people hurt in their lifetimes. >> well, hollis, there at the vigil in southport. well, earlier the prime minister visited southport paying tribute to the victims of the knife attack. he did face some hostile shouts from the crowd as he tried to lay a wreath on the ground there, near where it happened.the ground there, near where it happened. the prime minister says it is his mission now to crack down on knife crime. >> i am very worried about high levels of knife crime and i'm absolutely determined that my government will get to grips with it. but today is not the time for politics. today is the time for politics. today is the time to focus entirely on the families who are going through such pain and grief, and on the wider community and of course, a time to say thank you to those that responded yesterday. >> well, the prime minister's visit to southport came as merseyside police named the three little girls who've lost their lives . they are seven year their lives. they are seven year old elsie stancombe, nine year

old elsie stancombe, nine year old alice ashworth and six year old alice ashworth and six year old baby king, five other children and two adults remain in a critical condition in hospital after what was described by police as a ferocious attack. we now know the attack itself took place at a taylor swift themed dance workshop and the pop star herself has since paid tribute, saying she's still in shock at the loss of life and horrendous trauma, adding they were just little kids . well, in other news little kids. well, in other news today, an inquest has heard that the wife of the racing commentator john the wife of the racing commentatorjohn hunt, died from her stab wounds. the investigation into the triple murder found that their two daughters, hannah and louise, suffered fatal crossbow injuries. kyle clifford was arrested on suspicion of their murder, but is yet to be questioned by police because he's in hospital with self—inflicted injuries . victims self—inflicted injuries. victims of the post office scandal can now apply for compensation of £600,000 or more through a new

scheme. ministers say it aims to right the wrongs of one of britain's most worst miscarriages of justice. those who've been cleared will start receiving their letters. this week, though some may need to submit further evidence. critics are saying the letters are too late, with only ten of them being sent out so far. late, with only ten of them being sent out so far . and in being sent out so far. and in somerset, a 73 year old woman has been arrested after a suspected noxious substance was released on a busy shopping centre in bath. shoppers fell ill, with two people taken to hospital for breathing difficulties after a woman approached them with a bag. witnesses also reported seeing people being treated at the scene, with one woman being hosed down before she was taken onto an ambulance. avon and somerset police are investigating and they're asking anyone with any information to come forward . that's the latest come forward. that's the latest news from the gp newsroom. i'm polly middlehurst. i'm back at 8:00. see you then.

>> a premeditated attack on young kids. it's the summer holes. schools of course. aren't there parents who work want to put their kids somewhere? parents who at home want to put their kids somewhere. and so for these youngsters to go to a little taylor swift party, a very normal activity, somebody wilfully, deliberately went in there with a knife , stabbed there with a knife, stabbed several youngsters and some of the adults looking after them. and it's now three young girls that have died. it is almost unimaginable to think that somebody on a pre—meditated bafis somebody on a pre—meditated basis could go and do this. i think it's the most shocking thing that has happened in the country since the dunblane massacre . i can't think of massacre. i can't think of anything in the intervening years that has shocked people so much . that has led to quite much. that has led to quite a genuine outpouring of grief on a

very , very large scale. tv very, very large scale. tv presenters almost unable to hold back tears. that's how we all feel about this. there are some questions that are unanswered. a telegraph report said that the man in question had been watched by the authorities. we don't know the truth of that. what we do know is we're told it's a non terror incident. indeed last week when a lieutenant colonel in kent in full uniform was stabbed in the street, he's still alive and in a very serious condition. again, we were told it's a non terror incident. i'm just asking questions because i'm struck that every time something appalling happens, we're told it's non terror or it's mental health. it's nothing to worry our little heads about . we will, our little heads about. we will, in the fullness of time, find

out more. but given that the perpetrator is 17 years old, we may never find out who this person really is and what his motives were. i'm joined by dame andrea jenkyns, former conservative mp and matthew laza, former labour adviser angela, it's andrea. sorry, it's difficult to put into words how we all feel about this, isn't it? >> absolutely, nigel. and i think you summed it up perfectly. i mean, i'm a mum to a seven year old little boy, and seeing the pictures on the screen there of these beautiful young girls, it must be some sick individual who can go and do that . and it's inhumane . and do that. and it's inhumane. and as you said, there's so many questions that need answering . questions that need answering. and i think the truth must come out. i think the community of southport needs to know the truth. >> what i think is broader than that. matthew, i think there is a very interesting during the election campaign , whenever the election campaign, whenever the issue of law and order came up

and all the police statistics say that violent crime is falling and the world's getting better, i think we view all of that ever so slightly with a pinch of salt. what we do know is the number of young people carrying knives is going up. most knife crime is not premeditated. yeah. in the way that absolutely there is a difference here. absolutely. >> there's a difference. yeah. most most knife crime is people who are defending themselves or so—called defending themselves. a lot of gangs, gang issues around knife crime in our inner cities. i mean, i think this is i mean, it's the shocking nature of this in southport, which is a relatively quiet town, the sort of, you know, more affluent suburbs of merseyside, and i think you're absolutely right to say that it's probably shocked the nation in a way that nothing has since dunblane, because it's the premeditation that i think really goes out. nobody can comprehend. and we've seen incidents with, you know, 2 or 3 people killed by knife attackers and others before, but they tended to be more, even random

in the street. the victims were were sort of literally at random. if we think about nottingham, it was it was a guy in rampaging in the street, which is just, you know, in recent memory. this is the fact that he targeted children in a way like this. and i think that's what's really hit home, frankly, to everybody in the country. and it is a reminder to all politicians of all parties just how important issues of law and order and anti—social behaviour are and how it isn't a party political issue in the sense that we should all care about it. obviously, it's up to different parties to offer solutions. >> it's party political in a sense of what do we do? absolutely deal with it. i mean, it's interesting when keir starmer went to southport and i'm not going to show the clip, but he laid a wreath and he was heckled by a member of the pubuc heckled by a member of the public because the anger is just so visceral, >> clearly people wanted to express that anger. and i think he would understand that you know, that he's the target because he's the man ultimately in charge. and i think it's important that we do learn the lessons from this and that nobody on the on my side of politics wants to, you know, we need to find out exactly what happened, which we will do as the court process goes on. and

we need to learn lessons. we need to know, we need to know, but nothing needs to be brushed under the carpet, however uncomfortable the lessons are. >> before i go back to dame andrea, let's just see what was said in the house of commons half an hour ago with the home secretary, yvette cooper. >> what should have been a joyful start to the summer turned into an unspeakable tragedy. three young children have lost their lives. b.b. have lost their lives. bb. king, aged six, elsie stancombe, aged seven, and alice da silva aguilar , aged nine. the police aguilar, aged nine. the police have released some words that alice's family have said keep smiling and dancing like you love to do. our princess. six other children and two adults are being treated still for their injuries in hospital. >> that was the home secretary responding in the house of commons, you know , quite commons, you know, quite emotional words. yes quote from one of the parents. i think

everybody wants to know answers, though, don't they? >> you said there's so many questions there, nigel. this is we want to know. i want to know the background of these individuals. what the motivation was. and also, you know, i want to know how long they've been in the country. i mean, we've seen so much of this before in, in, i think there was a lot of speculation online last night. >> yes, about who the perpetrator was, what the background was . and i resisted background was. and i resisted saying anything. no, of course, until we found out the facts. what we do know is that the parents came from rwanda. yes. were let into the country as refugees at a time, of course, when those horrific massacres were going on between the two tribes, they settled in cardiff. the young man was born in cardiff and at the age of six moved up to the north—west. so we know that he was born in this country of , yes, of refugee parents, >> we don't know the background though , do we? but we don't know though, do we? but we don't know about him. >> exactly. and as i say,

because we can't because he can't be named because of his age, because he's 17. >> absolutely. that makes it. >> absolutely. that makes it. >> but there was this telegraph report that he had been under watched by the security service. >> yeah. and we don't know which is severely distressing. which is severely distressing. which is which is obviously worrying. and those questions will have to be answered as to, you know, how is he being watched, you know, why was he being watched? you know, because this is actually it's slightly the attacks that we i mean, dunblane for example, are attacks on children like this haven't tended to be, directly terror related in the past because it tends to be that terror targets, signs of authority, but so it's interesting to see, what it is. i mean, it may well be i'm not saying it isn't, but i'm just saying it isn't, but i'm just saying it's just it's just we so need to know the answers. well, andrew, you've been you've sat there in the commons through, you know, several of these horrific incidents. >> nothing as bad as this. how should we define terror? >> well, we should define terror by anything. attack on british civilisation and the british culture and way of life. so ideological. i think that's one way to do it. yes

>> well, i'm joined down the line by dave spencer, former detective chief inspector and somebody who is head of crime and justice at the think tank policy exchange, dave, i mean, obviously just horrific beyond horrific beyond words. we are attempting tonight on this panel to say we need some answers. are we being premature with that or is that what the nation really needs? >> well, i'm sure you're right. i think you echo what a lot of people will be feeling at the moment. and but i do know is that the police officers involved in investigating this will be conducting a meticulous investigation to try and get those answers, of course, primarily for the justice system through the criminal courts. when that inevitably gets to that point. but of course, the family, the local community and everyone will be looking for those answers. and that is what the police will be trying to do. and they will have been working

through the night last night. they'll be doing the same again today and one of my reflections, as i think about my former colleagues who will be investigating this horrific incident in southport, is that british policing comes in for a lot of criticism and certainly has done in the past. but what british policing is genuinely world class at and i mean genuinely amongst the best in the world is when these very horrific, very serious incidents happen. this is what british policing really is excellent at. and i have no doubt in my mind that while it may take time, we will get those answers in due course . coui'se. >> course. >> i don't doubt that. dave, for one moment, but i, i remember the incident that took place just over a year ago in hartlepool. there was a triple murder, there were virtually immediate restrictions put on in terms of what i could say on

this programme, what anyone could report. and then it turns out six months later, we find out six months later, we find out the identity of the perpetrator, which had that information been released at the time , would have led to time, would have led to considerable outrage in hartlepool, or perhaps even demonstrations on the streets. and i don't know the particulars of this case any more than you do . i just get of this case any more than you do. i just get a of this case any more than you do . i just get a general feeling do. i just get a general feeling that when these horrendous things happen, we're not quite being told the full truth. it's as if we're almost being protected from ourselves. >> yeah, it's certainly one of the principles that should be at the principles that should be at the heart of our justice system is open justice. you know, the pubuc is open justice. you know, the public are entitled to know what is happening in our criminal courts and, you know, you're absolutely right to raise that. i think if i can mention one of the other issues as well, you talked about, some of the and it goes to the openness issue about the sense of increasing crime and, and actually what the data

says and these sorts of things. certainly when you look at the crime data, what we see is actually knife crime over the last ten years has increased substantially . so, yeah, about substantially. so, yeah, about ten years ago there were about 26,000 offences in a year. the most recent , 26,000 offences in a year. the most recent, most 26,000 offences in a year. the most recent , most recent 26,000 offences in a year. the most recent, most recent figures are about 50,000. so over the last ten years we've seen a substantial increase in knife crime. and you know, this absolutely needs to be a priority for the new government and for the criminal justice system as a whole. >> well, unless we stop and search on the streets at random without fear of being told we're targeting various communities on the basis of their class or ethnicity will never grip this. will we? >> well, stop and search. i mean, you are absolutely right . mean, you are absolutely right. stop and search is a key part of this, and there are other tactics involved as well. but stop and search has to be, right front and centre of the solution to the knife crime epidemic that goes along with, sentencing requirements for those caught

carrying knives. it goes with the programs called for called focussed deterrence, which is about targeting those who are involved in serious criminality. and we the reality is that we now have a pretty clear idea about how to tackle knife crime. and there's all sorts of things through enforcement, through prevention , through the criminal prevention, through the criminal justice system, we now actually have a pretty clear idea how to do it. but what we need is a government and a criminal justice system who actually get on with it and who actually who actually does it. >> no, i agree, dave spencer, thank you for joining >> no, i agree, dave spencer, thank you forjoining us. now, thank you for joining us. now, it was a taylor swift party and taylor swift has put out a statement tonight on this. just saying how bitterly she regrets what's been done, and quite right too in a moment we'll come back and we will talk about an issue that is not quite as vital. but if you're one of io vital. but if you're one of 10 million pensioners living in a country where gas prices are roughly 60% higher than they were 3 or 4 years ago, you might think what rachel reeves did

yesterday was a bit of a shock

quite often on this show we say, why did someone get such a ridiculously light sentence? well, today maybe it's the other way. the hate preacher anjem choudary has been sentenced to 28 years in prison. i'm joined by chris phillips, former head of the national counter terrorism unit. chris, this is a pretty remarkable term, isn't it? what's happening here, nigel? >> it's a it's a real satisfaction to see a man like this locked away for so long. you know, to some, he's a pathetic groomer of, people to go and commit terror, but actually, he's also really, really nasty, man who, because

of his articulate ways and ability to speak to the camera, has got away with, with his actions for so long. he's he's been out. he's he's been preaching deliberately to people to go and do exactly as we've seen, yesterday in, lancashire this, this man. >> well, well hang on, chris, hang on. we don't know the direct link here yet, so. no, no, no link to this one in particular, but this is what he's been. >> this is the sort of thing that he's been preaching to his people to do. >> yeah. who makes the decision that suddenly the judiciary give out a sentence? as long as this do they act on advice from the home secretary? how does the whole process really work? >> yeah. well, i think there, there has been a push towards particularjudges there has been a push towards particular judges seeing particular judges seeing particular cases, and with advice on sentencing. and there must have been because this is an exceptional sentence, nigel, as you as you've said already.

yeah. but actually, you know, this man is dangerous. and, you know, we don't know exactly how many people have died as a result of his preachings . result of his preachings. >> no fair point. last thought on this, chris. you know, we're told very often that in our prisons we have a demoralised prisons we have a demoralised prison service, very demoralised, the old lags all retiring youngsters without much experience replacing them, that in many prisons, those that want to preach extremism, islamist ideology taking over wings of various prisons, is there a danger that chaudhry actually could convert many more people to violent causes inside prison? >> yeah, yeah. but there is some control over who he can talk to in prisons. i'd say you're absolutely right. i mean, he will preach to whoever he thinks will preach to whoever he thinks will go and do his dirty deeds for him, and of course, prison is an exceptional way of controlling those people that are, that are close to him . they

are, that are close to him. they have got now prisons which, can segregate, people like him to stop him from preaching. but but he does remain a real danger to society. >> yeah. well, chris phillips , >> yeah. well, chris phillips, friend of the program, thank you, as ever for coming on. well, i've never seen chris phillips as happy as that. i mean, he feels at last something's happening, which is, i think, good news now , i think, good news now, yesterday, you know, rachel reeves gets up the chancellor of the exchequer says the tories have lied to the nation. they've hidden the figures . and it was hidden the figures. and it was almost like a sort of old fashioned stalinist soviet show trial, the tories are the guilty men and, you know, they try to answer back, but they couldn't. but tucked in the middle of all of this and not really getting the coverage that it normally would have done, is the whole scheme for winter fuel payments. now, just to remind you, tony blair brought this in, you know, nearly 25 years ago, there were criticisms that some very rich pensioners were getting a winter fuel allowance, but what she's

basically done is said that unless you're on pension credits, you ain't going to get the winter fuel allowance. and this affects io the winter fuel allowance. and this affects 10 million people, the vast majority of whom are not rich or well off. and this comes at a time when gas prices have risen significantly. i have to say. i think it's rather a cruel thing to do, and i certainly won't be voting for it as and when i get the opportunity . there were times in opportunity. there were times in the past when maybe the argument was it wasn't necessary. it had been given as a bribe, but it's almost like it's almost like labouris almost like it's almost like labour is saying, well, we don't care about the pensioners because they're not going to for vote us anyway. and that money that could have gone to pensioners has gone for massive pubuc pensioners has gone for massive public sector pay rises, including over 22% for junior doctors. i put it to you , doctors. i put it to you, matthew laza labour supporter. this is a very cynical thing she

did. >> i wouldn't say it's cynical. i'd say it's a sad thing she's done, but she felt she had to do it because of the state of the pubuc it because of the state of the public finances. it's not something that anybody in the labour party wants to do. as you say, it's a labour policy. they were introduced by the labour party, but , were introduced by the labour party, but, you were introduced by the labour party, but , you know, were introduced by the labour party, but, you know, i wonder if you can remember who said who said about ten years ago, who's going to be brave enough to tell the wealthier pensioners that their benefits will be cut? well, it was the free enterprise group of tory mps, backed by the iea, the think tank, that that then gave us trussonomics and whoa, a second. >> yeah. yes. but gas prices then were very affordable. they are now i'm having a row with my suppuer are now i'm having a row with my supplier at the moment. i know that i might get cut off because i de—banking now cut them the bill. yeah, i can afford it. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> of course, but the bill they've sent for my gas for the last year is extortionate. >> yeah. look it is, it is. >> and i'm not a pensioner on a fixed income. >> absolutely. and it is

difficult, sadly, when you look at, when you look at the figures, fuel poverty now partly because pensioners as a whole have got richer. that's not to say they're all rich, but pensioner poverty has gone down, whereas family poverty of the family poverty of those in working age has stayed static over the past 25 years. so they i mean, sadly, the burden has to be shared. and the triple lock on pensions, the state pension itself is absolutely sacrosanct. but in order to make the books balance, i mean, this is not a cheap policy. it costs roughly the same as the whole of the spending on the royal navy. i mean, so we're looking, you know, it's 2 billion plus, in total, about one point, i think 7 billion for the for the people who are not going to get it any more . so it's serious money. more. so it's serious money. i think rachel's been brave by doing it at the beginning, clearly, if there was to be another, you know, if fuel pnces another, you know, if fuel prices were to rocket as they did in the early days of the ukraine war, i know obviously they're still much higher than they're still much higher than they were before then. clearly, they were before then. clearly, the government would look at more support. >> andrea, you know, you were recently representing a constituency with plenty of pensioners and not many rich

ones. i would guess. >> absolutely, but what i found remarkable, nigel, is that they are punishing the pensioners, but they're spending billions of pounds on the net zero climate change agenda. >> well, which affects electricity prices, absolutely doesn't affect gas prices , but doesn't affect gas prices, but it affects, mind you, mind you, the americans pay half for their gas that we do. because do you know what they do ? they frack know what they do? they frack and produce their own. >> i'm pro fracking. i've always sinwar. yes. so i just think, as you said, fuel prices are majorly high and why punish them at this time? why are they trying to push, miliband trying to push his climate change agenda so quickly? i mean, i would dump the agenda anyway for net zero and i'd frack and i'd , net zero and i'd frack and i'd, use coal, etc, but we've we need to roll back on that. but they're not going to and it just feels to me that they are punishing the pensioners. they're punishing those who want

to work hard. and look, they're letting people out of prisons, that's probably why, chowdhury's got a long sentence. because in these thousands of people out. >> well, it's not all bad then, is it? yeah >> rafe space, the spaces, but also having an amnesty on illegals as well, which they mentioned during the election. >> which which it looks like i mean, matthew, and you know, it is an interesting point. she talked about a black hole, a 20 billion black jackets. i watched it all and labour were cheering and the tories were indignant and the tories were indignant and i was just laughing at the whole thing. but there's a real big black hole coming and it's this the last auction for offshore wind in the north sea didn't attract a single bidder. absolutely not a single bidder. so, mike, and i'm not saying you can answer this, but if ed miliband has got all these companies that are going to build vast arrays of the north

sea, i wonder what the price is going to be. and i wonder what that means, because all through the election, we were told that renewable energy would give us cheaper bills. it won't, will it? well, it potentially can, but it's a big journey. >> it's a big journey to get there. well, that's the point. i mean, one thing he has done is he's not. many people notice this. he's involved the crown estate now, which actually owns the, you know, some of the seabed, but he actually wants to get the crown estate in developing the, the fields themselves, because obviously, as you say in the last auction, there were there were scarcity of bids to, to never mind net zero. it was zero bids to get us to net zero. and that is the problem from i mean, i used to work for ed miliband. that is the problem. he is absolutely passionate and committed to this, but it has to be done in a way that delivers, that delivers for people who are worrying about their energy bills. and the problem is the lead time on thatis the problem is the lead time on that is huge, which is why that labouris that is huge, which is why that labour is probably the most populist policy of the election. was it scrapped the tory policy of making you get rid of your boiler, so labour does have a pledge that it won't, it won't

make force you to get rid of your gas boiler. >> oh, look, you know, boris johnson went down this route in a very, very big way. and you could argue that much of what miliband is saying is not that different to boris johnson. but the truth is, decarbonising the grid by 20 by 2030 would cost far more for pensioners than losing their winter fuel. well i mean, there are i mean, you know, the truth of the matter is, is if you listen to the people at the sharp end, both the companies themselves, but also the workers via their trade unions, the gmb union and unite the union are both absolutely clear that it's physically impossible to do that, partly because there aren't enough cables in the whole world to do it. >> so i think we've got to see a dash of common sense and the potential conflict between miliband and the green lobby and other voices in the government. so that is watch out for that. in the autumn, i say final thought on this. >> do you think the conservatives in opposition will oppose the net zero policies of the labour party or support them? >> i mean, given the makeup of the, what's left of the party, they'll probably support it. but i want them to oppose it. >> okay. well, one little observation i've got from just a few weeks in that place is how

much the front benches agree on most things, including the next topic. we're going to debate angela rayner talking about housing targets today. she wanted to sound radical and bold, and yet we re were exactly the housing targets announced by boris johnson five

so it was angela rayner's turn today to say the labour party , today to say the labour party, the labour government, will build 1.5 million houses over the course of the next five years. it's exactly the same pledge that boris johnson made after he won the 2019 election. do you know what is not being debated by either frontbench? and it's this the reason we have to build so many houses is because, net migration is running at levels where we have to build a new dwelling, one new dwelling every two minutes just to cope with what's coming into the country, let alone the massive backlogs that we have, genuine backlogs that we have.

i'm thinking particularly social housing or in many parts of the country, the question of affordability, of housing. it's affordability, of housing. it's a simple matter of demand supply. the population has risen by 10 million since mr blair came to power, and 85% of that is down to immigration. no wonder we have a problem. your side never talk about this, >> i did, i mean, you did. >> i did, i mean, you did. >> you're a rebel. >> you're a rebel. >> one of my last debates in parliament, westminster hall debate, which i call for, was a true cost of illegal migration. and we included housing with this. i mean, as an mp, you'll see it as well, nigel, we see the impact on our streets, on on all of our services, on the nhs, on dentistry and the difference in the policy is who are these houses going to go to? that's what i question. is it going to go to the illegal migrants? is it going to go to those prisoners released? because it seems to me the labour party are the party of those who come from other countries and those who

are on benefits. >> well, rayner has talked, hasn't she, about a large amount of social housing being built. she's talked about the use of brownfield sites being the absolute default, being yes to all of that equally, we're going to need some new towns, aren't we? >> yeah. so i mean there is an emphasis on new towns. and then today, of course, we've seen the emphasis on the green belt, which is the grotty bits of the green belt, basically, which councils are going to have to go and, and declare which bits that they think are the great bad. and if they don't build, the builders are going to be able to challenge them and say, we think this is great, but i'm going to be able to take that to the government and say, this council is getting in the way now, the big the big clash, we're going to see down the line. it all sounds very good today, but from a political point of view, we now have a labour mps in some very beautiful parts of the country that we never imagined we were going to have labour mps with who, absolutely who's, who's. and not only that, but labour mps elected on the back of kind of middle class, >> can i come in on this? i'm actually going to be nimby ing away. >> i mean, i was pps to jenrick

when he was housing minister, actually, housing secretary and that's what i found. we had people like claire coutinho who had something like 97% green belt, who was had so much nimbyism. and i'd be saying, look, we need to build houses. i've got 1% green belt in my area. we need to be protecting where we've got 1% green belt now. but the issue where i've got nigel is the fact that the doubling, the cost to apply for planning permission for the regular household and again, like the doing with private schools, the dumbing down on those who are doing the right thing. >> one of the ironies will be for labour, one of the problems that the conservatives came up against, and i spoke to developers on this is a whole raft of eu environmental law, particularly nutrient nutrient neutrality . and at one point neutrality. and at one point gove was very keen to get rid of all of this stuff. but they never did. how can a party committed to staying close to the eu rulebook? how will it overcome the court case? well it's also it's a part of the environmental lobby as well , environmental lobby as well, actually, not just the not just the, law book. >> and look, there are going to

be at the moment, obviously the government's in its honeymoon period. these competing demands are not clashing against each other, but they are going to clash against like the like a dodgem cars on speed, because you are clearly going to have an issue about whether you water down environmental regulations, because we also have the issue about water supply generally. there's the issue about you're not able to build houses in large parts of the country because we haven't built enough reservoirs now, labour's committed to big infrastructure projects, although no money for that. this week, we're told. and yet, of course, the lead time for a reservoir is decades, not years . so, so you know what? years. so, so you know what? what do you do there? and i think on migration, i think that, you know, you know, whatever you come from the political spectrum, you have to acknowledge. do you accept my point? yeah. look anybody who can do maths has to acknowledge that if you have if you have a population that is continually growing and a housing and you know, the demand for housing will continually grow as well, and you're going to have problems of allocation, but you're also going to have that. so i hope that the government will take not just illegal but

legal migration seriously. we have seen the an emphasis on reskilling, british workers over the last couple of weeks. it's a big it's a big. well we hear this talk. >> let's see what it comes exactly. now we're going to move on, but we're going to stick with the eu rules. why what the farage moment is the eu select committee, which has been around since 1984, which was in many ways bill cash's plaything. yes, but did serve some purpose. it was designed that when eu law came to britain, they would scrutinise it before, inevitably, it went through. but that select committee is being abolished. and that leads many to think , well, this is all part to think, well, this is all part of the labour plan to cosy up ever closer and perhaps to rejoin a series of eu institutions without actually rejoining the european union itself. i said in my maiden speech this is a remainer parliament. my guess is between 85 and 90% of mps voted remain. at least half the parliament would rejoin the european union

tomorrow. well, who better to speak to about the eu scrutiny committee and what's happening than dame andrea jenkins, who was a member of it? >> i was on it twice, nigel, i had to come off it when i was a government whip, and then i went back on it afterwards, but if i can just pull up on your first point first, you correct there like the guy who took over from me in, in the morley area, he voted remain. he stood in harrogate previously and he wanted a second referendum. it is made up of remainers and the lib dems, the 71 lib dems. >> there's greens, there's snp , >> there's greens, there's snp, it's a very remainer the tories only 20% of the house. >> and then you obviously some voted remain. >> yeah, but half of them. exactly. that's what i'm saying. >> yeah yeah yeah i mean i think 90 not 80. >> the committee did amazing work under sir bill. we was recently were been looking at gibraltar to make sure they retain, you know, british sovereignty. and we don't see the eu coming in through the back door like we've seen in northern ireland, and also we've been scrutinising the ministers not to have an eu army, but i

think anything's on the table under labour and i think it's so undemocratic for a, you know, great democracy like ours to remove that scrutiny element. i mean, i was also on the brexit committee where we'd be scrutinising the brexit deals pnor scrutinising the brexit deals prior to me going on to this. and it's right, you know, parliamentarians are elected to scrutinise. >> i'm matthew laza matthew laza your mates. i am a remainer myself. i know, i know, you are your mates are about to wilfully. >> yes betray the spirit of the greatest democratic exercise in the history of our nation . the history of our nation. >> well, no, i don't think they are, because i think i mean, people like me may want an ever closer relationship with the eu, but the chances of us rejoining are a big fat zero, and the chances of anything that resembles rejoining, they're going to do it through the back job, though, isn't it? >> it's going to be brexit in, i mean frankly, the need to vote. >> you can just do mob angela's mob did precious little to take us away from the rule book, which makes it much easier for

you guys. but also this committee, this committee specifically was was there to examine the swathes of eu legislation that that came through the eu that didn't have to go through the floor of the commons, and it was a committee to examine, examine those. >> and now we're not in the eu. it is a superfluous committee. if there was to be a change relationship, there would have to be a brexit style committee set up. >> final word is going to go to us, >> thank you, thank you. nigel, first of all, kemi, she was one of the last people that we interviewed on the committee. and i had a go at her because she didn't rip up all these thousands of eu laws. what was on the statute, and we wouldn't have handed that to labour to make it easy for them. so that's one point that i'm not happy with. one of our future potential leadership candidates, and also secondly, i just think the fact that they are stopping this, you do not need a second referendum. they can do, statutory instruments, they can have reverse brexit through the rejoin scientific communities. >> we can rejoin all sorts. >> we can rejoin all sorts.

>> we can we should work together where it makes sense to work together. oh, i know that argument all too well. it looks so much more different. >> andrew jenkins, i want to thank matthew laza. thank you for being my panel this evening and especially for the first segment of the show, very difficult subject, very emotional subject to debate in a rational and clear way. and i hope you at home think we did our best with that. now, a change of gear after the break. gb news is the home of free speech. therefore we are going to have a just stop oil spokesman coming on to debate with me as they want to stop you going on your summer holidays. and i will disagree with ben lawson, i'm sure. but you know what? being the channel, we are, he will have every right to speak his mind. and that's just as it should be in a free, open

they're at it again. yes they never get. they never go away. do they? just stop oil? yesterday at gatwick, try to impede people as they went towards getting their aeroplanes. and of course it's the school halls and people are to off spain and all around the world, disneyland or wherever it may be. and today at heathrow, similar . and may be. and today at heathrow, similar. and a couple of people were arrested. i'm joined by ben lawson, a just stop oil spokesman. >> well, there are a lot of hard working families. >> you know, and these days both mum and dad work and much as holidaying in our country is beautiful and wonderful, it very often lashes with rain and they want to go to spain for a couple of weeks and you want to stop them doing that . why? them doing that. why? >> well, i mean, have you seen the news? the spanish one that stopped them doing that as well? >> well, that's very marginal around the edges in barcelona, but but in general terms, in general terms, you know, there are tens of millions of flights

every year from this country and it's people going for weekend breaks or summer hols, and you want to stop them doing that. >> just stop oil has always been very clear. we're not blocking airports to stop flying, just like we weren't blocking the m25 to stop people driving. >> well you did, we did these blockading actions, but that's to send a message to our government. >> because when you're rich in this country, you can buy political influence. you can lobby jacob, jacob knows all about that. you can lobby and you can buy influence. when you're an ordinary person in this country, you really don't have that much power. so just stop oil is about ordinary people coming together, using their bodies to dominate the news cycle and get this issue to the top of the news cycle, where it needs to be. >> but isn't there something? so basically, you're saying that a form of domestic soft terrorism is better. >> just hear me. no, no, no, i'm sorry, i'm sorry i've heard you through, but do you use a word? >> you haven't heard me through to you? >> there is something here. terrorism. >> there is something here

called terrorism. >> nigel, do you accept the democrats are serious? >> do you accept the democratic process? >> we live in a liberal democracy, and that's a good thing. >> do you accept the democratic protests as a necessary part? if you can't win? >> but, nigel. no, we're not carrying. >> we're not carrying on. >> we're not carrying on. >> if you can't win through the ballot box, you really just looked at me and said, terrorism. what are you taking the mickey? well well, do you accept lockerbie? >> do you accept the rule of law 9/11? n0, >> do you accept the rule of law 9/11? no, i said terrorism. i said this was orange paint in a departure lounge. >> i said, soft terrorism. and the reason the hell is soft terrorism. >> explain that to me. >> explain that to me. >> do you accept the democratic result of elections in this country? >> absolutely, yes. >> absolutely, yes. >> do you accept the rule of law? yes. so why are you going outside of that? to try and get change by impeding and stopping people going about their lawful legal activities. that is a form. and if the words not terrorism, it's obstructionism. but you are behaving in an anti democratic manner . democratic manner. >> but i'm glad to hear i'm glad to hear you've taken back the word terrorism because that's ridiculous. the second thing is i think it's soft terrorism. >> but that's by the by. but but but what the hell is we have

terrorism. >> well it is saying we are above the law. >> you are saying we are above the law. we are not saying the law above the law. we're above the democratic process. and we will stop you going about your free will to go on holiday, to drive around the m25 and go to a parent's funeral or whatever it may be. how do you i mean, number one, number one, i think you're putting yourselves above the law. no, no. >> so you've made this point a number of times. now just stop oil acts in an illegal manner. just stop oil does break the law in a sense. we use a tried and tested form of civil disobedience. so this is being used in liberal democracies. it's not counter to liberal democracies. it's very much a part to be able to say, i dissent, i think what the government, although it's a legitimate government, is doing, is wrong. what the government is doing is leading to suffering for billions of people. >> i don't mind you protesting well, i don't no no no no no, i don't mind you protesting. i don't mind you protesting. i don't mind you standing in parliament square and screaming and shouting or doing whatever you want to do.

>> but when we did that, we got arrested. >> but i object to you trying to stop families going on their summer holiday. >> listen, just stop oil is willing to do whatever it non—violently takes because right now, the world is dangerously hot. and this government has, according to, you know, no, sorry. according to 98% of scientists. nigel, if you look outside the windows, we're in the gb news bunker right now. if you have a window and you look out of it, you can see what's happening around the world. it's not normal. and it's it makes sense that people are freaked out. >> and what percentage of global carbon emissions comes from the uk? >> a huge amount is financed by the city of london, which this government percentage of global c02 government percentage of global co2 comes from the uk, and historically we're one of the biggest emitters of all time. no, that's why no we're not. >> china has emitted more co2 in the last ten years than we have since the dawn of time. >> i said. one of the biggest emitters of all time historically. and that's why this government has a special responsibility because of our place in we have carbon emissions. hang on. let me finish by 50%. let me finish. let me finish. this government has a historic responsibility to sign a fossil fuel treaty, a fossil fuel treaty with governments across the to world

say we need to phase out this stuff, just like we did with nuclear warheads. >> but it's not going to happen. it's not going to happen. what should we do? everybody accepts. >> should we just let the wildfires take us? should we just sink under the sea levels? >> we can encourage india, we can encourage china. we can encourage them to burn less coal. >> let's do it then. and it has to start at home. it has to start at home. otherwise they're just going to call this this yeah >> this year the world's going to burn 4 billion tons of coal. it's a number. so mind blowing. we can't even get our minds around it. aren't we better. aren't we better to just accept that whilst we can encourage other people to do it, we should not de—industrialize we should not de—industrialize we should not make people poorer and we should not stop them going on holidays. >> who's talking about the deindustrialisation? we green energy carbon emissions cleaner. it's cheaper and it's clearly better for communities. what do you mean it doesn't work? >> it's intermittent. >> it's intermittent. >> it's intermittent. >> i think it's our brain is intermittently working. >> when the wind doesn't blow, these things produce nothing.

>> okay, well, then that's why we've figured out to how balance an electricity grid a long time ago. your arguments are totally outdated, and they're not shared by. we will be using oil and gas. >> we will be using oil and gas in 2050. even if we go headlong for net zero. and everyone accepts that apart from just stop oil ben , it's good to have stop oil ben, it's good to have you on the debate. >> go to just stop oil .org. sign up now. >> jacob. there we are. you are one of the rich, influential people in this country. according to ben lawson. >> well, i'm not influential anymore because i'm no longer a member of parliament. so, you know, my influence is gone. >> what are you debating tonight? >> oh, well, i've got liz truss on to talk about this fascinating report from the bank of england, where the bank of england says it was the bank of england says it was the bank of england that damaged the economy around the time of liz truss's mini—budget, not liz, that it was their regulatory failure, their administrative incompetence and what bail is still there because you can't bail him out, whereas you can bail him out, whereas you can bail out the government in charge. >> yeah. no, no, no. fascinating debate. well before all of that, let's see how warm the weather is going to be tomorrow with alex burkill . alex burkill. >> it looks like things are

heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news >> good evening. here's your latest gb news, weather forecast from the met office, the high temperatures, the high humidity will continue across southern parts through the next few days and that brings the risk of some thunderstorms. high pressure is generally in control, leading to a lot of fine and settled weather, but there is a weak front across northern parts of scotland and here it is a bit fresher than elsewhere. but as we go through the night, do watch out for some hefty showers pushing into southern parts of england. some of these could have the odd bit of thunder mixed in as well, and there may be a few pockets of mist and fog. but across southern parts it's really going to be a warm and sticky night. temperatures really holding up much fresher story further north. in fact, in some of the rural spots, the sheltered glens of scotland, we could fall as low as 4 or 5 celsius. so a bit of a fresher , celsius. so a bit of a fresher, chilly start across scotland first thing. and that front i

mentioned earlier, bringing some outbreaks of rain to the northern isles. otherwise it's a dry, bright and sunny story for many. a bit more cloud, perhaps across parts of northern ireland and some parts of northern england. a bit of a grey start here, but elsewhere across much of england and wales, any mist and fog patches that do develop overnight will quickly be burnt away by the sun, and there will be plenty of sunshine and plenty of blue skies. that being said, we are expecting a few more showers to develop as we go into the afternoon, particularly across southern southeastern parts, and these showers could be fairly intense. some heavy downpours, some frequent lightning, some thunder and hail all could lead to some issues. the temperatures are still going to be on the high side, just about getting into the low 30s across the south. fresher than this though further north similar to today. high teens, low 20s, so feeling warm enough in any sunshine into thursday and the heavy thunderstorms are going to be a bit more widespread across much of england and wales, there is the risk of some thundery downpours. meanwhile, across scotland and northern ireland, a few showers are possible and it is going to

be a little bit cloudy at times. friday is looking like it will be a bit drier for many before something fresher and wetter by the weekend. >> by by a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news

>> well . >> well. >> well. >> hello. good evening. it's me jacob rees—mogg on state of the nafion jacob rees—mogg on state of the nation tonight. the former prime minister liz truss will be joining me live in the studio in a moment as she unleashes a forensic deconstruction of the chancellor's new plans to hand power to the blob who controls britain . is power to the blob who controls britain. is it the power to the blob who controls britain . is it the politicians britain. is it the politicians who you vote for, or is it unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats who can't be removed ? bureaucrats who can't be removed? we will be examining carefully with the former prime minister. meanwhile, junior doctors have been granted an inflation busting pay rise, while pensioners have had their winter fuel payments scrapped. plus we

always set the record straight. here @gbnews, we reported that a tory mp was considering defecting to reform. we were wrong and hold our hands up for it. martin vickers will join me in a moment. state of the nation starts now. i'll also be joined by my particularly pugnacious panel, former editor of the sun, kelvin mackenzie, and the pr consultant and former labour aide stella santiago. as ever, let me know your views. mail margaret gb news. com but now it's your favourite part of the day. the news bulletin with polly middlehurst. >> jacob, thank you and good evening to you. well, the top story from the gb newsroom tonight is that hundreds of people have gathered for a vigil to remember the victims of the knife attack in southport. our reporter, will hollis was there . reporter, will hollis was there. >> a lot of people will be to

next strangers right now, but they're coming together in shock in grief, in pain , but united in in grief, in pain, but united in the feeling that this is not what people want to see in their communities. happening to the most vulnerable of people . the most vulnerable of people. the pain here is so much, and people are hurting in a way that few people hurt in their lifetimes . people hurt in their lifetimes. >> will hollis well, earlier the prime minister paid tribute to the victims of the knife attack. but he was faced with hostile shouts from the crowd as he laid down a wreath and stood in silence. some people shouting, how many more? the prime minister says it is now his mission to crack down on knife crime . well, his visit came as crime. well, his visit came as police named the three little girls who've lost their lives in that stabbing attack. they are seven year old elsie stancombe, nine year old alice aguhar and

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