in london. already, walthamstow in london. already, a list of immigration law firms has been shared in an online chat group with a possible target for gatherings which the director of public prosecutions has warned could be considered a terrorism offence. it comes as one case of alleged terrorism is already actively under consideration. police are urging people to ignore the list of locations, telling rioters officers will be waiting. it comes as at least 12 individuals have been convicted for their part in the ongoing disorder. speaking a short time ago, deputy prime minister angela rayner said there's no excuse for thuggery. >> i know that the public will be feeling anxious about the reports of potential more, unrest tonight, but the police will be there to respond to any violent and criminality that we see on our streets. there's no place for that on our uk streets. and the police will do their job streets. and the police will do theirjob like streets. and the police will do their job like they streets. and the police will do theirjob like they have done their job like they have done exceptionally well under very difficult circumstances , like difficult circumstances, like i've seen here and witnessed

today, what they faced missiles being thrown at them and attacked, but the police will be there to keep the public safe and there's no excuse for thuggery and criminality on the streets . streets. >> however, speaking last night, the former home secretary priti patel called for labour government to be more accountable. >> this is why we have to have the questions. the scrutiny to the questions. the scrutiny to the home secretary and to keir starmer, because actually the police need to have the tools, the equipment, the backing to police in the right way across all protests. it doesn't matter who, but literally all the protests where we're seeing thuggery , violence, criminality, thuggery, violence, criminality, everyone. that's involved in that, these protests should be pleased. i've seen footage on television. i'm sure you have as well. i saw some on social media last night from one part of the country where i saw no police . i country where i saw no police. i want to know. i want to know why that was. why. why was there no police presence? >> it comes as the metropolitan

police commissioner has dismissed accusations of two tier policing, calling it complete nonsense. the criticism came from figures including nigel farage and elon musk, who argued that last week's disorder was handled more severely than it would have been if ethnic minorities were involved . and minorities were involved. and it's understood mps have been told to work from home ahead of possible violent disorder tonight. commons speaker sir lindsay hoyle has told elected representatives to exercise caution amid fears immigration and asylum assistance offices could be among the targets. mps are thought to have been told home working is one option to bolster their security and common spokesperson has warned mps safety is a fundamental to our democracy . those are the our democracy. those are the latest gb news headlines. for now, i'm sophia wenzler more in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code , or go to scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com. >> forward slash alerts .

>> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts. >> good evening. it's not stopping. it could even be accelerating. we're told intelligence says there are up to 100 protests planned tonight across the country, and up to 30 counter protests. and whilst we all hope and pray we don't get the scenes of violence that we've seen over the course of the last week, none of us at all can be confident that that is the case. i wonder because i fear that we may be in a perilous position. why do i say that? well, the bedrock of how we settle disputes, of how we govern ourselves is we vote. we 90, govern ourselves is we vote. we go, and we argue against each other , and we have a government other, and we have a government thatis other, and we have a government that is elected . and we might that is elected. and we might not like that government, but we accept that the majority have voted for somebody other than

ourselves. and we say, you know what? we're going to work hard over the course of the next five years so that our team win next time round. that is parliamentary democracy . that is parliamentary democracy. that is what works. that is what maintains the peace. you don't need to go out and riot and protest and set fire to things. all the while you've got confidence in your parliamentary system. my fear, and i'm certainly seeing this from people that write to me and email me, is we're beginning to see, particularly in a younger generation , a growing number of generation, a growing number of people who just don't think democracy functions , just don't democracy functions, just don't think it works for them. just don't think that promises that get made at elections are actually carried out, and that concerns me. one of the other things that has led to such ill feeling in the country is two tier policing. now. we had a fierce debate last night here about whether a two tier policing exists or not. well, i'll tell you something . there i'll tell you something. there is a very widespread perception

that it does. let's just see this from craig guilford, chief constable of the west midlands police , speaking earlier on police, speaking earlier on today. >> salam alaikum . there is one >> salam alaikum. there is one tier of policing that implies to all of us, and that means that we police without fear or favour. chakram >> i don't think coming out with foreign languages , addressing foreign languages, addressing one particular community in the west midlands makes an awful lot of sense . does anything to of sense. does anything to dampen down speculation about two tier policing and extraordinarily emilyn richards , extraordinarily emilyn richards, the superintendent of the west midlands, was asked how was it that a large number of masked men, some carrying dangerous weapons, were allowed to go outside that pub in birmingham? one man came out, was beaten to a pulp, has finished up with a lacerated liver. windows were smashed. the pub doors were locked for safety. how is it

that wasn't being policed? and extraordinarily what superintendent richards said. we had the opportunity to meet with community leaders prior to the event to understand the style of policing that we needed. so you ask a group of counterprotesters what policing do we need? and they say absolutely none whatsoever. and the police say, that's fine. what i'm making is nothing is being done by the police or by the government to get rid of this perception of two tier policing. and none of thatis two tier policing. and none of that is helpful in any way at all. i'm joined to discuss the implications for democracy, for law and order, for our society. by law and order, for our society. by ranil jayawardena, former environment secretary and international trade minister, member of parliament from 2015 to 2024 and joe phillips, paddy ashdown's former press secretary and former editor of radio five live's sunday service programme. but first, i'm going to go to

immigration lawyer and friend of this programme, ivan sampson, who joins me down the line. ivan, you and i have debated the legal and illegal immigration situation in britain regularly over the course of the last three years. what do you think has led to this massive upsurge in violence, and does it surprise you? >> well, i think there's been some terrible rhetoric by the previous government blaming migrants for much of our vote woes, the lack of housing, the pressure on the public services. and it's simply not true that we have a legal duty to protect, those that have come to this country, whether they're migrants , whether they're asylum migrants, whether they're asylum seekers. we have legal obugafions seekers. we have legal obligations under international treaties, and especially those that are coming for protection. we don't want to persecute those people that are seeking protection from being persecuted abroad. it's a terrible look for

our country. >> if we were to take out for a moment the numbers that have come into britain and claimed asylum, but talk about the levels of legal migration, the population increase of 6 million since the conservatives came to power. surely then the arguments about shortage of housing, lack of access to gp's problems with infrastructure. surely then there is some logic that says that mass immigration has made life harder for many millions of people . people. >> look, the data doesn't bear that out. if you look at actual legal migration , they actually legal migration, they actually gave a positive immigration impact on our economy. that's the data . whereas i agree that the data. whereas i agree that if the, the census, if the feeling in the nation is that we shouldn't have so much mass immigration because they don't share our values , then the share our values, then the government should install policies to reflect that. but

what we can't do is ignore people's feelings. i'm with you on that, nigel. there is a lot of people who have strong feelings against the way that our society is being moulded by people who don't speak our language, don't share our values. yeah, i'm with you on that. that's a debate that needs to be had. >> but this only works, ivan. if people get what they vote for. and some would argue that repeated promises have been made to lower the overall numbers coming to britain, and the opposite has happened . opposite has happened. >> absolutely. and the conservatives are the worst. and it's increased the most under their watch . so, absolutely. their watch. so, absolutely. it's very difficult to get migration down when there's a commercial need for it, we don't have the people to fill the jobs, so we need to recruit our local people. we need to have proper training so that in the long term, we can put british people for british jobs and not foreigners. >> ivan samson, as ever. thank you for joining >> ivan samson, as ever. thank you forjoining us and giving us your opinion. well, ranald, it's

all your fault, you've put out a terrible narrative that people's lives are being devalued by mass immigration whilst at the same time your government opened the doors in a way never seen before. >> well, i like ivan, but that was, i'm afraid , rather was, i'm afraid, rather incoherent, you know, he's absolutely fair to say that immigration has been too high and that more needed to be done. that was why the scheme, like rwanda, was important to send it to tehran. but here's the problem right now, you know, you've got a labour government who are going to allow a full open door and allow people to come here, whatever. i don't think they're, you know , i'm think they're, you know, i'm really sorry. >> i don't think that a party that promises in four consecutive general election manifestos. net migration figures of tens of thousands a year and produces three quarters of a million a year, can really have a go at the labour party. >> well, the labour party are the party in government right now. and people are unhappy with some of the things that the

current government are doing. you know, they've scrapped the bibby stockholm haven't they? they are going to scrap the raf camps that were going to be used . camps that were going to be used. they're going to use government housing, and we're going to come to that later in the programme. >> is am i right to worry that a growing number of young people are losing faith in the democratic system , and that democratic system, and that turns them towards violence? >> you're right to worry about it. clearly, as you said, elections are the place that people should fight for what they believe in, not violence on they believe in, not violence on the streets. on whatever side of the streets. on whatever side of the argument, people are in. and we saw in the general election, we're seeing now , people use we're seeing now, people use violence or indeed threatening behaviour to try and intimidate others. that is what is wrong. >> for one of the first times joe, ever the liberal democrat, share a vote, a number of mps actually reflected what people voted for. absolutely not the case for other parties. but i'm not going to delve deeply. >> i think it's the one thing you and i agree on is proportional representation. >> but do you see my point that i genuinely believe just what i see? the email box that comes to me? >> but nigel, i would say to

you, if you believe in parliamentary democracy, which is about the only thing that keeps us vaguely on the straight and narrow, why didn't you ask the question that you asked on twitter in parliament? because. because wait a minute. let me just finish. because i think what we have to remember and perhaps has been forgotten in the news coverage today. the inquests opened today into the deaths of those three little girls that were murdered in southport two weeks ago. their lives , their families absolutely lives, their families absolutely upended a town in shock. if the person who had done that had been white or the little girls had been asian, or of a different, would you have gone on twitter and asked the same question, basically raising a question, basically raising a question, raising suspicions and fuelling what was already going around that this person with a fake name was an illegal asylum? >> alleged murder at this stage, just for legal reasons? yes. when parliament debated it, it

was an expression of sorrow. it wasn't the time for a political comment. you know, when the london bridge murder happened, we learnt within an hour that the person had been on a police list. whenever there was an atrocity in northern ireland. the first question anybody asked is, was this person under investigation? over a week ago there was all sorts of nonsense going around on the internet, which had it been slapped down, i think the southport riots would not have been as bad as they were. >> you slap it down. >> you slap it down. >> i asked one very simple question that would have slapped it down. was this person on a list or not? and you know what? i still haven't got an answer. >> but you did. i still haven't got an answer. >> but you did . still, you >> but you did. still, you didn't say, this is untrue. we don't know. >> they didn't go along with any of the conspiracy theory that he'd come on a boat last october, etc. i ignored all of that. october, etc. i ignored all of that . it would have been that. it would have been enormously helpful if the home office and the police had told people very quickly that whoever this man was, he was actually born in cardiff. they did none of those things. and i think the silence made what happened in southport worse . but now where

southport worse. but now where we are is much more serious now, where we are is much more serious. >> but you should have used the parliamentary democracy. >> i had no means to do it at that time . you did. i would have that time. you did. i would have beenif that time. you did. i would have been if i'd got an elected mp, if i'd got up and asked a political question like that at a moment of expression of sorrow, it would have looked appalling. >> well, it didn't look particularly good on twitter. >> and look what i'm sorry, i disagree entirely. i think there's a very fair question. a legitimate question, and it's still not been answered. but when parliament comes back, i will ask, but can we at the point that actually nothing that someone might say on twitter or indeedin someone might say on twitter or indeed in the house of commons should condone the violence that's happening? >> no, no, absolutely. and that's the point here that people should not say that they've got any excuse for the behaviour that we're seeing on any side rental . any side rental. >> i fought elections for 30 years. i've never been involved in any violence or street protests of any kind at all. i utterly condemn what is going on. i know there are problems out there in the country, but my real worry here is a growing number of people are losing faith in democracy. >> i'm afraid that it is not helped by, as ivan solomon just said , you know, you're, i

said, you know, you're, i presume, still party ronald, but, you know, your former colleagues like suella braverman who stoked up the woke wars, the culture wars, and used language like invasion and talked about what would the lib dems do about the cross—channel problem. the lib dems would have done something to clear the backlog. i mean , just just just let i mean, just just just let everyone stay. no part of the problem is the backlog and you know that and you know that because because they're sitting well , people because because they're sitting well, people are waiting some of them for up to 2 or 3 years in hotels waiting for their asylum to be processed. >> no, the problem is people are coming to the country illegally. >> i don't know what we'll do. i tell you what we'll do after the break. we will come back. we will discuss the backlog and we will discuss the backlog and we will discuss the backlog and we will discuss operation scatter, which is the labour government's plan to take people , young men plan to take people, young men who've crossed the channel out of hotels and to put them into social and private housing. we'll ask whether that's a good policy. all of that in just

well, the boats are still coming . well, the boats are still coming. over 17,000 have come so far this year over the english channel. the ratios are about the same as ever. it's 91% men, most of them very young. but the home secretary, yvette cooper, laid out last friday a statutory instrument that would allow the government to process the 100,000 or so asylum seekers that are stuck in the backlog. the government believes by clearing the asylum backlog, by speeding up processing, they'll be able to eliminate the need for larger sites altogether. those larger sites being raf wethersfield , scampton, the wethersfield, scampton, the bibby stockholm , etc. huge bibby stockholm, etc. huge backlog left behind by the last government is the labour policy. just to say everyone can stay? >> well, that's exactly the

problem, right? so this is going to encourage more people to now make that perilous journey across the channel. you know, ultimately we want no one to cross because that saves lives and it reduces this problem here. and no one can possibly suggest that france is not a safe country, it's really interesting. of course, they've cancelled the rwanda plan before we had a chance to have it. and now what's the italian government doing? they've got a plan very similar with albania . plan very similar with albania. they you know. yeah. so this is just going to now the italians, the italians have done something thatis the italians have done something that is true . that is true. >> and joe joe is basically the policy just doesn't matter who comes. >> just i don't think it is at all. >> and it sounds like it doesn't it. >> well, well, only in your head. >> nigel, ijust head. >> nigel, i just read you the statement. >> i know, but that is not what it means. what it means is, if you look at the cost, the huge cost of preparing these raf bases, you know, the last government said it was going to be 5 million, and then it it went up to 27 million for for, one of them or the other. and there is no doubt that any when you were an mp, ronald, i'm sure

whether there was one in your constituency, people would have gone. constituency, people would have gone . we don't want that there. gone. we don't want that there. we don't want that large mass of people. so that seems to me to make sense . but if you start make sense. but if you start processing people, you send back the ones that don't have any right to be. well, if people have come from we've we've already seen people return to albania under the last government from albania, where almost nowhere. >> india almost. i mean, it's very difficult, isn't it? >> well , it's very difficult, isn't it? >> well, it's very difficult. >> well, it's very difficult. >> very difficult because we're stuck with echr is what i would argue. but let's move on. >> well, no, let's not go down the echr. i'm afraid that's what stops us. well, it isn't, it's because the government, the previous government allowed the backlog to increase, to increase, increase. and every now and again they'd come up with another wacky idea. rwanda would have cost a fortune and would have cost a fortune and would have cost a fortune and would have probably had one plane taken off, would have taken you know, a couple of boatloads of people. >> it was i mean, the idea was the idea was it was to be a disincentive, but it never, ever

happened. now, operation scatter is the new plan, and that means rather, i think the peak was 420 hotels that were completely filled around the country. but labour have got a much better plan. we won't use visible hotels , we won't use visible hotels, we won't use visible military sites. what we'll do is we will scatter people amongst social housing allocation and amongst the private rented sector. it will no doubt be more expensive than the £8 million a day we're paying for the hotels. but here's the point now in february, the government launched a consultation on eligibility for social housing. having a uk connection test, a local connection test, etc. yet we find out that in areas like brent, up to 40% of new tenancies in the last couple of years went to non uk nationals. and i just wonder and do we know whether those people working in the health service, do we know . the health service, do we know. no we don't know. >> we just so we're just jumping to conclusions. >> i tell you what we know there is a large feeling in the country that people who come in from outside get things that

those who are born of generations of people that have worked and pay tax don't get. that perception is quite widespread. doesn't operations scatter make that worse? >> no, i don't think it does, because i think when you when you come out with things like that that are taken completely and utterly out of context, foreign nationals may well be here perfectly , legitimately here perfectly, legitimately working in the health service, which we don't have because we don't people because we don't train nurses anymore. that's right. and we've had 14 years of madness, 14 years of a tory government that didn't invest in any training for all the jobs that we did. >> that's not true. and it's just not just not well, it is. >> well, actually, actually, to be fair to jay, to be fair to jay, it is true. you know, we have actually started to rely more on agency nursing from abroad. we did social care. we capped the number of people going to medical school to train as doctors. these were mistakes. well why is that number capped? >> because the bma want it capped. i mean, i agree with that point that we should be allowing as many people on fina. we should be allowing as many social care. >> we could be here for hours.

>> we could be here for hours. >> we could be here for hours. >> we want to train as a doctor to do so. but but the problem here, you know, i agree with joe in terms of, you know, people are contributing to our economy or our society, then. fine. and those statistics, you know, may not be found, but they may be anecdotally true. but the real problem here is scatter means that it will be hiding the real problem, which is people being housed at the government's expense, i.e. the taxpayers expense, i.e. the taxpayers expense. expense, i.e. the taxpayers expense . that's what people are expense. that's what people are really concerned about, because that's where people feel a sense of injustice, that other people are getting something that they are getting something that they are not. >> and that's the point, joe, isn't it? there's a very strong point here that, you know, let's say let's say you've got, you know, a husband or daughter very young. know, a husband or daughter very young . they've got a young kid, young. they've got a young kid, they're on the social housing list . the wait they're on the social housing list. the wait is they're on the social housing list . the wait is 12, 14 months, list. the wait is 12, 14 months, 15 months, whatever it is, if you're lucky, if you're very lucky, and then suddenly you're told really sorry , but it's 18 told really sorry, but it's 18 months now because a lot of people across the english channel are now moving into that social housing. this will make resentment deeper. >> well, yeah, it will only make

it deeper if those people jump the queue. there are many, many people saying, hang on, where are we going to put them on the streets? well at the moment, as far as i understand it, the government is calling on private landlords and has agencies . so landlords and has agencies. so they're looking at places like student accommodation, they're looking at places where there could be hmos , houses of could be hmos, houses of multiple occupation care homes that are no longer in use. there are many different ways of doing it. it has got to be better than plonking hundreds of people in an area where nobody wants them. and can i just suggest that i don't know if yvette cooper has thought about this, but if bibby stockholm is not going to be used for asylum seekers, quite rightly, what about all the rioters going on that while they're the lib dems are in favour of prison ships? >> is that right? >> is that right? >> this lot? yes. >> this lot? yes. >> i promise you ed davey is not going with that. that is absolutely not going to happen. >> you know, maybe then people would understand and have a look at it. >> the other problem is this that there's also the private

rental sector because young people can't afford to buy houses. >> no. and part of that is airbnbs and second homes. >> hang on a second. private rentals have gone up on average, scotland is slightly different, but across england and certainly south wales , private rentals are south wales, private rentals are up roughly 25% since 2021. it's an extraordinary increase. the amount of housing stock available for rents going down again as a result of government policy. if the perception again is that because we're putting tens of thousands of people into private rentals, it's pushing up rents. i just have a feeling i could be wrong, but i have a feeling that operation scatter will be even less popular with the public than booking hotels. well i think that people also are extremely fed up, and i can't imagine there's anybody watching this that doesn't know somebody a son, daughter, nephew , somebody a son, daughter, nephew, granddaughter who can't get on the housing ladder. >> now that is a multifaceted problem. part of it is the lack of building of affordable homes. part of it is the inability and

the stupidity in not transforming town centres and repurposing retail outlets where, you know, the bottom's fallen out of retail, high streets are dying around the country. >> that change is coming. >> that change is coming. >> well, yeah, it will come. >> well, yeah, it will come. >> that change is coming. but do you accept that the population explosion is the main reason we have a shortage of housing and expensive prices , expensive prices, >> part no, i think part of it is no, but it's in parts of the country, nigel. it is much, much w0 i'se. woi'se. >> worse. >> so 10 million london in the south east since tony blair came to power, the population is up by 10,000,085%. >> it's a lack of housing. >> it's a lack of housing. >> 85% of that is directly to down immigration. >> i don't agree with that. i don't believe that we have to build 85% of the 10 million increase is directly to down immigration, nearly all of it legal, by the way. >> yes. since 1997, so nearly 6 million of it since the tories came to power. i mean, i'm just trying to argue logic, but but but if it's legal immigration, then we need those people. >> we need them here for the economy, for businesses, for jobs that we have failed, i think.

>> so, look, i on on the failure to train and on sending far too many people to university to get degrees that aren't vocational. yes, i would agree completely with you . i think mr blair sent with you. i think mr blair sent us down the wrong route. i think we conned a lot of young people into into building up big debts and not helping themselves. i agree with that. with you 100%, but we can't deny the logic that on current immigration numbers, we have to build a new dwelling every two minutes in this country just to cope with that. well and this is what you guys did. >> well, ultimately, there will be a need for new housing in the right places, including particularly in cities. again, i'm sorry to bang on about it, but labour's now reduced the number of homes to be built in london. i'm really sorry. >> i'm just not buying it. >> i'm just not buying it. >> can i just make another point though? which is that in terms of the legal migration, you know, yes, there is , of course, know, yes, there is, of course, the need for some people to come to this country to contribute to our economy, to contribute to our economy, to contribute to our public services. but the big problem, of course, as has now begun to be clocked by countries around the world, is that in the western world we're not having enough children. and so in order

to be able to staff up our pubuc to be able to staff up our public services in to order be able to pay for our future liabilities, our pensions, our benefits, we've either got to have more children or we will need to continue to rely on legal migration and i'd like to see more of the former. we've got to do . and you're beginning got to do. and you're beginning to sound dangerously republican . to sound dangerously republican. >> let's get the women back home. bev wasn't pregnant. >> did i say that? did i say that? i think that came out of what implication? >> what is interesting is both of you say, well, you know, obviously the numbers are quite high, but it's good for the economy. and this has been the argument that's been put, it's good for the economy because it means gdp growth. i think it was really interesting. in the last two years we've had record levels of net migration, 1.5 million legal net migration in the last two years under rishi's premiership. and yet in that period, we had six consecutive quarters of falling gdp per capita. yes. so the country, the country's economy getting bigger, but individually the country getting poorer. you're absolutely right to talk about gdp per capita. >> that is the metric that we

must look at. and that's why immigration needs to be tightened up. so it's driving only that and supporting the pubuc only that and supporting the public services. i think you're right to say that you've got to draw that line. but i come back to the point that the only way that sustainably you grow the economy is to have more children being born in your own country in the first place. it's not going to happen. >> that's going to i'm not sure government policy can really influence that, but we could encourage one of the we could encourage one of the we could encourage it to a tax system, but it's not going to make that bigger. >> but one of the problems is if you can't afford to get a house either to rent or to buy, you're going to put off having. >> which is why operation scatter is going to make it worse. comes back to the beginning, because a moment, in a moment, we're going to debate a moment, we're going to debate a story that has had very little coverage today. but i think it's quite significant. it is pro—palestinian activists storming in to a factory in bristol this morning, smashing the place up using sledgehammers, injuring police forces officers, injuring staff and i understand that the riots, the distress that's causing

around the country is the major news. but i begin to ask, you know, are there elements are there elements now of the pro—palestinian campaign that we need to give much more serious thought to because it seems to me this a form, frankly, industrial terrorism

quite extraordinary story that a palestine action group this morning , using palestine action group this morning, using a prison palestine action group this morning , using a prison van that morning, using a prison van that was marked up ram raided into elbit systems horizon facility. this is an israeli company making arms in this country, which are being exported to israel. they went in, smashed the place up, vandalised it. they injured two police officers with sledgehammers and it was pretty nasty stuff. staff were physically attacked as well and i just begin to think that so much of this palestine action, so much of this free palestine,

so much of this free palestine, so much of this free palestine, so much of this argument for justice actually is heading down a very bad , dangerous and a very bad, dangerous and violent route. joe, a story that i think without the riots perhaps would have been a bigger story. i think it would have done. >> i mean, it was a tiny little bit, and only in the sort of the bigger picture. where was that footage from? was that there footage? >> yeah, that was from a cctv. >> yeah, that was from a cctv. >> cctv, oh, >> yeah, that was from a cctv. >> cctv, 0h, cctv. >> yeah, that was from a cctv. >> cctv, oh, cctv. okay. all right. so it's not the. no, we have to be careful obviously because i understand there have been arrests. >> there've been six arrests. >> there've been six arrests. >> we don't we don't know who they are and we don't know anything else, any charges or anything else, any charges or anything else. >> but are we are we now up against is this sort of free palestine movement now something that's moved again, just completely beyond the law, >> no more than the people who are out tonight chucking bricks at police officers. >> i mean, which is even more worrying that it's happening on a bigger scale across more across more people feel deeply and passionately about what's happening in gaza for the right reasons. >> and on both sides. you know, the attacks on october 7 were absolutely appalling and

atrocious . but what has happened atrocious. but what has happened subsequently and the human suffering to women and children , suffering to women and children, and the way that people have been herded up and shunted and then attacked and then attacked and un agencies attacked, i mean , and un agencies attacked, i mean, well, un agencies actually had some of their staff involved in the atrocities, unrwa in the atrocities and now the labour and now the labour government's going to refund them because which is extraordinary. those people have been sacked, they've been sacked and they were sacked on the spot. but there was the food convoy and that wasn't an accident. that was one truck. after another picked off by idf. do you know what snipers we could argue for on both sides? >> we can argue those things. but randall, this sort of i mean, this is extraordinary behaviour, isn't it? >> yes. and i'm afraid it's part of a trend, which is that if folks are not held to account by the law enforcement authorities, then they become emboldened . and then they become emboldened. and whether that's protests or whether that's protests or whether that's protests or whether that's marches, the marches, the pro—palestinian marches, the pro—palestinian marches, some of the chanting,

well, not only those marches, but i think there is a read across between those marches, these organisations and other organisations like blm. i'm afraid to say that there is a hard left group of people in this country who will sign up for any campaign, i understand it's perfectly reasonable to feel very strongly about these issues.i feel very strongly about these issues. i do too, but again, there is a group of people in this country on the hard left who want to take direct action. well, there are the hard right. >> have we've seen for the last few days for sure. >> well, these are the people we're almost back to where we started. >> there is one difference. the marches that were taking place through london were organised marches and they were organised with the cooperation or with with the cooperation or with with the cooperation or with with the talking to the police. >> but they committed criminal damage just like here. well, and they chanted things that shouldn't have been allowed. >> people were arrested for suella braverman, who was the home secretary at the time, to call them hate marches, was absolutely ridiculous. we've now seen robert jenrick the next wannabe tory. can i be even more right wing than reform saying

that anybody saying allahu akbar should be arrested? >> well, whether that was taken in context. but i tell you what, this leads us on beautifully to a debate on free speech. right? because this is the why. what the farage moment do you remember the counter—disinformation unit set up, as boris said to combat the false coronavirus information onune? false coronavirus information online? but of course, as we know, in the end was used to crack down effectively on people who dissented from agreeing with lockdown. or we should be jabbed repeatedly or whatever it may be. well, it's now been reformed and renamed. the security online information team, so that sounds pretty harmless. and this is there to monitor the protests. there's even talk today that anyone sharing footage of the protests might themselves have committed, you know, an act that's outside the law. i can't see that applying to broadcasters. but hey. and then, of course, into all of that , we of course, into all of that, we have the man who says he is an absolutist for free speech. elon

musk. and we've got to ask ourselves what kind of country we want to live in. is elon musk a force for good or bad in your view? >> absolutely evil. >> absolutely evil. >> evil? >> evil? >> i think he is absolutely evil. i think he is a disgrace . evil. i think he is a disgrace. he's got no responsibility. he doesn't care what goes out on his platform. he is a disrupter. he's quite happy to peddle disinformation, misinformation and hatred, and he's only interested in it because he is playing and using people like puppets. wow. i was at a really interesting, conversation the other day with the former head of mi5, other day with the former head of m15, who now retired, who said, you know, ten years ago we wouldn't have thought about worrying about, you know , worrying about, you know, whether we were going to have fight a land war in europe with tanks and guns and things, which is what's happening in ukraine. we were looking at fighting cyber war and he said, we had already lost that battle. then because the forces that are

using the technology to send out misinformation and disinformation are so agile and so mobile, and half the people who are reacting to them. and if ihear who are reacting to them. and if i hear one more fully grown sentient being, whether they're a tory councillors wife or a want to be labour mp , saying, want to be labour mp, saying, oh, i'm sorry, i didn't mean it, i didn't think , well, think i didn't think, well, think before you hit send , joe. before you hit send, joe. >> i think musk's a hero. oh no, i genuinely do. i think free speech is really important, even if it causes offence. i think this really matters. i think if twitter, as it was then, had been owned by him, the american pubuc been owned by him, the american public would have known the truth about hunter biden's laptop. what say you about musk? and free speech? free speech is a cornerstone of our society, and we are so lucky to live in a country where that is true. >> i mean, there are so many countries around the world who don't have the freedoms that we do. but you know, the left used twitter as much as the right, so, you know, i've had my fair share of abuse on it too. i try

not to spend too much time on twitter. i must say. and i think david cameron had his, choice phrase, which i shan't repeat, about what he thought about twitter. the point is that people will find ways to communicate with one another. that is, a perfectly natural thing. and if twitter is the platform or not is irrelevant. >> well, if it's not there, it'll be somewhere else. exactly well, a lot of passion there on elon musk . in well, a lot of passion there on elon musk. in a moment. let's talk about net zero because apparently the national grid have said in private it could mean total blackouts in the south—east of england by 2028. are we losing our marbles on overrelying on wind and solar

now, i've long been deeply sceptical about renewable energy. not because i'm against it, because i didn't like the extent to which we had to fund it through tax payers. but i worry above all about intermittency and long term about cost. well, a report out and we have heard these before, but this time it's different because this time it comes from national grid executives. in a private briefing warning there'll be blackouts in the south—east by 2028 unless we put in place zonal pricing. and that would mean people in the southeast paying a lot more for their electricity than the rest of the country. now donelan

mccarthy, climate activist, climate media coalition, regular on this program. great enthusiast for renewable energy . enthusiast for renewable energy. intermittency and cost are still problems that we haven't yet overcome in any way, have we? >> we have overcome it now. well, nigel, people, the telegraph has been warning us about blackouts for 15 years. yes, that's true . and 15 and 15 yes, that's true. and 15 and 15 years ago we were at renewables. we were at 2%. they're now at 40% on a good day. no. for the for the last six months, 40% of our energy came from renewables. and the intermittency has been handled by a smarter grid. and what that does two things. it makes it cheaper, and it means we have to build less infrastructure. and what has happenedin infrastructure. and what has happened in the last 15 years is the price of renewables. have they were 15 years ago? you're right. they were expensive. we had to invest in them now and the poor paid for it now. now they are cheaper than than fossil fuels. the international

energy agency, wind and solar are the cheapest forms of energy. and what's happened over the last number of years, we no longer need subsidies for new renewables. and so what i'm saying for, for for, billpayers is that the more we invest in renewables, the cheaper their bills will be. and secondly, as somebody who actually rightly believes in protecting our borders and energy security, moving to renewables removes us from the risk of yet another fossil fuel global oil shock. >> let's let's just make one thing very clear. this is not a daily telegraph story. this is different in the sense that this is. but hang on. but this has come from national grid executives themselves in the daily telegraph and you talk about. yeah, but it's not an editorial story in that sense. you talk about infrastructure. we're looking at vast swathes of suffolk , essex, norfolk, suffolk, essex, norfolk, lincolnshire having the most enormous pylon systems driven through them, and the national grid themselves estimate that to decarbonise the grid could cost in excess of £2 trillion. this is what we're embarked upon here

is what we're embarked upon here is potentially phenomenally expensive. >> it's, well, whatever energy we choose, we will have to build power plants over the next 30 years. we will have to either have build renewables, which are cost upfront costs and no running costs almost, or we build fossil fuel plants with massive running. what about nuclear? what about nuclear? well, as somebody who's always caring about a fossil, sorry, bills for consumers, i don't understand your obsession with nuclear. nuclear is twice as look at what happened with baseload power. look, look what happened to hinkley point. yeah. well it was it was. >> do you know what it was supposed to be built george osborne george osborne is now 45. george osborne made some horrific mistakes. >> don has a huge nuclear roots. don has a huge advocate for this . don has a huge advocate for this. but i still question this intermittency problem. jay. >> well, but the zonal thing makes sense. >> and this is he's absolutely right. this is a telegraph

story. it's written by a telegraph reporter who presumably is the person. it's not denied, it's not denied by executives, but it is. but it is. it's been denied. >> but it is said. >> but it is said. >> but it is said. >> but it is somebody who has had a chat with a telegraph reporter and put a story. >> are you entirely confident of the direction we're going in with renewables? i want more renewables. >> you do? yes, absolutely. and i want every single house. and this should have been done years ago. i mean, nick clegg famously said, oh, there's no point in doing nuclear. it'll be 20 years before we get the benefits. you know, in the coalition government, you know, he did make some mistakes. that was one of them. no every single house should have been equipped with solar panels. every single new build should have double water thing. nigel, you and i were talking before we came on air about that state of the seas. >> by the way. >> by the way. >> all. i've always been an environmentalist. >> i do care about the environment. i do care about habitats. i do care about . habitats. i do care about. >> it's going to cost money at some point. >> but i also care about the fact that our electricity is

amongst the most expensive in the world. i care about the fact we've de—industrialized more quickly as a result of net zero policies than any other comparable western country. one of the things, and we've got damned expensive electricity, but look at what happened to the economy. >> people keep talking about the price of electricity. you're right. the unit price of electricity is more expensive, but the economy has grown 80%. when we cut our carbon emissions by 50%. so we've done exactly what we needed to do. we increased our wealth. well, hang on, and we actually reduce our carbon emissions. >> well, we are going the other thing 1990 on this. >> and we've and we have lost some very important strategic industries like steel because we're uncompetitive. >> we were going to lose those because of the price, price of energy. but the price of labour and the interesting thing, you talked me into the same cost and you talked about the you say as an environmentalist, which is great to hear your support of environmental. i looked up before i came here in here tonight, clacton. i looked at the vulnerability of clacton as a constituency to sea level rise , a constituency to sea level rise, a constituency to sea level rise, a sea which jaywick by the

20305, a sea which jaywick by the 2030s, looking at annual flooding, and we're spending £50 million to protect them. >> we could live in caves in this country and make no difference to this at all. >> no, but actually no difference at all. >> that's interesting. what percentage of global investments does britain represent in new fossil fuels ? fossil fuels? >> minute now 15%. >> minute now 15%. >> and going down rapidly. >> and going down rapidly. >> what 15% is huge. we're only 1% of the world population. >> nigel. everyone you're talking about everyone accepts will be. hang on a second. >> everyone accepts. we will be using oil and gas still in the next couple of decades, so we may as well produce our own. randolph, where do you stand on this? i mean, i mean, you were part of a government that was wildly enthusiastic for net zero policies. >> well, having cleaner air, having more energy security is a good thing, but that only comes from having a mix. and so, yes, build more offshore wind. fine. great. we produce more than any other country in the world bar china. but the idea that we shouldn't be harnessing our own offshore oil and gas is absolutely insane. and that's exactly what the government has

just done by cancelling the licences, cancelling the process that was going to happen under us, in the last parliament. also, it's deeply troubling to hear the suggestion that simply because someone might live in a certain part of the country, they're going to have to pay more for their electricity. this is absolutely absurd. it's wholly unfair on a lot of things, for a lot of things that were southeast are rather expensive already. >> pay more for your house. >> pay more for your house. >> the interesting things about this actually , i hopefully we're this actually, i hopefully we're all agreed zoning. sorry, this this regional pricing would be mad. we've already had regional pricing with the privatisation of the water industry. so some people paying the water bills pay people paying the water bills pay £100 and other people are clobbered with £600. that's mad. and the other thing about it, what's really interesting about investment in renewables is that it's part of levelling up. if we have zoning that london pays higher prices, all the renewables will be built in the south east. that's a disaster. what needs to be built in the north and northwest? those jobs, and we could level up with lots of oil and gas jobs in scotland and north—east of england .

and north—east of england. >> belem debate there. we will come back to renewables. >> gives years to come, but following on from me, jacob is not around today. but we're going to have chris hope our political editor is doing state of the nation. what have you got for us tonight, christopher? >> naga, we've got, nick thomas—symonds, who's a cabinet office minister, giving us the government's response to its approach towards the riots. we asked him about two tier policing. is the far right to blame all the questions that our viewers want to hear the answers to, and also rupert matthews, he's the policing and crime commissioner for leicestershire. we also hear from andy. no, and he's the individual, the brit who's been subtweeted by elon musk over the past few days . musk over the past few days. what's it like being in musk's, target and a very, very good panel? >> we've had a heated debate about elon musk, a heated debate about elon musk, a heated debate about everything, actually. but tell you what, let's have a look at the weather. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news

>> evening. welcome to your latest weather update from the met office here on gb news. tomorrow is going to feel pretty warm and humid and after a dry start for many it's going to turn dull with quite a few of us seeing outbreaks of rain and drizzle. not from this area of low pressure, but actually from this rather innocuous looking set of weather fronts. the low to the north, though, is still providing some hefty showers across northern scotland. still pretty gusty here as well. a blustery night across the far north. elsewhere, the winds are easing . there'll be some clearer easing. there'll be some clearer spells, a few showers across northern england, but they're tending to fade and then we'll see the cloud, rain and drizzle spilling into south wales and southwest england later in the night. quite a warm night here elsewhere, with some clearer skies temperatures, certainly rural spots could dip to down single figures, so for many it is a bright start to thursday. there'll be some sunshine around , there'll be some sunshine around, still quite gusty across the far north of scotland with a few showers, but for much of scotland looking drier tomorrow with some decent spells of

sunshine , we'll cloud over sunshine, we'll cloud over across the southwest as the cloud and rain spills into northwest england and parts of the south of northern ireland. a very different day for wales and southwest england tomorrow. a lot of cloud, rain and drizzle on and off for much of the day, particularly over hills and around the coast, whereas the midlands and eastern england, after a dry fine start, will just steadily cloud over rain trickling into parts of the midlands, spreading across more northern parts of england. some heavier bursts of rain possible later in the day. not much rain for east anglia in the south—east, just turning cloudy here and the far north—east of scotland also mostly dry temperatures 1920, maybe a little higher in the south—east. it is going to feel really quite warm and humid. however, the rain and drizzle will be still across the south early on friday, but it should scoot away . friday, but it should scoot away. showers in the northwest. but for many, friday's set fair a much brighter day for wales and southwest england for sure, with some good spells of sunshine and a fresher feel. showery rain on saturday and it is likely to hot up again as we go through the

weekend . weekend. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar, sponsors of weather on gb news