. i'm tom >> good evening. i'm tom harwood, bringing you state of the nation . tonight. fears have the nation. tonight. fears have risen that thousands of postal votes across 90 plus constituencies may not arrive in time. the government blames the royal mail, and the royal mail blames the government. but will thousands of postal voters be disenfranchised .7 and is the disenfranchised? and is the postal voting system now simply too big? find out shortly . too big? find out shortly. meanwhile, reform uk has suffered yet another candidate backing the tories, this time claiming the majority of the party's candidates are racist, misogynistic and bigoted . now misogynistic and bigoted. now labour's migrants plan has faced criticism for not being particularly different to what is being pursued already, save for the fact they intend to scrap the planned rwanda deportations. plus, the reform channel 4 racism row plots thickens, with a gb news exclusive that suggests there was more to the investigation than meets the eye. state of the nafion than meets the eye. state of the nation starts now .

nation starts now. we'll also be discussing an astonishing poll from survation labour on almost 500 seats out of 650. i'll be joined by my panel of 650. i'll be joined by my panel. former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie, and the pr consultant stella santacruz. that's all coming up after the news with polly middlehurst . news with polly middlehurst. >> tom, thank you and good evening to you. well, the top story as you've been hearing, the electoral commission is having to reassure people that their postal vote will be counted even if sent off as late as tomorrow with just two days to go until the general election. there are claims now voters in some areas still haven't received their voting cards. however, royal mail hit back today, insisting they had

no backlog . but the labour no backlog. but the labour leader, sir keir starmer, refused to rule out recounts if some postal votes hadn't arrived. >> well, look, we cross each bndge >> well, look, we cross each bridge as we get to it. i am concerned about the delays and i think what needs to happen now is everybody needs to pull together to make sure the ballot papers get where they're needed so that people can exercise their democratic right to vote. so that's where my focus is at the moment. >> sir keir starmer now there's been praise today for an incredibly brave hospital patient who prevented what police are calling utter devastation when he managed to stop a nurse launching an islamic state inspired suicide attack at a hospital in leeds, 28 year old mohammed farooq was arrested outside saint james's hospital with a pressure cooker bomb in january last year , bomb in january last year, sheffield crown court heard today how the self—radicalized islamist terrorist had immersed himself in an extremist ideology and went to the hospital where

he worked to kill as many nurses as possible. he was found guilty of preparing terrorist acts . the of preparing terrorist acts. the family of a baby girl who was a victim of a former nurse, lucy letby, say they're heartbroken, angry and numb. the 34 year old has been found guilty of the attempted murder of child k in february 2016, after she dislodged an air tube from the two hour old baby girl. the 34 year old is already in the uk, is already the uk's most prolific child killer and is serving 14 whole life sentences for the murders of seven babies and trying to kill six others. back to politics now and the chairman of reform uk has accused the conservatives of planting fake candidates to discredit reform, in a move he claims is desperate, toxic and will be punished by voters at the ballot box. richard tice comments come after reform candidate george david defected

to the conservative. she's accused some of her former colleagues of having racist, misogynistic and bigoted views. however, miss david said she didn't believe reforms senior leadership is racist in response, reform said it was strange that she chose not to bnng strange that she chose not to bring up any of her concerns with the party's leadership before publicly trashing her colleagues in this way. former dup leader sir jeffrey donaldson is set to face seven more historical sex offence charges when he appears in court tomorrow. northern ireland's longest serving mp is now accused of 18 offences in total. the 61 year old has previously said he'll deny all of them, as has his wife, who is facing another separate allegation . and another separate allegation. and in the united states , president in the united states, president biden's received his first pubuc biden's received his first public call from a democrat in congress urging him to step down from the electoral race. lloyd doggett has insisted his decision to announce his strong

reservations wasn't taken lightly. there have been questions about the president's future in november's election , future in november's election, following his poor performance in last week's us tv debate against the former president, donald trump. and it comes as joe biden is planning a meeting with democratic governors tomorrow. he says to reassure them that he is of sound body and mind . those are the latest and mind. those are the latest gb news headlines for now, i'm polly middlehurst. i'll have more in an hour. see you then . more in an hour. see you then. >> for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . forward slash alerts. >> welcome back to state of the nafion >> welcome back to state of the nation i'm tom harwood. now thousands of postal votes across more than 90 constituencies are reportedly yet to arrive on people's doormats. political people's doorm ats. political leaders people's doormats. political leaders have been responding to

these concerning reports today . these concerning reports today. >> it's right that the royal mail have said that they will look at any concerns where they're raised because obviously we want to make sure everyone can vote because this is an important election. >> i am concerned about the delays and i think what needs to happen now is everybody needs to pull together to make sure the ballot papers get where they're needed so that people can exercise their democratic right to vote. i'm really concerned, and we need urgently to look at this, a number of local authorities are opening their town halls to make sure people can get them. we obviously need to push royal mail for these concerning reports have led to fears that particularly elderly and more infirm voters may be disenfranchised. >> it's all led to the postal affairs minister, kevin hollinrake, hitting out at royal mail for not recruiting the right number of people to deliver a surge in postal votes to those who wanted them. while

the royal mail says we remain confident that postal votes handed to us will, on time be delivered prior to polling day, the telegraph reports that the snap election might well have increased pressure on the system to count . in increased pressure on the system to count. in the increased pressure on the system to count . in the election to count. in the election completed postal votes must have reached councils by 10:00 on polling day. a review of the whole process is now widely expected. once this election is oven expected. once this election is over. but all of this raises a question. there are simply too many brits vote by post in the united kingdom, as in most american states, canada, germany , austria, poland and switzerland. but just those major countries, voters can request postal ballots on demand. but that's it. just those countries in green on this map. greater conditions must be met in every other country on earth. in australia, postal votes are only available to those who are unable to attend a polling booth due to limited criteria. in norway, sweden and finland, postal votes are only

available to those who are abroad , and amid concerns around abroad, and amid concerns around fraud , france banned postal fraud, france banned postal voting outright back in 1975, so tonight we ask the question is widespread postal voting with no assessments or conditions needed to be met? simply more trouble than it's worth. well, i'm delighted to be joined now by the acting editor of conservativehome, henry hill. henry postal votes are a controversial issue , and this controversial issue, and this election there may well be more postal votes cast than any pnon >> yeah, and that really is in relative terms , a really recent relative terms, a really recent a recent development in british democracy. the real take off was dunng democracy. the real take off was during new labour because in the 1997 general election, i believe about 640, 700 and something thousand people cast postal ballots . and by 2010 that was ballots. and by 2010 that was well over 6 million people. and it creates several distortive effects on our democracy. one,

there's the logistical issue, especially when you have a snap election like this. there's a lot of moving parts. people have to get their applications in, have them approved . councils have them approved. councils have them approved. councils have to pass that on. they have to be posted out. lots of things that can go wrong. but it also means that millions of people have cast their ballot before half the campaign, a general election campaign is conducted and you think about having leaders debates . you think about leaders debates. you think about the developments, all the scrutiny that happens during an election campaign. millions of voters have cast their ballot before that comes out. so i think that's distressing. but the most important thing is there's a reason that we fought so hard to have the secret ballot in this country, which is that you go into, you go into a booth, no one else is there, and you can vote for whoever you like at home voting, which is what postal voting is it is where most voter fraud takes place. as i understand , far more place. as i understand, far more than there is in polling stations, despite the fact the government brought in voter id, and it also means you can be coerced . if someone's coerced. if someone's controlling you, they can influence how you vote. >> and there have been allegations that this has happened time and time again in parts of the country. tower hamlets is one, where there had been actually confirmed cases of

abuse of this system . abuse of this system. >> yeah, absolutely. and that shouldn't be surprising because you are simply having your vote posted out to you. you open it in your own home. if you open it and there's no guarantee that you're filling it in in secret, there's no guarantee that you're not being subject to pressure. and there's absolutely no guarantee that that no one will will know how you're casting your ballot. so and because it's free, because anyone can apply for it, there's no conditions. you can then be pressured into applying for a postal vote in the first place. if someone was so inclined. so there are all kinds of reasons that i think that postal votes, at least the way that we do them, they're just convenience culture. yeah fine. if you're overseas, if you're a soldier posted overseas, if you've got genuine mobility impairments, it's absolutely right that our democracy is accessible to those people. but the fact that anyone can do it just because they won't be around on polling day. yeah, and undermines our system in this way. i don't think that's worth it. >> you know what? i've got to make a confession, henry. i've got a postal vote. i. i probably don't need it. i probably don't need it. i actually haven't

filled it out yet. so i will be going to the postal to the to the polling booth in person, on thursday. but, i do think i do think that you make a really, really good point there about just how easy it is, just how few conditions are placed on this, well , let's talk about this, well, let's talk about something else now, because a new poll has dropped in the last few minutes. and this is a phone poll by survation. not many of polls are conducted by ringing up households these days. most are done online. so this is a much more comprehensive poll . much more comprehensive poll. and look at the results. 484 seats for the labour party. just 64 for the conservatives. that's only three ahead of the liberal democrats, who are on 61 now. this is a phone poll of 34,558 people. the scale of this poll is hard to overstate. it is based on the mrp projection modelling that was so accurate last time around. and what a picture that shows us. well, i'm joined now by the former labour

treasury minister, sir stephen timms and sir stephen. i just want to get your reaction. looking at that picture, the country has never looked more red. >> well i obviously very much welcome the support for labour party that that poll and others are showing. i'm rather sceptical about the detail of, of this one. my conversations with people on the doorstep haven't suggested either. quite the scale of collapse of the conservative vote, that this poll is suggesting, or the scale of support for the lib dems ehhen of support for the lib dems either. so. but who knows? you know, we'll we'll find out in the early hours of friday morning. i do think the labour party, my colleagues who've been responsible for running the campaign, have done a good job, it's been well organised. there's been lots of enthusiasm and energy in the campaign and people have been wanting to contribute and to help. and i also think there's a really strong sense across the country. it is time for a change. we must

now have a change. and i'm hoping that that sense and, and enthusiasm for change will certainly be reflected in the, the poll results when they come in on thursday night, friday morning. >> it is astonishing to look at it on a map right there in front of us, but it does match the constituencies where sir keir starmer has been visiting. the deepest blue, most rural territory. he was in buckinghamshire yesterday . buckinghamshire yesterday. buckinghamshire. these are majorities approaching 30,000 conservative majorities, supposed to be the safest seats in the country, but i do want to ask you, because every single poll suggests that the majority will be enormous. is that healthy for democracy to have virtually no opposition in the house of commons? >> well, as i say, i'm rather sceptical about the about that particular claim, and, you know, i am sure that there are some people who would like everybody to think this is in the bag for

the labour party. i don't, i don't think it is, i think people , if they want change and people, if they want change and my sense is people overwhelmingly do want change. they need to go out and for vote change. on thursday. my expectation would be actually, there'll be more conservative mps than that poll indicates, possibly not quite as many lib dems , but we'll have to wait and dems, but we'll have to wait and see. i, you know, the government, the conservative government over 14 years has not done a good job. and i think it it is the function of democracy to punish those who do a bad job, and i think we very likely will see that. but that's, that's what democracy is, is for. and i hope that's what we will see on, on polling day. >> goodness , man, what a >> goodness, man, what a punishment it will be. but stephen timms, to on an issue now because you used to be a treasury minister, you'll have seen the way that the labour shadow treasury has been working

and perhaps keeping some things under wraps. only two years ago, rachel reeves was talking about raising taxes on capital gains, on wealth that was unearned. in in rachel reeves words, people who got their incomes through stocks and shares, all of these extra taxes that used to be promoted by rachel reeves by sir keir starmer as recently as the labour party conference in 2021, pamphlets being written on this , pamphlets being written on this, they've gone very quiet about these same issues in the run up to the election. surely surely we are going to see those taxes raised . raised. >> well, the manifesto is very clear about the things that we are committing to do in the short term, and it's also very clear about how they're going to be paid for. there will be tax rises, there will be the imposition of vat on school fees for example, and that's how we will fund the immediate commitments that we have made in

the longer term. what meeting our commitments and our aspirations is going to require success in getting the economy moving properly again, we had the catastrophe of the liz truss budget , brexit the catastrophe of the liz truss budget, brexit hasn't worked out in the way that we were promised it would. there are all these economic difficulties which have limited and reduced the size of the economy and that's a i think, a large part of the reason for the conservative failure over the last few years. we've got to put those right . we've got to put those right. and if we do, the economy will start growing again and performing properly, and we'll be able to bring about the changes that all of us want to see. the improvements in the national health service, the commitments to improving housebuilding, tackling the housing crisis and tackling child poverty and so on. but we do need to get the economy

moving again in order to be able to fund those aspirations well. >> so stephen timms, thank you very much for joining >> so stephen timms, thank you very much forjoining us. i know you've got to go, but thank you for your time. henry hill was in the studio listening to all of this, and henry just firstly, your reaction to that extraordinary poll? >> well, it's going to be an exciting election night for conservative home, isn't it? i think the, the interesting thing about this is going to be finding out which pollsters have built the best model , because an built the best model, because an mrp, what an mrp really means is that instead of simply applying national swing to the results of the last election, they actually try and do a calculation in each individual seat. yougov got it bang on, as you say in 2017, but an mp is only good as the assumptions in your model. and so that's why we've got people doing msps that have such wildly different results. >> all of them show a bigger defeat than 1990. >> no. oh yeah. no, that's not in doubt at this point i don't think. i mean, but there is a world of difference between 60 seats and 150 seats. >> right. but this one, which is of course, a phone poll, shows just three seats difference between the conservatives and

the liberal democrats. i mean, we could really be seeing a situation where ed davey could become leader of the opposition orindeed become leader of the opposition or indeed the conservatives don't have enough mps to fill all the shadow ministerial posts. you've got to have around 94 or 96 mps just to shadow the government , and they won't have enough. >> yeah, it's if that happens, it will be an absolutely extraordinary watershed moment in british politics. i don't think the liberal democrats are up to being this country's right wing party. in the long run. so it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. personally, again, based on what i'm hearing from campaigners on the ground, my expectation is more in the region of 80 to 110 seats than than down there, which at least makes them the official opposition. but it will be. i mean, it'll be. yeah i know. right. but that's the poll. that's the bar set by your poll. yeah, but it will be a historic humiliation if they can't staff a shadow, a shadow team really, really profound stuff. >> henry hill, thank you very much for joining >> henry hill, thank you very much forjoining us here on state of the nation. now, after the break, we'll be discussing the break, we'll be discussing the reform party's defections to the reform party's defections to the conservatives following allegations of if you

want to hear widdecombe's take on

welcome back to state of the nafion welcome back to state of the nation . at 8:22. now a second. nation. at 8:22. now a second. reform uk candidate has defected to the conservative party amid allegations of racism and misogyny in the party. gyorgy david, when announcing her decision to leave reform, said that the party and its senior leadership are not racist, but did claim that many of the candidates were indeed racist, misogynistic and bigoted. miss david encouraged all of her fellow patriots or patriots if we're english to endorse the conservative party instead, it comes as candidate liam booth isherwood, who also left reform uk over the weekend, said there was a significant moral issue within the party while responding to miss david's tory endorsement, a reform uk spokesman said they were very

disappointed with her course of action, adding that miss david was a last minute addition to their candidate list. well joining me now is the former conservative minister and reform uk spokesperson ann widdecombe . uk spokesperson ann widdecombe. and, it's not a good look . and, it's not a good look. >> well, i'm not sure because you were breaking up then, what you're saying is not a good look, but what i would say is this particularly about georgie david, she says, you know, the great majority of candidates are racist and misogynist. she won't have met the great majority of candidates. in fact, she will have met very few, so i don't think she can sensibly say that, i also we expected this and it happened to us in the brexit party. right at the end, four members suddenly, mysteriously defected back to the conservatives. we expected that some of this would go on at the end. there has also been tremendous pressure from the tory party on individual candidates, to, to stand down, stand aside, and we therefore

knew something like this was going to happen. but if you actually look at her statements and challenge them, as i hope somebody will, how many of our candidates as she met, well, she might have been reading the same reports that i've been reading , reports that i've been reading, where reform uk candidates have said some pretty extraordinary things. >> there was a candidate there was a candidate in scotland who appeared in the times this morning who had called jk rowling a female, a misogynistic insult, beginning with a b called the same of just about every woman politician in the country, and called both david attenborough and myself the c word . word. >> well, that is not acceptable, you know , nobody's saying that you know, nobody's saying that is acceptable, but you're taking the words of one candidate and there are several more candidates that you could pick on, including candidates that we've expelled and suspended and all the rest of it, but what you know , we had a vetting know, we had a vetting procedure. we had to find a large number of candidates in a

very short space of time . all very short space of time. all parties have had problems of one sort or another. many of them have had problems with sitting mps, let alone candidates . now, mps, let alone candidates. now, the crucial thing is how we deal with that . with that. >> i think that is a fair point, and i think it's one that many people could understand. i'm not sure . however, that is a point sure. however, that is a point that sits out of line with what this defector had to say. she herself said she doesn't think that nigel farage or the leadership of reform uk is racist, but that there are problems with these candidates. in fact, that goes in line with what richard tice and nigel farage have said that you hired a vetting company that didn't do its job. many of these candidates are duds , and that's candidates are duds, and that's absolutely true, the vetting company did not do the job that we expected it to do, and it failed to find things that the media and the opposition parties have found very, very quickly, but that's a separate issue. i think the main issue is our message, and that message is

being put out by very, very good and loyal and decent candidates and loyal and decent candidates and let me say this, i've just come off a nine day tour of the country. i've met candidates up and down the country north, south—east, west, and i haven't met any of these horrors. and some of them i would be very, very proud had i been a conservative, to be in parliament with them, and i would be very proud to see them in parliament representing us. so, you know, i'm not denying there are some bad apples. nobody's denying that. but it doesn't apply to what miss david called the vast majority. >> well , ann called the vast majority. >> well, ann widdecombe really appreciate your time this evening. thank you very much for joining us here on state of the nation. now i'm joined by my panel nation. now i'm joined by my panel, the former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie, and the pr consultant and former labour aide stella kiddoo, kelvin, we'll start with you. i've always found it a peculiar argument for a party in the middle of an election campaign

to say lots of our candidates are not vetted properly. i mean, what are they trying to say? >> well, i don't agree with that point, because after all, reform have put up , i don't know how have put up, i don't know how many. 600. yes. >> near enough. >> near enough. >> 650. and basically they probably couldn't have known what what what what people that they had among them. and when i look at, for instance, the labour party, for instance, they've nick brown has suddenly disappeared out of newcastle . disappeared out of newcastle. there's the bloke from hove who's appeared on these kinds of shows. right. suddenly he disappears. there's lots of stuff going on. >> he tried to disappear diane abbott, but that didn't quite work. >> no, but my point really is, look, i've known, farage now for the thick end of 30 odd years, right? the one thing she did get right? the one thing she did get right was he's not a racist. this is definitely not a racist, lee's definitely not a racist. so what you have got is you might have a few bad apples there. thank god we have a free press in our country exposing it. i'm very much in favour of it. i'm very much in favour of it. i'm very much in favour of it . and so, you know, i would

it. and so, you know, i would expect this to happen and does happen. look, look at some of the conservatives, actual mps who've been sitting there for five, ten, 20 years. suddenly they turn out to be this. they turn out to be that. they turn out to be the other. i would not take this seriously. i don't agree with that lady. and i agree with that lady. and i agree with that lady. and i agree with the point that was made by by miss widdecombe was the. it's the vast majority aspect. there will be some duds and bad apples in there. and thank god for our journalism that finds them out. >> now, stella, if we're going to believe some of these polls, the labour party is going to elect a lot of people that perhaps it didn't expect to elect, on on thursday, it could be the case that the next parliament has quite a lot of duds from the labour party, too. >> let's hope not. but the labour party has had quite a lot more time, i guess has been preparing for some time. i'm certain that there will be whenever there is a change of a lot of mps, whenever there is, there are a lot of new mps. you do have all certain kinds of scandals. i cannot tell you. i

do not expect to see any of that from, the labour party, but certainly what i can say is that the labour party has has always taken, the process of selecting parliamentary candidates a lot more seriously and has a lot higher standards in terms of the process and the vetting . and process and the vetting. and also who gets a say in terms of the local constituency that they are going to represent. then the reform party. and what i would say about the reform party is i struggle to have sympathy with nigel farage when he says that in five years time he wants to be prime minister, he wants to be prime minister, he wants to be running to be prime minister. he keeps on giving us this line about reform being a start up party, which what it is basically is an excuse and a justification for them doing a very poor, lousy job. well, this is not a party that is ready not just to be the official opposition, but to go anywhere near the government. >> tell them , what do you make that? >> well, my point is, if it is

true that he's going to be the prime minister in five years time, which actually would be a phenomenal thing to happen. and actually, i think i would basically applaud it really if, if, if the tories don't turn out to have anybody of any, any note to have anybody of any, any note to do it in five years time, the research into who is going to stand in a reformed tory kind of administration will be a lot better than literally handing it out to somebody at the last moment and say, have a look, have a look at their background and hope that they're telling the truth. so i do buy your point. the conservatives and labour should have a lot less dudsinit labour should have a lot less duds in it than potentially the reform. and in five years time, they definitely will. >> and yet what we could see, what we could face is a parliament where well, according to this latest poll, there could be seven reform mps to the 67 i think would be a spectacular result the previous. >> how do we know whether they're duds or not? the previous survation actually one of them said that there would actually be in the mid—teens. incredibly now seven i would say

guarantees farage and the conservatives will be together in some form within a couple of years . so that would be in some form within a couple of years. so that would be an astonishing result. but we're forgetting about the real astonishing result, 484 labour mps . i honestly, everybody out mps. i honestly, everybody out there hold your head in your hand. what are we going to have if you've got any money, by the way, get it out of the country at 100 miles an hour. the whole country is going to collapse. >> blimey. well, do stay with us. we're going to be talking about the labour party and policy next on small boats. but before we do that, if you're interested in who's standing in hove and paulsdale, here's the list. sophie broadbent for the green party, carleen deal for the conservative party martin hugo hess for the reform uk party, peter kyle for the labour party, tanush camara is an independent. michael wang is the liberal democrat . now coming up, liberal democrat. now coming up, labour's immigration policy has come under fire by leading experts. but

what are they actually planning to do about those small boats

next? welcome back to state of the nation. at 8:35. now at the main parties. being honest with you about immigration, both main political parties have promised to bring immigration down. but if you are hoping for a government to take seriously the issue with bold action, you might be disappointed. the tories have promised to devolve the legal migration targets to the legal migration targets to the migration advisory committee, which will then be, submit a proposed cap to be voted on by parliament, deferring such an important decision to yet another non—democratic institution is hardly inspiring. meanwhile, labour's plans, particularly around illegal immigration, are under fire as well. madeleine sumption, the director of the migration observatory, has said labour's plan on illegal

migration would struggle to stop the small boats because it hasn't really in reality proposed anything new. she also suggested that labour was wrong to assume that addressing the skills shortage would bring legal migration down. what is interesting, however, is that practically no party is making the case for more migration. after all, we are at record levels. well, i'm joined now by my panel. the former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie, and the pr consultant and former labour aide stella santa kidu. stella, i'm going to start with you.the stella, i'm going to start with you. the labour party says smash the gangs. that's its answer to small boats. the government says it's already trying to do that. >> they've already been trying to do a lot of things, but they haven't been achieving them. and it seems to me that voters believe that there are a lot more they could be doing, which they haven't even tried so far. >> for me, the eu wide returns agreement is the more important point because people like the immigration expert who you mentioned, they will tell you that this is something that is a lot more promising than smashing

the gun. >> if we have a returns agreement with the eu, they ask for something in return, a share of their, migrants. and actually, if we look at those southern european countries, the ones that border the mediterranean, they're getting way more boat crossings than we are. >> yeah. so what i would say about the immigration debate is if you want to take the concerns of immigration experts seriously when they say that having a law and order strategy of smashing the gangs that it's not going to work, which is what labour wants to do , it's a it's a two pronged to do, it's a it's a two pronged strategy. in the first one is the eu wide returns agreement. the second one is to have this new border. border security command that you will fund from the money that you save from the rwanda plan. so if you want to take that seriously, then you also have to accept their solution. and their solution. what they will tell you is the reason why this, strategy has not been working is because there, there aren't safe and legal routes, and there isn't any uid agreement. and for that reason, that's why they're going

to through all of these illegal means and what they will tell you is, look, you're going to take out a couple of criminals. a bunch of others will come to take up the opportunity because there is money to be made. and this is a business. so if you want to take that one seriously, then you also have to take the solution seriously, which is what the labour party is suggesting. >> well let's do that to kelvin. >> well let's do that to kelvin. >> well let's do that to kelvin. >> well look, look, i agreed maybe these these are proper serious people making this point and it wasn't really a political point. they were just pointing out each one of those boats, right, is worth about £200,000 to the smugglers . so it's quite to the smugglers. so it's quite a good idea to smash the gangs. however, no amount of . and her however, no amount of. and her point was, every time that you smash one gang at 200,000 a boat, 200 grand a boat, and you're sending over four, four boats, you're basically nearly a millionaire every day that the sun shines and there's calm. so all they were saying was they

will be replaced. now, of course, i have a more violent answer to it. i would actually i would actually send in actually some of our sas chums to take them out. this might create. >> so what do you mean by take, take them out. i, i we are at war with the gangs. >> yes, we are at war. and normally when you're at war, unfortunately, you have to resort to violence. right would anybody drop a tear if actually we solve the problem? because what they plan to do. labour. i don't object to this. it's a bit of grey matter. they're saying we're going to put mi6 in m15. we're going to we're going to have more police. we're going to do this. we're going to do that. the truth about the matter is that the gangs will, at that kind of money. honestly, i'm surprised you don't do it . surprised you don't do it. >> downing is a very bad death. let's let's kill them before they get the chance to drown. basically, is what you're saying i >>i -- >> i think to be fair, you were talking about the people who were managing the operations, not the migrants on the boat . not the migrants on the boat. >> we have to we have to. we are there to take out the. yes,

exactly. >> extrajudicial justice. yeah okay. so i see that you i really do value western values. >> you stand up for the value. what they're doing to our nation. and also i don't value what they're doing to the rest of europe. >> i also, i imagine that you are also very relaxed about us leaving the european court of human rights because you believe that human rights are so well preserved. >> are you in favour of the human rights of the smugglers? are you? >> there is no chance. yes, i would like. are you to not extrajudicially kill them? >> are you in favour of allowing them to continue to do this under all circumstances in life? >> i believe you should not have the same discussion in the years time . time. >> and we actually find that there's more migrants coming across in the boats. >> you would be quite happy with that. okay. and not in the us because i don't believe in the death penalty. >> don't don't feel you should feel bad about that. if you want to go to the us, honestly be my guest. >> now, this is of course a very contentious issue. i do want to ask the question , though, that ask the question, though, that if the labour party does this returns agreement with the

european union and a returns agreement does tend to have a deterrent effect , the price of deterrent effect, the price of that would be then taking more legal refugees as a proportion of those that arrive on the whole continent of europe , we whole continent of europe, we would likely have more legal refugees settling in, but fewer boat crossings. is that the gamble that keir starmer is taking? just have more refugees, but they come safely. >> now what you would have is you would have more people with a settled status rather than the situation where you have now, where you have a massive backlog of asylum seekers whose cases are not dealt with and they're all languishing in these centres and the and the british voter has to pay for their accommodation. they are not allowed to understand the trade off. >> but it is it is a trade off. right. because if you accept these people through an eu wide return scheme, where the eu decides how many migrants come to your country each year, i don't know that it would be, i don't know that it would be, i don't know, i don't know that it would be. >> why do you think it would be? but why would it be more

refugees? if you accept that there is a deterrent effect in actually saying, i'm going to deal with your case, i'm going to decide that you are not a genuine refugees, and i'm going to send you back. then if you accept that this is a deterrent effect, then that means that it's not going to be more, how is that going to work to be explain to me how that's going to work. >> somebody is here from the some somewhere in africa where there's been a war of which we know not, they're already here. we decide actually, you can't you can't stay here. you failed the point system or whatever system you have. how are we actually going to send them back? do you think a country is going to take a take them back? and what would we do if they say we don't? we are not going to take anybody back because actually we're quite pleased that they're not here because we can't we can hardly feed our own people. >> an eu wide agreement, of course they will take them back, take them back to where? to their countries. and you will literally have an agreement literally have an agreement literally to need to the middle east or back to iran. but, but your solution. >> solution. ayatollah, please , >> solution. ayatollah, please, please, please take these people back. how will that work? >> what's your solution about the refugee, the immigration

problem globally ? do you think problem globally? do you think that greece and italy should just stand back and just take everyone who comes, or should they start actually using their army and killing off these people? what is your solution? >> you don't seem to. >> you don't seem to. >> i am in favour. i am in favour of literally. if possible, to build a wall around europe. if that was possible to keep out the migrants can't literally mean that. no, but all i'm saying is we are going well, hold on a second. hungary is doing it already. poland is trying to do it already. >> you can't build a wall along. >> you can't build a wall along. >> i'm not saying that. i'm saying build a fence. i'm saying we have got to try and make sure that nobody does want to come here. why, tom, how do you feel about that? and do you feel are you saying honestly , little old you saying honestly, little old england, we're just take as many as we like little old italy, take as many as we like. do you want to carry on moving the whole of the middle east to europe or the whole of africa? every time there's a war, somebody says it's renting a wall along a beachfront would actually stop it. well, well, nothing else has. so what other

suggestion have we got? your suggestion have we got? your suggestion is it's a political answer. we will take a certain number and we just have to put up with that. >> 15 european countries have signed up to this idea of a safe third country to which people can be removed. >> okay, tell me, tell me which which safe country has anybody agreed on? we had one, which is called rwanda and not nobody would agree with it. and that's as dead as a dodo as of thursday night anyway. >> well, yes. >> well, yes. >> and that's the political question that does need to be answered. but my goodness me, there's much more to discuss. so thank you very much to my panel for that spirited debate. now after the break, we'll get the very latest on a gb news exclusive on the reform uk racism row. it appears there may be to the channel four investigation

welcome back to state of the nation. i'm tom harwood at 8:47.

now the saga between reform uk and channel 4 has opened a new chapter as sources from nigel farage's party accused the broadcaster of shameful and unethical conduct. conduct allegedly trying to trap activists into discussing divisive topics such as tommy robinson and george floyd . the robinson and george floyd. the reform source told gb news stephen edgington looking back at their actions. it's clear they were attempting to provoke volunteers into making statements deemed not politically correct. the campaigners, who sacrificed their time to canvass for mr farage in clacton, were confused and didn't provide the sensationalist footage. the undercover operatives hoped for. well, these developments come after mr farage accused channel 4 of a stitch up after a volunteer was filmed using racist slurs against the prime minister well, i'm joined now by gb news us correspondent stephen edgington and stephen, i suppose this means that there are many people who were goaded to make comments, who didn't provide the

goods. >> well, that's what reform sources have told us, that these two gentlemen, these two undercover plants or reporters, attempted to spark conversations about incredibly controversial things like tommy robinson, like george floyd, particularly around issues of race. and they didn't get the answers. one suspects that they hoped for other than in the case of andrew parker, of course, who did make horrific racist comments about the prime minister. but i think there are questions here being raised around channel four's ethics, particularly whether this was, fair. channel 4 obviously have done this before to the brexit party in 2019. they've done it again this year in 2024, to this to the reform party, the sort of new party that came out of that. and have they done it to the labour party? have they done it to the conservatives? i don't know, and i think there are some questions around that. >> yeah, it does raise questions

of, i suppose, political impartiality. if this is a, if this is a television channel thatis this is a television channel that is only going after one party, i'm yet to see the expose into the green party and the allegations of anti—semitism, frankly, that that party has suffered . suffered. >> well, i think that reform sources certainly point to the fact that the labour candidate in clacton made some rather odd comments around drinking, or his favourite drink was white men tears. and i think a lot of reform people see that as anti—white racism, frankly, so they questioned why didn't, channel 4 send an undercover reporter to the labour party candidate in clacton, for example? maybe they didn't. they didn't find anything, i don't know, but i know certainly that reform sources on the ground in clacton feel that it was quite unfair what channel 4 were trying to do , particularly when trying to do, particularly when you have volunteers. i mean, these people aren't senior people. they're not mps, they're not ministers. they're just random people who turned up from all around the country who

wanted to volunteer their time to help canvass for reform . and to help canvass for reform. and suddenly you've got these two people making these comments , people making these comments, which you expect to be private, and you might say your political opinions, and then the next day that might be plastered all over a major broadcaster , and your a major broadcaster, and your entire life and career might be overif entire life and career might be over if they deemed it unpolitically. correct. so i think that's where a lot of these reform people are coming from, thinking this is just totally unfair, and i suppose there are cases of people being goaded into, say, things that then they didn't. however, with then they didn't. however, with the case of the original gentleman who did use a horrific racial slur against the prime minister, they caught him fair and square. >> absolutely. and i think no one's denying that. i mean, obviously reform, are claiming in some ways that he was an actor as well, and, you know, i think that they're trying to sort of muddy the waters in terms of his background, but certainly he did make those comments. i think he was a volunteer for reform, maybe he

was an actor in his spare time as well. but i know that, you know , that might just be know, that might just be a complete coincidence. and i think that, you know, some people do hold racist views in this country. i think that's just an unfortunate fact, and, and maybe some of those people will be voting for reform, but also for labour and the conservatives and every other party. >> well, stephen edgington, thank you very much for bringing us that exclusive, really interesting stuff , seeing behind interesting stuff, seeing behind the curtain of how that investigation worked. now, responding to mr farage's claims, a spokesperson for channel 4 said we strongly stand by our rigorous and duly impartial journalism, which speaks for itself. we met mr parker for the first time at reform uk's headquarters, where he was a reform party canvasser. we did not pay the reform uk canvasser or anyone else in this report. mr parker was not known to channel 4 news and was filmed covertly via the undercover operation. now i must say that the candidates for the clacton constituency are as follows. jovan owusu—nepaul for the labour party giles watling,

who's the conservative? matthew bennison, bensalem for the liberal democrats . nigel farage liberal democrats. nigel farage for reform uk. natasha osborne for reform uk. natasha osborne for the green party. craig jamieson for the climate party, tony mack and independent tasos papanastasiou for the heritage party, and andrew pemberton for ukip. well that is all that we have on state of the nation tonight. up next though, is patrick christys tonight and back with us is patrick christys himself. what's coming up? >> yes, tom, thank you very, very much. yeah, we've got loads on this evening and i'm having a little look at labour's flagship . stop the boats plan, smash the gangs plan because that has apparently itself been smashed to pieces by immigration experts. so is that actually not worth the paper it's written on? also, keir starmer accepting around £76,000 in personal gifts if this was a conservative politician that was doing that , politician that was doing that, would they get away with it and has reform now cracked the solution to these doctors strikes to wipe their student debt? if they stay in the nhs

for ten years? i've got a lib dem on, i've got a tory on, i've got a labour voice on. it's all going to go off. tom, stay tuned. >> cracking stuff patrick look forward to it. it is interesting actually listening to those reports about, sir keir starmer and the gifts. it sounds like all these things in this, campaign, were they happening on another party in the narrative, fit differently? perhaps they'd be reported in a different way, but that's it from us. goodbye. and of course, coming up next is a very important thing. so don't switch off for either patrick or indeed the weather forecast. and it's sunny in somerset. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . solar sponsors of weather on. gb. news >> good evening. i'm here with your gb news. weather forecast brought to you by the met office. it's not feeling all that much like july at the moment. yes, there has been some sunshine around today, but temperatures have actually been around a little bit below average for the time of year and it is going to turn increasingly

cloudy and wet as we go through tonight because of a system that's pushing its way southwards. yes, there may be some clear skies to start the night in the south, but here it's going to turn very cloudy and everywhere we are going to see a lot of cloud and then that rain pushing its way in some of that rain heavy across some parts of northern england, the cloud, the rain. and for some of us, some blustery winds means temperatures are going to stay up temperatures are going to stay up most places holding up in double figures, a bit of a soggy start. then for many of us tomorrow morning, there could still be some heavy bursts of rain around, though most of that is going to clear away towards the east quite quickly. and in fact, by the time we get to 7:00 in the morning across some central southern parts of england, there could be some dnen england, there could be some drier, brighter weather around a bit cloudier further north across other parts of england and wales, and in fact across parts of northern ireland, western scotland. we're going to see another band of rain pushing its way in. this rain could be quite persistent, though not especially heavy. a little bit dner especially heavy. a little bit drier first thing across eastern parts of scotland, perhaps north—east england. but this band, affecting western scotland and northern ireland, is gradually going to make its way

east and south eastwards as we go through the day. so more places over northern england, wales, southwest england perhaps turning a damp again as we go through the afternoon. elsewhere there will be some drier weather around cloudier towards the east, brighter skies towards the northwest with some showers mixed in and temperatures still a little bit below average for the time of year. just about getting to the low 20s on thursday, there's going to be a bit of a north south split in the north. we can expect some blustery winds and some fairly frequent showers. some of these could be on the heavy side further south, though, across many central southern parts of england and wales, it's actually looking largely dry and lighter winds here too, with plenty of sunshine. by friday, though, more of us are likely to see some wet and windy weather. have a great evening. bye bye. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb. news >> airs 9 pm. i'm patrick christys tonight. >> the way to deal with it is to have a serious response. there are gangs that are running that trade disaster for labour. >> experts say plans to smash the gangs won't stop the boats. and if they stay in the nhs for ten years after qualifying , we ten years after qualifying, we will remit the whole of their student tuition fees . how much student tuition fees. how much do you think the latest junior doctors strike cost you? >> plus please. yeah. nice one. frankfurt. >> nice big twist and you're back for the lovely. there we go. >> really nice . >> really nice. >> really nice. >> is sir davey treating voters like idiots. and another day of shame for the woke nhs. there's a female nurse is suspended for reporting. a man in her changing room. plus.

>> all right, breakfast rolls, bacon rolls, porridge. who