to do uk, what his party plans to do to win over more voters over the next five years. that will be exciting. so too will my interview with the woman who could put herself forward in the running to replace rishi sunak, former home secretary suella braverman. she's been very outspoken in the sunday telegraph today, so i'll be asking her about that. is she the person who can turn the tories fortunes around in opposition.7 i'll also be joined by a political panel to dissect what she had to say . and analyse what she had to say. and analyse labour and the policies. not so much that they've announced, but that they've scrapped yesterday. and author peter caddick—adams will be here to share why he thinks that the recipe for winston churchill's success dunng winston churchill's success during his wartime premiership of 1940 to 45 can be found in the first world war. so we have got another huge 90 minutes of punchy politics lined up for you. this morning. do not think of going anywhere . this

of going anywhere. this well, let's go through the first set of sunday papers under a new labour government with charlie rowley former senior conservative adviser . charlie, conservative adviser. charlie, lovely to see you. morning. >> thanks for having me. >> thanks for having me. >> i'm dressed in red to mark the change in government. i think it's only fair to be wearing labour's colours on this weekend. >> and england ulez and to be fair, that is a very good point. >> and england, what a penalty shoot out, which we will come on to at the end of this section. but let's get stuck in. first of all, what i thought interesting was interesting about the coverage, particularly in the broadsheets. so the sunday telegraph and the sunday times is the mention of blair. blair is the mention of blair. blair is back seemingly through the medium of alan milburn and jacqui smith's appointments. talk us through that, charlie. >> yes. so alan milburn, who was a former minister in the tony blair government, actually came back in in 2010 under the tories as sort of a social a social media adviser, as a social mobility. >> that's right. >> that's right. >> adviser. so he's a very, very keen on getting the nhs up and

running again. it's talking about privatisation of the nhs. so using the private sector as well as what it currently has, and it comes on the back of wes streeting announcement when he first walked into the health department to say that the nhs is broken. so it's about bringing back people that are centrist centrists in terms of the labour party, people who are probably thinkers rather than in terms of practicalities rather than just left wing ideologues. yes. and it'll be a very interesting time in the department of health. >> blair has written this op ed for the sunday times, in which he sort of talked about the fact that keir starmer needs to be quite centrist, needs to appeal to all, can't get too bogged down with sort of identity politics and wokery, which is probably good advice. but i think people are always suspicious when blair rears his head and i appreciate, to be fair, his foundation has got this massive event this week. so he's written in the paper to kind of preface that . but at the kind of preface that. but at the same time, the tentacles of blairism might worry some people or maybe righties should rest assured that it's actually going to be more of a centrist

approach than a corbynista one. >> i think that's absolutely right. and behind the scenes, you know, tony blair's been advising sir keir starmer all the way through the leadership campaign all the way before , campaign all the way before, since sir keir became leader. and obviously blair made that intervention not too long ago to talk about actually what the definition definition is of a woman, to which keir starmer then had this u—turn, amazingly, dunng then had this u—turn, amazingly, during one of the debates. but he agreed with tony blair only. >> indeed, we live in hope have we had the appointment of the women and equalities minister. >> yet, though i think it's anneliese dodds, it is anneliese dodds. >> so she's retained that brief. all right. interesting, let's talk about that press conference yesterday then, because, he basically announced, yep, scrapping rwanda already from day one. there's been a response to that by some of the right wing papers saying, oh, well, you know, migrants are over in calais. are rejoicing, i'm not sure whether that's right or not, but it's interesting to kind of be starting with what you're axing. one of the themes of the campaign was we can't really nail labour down on much. we don't really know what

they're going to do at the moment. we know what they're not going to do. they're not going to do rwanda. we've had a little bit about james timpson, who's the timpson's boss, who's been appointed as prisons minister, and the fact that he's very much into rehabilitation doesn't think that non—violent criminals should be imprisoned for too long, which is quite interesting. and then a bit of talk, charlie, about realigning with the eu . should we be with the eu. should we be worried about this? >> i think if you voted for brexit, then yes, you would be worried. it's you're absolutely right. we don't know what labour stands for. i think that's part of the reason why the turnout was so low in the election and why, you know, as boris was saying, i think boris johnson wrote in the mail yesterday that, you know, the labour victory is wide but thin in terms of just, you know, a majority just based on stance , majority just based on stance, sand built on sand. and it's absolutely right because he scrapped rwanda, this was the number one deterrent to stop migrants, illegal migrants coming into the uk. it's something that sir keir said he was going to do. he has done it on day one. but what does it replaced by? and, you know, when immigration was such a big factor during the election.

that's why reform did particularly well. that's why the tories did particularly badly, because they didn't deliver what they said they were going to do . but there are lots going to do. but there are lots of communities in the north of england and particularly communities that voted for brexit. want to see tougher immigration rules that want to see us. you deal with this issue. >> i would argue that the rwanda plan didn't seem to be that popular with anyone. i mean , the popular with anyone. i mean, the idea of controlling immigration is certainly extremely popular with most of the electorate, according to all the polling. but rwanda, i mean, and the other problem was rishi sunak did miss a trick in calling an early election before any flights took off. i mean, what's your view as a former tory adviser on the timing of all this? >> well, i think like the majority of people, i was shocked that the 4th of july was the date, exactly as you say, because you know, one of your flagstone policy flagship policies, you know, something that's the cornerstone of your election campaign and your whole premiership where you've said we are going to stop the boats and you've invested so much time and energy and money into that particular policy, i think it would have been symbolic and the right thing to do to see those

flights actually take off. so you can actually go to the country to say, look, it might be just a handful of people to begin with, but i've gone further and you know, beyond any other home secretary, any other prime minister to deal with such an extreme problem. yes, it has to have an extreme, solution. and we didn't see any of those flights take place. and i think thatis flights take place. and i think that is a problem. and, you know, to call the election before any of these flights took place, i think was clearly an own goal, and which is why the electorate rejected the tories so badly. >> also interesting to see in that op ed that blair has written, that he's advising starmer to concentrate on bringing down immigration. i think in light of the fact that, you know, the labour vote share is low, more people voted for the conservatives and reform combined than voted for labour, and the key priority of voters on the right is to bring the numbers down. so let's see how he plans to do that . should we he plans to do that. should we talk about the nigel problem as it's been described by dan hodgesin it's been described by dan hodges in the mail on sunday, i mean, let's be honest, i'm going to have richard tice on later. it was a good night for reform. it was a good night for reform. i think they would have liked their vote share to be higher.

obviously, there's a debate to be had about proportional representation. the lib dems secure fewer votes and yet have 71 seats compared to reform's five. how do you think both left and right solve the farage problem? charlie, i know it's a big question. >> it's and it's the one that everybody's got to ask themselves. and if you're going to be the new leader of the conservative party, you've got to know how to. i think, align with nigel when he says things that are right. and he's been very outspoken on things that i think lots of people care about. so just take stop, stop and search, for example. that is something i think a lot of people actually agree with because it prevents crime. it prevents actual criminals going to prison. if you can sort of catch the perpetrator early. yeah. there are things that he said that do resonate with the public. said that do resonate with the pubuc.so said that do resonate with the public. so it's about agreeing with nigel when he gets it right. and he's a brilliant communicator. but it's absolutely tackling him and being able to tackle him when he gets things wrong. you know the stuff he said about vladimir putin? i think would have, you know, shocked a lot of conservatives. you know, the idea that he was sort of apologising, you know, for, for

the invasion of ukraine because he called it ten years ago. well, you know, you can't just sort of, say, well, i said this ten years ago and therefore it must be right. and, you know, he had a point that boris johnson had a point that boris johnson had said similar. >> and being called out about it by the i in i think, 2016, he's also said that he's condemned putin, you know, and thinks the invasion was wrong. but yeah, i mean, we won't go over all of the arguments now. but the point is, is that whatever happens, you know, that reform rabble, as i think they were described by somebody at the weekend, is going to be a thorn in the side of both. but is it credible for him to think that he could lead the opposition with five mps? >> i do think it's credible in in that sense. i guess by his own admission as well, he won't be the opposition in parliament, but as a voice for the for the nation. i mean, i think what is going to be very interesting now is to see what is what are reform's plans when it comes to stopping the boats and stopping illegal migration, because he's talked about, he's criticised the rwanda plan. fine. you know, some reform . i think candidates some reform. i think candidates have talked about turning the boats back. okay how does that

actually work in practice? is that actually something that you can expect from border force officials to actually turn the boats back if you've got a dinghy, sort of, you know, flailing in the ocean, some of the practicalities of what reform are actually saying, i think are now going to be scrutinised. >> also, the spectre of le pen and bardella gaining more supremacy in france with the second round of voting going on as we speak , almost. you know, as we speak, almost. you know, i'm getting this impression of le pen and co sort of pushing the migrants in our direction and us trying to kind of push them back. i don't know necessarily whether the rise in right wing ism over in france necessarily helps farage or indeed this labour government when it comes to organising how on earth the french and indeed the english deal with that channel problem. should we talk about tory leadership ? i mean, about tory leadership? i mean, we must, i'm afraid, charlie , we must, i'm afraid, charlie, i've got suella braverman coming on later. are you a fan of hers, >> no. i think, suella, will make a very, very good backbench constituency mp. and she may

even appear in some other role at some other stage, but i think leading the conservative party, having, during 2 or 3 prime ministers time tarnished it. >> and clearly i see the observer's got the runners and riders up. i mean, her odds are quite high, but they're, it's they're better actually for i think kemi badenoch and penny mordaunt now out of the race completely as everything to play for. but do you think they should sort of appoint somebody now that they want for the duration of the next five years, or should they think about an interim leader now and then regroup? ids iain duncan smith thinks that they should have a huge period of reflection before doing anything, and just keep rishi sunak in place. >> so i think that might be just a little bit too difficult. i mean, i think rishi should stay there. i mean, look, he called there. i mean, look, he called the election. it was a terrible disaster. the best thing he could do for the conservative party, i think, is stick around a bit longer. you know, take on the heat from being the leader of the opposition. you know, you have to go against sir keir starmer at pmqs, keep the party together , allow a contest to together, allow a contest to take place. i think it does need

some time to reflect. the party needs some time to reflect, and maybe when rishi sort of, you know, if he doesn't want to stick around as the leader of the opposition, an interim, someone that can just keep the party together, that can bring all the divisions where there have been all these new groups and factions that are popping up. you know, we need to stop thinking about who's the popcorn and who's the new conservative and who's the new conservative and who's the new conservative and who's a one nation. we are a conservative party we are a broad church. we just need to get into the room together and focus on the policies. and what do the people want? what are the priorities and how can we actually have a plan to deliver on those? and then i think once you start to have someone that can actually take on labour and actually, you know, prosecute them in a sense, you know, because we are now the opposition. >> yeah. one advantage of being reduced to 121 mps, as awful as that's been for the conservatives and it's an, you know, absolute disaster from an election point of view. but at the same time, whoever's leading that troop, they're a bit more easy to corral and control. you could argue if you can't install party discipline with 121, then you've got no hope at all. very quick final word on the

football, charlie. we were just speaking about it earlier. what a moment to rejoice in after a difficult week . five out of five difficult week. five out of five penalties scored. who'd have thunk it ? thunk it? >> who'd have thunk it? indeed. and i mean, it was nail biting stuff. >> i mean, i think, look, you know, it still wasn't the, beautiful, pretty performance that we all want and hope from the team because they're all a great bunch of players, but they still have an issue, i think, working together for whatever that is. but you know, but to win a penalty shootout, something historically england arne slot for saka having missed his last time around. >> but there is this sense, isn't there, charlie? do you need to make it this difficult? >> yes . >> yes. >> yes. >> make it easier for us to spectate this thing. and what have we got? the semi—final then?i have we got? the semi—final then? i think next sunday. so they've got a bit of a rest. >> wednesday. is it wednesday? >> wednesday. is it wednesday? >> wednesday. is it wednesday? >> wednesday night? >> wednesday night? >> wednesday night p m. >> wednesday night p m. >> wednesday night at 8 pm. sorry, i've missed that. then. then they must. oh, so it's the final on sunday? yes wow. all right. >> you'd already booked it into your diary next sunday. the final, my darling. >> there. >> there. >> we'll be there. >> we'll be there. >> to i had tear up my diary for six weeks and i need to revisit

it. put some more social things in there, charlie. it's all been work, work, work. but thank you very much indeed forjoining me this morning. lovely to see you. well, as i say, lots still more to come, including that interview with suella braverman. i'm sure you'll be very interested in what she has to say. i'm going to try and pin her down. are you standing, former home secretary? we can't have any waffle. we need confirmation on this show. i think you'll agree. we're also going to be hearing from a very punchy cross—party political panel just to talk about labour, first of all, and then we'll bnng first of all, and then we'll bring them back in to react to the braverman interview. so still loads more to come. stay

welcome back to gb news. you're watching the camilla tominey show lovely to have your company this sunday morning. now we're going to have a panel discussion. we love a panel on gb news, don't we? and i'm joined by former labour adviser, matthew laza and political correspondent for the spectator. james heale. hello, chaps. good

morning. >> you recovered just about. today is the first day of feeling human. >> i know you just saying. you didn't expect thursday night to be in what seemed to be a former strip club with darren grimes. >> it was. it was absolutely with our wonderful viewers , with our wonderful viewers, which we loved, which were fantastic. but i'm slightly worried that they kept saying, oh, you're our favourite leftie and you're the acceptable face of socialism. that's great. so absolutely . it was quite absolutely. it was quite a lovely night. >> unacceptable face. >> unacceptable face. >> exactly . but just don't tell >> exactly. but just don't tell some of the comrades. no. >> that's right. and, james, where were you on the night watching it? from the spectator office, i guess a bit of it. >> and also a few parties who went to the carlton for a bit. so there was a funeral for that and forget you. >> honestly, you're such a blue right now. let's talk in this first because i'm going to have two panels with you. we're going to talk about labour in this one. and then you're going to react to the suella braverman interview after we've done it a little bit later in the show. let's just talk about this vote share issue. i mean, the idea that starmer is in government with this massive majority, a bigger majority than probably he could have imagined, although less than the pollsters had predicted at one stage where they were putting the tories

down to sort of like complete armageddon. but it is weird, isn't it, matthew, to have him in there on 34% share of the vote? more people voted for the conservatives and reform combined than voted for the labour party. and there he is with all of these seats . with all of these seats. >> yeah, i mean, it is an extraordinary example of the inadequacies of our electoral system, which of course, labour talks about when it's in opposition, there's been inside the party actually, there's been a big move towards support for fair votes, proportional representation over the last sort of decade. there used to be quite a lot of union opposition to it. and the unions have come round. so the conference does regularly pass motions in favour of changing the voting system. they're never going to. well, i mean, this is a labour government's quite happy with first past the post now. >> so are the lib dems. by the way. they've changed their tune. >> absolutely overrepresented. now, proportionately. but the thing is, sunday morning we want to get bogged down in different electoral systems. but the one that we voted on for those very few people who did vote in the referendum under the coalition, which is av, which is when you number the constituency and you

number the constituency and you number your choices, and until somebody gets over 50, that might rear its head again, because that would because of course, what you'd have seen this week is quite a lot of seats where lib dems and the greens, because labour will be conscious of the threat to its left, as well as the threat to its right, where those voters would have transferred to laboun would have transferred to labour, and labour would have, you know, you keep the seats that you want where their labour got 31 and the greens got 11 sort of thing in lots of those seats in the home counties, which has now got to be careful what you wish for because like the greens, if they got pr, i think would be left with like 40, 50 seats or something, which would be a threat to the labour party. >> i mean, this is the big story for me of the night, which is actually the sort of death of the old two party, three party system in 1997, the tories, the lib dems, labour together got more than 90% of the vote. this time they got less than 70% of the vote. labour and the conservatives just got 57% of the vote together. and what we're seeing is these smaller parties, these independents, the greens as well, really sort of nibbling into labour's left flank while the sort of reform coming up on the right as well. so i think that's going to be really interesting. these debates around proportional

representation for now, we've kind of got first past the post, which is sort of preserve the two main parties dominance. but i think if there's any move to an av system that might change. and also, of course, the reform will finish second in 94 constituencies, a lot of them in the north of england. there's a whole sort of belt in the north of england where they think 20 seats next to each other, where the reform came second, including yvette cooper seat. >> i mean, i wrote on saturday in my column for the telegraph that, you know, it wasn't guaranteed. this whole idea of ten years of labour when you've only got a 34% vote share, i think, is a fallacy. i mean, he may do very well. he may steady the ship, he may be quite centrist. we've got the kind of influence of blair clearly in the background, which is probably no bad thing if you're a righty thinking that it's not going to go, you know, fully corbynista again, but at the same time, you know, it's difficult, isn't it, because we know who they won't tax, for instance, because they've said that working people, they haven't said who they will rachel reeves is going to be in a bit of a fiscal straitjacket. and i can't understand this. matthew, can you try and explain how are they going to fund their spending pledges if they're not going to put tax up, at least on working people, and she's going

to stick to these very strict borrowing rules because they want to look as if they're economically competent. we had the steve baker intervention where he was saying after he lost his seat in whickham, you know, she's going to have to reintroduce austerity. i mean, do you understand that argument? is that is there something in there? >> well, there's something in that, because we've seen over the last 24 hours of the appointment of these blasts from the past with alan milburn job to be confirmed on the nhs. jacqui smith, and douglas alexander, of course, they lived through in 97 when labour did stick to the tory spending plans in 97. so you had this kind of weird 18 months which which was fine. i mean, i'm old enough to remember it was fine in 97 because there was so much kind of joy around the fact that the government wasn't suddenly transforming the health service, they got away with it. and then it was only after the two years of the tory spending plans that they started to pour money into they started to pour money into the nhs. they did actually, you know, stealth taxes was the phrase at the time. they kept income tax where it was, but they did other taxes, which again, we might see, over time .

again, we might see, over time. so i think actually that's why keir was emphasising at the press conference yesterday, it takes time to turn public services around, not least because they're not going to have the money to spend on it for those first couple of years. what they will do is the specific promises on school fees will happen, probably phased in, controversial, but it will happen. controversial, but it will happen . the other the non—doms happen. the other the non—doms thing that that that will fund the specific pledges. but let's face it, the kind of, you know, they were pretty small beer, you know, in terms of the extra appointments available in the nhs and the extra teachers in state schools, if you're going to transform public services, that's going to have to wait to the second half of the term. james. >> i mean, what a spectator, readers thinking about all this, are they very suspicious that actually in a few months time, they're going to find their council tax has gone up, their gardens are being taxed in a kind of welsh labour style tax on wealth. i mean, they're just waiting for a bombshell. >> yeah. i think sort of raising a lot of taxes everywhere, sort of small sums that add up to a much bigger sum. i think the interesting thing, of course, is labour's response to the next couple of weeks ahead of that first budget. you know, the

plans for that. are they going to kind of pin it all on the tories? are they going to say, actually, we've looked at the books, we need to actually increase taxes higher than we thought on this. different areas, more assets. i think i think that's the assets thing is the real interesting thing. obviously they can't really raise income tax from sort of 75 year high of the income, the tax burden overall, but i think there's a lot of sort of scepticism and suspicion. and i'd just say on the 2019 election, there was a pollster, james carnegie, who came up with the phrase the red wall, which defined that he's also this time come up with the phrase the sandcastle. success. you know, basically, keir starmer's, success is built on a castle of sand could easily wash away with these tides. and one of the ways i think that could happen is if the economy doesn't grow like it says it will, they keep talking about growth, but growth takes time and you can kind of see a mid—term blues affecting this labour party within sort of two, three years time. >> can we talk about accountability as well? i mean, it's quite interesting that some of the dialogue on the largely left leaning twitter and social media is like, oh, well, you know, the writer finished, and you've got nothing more to say. and all the rest of it, i thought, what are you talking about? it's actually now these sort of left wing commentators that don't have much more to

say, because they spent the last 14 years attacking the tories. it's like, where are you going to pivot to now? we've already seen some quite extraordinary advances, examples of sort of like slavish devotion to the labour cause, from a few commentators. and what's interesting is we don't know why jonathan reynolds has pulled out of the interview that he was due to do with us today. we also don't know why chopper, the political editor, chris hope, was not invited to ask a question at the press conference yesterday. i mean, you've got a prime minister on one hand who said, well, we are here to represent everyone, including those who didn't vote for us, which i thought, well, that's a good thing because two thirds of the public didn't almost. but at the public didn't almost. but at the same time, i mean, are we now going to see this mass snubbing of gb news because labour only want to speak to people that agree with them all the time? >> i think it's more cock up than conspiracy. particularly with yesterday with not calling chopper , maybe johnny didn't chopper, maybe johnny didn't feel he was. he wanted to get the tominey scrutiny this morning, but, i'm gonna i'm gonna tell him he needs to. >> i will hold everyone accountable, regardless of what party they belong to. that's always been the schtick of this show. >> but i think you've got an issue in terms of in terms of the sort of labour, internal

labour politics. now for the first time, you've got, you know, labour mps in seats like ashford in kent, you know, all these home county seats which are very different. take will be more worried about capital gains tax than traditional labour seats. >> i also think that the danger is that labour and the labour commentariat think that there's always a rival, and it was all because of the tories good intentions, and a few more resources can't solve some of these structural issues. and it's a mistake to think because you get a tory government out and put labour on automatically, things are going to come better overnight. and i think that's the single biggest mistake labour could make going into these things. it'll take some time, but you know, just simply being not the tories is not going to be enough. and the commentariat around them needs to reflect that. >> also, i think one of the phrases i mean, we remember gordon brown talking about the global financial crisis being a problem for him. i think we're going to hear that phrase. we've inherited a terrible legacy quite a lot. you know, we can't do what we want to do because of the legacy that we have inherited, and therefore that might be indeed the dialogue. >> how many years didn't they get away with that? that will be the question. >> i don't know, but there's always a slight it's like long term economic plan. i mean, you say it often enough, the public

start to believe it. we'll have to leave it there, chaps, but you are coming back so we can cover the tory side of things in just a moment. so they'll be back. i'm going to be joined not only by suella braverman, as i've already said. but don't forget, richard tice, chairman of reform uk, is going to be here, and i'm going to be asking him how he plans along with nigel farage, to professionalise the outfit, not least when, as we've just discussed, reform did so well. i think they knocked the tories out of at least 94 seats, all still to come, so don't go anywhere.

welcome back. much more to come. in the next hour, i'm going to be joined by the reform uk chairman, richard tice, and former home secretary suella braverman. but first, here's the news with ray ray addison. >> thanks, camilla. good morning. it's 10 am. our top stories. the prime minister is beginning a uk tour as he tries

to reset the relationship between westminster and the devolved nations. first up, sir keir starmer is heading to edinburgh, where he's expected to meet first ministerjohn swinney. the pm says his government will place scotland back at the beating heart of everything we do as he works to rebuild our country. he's also promised to turn his back on tribalism and usher in an era of stability and moderation . sir stability and moderation. sir tony blair is urging the new pm to come up with a plan for controlling immigration. writing in the sunday times, the former labour leader offered his advice to sir keir starmer to turn the tide on populism and warned if we don't have rules, we get prejudices. he's urged starmer to introduce digital identity cards to and avoid any vulnerability on wokeism. sir tony, whose attempt to roll out id cards while in power was unsuccessful, called for a new digital system to help with border control . england are to border control. england are to face the netherlands in the

euros semi—finals after beating switzerland in germany last night. the three lions beat switzerland on penalties five three after the game ended one all after extra time. the prince of wales was among football fans rejoicing as england won, describing the match as nail biting to the very end. in france, voters are heading to the polls for the second round of elections. the result is expected to reconfigure the political landscape , with political landscape, with national rally likely to win the most votes but fall short of a majority last sunday, marine le pen's party scored historic gains to win the first round. they've seen increased support off the back of voter concerns over household budgets and immigration in the us. heavy rain has hit parts of texas ahead of tropical storm beryl making landfall by monday morning. one eyewitness posted this video from the state caphal this video from the state capital, houston, which shows pounng capital, houston, which shows pouring water and strong winds. texas has issued a disaster

declaration for 121 counties. as the storm approaches, residents have been stocking up on gas, food and water and putting storm shutters up on buildings . shutters up on buildings. streams of red hot lava have been spewing from a volcano in italy, covering the sky in black smoke and ash. volcanic activity from mount etna has intensified this week , with vigorous this week, with vigorous explosions following four years of dormancy. etna's intense activity has lit up the sky near the city of catania. in response, the fire brigade has doubled the number of firefighters on the island . anas firefighters on the island. anas sarwar crew has left their simulated mars habitat after more than a year in isolation. the four person team re—emerged at the johnson space centre in houston after conducting a series of experiments. during their mission, the crew grew and harvested vegetables, went on mars walks, simulated communication delays with earth, two more missions are planned in

2025 and 2027. right? those are the latest gb news headlines. for now, i'm ray addison moore in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone , sign up to news smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com >> forward slash alerts . >> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. let's have a look at what we've still got lined up for today. in just a minute i'm going to be joined by reform uk chairman richard tice, following their great success in the election. is reform. now the real opposition ? i'll also be real opposition? i'll also be joined by the former home secretary, suella braverman. what can be done to save the remnants of the tories? is she the woman to unite the right? and i'm going to be joined by my punchy political panel, james heale and matthew laza to analyse what the former home secretary had to say and peter caddick—adams, who has written a brilliant book about churchill,

will be sharing the details of that. but let's see now if we've got richard tice hopefully down the line, we do . richard, the line, we do. richard, congratulations for becoming the reform mp for boston and skegness. you must be delighted . skegness. you must be delighted. >> thank you very much. yes, i am and very honoured indeed. it was, quite a thing to overturn the biggest ever tory majority in a general election of 25,500 votes. so, yeah, i've got a great responsibility, which i'm looking forward to getting stuck in already. starting on the first casework, great stuff, >> overall with the result, i mean, obviously we were talking earlier on the panel about reform having come second in many more seats than i think anyone would have anticipated. overall, a 14% vote share. were you happy with that, richard , or you happy with that, richard, or would you have liked that to have been higher at 4 million people voting for you? i asked because nigel farage had said earlier in the week, i think in his interview to christopher hope, that he hoped that 6 million people would vote for reform. >> well, it's obviously turnout across the board was lower , so

across the board was lower, so down at 60, some over 10% lower. and that's a great shame. but a reflection, frankly, of people's lack of trust in politics. of course we're ambitious. we're greedy for more votes. but the fact that 4.1 million people did vote for us on that 6% turnout, i think was a real shock to the establishment. despite everything the lies, the spin, the mud, the abuse that was thrown at us in the last ten days or so of the campaign. and this is just the beginning, as nigel said, it's a bridgehead. five mps now with, james murdoch joining us on friday afternoon after, i think, the third counting of his votes . so it's a counting of his votes. so it's a great start and we build from here. and i think genuinely we do become the real opposition. the tory party is completely split asunder. they're they're sort of so far apart from each other. it's not a cohesive force. whereas we clearly are . force. whereas we clearly are. and we've got the policies that

i think actually will save this country, whether it's on immigration, whether it's on growth, whether it's on law and order, i don't think anybody's really got any confidence in the labour party's ability to solve those issues. and i think the key extraordinary statistic is that keir starmer got 600,000 fewer votes at this election than corbyn got in 2019, and yet he's got this huge majority , he's got this huge majority, which proves the absurdity of our ridiculous first past the post system under some form of pr , we'd have over 90 seats. pr, we'd have over 90 seats. camilla. that would be proper representative democracy. and thatis representative democracy. and that is the big debating point that is the big debating point that we should be talking about. >> but you probably have to campaign with the greens and the liberal democrats on that, won't you?i liberal democrats on that, won't you? i mean, i don't know whether the liberal democrats are still advocates of proportional representation because they've done very well out of their fewer votes for 71 seats than reform. but the greens, of course, they had a54 percent lift in their vote share, and that would put them on about 40 odd seats. but

you're not natural bedfellows with the yellows or the greens, are you really? so i mean, can you see, i think any cross—party collaboration on that campaign, i think on this issue actually, we can be working together. >> there's a, a cross party campaign group called make votes matter, which has been working very hard on this. i think you were talking earlier, a large chunk of the labour party actually wants pr, and that's what most western democracies have. and there's a reason for that because it's the fair, proper system to have. every vote is equal. it really saddens me when people say, i'm not going to vote for you. it's a wasted vote, and therefore i'm not going to vote at all. you know, this is really important. people have got to believe in democracy and believe that their vote counts. so that's why it's the right solution. there's a variety of forms on it, but that now is the big debating point. and our incredible achievement of this election has highlighted the real flaws in this system. but we may be five in number in the house of commons, but i think it's fair to say we might be a great deal noisier than

those five, as i don't i don't doubt that you'll be rest assured. >> i don't doubt that you'll be noisy . do you feel any sort of noisy. do you feel any sort of regret that because of reform strong brexiteers, and indeed quite right wing tories, did get unseated? i'm thinking about jacob rees—mogg, who i know you know personally because you've obviously worked on gb news with him, but also somebody like andrea jenkins. i mean, she was putting nigel farage on his her leaflets and not rishi sunak. and because of reform, they've been knocked out and they've been knocked out and they've been replaced by labour mps. >> well, look, i mean, our progress and success has been self—evident for the last six months. they all have the chance to join us, to defect to us like lee anderson did. they decided to stay in the existing conservative tent. and in a sense, you know, there are consequences to people's decisions. they made that decision, and in a sense, they paid the price. that's what competition is all about. yeah, i mean, we came second in almost a hundred seats across the

united kingdom. we're now the dominant opposition in the north of england to the labour party. so we've made huge progress. and i come back, you know, competition is a fundamental conservative principle. they should believe in it. >> okay . how is reform going to >> okay. how is reform going to professionalise the operation? this was something again that nigel talked about last week. i mean, you say that there was lots of mudslinging slung at you and that may be a fair point, but you also did have a problem with quite a few candidates. you have to accept that, richard. surely >> yeah. look, some people said inappropriate things. and, look, we're a fast growing political start—up. and let's remember, microsoft was starting in a garage, so you professionalise all the way through. you continuously improve. and where we make mistakes, we don't shy away from it. we recognise it, we learn from it. we deal with it and we move on. and frankly, that approach voters like where you're honest about things that are working and honest about things where you've got to improve. and that's who we are. that's our very businesslike approach. so yes, we will

continue to improve and professionalise. we've absolutely committed to that. it's a real thing. every party has their problems with candidates. i mean, look at the green party, they had to in a sense. they had to withdraw support from many more candidates than we did. got no coverage in the press whatsoever because it's the lovely greens. >> we didn't get coverage in the telegraph , to be fair. richard, telegraph, to be fair. richard, will you align will you sort of think about an alliance? i know about the talk about the bridgehead. will you think about an alliance with the tories? i mean, just in terms of that vote share. for instance, if you add up the conservatives and the reform votes in numbers, you get more than labour. so there may be an argument to say that you are better together. pardon the expression . expression. >> goodness me, i think we must pardon that expression. wash him out, >> it's associated with reform with with remain is why i say that. >> but you you could have a strength in numbers argument on the right . the right. >> the point is that actually we took a lot of votes from, from the labour party as well. and actually, i think it's the

labour party that is also looking over their shoulder at the growth of reform in some of their key industrial heartlands. so we've got to keep pushing forward with our common sense policies . and i just say, you policies. and i just say, you know, competition is a good thing. and i just think that we've got huge momentum and we will keep growing and people are welcome to join us. >> and what about you individually, richard? i mean, you've obviously had a very successful business career. we hear from rupert lowe who is similarly, you know, got a got a similarly, you know, got a got a similarly large bank account that he is going to forfeit his salary. he's the newly elected reform mp for great yarmouth and give it to charity. will you be similarly generous? >> well, i've been generous throughout my life, camilla. and i know i've been generous to politics in, in essentially launching the reform brand and growing it. we've got to look at all these things for sure, get into the technicalities of you know, all of this stuff for the

moment. >> you're going to take your mp salary at this stage. >> look , frankly, i haven't >> look, frankly, i haven't really given any thought of it. >> it's such a binary thing being whether you're elected or not. so we'll look at all of that over the coming days and weeks, but for me, the focus is now actually working out how the house of commons works, but also starting to to, meet council leaders. i've already been in contact with them, teeing up meetings with that. there's a huge amount to do in the constituency, which has been badly let down after decades of failure by the conservative mps there. so there's a huge amount to do. >> yeah. what will you do as far as boston? will you get another home there and spend, you know, half your time there, half down in london. what's your plan for that, >> literally i'm property hunting as of tomorrow and doing some on, on next week. so we're not messing about. we're not wasting any time at all. camilla. >> all right. hitting the ground running . richard tice. thank you running. richard tice. thank you very much indeed. for your time. this morning, not least after what i know has been a pretty

hectic six weeks. thank you. thank you . well, thank you again thank you. well, thank you again to richard tice in just a minute, i'm going to be speaking to the woman who could take over the tories. suella braverman. you obviously won't to miss that interview, so

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm joined in the studio now by suella braverman, the former home secretary. newly elected tory mp, one of 121 suella. >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> can we just cut to the chase? are you standing? >> oh, gosh, i know camilla. you want . you want the drama, you want. you want the drama, you want. you want the drama, you want the headlines? i'm going to have to disappoint you. why no announcements? listen, why, why, why are you holding back? >> because it's obvious from your speech when you won your seat on thursday night, early friday morning, it's been obvious from some of the op eds

you've written before the election. it's certainly obvious from what you've written in the sunday telegraph today that you are to use the press expression on manoeuvres. so why not just confirm that you want to lead the party? >> listen, because unlike 2019 and unlike in 2022, we are we have the luxury of being in opposition. >> there is no urgency to install a new leader. what is urgent and absolutely essential now is that we as a party, reflect and accept what got us into this existentially damaging situation. and at the moment, that's what concerns me. the most. there is still disagreement. there are many of my colleagues , both inside my colleagues, both inside parliament and outside, who believe that we just need to do more of the same. that's what concerns me, that. >> yet, i mean, the counterargument to this would be that you are being disagreeable, you know, wasn't helpful to rishi sunak throughout the campaign to have you sort of like lobbing grenades in there hasn't been from you this kind

of unite or die mentality . lots of unite or die mentality. lots of unite or die mentality. lots of different tory mps, you know, are dissatisfied with all these different caucuses representing all these different positions. why can't you just be a broad church that sings from the same hymn sheet, instead of people singing different songs at the same time? >> well, first of all i would say is i didn't really take part in this campaign, so i didn't do any media. i shared my thoughts, and i think most of the things i wrote were about attacking labour and the, the, the kind of doom that awaits us under laboun doom that awaits us under labour, something that horrifies me. and that's what we really need to get ourselves in gear for, to oppose and expose all the harmful, damaging things that they're going to be doing. but the reality is that, you know, i've not been in charge of this party. i've not been part of the cabinet for many months. decisions were made above my head, but i think the point with that and the point you're making is, you know , if we're making is, you know, if we're making mistakes, it is incumbent on some of us at least to point out some of us at least to point out some of us at least to point out some of those sonically, i did it privately for many years. i wasn't listened to. sometimes

you need to say things and they need to be heard, and we do that by putting country first and i'm afraid party second. and the point is, i think it's disingenuous to blame, you know, people like myself for pointing out the mistakes when actually the cause of the problem were the cause of the problem were the mistakes themselves. so i think that's a sideline and a distraction. the point that we need to talk about is what went wrong to get us into those of us who said things were going wrong are not the fault, and i'm not allocating blame to others. we've got to be really careful about this. this is not about pointing the finger and saying this one got it wrong and this one's a bad person. we're all in this together. that's why the first thing i said when i got re—elected was i'm sorry. yes, i'm sorry. to the british people. my party let you down. i'm implicated as well. we're all in this together. no, i get it. i'm not passing the blame on to anybody else. we've all got to anybody else. we've all got to take responsibility. we've all got to be honest. searingly honest. it's going to be uncomfortable for some people. we've got to be honest about

what went wrong because otherwise we don't have any hope of fixing it. >> we're going to get on to what went wrong. but one of the things that did get wrong was a lack of party discipline. if you one day want to lead this party, how can you expect people to be disciplined and loyal to you if you haven't been loyal to the previous prime minister? >> well , what previous prime minister? >> well, what is party discipline? >> what is loyalty ? you know, >> what is loyalty? you know, over the last many, several years, we've had prime minister after prime minister. i mean, many people accused rishi sunak of bringing down boris johnson. i mean , many people were i mean, many people were dismayed that boris johnson was brought down in the way that he was. i knocked on many doors. i'm not going to get into pointing the finger at people. i'm what i'm just trying to say is that this is not about the superficial thing of, well, you're not nice and you're a bit spiky and you're a bit rude. and you didn't we didn't all sing from the hymn sheet. that's not the problem. the problem is much more profound. we didn't deliver on our promises and we were not a conservative party we said we

wanted to lower immigration. we categorically did not do that. we said we wanted to lower taxation. we raised taxes. we said we were the party of common sense. and yet children were mutilated in our schools and in our nhs, on our watch. that's why we failed. not because there were a few of us who wrote a few, a few articles here and there pointing out the problem. let's let's keep that in perspective. >> i think that's a good point. and also, i think it's a good point to say that there's this talk, isn't there? now that the conservatives have to somehow lurch to the right and out. farage. farage in reform . and farage. farage in reform. and yet, actually, it would probably just be adequate to just honour your manifesto pledges. the 2019 manifesto was a pretty robust conservative manifesto that many righties could happily sign up to. the problem was that it wasn't delivered . so it's not as wasn't delivered. so it's not as if you've got this electorate crying out for extreme right wing ism. you've just got an electorate crying out for tories to do what they said they would

do. however, it's probably fair for me to say to you, well, you didn't bring down immigration, you were at the home office, so you were at the home office, so you had a role in not bringing down immigration. explain to us why it couldn't be brought down. what obstacles did you face? i mean, what was the problem? >> well, i've been over that quite a lot , so the reason why, quite a lot, so the reason why, despite best efforts, both privately , you know, and privately, you know, and otherwise, i was unable to lower immigration because i was blocked . the reality of blocked. the reality of government is that you cannot act unilaterally. you know, you might have the best idea. you might have the best idea. you might want to just even do something radical like honour, a manifesto pledge, which is what i wanted to do. but if no one else agrees with you around the cabinet table, you're not going to get very far more blocked. >> do you think, by your own colleagues, or were you blocked by civil servants saying, no, we can't do this. >> i'm not going to blame civil servants. that's the weak minister's approach. yeah minister decides and directs. and with the prime minister sign

off, policy gets determined. unfortunately as i've set out over the months, the prime minister didn't support me on the plan to lower migration, which is why immigration soared. that's why i wasn't able to cut immigration about this before. >> but obviously people watching this aren't, you know, closely following every little second of everything you've written or indeed the minutia. but are you saying the two fundamental points were he wouldn't believe in rwanda and didn't get it off on time and delayed and prevaricated, but also this issue around the echr, are those the two, you know, if this inch points here i knocked on thousands of doors during this all over the country. >> i went to help colleagues in different parts of the country, and i heard the same message everywhere i went. and people would whisper it. they were fearful of saying it. they would say something like this suella, i'm not a racist, and i'm very nervous about saying this, but immigration is too high and the illegal migrants coming across the channel is unacceptable . and

the channel is unacceptable. and i would say to them, i know you're not a racist. it's not racist to want to control our borders and people are scared about talking about it. we didn't solve that problem. we promised time and time again to lower immigration. we didn't do it. we promised time and time again to stop the boats. we didn't do it. and that's on us. and so i think that that's why we failed. this is not about lurching to the right or lurching to the right or lurching to the left. it's about simply doing what we said we would do . and that's what i'm would do. and that's what i'm talking about when it comes to credibility. we you know, we didn't leave the european convention of human rights. that would have that would have stopped the boats. that's why, you know, we did lack credibility. we said we would do whatever it took. it would take. we didn't do whatever it would. >> the argument between people who want to leave it and people who want to leave it and people who say, well, we must obey by international law that sort of you versus say, lord cameron debate. it'sjust you versus say, lord cameron debate. it's just going to continue raging. i mean, you're down to one, two, one. now, how down to one, two, one. now, how do you read the complexion of the tories that are left? you know, there's a need now to

rebuild this party, to unite this party behind someone. could be you could be kemi badenoch could be iain duncan smith at this stage, as far as anyone can tell. right. but what happens now to that grouping of 1 to 1? because people are going to have to make compromises, you know, are you going to be able to get along with caroline nokes? >> listen, we have to make a decision about what kind of party we want to be. i believe in british politics. there's space only for one conservative party and that's why we lost this election. our vote went from about 13,000,000 in 2019 to just under 7 million this week. we lost hundreds of brilliant conservative mps because of reform millions of our voters were betrayed and angry with the conservatives, and they went to an alternative reform. so i believe whoever's leading the party, whoever's in the party, needs to acknowledge this basic

truth that we are facing an existential threat from reform, and we need to change ourselves to ensure that we neutralise that threat, that we bring those people back home. >> or if you're going to get on better with richard tice and nigel farage than caroline nokes and simon hoare, why don't you just join reform ? just join reform? >> listen, this is not about which party we're in. actually, this is about what the conservative party stands for. we should be standing for, lower migration, lower taxation, common sense, more housing aspiration. that's, you know, we've got to provide hope for the next generation. we fail to build enough houses. for example, we failed to actually tackle some of the structural defects in the nhs. you know, we were voting more on pedicabs and smoking bans in the last six months than nhs. >> you're talking reform nigel farage. >> i think i'm talking like a

conservative. >> okay, but then he has out conservative. you and the tories right. he's come up with the policy platform that arguably you should have come up with and campaigned on. we've agreed on that. the conservatives have , in that. the conservatives have, in his words, become such a broad church that they're not practising the same religion anymore. do you agree with that? >> i want us to welcome people who support the agenda of low tax, low immigration, leaving the european court of human rights more, building more houses , empowering young people houses, empowering young people and being proud of our country. >> you see, the point i'm making is dissent can be unifying. you're not necessarily going to be able to achieve that because you've got dissent in the party. but these are all of the things that reform want. so have you ever considered defecting to reform ? >> reform? >> gosh, listen, i'm in the conservative party. i've been in the conservative party since i was a teenager. i'm one of those, geeks who joined when i was about, i think 15 or 16. my mum was a councillor. i blame her, she persuaded me to join. listen, my heart is in the

conservative party, my. i've grown up in the conservative party. i've fought so many elections. i've been elected just now as a conservative. >> are never going to outright farage, are they? >> well, as i said, this is not about lurching to the right. this is just about doing what you say you're going to do. we lacked credibility. we kind of tried to talk tough during the election. and actually for several years we've talked tough . several years we've talked tough. we've beaten our chests and we tried to sound right wing, but our actual record of delivery has been one of statism. failed liberalism, high tax, high migration, and anything but tough talk. and that dissonance, was pretty obvious. we couldn't. >> we couldn't. >> we couldn't. >> i'm asking people reform because you're clearly dissatisfied. you weren't happy with rishi sunak. he fired you. i mean, that wasn't ideal for you either. you must have had some point over the course of the last six weeks where you flirted in your own mind with the idea of joining reform. you sort of said you could work with

nigel farage. so have you actually ever considered just enough of all this, enough of the blues and going over to the turquoises? >> is that their colour? i'm not quite sure if it's turquoise or teal or you're dodging the question. >> aquamarine. ever? have you ever thought about joining reform? yes, i have looked at the reform party because i have been listening to what they're saying, and i have met many, many reform voters during this campaign, people who are lifelong conservatives. >> and i've listened to them and they've said, we've backed the party for decades, and we are furious with your party, suella and we're going to reform. and i've been listening to them. they're not, you know , attacking they're not, you know, attacking reform voters as being racist or thugs is not the right attitude demeaning? that party is not the right attitude. we don't have any god given entitlement to exist or to those voters. we need to be humble. we need to be humble in the face of the very

strong feedback we've got from our own core voters. millions of people in this election. and if we don't stop and listen to what they're saying, which is very, very clear and very simple, well, let's put it this way. we are going to fail. >> i think that you want to run for the leadership, but you don't want to tell me that right now. okay? you might have competition from people who are more moderate. if somebody more moderate wins the leadership and not you. and let's be honest, when you did run for leader before you did, you were eliminated after the second round. so you've got to build up a really strong caucus of support to get onto the ballot paper to go to the membership, you must appreciate that. so question one if a moderate does lead the conservative party would you serve under them because you're saying it's all gonein because you're saying it's all gone in the wrong direction? if we go in a rishi sunak direction, you say it's, going to be, completely self—indulgent. rishi doesn't get it. you say you said that the tories have failed in office and deserve this result, you know, so you might end up with a

leader who advocates a more sunak approach to a suella approach. can you serve under such a person? >> listen, these kind of discussions are so premature. camilla, with respect, as i said, we're right now in the place of the aftermath of a devastating result. sure, tory mps are, you know, demoralised. our members are exhausted. everyone's just waking up from a shattering disaster and we can't make decisions like that. that's why what i'm trying to say is we all need to take stock. we don't have the burden of government right now. we don't need to rush into a knee jerk reaction or a rushed leadership, decision. so you're happy we need to remain as leader for the main time. >> the main objective now is for all of us to come to an agreement on the diagnosis of the problem. rishi sunak. then can we fix it? >> so how long should we have rishi sunak in place? >> while you get those details that are going to be sorted out in due course? >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> weeks or months, because you

listen, quite a few tories are saying to me, we need to get our heads together. i spoke to iain duncan smith from my telegraph podcast on friday. he was like, just take stock. somebody's got to lead the party. while you do that. so are you happy for rishi sunak to be there for a few more weeks, a couple of months, three months, while you're all organise yourself? >> of course we need some stability and rishi sunak has announced that he's going to resign, but he has to stay in just to maintain an ordering. a functional party. but we need to also, you know, we can't, you know, have this introspective soul searching going on for you know, indefinitely. we also need to get fighting fit and start opposing the labour party. because i tell you what, they are going to use this window whilst we are navel gazing to, you know, bring in pretty harmful things to our country, whether it's on immigration, whether it's on immigration, whether it's on immigration, whether it's tax . we've already whether it's tax. we've already seen the keir starmer scrap the rwanda plan. >> who do you want to be having the conversations with in the tea room to get this party back on track? >> who are you talking to each other? >> are you? we're all talking to each other. >> i've had lots of conversations. >> i'm not going to disclose who

i'm to, talking but i'm pretty very supportive and i'm very encouraged. >> do you have a dialogue with her at all? >> i'm very encouraged by a lot of the conversations i'm having with lots of colleagues at the moment. >> you know, at the moment, as i say, everyone is very, very disappointed and just sad. you know, a lot of my colleagues, as i said, have just lost their jobs. you know, i know this. you know, everyone loves the drama of politics and it's a blue team or the red team, but there's a massive human impact. these are people's jobs. these are their livelihoods. for many of my colleagues, this came as a total and utter shock. through no fault of their own, they were brilliant community champions. they were embedded in their constituencies. they'd worked for decades. experts in their fields, brilliant campaigners, you know, and out of a job overnight just like that. it's been a shock for many people, and i do think we need to accept that human impact on them, their teams, their families , but also teams, their families, but also regroup. but i say as i said, the most pressing need right now is for us to acknowledge the problem and agree on the problem. and that's what concerns me the most. there are still those in my party who are

saying we need to do more of what we've just been doing, we need to cut out members. for example, in the selection of the new leader, there is a serious effort to go down well with the grassroots in the party. you know, your view is, you know, there's a serious effort afoot in the party by certain, groups to cut out the members and disenfranchise members, and they want to ensure that mps, you know, regain the right and the exclusive right to choose the leader. that would be totally devastating to our party. >> will it be devastating to you because you might not be as popular with mps as you will be with members, so you certainly don't want a leadership. >> well, this is not about self mps. >> this is about the members. our members have already been, disenfranchised with the selection of many candidates dunng selection of many candidates during this recent campaign. they've been the foot soldiers in what has been a brutal battle. and they have been ignored time and time again. members did not choose rishi sunak. >> no suella can we bring this conversation full circle by me saying this to you? you haven't

confirmed that you want to stand as leader, but you haven't ruled it out either. should we settle on that? because i don't see you ruling this out. >> listen. you're desperate. you're not going to give up, are you? >> no, i don't give up. i'm afraid i'm a dog with a bone. >> i am. i'm having lots of conversations with colleagues. i'm very flattered and very encouraged by what people are saying to me. but this is a really difficult time for our party. there are lots of things to think about. we need to agree on the diagnosis of the problem before we reach a resolution on the prescription. >> like a leadership contender. so you're not ruling it out . so you're not ruling it out. >> i'm having lots of conversations and reflecting suella braverman. >> thank you very much indeed. not least after a very difficult week to come in and speak so candidly with me about what needs to happen next for the tories. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> well, we're going to be discussing that interview with our political panel, james heale and matthew laza will be back in the studio to discuss all stay

back to the camilla tominey show on gb news james heale at matthew laza are back. you're loving this, aren't you? absolutely loving it. i'm sorry, igasped absolutely loving it. i'm sorry, i gasped so much with suella braverman. we've only got five minutes, but it was worth it. you riff on this interview and what you thought ? what you thought? >> absolutely. well, what we're seeing right now is a bid to define the past. what's happened, what went wrong. because that all talks about the future. who defines the past is going to be sets the future. so this is what morgan mcsweeney and the keir starmer did very successfully in 2019. they talked about jeremy corbyn right now, what suella braverman and other people are doing across other people are doing across other rival media outlets. this morning is all about defining what went wrong this week, and therefore they can then start to rebuild and talk about the future future contenders. there was some truth in what suella braverman was saying. some of her analysis, i think, was spot on. there were definitely lot of mistakes under rishi sunak's regime. did but i will be interested to see kind of how her colleagues look at the things around competence and delivery as they make their

decision in the future. well i think you're right. >> it is about defining the past before you can define the future. but i was really struck that she didn't take the attack to labour until about 15 minutes into the interview. and bearing into the interview. and bearing in mind that in this massively reduced parliamentary party of 121, it's all going to be about being an attack dog against labour and really harrying the labour government. if you're going to make an impact, because obviously the new government is going to be the story. i think that all the leadership contenders are going to need to show that they can take the fight to starmer, you know more than they can take the fight to their own colleagues. yeah. over their own colleagues. yeah. over the cate hollis 121 tory party actually unite. >> i mean, can you get any caucus of sort of mutual agreement between caroline nokes and suella braverman genuinely chaps? >>iit chaps? >> i it would be a really difficult challenge. and i think the lesson the tories last time in opposition was the often tore each other apart. and i think that personally wins. this time is not guaranteed of being the leader in five years time because, you know, you've got the lib dem threat in the south, you've got some, you know, one nafions you've got some, you know, one nations who love the european court of human rights suella braverman that interview, they just slipped that in saying, yeah, we want to leave the echr.

well, actually that's a minority view in the party. yeah, absolutely. you know, and of course, that would be the good friday agreement. there's a huge thing. so you know as much about the kind of things the right love to talk about. it's also things around like inflation, the nhs, public services. so there's all these different conversations and the actual party machine has really rusted away. after 14 years in government, i mean then of course, the labour will be taking the national conversation under public services and those issues which favour the one nafion issues which favour the one nation group. >> but that's obviously in some ways because they're going to say the focus should be on there. i just think in terms of not only the new leader may not be the new leader. i doubt there'll be 121 tory mps at the time of the next election. not because it will be going up in byelections. i think that's going to be quite tough for them. but because there'll be defections to both the lib dems and to reform less than a few. yeah. >> who do you think? >> who do you think? >> well, yeah, she is such a reformer in many respects. >> i think what's interesting about it, like you're basically augned about it, like you're basically aligned with tice and farage. so just go and join them. but obviously she says she's a tory through and through and i respect that to was talking to one reform long time watcher yesterday and he said i doubt those five mps will be all reform mps by the end of the

next parliament. >> you know, given the way in which ukip and all the different splits and people have gone off. so i think there could be many different blocs forming all sorts of things. now they're all in parliament together. and of course, i think the tories need to remember they're not guaranteed a hearing. you know, they've they're no longer the most interesting party anymore. >> it's going to be listening. this is the other thing which we listens to. anyone in opposition. >> absolutely. look i remember labourin >> absolutely. look i remember labour in 2010 when you know, the i mean, you know, literally nobody was interested at all in what was going on just after the change of the change of power. and i think, you know, i think it's really interesting that how are they going to get themselves back on the national conversation? they need to come up with some forward thinking policies. in contrast to labour, oddly, ed davey today has been pointing out he's been sticking absolutely clearly on carers and the carer agenda, saying labour didn't mention carers, wants his manifesto politics from him. absolutely. he's got to focus. >> he's the only person who's spoken about caring and social care. it's such an important issue. >> he's less than 50 mps off overtaking the tories back in 97, the tories were way ahead of the lib dems. now it's much closer. we're in kind of a four party system in some respects. and so while labour gets on and does all these sort of things in the next 12 months, the tories really have got to stop navel gazing and actually sort of take the fight to labour. >> who do you think both of you

is? the candidate in the tories that keir starmer would fear the most at the despatch box in the absence of penny morgan? >> absolutely. that's the question. >> it would have been penny mordaunt and indeed her very impressive blow dry james. she's was really good at just taking the fight to labour and she had some great lines and she was very good. on a thursday when she was leader of the commons, she was leader of the commons, she was leader of the commons, she was just what was needed was an attack dog. somebody sharpened the best. both of you. first of all, james, who do you think is the best person the tories can can have the leading them right now? >> i think there's a big question marks over all of them. i think the favourite right now is kemi badenoch. i think that someone who's been in government can be seen as a team player, but has also got a fight in her and willing to take that. i think the tories want someone who makes them feel good. right now she's a bit too feisty though. >> i think that flies off the handle sometimes. whoa, sledgehammer to crack a nut here. it can be. >> well, i think the other criticism, of course, rishi is quite technocratic, wasn't he? so sometimes you need someone a bit more political, a bit more partisan, a bit of a pugilist. >> and so she's got that. she was a puppet of ghost, which i also, i always found rather misogynistic. actually, any woman in politics has to be puppeteered by a man. matthew. who do you think? yeah i think, i think there's one.

>> in the absence of penny, there's one person that labours there's one person that labours the labour would fear. i think kemi is a good performer. labour in its heart will think, oh gosh, if they go for a one nafion gosh, if they go for a one nation person, that makes it difficult for us to do what they did to iain duncan smith and william hague, which is portray them as, as, as, as right wing, as on the extreme. so labour will be hoping the labour strategy will be hoping it's one, you know, it's suella, it's pretty, it's somebody like that who they can portray a proper raisi, they can portray as, you know, the posters where, where they morph william hague into thatcher, that sort of thing. >> i think the people who are going to fight this one are people who ran last time, two years time. and i think the next leadership contest is a new generation coming through. >> all right. great stuff. james heale matthew laza. thank you. brilliant analysis this morning. thank you very much indeed. coming up next, we're going to be discussing a brilliant book about winston churchill, one of my own heroes. no, that's unpopular these days with the woke brigade. but i don't care . woke brigade. but i don't care. we'll be discussing that in just a minute. don't go

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm delighted to be joined now by military historian and author peter caddick—adams, who has written this book about winston churchill. and it's the first in a series of books about british prime ministers. you arguably started with the best, peter. i mean, is that a fair assumption? often voted as the greatest briton that ever lived? >> yeah, i mean, it was it was a no brainer, really, and quite clearly, he is the greatest briton who ever lived and certainly the greatest british politician who ever lived. >> what do you think he would make of recent events? >> i mean, the labour landslide, the demise of the conservatives? >> well, i mean, he came he really came into power, into government in a liberal landslide in 1906. and of course, he was booted out in a labour landslide in 1945. so these are no strangers to him. i mean, he was a parliamentary creature. he beat all over this. he wasn't of the television age, but, you wouldn't be able to

keep him out of your studio. >> no. >> no. >> can you imagine if you could go back to those days? >> he would be dominating it. >> he would be dominating it. >> can you imagine winston churchill on gb news? the mind boggles. but, i mean , look, his boggles. but, i mean, look, his is a quite complicated legacy . is a quite complicated legacy. it has been unpicked by some particular on the left who have wanted to sort of accuse him of war crimes and all sorts of other misdemeanours and suggest that he isn't the hero that he was. i mean, what's the truth? when you were researching this book, what surprised you most about what you learned about him, what you think is most misunderstood about him? >> well , he's such misunderstood about him? >> well, he's such a wide ranging character. he has a life outside politics. and not just one, but many. i mean, he's a bricklayer , an aviator. he wins bricklayer, an aviator. he wins the nobel prize for literature. he writes 15 million words, which is 30 books in his lifetime. astonishing, isn't it? you know, never mind the polymath. totally, of the kind. i mean, my first memory was his funeral, a five protesting in a long, cold queue , which gives

long, cold queue, which gives the game away how old i am. but i mean, that he's a mocker, he completely dominates the certainly the first half of the 20th century at cabinet level, and, you know, for a very, very long period of time, and we can't say that about many other people . we can't say that about people. we can't say that about any anyone else since who's lasted that long. >> and what motivated most, do you him most do you think? i mean, obviously there was an ego there , but at the same time, there, but at the same time, i mean , it's just huge, huge mean, it's just huge, huge amounts of courage . you make amounts of courage. you make a point in the book about the influence on him of his first world war experience. >> yeah , yeah, >> yeah, yeah, >> yeah, yeah, >> i think, well, to begin with, his first, sort of influence is his first, sort of influence is his father, because his father rose very young to be leader of the house and chancellor , but the house and chancellor, but died very early when winston was very young. so part of the drive was he felt he would die young as well and had to achieve or out achieve his father outmatch

his father, and that's a huge driver. and we see it with other people who's one of whose parents die young. margaret for thatcher example. yes, so i think that sort of sustains him. but the real person who's written out of his life really, only gets one mention in one of his second world war books. is clementine his wife? and she's the tower of strength. she's the one who says in the middle of the blitz, winston, you're not as nice as you used to be. that's right. things like that. so she's always there, and, so i've tried to sort of redress the balance a bit and show that it's not just him, it's the wider family that sort of raise him up and prop him up and, and sort of sustain him when, i mean, he has doubts and moments of depression, like we all do. black dog, >> what do you think was his finest hour? we were together, weren't we? and we did some of the, commentary of the commemorations to mark the anniversary of d—day recently. i mean, was it d—day? is it something else? peter, what do

you think? >> well, i argue that, may june 1940 is often , labelled as his 1940 is often, labelled as his finest hour. i think it's the finest hour. i think it's the finest hour. i think it's the finest hour of the british people. and his finest hour is probably d—day, because he sets up , a return to normandy . he up, a return to normandy. he organises all the, troops, inspires everybody , at inspires everybody, at a military level. he builds the coalition. and the 6th of june, 1944, we couldn't have done on our own . and the coalition that our own. and the coalition that returns to france is largely one that he has built. and it wouldn't have happened without him. so i actually think 1944 is his finest year. >> and favourite quote i mean, we may have been reminded of war in light of the recent result of a 34% share of the vote then heralding this labour landslide. that, quote about the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. but which one is one of your favourite quotes? >> well, i mean, you have to go

back to his 1940 speeches, and as my good friend andrew roberts observed, they are all punctuated or made with very short anglo—saxon shakespearean words. we will fight, no. nothing complicated . nothing complicated. highfaluting. very, very simple engush highfaluting. very, very simple english strung together and repeated. yes. and that that's what makes all the difference, i think. and we can all call one of those to mind whatever age. and i think they they still send shivers down my spine. >> they do too. if you listen to the speeches again, they're absolutely awesome. and so is this book. peter, here you are. here it is again, winston churchill , the first. who are churchill, the first. who are you doing next, >> the next one is harold wilson. >> harold wilson. all right. great. so it's one the first of a series. thank you very much indeed for coming in. and talking to me about that. thank you to all of you, not just for watching this show, but, by the way, for watching our election night coverage. i hope you enjoyed it. i'm not back next week. i'm taking a little cheeky week. i'm taking a little cheeky week off, so tom harwood is

going to be stepping in for me. coming up next of course, is michael portillo. and i think we're going to have some weather in between. then have a good day. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . solar sponsors of weather on. gb. news >> good morning. welcome to your gb news. weather update from the met office . it's a case of met office. it's a case of sunshine and showers. still feeling rather cool today, but it's going to be an unsettled start for some of us on monday. but back to this morning. there's some mixed of sunny spells, but also some showers that fed in from the west. they're moving their way eastwards, turning heavy at times, possibly thundery across parts of southern scotland into northern england and central england as well drier further across scotland still with a few showers but some brighter spells here too. we've got lighter winds around as well today so that will help lift the temperatures just slightly 18,

possibly 19 degrees and feeling a touch warmer in scotland too. as we go through sunday evening. showers still continuing for many of us, but they'll start fading away. so across scotland, many places further towards the east, seeing a few showers, some late evening sunshine coming to in the west across northern ireland, northern parts of england as well. sunshine and some heavy showers still continuing, but there will be some late sunshine in between here with a few showers still breaking out, but they'll generally start fading as we go through this evening, and more so overnight sunday into monday. so clearer spells developing more widely, cloud melting away and that will allow for some mist and fog patches to develop underneath the lighter winds, but also allow temperatures to fall so it actually is going to be quite a fresh start to monday morning temperatures in the towns and cities holding up. but in rural spots possibly dipping, dipping into the low single figures to start monday. it's generally a fresh start, but a

bright start out there for most of us. plenty of sunshine on offer first thing, but we'll start to see cloud building in from the west with outbreaks of rain here, so it's going to be quite a damp start here. showers affecting northern parts where they could be heavy, possibly thundery with temperatures around 19 or 20 degrees, but by. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb

>> very good morning to you and welcome to sunday with ben leo stepping in for michael portillo this week, i hope the next two hours of debates, culture and world affairs will keep you tapped on and tuned in right

through to midday. now, a week is a long time in politics, of course, and we now have a new government led by sir keir starmer . government led by sir keir starmer. i'll be joined by a punchy panel to unpick all the best moments of the election campaign so far. and did you see it last night? england sailed through to the semi—finals of euro 2024 on penalties. we'll be diving into the latest sports news with broadcaster aidan magee, not forgetting as well the british grand prix today, which i'm very much looking forward to at silverstone and stateside. is joe biden forward to at silverstone and stateside. isjoe biden biding stateside. is joe biden biding his time? a number of reports this week suggest the president is , quote, seriously considering is, quote, seriously considering leaving the election race. doctor jan leaving the election race. doctorjan halper hayes will doctor jan halper hayes will share her thoughts shortly . and, share her thoughts shortly. and, of course, arts editor of the express, stefan kiriasis , will express, stefan kiriasis, will be here to talk us through his latest theatrical adventures. before all that, your news headunes before all that, your news headlines with ray addison . headlines with ray addison. >> thanks, ben. 11:01. the prime minister is beginning a uk tour as he tries to reset the

relationship between westminster