really alarmed at some of the behaviour that i've just seen. anyway, what did you transpire? >> because presumably i didn't find out till the next morning. >> right. okay. because i wasn't there. >> because somebody in the team should have then said to that activist, to andrew parker, sorry, we don't want your type. he'd gone. he'd gone. right. >> the next morning i found out he was he was an actor, right? go to his website. he speaks. he's very posh. yes. not quite.

jacob rees—mogg, but he's very, very posh. and yet he has this alter ego where he does what he calls rough speaking. yeah, he even posts on tiktok. he's a modern day alf garnett. yes. type. i mean, the stuff on tiktok is the language is horrendous. he. why? if you were a genuine reform canvasser, why would you turn up in the office using your alter ego voice and not your real voice doesn't necessarily prove that he's been sort of placed or engineered into that by channel 4. you see. well, he's worked for channel 4 in the past. yeah, he's done acting. you don't have concrete proof that channel 4 has said to this guy, right, you go in, you this go guy, r' |ght y , ou 9° i m , you this guy, right, you go in, you go and start casting aspersions around and using seemed to know and see if nigel agrees with it. >> he seemed to know the channel four infiltrators very well, and by sheer coincidence, on a day when there were 100 canvassers, they were all together in the same car. >> the morning after this all came out, he was rung by us and the telegraph. he denied that he was an actor. he lied then, but this is i've seen lots of this in the past. this is the biggest smear stitch up i have ever

seen. we will get to the bottom of it. all right. >> fair enough. on the subject of some of your dodgy candidates, let's just grasp the nettle here because the question will be, why do so many racists and people with inappropriate views about homosexuality, even about, you know , jewish people? about, you know, jewish people? why do they all get attracted to reform ? >> reform? >> i think ironically, it's because i destroyed the bnp. i put them out of business. so what else can these people go? >> but you don't want what i'm for you. >> i as you know, when i led ukip and hey, i mean, when the brexit party, when 29 of us turned up in strasbourg, five years ago, we were the most diverse group ever seen in the european parliament. and you know how you know where i am on this? i've been leader of this for a month . okay? i inherited a for a month. okay? i inherited a start up party that had almost no money and almost no staff and said, volunteer, we want, you know, we want candidates. so we have finished up with some people who were rotten. i tried to fix it by getting a well—known, prominent for x number 10 man who had a vetting company . we gave him 144 grand. company. we gave him 144 grand. he didn't do the job. so we have

finished up with some people who are truly dreadful. i apologise for that, but it's not reflective of me and it's not reflective of me and it's not reflective of me and it's not reflective of the party and it certainly isn't reflective of where we're going after next thursday . thursday. >> well, let's talk about that because you're talking about in terms of like the next term and 2029. yeah, just clarify. are you saying you want to run to be pm in 2029 unless somebody younger and better and better looking comes along. all right. so you appreciate then the need to do two things. first of all, you've got to absolutely professionalise reform. absolutely. we were saying earlier , if reform's actual earlier, if reform's actual organisation was as good as your social media, you'd be doing well. but it strikes me, you know, there isn't the governance there. there isn't the vetting procedures, it's all pretty chaotic. >> it's a start up. it's a start up. it is a little start up. >> how will you improve things over the course of the next 4 to 5 years? >> then i've done it before. i've done it before. we actually by 2015 had built ukip into a

proper professional structure with 400 branches around the country. and this is remarkable. we will go through 60,000 paid up members today. that's double in the space of a month . all pay in the space of a month. all pay their 25 quids. we have a mailing list of over 200,000. i am going to build a mass movement in british politics for real change. because you know something? labour don't represent that. >> all right, so mass movement, if you really do want to be pm in 2029, then you and i both know that your vote share needs to start with a three, not a one or a two. and so here's the question for you. and reform do you actually have to moderate a bit more? because i appreciate you've got people watching and listening to this who are massively in your fan club. they love you. you've got that caucus of support. i think scarlett mccgwire said to me last week, you're averaging, if you take all of the polls around 18, you've got to get that much higher and you're not going to do that with inflammatory remarks about vladimir putin that have put off. i've made none. moderates? >> no, no, i've made no inflammatory remarks. but you

know that there are some i mean, they've written into the telegraph. >> i know them in my own circle because it's the hoax. >> it's the hoax . >> it's the hoax. >> it's the hoax. >> considering voting for reform. but this has put me off. >> it's the hoax. look, unlike the conservative and labour party, i was opposed to the iraq war. i was opposed to the libyan war, and i predicted ten years ago what putin would do in ukraine. none of them saw this coming. the fact that i predicted it doesn't mean i support it, but that's the sort of nonsense that you get in politics. >> you do appreciate that some of this does an even perhaps some of the problems with the activists. it makes more moderate righties think, oh, i don't know, i can't touch reform, i don't. well, finding farage a bit unsavoury. you do understand that mentality? >> i do, and i've been in i've beenin >> i do, and i've been in i've been in this game for three decades, so i understand that. but i tell you what, today we launch a star. i think perhaps if somebody is going to replace me, maybe, maybe you'll see him today. we've got 5000 people coming to birmingham at midday today and, and, and zia yusuf, who is a self—made, highly successful businessman. yes. i've interviewed patriotic. yeah. he's going to be the big star of today. >> and i think some of your

other stars have been a bit conspicuous by their absence. where's lee anderson been on the campaign trail with his wife has been very seriously ill. i didn't know. in the last couple of days people have been asking me where is he? >> i wanted lee to come today, but his wife has been very ill. >> fair enough. thank you for clarifying that point, when i said about that whole moderating your views, then. so you think that you can grow this from a fairly sort of right wing platform? i'm not going to call it far right and hard right. no. do you need to moderate a little bit to get more people in to get to 30? >> no, because i think what we're talking about, the fact that britain is broken, that nothing works, that the population explosion has devalued the lives and quality of life of pretty much everybody. i think these i think people are joining up the dots out there now and they're beginning to understand it. >> so when you say about this campaign, i get the whole pudding yourself as the opposition, but proportional representation, are you going to make that a campaign like brexit next sunday? >> you'll be sitting here and there'll be a massive national debate about the fact that the labour party got 37% and 450

seats and that reform got, i don't know, 6 million votes and 15 seats. and we'll see that first past the post, absolute first past the post, absolute first past the post, absolute first past the post now doesn't work for anybody. >> you'll need cross party collaboration for that, won't you? you probably have to work with the lib dems, and i've already asked ed davey and daisy cooper whether they'll work with you. and they say no, but but it doesn't matter. but brexit worked because it worked. it transcended ideological boundaries, didn't it? >> no, no. we were on our own campaign. >> oh hang on, you had lefties. we were on. we were on our own for 25 years campaigning to leave the european union with no representation in parliament. >> you did have old labour, but that's not quite right. >> you weren't on your own because you were able to kind of unite old labour working class labour voters with blue wall tories and i suppose then red wall tories. >> well, i can assure you the kind of political change we want will unite all of those people too. okay, this thought that you only change things from within parliaments. nonsense brexit happened because of a grassroots upwelling in this country. >> are you worried about votes

for 16 or 17 year olds, or does your tiktok following suggest your tiktok following suggest you might benefit from that? >> oddly, my support amongst youngsters has just gone through the roof in these last few weeks . no, i don't think you should be able to vote in an election that you can't be a candidate in, and i don't think 16 year olds should be in parliament, even if the 16 and 17 year olds might be persuaded by reform, because we've seen what right wing parties have done in the european parliament. >> right. >> right. >> but there is something called principle as well. okay. you know. all right. >> george galloway has suggested that you two should have, as the great disruptors of british politics, that you should have a one on one debate between now and thursday. leader of the workers party obviously got quite a controversial past. what do you think of that? would you go head to head with galloway? >> he's a fascinating figure, i, i do find his views on israel. pretty offensive. i don't like the kind of sectarian politics that we saw that got him elected. yeah. come on, parliament. but you know what? there wouldn't be much of a debate because he's more opposed

to cross—channel migrants than me. no, he's a bigger supporter of trump than i am. i'm not sure where the debate would be. well, would you have won, not in the next three days. i've got too much to do. okay. >> but he has challenged you to one. >> no, but the principle of having debates. i'm for. all because what we've seen is keir starmer not wanting to say anything, and rishi sunak telling the country he supports low taxes and low immigration, having done the opposite, talking about debates trump versus biden on thursday night. >> okay, now obviously there are now calls for biden to step down. and it's hoped that somebody will tap him on the shoulder. obama, his wife jill, do you think trump can still win if they replace biden with somebody like newsom? >> yes. i mean, the jill biden role is extraordinary. i mean, what is happening to joe biden is almost elder abuse. it was hard to watch even trump didn't attack him because it was just so awful. yes, and predictable. >> but it would be better for trump if he stays in place right, well, i think the trump team have always wanted him to stay in place. gavin newsom is,

of course, much younger, quite photogenic, but comes with a hell of a millstone around his neck. and that's the state that california is in. he's been the governor worst education system in the whole of america. yeah, so i still think trump wins. all right. >> nigel farage, thank you very much indeed forjoining me this much indeed for joining me this morning. i need to, just give you the bbc and channel 4 statement against what nigel farage is saying. they've pushed back against his claims. the bbc and a spokesman said we refute these claims. question time audience was made up of a broadly similar levels of representation from reform uk and the green party, with other parties represented too. there were also a number of people with a range of political views who are still making up their mind. the spokesman for channel 4 news said we strongly stand by our rigorous and duly impartial journalism, which speaks for itself. we met mr parker for the first time at reform party headquarters, where he was reform party canvasser. we did not pay the reform uk canvasser or anyone else in the report. mr parker was not known to channel 4 news and was filmed covertly via the undercover operation. i need to go now, but stay tuned because i've got my interview with kemi

welcome back. so much more to come. in the next hour, i'm going to be joined by the business secretary, kemi badenoch, and labour's national campaign coordinator, pat mcfadden. but first, here's the news. with ray addison . news. with ray addison. >> good afternoon. it's 10 am. our top stories from the gb newsroom. claims of alleged russian interference in the general election have been described as gravely concerning by the deputy prime minister oliver dowden was responding to reports by australia's abc that had been monitoring five facebook pages promoting british political parties. the public broadcaster says most of the administrators are based in nigeria . administrators are based in nigeria. nigeria, administrators are based in nigeria . nigeria, which has been nigeria. nigeria, which has been unked nigeria. nigeria, which has been linked to previous online russian propaganda. in a

statement carried by the sunday times, mr dowden said the revelations reveal the real risk our democracy faces in this uncertain world. the prime minister is warning that sir keir starmer could inflict irreversible damage on the uk within 100 days of entering downing street. in a sunday telegraph interview, rishi sunak warned that labour's tax plans would bankrupt people in every generation . however, labour says generation. however, labour says its first steps would be restoring economic stability and cutting nhs waiting lists . the cutting nhs waiting lists. the attacks come as the party continues to lead the tories in the polls by around 20 points ahead of thursday's election. pat mcfadden, labour's national campaign coordinator, told us labour has been clear on tax. >> there is nothing in our plans that requires. why can't you rule it out now? >> okay, how about this will you increase council tax or re band council tax? >> well there's already under the tory plans, an assumption that council tax will go up under their plans.

>> okay. so will it go up under a labour government. >> nothing in our plans that requires council tax to go up will you tax people's homes? there is nothing in our plans that requires us. >> can you rule out taxing people more to drive a car, or to put petrol and diesel into a car? can you rule that out? >> there is nothing in our plans that requires us to do that. now you could go nothing in our plans and ruling things out are two different things. >> nigel farage will address the largest mass meeting of reform party supporters later. the event at the birmingham nec is expected to welcome an audience of up to 5000 people. mr farage has described the vote on thursday as a once in a lifetime opportunity to rebuild broken britain. it comes at the end of a difficult week for the reform leader, who has dealt with multiple allegations about the behaviour of his candidates and activists. here he is speaking to camilla tominey earlier this morning. >> i've been leader of this for a month, okay, i inherited a start up party that had almost no money and almost no staff and

said volunteer. we want, you know, we want candidates. so we have finished up with some people who were rotten. i tried to fix it by getting a well—known, prominent for x number 10 man who had a vetting company. we gave him 144 grand. he didn't do the job. so we have finished up with some people who are truly dreadful. i apologise for that, but it's not reflective of me and it's not reflective of me and it's not reflective of me and it's not reflective of the party in the us. >> the white house is pushing back on reports that president biden plans to discuss the future of his campaign with his family at camp david today. it's after a report by nbc news that quoted several unnamed sources alleged that some senior party members are pushing for the president to stand aside following his performance in a televised debate against donald trump. but officials say the trip was planned before the debate and denied that there was any serious discussion about the president's standing down. right. those are the latest gb news headlines. for now, i'm ray addison more in an hour's time. back to camilla for the very

latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gb news. >> .com forward slash alerts. >> .com forward slash alerts. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lots more still to come. in just a minute you'll see my exclusive interview with business secretary kemi badenoch. i'll be joined by a punchy political panel including bill rammell and kamal callum robertson, to analyse what the business secretary has said. i'll also be joined by labour's national campaign coordinator , national campaign coordinator, pat mcfadden. will he manage to parachute sir keir starmer into number 10, despite him polling as one of the least popular leaders in british history? and paul morland will share his new book, which looks at whether we have a population calamity unfolding before our eyes. but first, earlier this week, i was joined by the business secretary, kemi badenoch, and this is what she had to say.

badenoch, thank you very much indeed for joining badenoch, thank you very much indeed forjoining me in the indeed for joining me in the studio today. shall we start by talking about david tennant and his comments at that lgbtq+ awards ceremony in the week? i mean, he said that you should shut up. he said that you should not exist. you then hit back at him on x, formerly known as twitter . clearly you were very twitter. clearly you were very angry about it. i was quite angry about it. i was quite angry on your behalf, as i'm sure were were most of the gb news audience. do you think he should apologise to you personally? >> i think he should. i think he's probably regretting making those remarks, given the uproar all across, all across the country. it's had a lot of cut through, but it also shows the scale of the problem. we have. i mean, what was even more extraordinary is that a labour mp, dawn butler, doubled down and said i agree with him. this is what's coming. i keep telling people that it's not just keir starmer that you're going to

get. when you get labour, you're going to have all these mps with very, very bad politics, really dangerous stuff. wishing another mp doesn't exist. i mean, that's dangerous. and keir starmer has refused to condemn her, but also him . wes streeting bridget him. wes streeting bridget phillipson, they've all said, oh well, she's entitled to her opinion and if you remember how they reacted when there were comments which emerged several years later, that had been made in private about diane abbott, we didn't hear. we didn't stop heanng we didn't hear. we didn't stop hearing about it for well over a week, i think nearly two weeks. so it's one rule for them. and another rule for everyone else. they don't really care about racism . they just care about racism. they just care about their own people. and in the same way that they've tried to come after me, i won't let them. they will try and go after other people if we allow them into government. i'm just going to play government. i'm just going to play devil's advocate. >> on one point, obviously, when he stood up on stage, he didn't mention your colour. you then condemned him as a straight white man. was it about race or is that just the context of these kind of comments for you personally? >> it's not about race at all.

it's about showing that they are hypocrites. and i it wasn't about him being white or, you know , i said he was rich, a rich know, i said he was rich, a rich leftie white male. it's that they play identity politics and they play identity politics and they have a ladder of who's up and who, you know, who's a protected group. and by their own rules, in the same way as we've seen them in other circumstances. they criticise other people for going after black people, black women in particular. but when it's them, the rules suddenly change. and that's what i was highlighting. doesn't have anything to do with his skin colour. i don't judge skin colour, but they do, except when they don't want it to matter. like in that instance, shall we clarify where you do stand on transgender people? just for the record, make it clear and then we can perhaps talk about how labour are currently tackling the issue. >> okay. so i think that it is important that we give transgender people space and dignity to live their lives as they wish, and the people who

suffer from gender dysphoria. we have done everything we can to look after, but what is happening is that a lot of people are saying that, oh, we're trans too, when they're not, so that they can access women's spaces. there wasn't as big a problem when those laws were brought in. it is now we're seeing it with men competing in women's sports, claiming to be trans, taking their medals. we're seeing rapists being put in women's prisons. we're seeing rapists being put in women's prisons . they weren't in women's prisons. they weren't women when they were raping. they suddenly become women when they need to get into a softer prison. and that's what we're trying to stop. so all of this is not really about trans people. it's about the people exploiting the rules , which were exploiting the rules, which were there to protect the tiny, tiny number of people who are actually trans, and also rules which are there to protect women and children in particular. that is why we have the regulations that we do about to how get a gender certificate. what labour is doing is saying, oh, these rules are so terrible, you have to speak to two doctors. how humiliating will make sure it's only one, which means it's easier for you to find, you

know, a helpful doctor, you know, a helpful doctor, you know, we've seen this on the private side as well. people going to gender gp, a very discredited clinic to get to get what it is they need puberty blockers, etc. so we just want to put safeguards in place to protect women and children, but also to protect trans people as well. i've never said anything negative about trans people. they are the ones who put words in my mouth. they are the ones who carry out the toxic debate as we saw with david tennant, as we saw with dawn butler and other labour mps. and i will never be silenced by them. i will never stop fighting because there are a lot of women out there are a lot of women out there who need someone to give them a voice. jk rowling is an example of someone who's done that brilliantly , used her high that brilliantly, used her high profile to fight for other women as the minister for women and equalities. that is what i will always do, whether or not i have this job. >> well though, is it disappointing that the harry potter author has said i'm still can't countenance voting for laboun can't countenance voting for labour, despite having previously supported them both as a voter, but also

financially. but she hasn't go gone so far as to say i will vote tory, which might be disappointing to you because you've absolutely been on her side on this. >> it's always disappointing if people won't vote conservative. so that's that's obviously what what i'm about. but you can't make people vote in a way that they don't want to. and this should not be a tory issue . this should not be a tory issue. this should not be a tory issue. this should be a cross—party issue, and there are a few mps like rosie duffield, who are on the right side of history on this. the problem is that too many mps on the left in labour, in the snp, in liberal democrats, are just desperate for celebrities to notice them. please, please david tennant, notice me. that's why dawn butler is tweeting they are in politics for the wrong reasons for showbusiness to be noticed. they're not there to help other people. that's why they don't care about the woman in a prison who's got a rapist. you know, in her cell. they're not interested in that. they know that's never going to be them. we have to as politicians, we've got to think about those

people who aren't necessarily lucky to be in the same circumstances that we are. >> so shadow education secretary bridget phillipson has basically said that she thinks it's okay for a man who identifies as a woman to use a woman's toilet, even if he stroke . she hasn't even if he stroke. she hasn't undergone any gender reassignment surgery, what's your response to that? >> so this was why we said that we were going to change the law, to make it clear that sex and the equality act is biological sex. she doesn't understand the issue. many labour mps, i would say most of them don't really understand what this is about, and they don't want to know. they don't want to know what's going on. they just want to sound nice so that their, you know, celebrity friends and so on. all the luvvies will think that they're nice people and they're also confused about what they're also confused about what the process is. nobody asks you for a piece of paper or a certificate when you're going to the toilet. we all use sites to

know who should be there and who shouldn't be there. what we're trying to prevent is people thinking that some men are allowed to be there. if they say they're trans when they are not. yes. and so the paperwork is long after things have gone wrong and then you go to court. but it's so that people who own those businesses where they don't know what to do, know that the law is on their side. if theyif the law is on their side. if they if they are right at the moment, they don't. >> has keir starmer been clear enough on this? i mean, we had the conversation between him and rosie duffield. she said that only women can have a cervix. he said that's not right. he was then asked if women had penises. he said 99.9% of women don't. it's just very . then there's the it's just very. then there's the tony blair comment. women have vaginas, men have penises. he said he agreed with that. >> i think he is very conflicted. he is all over the place on this , and people are place on this, and people are all over the place when they don't have convictions and when they're just trying to tell people what they want to hear. that's what you see with keir starmer. that's why we call him

flip flop starmer. so what does this person want to hear? i will tell them that. and then you move to a different audience and so you're all over the place. he is not he has not routed those comments in any conviction. and that's why i don't trust what he says.i that's why i don't trust what he says. i don't trust what he says. >> you're clearly a woman of conviction, and you're being touted as a future leader of the conservative party, a future prime minister. comparisons have been made with your robust approach and your clear ideological ideology with margaret thatcher. what's happening to the conservative party right now and you being so far behind in the polls and this support from your original fan base going to nigel farage's reform must really hurt. this must be a very difficult election for you to be fighting. >> it does hurt and it is a difficult election. i am fighting my seats like it was a marginal. normally it would be a very reliable conservative seat. yeah. you've got 27,000 majority, slightly smaller. the smaller after boundary changes, after boundary changes. but there is no safe seat in this

election. >> all of murdering that you might lose your seats. >> all of my colleagues are fighting like we are fighting marginals. i have a strong record locally. i think that, it's going to be fine, but when iknock it's going to be fine, but when i knock on doors, i am meeting former conservative voters, voting reform. and it breaks my heart because i know that they're not going to get what they're not going to get what they think they will get if they vote, have sympathy with those former tory stroke. >> now reform voters because a lot of their beliefs will align with yours. i mean, you're known for being a fully throated right winger. you're a brexiteer. you know, you make the arguments on the right very clearly , very the right very clearly, very cogently. and yet the criticism is that the tories have failed them. the tories have failed to match their manifesto pledges. they've failed them on tax because tax has gone up rather than down. they've failed them on immigration because it's gone up rather than down. and you're there fighting the good fight like many other tories on the stump. but it's difficult and it's also difficult to see these mistakes occurring in the

national campaign beyond your control. the d—day debacle, the betting thing. i mean, how do you turn it around with less than a week to go now until the polls close? >> well, i think we still can turn it around. and what i would say to those voters is, i understand we have all had our frustrations, even those of us who've been in government at what has happened. we think that immigration is too high. the prime minister thinks immigration is too high. we had a system where we were told we'd only get 6000 people coming in for care. instead, we got many , for care. instead, we got many, many more than that, plus their dependents. but we are bringing it down. but the other thing i think we haven't done well enoughis think we haven't done well enough is let people know just how much bad stuff we have stopped. people have no idea. i mean, when i was local government minister, the officials in the department wouldn't let me look at the social care funding differently. they said that if i, used a formula that benefited councils that spent lots on social care, it would help elderly white

christian areas and would be discriminatory. i stopped that. if you have a labour mp, that kind of stuff is going to happen. there's so much that we have been doing behind the scenes that people don't realise. i remember when there was that. do you remember when, nigel farage's bank account was closed by people don't know the word conservative ministers did to intervene. we were speaking to intervene. we were speaking to them and saying, to intervene. we were speaking to them and saying , this is not to them and saying, this is not right, you know, because we own shares in the bank. we intervened. it's going to be labour next time. if people vote reform or labour and if you listen to what labour said at the time, they didn't care that nigel farage's bank account was being closed, even though he is our opponent, we treat people fairly. if we do have a labour government, i think that reform voters and anyone voting anything except conservative will understand that they will come for you, they will come for you in the same way we saw all of these people go after those people who had run vote leave in the same way that we saw the endless, relentless attacks on bofis endless, relentless attacks on boris johnson. they will come

for if whatever 2 or 3 reform people manage to get elected. but the difference is it won't be conservative ministers. there it will be labour ministers like the woman who i was referencing earlier who said i wished she wishes i didn't exist. that is what's coming and i'm very worried about that. a couple of your conservative colleagues have put their heads above the parapet and said, i will stand as leader. >> we've had steve baker, we've had tom tugendhat, we've had penny mordaunt hint at it. if she retains her seat, will you run for leader? >> well, i've said to everyone that i don't want to talk about leadership debates because my constituents actually say that they don't like us talking about ourselves. the most common thing that i've heard on the doorstep has actually not been immigration, but that they are tired of, the endless personality politics and fighting. so in answering that question, i sort of succumb to succumb to it. people knew that i tried to run two years ago, i didn't win, rishi sunak is the one who had the confidence of mps, and i think it's actually

disrespectful if people are talking about what they're going to do after the leadership, when he's still there. my job now is to make sure that i win my seat, that as many of my conservative colleagues win their seats and do the very best we can for the country. and that means supporting the prime minister, rishi sunak, in what is a very, very difficult job. >> okay, well, let's put it a slightly different way. that might be easier to answer because i do appreciate your positioning on that. and we're still in the middle of this election campaign. what do you think of future conservative party should look like, perhaps depending on the result, which at the moment, if you believe the polls isn't going to be great and there's going to have to be a lot of rethinking of things on the right, what do you think the tory party of the future should look like? kemi. >> it needs to be one that occupies the whole, of the centre right, not just the centre, because that's where we're losing to reform. we're being hit on the left, being told that we're too right wing and hit from the right are being told that we're too, too left wing. we've got to be a little

bit broader in that direction at the moment. we're a very broad church. we're a very broad coalition, which is broad, which is why sometimes we disagree. well, you say too broad, but clearly, not so broad that we haven't been able to keep, reform voters . so there needs to reform voters. so there needs to be some kind of, some kind of clarity that comes into place. people need to know that we are conservative. people need to know that we are on their side, that we will defend them, that we won't let the left wing activists come for them. we won't let just stop oil block the roads and stop them from going about their daily business. people are so frustrated that things aren't working because a certain category of people are out there obstructing, obstructing them and i get that. i have the same thing in my job. this david tennant thing is just the tip of the iceberg. i have unions trying to stop my staff working on things like the israel fta. they're trying to spoil work that we're doing, downing, downing tools. a lot of it is union activity . i've had the union activity. i've had the guardian, for instance. messaging my civil servants, saying, well, we took down

dominic raab. can you tell, give us any bullying stories on kemi badenoch and that's because the left is afraid of us. they don't want people on the right in power. they're constantly trying to take us out, so they will look for anything they can to smear our names. but we need to be there to defend not just ourselves, but all of those good people all around the country who are, you know, understandably disappointed. we need to do better at showing them the good that we have done. it's been really tough. covid pandemic. every time we think, oh, okay, now we can get back to it. something else happens and knocks us sideways. but we have still kept the stability. imagine what it would have been like if we had labour during covid, or labour when that initial russian invasion to ukraine happened. they would not have sent weapons. they would not have supported many of those good people. so who your viewers would even be having in their homes now, we still have a lot of ukrainians staying in people's homes, being looked after, making friends. that would not have happened under a labour government. they would just have left it, left it and let russia do what they like under jeremy corbyn. >> so you have as a party and as

an individual in your seat, you're sort of fighting for your political life, but it sounds to me as if there's still quite a lot of fight left in you. yes, in the sense that whatever happens on july the 5th and you remain in your seat, then you have got the fight of your life on your hands to try and help to reunite the right. >> we do. we've got to win the election first. we're still fighting to win. there's a few days to go. anything could happen. i think the public are beginning to wake up to the reality of a potential labour government. if they don't vote conservative. but we have to take each day as it comes. we have to take each battle as it comes. i don't want to be fighting next year's battle today. i want to be fighting today's battle today. and yes, you're all right. i am somebody you're all right. i am somebody you know. i don't go out looking for fights, but if the fight is there, you've got to see it through. you can't run away when there are difficult things to do. >> kemi badenoch. thank you very much indeed. >> thank you. camilla >> thank you. camilla >> well, thanks again to kemi badenoch not ruling out being a future tory leader. you'll note now, in just a minute, i'm going to be joined by a cross—party political panel to dissect what

the business secretary shared with us in that stay

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm delighted to be joined now by former labour minister bill rammell and lib dem federal board member callum robertson to discuss that interview with kemi badenoch. first of all, bill. she demanded a personal apology from david tennant after he said she should shut up and disappear because of her views on transgender issues. what do you reckon? he should apologise, shouldn't he? he was very rude. >> he should. look, i'm a fan of david tennant's, but i think it was. he was wrong. it was, present and say he was wishing for a world where she doesn't exist. my god, language matters in politics. we've had two mps murdered in the last few years. that's unacceptable. and also, you know, she should just shut up. it had a whiff of misogyny about it . but also, you know, we about it. but also, you know, we need free speech and open debate

to resolve problems, i would broadly agree it's language matters, doesn't it? i strongly disagree with kemi badenoch views. she has a right to have those views. i will debate those views. i will discuss those views. i will discuss those views. of course i will. but i think, yeah, the particular words shut up. that whiff of misogyny that doesn't help the debate at all. it doesn't help the discussion. and when you don't help the discussion, actually what it does is it inflames the culture war that doesn't need inflamed. yes in his defence, i was talking to someone yesterday who was at the awards ceremony and a lot of dnnk awards ceremony and a lot of drink had been imbibed, and that may have contributed. >> that doesn't excuse it, doesn't excuse it. it may explain it, but it doesn't justify it in general. what did you make of that interview? i mean, she presented herself very well and very strongly. she's clearly i mean, she wouldn't say it to me, but i there's an inevitability about her standing for the leadership. right. >> assuming she wins her seat, which is still still a question mark. i think she is. it was about positioning for the leadership. she was constantly trying to set up false dividing

lines with the labour party. so when she said, you know , if we'd when she said, you know, if we'd beenin when she said, you know, if we'd been in government, we wouldn't have supported ukraine. not a shred of evidence to back up that statement. but in terms of communication, i think it was effective. and assuming she does win her seat, then i think clearly she's going to stand for the leadership. >> yeah. callum, i mean, did you have much sympathy when she said it breaks her heart to see people who are traditional tory voters voting for reform the level of child poverty that this government has inflicted on us breaks my heart. >> frankly, her sort of like slight pity party about the fact that her government has screwed everything up. that i don't feel sympathy for that at all. i feel sympathy for that at all. i feel sympathy for that at all. i feel sympathy for the families hit by her government's cost of living crisis. i feel, sorry for the families that are being really badly hit by, inflation going through the roof by although it's come down, it's still going. it's still obviously we're still in a stage where growth is sluggish as well. like we're not in a good place for the country, our public services starved. i mean, i'm a school teacher by trade and actually we don't have enough specialist teachers confidence all these

problems will be solved by a labour government . they labour government. they physically i'm obviously i want a lib dem government, but, they physically can't be worse than the current tories. and i think that's the mood of the country. summed up is actually people just like, do you know what, screw it. like i don't particularly like keir starmer or i'm not enthusiastic about keir starmer, but he seems fundamentally a relatively decent person. yeah. whereas sunak seems well bill, i mean you say that we've discussed it and we're going to see my interview with pat mcfadden in just a moment where i sort of put to him that he is extremely unpopular. >> starmer is down on —19 and tony blair was on plus 22. but just back to kemi badenoch this idea that if she is the woman to reunite the right, that the right should be right and shouldn't just be wishy washy centrist. what's your response to that? because it's quite difficult for the tories of the future. can they outright reform 7 future. can they outright reform ? maybe not. but equally, this kind of centrist position that was occupied by david cameron and george osborne now seems to have worked against them. and that's why so many people are voting for reform. >> i don't think they can

outright reform, and i don't think they should. my question mark for kemi badenoch is actually is she right wing enough to win the leadership amongst the tories? do you not think she is right wing enough? no. i think if you look at some of her track record, for example, on brexit, deregulation, she's offended some of the people on the hard right of the tory party. so i think that's a question for her. but if she thinks if she's selected as the leader, she then positions them further towards the reform end of the spectrum, the reform end of the spectrum, the tories can't win from there. you know, fundamentally in this country, and i think this general election is demonstrating. well, hang on minute. >> boris johnson won with the support of brexit party voters, who ergo are probably reform voters. right. >> unique circumstances. people were sick and tired after two years of wrangling over brexit, wanted to get it done and jeremy corbyn was unelectable. yeah. >> do you agree with that analysis, callum? i mean, otherwise you've got a lot of different parties, you've got a labour supermajority occupying labour superm ajority occupying centre, labour supermajority occupying centre, centre left. we've got a

liberal democrat party occupying i'd say left. i mean, would you disagree with that? >> i'd say we broadly occupy the centre. centre. >> all right. and then you've got, you know, other independent candidates, the green and everything . so the question for everything. so the question for the right is how right wing the tories become . tories become. >> i think they're sort of a circle of and diagram between how right wing you become and how right wing you become and how detached from reality you are, ultimately, what is some of the what some of the stuff kemi badenoch is polling better than the lib dems. >> so why are you saying that? >> so why are you saying that? >> because actually, whilst they might be polling ever so slightly better than us, well, actually, if we look at what they're advocating for, what they're advocating for, what they're advocating for will make they're advocating for will make the very people they're appealing to whose lives worse. >> yeah, but they're more popular. so how can you be saying that? you're right and they're wrong just because someone's popular in a view, it doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong. >> i disagree with him. >> i disagree with him. >> they've got to get more votes, and they've certainly got to get more votes than reform. i appreciate first past the post is going to benefit them, but the vote shares small, isn't it, for the lib dems? >> we're sitting between 12 and

15. i know reform are up at 17 to 25. >> if you believe other pollsters 15 to 19 roughly. >> but you know what? what's interesting? if this campaign went on for another two weeks, i think the reform vote would start to fall because farage is coming under scrutiny now, and it really doesn't add up. and i think it's beginning to fall apart at the seams. bill rammell, callum robertson i know you're going to be with us for the rest of our election coverage. >> thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. forjoining me this morning. coming up next, i'm going to be joined by pat mcfadden, the man who has been the force behind sir keir starmer's will labour be number 10 on friday? stay

us. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. earlier on, i was joined by labour's national campaign manager, pat mcfadden . campaign manager, pat mcfadden. it's another good interview. this even if i say so myself . this even if i say so myself. stay tuned. because this is what he had to say . pat mcfadden, he had to say. pat mcfadden, labour's national campaign

coordinator, joins me in the studio now. lovely to see you, mr mcfadden, labour isn't always an easy fit for gb news viewers and listeners . an easy fit for gb news viewers and listeners. i think an easy fit for gb news viewers and listeners . i think they're and listeners. i think they're worried about secret taxes being imposed on them by a potential labour government . obviously, labour government. obviously, we're now close to election day . we're now close to election day. can you just clarify who you are going to tax? because we know who you aren't. you've said you're not going to tax working people. i think people understand that notion of not increasing income tax, vat or national insurance contributions. but the fear is you're going to be taxing other things like wealth and property. so can you clarify who you are going to tax? because you'll have to make this money for your spending plan somehow. >> it's not actually the way that we're approaching the election at all. i've done lots of interviews during the campaign. i've been asked lots of questions about tax and the way the answers don't change. we're not going to increase, income tax, national insurance or vat . income tax, national insurance or vat. nothing in our manifesto requires taxes beyond the other

2 or 3 small things that we've said are central. proposition isn't if we win the election to go into power. thinking about tax. our central proposition is how do we make the economy stronger? and that debate hasn't really featured in the election enough. how do we get more investment in how do we build more houses? how do we get more people into work ? because the people into work? because the truth is, tax here or tax there, which has been a lot of debate on in this election, isn't really going to change the fortunes of the uk very much. isn't really going to change the fortunes of individual households very much the only way to do that, and the only way to stop us falling further behind. similar households in france, germany and the netherlands is to have a stronger economy. that's what's at the heart of our manifesto, not lots of tax proposals. >> okay. i mean, i suppose the suspicion, particularly about a wealth tax is that rachel reeves, the woman who wants to

be the first female chancellor, has spoken about that in the past. rishi sunak today has said that labour will bankrupt every generation. he's claimed in the past that raising taxes in labour's dna. mark my words, your pension , your council tax, your pension, your council tax, your pension, your council tax, your home, your car, you name it , they will tax it. which is why starmer can't rule out raising your taxes. you can't rule out raising taxes on, for instance, pensions , council tax, your pensions, council tax, your home. your car can you or would you like to rule that out now can i give two reflections on rishi sunak's list there, first of all, these are all things he has taxed. and many of them things he's increased taxes on. if you take pensions , there are if you take pensions, there are 700,000 extra pensioners paying tax in the past year alone because of policies that he's put in place, either as chancellor or as prime minister. people are already taxed on their car, they're already paying their car, they're already paying council tax . he talks

paying council tax. he talks about these things as though they are new, but the other about labour, though, the bigger point, the bigger point i'd make about this list of the sky will fall in the rivers will run red, and whatever else is on his list. it all sounded a bit desperate to me, to be honest. there's a really, i think, difficult proposition at the heart of it, which is that this is as good as things can get, you know, a parliament where living standards are lower at the end of it than they were at the end of it than they were at the beginning. a parliament where nhs waiting lists are nudging 8 million people and a parliament. we've seen this betting scandal and so we can do better than this. okay, but these warnings, the counterargument to that, then do not. >> you're saying you're saying britain's broken under the conservatives and you're going to fix it. so the electorate will rightly think, well, that's going to cost some money. and therefore when he says that starmer hasn't ruled out raising taxes on the following things, maybe you can clarify will you raise taxes on pensions? yes or no ? no? >> there is nothing in our plans

that requires. >> why can't you rule it out now then? okay. how about this? will you increase council tax or re band council tax? >> well, there's already under the tory plans, an assumption that council tax will go up under their plans. >> okay. so will it go up under a labour government. >> nothing in our plans that requires council tax to go up will you tax people's homes? there is nothing in our plans that requires us. >> can you rule out taxing people more to drive a car, or to put petrol and diesel into a car? can you rule that out? >> there is nothing in our plans that requires us to do that. now you could go nothing in our plans and ruling things out are two different things, but you could go through . there are could go through. there are probably 200 different taxes and this is the tory tactic to raise a scare story about labour, on the basis that, they, you know, these accusations they will make and as i say, in many of the cases, they've increased taxes on these things themselves , on these things themselves, especially on pensions. it's about 3.5 million more

pensioners paying tax today compared to when the tories. >> so should the electorate conclude from this interview then that you can't rule out taxing the things that rishi sunak has mentioned, but you have no plans. >> what the electorate should conclude from this interview is that here's a party that doesn't see this just as tax and spend. here's a party putting economic growth at the heart of its plans. and i think that is a much bigger, prospect for the country. just let me illustrate what this would mean if we'd kept the same rate of economic growth from the labour years through the conservative years, the economy would be £150 billion bigger. right now . billion bigger. right now. >> i mean, that doesn't take into account a global financial sense. you'd have tens of billions of covid or a war in ukraine, these things, but you'd have tens of billions of pounds move on to public services without changing any tax rates. let's move on to the issue of transgenderism . on radio five transgenderism. on radio five live, sir keir was challenged by a caller called jane, who said

he'd been talking absolute twaddle about transgender policy. she's right, isn't he ? policy. she's right, isn't he? he's confused on this. he said, that it's wrong to suggest that only women have a cervix, that 99.9% of women, of course , 99.9% of women, of course, haven't got a penis. he's all over the place on this. isn't he? >> men have penises. women have cervixes. and that's. well, why are you so clear ? are you so clear? >> and the labour leader isn't. >> and the labour leader isn't. >> look, look, i think with this issue, it's relatively new in terms of its political, you know, being asked on interviews like this if i'd come on here five years ago, we probably wouldn't have been talking about this. no that's right, and i think people have worked through this issue. i think we are in the right place now, we want to have a process for this that people want to change their genden people want to change their gender. we're not in favour of self—id. we want to protect women's only spaces. >> so on that if we be kind to people, if we can be clear, then if we want to protect women's

spaces, should a trans woman with a penis be able to use a woman's toilet, yes or no? >> well , where do they go at the moment? >> you tell me . i'm asking you >> you tell me. i'm asking you the question. >> well, i don't police where they go, but do you think that a trans woman with a penis should be able to use a woman's toilet? >> because women will say that if you've got a biologically born man still with his genhaua born man still with his genitalia intact, using a woman's toilet, which is a woman's toilet, which is a woman's only space, then that woman's only space, then that woman's only space isn't being preserved for women only. >> well, where do they go? at the moment would be my question. i mean, people , what? i mean, people, what? >> what are you suggesting? >> what are you suggesting? >> we should have women's toilets. men's toilets? and then the transgender people should use a disabled toilet. >> there's a lot of places now that do have a range of toilets, but i'm not going to police where people go to the bathroom. and when people ask me this question, i always say, what do you think happens now? >> should we clear up something else as well? david lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, has suggested that biological men can grow a cervix. is that right? >> i don't think that's right.

>> i don't think that's right. >> no. so he's wrong on that one. there's concern about labour perhaps realigning with the eu. i know you've ruled that out in the manifesto in terms of rejoining the single market or customs union, but is this sort of trying to reverse the referendum by stealth over the course of the next 4 to 5 years? how closely aligned do you want to be with the eu, not least when the complexion of the european parliament has changed somewhat since 2016? >> look, we don't want to rerun this argument. when you talked about, you talked about i have a slight you know, we've been through a lot since 2016. i voted remain in the referendum, but i accept the result and the task of leadership. now for whoever wins the election on thursday is to make the best future that we can outside the european union. and that's what we want to do. we don't want to rerun this argument. britain's made its decision. now i think we can have a good and positive relationship with our neighbours. i think when you see russia invading ukraine, you realise we've got a lot in

common with western european democracies. >> even if you're dealing with a hard right party in france. >> well, you know, that's i've got one election to worry about. i'm not going to worry about the french election in any country , french election in any country, you have to deal with whoever the people elect. that's that's the people elect. that's that's the way it works, but i think we can have a good and positive relationship with european countries without rerunning the brexit argument . brexit argument. >> quick question on vat on private school fees. lord pannick has suggested that it may be in breach of human rights legislation, that it may breach the right to education, and has made the point that there's no charging of vat on other aspects of education, no vat on university fees, for instance, or if you go to any other establishment. so do you agree that it may breach human rights? >> well, he's a great legal expert, but i think there are other legal views available, as there often are on these matters. and what i'd say about that policy more generally is this is people's free choice.

you know, if people want to do that, they have every right to do that. and what we have had to do that. and what we have had to do here is a difficult decision, because we want to make sure that every child of every background gets the best opportunity possible. >> final question, mr mcfadden. we now see that the net satisfaction score of keir starmer is minus 19. when blair came into power, he was on plus 22. in fact, cameron was on plus three and thatcher was on plus 11. so might we have a labour supermajority? but with somebody at the helm who may be one of the most unpopular newly elected pms in history? >> look, i think the country's been through a lot, i think faith in politics probably has taken a step back in recent years, i don't think , the years, i don't think, the opposition party, is really responsible for that because we haven't been running the country for 14 years. and really, that's why when it comes to the manifesto that we put forward, a lot of people have said to me in

interviews like this over the last month or so, why aren't you promising more? why aren't you promising more? why aren't you promising to do this? why aren't you promising to do that? the answer is, first of all, we recognise the situation we will inherit the country is in a difficult economic spot, and so we wanted to make sure that what we wanted to make sure that what we said we would do could be delivered and we'd say exactly how we'd pay for it. delivered and we'd say exactly how we'd pay for it . and i how we'd pay for it. and i actually think, i know this is a partisan point. i think we've shown a lot more responsibility in the way that we've approached point of starmer's specific unpopularity, net satisfaction minus 19. >> it's nothing like blair is he? blair was on plus 22. >> well, you know, we're in a different age in different times. the country has been through a lot . but the point, through a lot. but the point, the reason i raised the manifesto is i think he is a leader who, if he is elected, wants to deliver what he said he'd do not promise things that he'd do not promise things that he can't deliver. and i think the responsibility levels shown in the labour manifesto are really in stark contrast to the tories, where they've produced all these promises of tax cuts

here, there and everywhere. i'm surprised they haven't promised everybody free beer for christmas. and when you get down to how are you going to pay for it? it's through welfare savings that have already been budgeted for and everyone will tell you you can't spend the same money twice. >> pat mcfadden. thank you very much indeed for your time this morning. thank you. thank you. coming up next, i'm going to be speaking to the author and broadcaster paul morland, new book looks why the world needs to have

welcome back. a really interesting topic to discuss now, at the end of the show, because i'm delighted to be joined by author and broadcaster paul morland, who has written this book. no one left, about how the world is facing a crisis of underpopulation paul. i mean, we've had a whole election campaign debating mass immigration and to britain's full, and we can't take any

more. and you're saying that we actually need to have more children? >> well, the reason we've had mass immigration, i would argue very strongly, is that we've had too few children for the last 50 years. and if you talk to government ministers or spads, they'll all tell you business is crying out for more labour and whatever the population's view is, whatever the popular view, there's this enormous pressure in the economic system for more workers because people were only having 1 or 2 children in the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, rather than 2 or 3. how should we be having 2 or 3 then? 2 or 3 on average is the magic number. some will have more, some will have less. but if that's the average, society is in good shape. >> but this seems counterintuitive, particularly to a gb audience's fears that built up areas are becoming overpopulated. so is this necessarily a britain problem or is it a world problem? and there are countries which are having issues that we're not having. >> it's hugely a global problem. the point is that more and more countries are getting to that point where they're not having enough kids, they've got rapidly ageing populations, and they would have falling populations. and they do have it in the case

of china or russia, japan, or they would have like germany if they would have like germany if they didn't have mass immigration. so you can't have more and more of the world having fewer and fewer kids , having fewer and fewer kids, relying on less and less of the world to supply its labour. so this is very much the elon musk argument that we should be having what i would call it, the paul morland, i call it the paul morland argument. >> he's stealing your ideas. so let's talk. >> he's welcome to them. we need the story. >> well, it's quite good to have him. you know, he's got such a big platform to be saying it. so which of the areas that are geographically the worst at sort of producing more kids. >> the very worst is east asia. it's extraordinary. people think, oh, it's a european problem. it's a white people. it's not. east asia has got collapsing demography in south korea, for example, each cohort is a third of the size of the last one, two people make point seven of a person. so 100 grandparents and you're down to a dozen six, 15, 16 grandchildren. that's what's coming. >> and what's the situation like in africa? >> the only part of the world

where families are still large is sub—saharan africa. yeah, but even there, it's starting to fall dramatically in places like kenya and ethiopia. still very high. lots of economic growth in the economic and demographic growth in the work. their populations will carry on growing. but they too will eventually hit the point where they're not having enough jul and we're already starting to see it fall in parts of east africa. >> and how much do you think sort of westernisation and people perhaps getting married later and more divorces, and perhaps that erosion of family life has played a part. and how much is it ? life has played a part. and how much is it? financial pressures? people are saying, look, i can't afford to have one more than one or more children. i think it's culture. >> i think it's the first set of things you talked about, and we've got to find ways to have women's rights. we've got to have find ways to have prosperous, modern, urban, educated economies and societies where we have large families. how can it be all about money when it's richer and richer countries that have lower and lower fertility? >> well, then you might say, well, but also richer countries

having lower fertility, but also a lack of contraception in countries like africa means that people aren't choosing to have that many children. that must also be accepted. >> africa has rolled out a lot of contraception. that's a good thing. i think people should control their fertility. i don't want them to have to have large families. i want them to choose to have 2 or 3 children on average, because that's what we need as a society for a stable and reasonable economic and social growth. that doesn't require mass immigration. i'm relying on others to have the children we should be having ourselves. >> but paul, i mean, to just drill in that point about sort of women's lib, you're not blaming feminists for this, are you? or are they in part to blame? >> i think we need women to be completely part of our modern societies. i've got daughters as well as a son. they're out in the workplace, they got great educations, but they're also having children. we need to find a way as a society to give women complete rights to get them in the workplace. if that's where they want to go. and at the same time, for men to step up, for grandparents to step up for us all, to help young couples who

need to be having more children than they are. >> also, perhaps childcare and the affordability or lack of affordability of childcare is a problem. we're asking women to do it all, to have it all. and actually some women saying, well, it doesn't pay for me to go to work. i'd be better off staying at home because my nursery fees are like a second mortgage. >> two things that are really important are housing and childcare, and we need to do a lot on both of those. and this government, to be fair to her, has done something on childcare. we need to be careful though, because where housing is cheap in some parts of the uk, in lots of parts of europe, southeast europe , germany where childcare europe, germany where childcare is highly subsidised , as in is highly subsidised, as in germany, they still have a very low fertility rate . low fertility rate. >> right? >> right? >> so when we fix those problems, when we fix those problems, when we fix those problems, we are still going to have a problem with a fertility rate that's too low. >> and final question, paul. the divide now between younger people and the younger population and the older population and the older population just spell out how difficult that might be for, for instance, our children's generation, because we're going to have too many oldies and not

enough young'uns. >> well, if you want to know what it's like, look at japan. they've got lots and lots of old people. it's marvellous. people lead long lives. they've got fewer and fewer young people in the workforce. they have less and less dynamic economy, less and less dynamic economy, less and less dynamic economy, less and less invention, less creativity, less of a tax base, more of a burden on the health care system, the pension system. and the prime minister of japan is talking about societal collapse. we'll get there, too. >> all right. well that's that's a negative place to land. but at the same time, no one left. check out paul moreland's brilliant book. thank you very much indeed forjoining me in the studio. that's me. done for another day. i'm going to be back. what day is it? it's sunday. i'm going to be back on monday at tomorrow at 7:00 pm, because i'll be covering vote 2024. i'm also going to be hosting election night with stephen dixon. so do tune in. 9:55 pm. is when we start on thursday. right through the night. coming up next. it's michael portillo who's got a great show planned. so please stay tuned because he'll be lots saying, lots about the coming election. have a good rest of

your sunday. thank you

>> good morning, and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. the midsummer sun beats down upon britain . our british upon britain. our british election is heating up in this programme. during the two hours spanning noon, will attempt concentrated and enlightened debate. as we discuss politics, global affairs and the world of culture. the remaining time before polling stations opened their doors can now be counted in hours. on friday, who will pass through the door adorned with the number 10, the 256th iteration of the royal academy summer exhibition, whose busy walls resemble a multi—coloured patchwork quilt which displays

the artistic efforts of