than rishi sunak. i'm better than rishi sunak. i'm going to be asking steve reid, the secretary of state for environment, food and rural affairs. with labour set to unveil a black hole in the pubuc unveil a black hole in the public finances of around £20 billion, could this signal that tax rises are on the way , and tax rises are on the way, and why didn't they know about the black hole in the first place? we've all seen the accounts. i'm also going to be speaking to shadow paymaster general john glen, regarding rumours that rishi sunak doesn't want to be interim leader for much longer. lord craig mckinley, the incoming bionic peer, will also be here to share his thoughts on who will clinch the tory leadership race and author dave rich shares why we should still be worried about anti—semitism . be worried about anti—semitism. we've got 90 minutes of punchy politics lined up for you this morning, so do not even think of going anywhere . this going anywhere. this right, let's get stuck into the sunday

papers with giles cunningham, former number 10 head of press. lovely to see you this morning, giles. i mean, leadership does dominate, but let's just talk about the. i've called it an unholy row, about the £20 billion black hole in the finances rachel reeves has been saying since she became chancellor. this is the worst economic legacy anyone could inherit. we've already heard i mean, the phrase 14 years of tory rule needs to go on a bingo sheet somewhere, because we're going to be hearing it a lot. giles do we find it credible for them to be saying there is this black hole? >> i mean, it seems somewhat disingenuous because during the election, she said, look, we won't be going into the treasury looking under the bonnet and saying things are this bad because we have the obr to tell us now how bad things are for budget responsibility said. we know how bad things are. this is why we can set out fully costed plans. so now it looks like they're laying the groundwork to possibly hike capital gains tax. yeah, that's possibly telegraph today doing a raid on pensions in terms of tax relief possibly hitting inheritance tax. and i

think the issue here is does she have a mandate to do this. well, not not really, because she should have squared with the public. and i would make the comparison of when the conservatives came in in 2010, they were very clear during that election race. there are going to be some difficult cuts, some cutbacks, you know, to the frontline services , because the frontline services, because the economy was in such a perilous state and they had a mandate to do it. and actually they had the buy in from the electorate. they don't have that this time. >> clarify something for me. actually, the word austerity, was it originally used by cameron and osborne or was it used against them because it's kind of given spending cuts, a bad name . right. the idea that bad name. right. the idea that labour could even mention the a word just isn't going to happen. >> i'm not sure i think what was disingenuous was that labour always said that it was a sort of choice of cameron osborne to make these cuts. whoever had come in in 2010 would have had to make pretty deep cuts and indeed, alistair darling, in his budget before the election in 2010, set out pretty sweeping cuts as well, >> i'm thinking that, you know, there's always a buzzword, isn't there? and gordon brown very

much was hammering home this idea of the global economic crisis. i think what we were also keen to point out in that situation, where there are also a lot of savings which which could be made, which weren't cuts, you know, and you can still protect some frontline services in the process. but as you say, there's some coverage this morning about wealth taxes that will be needed to plug the fiscal black hole. i'm going to be speaking to steve reid, the environment secretary, about some of this mathematics. a little later . giles, let's move little later. giles, let's move on to the tory leadership, though. front page of the sunday express. well, priti patel will be delighted that she has announced her candidacy and it's made the front page of that newspaper. i mean, the sunday express very much. priti patel's kind of people, i would say on the right , kind of people, i would say on the right, robust on europe were brexiteers think that the grass roots should have a say. what's your analysis? you're going to stay a little later today after the newspapers and be joined by geoff hoon to drill into the detail of the leadership. a bit more, but just on pretty as an individual, what's your analysis of their chances? >> quite pointed in this opinion piece, she talks about empowering the membership and giving them a lot more of a say,

and clearly they'll have the final say on the votes. i think pretty stands a very good chance.i pretty stands a very good chance. i think if she gets to the final two and i think she'll definitely win, she's quite liked by the parliamentary party as well. the problem for her at the moment is that she doesn't poll that well with the public. yeah, if you get someone coming through a bit like how david cameron did in 2005, who might not be the front runner, but does very well in public polling, that might get them over the line. so i think, look, it's wide open at the moment. it's like the grand national. i think you're going to have six, seven people running in it. and i think a lot of mps are going to be holding their council over the summer and not rushing to support people. so there's plenty of time for people who are a bit further back in the race to come forward on that membership front. >> you could say that that's self—interested because she knows she is going to be popular with the membership, so she needs to end up in that final two on the final ballot. however, this talk in the past of sort of cutting out the membership and maybe this is slightly associated with cameroonian politics on on the tories, is that right? i mean, the membership have to have a say. i know that actually having a similar debate in labour, there's a story today suggesting

that keir starmer wants to cut out the membership to ensure that candidates like angela rayner can never be prime minister. but what's your thought? >> no, i think it's important that they have a stake in in the leadership. i mean, there has been talk of possibly changing the dynamics and membership. membership. choose the final three, then the mps vote. but certainly they've got to have some buy in. i'm, you know, big believer in that. >> yeah i think that they would be in uproar if they didn't. and also a lot of these members are, of course, the activists that go on the stump. >> yeah, they are the sort of the boots on the ground who actually help deliver the votes. >> the thin or thick blue line, as they say, well, we'll get on to leadership because as i say, you're staying after the break so we can have a further chat about that. but let's talk about the new cctv that has emerged from manchester airport . so, from manchester airport. so, charles, you'll be familiar with the story in the week involving two brothers, a fight at terminal two. we got some of the footage, didn't we? we got somebody filming it as a police officer appeared to kick one of the brothers and stamp on his head. the brothers and stamp on his head . that obviously then head. that obviously then provoked an outroar. there was,

a protest outside rochdale police station. it was pelted with eggs, sort of had some agitators saying, we're going to cause havoc . to be fair, it was cause havoc. to be fair, it was all largely peaceful, but we've now got a little bit of a different side to this story. >> yeah, you've got the sort of, i think the full version now, which actually shows some really brutal images of the three policemen. well, police officers being attacked, a woman being brutally hit to the ground. and you have to ask why this footage wasn't released quicker. but also i would say that there were some politicians who were a bit too quick to rush to judgement in this kind of age of a twitter pile on name names, charles, who did you think? i think there were a couple of couple of labour mps who just just too quick. and i think to be fair to andy burnham, he did say at the start, this is a complicated picture and was measured in his language. i think other people should have followed him there. >> do you think it's a problem these days for the police to constantly be being filmed? on one hand, you've got body cam footage that the press always asked for in an event like this, and actually you don't get it until months later. the void is

then filled with punters standing around with their mobile phones . it's selective mobile phones. it's selective recording in a way, because somebody gets this bit, they haven't got their phone out in time. they've missed the beginning, oh, they've missed the end. it's difficult. we saw this during the pro—palestinian marches with like selective pieces of footage. then incriminating the police in difficult situations. >> i mean, it's hard. the genie's out of the bottle. yeah, i think it's the reality they are going to get filmed, but i think it's important that people are measured, especially politicians. there isn't a rush to judgement in this situation . to judgement in this situation. police have an incredibly, incredibly difficult job. >> i wrote a column at the weekend basically saying that in this case, what i couldn't quite understand is greater manchester police said that they would take the officer concerned off operational duties pending an independent investigation by the body that investigates the police. so you then therefore see due process being followed. it's like we're a rule of law nation. that's what should happen. and yet increasingly we see that people want more than that. you know, they're not quite happy with the idea of an

independent investigation to find out what went wrong on both sides. they want to go and throw eggs at the police station. >> this culture of immediacy where everyone needs a verdict right now, we need a rush to judgement. we need to know right away without actually being considered. and i think it's to the detriment of public debate that we're in this situation. >> and also for the police. i think, you know, they're going about trying to do their jobs and everything is automatically bearin and everything is automatically bear in mind, suzanne, airport so highly charged, highly security. >> exactly. worried about some kind of terror attack. >> indeed. so, let's have a look now. right. a couple of really interesting stories. one, talking about gabriel pogrund has written this for the sunday times, and it's talking about a man called iqbal muhammad, who had previously who has been elected as the new mp for dewsbury and batley. now, charles, you need to explain the sort of law on this one first, because this man basically is sort of standing on a platform. there's video that the sunday times has obtained of him during the election campaign kind of

saying, i'm paraphrasing, but, you know, if you're a good muslim , if you believe in the muslim, if you believe in the prophet muhammad, then it's probably best to for vote me. your reaction to that, first of all, and then an explainer as to why that shouldn't really be happening. >> yeah, i mean, look, i'm no expert in this, but apparently he was saying you've got to follow the teacher's teachings of the prophet, and it could be that he breached electoral law by putting undue spiritual pressure on people. i think it comes back to what we were saying before. politicians sit in a position of responsibility to be very careful on the language they use, and i would make the observation that i think particularly at the moment, we should be focusing much more on what unites us rather than divides us. and i think this is one of the failings of labour's policy on multiculturalism, as it sort of saw communities in silos, as opposed to thinking how can we bind communities together on election night? >> because i know you were working as was i. in a way, the portillo moment turned out to be jonathan ashworth losing in leicester, didn't it? and michael himself would say it has to be a portillo. if for it to

be a portillo moment, you have to not be expecting it. so that didn't apply to jeremy hunt, penny morden, you know, grant shapps and all the others. you could half argue for liz truss, but it looked like the writing was on the wall a few days before that, ashworth being unseated and the problems that labour had being re—elected, not just in ilford, where wes streeting is the mp, but in birmingham and a number of seats in birmingham. i mean, in general. what was your reaction to that on the night, this sort of surge in these pro—palestinian candidates knocking labour off their perch? >> well, i think it showed . i >> well, i think it showed. i mean, you had a lot more independent mps, analysts. i think in 70, 80 years this time i think made the wider observation that kind of the days of people having hard core party political affiliations has gone the electorates a lot more volatile. i think also for all mps, they can't take their seats for granted. they've really got to work them. >> do you think this is something that's going to be on the rise? i mean, we'll have to see what these independents do. do they ban together? do they campaign as one? >> i think you might see a lot more. i think electorates a lot more. i think electorates a lot

more volatile. hence why you had that, you know, five years ago, it would have been inconceivable to have said that starmer could have come back with a majority, let alone a stonking majority. and i think it just shows. so i think equally like whilst conventional wisdom would say, the tories will probably, you know, lose the next election, i don't think it's a done deal because i think there is such volatility in the system. >> let's just look at a final kind of related story. hate cleric with his own army raises 3 million to create islamic homeland on scottish island. this is a story in the mail on sunday. it concerns a man called sheikh yasser al—habib, who claimed asylum in britain 20 years ago after fleeing his nafive years ago after fleeing his native kuwait. and he's basically trying to buy the island of torsa in the inner hebndes island of torsa in the inner hebrides and set up a sort of, well, an islamic state with shana well, an islamic state with sharia law on this island. i mean, it seems like a remarkable story . your reaction to this? yeah. >> i mean, i can't say, you know, my initial reactions, i doesn't feel like particularly a good thing because once again, it's kind of a community living isolated off from the rest of

the uk. i think it will raise raise alarm bells. i don't know how close it is to happening. and why we're in this situation, but yeah, it seems so strange. >> i'm just looking at the map here. it's near the isle of mull and oban. i mean, you make that point about more that unites us than divides us. have we had a problem in this country with perhaps some of the different leaders of these faiths, faiths not getting together and trying to create more heart feels like we're living in disharmonious times. >> yeah, we live in a situation where the debate is very binary, when a lot of the time it is not black and white, it's grey. so yeah, absolutely. i'm going to be speaking to dave rich, who's written a book about anti—semitism, a little later on the show, so i'm sure he'll also give us his pennyworth on how we could all get on a little better with each other. >> giles, you're hanging around because you're going to do a leadership chat with geoff hoon, the former labour defence secretary, in just a moment. so don't go anywhere because we're going to be drilling into the detail of who's standing who looks likely to get through to the round at least of four, who might end up in the final two, and what all of the different

prospects are and i'm going to ask geoff hoon an interesting question, which is who would keir starmer fear the most? across the despatch box? don't go

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. right. let's talk about the tory leadership race. because somebody has to. and i'm joined back in the studio by giles cunningham and geoff hoon, former defence secretary. you can't say geoff just because you're on the left that you don't care about this because it is important, because we must pick a leader of the opposition that can take the fight to laboun that can take the fight to labour. first question though, chaps, are we picking a leader of the opposition or are we picking a potential future prime minister? and i ask that because we could have a kind of interim holding the fort type candidate until somebody better rises, like a phoenix from the flames

of what's left of the tories. jeff, what do you reckon? >> well, i think it could be some time before a conservative candidate emerges who's capable of being prime minister and the reason is that political parties have a problem in the sense that their membership believe in things. they join political parties because they want to do things inside the party. the reality is, most members of the pubuc reality is, most members of the public only really take notice of politics, general election time, and then probably briefly, with the result that there's a gap between the people that parties choose to be their leader and the people who the electorate choose to be prime minister. and it means generally speaking, that the political parties choose people who are like them. so if you're a member of the conservative party, and i have to say it applies equally to the labour party, the people who vote in a one member, one vote final decision are people

who are choosing candidates who feel and look like them. they are not necessarily the people that the country wants to lead the country. charles >> well, look, i think the jury is still out. i think there needs to be a long campaign, which there is going to be to test people. i mean, you saw what happened when theresa may was anointed in effectively a coronation when she wasn't tested. so i think i don't know yet. i mean, there isn't a big talent pool that is clear. you know, you've got 120, 121 mps to choose from. so i think we could have a situation where, yeah, this person is basically just a holding sort of leadership, and maybe someone else will come through in a by—election, potentially down the line. >> let's go through the candidates and then you can give me very brief reactions to both. if you don't mind. james cleverly, former home secretary jeff . jeff. >> well, the same point i've just made. he will appeal to the conservative faithful. i don't think he appeals to the electorate. >> maybe the electorate doesn't really know him. he's not that recognisable as a character, is he? >> well, he's had some big jobs and he ought to be known amongst

the public, but i just don't think they will go for him . think they will go for him. >> charles, good media performer, reasonably well liked in the party. could see him coming through as a compromise candidate . candidate. >> compromise candidate. all right, fair enough . suella right, fair enough. suella braverman. i mean, i've got her down, but we haven't heard anything from camp braverman. there's suggestions. she doesn't even have the ten mp support to make it onto this first list. the long list ? the long list? >> yeah, well, presumably it's quite difficult to get ten tory mps at the moment, given the size of the field already running. >> well, yeah. if we've got seven candidates all needing a different ten, then that's up to 70 already. and then there's only what, 50 left? charles, is it surprising that she hasn't gained any more momentum because she's been very vocal. >> very vocal, but no, i think she's out, i think you don't think she's going to be. most of her supporters have gone to jenrick. i think we would have heard something from her by now. i don't think she'll make the final. the final cut. >> jeff mel stride , now former >> jeff mel stride, now former work and pensions, appeared a lot on the broadcast round. sometimes it's hard when you get

landed with the broadcast round because you can't do enough kind of constituency campaigning. maybe that was jonathan ashworth's problem as well. i know there was sort of sectarian terrorism involved in leicester, but it was also on the broadcast around the whole time. i mean , around the whole time. i mean, outside chance mel stride or could he be that candidate nobody's thought of that could just rise through the middle? >> i don't know much about him, frankly, but at the same time, appearing on the television is a very helpful way of projecting your image and your appeal to an electorate that's spread right across the country. >> so that will give him a boost. certainly, charles, what do we know about mel stride ? do we know about mel stride? >> look, he's been a competent media performer. steady hand on the tiller. i think for the tories, they need someone younger. if they're going to be talking about, you know, optimism. >> he's most charismatic either the most charismatic and he is plus 16. >> i think they need to go for someone. yeah as i said a little bit younger. >> who do you think keir starmer would fear most. >> none of the above at the moment. >> i've got kemi down as the person i thought, because she had quite a good go at angela rayner last week in the house of commons. it's sort of gone viral

online. i mean, she doesn't pull any punches. that could be a problem, charles. we'll get on to that in a minute. >> but jeff well, going back to what i said earlier, the challenge to labour has to come from the centre, maybe centre. right. | from the centre, maybe centre. right. i don't believe that it can come from the from the right of the tory party. but by and large, the conservative membership will choose and have generally chosen the candidate who's furthest to the right. >> but what are you saying? that you don't think badenoch's right wing enough then? >> well, they've got a problem because they've got to appeal to a right wing conservative membership in order to win the leadership . but then they've got leadership. but then they've got to appeal to the country, who i believe are broadly in the centre and don't want a right winger. >> starmer did that. he totally tapped left and then tapped back. the centre to buy off the corbynites. so he's 2020. >> he's a corbyn classic kind of 2024. he's a blairite is but the difference today for the conservative party it seems to me, is that you've got this group on the right, so you've got reform . got reform. >> and i would have thought that

the election of a new leader will be all about their relationship with reform and how to out farage farage. >> josh, just on badenoch. i mean , on one hand, people love mean, on one hand, people love her because she's really punchy and she says what she thinks and she doesn't hold back. could also be a problem for her though. >> yeah. i mean, look, she's got to be a unifying figure at this point. and i know that she does in certain pockets of the tory party polarise opinion. so she's got to sort of bring that constituent constituency with her. in relation to who would starmer fear the most ? look, starmer fear the most? look, he's not a great orator. he's not particularly light on his feet. he's no blair, he's no cameron in the house of commons. i don't think it's clear yet who the star is, who the tory star performer is, but i think he's there to be taken, certainly. and pmqs pretty, pretty. >> patel, jeff, i think too much. >> been around a long time. >> been around a long time. >> too much baggage, too much baggage. she's. i think she's someone who, again, might. well appeal to the conservative party faithful, but will go down like a bomb in the country. >> well, she's not very popular

on social media, but that's not necessarily a it's not like the wider public, though, is it? >> it's kind of its own echo chamber. look her pretty, i'd say. look very popular with the membership. i think it goes to the final two. she'll definitely win and quite well liked by mps as well. i think the key for her is she needs to poll better with the public and to see if those poll ratings improve during the wider public. >> beyond the tory kind of support, can we talk about tom tugendhat? we did have a little chat about it out there , didn't chat about it out there, didn't we? and let's be honest, two years ago, he's saying he wouldn't leave the echr. this week he writes an op ed in the telegraph saying, oh, actually i would, but in the same op ed says, i'm somebody who keeps my promises and we must build trust. was that a mistake, charles? >> well, i think he's like he's trying to square off the right of the party, and then he'll tap back at the centre. i mean, look, i think he's still got a chance. you know, he is probably the one nation favourite sort of, but if he's in the final two verses, someone who's more on the right, like patel, i would think he'd probably lose. >> he'll lose on the final ballot. i mean, this is your point, jeff. this kind of man might appeal to the country at large because he's more

centrist. he's already flip flopping on week one. >> i think the risk of doing that, and i've got a long memory in these things, is what happened to michael portillo . happened to michael portillo. michael portillo should have been the leader of the conservative party but before the decision, he basically tapped to the left to try and pick up centre ground support. as a result, the people on the right didn't trust him and the centrist mps didn't trust him ehhen centrist mps didn't trust him either. and i think tom tugendhat, the problem now , tugendhat, the problem now, although he is the kind of figure that i think should lead the conservative party and would be an effective opposition leader, the reality is by doing what he's done on the echr, i really wonder whether some of the centre ground mps might question what he's up to, but those of them left very quickly. >> well, no, go on to ask. >> we've got two minutes. so it's interesting, if you get a candidate, say he's second or third, but they poll so far ahead with the public, they may come through. i mean, that's what happened to cameron. i think he was number two. number three in the race. then frank luntz, the republican pollster, did a poll for newsnight which showed that amongst the public

people preferred him to gordon brown , you know, to the lib dems. >> and then the tory base says, well, hang on a minute. >> they weren't necessarily in love with him, but they thought, this guy can win. so i think there's still that. >> but i think the big difference there and it happened with tony blair, i think it happened with keir starmer and it certainly happened with david cameron. is that the party that they led had been out of power for a very long time, and then the electorate, that is the members of the party realised they got to choose somebody who appealed to the country. we're not at that point yet. the tory party have not been out of power for long enough, and that's why they chose in the past, people like iain duncan smith, a thoroughly decent man, but not someone who appealed to the electorate. >> very quick word on robert jenrick. we wouldn't want to leave him out. time is running out so quickly, giles. he's been on a journey and he wants to take the conservatives on the same journey. >> yeah, he's been on a journey. he's been positioning to do this for a long time. it all started when he stepped down. he resigned in protest. >> the studio sat there. i said, you've had a haircut and lost some weight. do you want to run for the tory leadership? oh no. >> the next thing we learned when he resigned as immigration

minister, look, he's the one at the moment. he's got momentum. he feels like he's picked off a lot of braverman supporters very briefly, jeff, when he comes from my part of the world, the east midlands, he's certainly made a name for himself and i can see him being quite a strong candidate. >> what's interesting about jenrick as well is he seems to have sucked up a lot of that suella braverman previous support. so the common sense group of tories , if that isn't group of tories, if that isn't an oxymoron, are now backing him rather than her, which means braverman might not end up declaring at all next week. but let's wait and see. well, thank you very much to giles and indeed to jeff. that very convivial chat between blue and red about the future of the tory leadership. coming up next, i'm going to be speaking to labour minister steve reed. stay tuned. it's feisty

welcome back. much more to come. in the next hour, i'm going to be joined by the shadow

paymaster general and close ally of rishi sunak, john glenn, and the environmental environment secretary, steve reed will join me for what turned out to be quite a feisty interview earlier today. but first, here's the news with ray addison . news with ray addison. >> thanks, camilla. good morning. just after 10 am, our top stories this hour, manchester's mayor is urging people not to rush to judgement following thursday's incident at an airport. andy burnham's comments follow the publication of new video obtained by manchester evening news, which appears to show a violent altercation in the lead up to a suspect being kicked by a police officer. the constable is under criminal investigation for assault . mr criminal investigation for assault. mr burnham says it's a complicated situation with two sides to it. former met detective peter bleksley agrees. >> there's a number of people that look really daft this morning who were very quick to rush to judgement with

absolutely appalling language being pointed in the direction of certain police officers and this incident now , which i again this incident now, which i again reiterate, we still have not seen all of is going to test, of course, our police, the independent office for police conduct, the crown prosecution service, the greater manchester police, and i would say, where's the home secretary? where's the prime minister >> priti patel has become the fifth mp to enter the tory leadership race. the former home secretary says she can unite the party and turn it back into, quote, a winning machine. she joins james cleverly, tom tugendhat, robert jenrick and mel stride running to replace rishi sunak. nominations close tomorrow. former deputy chair of the conservative party, brendan clarke—smith told us mr patel will be popular with members. is it a good line up there? but i

think if you look at priti patel and particularly a relationship with party members as well, they felt very unloved, some of them fairly demoralised after the election campaign. >> they need somebody who can pick them up again, someone with a bit of vision, someone who's a real blue blooded conservative. and i think priti patel, she actually fits that description pretty well. i'd say. >> labour is set to overhaul planning rules to build 1.5 million homes in five years. writing in the observer, angela rayner said that delivering social and affordable houses at scale is her number one priority. this week , the deputy priority. this week, the deputy pm and housing secretary will announce plans to bring back mandatory housing targets . mandatory housing targets. she'll also outline a focus on green belt land , building on green belt land, building on disused car parks and wasteland . disused car parks and wasteland. a man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder after a woman sustained a serious head injury in suffolk. 57 year old anita rose had been walking her dog when she was found unconscious in brantham

shortly after 8 am. on wednesday. she remains in a critical condition. a 45 year old man from the ipswich area is currently being questioned. it's not believed that the suspect was known to the victim. israel has carried out air attacks against hezbollah in lebanon overnight after a rocket killed 12 people, including children, in an israeli occupied area of golan heights . well, israel has golan heights. well, israel has released this footage, which it says shows weapons cache caches and terrorist infrastructure being targeted deep inside lebanese territory. the country has vowed to inflict a heavy price after a rocket struck a football pitch in the village of majdal shams, the deadliest attack on israeli territory since the start of the conflict . since the start of the conflict. those are the latest gb news headunes those are the latest gb news headlines for now , i'm ray headlines for now, i'm ray addison more in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code,

or go to gbnews.com. >> forward slash alerts . >> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts. >> thank you. ray, welcome back. in just a minute i'm going to be speaking to the shadow paymaster general, john glen, a close ally of rishi sunak. what does he make of the tory candidates vying to replace him as tory leader? i'm going to be joined by the environment secretary, steve reed. will the government continue to lay the ground for a there's no money left statement tomorrow , and i'm going to be tomorrow, and i'm going to be joined by lord craig mackinlay and ask him who would be best suhed and ask him who would be best suited to lead the tories and see off the threat from nigel rafe. i was going to say nigel reform nigel farage and reform and dave rich is going to share his new book, which looks at why anti—semitism is still a huge issue today . even more so, of issue today. even more so, of course, after the events of october 7. but i'm delighted to be joined now by shadow paymaster general john glen, the mp for salisbury and south

wiltshire. lovely to see you this morning, mr glen. thank you so much for your time on a sunny sunday. yeah let's talk about labour continually suggesting that they didn't know what economic legacy they were inheriting. i mean, you were in the treasury for five years. we'll get on to whether the legacy is as bad as they think in just a moment. but just in general, did they know what they were getting? how does it work? are the public accounts all available? they're talking about not knowing about a £20 billion black hole. >> it's absolutely ridiculous. you know, when we set up the office of budget responsibility, it's all open. they mirror the treasury's figures every fiscal event and there's complete transparency. and we showed how we balance the book. now, there's many people who've been on your show here over the last six months who are frustrated that we didn't have enough tax cuts. we made difficult decisions to balance the books. and, you know, we got inflation to down 2%. you know, we saw that, you know , we were the that, you know, we were the fastest growing economies, the

fastest growing economies, the fastest growing economies, the fastest growing economy . first fastest growing economy. first quarter of the year. we'd love to have faster growing economies across the g7. but that hasn't happened. across the g7. but that hasn't happened . there are always happened. there are always pressures. every fiscal event, every spending department will say we need a bit more chancellor. we need a bit more here and a bit more there. and to govern is to take those tough decisions and to put reforms in place to reduce the number of civil servants , the welfare civil servants, the welfare reforms that we said to get that, you know, additional, you know, thousands of people, tens of thousands of people back into work. and it's by taking those decisions that you manage some of those pressures. and indeed, last year when we had the review of public, the pay review bodies, we didn't borrow more or increase taxes. we made departments absorb those additional costs costs. >> having said that, you've made yourselves such easy targets for criticism , haven't you? i mean, criticism, haven't you? i mean, the public listens to rachel reeves talking about having inherited the worst set of economic circumstances since the second world war. they believe her. i mean, you could argue in

kind of counter to that . well, kind of counter to that. well, we had to deal with covid and we had to deal with the war in ukraine and all the rest of it. you know, the tax burden has gone up under the tories. so you've squandered your reputation for fiscal discipline and you've conceded to labour. >> we've had this, we've had this discussion before. when you borrow that quantum of money, you can't just wipe it out. just like that. you've got high levels of debt, interest. and if you look at public sector net borrowing, when we came into power in 2010, it was 10.3%. it's now 4.4% completely different. we've taken those tough decisions, but you can't just just shout, we need more tax cuts and we've lost credibility because of that. when you don't take account of the extent of the borrowing and money that was spent to keep the economy and the country going, and then, of course, the displacements in the public services weren't going to be fixed overnight. it's an incredibly painful legacy for the party and for for and us. but, you know, it's one that we've got to come to terms with. >> all right. let's move on to

the leadership. there's quite a lot of talk, just kind of like in the tea room. and beyond that, journalists are picking up on myself included. but although he said he wants to serve for another four years rishi sunak that he's not that comfortable being interim leader for that long, that there was a caucus of people himself included, sort of agitating for this leadership race to be done a little quicker. he's got to stay until november. is he still going to be around and an mp next year, do you think? mr >> glenn, i very much expect so. look, he took on the leadership , look, he took on the leadership, in 2022 after he'd lost it in the summer, and he never had the support that was required, the unity that was required despite moving forward with the windsor framework, taking a number of bold decisions and getting our inflation to down 2% and, you know, really doing what was right in difficult political circumstances. he's a man of great integrity. he will do what is required for the party. i'm sure he feels he does feel this

defeat personally. he's taken responsibility for it. and i think most people recognise the way he's conducted himself . it way he's conducted himself. it demonstrates, you know, the man's great personal qualities. >> but can you guarantee mr glenn that he'll still be around in 4 to 5 years time, when the tories come to fight the next general election? >> look , i can't speak for he >> look, i can't speak for he said he'll stay for the whole of this parliament. he's got two young children at school. i can't predict i don't know where i will be in 4 or 5 years time. we don't know what the future holds. i very much hope so. i think he's got a lot to contribute to national life. i work closely with him in the treasury and i have a very high regard for him. >> all right then, mr glenn, let's have a look at some of these candidates. you'll be familiar with the names by now. who takes your fancy mel stride james cleverly. tom tugendhat, priti patel, robert jenrick look, i rate them all. >> they've all made a significant contribution in different ways. i think what we what i think the conservative party needs to do is come to

terms with this, historic, catastrophic defeat, show a degree of humility and reflection over the summer, and allow our membership to be driving the outcome of this selection process . so i'm not selection process. so i'm not going to be drawn on who i'd be supporting yet, because i want to see all of them address many dimensions of the challenges we face, both as a party, but more importantly, as a country. and there's two things here. there's about who's the most credible figure to be leading us in opposition and who's going to then, you know, actually on the back of that, be credible as a future candidate to be prime minister and i think we need the a lot of scrutiny over the next 3 or 4 months. i respect all of them for having the courage to stand, and i hope that we'll have a clean and helpful contest as we lay the foundations for recovery. >> having said that, is it a bit wrongheaded to announce the next leader on november the second, just three days before the us

election? i mean, this is in opposition. you're basically invisible, aren't you, mr glenn? no one really pays that much nofice no one really pays that much notice to what you're saying. this is the tories moment to be in the spotlight, and frankly, it's going to be completely overshadowed by whatever's going on in the us. >> look, events happen all the time. we could have any anything could happen on the world stage orindeed could happen on the world stage or indeed in this country. what's important is that the party have the opportunity at the conference, which seems to be the natural place to be able to actually look at all the candidates close up with the natural point of focus, with members coming together for that event. now, obviously needs to be an interval of time to deal with the voting process. i'm sure the party have done everything they to can work it as quickly as possible, within reasonable parameters . i mean, reasonable parameters. i mean, no question, there's no easy, easy way of doing it. >> there's never an easy way. mr glenn, final question. it looks like suella braverman might not make the cut. that may please and cheer up rishi sunak after a difficult summer, mightn't it? >> well, look, i'm not going to

fuel any more speculations of tensions between candidates. the country has had enough of that. people coming on gb news slagging off different candidates. we need to get on slightly different candidates. well, in over the last few months, you i think you know very well i see you meet miss braverman coming in here and slagging off rishi sunak. >> is that what you mean? >> is that what you mean? >> for months? no, i wasn't meaning that. what i was meaning is i think the country want an orderly, process for selecting a candidate that's clean and honest about where we failed and actually clear—headed about where we need to go. i think that's what the party wants and needs right now. and i wish all the candidates well through that journey. and whoever wins will have my full, loyal support. >> john glenn, thank you very much indeed forjoining me this much indeed for joining me this morning. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. well, >> thank you. well, we've >> thank you. well, we've heard from the tories next we're going to hear from labour. i did the interview with steve great. stay tuned back in

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. earlier on, i was joined by the environment secretary, steve reed. environment secretary, steve reed . it's a great interview. reed. it's a great interview. stay tuned for it, because this is what he had to say. well, steve reed, the environment secretary and the mp for streatham and croydon north, joins me now in the studio. lovely to see you. thank you very much for coming in. rivers, i know our audience is very concerned about how polluted they are, not just rivers, actually our seas too. i noticed some coverage about surfers up in arms this morning about the state of our waters. what's labour going to do about it ? labour going to do about it? >> well, first of all, people are absolutely furious about the polluted state of our rivers, lakes and our seas. last year we saw record levels of sewage being pumped into our waterways. it's damaging tourism. it's making kids sick if they go to paddle. we even had the oxford

and cambridge boat race, where some of the rowers were getting sick as well. it's happening because the conservative government turned a blind eye while the water companies were pumping this stuff into the waterways . so labour is going to waterways. so labour is going to get a grip of the situation within seven days of the election. and my appointment as environment secretary, i had the water company bosses in my office and they signed up to an initial package of measures. there's more in the king's speech. we've put forward a water special measures bill, and that includes bringing back accountability into the system. so if water bosses keep pumping these levels of raw sewage into our waterways, they'll face criminal charges. we'll give the regulator the power they need to ban the payment of the multi—million pound bonuses they've been awarding themselves, despite overseeing this kind of catastrophic failure. and we're going to ring fence customers money that is earmarked for investment in improving the sewage infrastructure so that if it's not spent on that, it gets refunded. back to customers in discounts off their bills. so by

taking measures like that, common sense measures, we focus the sector on cleaning up our water rather than lining their own. >> have you set any target on that? from a time perspective, when do you expect water quality to be improved by? >> well, we're working right now by strengthening. it's a it's an interesting aspect of the problem this. but by strengthening regulation and applying it more consistently, we make the sector more investable. so we're hoping to bnngin investable. so we're hoping to bring in £88 billion of private sector investment, not taxpayers money. private sector investment over the five years of this government, so that we can see visible improvement over that time . time. >> the water companies been given targets, you know, water quality must improve by. they will be as soon as we've got that, that investment secured, we will be sitting down with them and making clear what we expect to see by when, you know, we need to get away from the sticking plaster approach. >> there's a there's a very profound problem here. it's going to take it's not an

overnight fix. we need a long term plan, but we will make sure that it's broken down into milestones along the way. so the pubuc milestones along the way. so the public can see whether or not the water companies are meeting the water companies are meeting the targets that we give them, and that £88 billion investment, which you're saying is going to be made by private companies. >> that's right. how much is it going to cost the taxpayer, though, to help clean up our waters ? waters? >> well, it cost the taxpayer anything . this will come in anything. this will come in through private sector investment. there ofwat has proposed an increase in bills over the next over the next four years. now, had the previous government taken these measures 14 years ago, then the sewage system would not have crumbled to the extent that it has and it wouldn't be necessary to put our bills up. but there will. we will not be turning to the taxpayer. this is private sector investment. 88 billion actually is the biggest ever investment in the water sector and will be the second biggest investment in the second biggest investment in the entire economy over the last term of this government is that over the course of this parliament, this parliament? yeah, just this parliament. i mean, that's jobs, it's

well—paid jobs up and down the country starting to do the work of rebuilding our infrastructure, but it will clean up our waterways , eventually. >> i'm sure the taxpayer will be gratified not to have to shoulder the burden of this, not least because rachel reeves, the chancellor, is suggesting that there's a 20 billion black hole in the finances. now, there's a 20 billion black hole in the finances . now, the ifs, in the finances. now, the ifs, the institute for fiscal studies, says it's not credible to say that because all of the pubuc to say that because all of the public accounts are, by their definition, public. so how can she be saying that she's surprised by this black hole? you've known what's in the pubuc you've known what's in the public finances for years, haven't you? >> well, sadly, we didn't, because the conservative government were not open and transparent about what was going on.and transparent about what was going on. and we've come in now. well, didn't they an absolutely catastrophic show the accounts dunng catastrophic show the accounts during the last budget was the ifs and other bodies, including the obr, had to pore through them. >> so labour had access to the accounts. >> well, let me give you a i'll give you a i'll give you a couple of examples of, of how and what they covered up. so the rwanda gimmick, they, we believed going into the election because the government, the

previous government was telling us that they had spent £400 million to send just four volunteers to rwanda. it turns out when yvette cooper is appointed home secretary and goes into the department, it was 700 million. that is 75% more than we were told, 300 million that the conservatives cannot say how they're going to fund. it's examples like that, that have inflated this black hole and that this government intends to be open and transparent about doing the audit. and rachel will be reporting on that tomorrow. how could and then as we work towards the budget, how are we going to get the public finances back in order? >> should rachel reeves have campaigned during the election, saying that the fiscal situation was fully known because, she said labour policy was, quote, fully funded and fully costed? no ifs, no ands, no buts. she must have done the maths before you came into power. >> well, you you can't add in spending that the government's covered up because the previous government's covered up because you don't know it's happened. everything in labour's manifesto

is fully funded. so the increases in public spending that we laid out in the manifesto were fully costed. so, you know, the increase, increasing funding from closing the non—doms loophole, tax loophole so we can fund 40,000 additional nhs points every week thatis additional nhs points every week that is already funded. >> all right. but you fully costed, for instance , putting costed, for instance, putting vat, scrapping vat on private school fees. you've suggested that will raise 1.6 billion. in fact we find out today that figures from hmrc suggest you'll only raise 650 million. so you haven't fully costed it, have you? because you're only making back half the amount from the vat scrappage scheme that you thought you it is it. >> it's all fully costed, but hang on, these are hmrc figures. >> are we not believing hmrc? >> are we not believing hmrc? >> well, we're going to get we're going to work towards a budget later in the year in the autumn. and as we work towards the budget, all departments, including mine, are going through a spending review process where we identify ways we can make the departments more efficient. we'll see where that ends up. i mean, there's no point speculating a bit

worrying, isn't it? >> if hmrc think that you're only going to claw back half the amount you hoped , you've then amount you hoped, you've then got your own 650 million shortfall on one policy? i'm not. >> i'm not aware at all. >> i'm not aware at all. >> i'm not aware at all. >> i mean, it's in today's papen >> i mean, it's in today's paper, i'm not aware at all that they've said that. >> but let me give you another example of what we were told and what we actually found when we came into government prisons. it's such an important issue because the outgoing conservative government told us that there were enough places in our prisons that prisoners could be held securely. shabana mahmood was appointed as secretary of state for justice, went into the department and was told that rishi sunak had received a letter ahead of the election, telling him that there was a critical failure. point being reached, and by august there would be no further prison places, so judges would not be able to incarcerate criminals who deserved custodial because there would be no prison places being released and we have had to take immediate action to stop that. >> well, that was something the previous, but this is something that did say he was prime minister, the same the prime minister, the same the prime minister, he said after the election. >> he didn't say before the prime minister knew about this,

had a letter telling him what it was. >> but we had known for a long time. he covered it up that the prisons had been full. haven't we? we've known that for a long, long time. we've speculated that prisons are fit to burst. >> the conservative government was denying it, but we now >> the conservative government was denying it , but we now know was denying it, but we now know that they knew that the prisons are in a terrible state, so labour should be sure. i hope the public will be surprised that the outgoing conservative prime minister covered up the true facts to try and get through a general election. pfisons through a general election. prisons without being held to account. >> we've got £20 billion black holes in the finances. so how are you going to pay to try and fill this black hole? we know who you won't tax. you're not going to tax working people whatever that means. so what are you going to tax stories today that you're going to increase capital gains tax. we know that you're considering, for instance, scrapping tax breaks on passing down agricultural land that will go down well with people in rural communities. well, there's all sorts of speculation and that's all it is. well, how will you make the money? >> speculation. labour's been absolutely clear. we're not going to put up income tax. vat or national insurance will you

tax because working people are currently paying the highest rates of personal tax since the end of the second world war. you're saying because of the conservative party, you've got you've inherited a terrible financial legacy? >> we're getting the message loud and clear. it's 14 years of tory rule. there's 20 billion missing from the finances. tory rule. there's 20 billion missing from the finances . so missing from the finances. so who or what are you going to tax to make up that money? >> what we're going to do is break out of this tory doom loop of a low growth economy, leading to a high tax economy. and those two things go hand in hand. labour's approach will not be to have recourse to further taxation . taxation. >> labour's you're ruling out any tax rises. >> labour's approach will be to grow the economy. and we've already started making the announcements that will grow the economy. 1.5 million new homes is jobs and investment up and down the country. gb energy is energy infrastructure up and down the country. as we harness the power of wind , wave, solar the power of wind, wave, solar and nuclear energy, the net zero target billion i just talked about that we hope to get into the water sector is also jobs

and investment up and down the country. >> you mentioned gb energy. how much is your net zero target in six years time going to cost? we still haven't got any idea at all. we had darren jones, during the election campaign, he was caught on a secret recording that featured in the telegraph saying it would cost hundreds of billions. >> so it will cut people's bills. but it it will help people with the cost of living crisis , cutting bills and crisis, cutting bills and creating jobs, investment up . creating jobs, investment up. >> everybody wants me. i get that. and i understand the argument. >> the tax return to the exchequer without raising tax. >> i totally understand the argument about self—sufficiency. goodness me. we've witnessed with our own bills in recent years that we need to be more self—sufficient and not reliant on others for our energy. but there's a disconnect here because we've got rachel reeves talking about having inherited the worst economic legacy since the worst economic legacy since the second world war. we've got talk of 20 billion black holes. we've got talk of ambitious net zero energy targets to be met in six years time, which is undoubtedly going to be costly. and at no point can any minister

come into this studio and ever tell me how you're going to get the money to pay for this black hole to be filled? so you're saying you won't tax working people investment, predominantly private sector investment. >> i know the water sector. >> i know the water sector. >> what incentive would the private sector have to invest further with corporation tax now up 6% from where it was before and the labour government, now in its third week, talking about increases to regulation and red tape , in what way does that tape, in what way does that encourage further investment? >> what you're talking those tax rises you're talking about were tory tax rises. >> the conservative party did that. oh, so you're going to bnng that. oh, so you're going to bring the corporation tax down the reason the conservatives put taxes up 26 times since the last general election, right, is because they failed to grow the economy. had they grown the economy, just at the rate that labour grew it. we were in power for 13 years, then 14 years there would be 50 were wrong. if this this is an important point. had they done that, there would be £50 billion more in exchequer today to invest in our failing and broken public services . it

and broken public services. it is growth that is the problem. so if the tories didn't grow, the economy. >> so if the tories were wrong to saddle businesses with more corporation tax, are labour going to reverse that increase? what's labour going to do differently ? differently? >> we're going to grow the economy. we're not. it was the conservatives that went back to people's pockets time and time again because they couldn't grow the economy. well, i'll outline these things again. 1.5 million new homes over five years is a massive increase in housebuilding. that is jobs and it's investment, both for the construction industry and all of the supply chain. the housing targets that you've set are the same as david cameron's, but okay, so building most all of his but 1 million homes, we are changing parliament. we're changing parliament. we're changing the planning rules. we've already announced the outline of those, angela, and i'm sure that's well, make a speech on or later this week. >> but i still the tories didn't change planning rules. >> we're going to that's how you get that in my sector. so it's planning change equals growth automatically because you get more, you get more building. the tories failed to build the

homes. planning is a major barrier to that. so we're going to change the rules so we get more homes built. if you look at my sector i'm responsible for the environment, the water sector. we talked about water pollution earlier on, 88 billion private sector investment in fixing broken infrastructure. that's jobs up and down the country for people who are then employed, who then pay taxes, more money into the revenue, into the exchequer. and then we can invest it in public services. >> i'm just trying to point out we don't need to raise taxes. we don't. okay. so are you ruling out raising any taxes in the next budget, saying there won't be difficult decisions because we've got to correct the problem. >> but our intent, we don't need to raise taxes, but we probably will. the tory approach was to tax people more, i know, so labour's approach is to grow the economy more. >> okay. but i'm saying if you disagree with the tory approach, which put tax burdens at their highest level since the second world war, are you saying that you're bringing that burden down and are you then therefore ruling out further tax time? >> that is the intention over time, people are looking at this intention is to lower the tax

burden on working people, but we do it on working by growing the economy, but not, for instance, on inheritance and not on wealth and not on no plans to do any of these things. i see the newspapers speculating . newspapers speculating. >> black hole gets filled. >> black hole gets filled. >> then i see the newspapers speculating all the time, just as you do . rachel reeves is the as you do. rachel reeves is the chancellor of the exchequer? yes. she will be outlining tomorrow the results of the audh tomorrow the results of the audit that she has conducted across government. we then work through the spending review to the budget that will happen in the budget that will happen in the autumn. tomorrow's not a budget, but labour's approach will be to grow the economy, not to pile on the taxes. that was the tory approach. >> we shall hold you to that, steve. so you should thank you very much indeed forjoining me this morning. thank you . thank this morning. thank you. thank you once again to steve reid. and we do extend that invitation to chancellor rachel reeves to come on and discuss directly with me how the 20 billion black hole is going to be filled. coming up next, i'm going to be joined by former tory mp and soon to be lord craig mackinlay , soon to be lord craig mackinlay, who does, and ask him who he

thinks should be emerging as a tory leader, front runner and as a former ukip. i want him to tell us he thinks the tories take on nigel farage's reform stay

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. craig mckinley is in the studio soon to be. let me just get this right, lord mckinley of richborough, no less. but you haven't. so you've got announced that you're getting a life peerage in the dissolution honours. but you haven't. tell me about the king hasn't signed a very crucial piece of paper. >> yeah, it's quite an ancient thing. i went to the college of arms this week to get the name. agreed. a place i didn't do, i didn't even know existed. frankly quite right to see the garter principal king of arms. how about that for a name. >> i love that someone has that job. i know you do for a living. >> oh, i'm a garter king of arms. so he agrees. your title.

that then has to go as a letters patent for the king to sign. so immediately he signs that which i'm hoping will be done within the next seven days. i will thereafter be lord mckinley of britain. >> and you must be absolutely delighted, because obviously, for everything that you've gone through over the last, well, six months, has it been six months, a bit more, 6 to 8 months, losing all of your limbs. you then decided you couldn't fight then decided you couldn't fight the seat in south thanet. to be fair, boundary change means it's now east thanet and last time we spoke you were sort of thinking, i don't really know what i'm going to do and you want to campaign for sepsis charities and all the rest of it, but to become a life peer, i mean, that must be a huge honour for you. >> it's fantastic. i mean, it gives you skin in the game of politics, gives you a chance to get your voice heard. and i will be loud, as you can imagine. well, that's why we like you on gb news. i'm sure i will be loud, but certainly on issues of sepsis, certainly on getting the proper provision of prosthetics for one good hand, but you're getting the other one replaced, but at your own cost. >> you've said to me. so yes , >> you've said to me. so yes, yeah, the nhs give you these, which is good. if you wanted to smash through this. >> yes. i often say it's good

for breaking windows and pub fights, but when you've got two of those, i'm not entirely sure what you can do with them. or you have to buy one of these for yourself, which is amazing. >> the bionic hand and each can actually give you a life back. well, it's also easier to have a cup of tea with it is, isn't it? let's be honest. right. so let's get straight into the politics of the day. it's interesting this tory leadership race isn't it? i mean, let's talk about some of the righties who you might be more inclined to back. were you still an mp? you've got you can endorse a candidate. the lords won't have a vote, but it doesn't matter. we're just going to speak about it anyway. first of all, this suella braverman not being able to get seemingly enough mps to make it onto that sort of short list or long list, i should call it, before they're whittled down to four and then two. does that surprise you, craig? i mean, she was the sort of darling of the right. she had supporters like john hayes and that common sense group, they all seem to have defected to robert jenrick. what's your reaction to that? >> well, i was an open supporter of her last time round, and i signed her papers and everything else, i don't know. we've got till tomorrow evening. i mean,

kemi badenoch isn't officially on the list yet , but i suppose on the list yet, but i suppose you have to assume that she's going to get over the ten. but we've kind of been hearing that she is declaring tomorrow, as we've heard, nothing from braverman ten hurdles shouldn't be that hard . so i don't know be that hard. so i don't know where suella is at the moment. i haven't spoken to her for some weeks, but you would assume she'd get over the ten. but saying that john hayes, danny kruger, particularly in the common sense group, has swapped his allegiance to robert jenrick. yeah, so yeah, it's going to be there aren't any new names in there ? no. but, yeah, names in there? no. but, yeah, i know them all. and we'll see where it develops. i'm not coming out for anyone at this current time, but i will tell you what will be swaying me. and, you know, i'd hope i would have some sway in my association. say, if i come out with something, people say, oh, well, that's a great thinks. and, you know, we may be persuaded it will be where position is on net zero. >> interesting, because i thought the dividing line was the echr and whether we should be members full enough. >> you might be interested. i wasn't that bothered about echr.

i wasn't years ago. i think i am now because of the obstructions, but that very peculiar rule 39 judgement which stopped that plane from taking off two years ago from stansted. first trip to rwanda. that was rule 39. that, priti patel at the time was home secretary, took advice from civil service and said yeah, i'll go along with that now. i wasn't that bothered because britain complies with 80% of rule 39, which are this rather strange procedure of a judge unknown in chambers in the middle of the night, or judge in middle of the night, orjudge in pyjamas, i often call it. yeah germany complies with 60%. yeah and spain complies with just 40%. yes so if we became a little bit more like spain. yeah i wouldn't be bothered. >> or like belgium, i think belgium is launched all sorts of claims. >> it's like a lot of things. i mean it's probably like eu membership itself. a lot of these countries weren't that bothered. it always seemed to be britain that gold plated everything. so if we were more like them, i don't think i'd be so bothered by echr. >> but you're more bothered about net zero. so you want to

hear a candidate saying we should abandon the target, or what would you like to see? >> i think we've come to a stage where we need to revisit the 2008 climate change act because, frankly, the ability to actually run a modern economy with that around your neck as something that has to be done because it's legislated for it, was made infinitely worse by theresa may's, change from 80% net zero to 100%. that was the last bit that really captured off. i mean, what labour is trying to achieve, the decarbonisation of our electricity system in just five and a half years time is frankly impossible. if the last decade was a decade of the battle for brexit, i can see the next decade being the battle for energy security and cost. yes, this will take the labour party down because i can foresee, i can foresee we will get blackouts. we will end up with higher costs and the public will not. where it all explain the blackouts, because there'll be labour supporters saying this is just scaremongering. well, i mean, if you're trying to get a full system of electricity

supply through windmills and solar panels, yes, it does not work. it cannot work because you've got to account for the days when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. we are being sold a pup. and the trouble is, of course, planning is held up as well. so you want to do a i know, a new road system and it happened in manston airport in my old patch of east kent . the campaigners of east kent. the campaigners against were always raising the climate change act of 2008 says thou shalt not have new roads and new use of that might . and new use of that might. >> we had a bit more carbon neutrality thing. >> neutral, neutral, all of this stuff. all right , can stop stuff. all right, can stop things from happening. and until we address that, we're not going to get the growth that steve reid says is going to get us out of the reads reads steve read and reads, i want to ask you about nigel farage because you were once a ukip er, you then became a tory. >> so you understand the dynamics of these two parties and know that reform is different to ukip, but it's a

party that's positioning itself more on the right of the conservatives. where should the conservatives. where should the conservatives go from here, craig? can they out farage farage should they even try? what should be the direction of travel? >> well, this has been a long story. i, i'm rather disappointed that in 2019 when nigel, under the brexit party set aside his candidates against sitting conservative mps, that was a broad and very generous gesture, helped us to get that 80 seat majority, that historic win, as far as i understand, nobody was reached out to him to say thanks very much. you know, come in the camp, be part of the bigger tent because we're a big tent. yeah, you can under the tories should have said come in the tent. i think so. and he wouldn't have been where he is today. i don't blame him in the i don't blame reform for standing. you know, they've got a right to exist. they've got a right to try and exploit a vacuum that we've created, which would never have allowed that vacuum to create. so we've got to fill that vacuum. now, to me, that doesn't mean what many of our candidates, our conservative leadership candidates are saying. we've all got to be in

this sort of centre to win elections. you've got plenty of centre, go for labour, go for lib dems. i mean, there's plenty of centre out there. there were more votes on the right at this general election. if you add up the conservative votes which collapsed, plus reform equals more than the labour vote, which was a very shallow vote less votes than it got in 2008, about lurching to the right or just honounng lurching to the right or just honouring the manifesto. >> craig, it's not honour your promises. well, just do what you said you'd do in 2019 and then people would have voted for you. >> exactly right, exactly right. >> exactly right, exactly right. >> if you're going to say immigration is coming down, bnng immigration is coming down, bring it down. are you going to say taxes are coming down? bring them down? >> i think the one thing that wasn't discussed enough in the election was the effect of covid and that lockdown. yes. i mean, you can't give out half £1 trillion of stuff, whether that's you know, eat out to help out and all the support mechanisms for employees and businesses. >> that was the former prime minister's fault, right? he wanted to be thanked for third, but it was hardly that that had caused economic calamity. >> it's hardly mentioned in the election. yeah. and you know, this is the reason we've got high taxes and why we're in a situation. yes and the ukraine

war has caused the biggest, you know, the inflation, nothing from what we did internally. this was external shocks. we didn't really mention that enough. so that put us off course. there's no doubt about that. but you know , if we want that. but you know, if we want to be conservatives, there's a conservative vote out there. it was there in 2019. it was a broad church that swept us to power. we should be going back to that and trying to achieve power on the back of, in my view, more of a right of centre than centre approach. >> lord craig mckinley of richborough, about to be announced as next week. thank you very much indeed for joining us in the studio. lovely to see you and lovely to see you looking so well as well, craig. well, coming up next, i'm going to be discussing anti—semitism with dave rich, whose new book looks at why it's still relevant and even more prevalent across the world. after, of course, the events of october the 7th don't go

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. i'm delighted to be joined by the author, dave rich, who has updated his book every day. hate how anti—semitism is built into our world and how you can change it, which is available now. and you've updated it, dave , because you've updated it, dave, because of october the 7th. so you wrote this book before you've been involved with the, cst for some time now. you wrote this book, and then october the 7th happened and you felt you needed to update it in light of recent events. >> good morning. that's right. i've been working in this field for around 30 years, and i wrote the book last year to really explain what anti—semitism or anti—jewish hatred is, where it comes from, why it keeps coming back when we think we should have left this prejudice in the past a long time ago. yeah. and then of course, october 7th happened with the appalling hamas terror attack, this wave of global anti—semitism in britain and lots of other countries. and it felt necessary, actually, to update the book to reflect what's happened since then, because it

does feel like we're living in a different world for jewish people now. >> well, why does it keep on coming back? i mean, i appreciate that october the 7th creates a trigger, but this is sort of one of the oldest prejudices in the world, really , prejudices in the world, really, isn't it? i mean, this has been going on for centuries now. >> i mean, that's part of the reason why it keeps happening. something that's been around for so long, it's been so deeply embedded in parts of our culture and politics. it's been very successful at times in mobilising whole political movements and extremists, unfortunately. so it doesn't just disappear. and, you know, you can think there's anti—semitism in shakespeare and in dickens and some of our best love culture, but also at the really violent, vicious extremes of society and at times of real turmoil where people feel they're worried about what's going on in the world. they want someone to blame. anti—semitism gives a very easy answer, and especially then when you have a situation with war in the middle east, israel is at the heart of it. israel is the world's only jewish state. many jewish people

around the world feel deeply connected to it, and every time israel is at war, we get these big waves of anti—semitism in a way that no other foreign conflict ever triggers. it's a really unique reaction that i think reflects some of the kind of obsessions that people have over israel. >> also, the hatred is directed to jews, even if they don't necessarily support netanyahu's government. his approach to gaza or anything. that's the other cunous or anything. that's the other curious thing, the sort of lack of nuance in any of this debate. since october the 7th, i mean, are you concerned at the ignorance that has been on display when people have taken place in part in marches and been chanting from the river to the sea? not really understanding how offensive that is to the jewish community. has something gone wrong, maybe with our education in this country? dave there is so much ignorance and you're absolutely right. >> when we see these anti—semitic hate crimes people shouting abuse and threats at jewish people in the street, they never stop to ask them what they never stop to ask them what they actually think about netanyahu or israel or the conflict. it'sjust netanyahu or israel or the conflict. it's just because they're jewish and they single

them out. it's racism and its most basic form and then what we saw immediately after 7th of october, you started to get these big demonstrations happening , and they were happening, and they were organised literally on the 7th organised literally on the 7th or the 8th of october. you had people with placards saying , we people with placards saying, we support the resistance. it was very clear what they meant. >> are you saying that was insensitively too soon, too reactive ? people had just been reactive? people had just been killed at the festival and elsewhere. >> i think that's absolutely right. and what you have is at the core of this movement, a real hard core of extremists organisations and leaders who effectively support hamas and have no problem with what hamas did. but then you get a huge numbers of very well—meaning, humanitarian people who just want the war to end and the suffering to end, and they follow along behind this movement. and that's where the danger lies, i think. >> would you be more comfortable if people on pro—palestinian marches condemned hamas more? i mean, because there is a difference, isn't there, between people who think, oh, well, you know, hamas don't want to recognise them as terrorists or to support them and their

anti—democratic ways . and anti—democratic ways. and they're in a kind of, you know, extreme subgroup. then you have got the people who are on the marches, not perhaps understanding the complexities of it all. they don't want to be supporting terrorists, but they make that quite legitimate point about sort of protecting life in gaza, where let's be honest, thousands of people are being killed. >> i think that's absolutely right. if these big marches had lots of people carrying placards calling for a ceasefire and for the hostages to all be released, i think a lot of jewish people in this country would feel a lot more comfortable with what they're seeing in their town centres, but we don't see that. we don't see those calls from the stage for the hostages to be released. it's very much a binary presentation of the conflict, as you know, good versus evil. and within that you have these slogans of people basically calling for israel to be completely eliminated, supporting what they call resistance. but in this context, that means hamas. and obviously that means hamas. and obviously that sends a chill down the spine of many jewish people around the country, because, you know, that's at a time where

you've got rising anti—semitism as well. >> is there a chill down the spine of the jewish community in reaction to some of the candidates that have been elected to parliament on the back of robustly pro—palestinian campaigns? >> you know, there's nothing wrong with people campaigning about all sorts of policy issues, but where you have these single issue campaigns where there's a very obvious appeal to one particular community just based on their identity, linked to what's happening in gaza, it almost feels wrong for that to be part of a general election, when really we should be talking about more broad issues that everybody would connect with. >> yeah, i mean , nigel farage >> yeah, i mean, nigel farage has said about sectarian voting and i know you might not be a supporter of his, but he's basically saying that he's worried about the idea that people are kind of establishing support on the back of, as you say , single issues. you finish say, single issues. you finish up not just with divided communities, but with large groupings of people with completely different sets of priorities. and that extends now into sectarian voting. i've never seen sectarian voting in

my lifetime, not in england anyway. so these things are all very dangerous and very bad. your reaction to that, dave? >> look, it's not the first time that people have voted based on what really matters to them. you know, lots of jewish people stop voting for labour under jeremy corbyn because of anti—semitism. but one of the dangers of this conflict is that it is going to fracture our society. it's going to divide communities, and we need to find ways to bring people together, to find common ground, not be seeing, for example, jewish and muslim communities as in conflict with each other and voting along those lines. and i think that's the danger where you get these kind of very identity based candidates who really only have one single issue, but also are only really appealing to one part of the community. >> and finally , i mean, not >> and finally, i mean, not enoughis >> and finally, i mean, not enough is being said about the fact very briefly, dave, that there are still hostages in captivity. i mean, it gets easily forgotten, doesn't it? the world moves on. the families of these people haven't moved on. >> that's exactly right. and it an end to this conflict has to

involve the hostages coming home. >> dave rich, thank you very much indeed forjoining me. here's his book again, everyday hate, which is available from all good bookshops now. thank you very much to all of my guests today. i'm going to be back next sunday at 930, but up next, it's tom harwood, who's covering for michael portillo . covering for michael portillo. weather next though, clint. it's warm and sunny . warm and sunny. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . solar sponsors of weather on. gb. news >> hello. good morning and welcome to your gb news weather update brought to you by the met office. well, as high pressure builds across the uk that means plenty of fine and dry weather to end the weekend. once any mist and fog clears across rural parts in the morning, that will leave to a bright morning and plenty of sunshine across the country for the remainder of the day. and with light winds, it is going to be feeling particularly

warm in that sunshine. turning a little bit cloudier in north western areas later. it might just be thick enough to produce the odd spot of light rain, but otherwise plenty of dry weather and feeling very warm in that sunshine , particularly in the sunshine, particularly in the south—east with highs of 26. so later on into the afternoon and through into the evening, there'll be plenty of late evening sunny spells. perfect weather. if you have any plans in the evening it may be even barbecue weather, so plenty of warm sunshine to end across the south and central areas. a build up of high cloud in western areas across northern ireland and northwestern parts of scotland. so hazy, sunny spells to end the day on sunday, but otherwise after a dry and settled day, a fairly settled evening to come through into the overnight, we'll see a little bit of a change into the northwest as that cloud continues to thicken, and as we head towards dawn that will be thick enough to produce some light rain here, but otherwise it is going to be a largely dry night once again. and when we

see those clear spells, we're likely to see the odd patch of mist and fog once again , mainly mist and fog once again, mainly in those rural spots, and taking a look at those temperatures as well. that means it's going to be a milder night compared to last night. two so to start the new working week, there'll still be plenty of fine and dry weather around across most of the country . perhaps a weather around across most of the country. perhaps a build up of high cloud, which means hazier sunny spells a different story in the northwest, though, as we continue to see that cloud thickening, producing, producing outbreaks of rain into the afternoon too. so a damp afternoon too. so a damp afternoon here, otherwise largely dry and still feeling very warm in that sunshine, particularly in the south—east where we're going to see highs of 28. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb

>> good morning, and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. you might have noticed i'm not michael portillo . i'm sitting in michael portillo. i'm sitting in today. my name is tom harwood. over the next two hours, we'll delve into concentrated, enlightened debate as we discuss politics, global affairs and the world of culture. as the tory leadership race is about to kick off, who are the runners and riders that could clinch the top spot? i'll be joined by conservative mp saqib bhatti and my political panel to discuss. with over 5000 years of history, stonehenge is one of our oldest and most celebrated sites in the uk, but our plans to save it as a world heritage site set to crumble . archaeologist mario crumble. archaeologist mario trabucco delta tory will be here to share his analysis, whilst the olympic opening ceremony, marred by rain, woke references and a lack of french culture on display , and is freedom of

display, and is freedom of speech under threat