£3 billion worth of savings. get in touch with your thoughts on tonight's topics by visiting gbnews.com forward slash your say but first, here's the news with sophia wenzler. >> chris thank you. good evening. i'm sophia wenzler in the gb newsroom . the prime the gb newsroom. the prime minister is warning those inciting violence across england could face prison time following a weekend of unrest during this morning's emergency cobra meeting, sir keir starmer has promised additional police resources are being deployed nationwide in relation to the police. >> i am absolutely clear that we will have the officers we need where we need them to deal with this disorder and that is why the standing army has been set up. specialist officers ready to be deployed to support communities on the question of prisons. firstly, we're

monitoring it on a daily basis. i'm appalled that we've been put in this position by the previous government. that is even a discussion. it's even a question that you have to ask me. but we will make this work and ensure that we've got the places that are needed to bring the perpetrators swiftly to justice. >> it comes as the national police chiefs council says so far, 378 arrests have been made over the past week. in relation to the unrest. a wave of people have now appeared in court charged over the ongoing riots. meanwhile, merseyside police have said that one child remains in hospital a week on from the stabbing attack in southport, which sparked the riots in birmingham . tensions are high birmingham. tensions are high tonight where it appears some crowds of muslim men are gathering in response to the ongoing unrest. in footage circulating on social media, hundreds of men can be seen taking to the streets . it's taking to the streets. it's understood the muslim community of bordesley green in birmingham

have gathered to protect their local mosque and police commissioner sir mark rowley has apologised after he knocked a news journalist microphone out of his hand. this morning. in a statement, he said this is a distraction from the critical events we're dealing with. he also said it was agreed with the prime minister that he would provide an update afterwards, and it was not my place to speak publicly. in an effort to remove the microphone out of my path, i'm sorry that i knocked it to the floor. that was not my intention. meanwhile several countries have issued safety warnings to their citizens in the uk due to the riots. nigeria malaysia and australia have sent out alerts telling people living or visiting the uk to stay away from demonstrations. and in the us, vice president kamala harris is expected to announce her running mate later after interviewing three top candidates. her shortlist of all white men have a record of winning over rural, white or

independent voters. the decision will be pivotal as harris prepares to challenge donald trump in the upcoming election. following president biden's exit from the race, the candidates will be informed tonight or tuesday morning whether they've been picked. those are the latest gb news headlines. for now, i'm sophia wenzler more in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . gbnews.com forward slash alerts. >> now sir keir starmer convened an emergency cobra meeting today following a weekend of violent disturbances across england . it disturbances across england. it was the first cobra meeting to be held since the killings of those young children in southport. speaking after the meeting, the prime minister, sir keir starmer, pledged a standing army of specialist officers to

restore order on our streets. he pledged that all those involved will feel the full force of the law, and strongly rejected accusations of two tier policing. he also called for names of rioters to be made pubuc names of rioters to be made public as soon as possible. joining me now to discuss this is the former british army commander, colonel richard kemp, who was in the past chaired cobra meetings. richard, welcome to gbbn tonight. where are you , to gbbn tonight. where are you, by the way.7 >> by the way? >> i'm in tel aviv, in israel, at the moment, waiting for iran's much threatened attack. >> okay. it's pretty tricky here in the uk with these dreadful scenes over the weekend, but you've chaired cobra meetings, haven't you? what's it like? and what is cobra ? what is cobra? >> well, cobra is, it probably sounds a bit more dramatic than it actually is. it's a, a basically a crisis management committee that brings across all the elements of government, the

home office, the defence ministry, the foreign office, other, other areas of government that are relevant, the police and the intelligence services to consider either intelligence about a potential crisis or in this case, about a crisis that is unfolding. so it's essentially going to be coordinating the government's activities in response and studying and considering the intelligence that's available from probably mainly from the police and maybe mi5 in this case, on future plans that protesters might have to see how best to deploy resources against them. >> and is the point that it's a secure room with screens all around it, allowing, secure room with screens all around it, allowing , people around it, allowing, people maybe the security services , maybe the security services, police to show ministers what they're looking at to inform their decision making. >> exactly that. and there's, you know, they will have probably during the cobra meeting, they may well have had chief constables or other senior people from the regions that are

being affected. piped in by the same kind of technology as we're using now. and they have back offices with staff outside the main cobra meeting room to keep the cobra members informed about developments . developments. >> but given that, do you find it surprising given the scale of violence that this first cobra meeting after the southport killings was not convened until today? >> well , today? >> well, i'm not quite sure why it wasn't convened. i think maybe the indications of wider scale unrest that might have that, and in fact turned out have affected many parts of the country. i would have thought maybe a meeting would have been convened before that. but of course, it may be that the government wanted to not, appear to be overly dramatic dramatising events which they think may have, led to, to , to, think may have, led to, to, to, you know, to, to spreading of greater violence. but i think that's, that's one possibility.

but i really i don't really understand why it was delayed . understand why it was delayed. >> there's no suggestion yet that the army will be called in to ensure peace on the streets . to ensure peace on the streets. but sir keir starmer is using military language, calling it a standing army of specialist officers. is that appropriate? >> it's a bit strange in my view. i think he's talking about, i presume he's talking about, i presume he's talking about, police forces, which and again, i think i think this is intended to show some kind of strength from the government because these procedures of deploying specialist officers wherever and whenever they're needed is, is routine. it's happenedin needed is, is routine. it's happened in many different situations, whether it's violent situations, whether it's violent situations, or, you know , situations, or, you know, terrorist attacks or whatever. this is common, activity, nothing particularly new as far as i can see about it. sounds good. sounds interesting , but i good. sounds interesting, but i don't think it is particularly, but the army of course, will be ready to help. and when a

situation like this begins to develop, the army invariably will start making preparations to deploy military forces in support of the police if they're asked for. as far as i know, they haven't been asked for yet. but if they are, you know, armed forces will be ready to respond in whatever way as needed. >> now, they haven't been asked yet. there was some confusion because a general tony radakin , because a general tony radakin, was seen at the top. one of the top army army chiefs was seen in number 10 today. around the time of this meeting. but that was nothing to do with this cobra meeting . it's likely if the army meeting. it's likely if the army is deployed in some way, that they're kept out away from any, any role which would see them impacting or coming across members of the public. that's normally the way, isn't it ? normally the way, isn't it? >> whenever possible, the police and the other authorities try to keep the army as far in the background as possible, for obvious reasons. and so it may for be example, if police manpower gets stretched, the armed force will be used in sort of second line areas to relieve

officers to go forward and actually deal directly with the rioting. but of course, we have seen the armed forces involved in rioting. i myself have been involved in riot control in the uk, in northern ireland specifically, now this is in northern ireland and this isn't the same situation, but the armed forces do have significant influence and they get trained influence and they get trained in riot control and dealing with angry mobs, whether it's in this country or in other places, like in the balkans and in iraq at times, what have you made? >> just finally, finally, richard, of the of the policing. i mean , do you think they've i mean, do you think they've they've they when to draw the baton is always a big moment in policing and when to don riot gean policing and when to don riot gear. obviously escalates it further. is it being done the right way as far as you can make out from your standpoint, >> it's hard to know unless you're actually there just by seeing sort of, tv footage , etc. seeing sort of, tv footage, etc. it's not very easy to, to assess that, but the police will always try as the armed forces do in

similar situations, try to maintain as low a profile as possible in terms of, as you mentioned, things like riot gean mentioned, things like riot gear, which sometimes is deemed to provoke. but of course, in this kind of situation, the police almost can never get it right. they're either accused of being too heavy handed or being too, soft on on the rioters. so it's a very difficult balance. but the senior police officers have to make and sometimes they of course, sometimes they do get it wrong . it wrong. >> well, colonel richard kemp, thank you for joining >> well, colonel richard kemp, thank you forjoining us >> well, colonel richard kemp, thank you for joining us today from israel. we do appreciate it. now, today, the prime minister has rejected calls for mps to return to westminster from their summer holidays to debate the riots and the police response. this is despite mps from across the political spectrum demanding the recall of parliament. one of those mps doing just that is a deputy leader of reform uk richard tice, and he joins me now in the studio. richard why why do you need to have mps back to just

talk about stuff, when in fact all the police have all the powers they need to try and enforce calm on the streets? >> we're not asking for a recall of parliament in order to stop the riots, but what we're actually saying is, in the same way that david cameron recalled parliament back in 2011 and priti patel's called for it , priti patel's called for it, where she's saying, we've got to have a proper debate about what's gone wrong, why, and actually how do we how do we move forwards and have a grown up recognition that whilst violence is completely condemned from all sides, without any hesitation whatsoever , rioting hesitation whatsoever, rioting and all of it, it's got to stop. >> but actually there are a lot of very decent , concerned of very decent, concerned british citizens about mass immigration. the impact on our society , and they don't society, and they don't appreciate a prime minister. last week who made the situation far worse himself by saying that anybody who was protesting was automatically a far right thug .

automatically a far right thug. that was the implication of what he did. it was appalling, and it's made the situation much worse. we've got to have a sensible day, get people back in the chamber, explain what the government thinks has happened and what they think they're going to do about it in order to to, reassure people that the concerns about the impact on on people's wages, on the quality of life, the pressure on housing, on public services is now so great that people have actually wanted to people wanted to. a lot of people wanted to protest peacefully and a bunch of absolute idiots have taken it to a terrible place . so we've to a terrible place. so we've got to look forwards and i think the right way to do that, to recognise how concerned the government is that the government is that the government should say we hear people absolutely no one's condoning any violences, violence whatsoever . but we do violence whatsoever. but we do understand that there is genuine anxiety over that and what they

don't want to do, richard, is to legitimise the violence we've seen on the streets. >> that's what number 10 says. >> that's what number 10 says. >> and that's a nonsense. it's actually the opposite. what they're doing all this great language, a standing army of specialist officers. yes, prime minister it's called the riot police, right? it's normal. police officers who trained in riot. we've had that as colonel kemp said, he's just coming up with this sort of spin words to sound as though he's doing something. that's all he ever does. it's like he sort of border this new border force command. it'sjust border this new border force command. it's just relabelled. they don't want to inflame things. >> to what extent? >> to what extent? >> he inflamed it last week with a disgraceful denigration of anybody who's concerned about immigration, saying you're far right without actually saying there are also, you know, frankly, there's some people on the other side of this debate. we're seeing some extraordinary , we're seeing some extraordinary, shocking footage of large groups of people from from an ethnic minority, primarily muslims , minority, primarily muslims, going around with masks, with hoodsin going around with masks, with hoods in a very intimidating way, shouting slogans allahu akhban way, shouting slogans allahu akhbar. and frankly, that's not helpful either. but no mention

of that by the prime minister. no mention of that by any of the cabinet. and i just think that is people recognise it. people are not stupid. we know what's going on and that is frankly thatis going on and that is frankly that is two tier. politicians and it is two tier policing. if you look back at what happened in leeds and the harehills riots of a couple of weeks ago , the of a couple of weeks ago, the police, they acted in a completely different way. the quantity of arrests we've only just heard on friday. there are about 27 arrests out of 2000 people or so who are on those riots where police cars and buses were burnt and they were horrific scenes and all all people want actually is one tier policing in a fair, firm and equal way. i don't think that's are you far right? >> richard tice. >> richard tice. >> don't be ridiculous. i think you're expressing concerns. >> are you a far right politician? >> i'm concerned, along with tens of millions of other british people. that's the reality. and we abhor any form

of violence, whether it's far left near left, near right. >> i ask you about nigel farage, who isn't here on this show. he said, but you're you're the party's deputy leader. he said that he wondered whether the truth was being withheld from us after those killings a week ago. >> he wanted he wanted to what extent did that fuel the trouble on the streets? but but the government have, you know, they always want to say it may have inched always want to say it may have incited things. nonsense. what he was doing, quite rightly, the role of politicians is to ask questions and sometimes difficult, but in a responsible way, surely. which is exactly what he did. he said. i don't know the answer, but we need to ask the question. i think it's perfectly reasonable when horrific attacks, for example, the uniform soldier who was nearly murdered the other day within a very short period of time. it's not terror related, it's mental health. well okay, this seems to be always the mantra. it's the standard line that comes out. >> if it's true, why not? because you should say that i think it's legitimate to ask the

question , because exactly the question, because exactly the same with the horrific murder of three children. >> it's not terror related , it's >> it's not terror related, it's mental health. it's the standard line, and it's becoming so standard and it's so quick to come out . no, the responsible come out. no, the responsible thing is say, okay, well are we really sure about that? is that genuinely the case? that's what we have to ask. >> difficult questions go down towards conspiracy theories. that's the risk you take with these remarks. >> you're actually asking the questions that millions of people in the country want asked and answered. so is the answer to be faster then to the government's? are the government to answer those questions instead , to instead to smear, instead, to instead to smear, label and suppress debate that makes you even more anxious? >> is the answer then for the for authorities to name the individuals more quickly and give more information out to stop the. i think the conspiracy theories, i think they are winning online, >> you know , we should we should >> you know, we should we should hear faster whether or not people have been arrested and charged. and i think we have got to look at the quality of information that's put out

quickly to reassure people. >> richard tice, the deputy leader of reform uk , thank you leader of reform uk, thank you for joining us tonight on gbn tonight. now next up, in a sign of how serious this situation is, three countries have warned their citizens about travelling within the within the uk

welcome back to gbn tonight with me christopher hope. now, in a sign of how these protests are being viewed abroad , malaysia, being viewed abroad, malaysia, nigeria and indonesia have warned their citizens about travelling in the uk in a similar way that our foreign office issues warning to britons travelling to war torn parts of the world. joining me now is mark logan, a former tory mp for bolton north northeast who is now a labour member. and on my panel now a labour member. and on my panel, gb news senior political

commentator nigel nelson, an associate editor at the daily telegraph, moutaz ahmed , to you, telegraph, moutaz ahmed, to you, if i may, mark, is that even right that other countries are worried about their citizens coming here or moving around the country? >> well, i think it's not a good sign. obviously it's not good for brand britain, for uk plc. and you know, my own thoughts on all this is obviously we have to be calling for calm immediately. i think the prime minister has done the right thing by calling out the thuggery that's been happening across the uk, but we really need to get back to a peaceful society right across the board. >> we all hope for that. mark. >> we all hope for that. mark. >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> how's bolton? has that been affected by the troubles? well, yeah. >> so yesterday i was watching very closely. obviously there was lots of tick tock live streams were happening, what i should say is, you know, bolton's time i was a member of parliament and a very ethnically diverse constituency indeed. town is a place of relative peace that people have been able to get on from different religious backgrounds. yesterday, some of the scenes

that i saw teetered on the brink a little bit. now, we were fortunate in that we didn't have significant rioting or violence actually happening, but at points, i was a little bit concerned when i was watching some of the imagery. and i think the police locally in bolton, gmp, did a fantastic job. >> did they then are you worried about two tier policing? richard tice earlier on? he is worried about two tier? >> no, i don't think so. i watched, i'd say about three hours live tiktok streaming and it was coming from the side which was, you know, referred to as the right wing or far right. and the other side was the counter—protest, as they referred to. and i do think that the police were able to keep it there in the centre of bolton. they were able to keep the peace really well. and what's a very difficult circumstance, and i was listening to your bulletin earlier on, was talking about how, you know, you're damned if you do it, you're damned if you don't. it's very difficult for the police. and i think we have to get behind our police at this really sensitive time. >> the words far right used there, is that the right way to describe people? i mean, sir

keir starmer has doubled down on that today, hasn't he, by saying that today, hasn't he, by saying that there's people who violently target those on the bafis violently target those on the basis of the colour of their skin or their faith? >> well, i think actually, chris, is that what we really need to be looking at here is being opposed to any violence whatsoever. and that doesn't matter. we all are. that doesn't matter. we all are. that doesn't matter about the pigmentation of your skin. it doesn't matter about what colour, what creed that you come from. i think we have to have obviously a one size fits all when it comes to stamping down on violence. >> is that right though? i mean, of course we want to crack down on violence. no, no question. but by saying that attacking people who are concerned about these areas is far right, undermines that message and concerns people who are worried about immigration. >> well, i think, you know, looking at that latter part of the equation there in terms of what people may have, that's a long term issue, right? when it comes to immigration, i do think you know, personally speaking a little, my own personal preference is always open to immigration, is to have controlled immigration because i think it's good for the uk. but on average, i do think that, you know, amongst my constituents previously and across the uk is that people want to slow down the rate of immigration. we need

more time so that we can make sure that there's cohesion across society. so i do think we should listen to long term. obviously we're not going to be negotiating in the short term with people who have been violent, who have been rioting, who have been attacking hotels. that's not going to happen. it needs to be on the long term. in the long term, that has to go into the thinking. absolutely. >> nigel nelson, welcome to the show. and you moutaz ahmed. nigel, first, do you think the government's had a has done an appropriate response so far to these. >> yeah i do i mean i think that right from the start that what keir starmer did, he was talking about facial recognition technology, travel bans because these are roving bands of, of rioters. that seems to me proportionate for the threat that that , that we're facing. if that that, that we're facing. if local communities are being attacked, that that the rioters rights to protest go out the window. so, yes , he did the window. so, yes, he did the right thing then then of course, he's been criticised for a for a late cobra, but cobra came up with something today. what was

the point of having a meeting over the weekend when they didn't have anything to discuss? >> moutaz ahmed is it time to recall parliament? >> i don't know , is it time to >> i don't know, is it time to recall? but will we call in parliament to stop this? i think actually we need to go a bit deeper than just violence and far right, right. because i think the interesting thing is when you listen to what these people are saying, they're beginning to act like a minority group defending minority. these people, by the way, the, these white, the white protesters in particular. what's strange is they're beginning to act like a minority group defending their minority group defending their minority rights against an overbearing government . i'm overbearing government. i'm familiar with this sort of language because i'm from a minority group myself. right. if you listen to tommy robinson and ihave you listen to tommy robinson and i have listened to him, he's talking a lot more about keir starmer. he's talking a lot more about the government than he is about the government than he is about muslims . right. that is about muslims. right. that is the language of a minority group leader. and it's dangerous because it opens him up to far more people. he looks like a victim leader and that that

opens him up to sympathisers. right? | opens him up to sympathisers. right? i don't advise people to listen to is the feeling there that the government's taken sides in this against the tommy robinson brigade? >> i suppose they have to, because they i think the tommy right brigade are learning lessons from the black lives. >> black lives matter brigade, and that they're politicising this in a way that they haven't in the past. and it's proving far more effective. i think that means there are no simple answers here. and it could go on not just for weeks or months, but for years. and these riots could come back. >> it's a big test. nigel nelson, for this government, i mean, the honeymoon, such as it was, appears to be over. yeah >> i mean, this is an event that comes out of the blue. that's what happens to prime ministers. so they get hit by things that they don't know about. when you talk about a recall of parliament. no, the only the point of it is it. well the point of it is it. well the point would be if you needed emergency powers. so for instance, if you wanted to use terrorism legislation to deal with this, if that was deemed necessary, then you recall parliament. other than that, keir starmer is absolutely right

to resist that. >> the issue of far right is what seems to be exercising a lot of gb news listeners and viewers. moutaz ahmed i mean, is it far right to be worried about immigration? >> it's not far right to be worried about immigration. it is far right to be burning down. yes mosques or hard right, or whatever you want to call it. is that nuance missing from the government's communications? >> do you think ? >> do you think? >> do you think? >> i think i think keir starmer tried at the start to sort of, you know, not use the phrase far right. it actually doesn't matter what you call these people, the people who are burning things down are extreme. they're on the extreme end of something. it doesn't matter what phrase you use, they just need to be cracked down upon. but there is a you do have to draw a line of separation between those people and people who are worried about immigration. >> mark logan, do these riots do you think expose a fissure, a dividing line between here? what westminster. the place behind us and out there where you represented for mp until may this year ? and how can this

this year? and how can this government bridge that divide? well, one thing i mean, coming from northern ireland and something that i've been concerned about over, over a number of years in mainland britain, is the potential ulster ification of english politics. >> you know, when we look at what does that mean, ossification. well, when we look at the scotland independence referendum in 2014 and the rise of nationalism, when we look at brexit in 2016, and i started to hear english friends talking about us and them and going into these groups, it felt a lot like northern ireland when i was growing up. you're a protestant. are you a catholic? and we shouldn't be, you know, bringing everyone down to this zero sum of trying to put people into these pigeon holes like to make ever an identity politics, isn't it? it's identity politics. it also is the potential to spill over into ethnic conflict. and i think we should try as much as possible to avoid that happening. we should be open as well, though, if we need a debate, a debate has to happen. i don't think that now is the appropriate time for that. but perhaps we're coming back in september, october time and when the parliaments are around. party conference season is that there should be an increasing number of debates on this issue.

and social cohesion. >> nigel nelson, what would you be advising sir keir starmer tonight to deal with this? he's trying to get away on holiday. we think he's he's in london all week now. yeah. what would you holiday. can't go anywhere really. well while parts of england are ablaze. >> yeah i think the next stage is looking at social media. he's already indicated that's what he has to do. >> but these users or companies or both. >> well it's both isn't it . >> well it's both isn't it. because what is happening is that the ironically by by people who claim to be anti—islamists, they're being radicalised online in the same way that al—qaeda and isis radicalised, radicalised terrorists . so what radicalised terrorists. so what you've got to find out is what you've got to find out is what you can do about it. ofcom has a part to play. they're dealing with, with children at the moment online and the harms to children. they must look at hate speech. france for instance, makes makes social media companies take down hate speech within an hour. otherwise there's going to be a huge fine moutaz ahmed, you've got hotels being targeted with migrants inside. >> that is government policy. a

tory government policy. in fact, that's why they're there, the rwanda plan has gone. there's no other way of removing people. >> and the key point, by the way, just on social media is the government is just not equipped to deal with the likes of elon musk. if you look at how long it took the government to get through the online harms bill. yeah, right. with all those consultations, how it has changed and how it's changed. and at the end of it, it was already outdated. this is not a government that's equipped take on someone like that. >> that's all governments. but on this situation the these hotels are targets for these the far right as i described by by by the labour government. i mean it's not the migrants fault. they're stuck in these hotels. it's government policy to put them there. >> it's government policy to put them there and protect them there. right. yeah. and then the risk of far right attack was always something that they had to consider. the fact that these attacks have been able to happen, allowed to happen, nevertheless, is quite shocking. and what comes next? >> nigel nelson, how long will this go on for? i mean, you've been around, longer than i have. i'm a covering politics. yeah. >> i mean, i think we look at

the last really serious riots in this country, 2011, a massive police presence eventually dealt with that. and i think that's the way we're going here. >> nigel nelson, bucha ahmed and mulligan, thank you for joining us tonight on gbn tonight. now, coming up as they prepare to scrap anti—strike laws, we'll be asking, is this necessary to bnng asking, is this necessary to bring back the er to end, months of disruption or is labour caving in to the

welcome back to gb and tonight with me christopher. hope you've been getting in touch with us. connor asks well rather he says i asked chatgpt, which is an ai app' i asked chatgpt, which is an ai app, if starmer's characterisation of the protesters was biased and inaccurate and it agreed. vince vince says that starmer said he would not be a government. i'll start again, vince says. starmer

said he would not be a government of gimmicks . his government of gimmicks. his standing army is exactly that. now standing army is language used to describe how the police will react to trouble if it breaks out over the coming days by the prime minister. so welcome back to gbn tonight with me, christopher hope. the labour government is set to scrap anti—strike laws in what will be described, what is described as a major reset for workers rights. tomorrow the government will remove what it calls unnecessary restrictions on trade union activity and simplify the process for workers to organise strikes and protests. but is this necessary to end the cycle of strikes of chaos in our workplaces, or is labour caving to in trade union demands? joining me now is trade unionist and author paul embry. paul unionist and author paul embry. paul, thank you for joining me tonight on gbn tonight. great to see you. hi, christopher. is this the white flag in the face of threats of strikes from pubuc of threats of strikes from public sector workers ?

public sector workers? >> i think it's absolutely the right move actually by the labour government. i think that the minimum service levels act was an unethical piece of legislation. i think it was an unworkable piece of legislation. i think it was ultimately an attempt to ban strikes in certain industries and services by the back door when the government didn't have the guts to propose that. so it tried to do it by an alternative method. listen, members of a trade union are legitimate recognised legal trade union have got the right to vote in a democratic ballot to vote in a democratic ballot to withdraw their labour. and having taken that democratic decision, i think for any government to then say, actually, we're going to ignore that and force you or give an employer the right to force you to cross a picket line, which, as sure as you know, christopher is a cardinal sin in the trade union movement, is just not acceptable . and that's why it's acceptable. and that's why it's unethical. and ultimately it wouldn't have worked. >> but why is the government on such, such a back foot against

trade unionists? it seems they're paying over 20% to junior doctors. they've honoured inflation busting pay rises recommended by the pay review bodies. and now the government is backing away from providing a minimal service to taxpayers from from these unions. i mean, thatis from from these unions. i mean, that is basically giving carte blanche to a winter of discontent. if unions want to press of other unions, want to press of other unions, want to press for junior doctor size pay rises , i don't think the rises, i don't think the government is on the back foot or is waving the white flag. >> in fact, if you speak to trade union leaders, they will tell you that they've had to fight tooth and nail to get any concessions from sir keir starmer. and this is really the minimum that they, that the labour government could have offered. but look people, we're just emerging from a cost of living crisis during that crisis, there was the tightest grip on wages in this country since napoleonic times, ordinary workers, trade unionists of non and non trade unionists have found it very difficult in many

cases to make ends meet, to pay their bills, to put food on the table and so on, and it's right and proper that workers should have the opportunity to take action in order to get a fair pay action in order to get a fair pay rise if they're not able to achieve that through negotiation, so no, i don't accept that the labour government is caving in to the trade unions. the law, as it was introduced by the conservatives, was, as i say, unworkable and unethical. and this seems to me to be an entirely sensible and constructive step, which will ultimately, i think, head off, future industrial action, because it will show the unions that the government is more serious about negotiation than the previous government was. >> look, paul embery, thank you for joining us tonight on gbn tonight. joining me now in the panelis tonight. joining me now in the panel is gb news senior political commentator nigel nelson, an associate commentator at the telegraph, moutaz ahmed moutaz . you heard there from moutaz. you heard there from paul embery. is he is he right? an entirely sensible solution and brings to an end this difficult relations between the

government, the tory government and trade unions just to tackle something he said very quickly. >> he said that the trade unions had to fight tooth and nail to get any concessions from the starmer government. i think something like a 20% pay rise to junior doctors over two years is a pretty big concession right off the bat. what's the part of this , act that labour is seeking this, act that labour is seeking to ignore immediately its minimum service requirements ? minimum service requirements? those are in industries that if they strike, they could cripple britain. right. we're talking about ambulance services , fire about ambulance services, fire trucks. we're talking about the railways. we're talking about doctors and teachers. and we saw how they crippled britain last year , the it's a very dangerous year, the it's a very dangerous gamble for a government to start scrapping these things. labour is doing it because it assumes that the trade unions wouldn't cripple britain under a labour government . that's a very government. that's a very dangerous gamble, because once you stop giving out 20% pay rises, they might just turn around and start acting irrationally. >> nigel nelson used to work for the for the mirror. your left of

centre commentator. will the labour government reject the regret? this? >> no. i think that this was sensible. it was a ridiculous piece of legislation to bring in, i mean, first of all, it could make things worse that it was never used for that very reason. one rail company thought about using it against a one day strike, aslef would then have extended it to five days and make things even worse. that would have gone throughout all those industries, work to rules, would have actually lasted longer. people would have been more disrupted . what strikes are more disrupted. what strikes are they should be the last resort , they should be the last resort, not a first response to industrial, industrial negotiations. when i was a journalist, shop steward, if i'd ever had to lead a strike, i'd have resigned immediately afterwards because i think that you can pretty much always negotiate your way through musa qala is nigel right? >> this is more of a grown up way to approach industrial relations. >> there's a general assumption on the left that trade unions are very sensible, professional bodies. yes. we saw we saw with

mick lynch. right. how they can be sort of they, they, they can be sort of they, they, they can be overtaken by a sort of click here to defend himself, not here to defend himself, but they are vulnerable to cults of personalities. they are they can. >> lynch was a very good union leader. he was excellent. >> he was excellent. but he he maybe had too much power over the national conversation at that time. he was very fair. well, you say so. with, with the, with the rail companies was actually fair and he ended up with a settlement and the railways are now back and running. the point i'm making is when you make big demands, you can then say that your strike is the, the, the, the last action you're taking. but actually it was the demand that was the problem. and i think this assumption that, you know, trade unions are totally fair, sensible , professional is going sensible, professional is going to come back to bite at some point . point. >> yeah, nigel, but surely mutazz is right. the unions are doing their best for their members. of course they are. their job. and that might get them as much as they can.

>> yes, of course they do the for best them. that's absolutely right. but the whole thing is that what you can do and what you should do and what the tory government didn't do, is sit down and talk about whatever the dispute might be and come to a resolution at the end of it, what labour has done by coming in here, whatever you think about the amounts that were given out, they've settled the junior doctors dispute, they settled, any other disputes coming up with public sector workers that will save money in the long run because strikes are expensive. >> you can say, well, nigel nelson moutaz ahmed, thank you for now. now still to come. as the treasury admits the government has scrapped tory plans to cut tens of thousands of civil service jobs. i'll be asking, is this the right call ?

welcome back to gbn. tonight. i'm christopher hope. now, the

chancellor, rachel reeves , has chancellor, rachel reeves, has quietly binned the previous tory government's plans to cut 66,000 civil service jobs, according to treasury documents unearthed by the telegraph this week . labour the telegraph this week. labour has reversed the freeze on whitehall recruitment and no longer intends to reduce the civil service headcount to pre—covid levels. this is despite the overall size of whitehall, swelling from 480,000in 2020 to 280,000in 2023, up by 100,000 since the brexit vote in 2016. it comes as ms reeves has been telling departments to find £3 billion in efficiency savings. is this the right call? joining me now is my panel, gb news senior political commentator nigel nelson, an associate commentator at the telegraph moutaz ahmed, is it moutaz ? is it moutaz? >> is it? >> is it? >> it's not. it's unwinding all of those efforts to cut the size

of those efforts to cut the size of the literally the size of the state by people like jacob rees—mogg, remember him or it's something that's needed. >> i mean, if you listen to or look at the work of another fellow gb news reporter, stephen egginton , the stuff he's exposed egginton, the stuff he's exposed in the home office with all their work programmes, you wonder how these people manage to find the time to do anything else, right? there's clearly an over sort of employment of civil servants. it needs to be cut . servants. it needs to be cut. people like sue gray were always going to oppose it because they have their own chief of staff to keir starmer, chief of staff to keir starmer, chief of staff to keir starmer. they have their own culture in the civil service. and that's what she comes from. >> nelson moutaz ahmed is right, isn't it? it's far easier, frankly, to add jobs to than cut them. cutting jobs is really, really hard. and in the private sector really hard and virtually impossible in the state sector. >> but they will be cut anyway . >> but they will be cut anyway. despite this, i mean, what the tories were doing was coming up with an with an arbitrary target. let's get rid of 60, 66,000 civil servants that will solve all the problems. what rachel reeves has come up with.

she's she's asking departments to make 2% cuts, and as a result of that, there will be lost jobs. so it's not as if the civil service is actually increasing. you're just doing it. doing it in a much in a much better way. >> why is the state 100,000 bigger than in 2016? moutaz ahmad is that is that maybe because brexit's repatriated a third of the laws in this country? we need more civil servants to do laws. >> well, it's brexit, but it's covid as well right in. and it's also when public sector productivity goes down, you require more people to fill in those , those, those productivity those, those, those productivity gaps. so and also what sorry. what are we changing post brexit to require these civil servants. i just don't buy the argument. you all know better than me, jacob, but the civil service headcount has increased by a third or more. have we been able to justify that in productivity terms? >> well, jacob rees—mogg, you're

the former business secretary. you led the attempts to shrink the size of the state. how's it feel to see what labour are up to now? well, i, as minister of government efficiency and when i was first appointed, i got very excited because the permanent secretary came to see me and said the target was to get the levels of staffing down to 1920 levels. and i thought, marvellous, that'll be a few thousand civil servants. he meant, of course, 2019, 2020. but that was we were aiming for pre—covid of 91,000 people and we could have done that actually by natural wastage, by the number of people who retire each yean number of people who retire each year, who resign, who go on to other jobs. you didn't need otherjobs. you didn't need massive swathes being cut through, but you also needed people to turn up for work. and part of the problem is people simply aren't turning up for work. and look at the very good reporting done in the daily mail by a guy adams on the hmrc. >> simply not turning up to work in cardiff, isn't it? cardiff and he waited about two hours and he waited about two hours and yes, nobody goes in. >> can i ask you about this figure 66,000 to be cut by nigel

nelson says it's arbitrary. was it arbitrary or was it a real number? >> look, when i was doing it for boris, we had a clear programme. 91,000. not 66,000. we knew how to do it by not hiring, not hiring, by working out that some things you didn't need to do. we had a programme that was about to start, bits of it were being put into place, and then i'm afraid rishi sunak's government wasn't interested for about a yeah wasn't interested for about a year. so yeah, it was wasted doing nothing. and now we're back to the year of wasting. so nigel is probably right. in a year's time the government will see the sums don't add up and it will say, we're going to have a big drive to cut back the civil service, and they won't do anything. the chance to do it was in 2022 and we bungled it. i'm afraid. >> nigel nelson yeah, the chance is to do it now. i mean, if rachel reeves is going to be cutting the departmental budgets and demanding these efficiency savings that she says she is, thatis savings that she says she is, that is going to mean people will be losing their jobs, the question is, i think jacob's point was actually very good there. if it's done through natural wastage, if you are

deaung natural wastage, if you are dealing with jobs that no longer need to be done, that's the way to go ahead. but but what this doesn't mean is that the civil service will suddenly balloon into even greater size. it means it's being done differently and done properly , along alongside done properly, along alongside the public service. >> so important . jacob. >> so important. jacob. actually, one of the things we were talking about was paying people more, but having fewer of them. we pay an awful lot of people, not very well to do jobs badly . that is a terrible way to badly. that is a terrible way to run the state. this obsession with people not being paid more than the prime minister, which is complete irrelevance, which stops the best people being brought into jobs that needs to go brought into jobs that needs to 9° pay brought into jobs that needs to go pay people more, have many , go pay people more, have many, many fewer of them. >> moutaz ahmed, what was your are you a pro work from home person or is it not good? >> i've been forced to work from home at times, but no, i'm not, not happy. it's not. it's not good for your career and it's not good for productivity. it just doesn't work, and i'm definitely not a work from anywhere person, which is something that i know happens,

especially this month of august. companies encourage people to work from anywhere. yes, that could include the beach, the beach. i would say the benefit of an arbitrary number is that you force the hands of permanent secretaries to get rid of the waste that they would otherwise sort of entertain. >> nigel nelson is mutazz right. a number is important to focus the idea of cutting the costs of all or all as taxpayers. >> well, it's not the way to go about it. the idea is that you look you look at the way you can actually cut staff because you actually cut staff because you actually you don't need them. thatis actually you don't need them. that is what is going to happen with these efficiency savings . with these efficiency savings. >> jacob, briefly on your show coming up, will it be about working home and the perils of not not getting rid of civil servants? >> it's actually going to be about the police commissioner losing his temper. as somebody who's been doorstepped once or twice over my political career, it absolutely extraordinary that the head rosa bashes this thing out of the way. sir mark rowley, sir. mark rowley. hey, ho! said rowley bashes the microphone out of the way and says, he didn't mean to . i'm glad he's made an

mean to. i'm glad he's made an apology, but yes, he's in a rush. the top policeman mustn't lose his right. >> when asked about two tier policing. >> whatever he's asked about, he mustn't lose his rag because the bafic mustn't lose his rag because the basic constable mustn't lose his rag. >> well, jacob rees—mogg, thank you for that, mark rowley. mike dropped to my mic drop. mutazz ahmed, thank you for joining us. also nigel nelson coming up, state of the nation with my friend jacob rees—mogg. first though, the weather. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news >> hello. good evening. here's your gb news weather update brought to you by the met office. there will be some sunny spells but also a few showers around tomorrow. before then though, we do have a band of rain still making its way across the country. that's because we have a front that's brought some rain to parts of northern uk already, and it's now making its way east southeastwards across parts of england and wales, with

some heavy bursts in amongst it towards the southeast. we're staying dry through this evening and overnight and here temperatures not dropping a huge amount. so another relatively warm night because of some high humidity. but we do have fresher air coming in behind this front. and so things are going to be turning fresher as we go into tomorrow . first thing tomorrow tomorrow. first thing tomorrow morning, do watch out for some heavy bursts of rain, particularly across parts of east midlands, into lincolnshire and also across some central southern parts of england . there southern parts of england. there may even be some rumbles of thunder around as well in the far east, starting bright but rain arriving later. far east, starting bright but rain arriving later . also far east, starting bright but rain arriving later. also plenty of bright fine weather across parts of the south—west wales, northern england, northern ireland and much of scotland too, with that front having pushed through already. that being said, there will be a few showers around , particularly showers around, particularly towards western parts of scotland and as we go through the day tomorrow we are going to see those showers becoming a bit more widespread, especially across scotland and northern ireland. but even parts of england and wales could see a few showers at times. the front is going to still be lingering

across parts of far eastern england as we go through into tomorrow afternoon, but the rain looks pretty light by the time it reaches here. still, some relatively warm conditions across the far east, mid 20s here, elsewhere, a bit fresher because of that fresher air coming in on wednesday. we can expect some heavy showery rain across scotland and then plenty of showers elsewhere and a bit of showers elsewhere and a bit of a cool, breezy feel to things as well. and then later on in the week i'm looking at a bit of rain arriving as we go through thursday, and there could be some more rain pushing through on friday, as well as a series of fronts come in from the atlantic by a brighter outlook, with boxt solar, sponsors of weather on gb. >> news

>> hello. good evening. it's me, jacob rees—mogg on state of the nafion jacob rees—mogg on state of the

nation tonight . riots have nation tonight. riots have continued to unfold across the country and the allegations of two tier care have begun. we will be looking at his response to some of the previous riots in the united kingdom. meanwhile, can you guess which left wing activists predicted just a few weeks ago that a labour government would turn the uk into a haven of peace and stability? labour's march through the institutions has begun as it begins to roll back the tory agenda, including keeping 66,000 civil servants on the payroll, all funded by you. plus, the government is being taken to court over its decision to repeal a law promoting freedom of speech in universities. could we be facing the end of free speech? state of the end of free speech? state of the nation starts now . the nation starts now. i'll also be joined by my panel. telegraph columnist tim stanley and author and broadcaster emma nicole turner as always, it's a

crucial part of the