tonight. we're now in the nation tonight. we're now in the nation tonight. we're now in the election week, the final furlong, if you will. but could we really be in for the lowest number of seats the tories have ever won in the party's 200 year history? and the largest ever labour majority. reform uk hosted a trump style rally over the weekend with as many as 5000 attendees. so will the ascendancy of nigel farage compare to that of donald trump? we'll also dive into trump's newfound partial court immunity. the labour party has taken aim at the labyrinthine planning system , with suggestions they system, with suggestions they could defy the nimbys and build on the green belt if elected. but could that really be the end of the housing crisis? plus, marine le pen has wiped out emmanuel macron's party in the first round of the french parliamentary election. so what does this mean for the future of europe? find out shortly. state of the nation starts now .

of the nation starts now. i'll also be joined by my panel in the studio. former labour mp stephen pound and associate comment editor at the telegraph, moutaz ahmed . that's all coming moutaz ahmed. that's all coming up after your latest headlines with polly middlehurst. >> tom, thank you and good evening to you. well, the top story from the gb news room tonight is that rishi sunak says a victory for labour in this week's election would see britain's borders become the soft touch of europe . soft touch of europe. campaigning in oxfordshire today, the prime minister insisted that flights to rwanda are an essential deterrent for illegal migrants coming to britain , and warned that other britain, and warned that other parties have failed to put forward credible alternatives. >> it is a deterrent. it's very simple. i don't think illegal migrants should get to stay in

our country. they should be removed to a safe alternative. thatis removed to a safe alternative. that is the only way to stop people coming in the first place. that's what you'll get if i'm your prime minister. a vote for anyone else. just means that we are going to become the soft touch of europe when it comes to illegal migration. we've had two debates head to head, and anyone who's watched them will have seen that. keir starmer just simply can't answer the question what would he do with illegal migrants that come to our country? he doesn't have a plan. ihave country? he doesn't have a plan. i have a plan. >> rishi sunak, well, sir keir starmer says he'll have to make tough choices to deal with a very difficult inheritance if he wins power on thursday, the leader also said a clear mandate is needed to repair britain's economy and he warns apathy could lead to another five years of the conservatives. the shadow paymaster general, jonathan ashworth, told gb news though a vote for labour is a vote for change, there are lots of people who still deciding. >> lots of people are still weighing up their options. but honestly, if you want to change

this country, you've got to come out and vote labour voting for any of the other parties helps rishi sunak get re—elected. so if you don't want to switch on gb news on friday morning and hear that rishi sunak has been re—elected, if you don't want to wake up to that vote, labour on thursday . thursday. >> meanwhile, the liberal democrats say they'll spend £444 million a year on supporting widows and bereaved children. the party said it would aim to double bereavement support payments, citing years of cuts under the conservative government. under current rules, those families who are eligible receive a lump sum of two and a half up to i should say, 3500 pounds, followed by a monthly payment of up to £350 for 18 months. and just lastly, the tennis champion, emma raducanu, has beaten mexico's renata zarazua in the first round at wimbledon, the classic british tennis tournament opened up today, with reigning men's

champion alcaraz looking to retain his title. andy murray expected to decide some time this evening or tomorrow morning whether or not he'll make a final singles appearance or whether he'll join his brother in the doubles. the two time former champion has been in a race against time since struggling with a back problem . struggling with a back problem. that's all from me. i'm back in an hour. see you then. >> for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . forward slash alerts. >> welcome back to state of the nafion >> welcome back to state of the nation i'm tom harwood. it was the 95th minute. all hope appeared to be lost. the country

held its breath as england slogged on from the 25th minute. the three lions were trailing slovakia by the time we reached the announcement that there would be five minutes of injury time, fans were already leaving the stadium. yet, as if by magic, as if the pantheon of football gods were watching over in the 95th minute, jude bellingham's bicycle kick goal propelled us into extra time, high drama and what followed was, of course, political leaders sharing their verdict of the game . rishi sunak was quick the game. rishi sunak was quick to comment on the website formerly known as twitter, the southampton fan said it's not over until it's over, along with a picture of him throwing a celebratory fist into the air. meanwhile, sir keir starmer's interpretation took a slightly different view . the arsenal fan different view. the arsenal fan boldly told his following that it was never in doubt. an

interesting contrast, perhaps, perhaps not an entirely related to those two respective leaders. the labour party maintains its 20 point lead in the polls, a win for keir starmer would certainly be described as never in doubt. meanwhile, for the conservative party, which does well to break past 20% in the polls at the moment, and it's not over until it's over, attitude does seem apposite off the back of our votes, 2024 the leader's interview with rishi sunak gb news political editor christopher hope told this programme that the prime minister appeared to be a new man with a new found energy. however, following his robust performance against sir keir in the leader's debate. we've also seen this vigour from his attacks on nigel farage. >> what nigel farage said about putin was completely wrong, right? and that kind of appeasement is so damaging. when my two daughters have to see and hear reform people who campaign for nigel farage calling me an

effing . it hurts and it makes me effing. it hurts and it makes me angry. and i think he has some questions to answer . questions to answer. >> gloves off. but is this newfound energy and character going to be enough for a 95th minute winner on the 4th of july? personally, i wouldn't bet on it. well, i'm joined now by the former conservative environment secretary george eustice to discuss the final moments. the last five minutes of this general election campaign. george, thanks for joining us. my goodness me. is this not the most peculiar election we've ever seen ? the election we've ever seen? the results could be the most dramatic in this country's parliamentary history. and yet the campaign has seen , frankly, the campaign has seen, frankly, quite so dull. >> yes, i think always people by this stage are sick of election campaigns. whichever one it is, you can look at newspaper coverage of the 1997 election. and even though in retrospect people talk about that as some sort of exciting time at the time, people said it was dull

and boring and nobody was addressing the issues. so you can always say that about elections, but i think for this one, it's been particularly difficult for the conservative party because , you know, they've party because, you know, they've gone into it on the ropes, 20 points behind in the polls, having already spent two years trying to sort of change those fortunes and get some momentum behind the party, you know, without success, you know, taking a big gamble that an election would shake things up and close the gap. and there isn't much evidence of that happening to date. so i think it's very difficult for the party to fight this election. but all they can do is get in the saddle every day, ride into battle and keep fighting. because, you know, the one thing we do know in elections is there's losing and then there's losing badly. and there will be dozens and dozens of seats that are in contention that are on a knife edge, where the result might be settled with just a few hundred votes. and we need conservative activists in those seats to be out there fighting to win those seats right up to the line. >> of course, the contention of people like nigel farage is what's the difference between a labour government with a majority of 100 or of 50 or of

200 or of 300? i mean , does it 200 or of 300? i mean, does it really? i mean, ultimately we live in a system whereby if you win a vote in parliament, it doesn't matter if you win it by one vote or by 100 votes, you've won that vote. >> oh, well, i think it does matter, because if you look at governments that didn't have big majorities, look at them. you know, the coalition government in 2010 to 2015, they had to be very sensitive to the views of parliament and other mps, theresa may certainly did because she had no majority and that was obviously a very that was a bit too wearing because parliament had too much influence and used to hijack the agenda of government. but even bofis agenda of government. but even boris johnson, there were times, you know, when he had to, you know, change tack a little bit because he couldn't carry parliament with him and couldn't carry his own side with him. so there is a difference. if you've got a massive majority of 200 plus, which some of these polls are projecting for keir starmer, he really hasn't got to bother about the opposition. he hasn't even got to bother about his own backbenchers. he can pretty much do what he likes. based on the technocratic advice he might be getting from the civil service,

and that could become quite quickly, quite divorced from the demos from the public and what they want to see. it could be, although an argument in, favour of the labour party, certainly the moderate side of the labour party would be if there are lots and lots of labour mps, the leadership can ignore its more peculiar fringes. >> it can ignore what's known as the socialist campaign group in parliament, potentially a larger labour majority might be a more moderate government. >> well, there is that argument. but but but in essence, it means that the leadership are more empowered to do whatever they want because there will be a chunk of loyalist mps who'll just go along with it. at the end of the day, and it's much harder for people to, to, to launch rebellions. and sometimes that's a bad thing, though, because when governments try to draft legislation and i saw this evenin draft legislation and i saw this even in my time in government, they don't always get it right. and actually, parliament does have a very important scrutiny role to play to amend legislation and to change it. and if you can't get talented

former ministers able to muster a rebellion with 30 or 40 people and challenge the authority of the government, you don't get that kind of scrutiny of legislation. people just give up.and legislation. people just give up. and that's actually bad for your democracy. at the end of the day, it'll be very interesting. >> i mean, after years of campaigning, you, of course, were a key part of the vote leave campaign trying to restore the sovereignty of parliament. suddenly parliament is an institution. might become fairly irrelevant. have an issue of sort of rule by decree? >> yes . although parliament >> yes. although parliament always has a habit of bouncing back quite quickly eventually, and, you know, the thing is , and, you know, the thing is, having left the european union and we, you know, we had decades of really being told what to do in multiple spheres of policy by the eu, having now regained that control, we need governments. we need the civil service we need parliament itself to get much better at understanding the essence of the british constitution. it's quite a sort of idiosyncratic beast in some ways , like a sort of ways, like a sort of idiosyncratic british invention and you need to know what you're

doing to be able to drive it properly. and i think sometimes prime ministers in the past, of all parties have forgotten that. and they've started to become a bit too presidential. and we just don't have a presidential system in this country. >> and yet it has seemed like it's been a quite presidential election campaign. we've had head to head leaders debates on television, and we've also perhaps unusually, i think i'm right in saying that in modern history, both the leader of the conservative party and the labour party have been in parliament for less than a decade. the collective experience of both of these leaders in terms of parliamentary experience, is perhaps the lowest level we've ever seen, yes, i hadn't thought of it that way, but that is that is true. but the thing about our system, and i'd rather it that way, by the way, than what we see in the united states at the moment, where they both parties seem incapable of finding new talent and bringing that talent forward. the thing about the british system is it's not presidential. prime ministers only exist for as long as they have confidence of parliament

and their own party in particular. and as soon as they lose that, they're out. and they're out pretty quickly. and we're quite brutal at being able to throw one prime minister out and put a new one in, and i think that is a better system ultimately than having, you know, the, the system you've got in the us where you've almost got political dynasties and families , you know, the son of a families, you know, the son of a former president runs and so on. it's not a very healthy system, andifs it's not a very healthy system, and it's better, but it is also the case for someone like me who chose to stand down. yes. i see these elections now and i see these elections now and i see the same arguments coming around that i saw in 2005 and the same sorts of things being argued about same sorts of slogans being used. and i think it's probably was ever thus. >> well, you talk about hereditary systems of course, we are going to vote on the 4th of july, which seems perhaps apposite. it seems that whenever since the americans broke off from the british empire, they've sort of been trying to claw back some of those traditions. george eustice, thank you so much for joining us this evening. joining me now is the former labour party spokesman , james

party spokesman, james matthewson, because, james, it is fascinating hearing what the labour party have to say . all of labour party have to say. all of their communication is saying this is a close election. there are lots of undecideds. we're not going to win a big majority. nothing's taken for granted. and yet you look at where keir starmer is campaigning. he is a man busying himself in seats that were held by the conservatives even in 1997. today he was in buckinghamshire in a seat with a 25,000 majority. why are his words not matching his actions ? matching his actions? >> yeah, i mean, they know exactly what the strategy is here. and i mean, they are they are worried there is some concern, it's different in different parts of the country, tom. that's the problem because the coalition that labour needs to hold together, as we well know, is as well discussed in the media, is this complex coalition. and it's no more so at the moment than a coalition between those who are apathetic towards coming out and voting and those who are likely to turn out anyway. i've had friends

this week say to me, oh, it's okay though, because i've read it's going to be a stonking victory for them. i just don't need to come out or i'll go on that last minute holiday or whatever. it'll be fine. that's a real worry, especially to the labour party who need those votes to turn out because they're not counted yet. >> they're not counted yet . >> they're not counted yet. although, my goodness me, the polls would have to be mighty wrong. mighty wrong. it would have to be a perhaps an industry bankrupting error for a 20 point lead to vanish overnight. >> yeah, you're right, but that's people's intention. that's people who are going to come out and vote for it. if those people don't come out on the day, even if they've got the intention of supporting labour and voting labour, then you don't get the votes. it's as simple as that. so there is always the worry about turning them out and the operation from them out and the operation from the labour party around the country now the focus is and people are being asked in all the whatsapp groups and everything that i'm seeing to turn up and be ready for 5 am. to go as soon as you know things

open at 7 am. they've already got leaflets through the doors and that's in most of the seats across the country. >> now. we were speaking, of course, with george eustice a moment ago, who was talking about the dangers of majorities being too large of an overpowerful executive of riding roughshod over perhaps the amount of scrutiny that our system really does need. are there risks in what's being known as a supermajority ? known as a supermajority? >> there are. it's funny, though, because i don't remember george eustice being worried about that when boris johnson was on track for his supermajority . so it seems to me supermajority. so it seems to me a majority of 80 by historic standards is not is not even blair scale? yeah exactly. but still, you know, i mean, at that point, i don't think when you're on the winning side that you're that bothered particularly about how, you know, if you've won too much. let's be honest, i don't think it's something you ever hear politicians say. >> but you are right, because there was a conservative cabinet minister in 1983 who got into quite a bit of scandal by saying , we don't want to win too big a

majority. it makes for bad government. although he ate his words, on the night of the vote. >> absolutely. exactly as it comes to it, you know, everyone knows where their, their loyalties lie at the end of the day. but i think with the party, the labour party in particular, it's very interesting because people forget that the tory party is very streamlined in its mechanisms and in its internal workings. the labour party is very fractious. i mean, this will come as no surprise to anyone, but it's fractious because it's made up of different components. it's made up of the trade union element, it's made up of those those backers individually. it's made up of people with very different interests. the cooperatives all over the place, and they all have different opinions on different things. so keeping them together anyway is difficult. then you've got the electorate and of course that coalition that the labour party needs to win. so there are lots. so when they're in power, the more people the better to try and pass the legislation. but there will i know some of the candidates and i know there will be questions and there will be challenges to the leadership almost as soon as they try and pass legislation about different things. so, you know , all the things. so, you know, all the fun that we talk about, tom, all

the fun that we get to report on in politics, it will still be there. but i think the more votes for labour, the better chance of them passing progressive legislation. >> that's interesting of course, we spoke of boris johnson being in power for ten years. he managed three, seeing that conservative 29 coalition disintegrate has been perhaps too little remarked upon . but of too little remarked upon. but of course, voters are becoming more promiscuous across the board. so perhaps we're just for in an era of big, big swings either way. but james matthewson really appreciate your time this evening. thank you forjoining evening. thank you for joining us.thank evening. thank you for joining us. thank you to george two, coming up, reform uk held a trump style rally in birmingham yesterday attended by thousands. but how does the ascendancy of nigel farage compare to that of a who's had a of good news today in the united

welcome back to state of the nation. it's 8:21 now. yesterday, the reform party held a pre—election rally in birmingham with up to 5000 supporters in attendance in an event strangely reminiscent of one of donald trump's rallies across the pond, complete with pyrotechnics and cinematic music, the crowds heard from major reform party donor zia yusuf ann widdecombe and of course, the leader nigel farage. here's what he had to say about what could come after thursday's general election that starmer is going to win this election . going to win this election. >> but i believe this. what thursday is about, is the first step. it's the first major step that we take in an independent united kingdom to turn this around. britain is broken. britain needs reform. yes .

britain needs reform. yes. >> well, reforms event comes as the us presidential race begins to heat up. trump indeed held a rally in virginia following the astonishing first us presidential tv debate . but presidential tv debate. but let's get back to blighty for the moment. i'm joined now by my panel the moment. i'm joined now by my panel, the former labour mp stephen pound and the associate commons editor of the telegraph, moutaz ahmed, as well as gb news reporter adam cherry. because, adam, you were there at the rally in birmingham. what was it like, i think nigel farage put it as you didn't see it in that clip, but he put it as the thinking person's alternative to glastonbury. >> so that's how they see it, right? it was so loud. there's 5000 people there. the music was it was it was deafening. right, a lot of energy, a lot of passion. >> so even some fireworks. >> so even some fireworks. >> yeah, lots of fireworks, actually. lots of fireworks. very reminiscent of what they did in 2019 with the brexit party , i think the real story party, i think the real story actually is, as you said, is

this new kid on the block, this zia yusuf, who's a reform party donon zia yusuf, who's a reform party donor, not a candidate, not a candidate, which i asked nigel farage about afterwards. i said, why is this guy not a candidate? he's got 20 minutes on the stage, which is actually longer than ann widdecombe and richard tice. the only person who got longer was obviously nigel farage himself. right. so they clearly think this guy is a rising star. and his his speech was very powerful. it was well written, he charismatic and so on, they see him as a big player, whatever his role actually is, other than opening his wallet, he is clearly relevant to the future of the party, and it was interesting to see him wheeled out and given so much space. >> interesting. i'm looking at the clips. yeah, it's hard not to think this is an incredibly american style of campaign. it's all about boosting the base. it's all about that air war. and it's all about that air war. and isuppose it's all about that air war. and i suppose there's very little of the traditional british knocking on your neighbour's door.

>> no, not a lot of that. no. yeah it's all politics is showbiz. politics is theatre. that's what nigel farage loves. that's what nigel farage loves. that's his bread and butter. and he was obviously in his element last night, you know, whether that translates into what that means on thursday, i'm not sure. i'm not going to make any predictions about that, but certainly everyone who was there was happy to be there. and they only had three days to organise it and the place was packed. so that tells you something think. >> interesting. well, let's broaden this conversation out now. stephen, you of course, are a labour mp for many years. you know, the way that our democratic system works. it's not it's not about, well, you won enough elections, but it's not about how many votes you get across the country. that's that's what the air war provides. what the ground war provides. what the ground war provides is getting the votes in the right places. absolutely. getting 20% flat across the board wins, you know, seats. >> well, this is the conundrum that faces reform. reform could easily end up with 4 to 5 million votes. you know, i'm not exaggerating that. and they could end up with half a dozen seats at the best. so they've got a real problem about that.

and this is something the liberals and i don't want to give them credit. you know, they don't deserve it by and large. but you know, they hurl all their resources. it can be quite brutal because it means in certain places they don't they don't even show up. and i mean, don't even show up. and i mean, don't forget this presidential thing. labour tried this in 1992. do you remember neil kinnock in the don valley stadium? all right, all right. >> we're all right. >> we're all right. >> it didn't exactly work all that well for us. but i keep thinking to myself, is there any other politician in the country today who could have a queue of people around the block like that? i can't think of anyone who does. and i hope it was as good as it sounds. but somebody says apparently there was a great picture of putin descended at once. >> not true. that was so that was a different rally. that was the night before, i believe. yeah. so what's that all about? yeah, well, that was a prank by these led by donkeys people who are known for this. >> it wasn't. it wasn't? oh, yeah. >> no, it wasn't part of the official, infrastructure metres. what do you make of it all? it does seem very american, and it could be, it could win a great number of votes, but frankly, it doesn't seem particularly

targeted. >> it is american, and it has to be that way because they don't have these contact sheets that the other parties have created over decades. so they have to do this. their voters have to be more energised than labour and tory voters, because they're probably not going to get that knock on the door, will it work? we'll find out on thursday. but it's not easy to get 5000 people in a room. right. rishi sunak. struggles to get 100 employees in a room. yeah and then he ends up with one mocking him as, as does starmer. well exactly. but there's something happening with reform. it's bigger than nigel farage. there used to was incredibly impressive. and he can tell the sort of he can argue for cutting immigration without being accused of being racist, which is very important. right. >> he's a son of a they know that as well. >> he's a son of immigrants. his parents worked in the nhs. you know, he's paid millions in taxes, employed hundreds of people. there's not much you can throw at him. and it shows you that actually behind the big man, behind nigel farage, there is some real talent there. and this is a party that's probably going to be relevant if the tories don't get back into shape

in five years time with people like zir yusuf, hopefully running, we of course keep saying that this is quite american, but there is something else. >> it reminds me of someone who held a lot of rallies in the run up to the vote. people said it was 1930. people said it wasn't particularly targeted, and it was much mocked that this individual could get a lot of people to his rallies. but then he deprived theresa may of her parliamentary majority. of course, i'm talking about jeremy corbyn. in 2017, he held big rallies. he did drive a similar level of enthusiasm. >> i think it's a very, very different constituency, very, very different. i mean, the people sing singing at dastilbe, i mean, a great many of them were on the electoral register. they weren't inclined to vote anyway. it's very different sorts of people. what you've got here, these people who turning up at the farage rallies, are people who are registered voters and have voted in the past, and there are people who will continue to vote. and i think it is different. but i think the thing with jeremy corbyn, it was very, very different because the people saw quite quickly that this was, you know, the magic, grandpa, you can have, you know, broadband in your garden shed and all that, all the promises under the sun. i think with

farage, he's not made that mistake. he's painting with a very, very broad brush. yeah. and people are actually going for it at the moment. i mean, whether sunlight will be the best disinfectant and whether the scrutiny that he will come underin the scrutiny that he will come under in the next few weeks is going to make a difference. >> i don't know, i mean, scratch the surface of some of these reform policies. he's saying that an accounting change with regard to bank of england debt could raise 30 billion to spend. i'm not sure we would have found that if we i mean, maybe this requires a bit more fine tuning. well, yeah. >> no, i'm not sure about that. 30 billion. but just on the vote's point, even if he does win millions of votes in the wrong areas, that matters, because we know that on election night, nigel farage is going to come out and make the case for pr and if he wins proportional representation, proportional representation, proportional representation, and if he wins 5 million votes and gets two seats out of it, that's a bloody good argument. >> yeah. and i suppose i suppose adam, one of the things is nigel farage will be looking at being a voice in parliament, no matter what the makeup of the numbers of seats are. and ultimately he will know that having millions of votes, even if it's just the

one seat, that's an argument that probably means the tories are more likely to want to talk to him , to come to some sort of to him, to come to some sort of arrangement, because they want those millions of votes. >> yeah, well, this is part of his five year project, isn't it? as soon as we know the result on thursday, we move on to the next stage of this process for him. right. so and again, it depends on the makeup. i did ask him about this yesterday. i said, are you going to work with an ed davey who might be leader of the opposition? what is what is being a nuisance actually mean? he said he was going to be a nuisance if he's elected. what does that mean? a little bit coy on that, but i think we can assume that he will be targeting the one place where mps joint control is the tea room. >> you come to the house of commons tea room, labour at one end, the tories at the other, liberals, the dup. where's he going to sit? and how many tories are actually looking down the barrel of a gun who scraped in this time, are going to coalesce around this new kid on the block? >> well, we're going to hop across the pond now and talk through some of the latest developments in the us with hank sheinkopf, who's the democratic strategist, worked with the

likes of bill clinton and michael bloomberg. hank, thank you so much forjoining us. this evening, firstly, what exactly has gone on with the supreme court today offering donald trump some partial immunity over one of these court cases ? one of these court cases? >> what's going on is most americans won't like it. they'll see the court interfering in ways that it shouldn't with the prosecutors. there are some of the really deep trump like trump mix will say how wonderful . but mix will say how wonderful. but it's not good ultimately, for the way the court system and the and the separation of powers is supposed to work . supposed to work. >> and yet what it does do, as far as i understand it, is send a lot of more work down to lower courts. they have to decide what was official presidential business and unofficial presidential business and therefore delay a lot of these court attendances, delay a lot of these trials until after your presidential election . that's presidential election. that's got to help, trump in his bid to be re—elected. >> we don't know. but there is something in the air that helps donald trump no matter what he does. the debate last week, the court decision this week, the

rallies in the around the country for him, he's got something kind of magic that most of us have never seen . most of us have never seen. >> yeah, he once said, if i could, i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody, and people would still vote for me. and i think that thatis vote for me. and i think that that is what we call over here, a sort of teflon level of politics. but, what is exactly going on within the presidential race? because there was a lot of, talk, a lot of chatter about whether or not biden gets swapped out after that extraordinary debate performance. and yet then what we saw was a rebounding rally and obama rowing in behind biden. do you think he's going to stay going to continue to be the candidate? >> well, look, in american politics, as opposed to across the pond where you have a more rational way of doing things. sometimes you just can't get rid of somebody. the last time an american president remember the most powerful person in the world gave up the job voluntarily was in 1968, richard nixon was about to be arrested,

so he had no choice. but lyndon johnson said, i will neither seek nor will i accept the nomination of my party for president. united states , he president. united states, he walked away. just don't do that. look at american history. woodrow wilson couldn't function in the second term. ronald reagan was probably had alzheimer's throughout his second term. this is not a new phenomena. so are people looking at do they have more information than they've ever had about the president? the answer is yes. can he get back? is the question you should ask for example, from last week's debate. and the answer is likely no. >> wow. so you think that as a result, perhaps, of what people saw in that debate of the unedhed saw in that debate of the unedited joe biden, that he's going to lose this election , the going to lose this election, the good news for joe going to lose this election, the good news forjoe biden is that he's running against donald trump, with whom truth ofttimes takes a pass. >> the bad news forjoe biden is that he's running against himself in that debate . himself in that debate. >> it's a pretty profound thing to say . hank >> it's a pretty profound thing to say. hank sheinkopf >> it's a pretty profound thing to say . hank sheinkopf really to say. hank sheinkopf really appreciate your time, your expertise. this evening . thank expertise. this evening. thank you very much for joining us here on state of the nation.

now, coming up, britain's kafkaesque planning system keeps me up at night. but will sir keir starmer and rachel reeves their pledge reshape the ? will it make

next? welcome back to state of the nation. it's 8:37. and my name is tom harwood. now, some of you may be aware that one thing that keeps me up at night is the uk's planning system. it's one of the worst in the world, lacking in clear rules or predictable outcomes. and where there are rules such as building regulations, they forbid the best buildings. did you know it would be to illegal build this building today? why? large georgian style sash windows ? georgian style sash windows? have they've been effectively banned under building regulations 2021? part 0, which placed restrictions on openable windows being too large for fear

of people falling out of them? yes really? well, there's no doubt that the planning system , doubt that the planning system, alongside strict regulations like partto, play a large role in britain's housing crisis and in britain's housing crisis and in making our buildings uglier too. but the labour party might have a plan to try and tackle some of these problems over the weekend. sir keir starmer and rachel reeves suggested labour would slash the planning labyrinth and enable building on the green belt to ease the housing crisis. would it work? i'm joined now by my panel, former labour mp stephen pound and the associate comments editor at the telegraph, moutaz ahmed . stephen, we're going to ahmed. stephen, we're going to start with you in the break. you were telling me about your past as a senior planning officer. >> well , no, i as a senior planning officer. >> well, no, i was as a senior planning officer. >> well , no, i was the as a senior planning officer. >> well, no, i was the chair of the planning committee, chair of the planning committee, chair of the planning committee, chair of the planning committee. >> so it's all your fault. >> so it's all your fault. >> it's indeed it is. and i hold my hands up. but look, here's here's the problem, john. every single person wants to see more house building. they want to see more building. they want to see this sort of the planning regulations torn up. but every single person doesn't want it done to next them. and this is

the real problem. michael gove actually came up with some very, very sensible suggestions a few years ago when he was secretary of state in planning and local government, and talking about a lot of this land which we deify as green belt, it's almost sacrosanct. sacred land simply isn't. and we need to if we can either solve the housing problem or we can keep the countryside preserved in aspic, where nobody can ever move around for it. so it's one or the other. you can't have both. and as far as i'm concerned, what labour is talking about is an extension of the old brownfield site, the post—industrial sites, but also parts around our cities, which quite frankly, we can build on and we should build on. don't forget previous generations built welwyn garden city, they built welwyn garden city, they built letchworth, they built the garden cities, you know, and by and large it worked pretty well. >> and yet this is an incredibly contentious issue. of course, people feel very, very strongly about whether things are built particularly near them. if there's an adequate infrastructure going alongside it, how do places cope? the labour party yet hasn't spelled out all that much detail. >> yes. which is potentially a positive if you want more homes

built because this grey belt stuff, they're calling it the grey belt. what is it? it's car parks in the green belt. it's not going to build a million homes. you know, their ambition is to build 300,000, which isn't much more than what we built dunng much more than what we built during the pandemic, which makes you wonder if there's a secret plan somewhere that will come out the day after the election where, you know, they changed the planning system. they tried to do the things that robert jenrick tried to do, as housing secretary, it's actually an argument for small labour majority. also, why is that? because if they win, you know, a majority of 200, you'll end up with lots of labour mps in former tory seats where there's lots of green space, who will lobby for fewer homes if there's a small majority where predominantly mps are coming from urban areas, then perhaps that helps him not run roughshod over the greenbelt, but just take a little part of it. but here's an interesting thing. >> one of the problems we have

in planning in london at the moment is that i've seen 4 or 5 big developments, which cannot be allowed because there simply isn't enough power in the national grid for them. i can think of two big ones at the present time where the electricity people come back and said, we cannot provide you. >> isn't this interesting? because infrastructure, because it's because this isn't just housing. >> yeah , this is planning. yeah. >> yeah, this is planning. yeah. it's not just houses that you can't build very easily in certain areas. it's also grid infrastructure. it's also data centres. it's also lots of different elements of our economy. and, and so perhaps the labour party might be radical here, but, but whenever a government has tried to be radical here, i mean, nick boles , when he was housing minister in the coalition government, tried to get it done. he was defeated, then boris johnson, of course, tried to do it with robert jenrick. he was defeated. liz truss even partially tried to do it within her investment zones. they had planning deregulation within them. and what happened? well charities like the rspb came out and said, you're going to destroy bird habitats so you can't build anything. i mean, ultimately there are going to be big

interest groups that come up against starmer here. >> the best and most effective prime minister we've ever had in this country when it comes to actually grasping the nettle, this was harold macmillan. harold macmillan built more houses than any other prime minister in the history of this country , and he actually laid country, and he actually laid the groundwork for the garden cities. and what a marvellous idea they were. you know, stevenage were the great places . stevenage were the great places. so we can actually do that if the will is there. but somehow we have to get through this. i mean, i hate to use the word nimby because it's such a cliche, but that is the reality. >> but hang on, but hang on, stephen, and i'll bring mr sinner because the issue necessarily isn't people objecting to local development within their area. i mean, that's rational. that's in the self—interest of people, their own perceived self—interest. and it happens in every country around the world. the issue particularly is in the united kingdom, we give more power to these veto players than any other country does. it's much more easy to prevent development here than it is elsewhere. so perhaps it shouldn't be about smashing the nimbys, but about rebalancing the veto system.

>> exactly. and you have to take more power centrally. you know it. the government should be able to build whatever it wants in the national interest anywhere. >> hang on, hang on, hang on. what if what if a newt might lose its habitat ? surely we lose its habitat? surely we can't have a new nuclear power station. >> crested newt? >> crested newt? >> i'm sorry, newt. sorry, but look, if you go to one of these council meetings, you realise that the you're right. the bureaucracy is the problem. but it doesn't just allow people to object, it encourages them to object. and it's all geared towards objections, i don't know how you change that , but it how you change that, but it starts with the government sort of overriding some of that , some of overriding some of that, some of overriding some of that, some of that. >> and yet and yet, stephen, stephen, what the labour party is saying is that it will reclassify some areas of the green belt and centrally say there's going to be a new town here and a new town here, although they're not telling us where those new towns will be, i might add. but they're not saying they're going to change the system. >> well, at the moment the system is actually fairly robust. if you if we're doing a planning application to a council and they don't approve it within a set time, it goes

through automatically. so there is a lot of regulations in place. and by and large i would swear this, this is planning in this country is not corrupt. you know, i mean, i was 16 years, i was on the council in ely and i never saw anybody take a back hand. i just don't think it is corrupt and simply it isn't. but, but and here's the real question. how do we actually square the circle if i and you and i went on to a doorstep and said to somebody, we're going to actually take away your right to object to somebody building a couple of doors down from you, we're going to have it devolved to the mayor of london or to the secretary of state. they would not give you their vote. so this is a problem. on the one hand, you've got the shibboleth of democracy. you're going to say everybody should have the right to object to their next door neighbours sash windows. on the other hand, you're saying actually, no, don't stand in the way of progress. we want we want to have proper flameproof pippin windows. >> well, there we go. it's an intractable problem. we're going to have to leave it there because we've got to. we've got to get to france. yes. after the break, we'll be going live to paris. in wake of that election result that has

welcome back to state of the nation. at 8:47. now, in the first round of the snap parliamentary elections in france , marine le pen's populist france, marine le pen's populist national rally party made a big gain, winning 33.4% of the vote in the highest turnout in a parliamentary election since 1997. the left wing coalition new popular front came second with 30, and emmanuel macron's centrist together alliance came third. on 21, well following the results, president macron and the other left wing leaders have urged for tactical voting in the second round of voting that starts on july the 7th to prevent national rally from gaining an outright majority and the prime ministership . so what the prime ministership. so what does that mean for the future of european politics? well joining me live from paris is the journalist at the times, david chazan. and david, thank you so

much for joining chazan. and david, thank you so much forjoining us. firstly, tell us what this means for france of course, this doesn't threaten emmanuel macron's position as president, but it might make him fairly impotent. >> yes, that's right, because regardless of who wins the election and forms the next government , president macron can government, president macron can stay in office until 2027. he would retain control over foreign policy and defence, but domestic policy would go to the government. now it looks at the moment like the populist right, the national rally are set to form the next government and the prime minister presumably would be marine le pen's protege, jordan bardella . jordan bardella. >> now, how does this candidate, however, the national rally. >> sorry. carry on. >> sorry. carry on. >> no, sorry. i think there's a bit of a delay on the line, but, i did want to ask , how on earth

i did want to ask, how on earth do we get from around 33% of the vote to then forming a majority in the parliament? because of course, the system is two rounds. you need to win over 50% of the vote in the second round to, to, to win a seat, it's a it's a big jump to go from 33 to 50. >> yeah. it is a big jump. and it's unclear that the national rally will be able to do it. they're trying to persuade conservatives from the republicans party, the traditional mainstream centre right, equivalent to the tories, more or less to team up with them and help them win an absolute majority, whether that will work or not is unclear. but the other possibility is that the other possibility is that the national rally rally could form a minority government. now, they've indicated that they'll be unwilling to do that because a minority government could easily be toppled by a vote of

no confidence if the other parties banded together. but the national rally may change their minds when push comes to shove. this will be their first chance at forming a government. and the first time that france has had a government of this political colour. call it hard, right? populist right? whichever label you want to give it, since the second world war. so this is a huge change in french politics. >> and yet what people from the national rally say is that this is no longer the same party that was led by marine le pen's father. it's no longer even called the national front. it's now the national rally , to what now the national rally, to what extent has this party moderated ? extent has this party moderated? >> well, marine le pen spent the last 30 years toning down its rhetoric, softening its policies, making it into a party that's palatable not to just extreme voters on the fringes.

but middle of the road voters as well . so she's but middle of the road voters as well. so she's changed it but middle of the road voters as well . so she's changed it from well. so she's changed it from what was essentially a protest movement under her father, jean—marie, who was a holocaust denier several times convicted of racist hate speech . and so of racist hate speech. and so the party has really changed its tone. however, critics argue that under the new image, the cudduer that under the new image, the cuddlier look that she has given the party remain policies that are deeply eurosceptical. marine le pen herself has a history of sympathy for vladimir putin. opposition to nato, and critics say all that is still there. but marine le pen herself rejects the label of far right, which she's often given in france, and says this is completely different. and if you look at some of the people who are now voting for her, you're getting

people who formerly voted for the centre right, but also working class voters who would traditionally have voted socialist or even communist, who now feel that the left has let them down, and people who just think, look , france has tried think, look, france has tried the left, they've tried the right, they've tried the centre with emmanuel macron . why not with emmanuel macron. why not try another big party that's never had a shot of government? >> well, goodness me, we are fascinating. second round to see if they can keep that momentum up and actually what it means for europe afterwards. but david chazan, thank you so much for joining us. journalist at the times. of course, speaking live from paris. well, that's it from me. this evening. up next is ben leo covering for patrick christys and ben. what's coming up on the show ? up on the show? >> hello, tom. cracking show. thank you. lots to come in the next two hours, not least a big migrant exclusive at the top of

the ten hour involving none other. none other. sorry, they're not our friends . care they're not our friends. care for calais. also, kelvin mackenzie on the show , former mackenzie on the show, former lib dem mp and party chair mark oaten and did you see the shenanigans at glastonbury over the weekend? we're going to get stuck into that all to come. >> goodness me. sounds like a huge show. looking forward to it. but it all remains for me to do is to say thank you for sticking with us through our election, and indeed the election, and indeed the election across the channel. two it seems like we're having election fever here, and we're having it all week to do. stay with us on gb news. i'll be back with us on gb news. i'll be back with you tomorrow at 8 pm. but next it's the weather and by the way, it's sunny in somerset . way, it's sunny in somerset. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news >> good evening. here's your latest gb news weather forecast brought to you by the met office. looking ahead to tomorrow, there will be some showery rain around but also some bright sunny spells. but first thing for some it is going

to be a bit cloudy and a bit damp because of a frontal system that has already pushed its way in from the northwest and is currently making its way south eastwards as we go overnight. so eastern southern parts of england likely to have quite a bit of cloud and some drizzly rain as we go through the night and head towards dawn tomorrow. elsewhere, some clear spells mixed in a few showers possible, but temperatures really aren't going to drop. a huge amount, particularly in the east and southeast where we have that thicker cloud. it is going to be a pretty mild start to the day tomorrow, but like i said, a cloudy, damp, drizzly start here further north, a bit of a brighter start , particularly brighter start, particularly across eastern parts of scotland. a good deal of sunshine early on here. further west we will see some showery rain pushing its way in and that's going to turn a bit more persistent, a bit more widespread as we go through the day across northern ireland, much of northern england through the morning. it's looking mostly dry, some bright sunny spells. watch out for a few showers across parts of wales, perhaps northwest england, and then a real west east split across much of central southern england .

of central southern england. with that cloud and that drizzly rain i mentioned across eastern parts. most of that, though, will clear away as we go through the day. and so it is going to turn a little bit drier and brighter here. further north, a slightly different story. yes, there will be some sunny breaks around, but i am expecting some showery rain to push its way in across parts of scotland, northern england and northern ireland. and some of this could be on the heavy side. temperatures around average for the time of year, just about scraping into the low 20s towards the south. wednesday looks like a pretty wet day for many of us. the rain may not be especially heavy, but it's going to be fairly widespread. most places likely to see some wet weather at times could even be some low cloud, some hill fog, and some strong, blustery winds to watch out for as well. for many, thursday looks like it will be a brighter day, but could be quite windy for some of us before more rain on friday. bye bye! >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb. news >> it's 9 pm. i'm ben leo for in patrick christys tonight. >> i've actually filmed this. i've filmed on the 12 mile median line. people throwing their iphones into the sea. >> we have a shocking migrant exclusive for you coming up. plus . dear. oh, dear. it off on plus. dear. oh, dear. it off on the middle class lefties at glastonbury and i'm fighting hard for every vote. >> i don't take a single place or person for granted . or person for granted. >> senior tories are reportedly plotting leadership campaigns already. so has the party given up completely on rishi sunak? also tonight ? liberal democrat, also tonight? liberal democrat, the lib