r , abusing, insulting, quite frankly, comparing donald trump to hitler seems to be commonplace now. what role did msn play in this? you tell me. also, new migration stats out today show a popular population increase last year. get this was the largest since 1948. surely everyone can see that this is not sustainable and reform uk doesit not sustainable and reform uk does it need to be more democratic ? it's a limited democratic? it's a limited company. is that a problem ? all company. is that a problem? all of that and lots more . and i've of that and lots more. and i've got a cracking panel to get stuck into it with tonight. but first let's get the 6:00 news headunes first let's get the 6:00 news headlines with a legend that is polly middlehurst.

>> michelle, thank you and good evening to you, will. the top story from the gb newsroom tonight is that a body believed tonight is that a body believed to be that of the missing british teenager, jay slater , british teenager, jay slater, has been found on the spanish island of tenerife. spanish rescue teams made the discovery in the area where the 19 year old went missing last month, and where his phone was last traced to. that's a ravine in a remote national park on the island. the body, we understand, was found with clothes and possessions belonging to jay. in a statement, the spanish police said he may have died due to an accidental fall, but a post—mortem examination will be carried out. in other news today, his majesty the king has written to donald trump following an assassination attempt on him at the weekend. it's understood that the letter was delivered via the uk embassy in washington. buckingham palace hasn't disclosed the exact details of the letter, but it's understood to have condemned the violence and express condolences

for the victims, as well as wishing the former president a speedy recovery. meanwhile, donald trump's classified documents case has been thrown out of court. a florida judge made the decision after finding the prosecutor in the case had been unlawfully appointed. mr trump says all other cases against him should now be quickly dismissed. however, the decision is likely to be appealed. meanwhile, donald trump is in wisconsin ahead of the republican national convention in milwaukee, where he's going to be formally nominated as his party's presidential candidate. the former president pumped his fist in the air as he descended the staircase from his plane. on arrival, he's due to reveal his vice presidential running mate and on thursday, make a keynote speech. well, here in the uk, the shadow foreign secretary, andrew mitchell, told gb news. the threat to donald trump has made everyone think about politicians safety.

>> president biden put it very well from the oval office when he talked about the coarsening of debate and the fact that we need to have a very close look at, at how we conduct our politics. and i hope that on, you know, on the back of the elections that we've just been through here, were candidates of all parties, particularly women, suffered the most appalling acts of abuse and, and were often put in very frightening positions. i hope very much that we can have a sort of national debate now about how we clean that up . about how we clean that up. >> now, a man charged with murder after human remains were found in two suitcases on a bndge found in two suitcases on a bridge in bristol, has been remanded in custody. jostein andres mosquera is accused of killing 62 year old albert alfonso and 71 year old paul longworth, police say he'd stayed with them at their flat in london, where more remains were found. the 34 year old is due to appear in court on wednesday . meanwhile, police are

wednesday. meanwhile, police are scouring a farm in hertfordshire for the remains of a woman who was murdered back in 1969. muriel mckay was kidnapped and held for ransom when she was mistaken for the then wife of media mogul rupert murdoch. brothers arthur and nizamuddin hussain demanded £1 million for her release. they were convicted of her kidnap and murder, but the body was never located. well, new images show police officers who've been in today on that dig have been looking through the dirt inside a barn at stocking farm in hertfordshire to try to locate where mrs. mckay was traced . where mrs. mckay was traced. now, in other news today, over a thousand migrants have crossed the english channel since labour came to power, gb news can reveal the total number to make the journey in small boats since the journey in small boats since the general election stands at 1128. it's understood a slight improvement in weather conditions saw almost 250 arrivals over the previous four

days. the arrivals take the number of migrants who've crossed the channel to 14,702, so far this year. some news just into us police have clashed with anti—immigration protesters in dubun anti—immigration protesters in dublin among a number of people were arrested after police and fire service personnel came under attack at a site that's due to be deployed and developed into housing for asylum seekers. a makeshift protest camp was set up several months ago to prevent workers from building in the area. ireland's justice minister says she's appalled by the scenes. and as you've been heanng scenes. and as you've been hearing today on gb news, a security scare during the king and queen's visit to the channel islands ended up being a false alarm. the royals are on a two day visit on the island of jersey, and they were pulled away after a member of their staff whispered something into the queen's ear. they were then quickly taken to a nearby hotel, while a full background check

was carried out and their program was resumed shortly afterwards. those are the latest gb news headlines for now. i'm polly middlehurst. i'm back in an hour. see you then for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . slash alerts. >> thank you very much for that, polly. i am michelle dewberry and i'm with you until 7:00 tonight alongside me. i've got my panel, the chairman of reform uk, zia yousef and the professor of political economy and international relations at queen mary university, lee jones . mary university, lee jones. doctor lee jones, very posh sounding title. there welcome back. you've not been on the show for two years now. time flies. great to be back. yes. great to have you back, very great to have each and every one of you at home as well, keeping me company this evening. you

know the drill. it's not just about us. it is about you guys at home. what's on your mind tonight? you can get in touch with me all the usual ways. you can email me gb views @gbnews. com. you can go to the website gbnews.com/yoursay or of course you can tweet or text me, but wherever you are tonight, you're very, very welcome. if you're anything like me, i do confess i have got a slightly delicate head. this evening after being in the pub watching england last night. if you are like me, don't worry, we will feel better tomorrow. so spare a thought for this guy , who had what i would this guy, who had what i would say. fantastic optimism, dan thomas, you might have seen him earlier on. actually, he was very passionate and optimistic about our result. he had a tattoo of the trophy, engraved tattooed onto him with the words england euro 2024 winners. i mean , bless him. but i do admire mean, bless him. but i do admire his optimism. he won't be getting rid of that memory as quickly as hangovers will be fading , that is for sure. but

fading, that is for sure. but a very sad result, would you bothered by the football last night or not? let me know your thoughts. but of course lots are going on since i've been off as well this weekend. of course we've seen the horrendous, attempted assassination of donald trump. you know, like all of you, i watched this moment unfold. let's just recap it for anyone that actually you don't know where you will have been. if you haven't seen this by now. but look, of course, he was speaking at a rally, and then shots , quite frankly. i mean, shots, quite frankly. i mean, i saw this, unfolding. i couldn't believe my eyes. couldn't believe my eyes. couldn't believe my eyes. couldn't believe my ears. absolutely shocking scenes. and then when you actually look, a kind of aerial breakdown as well, which i'll show you in a second. it's really, really quite staggering . really, really quite staggering. and people are picking up a lot on this. i mean, look at the close proximity of that guy to be on that roof in such close proximity. there are massive questions to be asked as to the failures as to various different services. i would say as to how

on earth this was allowed to happen. i want to come in a second, actually to the conversation that we have in the media internationally and also here at home about donald trump, because i think the media, lots of them have huge questions to answer today. they need to reflect on the role that they might have played in whipping up hatred. but before i get to that element, don't worry, i'm coming to that. what did you actually think, zia, when you saw these scenes unfold ? scenes unfold? >> well, obviously they're shocking, shocking scenes . and, shocking, shocking scenes. and, and sadly , unfortunately, it's and sadly, unfortunately, it's not actually a surprise. i think the, the fact that president trump has been constantly attacked, the constant ad hominem demonisation of president trump calling him, you know, the new hitler, calling him a fascist, essentially calling him a threat to democracy and a threat to the country. by the way, those words coming from the current president of the united states and generally the mainstream media. so when you have that kind of rhetoric and that kind

of invective, it all leads us to a situation where unfortunately , a situation where unfortunately, you're going to have people like this who who try to carry out atrocities. >> let me you mentioned some of the rhetoric. so let me just show you some of the rhetoric, because i would argue now for years and years, donald trump has been subjected to absolutely appalling, characterisation by a variety of media outlets. i mean, look, this is a new republic, and if you're listening on the radio, i'll tell you, it's the front cover that they've mocked up. they openly admit that they based it on a hitler campaign, poster and basically mocking him up, calling him the american fascist. you go to der spiegel, this one, i mean, it is just absolutely appalling. this is a german publication . they've got german publication. they've got donald trump there, essentially. i would say mocked him up to be like a member of the ku klux klan. their headline of a translator, it says the true face of donald trump. i mean, we can continue because it's not just internationally. if you can bnng just internationally. if you can bring it over to the uk, you've

got sky news, for example, after the assassination attempt, let me show you one of the things that they tweeted out, they're saying that nothing justifies , saying that nothing justifies, an assassination bid. but did trump play a part in, changing the rules of engagement ? i mean, the rules of engagement? i mean, sorry, let me continue, everyone. there's more. are you sitting comfortably, get yourselves strapped in, because look at this. this is from a bbc journalist. he says, this was on twitter. if i was biden, i'd hurry up and i'd trump murdered on the basis that he is a threat to america's security. that was something he previously tweeted out and then deleted. it's obviously recirculated. so now he's tweeted out this morning a tweet that i deleted , clearly tweet that i deleted, clearly satirical but deliberately misinterpreted . misinterpreted misinterpreted. misinterpreted has been resurrected and therefore reproduced far more often than the original. not only does this now endanger me, but also maliciously seeks to obscure my intention, which was to deplore such violence utterly. i mean, so now he's

very upset that now he potentially is endangered. but he didn't care when he was talking about potentially, hurrying up and having trump murdered. there's more. everyone look at this . david lammy, our look at this. david lammy, our foreign secretary he tweeted a few years ago, regarding the daily mail story today. yes, if trump comes to the uk , i will be trump comes to the uk, i will be out protesting on the streets. he is a racist, kkk and nazi sympathiser. i mean, i could go on, but i finish at seven. so let me bring doctor lee in. what's your thoughts on some of this? >> i think we have to be a little bit careful whenever there's a, individual murder or a mass shooting or whatever. there's always some attempt to divine the motives of the killer of the killer . and what divine the motives of the killer of the killer. and what was he doing and what was he motivated by and there's huge amounts of speculation, which often turn out to be wrong. and at the moment we don't know very much about the person that did it. i think we also need to be a bit careful about assuming that people are basically witless sponges who just do whatever the

media tell them to do, because the argument then becomes about restraining the freedom of the press and restricting freedom of speech. so, you know, this channelis speech. so, you know, this channel is broadly pro free speech, as am i. and if you want to defend your free speech, to call beau biden whatever or to defend donald trump, you have to uphold the free speech rights of people who want to say, you know, actually, trump is a racist or a nazi or whatever you may disagree with that. but i think if we draw a link between what's on the front page of a newspaper and somebody trying to kill somebody else, we're in a very dangerous, slippery slope towards an authoritarian society. >> i mean, look , you free >> i mean, look, you free speech, you can say whatever you want, whatever . my point here want, whatever. my point here is, why are people likening? because let's face it, donald trump is not everybody's cup of tea. no problem. you know, not everyone wants him in power. on the flip side of that is a huge amount of people do want him in powers. you know, free society. as you say. this, likening though, when you've got big figures on the right of

politics, there is this real rush to describe them as nazis , rush to describe them as nazis, fascists. and of course, yes, you can say that in a free society, whatever. my point is, why are so many people so quick just because they dislike the policies and politics of somebody and disagree with them, to liken them to people like hitler. >> so, i mean, i think with trump in particular, i think he is openly quite racist and misogynistic. >> how is he openly racist? >> how is he openly racist? >> we could go back into his previous comments , but i don't previous comments, but i don't think you really want to do that, i do. >> you've just said he's openly racist. >> okay? his comments about mexicans, for example, the fact that they're a kind of mass rapists and so on, there's plenty of evidence to support what i'm saying. he didn't plenty of evidence to support what i'm saying . he didn't call what i'm saying. he didn't call your question your question to me was, why are so many people well, hang on, he's saying that, >> so you're saying he didn't say that? >> well, i think what you're referring to is when he announced his candidacy for the presidency and he talked about how, mexico, mexicans are not

sending their best. and he also said and many of them are good people. so i think, again, that's a that's a highly selective, piece of, extrapolation essentially in order, in order to cast aspersions on him and to demonise him, let me let me come back to your question. >> okay. why is it that why is it that so often people on the right, people on the populist right, people on the populist right in particular, are branded as fascists? they have a carefree attitude with the truth, and they insurgent attitude towards democratic and liberal institutions , which liberal institutions, which worries a lot of people. so trump's role in the cabinet. >> but you've just called him racist. and i would say that's a carefree attitude with the truth. >> i think, look, if you want an answer to your question about why the left and liberals use this term, then i'm going to try and give you the answer right, which is that this is about the moralisation of politics. it's not about what you stand for or who you represent or what your platform is. it's whether you're a good person or a bad person. and this goes back decades. i remember when i was an undergraduate student, the term fascist was thrown around very, very lightly by people on the

left to delegitimize anybody who was on the right, including conservatives at that time. this is not a new thing. why is this happening? because political contestation has narrowed really fundamentally. so that anybody who's outside the mainstream is very threatening to people in the mainstream. and the only way that you distinguish yourself and legitimise yourself is through morally. i'm a good person. i'm not a fascist. and i think effectively it functions as a form of blackmail to the voters as well. so you've got to for vote me in the centre, even though i don't represent your interests, even though i'm not looking after the country very well, because otherwise the fascists get in. >> what do you think to that? yeah >> look, i would agree that it's, you know, we have seen that for over a decade now of the constant, sneering at, of the constant, sneering at, of the electorate by, our political elites, the name calling again, the ad hominem attacks . and if the ad hominem attacks. and if you don't conform to this very specific set of ideas, most of which are completely incoherent, then you must be racist, or

there must be something wrong with you. and there's little to no engagement with the ideas. i mean, again, i could not disagree more strongly that president trump is racist or that any honest objective assessment of what he has said over the years could lead somebody, particularly someone who's evidently as smart as you , who's evidently as smart as you, to that conclusion, frankly. and, you know, i would bring the point back closer to home as well . obviously, the leader of well. obviously, the leader of our party, nigel farage, who well—documented we all know he faces threats all of the time. he has had things thrown at him and we had the bbc, we had jo brand say that , well on the bbc brand say that, well on the bbc that why couldn't that milkshake have been battery acid? and when you go back to free speech, i mean, again, i'm very much pro free speech. but the reality is for example, david aaronovitch's tweet, which you were right to bnng tweet, which you were right to bring up , that is a that is an bring up, that is a that is an incitement to assassinate the former, and probably presumptive president of the united states. and i'm sure you would agree that that that is something that is beyond the pale, wouldn't you? >> but also, there does seem to

me to be massive double standards, because i think if anybody. so, jo cox horrendously , anybody. so, jo cox horrendously, horrifically, she was assassinated . murdered, assassinated. murdered, appalling . absolutely appalling. appalling. absolutely appalling. if anyone for a nanosecond, i'm thinking back to the likes of the sky news tweet there said, you know, nothing justifies an assassination. but, did jo cox, for example, being pro—eu , have for example, being pro—eu, have something to do? they would be massive outrage. they would be huge outrage if somebody turned around and said, about a left wing person or it's a shame that that person had a milkshake. i wish it was, battery acid. there would be huge outrage. in fact, i've got myself on my soapbox . i've got myself on my soapbox. everyone, i'm going to take a break and i'll come. i'll come back to it, because i know that you guys will have very strong opinions on this. what do you make to this? is this just

harmless free speech, or is there something a little bit more sinister going on, many of you as well, getting in touch, saying, are you going to be discussing, these new immigration figures that are coming out? yes, am after the as it happens, i'll see you in

hello, everybody. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00. it's very nice to have your company, stuart . you've your company, stuart. you've just really made me laugh on the your say, you've just. i've just mentioned to you that guy that had his winner's tattoo for england and the euros tattooed on his body before that actually kicked off. stuart on the website says what kind of person has a winner's tattoo , tattooed has a winner's tattoo, tattooed on them before even kick off? he says they should have had the word moron tattooed on his forehead instead. goodness gracious, stuart, you're a harsh man, look, let's just carry on this conversation, shall we? just for a few more minutes, about the situation with donald trump, because i'm trying to ascertain why there is such a

double standards in society where if it's somebody on the right of politics, they seem to be completely fair game would just be mentioning, so many examples of that happening. and i just do want to just try and reinforce this and kind of just reinforce this and kind of just reinforce my question because it troubles me. it just troubles me . troubles me. it just troubles me. like you just mentioned, that example of nigel farage, the battery acid, sorry. the milkshake. oh, i'm gutted it wasn't a battery acid. you saw nigel farage get a milk thrown on him, in clacton . people on him, in clacton. people laughing. even i've seen people laughing. even i've seen people laughing in response to what happened with donald trump saying, i'm absolutely gutted that the bullet missed him. you would not get away with saying that on the opposite side. and by the way, i don't think you should get away with saying because i think it's pretty disgusting, but you just wouldn't get away with it 100. >> that's exactly true. if it was reversed, if the opposite had happened, if it was a very prominent left wing politician who had a milkshake thrown at them, and any so called comedian

said that they wished it was battery acid, that person would never be seen on television again. and jo brand is still on the television , so that double the television, so that double standard is definitely there and people should not feel, look, we need we need our best people coming forward and partaking in the political process in this country. people should not feel like they are having to put their lives on the line in order to do that, and sadly, that is the state of affairs that we have in this country, >> michelle, you're saying, ray, this is you you're saying that the assassination attempt on trump is because of, the left, you're saying that constant conversations get focused on the threat of the so—called far right , whereas the fringe right, whereas the fringe elements of the obviously , i'm elements of the obviously, i'm not suggesting that everyone on the left is, is like this by any stretch, but certainly there are extreme fringe elements of the left that doesn't seem to get analysed in the same way. vicky said. the thing is , michelle, said. the thing is, michelle, she doesn't think that trump is a fascist, nor is he a dictator.

he is right wing and that's it. but susan says, has everyone forgotten that for years donald trump has constantly spewed cruel rhetoric. he mocks disabled people , threatens disabled people, threatens people at work, live for him, threatens people that turn against him, and so on and so forth, you're saying actually it's just going to be a matter of time before he returns to his narcissistic traits, and then he'll blame the democrats? i take it you don't like him, susan, but fair play to you. you at least you didn't call him a nazi. and so on and so forth. we're just talking about the killing of jo cox and you mentioned as well, well, what about david amis? no one seems to mention that you're absolutely right that nobody seems to mention it. and i find that fascinating . but if you ask that fascinating. but if you ask me the reason why people gloss over often, david amis is because it was easy. when it was jo cox, it was. people find it easy to go look at that far right lunatic. whereas the person that killed david amis was what i would describe is an islamist fanatic and people then

address that here. so instead, when he was murdered, people started messing around in the house of commons talking about how we need to be nice to each other on social media because they didn't have the chops to confront the real issue. >> yeah, i mean, that's exactly it. and this is in no small part why this country is in the state that it's in. it's a big reason why i'm such a supporter of nigel farage, because we have to be able to in order to address these enormous challenges that we have. right. extremism in all of its forms is obviously a huge challenge. this country has to face down. if you can't even stare that in the face and even discuss it, you stand no chance of solving it. i couldn't agree more. >> look, many of you are saying, michelle, are you going to get in touch and talk about, the population figures that are out today? well, yes, i am, because if you're not familiar with them, the population of england and wales has grown by 610,000, in a year. that's according to the ons. and i've got to say, these are revised figures. and i also will tell you that this increase was the biggest since 1948. nigel farage called this the immigration election. he was

saying it was a key issue. many political opponents to him was saying that's not true. many people are not concerned about immigration. it's more the cost of living. nhs and so on and so forth. judging by the inbox and people are getting in contact with me today, this is a huge concern for many , many people. concern for many, many people. >> it is, and i think it's actually much more of a concern than people. people think. so if you for take example, the nhs or you for take example, the nhs or you think about for housing example, last year, we've just, you know, these statistics show almost 1.1 million people coming to the country, around 500,000 leaving net increase north of 600,000. we only managed to build 200,000 homes last year. so we can debate all we want about building more homes. and yes, of course we need to build more homes. but if you build a third as many homes as you need just to satiate the demand of the new people arriving in the country, you are chasing your tail. you are never going to get close to solving the problem. 19,000 people to our shame as a country, had to wait three days or more in accident and emergency last year. people die as a result of that lack of

beds, lack of medical attention. despite the heroics of our frontline nhs staff. of course, it's not a this is a multivariant problem, right? it's not. it's not as simple as just being immigration. but if we cannot secure the border and freeze migration for the time being, we are not going to come remotely close to solving these problems. and i think people who try to claim that immigration is not a problem and then try to talk about those things in isolation are disingenuous at best. >> do you think, lee? >> do you think, lee? >> well, i agree. i mean, this is why it's become a flashpoint issue because, you know, frankly, most people in this country have felt for decades that immigration is running too high. and that's when it was running in, you know , around running in, you know, around 200,000. now it's tripled that net net migration. so they've been crying out for politicians to take action on this since the blair government. and continuously, governments have failed to take action. so there's a real why. >> why do you think it is? >> why do you think it is? >> well, the underlying problem

is the british growth model, effectively for the last sort of 20 plus years, we've relied on adding to the population as the main vector of economic growth. so more people means more consumption means more goods and services being produced . so services being produced. so we've got very low productivity. it's concentrated growth in the services sector, especially the low end, low paid service sector. things like deliveroo drivers and things like this . drivers and things like this. and we don't have an investment led productivity led growth model. and we don't have a pipeline of skilled labour being developed out of our own population. so we rely very heavily on importing doctors, nurses , etc. who do phenomenal nurses, etc. who do phenomenal work in the nhs. but you know, we're stealing those people from poor countries who need those skilled workers themselves. so we're not we don't we don't want to internalise the costs of training those people. and then the third thing is we don't want to pay people enough to do the dirty, difficult and dangerous

work that a lot of migrants come here to do . for example, in the here to do. for example, in the care sector, which accounts for a very large proportion of the people coming here on migrant migrant worker visas. so there's just fundamental structural problems in the political economy that we're not going to be solved by creating a border command or getting rid of the small boats, right? illegal migrant crossings are an issue. we're only talking about 45,000 relative to a much larger pool of legal migrants that are coming here, and that's driven by structural problems in the political economy. >> so we're stuck with it. then it sounds like, no, well, you're stuck with it. >> if you have this defeatist, fatalistic attitude and you're stuck with it if you're incompetent and you're stuck with it if you're cowards, which would be a frankly apt description of the government that we've had for the last 14 years, we are not stuck with it. if you believe in the enterprise of the british people, if you actually understand the actual drivers of what moves our economy, the fact is that we, you know, we are sixth in the world in terms of gdp, but we're

21st in the world in terms of gdp per capita, which i would argue is a better proxy for people's quality of life. right when you're when you when you need an accident and emergency bed or you need a gp appointment or you're trying to buy a home, you're far less concern about what the total gdp number is, right? you care a lot more about how how much capacity there is for you and what opportunities that arise for you. so of course, we have to modernise our economy. we have to modernise our civil service. the we have to make sure british people get more, much more for their taxpayers money. i'd also point out we have around 9 million. we have around about a fifth of our working age adults who are economically inactive. no doubt some of those could be enticed back to work . and this is back to work. and this is consultations that we've done. it's very evident that this is possible, but it's just not worth their while because of the way our extremely complicated tax code works. so again, one of reform's policies is eliminating income tax below £20,000, making work work for those for those people. so we agree it is not a simple problem to solve. you know the point about the small

boats? you can walk and chew gum at the same time. having a secure border is incredibly important because it's hugely demoralising to british people to see that we spend £50 billion a year on defence, and we can't stop dinghies coming across the channel year after year after year. channel year after year after year . and, you know, they go year. and, you know, they go into hotels, they get given phones at taxpayers money into perpetuity , and they jump the perpetuity, and they jump the line so that actually anything we do from a proper immigration perspective is kind of irrelevant. so i agree, it's not going to be easy to solve this country's problems, to pull it back from the abyss. but i'm hugely optimistic as a as a business person myself who started a company here, i know how much talent and dynamism exists in this country, and your family. >> your parents actually came to the uk as immigrants. >> your parents actually came to the uk as immigrants . and do you the uk as immigrants. and do you think, as many people will say , think, as many people will say, that there is an attitude towards immigrants that's becoming hostile ? becoming hostile? >> i would say that so long as we allow our borders to be open,

essentially have no border security whatsoever, and there is a perception that people are able to come here. and really, i would argue, take advantage of the goodwill of the british people. if you if you come here and you you know, our border force at the moment acts as a complementary ferry service from the channel, brings them in, puts them up. i mean, this is i'm not exaggerating. this is these are facts. we see it all these are facts. we see it all the time. nigel's documented this a lot and we see it all the time. we they get put up in hotels at around aj. >> why did you laugh at that, by the way? sorry. >> it's just a funny remark, but it's true. >> do you think it's true or not? >> look, the question. so i don't disagree with the importance of border control. right. so a government that cannot control its borders is not is not a sovereign government. so for me, it is important. the only reason i put it into context is to say even if you eliminated that overnight, you would still be adding on over half a million people through net migration every year. so you've got to look at the larger structural

drivers, correct, and not and not focus as lots of people would like to do on the illegal crossings because illegal crossings, maybe you could do something about it. although it's not easy to do something about it, because what would people have the royal navy do? i mean, sink these dinghies in the channel. is that really the country that we want to want to become? drag them back to france and the french won't take them. i mean, these are these are thorny issues. but even if you were able to totally eliminate them, the issue, the much larger issue of massive legal migration, which is caused by structural problems in the economy, would remain. >> but you see, i think just a case, i think, of tweaking the tax code here. >> the question is who is going to pay for the training of domestic workers to do the jobs that we currently just import people from overseas to do ? people from overseas to do? somebody's got to pay for it. at the moment, we basically get the indian government to pay to train our doctors, which means that we don't have to invest in the domestic training of workers in this country.

>> how about we eliminate the £600 million of taxpayers money being spent on diversity offices in the civil service? that would be a start. >> well, it may be just as one example. okay, that's a completely different issue as far as i'm concerned. >> but the my point is just that there's a there's a lot of waste that inside, inside the civil service and inside public service waste, but we just don't spend enough in this country on training, on research and development. >> you must know this yourself as a businessman, this country has got a serious problem with underinvestment in skills training and research and technology, which is why we've got extremely low productivity growth. we don't pay care workers enough to attract those 7 million people out of their houses and into work, which is difficult, dirty, unpleasant, unrewarded and unrecognised . if unrewarded and unrecognised. if you if you want to be able to fill those vacancies from domestic supplies of labour, you've got to be willing to pay

for it. and that's the thing in this country, we're often not willing to pay for the services that we want to have. >> are you one of those people who've just been discussing economically inactive people, and how do you entice those people back into the world of work? >> are you one of those people that are in that category? and what, if anything, would entice you to go back to the world of work and tell me the truth? i'm going to ask you an honest question. are you willing to do what we've just been calling? like the deity, the hard jobs would you honestly be willing to do those jobs? i don't know, would you go out into the fields and pick the fruit or whatever it is? so on and so forth. tell me the truth. get in touch. i'd love to hear your thoughts on that, after the break, we'll carry on this conversation. but i also want to ask you as well, reform uk, do they need to be more democratic? it's a limited company. does that bother you or not? see you in

hello. i'm michelle dewberry, and i'm with you until 7:00 tonight. alongside with the chairman of reform uk, youssef and the professor of political economy and international relations at queen mary university, lee jones. welcome back, everybody. i'm asking you to tell me the truth tonight. these hard, dirty jobs that so many people seem to come into the country to do , would you the country to do, would you actually do one of them? please tell me the truth, i remember in my day, people used to get picked up by the minibuses and off to the fields that they would go and pick whatever fruit it was that was in season. would you still do that? one of you has got in touch. one of my viewers say, michelle, you wouldn't even believe the amount of dirty jobs that i already have done in order to just keep myself afloat, you know, is there still a stigma, or should there still a stigma, or should there be a stigma of being able to work, being physically able to work, being physically able to work, being physically able to work, but choosing to live on benefits many years ago that would be kind of frowned upon and be a little bit embarrassing. quite frankly, if you didn't want to provide for yourself, is that stigma still there? should it be there? would

that help things or hinder things? you tell me. let's let's talk about reform uk because ben habib was on this channel a little bit earlier and there's been lots of kind of focus on the change in personnel. le let me just turn to you. actually, i was just about to say zia yousef became the chairman. and then i just remember you sat next to me, so. yeah. so you were made the chairman of the party, ben habib. he's been a regular panellist on this program. doesn't seem to perhaps taken to that most kindly. and it started a conversation about how democratic reform actually is. what's your thoughts on it ? what's your thoughts on it? >> well, look, you know, it makes total sense for, richard tice to be the deputy leader of the party to just be clear, ben habib was not the chairman. he was. he was one of the deputy leaders. there were two. now there's one. and he is in in the house of commons with nigel. and that makes total sense. i think the, the fundamental point here is that reform achieved something incredible, remarkable in this election in the space of

about a month, they were able to get to 4 million votes, 14% of the vote share five parliamentarians and i would argue all of the momentum. actually, the data shows that the conservatives obviously catastrophically lost a lot of votes versus the last election. labour lost votes versus the last election. the lib dems did too. we won 4 million more than, and we are going to make the most of that momentum. we're going to build a national branch structure. we are going to be professionalising the party. and i can tell you we are going to be a real force in the local elections next year. we're about to hit 70,000 members. that membership has doubled in the space of about six weeks. again, momentum. and mark my words, we will surpass the conservative membership base in terms of number in the not too distant future. >> ozone convensia. >> ozone convensia. >> no, i'm afraid not. but, i mean, i think , you know, what mean, i think, you know, what reform has done is, is quite remarkable , but to go to your remarkable, but to go to your question about the nature of reform, that reform is not a

political party is a limited company. it is called reform uk party limited, registered with companies house nigel farage has the exclusive significant control. the party leaders are shareholders. i as a democrat, i think that's a real problem , think that's a real problem, there is a serious, serious political problem in this country, and it's the crisis of representation. it is the void between ordinary citizens and the political establishment. 60% of people polled before the election say they don't feel represented by any political party. that is the fundamental problem in our democratic politics. and it's got to do with the hollowing out of political parties as mass membership organisations capable of channelling the interests of ordinary people so that they feel they've got some kind of control over their representatives that's been completely hollowed out. the trade unions have been hollowed out, civic associations have been hollowed out. and so there is this void between ordinary

people and their so—called representatives. and it's in that void that populist challengers like nigel farage can flourish. now, the question is , can they fill that void? can is, can they fill that void? can they rebuild the ties of political representation between ordinary people and the state? i think you can only do that if you're really committed to genuine internal democracy within your own political party, which unfortunately, at the moment it doesn't seem that they are. is that fair ? are. is that fair? >> well, look, nigel farage and richard tice are on the record. i mean, i was at the nec when nigel got in front of it, up in front of everyone on the 5th of july and said, we are going to we are going to democratise the party. i've been chairman for about three days, last i checked, and that's that's what we're working on. we're going to be, as i said, building up a branch infrastructure. we are going to be democratising the party. so look, the party did an astonishing amount with a threadbare budget, with a tiny team with no national infrastructure. and that structure served the purpose, frankly, the one you were

referring to for where we were. but obviously we're extremely ambitious. as i said, we're going to be a force to be reckoned with in the local elections next year. we'll be looking at wales the year after and obviously have our sights set on achieving something truly remarkable in 20. but as it stands, though , nigel farage stands, though, nigel farage could just decide it could wake up tomorrow and decide he doesn't like you and just give you the boot. but so can, you know, the conservatives the party's chairman is also chosen by the conservative leader, so that's not in any way, unusual. >> don't worry. you >> don't worry. you >> well, i mean, nigel is the one who asked me to be the chairman , and i hope to do a chairman, and i hope to do a really good job for him. but obviously, at the end of the day, that's that's his decision to make. but again, that is not unique to reform. the richard holden, who was the chairman until very better than the conservatives. >> right. if your aspiration is to replace the conservatives as the main force on the right, if reform is genuinely committed to addressing the void of political representation that i talked about, then you shouldn't be comparing yourself to the conservatives and say, oh, we're

just like them. >> so are you arguing that the leader of a political party should not appoint its chairman? >> don't you think that the leadership of the political party should ideally be highly responsive to the membership of that party? yes. the problem that party? yes. the problem that the labour party has had exactly the same problem, right? by exactly the same problem, right? by weakening the role of the trade unions and weakening the role of the members as much as possible to ensure top down control of the party by the by the leadership, they've all done it . all the political parties it. all the political parties have done it. but if you want to be different, if you want to address the democratic crisis head on, then you have to be different. this has to be a mass membership organisation where the leadership is accountable to the leadership is accountable to the base . and if it's not, if the base. and if it's not, if it's just a company and this is not an accident, right? this is the way the brexit party was launched. brexit party was also a corporation, which meant that you talk about it being a mass movement, but it's not a mass movement, but it's not a mass movement because you just subscribers to a company that are basically registering their support, but they're not drawn in through mass democratic

participation. so you're not breathing life back into democratic politics in a sustainable way. >> carry this conversation into

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry, alongside my doctor, lee jones and zia yousuf rahman. let's just carry on this conversation, that we were just having about, you know, about reform and the democratic deficit, i think, is what ben habib, i mean, you were quite damning, though, in some of the comments that you were making. i would say, how what do you how do you respond to that? >> well, i'd respond by saying reform had had the structure coming to the election as i said, nigel, and he came back as leader of six weeks, 5 or 4 weeks, actually, before the election happened. he'd got us to where we are now. one of the things nigel, nigel has asked me to do as chairman is to professionalise the party, democratise it, build a national

infrastructure . i have been infrastructure. i have been chairman for three days, part of being a part of doing something professionally is to do it in a considered way. so of course we're going to democratise the party. well, there you go, >> i can tell you , michael says, >> i can tell you, michael says, i don't think reform uk being a limited company is a problem at the moment at all. he thinks it's all going to figure itself out in due course. but taylor says i am fuming about this. i am totally disgusted with reform uk, that person feels it's all about the money. you're very divided at home. look you put a tweet out the other day. it really caught me because one of the problems that we've currently got is we've got, you talk about people being disengaged with the political process. i completely agree with you. and you pointed out that fewer than 20% of eligible voters actually elected the government that we have today . i government that we have today. i mean, that's shocking, isn't it? >> well, it is normal that a minority of people tend to elect the government in. yeah but 20, 20% is very low. and of course, you know, he's got this whacking

great majority , two thirds of great majority, two thirds of the seats in the house of commons. but he got fewer votes than than corbyn did when he lost the election. so we've got a serious problem of malapportionment in the british parliament. it's one of the most malapportioned, unrepresentative parliaments in the world. it's only a handful of small developing countries that are worse than ours. so the case for proportional representation now must be stronger than ever. and i'm no supporter of reform uk. but you know, reform uk got a lot more votes than the liberal democrats. but again liberal democrats. but again liberal democrats have got 14 times the seats and proportional representation and political reform is something that you guys are very passionate about. >> right. exactly. this is the we've never had more, british people unrepresented in westminster when compared to their vote in exactly that. it's not only the fact that a fifth of people eligible to vote, just a fifth voted for labour. it is the fact that they have this walloping, walloping historic majority in terms of seats, which just lays bare how unfair the first past the post system has been. i think it will be a

sandcastle majority though, as some people have said, so they don't have a massive popular mandate for political change. >> you know , starmer spent the >> you know, starmer spent the last several years telling people basically nothing's going to change. we're not going to really offer any real change. we're going to offer stability and some tweaks around the edges, which of course is not what the country needs. the country does need some radical measures to try to arrest the rot that we can see everywhere in public life , but also he's in public life, but also he's just downplayed expectations. so he has no popular mandate, the massive amount of seats that he's got, i think is not going to translate into a strong you know, historically reformist, government. but on your plans to democratise the uk, i'm all in favour of proportional representation, but democratise yourself first, and then we can talk about democratising the country. >> what a my view is here says, lee's been very harsh on reform. it's a brand new party, for goodness sake. millions of us are thankful for them and we are here to support them, fascinating to hear your views

as well about proportional representation. let's discuss that on another day. but for now, time flies when you're having fun . that is all i've got having fun. that is all i've got time for. thank you very much, gents, for your contributions. and thank you to each and every one of you for watching and listening tonight. i appreciate it and i will see you tomorrow. but up next, it's martin daubney night . night. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news >> good evening. welcome to your latest gb news weather update brought to you from the met office. heavy rain will continue in central areas overnight with rain warnings in force. but for many of us it is going to be a mild night. we've got southwesterly winds as low pressure has been approaching from the southwest and band of rain is pivoting around this area of low pressure, bringing some very heavy rain to central areas of england, parts of wales as well , where there's a areas of england, parts of wales as well, where there's a rain warning in force until the early hours of tuesday, we could see

some localised flooding by tomorrow morning . further north tomorrow morning. further north it will remain largely dry overnight. there's quite a lot of cloud around though, so temperatures holding up into the mid teens for most of us. so a fairly mild start to the day on tuesday, but a pretty damp one for some of us, particularly where this heavy rain lingers where this heavy rain lingers where that warning is still in force. however, for western areas of scotland it will likely be a bright start to the day away from the far northern isles, where some showers will move in and across southwestern areas of scotland. again, some brightness dry for northern ireland, but this heavy rain will likely be affecting northern areas of england, north wales and potentially into the midlands and the south west as well. still quite a lot of cloud around across the southeast. two and that rain is going to continue to pivot around and slowly clear away to the north sea through tuesday morning. we're also going to see some heavy showers break out across central areas of scotland, northern england , to where there northern england, to where there is a rain warning in force through much of tuesday. but from the west it will turn much dner from the west it will turn much drier and brighter as the day goes on on tuesday, so some

brightness coming through. not feeling too bad in the sunshine . feeling too bad in the sunshine. temperatures in the high teens, low 20s at best. and as we head into wednesday, that's more settled. weather becomes more widespread. so wednesday is looking like a fine day for many of us. we could see the odd shower breaking out here and there, but for most of us it should be dry and bright and actually also feeling quite a bit warmer. highs of around 25 degrees are expected on wednesday across the south, potentially up to 26 degrees on thursday . have a good evening. thursday. have a good evening. bye bye. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb. news >> hey. very good evening to you. and welcome to gbn. tonight with me. martin daubney. well, this was the moment that has shaken the world. >> take a look at what happened.

>> take a look at what happened. >> astonishing scenes. and we'll get full reaction from america. on the fallout from president donald trump being shot as an assassination attempt narrowly went wrong. elsewhere, we'll discuss the record population increase, which has been blamed on mass immigration. and of course, we cannot discuss england's devastating euro 2024 loss to spain last night. we'll be joined by a former international and premier league footballer . footballer. and we'll also find out from a tech expert how ai could help tackle children's skipping school. what i reckon about that. we'll get in touch with your thoughts. the usual ways on tonight's topics by going to gbnews.com forward slash your save. but first here's your news headlines with polly middlehurst .