live in enfield two and sir keir starmer. he's gone to washington for the 75th anniversary of nato . for the 75th anniversary of nato. but can we trust labour when it comes to our defence? back to bafics comes to our defence? back to basics. let's ask do we need to spend more on our defence and almost half of conservative party members think they should merge with nigel farage's reform uk. is that a good idea or an absolute recipe for disaster? and, france , they're in yet more

and, france, they're in yet more political turmoil . but whatever political turmoil. but whatever government they form, britain will have to work with them to stop the boats. will the far left form a government and what would that mean for britain and the new culture secretary lisa nandy has said that the era of the culture wars is over, what makes her think that? and england play the netherlands in the european championship semi—final tonight. can we get to the final of the euros ? to the final of the euros? all right. we've got a lot coming up this evening. we've got aaron bastani, we've got peter hitchens with me all hour. but first let's get the latest news headunes first let's get the latest news headlines with polly . headlines with polly. >> emily, thanks very much indeed. and good evening to you. well, the very latest from the gb newsroom is that emergency services are at a cemetery in

north london tonight in the hunt for kyle clifford, who's wanted over the murder of the wife and two daughters of bbc racing commentator john two daughters of bbc racing commentatorjohn hunt. police found the three women dead aged 25, 28 and 61, just before 7:00 last night in what they believe was a targeted attack. the cemetery has been closed off and an air ambulance has been seen nearby. car clifford is believed to have been part of the british army for a short period. two years ago. residents who live close to the murder scene itself have described the incident as tragic and disturbing . well, in tragic and disturbing. well, in other news today, sir keir starmer has said he wants to use the nato summit in washington dc to reset relations with world leaders and send a message to russia's president, vladimir putin. the summit marks sir keir's debut on the world stage as prime minister, less than a week after the labour landslide, which installed him at number

10. he's due to hold talks with joe biden at the white house later on today. sir keir starmer says the summit is an opportunity to continue galvanising support for ukraine. >> the change of government makes no difference to the support that we will provide . support that we will provide. we've been united on this when we were in opposition and it was really important to me to be able to affirm that face to face in the meeting. i did speak to him immediately after i was sworn in as prime minister last week, and so we build on that here at nato at this important summit, because it is an opportunity for our labour government to reaffirm our commitment to nato . commitment to nato. >> the prime minister, speaking in washington a short time ago. well, the actor george clooney is urging the president of the united states to step down as the democratic nominee. george clooney, who hosted a huge hollywood fundraiser for joe biden last month, gathering a record $28 million, appears to have changed his mind afterjoe

biden's disastrous performance in the first televised presidential debate against donald trump. now, news here at home, a second man's been arrested as part of an investigation into a small boat people smuggling network. the national crime agency says the 25 year old iraqi national was apprehended this morning at an address in preston in lancashire. he was detained on suspicion of facilitating illegal migration and obtaining leave to remain in the uk by deception. it follows the arrest of an iranian national in same place in may and news from liverpool. two children from a primary school on merseyside that's been dealing with an infection have died. it's understood the children from milstead primary school were aged five and six years old. the uk health security agency says it's been looking into a number of cases of the parasitic infection giardia at the school, but experts say it's unlikely the deaths are related to the

outbreak , and detectives have outbreak, and detectives have issued an image of a man they want to talk to after a stabbing on a south london bus . police on a south london bus. police say the victim, a man in his 50s, was attacked on the route 64 bus in croydon in the early hours of this morning. he'd confronted a fellow passenger over placing his feet on the seat, and was stabbed several times in the leg. anyone with any information has been asked to come forward and contact the metropolitan police . now, as i'm metropolitan police. now, as i'm sure you're aware , thousands of sure you're aware, thousands of england fans are in dortmund for tonight's euro 2024 semi—final against the netherlands. but the brits are expected to be outnumbered . it's thought there outnumbered. it's thought there could be four times more opposition supporters out tonight. gareth southgate's side are pushing for a place in the final against spain, and these england fans told us they expect a win . a win. >> easy game. i say easy, probably going to be pens, but obviously we'll win because that's what we're good at. you've seen the last game with switzerland. you know baby food.

easy. >> yeah i'm excited for the semi—finals. it's going well so far. hopefully it can get better. >> i won't take nothing away from the dutch. they got van dijk, that's about it. but you know we'll give it the best i mean england expects those are the latest gb news headlines for now i'm polly middlehurst i'm back in an hour. >> see you then for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . slash alerts. >> good evening. welcome to dewbs& co with me emily carver. i'm standing in for michelle tonight and joining me until seven is my panel. we have the columnist at the mail on sunday, peter hitchens, and also the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani. please do throughout the show, get your views in at gbnews.com/yoursay is the way to get in touch , but is the way to get in touch, but we're going to start the show with an update from gb news

reporter charlie peters on this gruesome triple murder. where doesit gruesome triple murder. where does it stand currently this manhunt? >> well, kyle clifford, 26 years of age. the chief suspect in this targeted triple murder as the police have described it in bushey in hertfordshire last night, is currently under the focus of a significant police manhunt involving both the metropolitan police and the force in hertfordshire. now that hunt has focused around a cemetery in enfield in the last few hours we've seen paramedics armed response units including counter—terrorist specialist firearms officers and the london fire brigade all around a cemetery in the hillyfields area of enfield. this is coming some 24 hours after the reports first raised of a triple murder in bushey and hertfordshire, involving a crossbow. so we understand that the police are there. footage showing the area where the police have swarmed to

does demonstrate some debris on the ground, aware in the area where the police are searching andindeed where the police are searching and indeed a couple of forensics officers have been seen there. no update on the current state of that manhunt, but significant resources now swarming into that location. the significance of the crossbow being involved in this attack has involved the armed response vehicles throughout the manhunt for both offensive and defensive operations police officers that gb news has spoken to today say that a crossbow is a copper's worst nightmare, and the armed response vehicles are there to protect themselves, but also to deal with any threat that they pose. but as it stands, that manhunt circling in a cemetery in the hillyfields area in enfield, well, thank you very much indeed, charlie. >> please do come back if you hear any more updates on that manhunt. thank you very much , manhunt. thank you very much, charlie peters there. well, let's get straight back into the

debate of the day. one of them, sir keir starmer , he's gone to sir keir starmer, he's gone to washington for the 75th anniversary of nato. the question is, can we trust labour when it comes to defence? there's been a lot of talk about whether keir starmer is committed to increasing defence spending. he hasn't put a time frame on it, he hasn't put a time limit, not even a goal really. he's talked in general terms. he's talking a lot about a strategic review that could go on for months potentially, but just to focus on one thing that perhaps is a little bit trivial before we get into the meat of defence is, i don't know about you, but have you noticed, aaron, i'll start with you . aaron, i'll start with you. aaron, i'll start with you. aaron, have you noticed all this rather bizarre, fawning coverage of our prime minister in recent days? i'm just going to give you a hint of some of the headlines i've seen, or a taste of them. anyway the metro is saying now, forget dishy rishi. keir starmer is the downing street daddy, and there were lots of love hearts. caitlin moran in the times, a columnist there, keir starmer has turbocharged my arousal

levels. i feel fruity and zoe strimpel in the spectator is asking how come the starmer's are so sexy? starmer is the first prime minister with whom i would happily consider a saucy affair. it's a bit much, isn't it? >> it's a bit unedifying , isn't >> it's a bit unedifying, isn't it? i think if my wife or partner wrote that, i'd say, look, aim a bit higher, he's not an unattractive man. i mean, he's in his 60s. you see pictures of when he was younger. he was perfectly, you know, pleasing young person. but, it's a bit fatuous and silly and, look, you get all sorts of complaints from the print media. people won't buy what we publish. well, if you're going to publish rubbish like that, then i'm not really surprised. good riddance. i mean , there's a good riddance. i mean, there's a serious point to this, though, isn't there, peter? >> that we have this fawning coverage. >> this isn't a serious point at all. i think there's a complete, complete drivel. >> can we trust the media to scrutinise this man if they kick things off with fawning coverage over how sexy he is? >> well, probably not, but then ihave >> well, probably not, but then i have to say, i'm not sure one

would have sought for really profound political analysis from any of those directions . well, any of those directions. well, okay, there we go. >> shall we get on being polite? should we get on to your being polite ? should we get on to polite? should we get on to defence then? aaron, what do you make of how keir starmer is handung make of how keir starmer is handling this? of course he's at the nato summit, a massive day for him as prime minister. his first international summit of the kind, this 2.5. do you think he'll go there? do you think he'll go there? do you think he'll commit to that properly? >> i think he will. i mean, i don't agree with it, i think that this singular obsession that this singular obsession that he's meant to have on the economy is the right way to go about things, because, of course, if you have 2% of a larger economy, that's significant. 2.5% of a stagnant economy isn't that helpful? >> so you do want defence spending up, then? >> no. i think that we need to be investing as much money as possible in revenue generating assets that help grow the economy. and we can talk about energy, we can talk about high speed rail. these are things that you can get broad political consensus behind. we've had stagnating gdp per capita for 15

years. so a larger share of a stagnant economy doesn't really help anyone. i think there's 2.5. thing is really it's more about getting political credibility with the media to be in nato. generally speaking, you're meant to be paying in 2. >> and what are you suggesting we should focus on energy production, transport infrastructure? i don't know, education, whatever else? >> well, primarily infrastructure and energy . yeah. infrastructure and energy. yeah. energy is so expensive. >> if we find ourselves at war. >> if we find ourselves at war. >> well, so nato members, generally speaking, are meant to be paying 2.2% of gdp. so 2% of their aggregate economies towards defence. that's the idea. and of course, in 2018, donald trump went completely crazy. he said europeans don't spend enough on defence. we're basically funding your defence, change your tune. and actually since then, believe it or not, european defence spending has increased by about 50, partly because of russia, but also partly because of the threat made by trump. and britain actually was on the higher end of that stuff. so i, i don't really understand this point. and also we waste so much money with military procurement that i think you want to sort that out,

get the economy growing. and sure have the conversation after that. about 2.5. >> peter hitchens would you agree with that? >> gosh. i would approach it from a different direction. your first question, can we trust labour on defence? is a question from the 1980s, when the labour party had been very heavily infiltrated by the left, was considered by a lot of people to be sympathetic to the soviet union, a communist state which then dominated eastern europe and threatened western europe with gigantic conventional forces and nuclear weapons. at that point, no, you couldn't trust labour on defence, and the electorate tended not to. since the end of the cold war. it's a non question. and indeed since the end of the cold war, the labour party, though still crammed with ultra leftists of all kinds, has completely switched over from its previous soppy switched over from its previous soppy semi—passive position of being against nuclear weapons to being against nuclear weapons to being fervently in favour of britain. maintaining this vast, cold war superpower nuclear deterrent unusable and probably

also useless because when we try to use it, it falls in the sea. they are now committed to almost all discussion on defence, like almost discussion on foreign policy in this country is so bottomlessly, puerile and ignorant that it's very, very hard to know where to start. what are we defending ourselves against? for what reason? what is the fundamental basis of our policy? why do we suck up to the americans so much? why do we still continue to behave as if we were a global, ultra rich superpower instead of a actually rather indebted poor country on the north—west of europe? all these are major defence questions which nobody asks. and i'm asking them, and i think that's what we should be discussing. so also, what is nato for? why are we in it? why is it even still exist? >> right . okay. your views on >> right. okay. your views on nato, aaron. >> well, it's done many stupid things in the past. it's called the north atlantic treaty organisation, and yet it's got involved in multiple wars, nowhere near the north atlantic, libya and afghanistan being two. >> would you have us out of it? >> would you have us out of it? >> it wouldn't be my political

priority. i wouldn't start a political bunfight over nato. no i do think that there are huge questions to be asked about why we are in a defence alliance as europe with 450 million people. we have two nuclear states, france, the uk . why we need to france, the uk. why we need to be dependent on the united states in the manner that we are. you have the head of nato command is an american. it's an american general there in europe. and look, it's all well and good when you have a what are you suggesting there? well, so when you have a us president in france. >> yeah. having a nuclear deterrent, what we sort of team up with france. >> you could do i actually think that in conversations about trident, for instance, those warheads are serviced in america. they are not usable. if the americans don't want us to use them. and i think it's sensible if you favour a nuclear deterrent. i don't understand why britain can't make and service its own warheads here in the uk. create jobs for brits in this country. >> the warheads, the war as we do, though their service increasingly to american designs. but it's the rockets that have to be serviced in georgia. but it's the thing is not, the thing is , is a is a

not, the thing is, is a is a cold war superpower weapon . and cold war superpower weapon. and israel, which has, i think, lives in a much more dangerous neighbourhood and can claim to be in much more risk, doesn't have anything remotely resembling the colossal nature of unrwa. and we could have a much more modest nuclear defence and still be a nuclear power. and we could then spend the money which we saved on maintaining the conventional defences we no longer have. and our navy is a melancholy remnant. our army is tiny, our air force, well, we spend more money, i think, on housing benefit than we do on the on the air force, but it is not very good. our conventional forces, which are the ones you tend actually to need in moments of conflict, are very poor, poorly maintained and are losing very badly in terms of not so much recruitment as retention of experience , particularly nco experience, particularly nco level people who are vital to maintaining the strength of and the quality of training of any service. that's where we're all falling down. but no one ever talks about this. it's all, oh well, we support trident, so we must be good on defence. and yet when trident is tested, the most

recent two times it's tested, one of the rockets went wild and shot off in the general direction of the united states from the waters off florida. and the other one just rose into the air briefly and then plopped into the sea and not even sure that it works. >> we'd be less safe without it. >> we'd be less safe without it. >> well, we i don't think that it keeps us safe any safer than it keeps us safe any safer than it would be for to us maintain. we are, after all, we're capable of building nuclear weapons to maintain a few which we could put in in aircraft. some submarine launched cruise missiles, something much more modest than what we have. the thing about nuclear weapons is they're not actually there to be used. they're there to maintain a threat level which prevents wars from starting. so you could be much more modest with them than we are. our system was designed to be able to penetrate moscow's extremely powerful anti—ballistic missile defences. anti —ballistic missile defences. and anti—ballistic missile defences. and that's that's basically what it was developed for very, very expensively. whether it's still could i don't know, but i don't think that's really a necessary purpose for it anymore. >> and what about nato? because

most people i would hazard to guess , believe it's essential guess, believe it's essential for our collective security. if one country is within war, we all come to their defence. we rally around. is that not surely a good thing? is it not a good thing that we're partners in a way, with the united states in order to keep us safe? >> i'm not wholly opposed. >> i'm not wholly opposed. >> preferable to being, you know. sure. going it alone. >> i'm not opposed to the idea of collective defence, but afghanistan wasn't a war of defence. libya wasn't a war of defence. libya wasn't a war of defence. and i think even advocates of nato would accept there's been a massive drift in its in its mission and its purpose in recent years, and i think that should be corrected. all i would say is that europe needs to be responsible for european security. and the idea that we can depend on the americans. we'll just listen to what donald trump says. he disagrees with that. and i think there's some wisdom there. and as long as you've got a president who is sensitive to the needs of europe and actually wants to help europe and secure europe, you're fine the minute you don't, well , europe, you're fine the minute you don't, well, you europe, you're fine the minute you don't, well , you saw europe, you're fine the minute you don't, well, you saw in the primaries recently donald trump saying if people don't pay their way, let let russia invade them, i don't care. and of course,

he's being hyperbolic, but the point there is europeans should look after europeans is to russia. >> do pay their way, don't they, in terms of their gdp, because they're most at risk from most of the invasion? most of them do. so it was just a it was just a threat, surely, just to, well, most people to cough up more. >> most of them do. >> most of them do. >> germany states are sick of spending so much. most of them do. >> germany, for instance, actually pays very little for such a large economy. germany until very recently. historical reasons. yeah, of course. and understandable reasons. but germany had a very, very small military. i found it quite amusing when the i think it was the prime minister of luxembourg said to trump, how dare you offend our 1000 service personnel in luxembourg? well, well, indeed. >> and iceland, of course, has no soldiers at all. but the. but it was nonetheless an important member of nato because it's a fixed, non—moving aircraft carrier. but the real questions again, which need to be discussed raised, interestingly enough, by none other than nigel farage, was the policy of expanding nato eastwards and intelligent policy in the first place? now that we've done it, are we are we handling the what many people regard as resultant

crisis with any particular intelligence? it's me. the answer is absolutely not. and the problem with alliances such as nato is that they they depend upon their credibility. anybody can give a guarantee. a famously britain gave a guarantee to poland in 1939, in april, that we would come to their defence if they were attacked and we didn't do anything about it at all when it came to it. the wider, the wider, the more widespread and more all. embracing the nato guarantee is, the more questionable it becomes, because the less likely it is, particularly as the question which was always asked when it was founded, will the united states sacrifice chicago for paris? and the answer is quite possibly not. and you have to be aware of this tension. it's always there's a recent very good history of nato which has come out, which which which explores over and over again this tension between between the united states and the european allies in nato over whether they really believe the united states is going to rush to their aid in time of trouble. if you want that to happen, you need to

craft an alliance which is credible. the other thing you might nato is everyone goes on and on about its fantastic guarantee. you read its guarantee, it's empty. it doesn't say we will rush to your aid with every weapon at our command. if you're attacked, it simply does not say that. it says if you if you're attacked, then we will do something. but it doesn't say what? >> well, read it, read it, read it sometime. small print m atters. matters. >> the american, the americans would never have signed it if it were more specific. >> we all saw the barrage of criticism that nigel farage we did. yeah. for making those comments about nato and russia. immediately. it felt as if the whole media establishment was on his back, calling him a putin apologist. yeah, well, some of you might think that's fair. others may not. i'm going to get to some views after the break, but we're also going to be talking about this new survey, cause, nearly half of tory members apparently would like to see reform uk and the conservatives merged together into one big party. should they

right at 624. welcome back to dewbs& co with me. emily carver. i am standing in for michelle dewberry and with me this evening is the columnist at the mail on sunday, peter hitchens, and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani. aaron, i must say i have been i did enjoy not during the election campaign, your little trips on novara media around individual seats , finding out what the seats, finding out what the people have to say, what they're thinking. it was good. i found it interesting. >> that's very kind of you. >> that's very kind of you. >> it's all right. let's see what people were saying about the defence conversation we were having. anonymous has gotten in touch. you say nato is archaic and we need to be in charge of our own defence with updated weapons and armed forces. carol says we need to beef up our defences. nato is vital to western democracy. nuclear deterrent is also necessary and rob says make all defence spending mandatory to british manufacturers only. we can then spend infinite amounts and increase growth at the same

time. i reckon we'd probably have to export some as well to make to make more money. possibly, but there you go. those are your views . now moving those are your views. now moving on. because, almost half of conservative party members think that the party should merge with reform uk. so i guess we need to ask, is that a good idea or should the two steer clear? well, clear of each other, what's your take on this? all peter? >> well, i as so often i turn to our old friend vladimir lenin, who's questioned about all mergers was, and indeed all deaungs mergers was, and indeed all dealings between one person and another was who, whom, who's on top, who's on the bottom, who's in charge. if you had a merger of the farage party, which is what it is, and the conservative party, who would be in charge? would it be farage taking over the tory party, or would it be the tory party, or would it be the tory party trying to take over? farage you don't even really need to finish asking the question before you can work out what would be going on. it would be a reverse farage takeover of the tories, whether that would work for anybody's purpose, i

don't know . work for anybody's purpose, i don't know. nigel work for anybody's purpose, i don't know . nigel farage work for anybody's purpose, i don't know. nigel farage has a very strong appeal to some people, but i think it may too be limited to form the basis of a new national party of the right, for instance , if it right, for instance, if it indeedis right, for instance, if it indeed is of the right, i'm never entirely sure what nigel farage is. actual politics are . farage is. actual politics are. i don't think he's a conservative. for instance, he may he may be a thatcherite, but i don't think he's a conservative, which is a different thing. >> classical liberal economic liberal, >> not not particularly interested in practice in the social and moral side of conservatism. and i think that's that's one reason why it might not work. the other reason is that i think, why would you particularly want to get in fact, why would you want to train yourself to what is effectively a corpse and has the conservative party got any long term future anyway? may have another couple of general elections in it before it seeds the leader of the opposition's chair to the liberal democrats, or it may not, i don't know. it's in a very bad way. and when

you're in a bad way, as a party, you're in a bad way, as a party, you can't raise money. and when you can't raise money. and when you can't raise money, you can't win elections. >> well, yes, we know lots of donors have given up on the party. they're not putting their eggsin party. they're not putting their eggs in that basket. let's give a few statistics. well, just one really? so 47% of these members are in favour. 48% are against. so it's pretty much split down the middle. i mean, aaron, what is the point of having two conservative parties ? conservative parties? >> it's an interesting point, isn't it? you've kind of got the conservative answer that question. >> the point of having having two conservative parties is keep the labour party in office. >> sorry, peter. we're going to go to theo chikomba. who is outside the cemetery in enfield where this manhunt continues, theo, bring us the latest . theo, bring us the latest. >> well, in the last few moments, hertfordshire police have confirmed that a man who was wanted in connection with the triple murders has been found here at this cemetery. you may just be able to see behind me. there's a police officer here. and in the last hour or

so, we saw an ambulance leave . a so, we saw an ambulance leave. a number of police officers, armed officers as well. and this is following the extensive search. they've been carrying out since yesterday. after the incident occurred in bushey, which is around half an hour drive from here in enfield. and they have been working tirelessly and this evening have confirmed that he has been found. 26 year old kyle clifford . now, in a statement, clifford. now, in a statement, hertfordshire police say, kyle clifford is receiving medical treatment, having been found with injuries, no shots were fired by police. at this stage, we believe the suspect was known to the victims . and then just to the victims. and then just this from a detective inspector justine jenkins from bedfordshire, cambridgeshire, and hertfordshire major crime unit saying this continues to be an incredibly difficult time for the victim's family and we would ask that their privacy is respected as they come to terms with what has happened. the investigation, as we know, has been moving at pace and they are

yet to formally identify the three women at this time. so what we do know is that the police have been working extensively hard and that they have found the 26 year old who they were searching for, they believe is connected to this incident, which took place in bushey just around 30 minutes drive from here. we've spent the day in the community speaking to people who live there and about finding out what happened in the last 24 hours around this time yesterday that they saw an armed police helicopter in the sky and blue light and people thinking, what is going on here? we spoke to one lady who's lived in that area for decades and hasn't seen anything quite like it. and when we left just a few hours ago, it was a time when parents were returning home from school runs with their children. and of course, they'll be wondering, why are there so many people on their streets? so it's still something that community is coming to terms with. but what we do know this evening is that

the police have found the suspect they were looking for. >> well, thank you very much indeed for bringing us that update. theo chikomba there outside the cemetery in enfield, to just reiterate, the hearts police have issued this statement saying that following an extensive search, karl clifford, aged 26, has been found in the enfield area by officers this afternoon. he's receiving medical treatment. he's been found with injuries. no shots were fired by the police. so good news in that manhunt for the prime suspect, karl clifford. there in that triple murder. we're going to park that there and get back to our debate on politics. aaron, i think i asked you, what is the point of having two conservative parties? they just break up the vote, don't they? really? >> well, that's true, but i suppose nigel farage would say that the conservative party isn't a conservative party. yes, he would, which is, you know, that's his point of view, i personally can't imagine a scenario where nigel farage is a member of a political party, and he's going to be willing to be

ticked off by the old boys and their grey suits in the 1922 committee. he's simply not going to do that. and there was a quote, actually from this piece by kemi badenoch who said, i don't think a party that is over 200 years old should merge with something that was cooked up last week. this, in one sentence, encapsulates everything wrong with the conservative party. >> the entitlement you have to say entitlement. >> you have just had your worst ever results. you should thank your lucky stars. you got more than 100 mps. your lucky stars. you got more than 100 mp5. it your lucky stars. you got more than 100 mps. it could have been a heck of a lot worse. and you're talking about we are 200 years old. well this party reform with farage at its helm, is barely 200 days old. not even that, actually, with regards to his comeback, it's a few weeks old and they got, you know, two thirds of the tory vote in absolute numbers. so look, i agree with your point. it is going to split the right vote, possibly for one two elections. but i think ultimately if many things go right for reform and many things go wrong for the tories, i think one could replace the other. >> yeah, yeah. >> yeah, yeah. >> and peter, what do you make of this infighting? it's very pubuc of this infighting? it's very public at the moment on the tory side between particularly kemi

badenoch and suella braverman. now kemi reportedly had a lot to say at this first meeting with the conservatives after their , the conservatives after their, well, poor performance, let's say devastating performance at the election. and now suella braverman is tweeting, kemi, saying i'd be interested in knowing whether kemi badenoch thinks i'm having a very public nervous breakdown because apparently kemi said that in this meeting of the shadow cabinet, i mean, they're just doing this all out , but this is doing this all out, but this is why people didn't vote for. >> but emily, this is this is this is christmas for the parliamentary conservative party. it's what they've been waiting for the past six months. they've had absolutely no interest in winning the general election or romanian government. in fact, most of them, i think, are longing to be out of government so they could get back to doing what they enjoy most, which is tearing each other's throats out and that's what they do because they have they believe in nothing and they have no, no substantial purpose. all they can now pursue is their own personal ambitions, and it will be ludicrous and off

putting, as most of what they do is mean. and anybody who had any serious hopes for conservative policies in this country ought by now to have laid them to rest, because there aren't any. it's all over. we've got 20 years of labour, and by the time they've finished, the country will be so bankrupt that it won't really matter. >> who wrote that. >> who wrote that. >> it was quite a fragile win. it was a win. >> doesn't matter. they're not going now. they've arrived now. they've moved into the house. they're not leaving. i promise you, whoever they have to give votes to and the next step after the 16 year olds is going to be the 16 year olds is going to be the eu citizens living here. they're not going. they will not leave . and if nigel farage leave. and if nigel farage continues to besiege the tories on one side, well, get ready. >> gb news the tory party continues to eat itself. socialism. >> can i, can i just pull over? i'll be quick. >> very quick. >> very quick. >> yes. labour. don't think that. labour think that the coalition they've got, i think rightly, is very fragile. and if they don't, you know, play the game properly, they'll end up like boris after 2019. and my personal view is. that's correct. >> well of course that's so they will maintain the necessary

discipline to remain in power because they've got enough imagination to see what would happenif imagination to see what would happen if they didn't. but the conservative party just just became completely irrational some years ago as it began cannibalising itself, basically. and as a result, it didn't have much hope before. it has none now. don't expect me to care because i don't . i've i've because i don't. i've i've despaired of the conservative party as a force of conservatism since 2003, but which i think now is 21 years ago, but i last. i find that lots of other people are catching up with me. >> well, you know what, >> well, you know what, >> it's good to be hopeful in this. >> no, it isn't, is it not? it's absolutely crazy. >> it may make you really unhappy if you if you if you look to this process and thought that anything good would arise from it, the thing to do is to remain sane and cheerful is to realise that it is a hopeless mess and to get on with the things in your life which you value. >> well, john says, emily, we don't have two conservative parties. we have reform who have common sense and don't tell a pack of lies. then we have the conservatives who can't lie straight in bed while strong stuff from john, after the break, i want to show you a clip of a bit of a corbynista labour

politician being sworn into parliament. let's have a little look about about what he had to say, his protest. stay with

us. well, it's 638, this is dewbs& co. i'm covering emily carver here with you until 7:00. and as we just heard, only a few moments ago, the prime suspect in this triple murder in hertfordshire, in bushey has been found by the police. the police swarmed a cemetery in enfield a little earlier, and he has been found with some injuries . he needs treatment, injuries. he needs treatment, but the police did not fire any shots. that's what we've been told by the hertfordshire force, the inspector, justine jenkins, she's saying this continues to be an incredible difficult time for the victim's family. and we would ask that their privacy is respected as they come to terms

with what has happened. we've been following this story all day. it really has been so shocking as we've received more details about what happened here, the perpetrator or the suspect. now, we should call him. he, 26 years old, was named as karl clifford earlier. this manhunt has been going on all day since yesterday evening when this incident took place. i mean, aaron, this is truly, truly shocking. obviously, good news that the police have caught their prime suspect here, but their prime suspect here, but the use of a of a crossbow in this day and age. >> strange, isn't it, i suppose in a way , i want you to think in a way, i want you to think about it. it's. it makes sense. peter was saying in the break. sorry to steal your lines, peter. >> well, no, you can. i just have a very strong rule that when there's a case in which somebody is likely to be charged, has been arrested, i've been trained since the age of about 18 not to speak about the case at all. so i'm not going to. it'sjust case at all. so i'm not going to. it's just simply case at all. so i'm not going to. it'sjust simply i simply to. it's just simply i simply it's a straightforward risk of

subdue to say, i don't know, someone's someone's being facing a charge on a serious crime. if we talk about it, we're in a very risky legal area and i just. i'm afraid ijust very risky legal area and i just. i'm afraid i just can't. just. i'm afraid ijust can't. >> well, what we can talk about, certainly anybody else to either how we've had ten crossbow incidents in the last decade, including an incident at windsor castle on christmas day in 2021. >> that was a 19 year old who was apprehended within the castle. we also had two separate crossbow attacks in shoreditch, east london, in march of this yearin east london, in march of this year in uxbridge, 2 in 2020, a crossbow is becoming. i mean, of course, it's a very old weapon of choice, but it does seem that it's occurring relatively frequently. but i believe we are going to go to theo chikomba, who is on the scene where the suspect was, found by the police. theo, bring us the latest .

latest. >> yes, well, in the last couple of minutes, as we've reported, hertfordshire police confirmed that a man wanted in connection with the triple murder was found here at this location. this is a cemetery just in the north part of enfield. and this is around 30 minutes drive from the bushy area near watford, where an incident took place last night just before 7 pm. police were called there and they found three women who were seriously injured. but despite their best efforts, three women were sadly pronounced dead on the scene . pronounced dead on the scene. now we spent most of the day there and throughout the day we've been hearing from the police that an extensive search is underway in that area in bushey. here in north london, and enfield, where that 26 year old suspect, kyle clifford , is old suspect, kyle clifford, is from. and it is in this area indeed , they confirm that this indeed, they confirm that this afternoon that they found him here. we saw in the last couple of hours a footage when police

were arriving. but in the last hour or so, they left here an ambulance left this scene here and a number of police officers as well. they also in a statement, thanked members of the public who have got in touch with information by calling them. and but they're continually asking if anybody has any cctv or dash cam footage, please contact them as this will help them as part of their investigations. now, in terms of the 26 year old suspect, we understand that he's receiving medical treatment after being found here and that the police also stressed that no shots were fired here at the scene where he was found. and they say at this stage we believe that the suspect was known to the victims. that's hertfordshire police there. in their statement, they've released . so it's been moving at released. so it's been moving at pace over the last couple of hours, especially since last night when that incident was took place , and into today where took place, and into today where it's moved at pace, working with

a number of agencies across this part of the country. but we are waiting for, though, is a further update whether or not they'll come here, but we'll be keeping an eye, keeping an eye out for that. should they come at the police themselves to give further updates on this situation? >> and theo, as it stands, there has been no arrest. the suspect who's been found is in is receiving treatment for injuries . receiving treatment for injuries. yeah >> yes. so that's that's what we know at the moment. it just says in the official lines that we've received from the police is that the suspect is receiving medical treatment with no further details at the moment. and then that's something we're looking to establish, from the police themselves so they can confirm that detail as well. >> much indeed. theo chikomba there in enfield for us outside that cemetery where the suspect in this murder case has been found. thank you very much, theo, we're going to take a very

quick break. we'll back in just moment with more

>> well. welcome back to dewbs& co. >> and as we were just hearing, the triple murder suspect has been found in a cemetery. we believe in enfield by the police. we understand he's being treated for injuries. currently but i want to broaden this out. this discussion with my panel this evening, aaron bastani. and, of course, peter hitchens, to this issue we've been hearing about the use of a crossbow. we have to be careful now, as this may well be an active case. as it stands, the police have found a suspect, but the issue of crossbows here, it's something thatis crossbows here, it's something that is particularly striking, isn't it? we hear a lot about knife attacks. we hear unfortunately quite a bit about gun attacks now, but crossbows

now. did you know, aaron, that we had a crossbow act that dates back to 1987 and that's intended to regulate the sale, etcetera, etcetera . but as it stands, you etcetera. but as it stands, you can quite easily apparently get these weapons online. >> when you mentioned a crossbow act, my mind immediately thought of, you know , 1587. yes, because of, you know, 1587. yes, because obviously it's such an archaic weapon. and as you rightly said, weapon. and as you rightly said, we don't want to prejudice the case, but you can give some, relatively interesting context. they are obviously quite quiet . they are obviously quite quiet. they, they can be deadly weapons. and in a way, once you think about it, it's strange that you don't see more of it, people will innovate with regards to lethal weapons, which are easy to get hold, and obviously they're much easier to get hold of than firearms, but other than that, i can't really comment on much. really, other than yes , it makes sense that than yes, it makes sense that actually a criminal intent on causing harm would use something like that if they can get hold of it. >> well, yes, but the question does arise, peter, as to our attitude in society as a whole towards violent crime and access

towards violent crime and access to these types of weapons, we've seen the government previously try to crack down on so—called zombie knives. we've seen this endless battle with knife crime , endless battle with knife crime, in particular in urban areas. london, the worst affected city as it stands currently, is there as it stands currently, is there a way for the government to get these types of weapons, whether it's a crossbow, whether it's a zombie knife off the streets or is there something deeper going wrong here? >> well, a general question . >> well, a general question. >> well, a general question. >> all i know about crossbows comes from my history lessons on the 100 years war, which were many, many years ago. so i know nothing about that . on the topic nothing about that. on the topic of weapons in general, it doesn't seem to me that that in those societies where weapons are widely used , united states, are widely used, united states, for instance , that the issue is for instance, that the issue is really the presence or absence of weapons. as such, it would be

very difficult for any remotely free society to ban the presence of weapons in it. and the less sophisticated the weapon, the harder it would be to ban. and for instance , switzerland, where for instance, switzerland, where it's almost mandatory for every household to have a gun in it doesn't have any severe gun crime, whereas the united states, where it's people are free to do it, does so obviously the actual factor is not necessarily possession or availability of weapons, but beyond that one cannot really go. >> so it's , go.— >> so it's , it's a it's go. >> so it's , it's a it's hopeless >> so it's, it's a it's hopeless to try and crack down on these things. >> when the government talks about more regulation, when the thing about banning the thing that both politicians and the media reach for, when these things happen and that and quite often there are in the united states, there is a very large , states, there is a very large, lobby for free ownership of guns >> and there is another very large lobby on the other side of

politics, of people who want this to be severe gun control and immediately armed crime takes place in united states. both those lobbies square up against each other, often not very coherently . i don't think very coherently. i don't think the actual issue of why people kill each other, is necessarily addressed in these debates. >> well, yes . and there's quite >> well, yes. and there's quite a lot, that sir keir starmer, the new prime minister, is going to have to deal with, isn't there, aaron, all these news headunes there, aaron, all these news headlines about how prisons are so full up, we don't have the prisons to provide the deterrent. >> well, i thought he prison spaces anyway, i thought keir starmer actually said something quite smart, which was that he thinks fewer people should go to prison, but we should have more prison, but we should have more prison cells and more prisons. >> so , you know, he's trying to >> so, you know, he's trying to please both crowds there, you know , rather than having what we know, rather than having what we have at the moment, which is, of course, too many prisoners and not enough prison cells, keir starmer is kind of inverting it. i thought that was interesting. i thought that was interesting. i do agree, and this is

certainly something where peter and i would disagree. i do agree with what james simpson recently said, that there are certain people in prison who simply shouldn't be there in terms of recidivism and reoffending. it's not working. he said that some people absolutely should be there, and i'd agree with that too. and there are some people who commit crimes who should be in a lot longer than they presently are, for instance, killing somebody with dangerous driving. i've seen instances of people being out after1 or people being out after 1 or 2 years, three years. i think that's far too short. but i think there are many people, for instance, with regards to drugs. and i know peter strongly disagrees. in the short term, if you want to create capacity, you could have those people out of prison. certainly >> well, you are the things that very few people think at all about prison. and as a result, there are again, there are there are standard positions on the left and the right, and both of which are steeped in in ignorance. one of the major problems with prisons in this country is that they're so very hard to get into. it's much harder to get into prison in this country than it is to get into university. and you have to really, really try. and generally people will have.

>> i'm terribly sorry to interrupt you. >> i've been told to head straight back to theo chikomba, who's on the scene in enfield, theo. >> well, the man who has been wanted as the suspect for in this manhunt, which has been taking place in north london, has been found here at a cemetery in the enfield area. this is following an incident that took place in bushey, near watford, around 30 minutes drive from where we are at the moment. this is in connection with the triple murder. this is in connection with the triple murder . three women we triple murder. three women we understand, have been were found yesterday evening with serious injuries and then, to the best efforts of the paramedics and all the people that were there at the scene at the time, they were unable to help them and they sadly passed away. but what we do know is that the extensive search which has been going on throughout the day, has been concluded here. and we

understand that the 26 year old suspect, who's been wanted, has been taken to hospital and is under medical treatment at the moment, finally, just police are asking if anybody has any information or any footage that they may be able to share to help with their investigation. they're asking them to get in touch or call 999. >> thank you very much indeed. theo chikomba. we'll leave it. there. you are outside a cemetery in enfield. that suspect in that triple murder has been found by the police there, back in the studio, i'd like to say thank you for being so flexible, peter hitchens and aaron bastani with that breaking news. this evening. thank you very much. up next, i believe it is tom harwood, my usual co—host. he'll be hosting next hour for and, enjoy the football this

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britain's news channel. >> good evening. this is gbn tonight with me, tom harwood. breaking news in the last moments, a 23 hour manhunt has come to a dramatic conclusion. a man suspected of killing three women in their home in cold blood has been apprehended by the police. we're learning more by the minute. and we'll be live in enfield, north london, with updates as we get them . updates as we get them. elsewhere, sir keir starmer is in washington dc. he's there for nato's 75th anniversary summit as he pledges to increase defence spending to 2.5% of gdp, but refuses to say when it will happenin but refuses to say when it will happen in this parliament. and we have an explosive interview with the home, former home secretary suella braverman. she lays into rishi sunak and gives her stance on allowing nigel farage into the tory party. were she become leader .