is and whether the labour party is on the right track to encourage more investment. mel stride the underdog in the tory leadership race, will be here in the studio to outline why he believes he is the right person to take on the big job in opposition. former met chief detective superintendent kevin hurley will be here with his perspective on this week's disorder, and former prison governor steve fryer and val wasowski are co—founders of tempest nouveau, and they'll be here to weigh in with their first hand experience of how prisons should really work. we've once again got 90 minutes of punchy politics lined up for you this morning, so do not think of going anywhere . think of going anywhere. what? to go through the papers this morning. i'm delighted to be joined now by political correspondent at the spectator . correspondent at the spectator. james heale james, lovely to see you on this sunny sunday. so let's discuss the aftermath of

the riots. sunday times has published a piece by rod liddle, who's from middlesbrough. i just found this a compelling read because he's trying to look at the reasons why this happened, and he puts a lot of it down to football hooliganism. and i think there are some thuggish groups that have been coordinated. some of this action he talks about the issue of two tier policing, but he also says that a lot of people in his town where he grew up, feel ignored. they feel left behind and they feel resentful. i mean, it's an explanation. it's not a justification for violence, but it's an explanation. james. >> yeah, i mean, after a week of unrest and now with order restored , thankfully it's almost restored, thankfully it's almost now the sort of trickier task of kind of working out what are the reasons for this unrest, these riots, these disturbances, and those are much more thorny and difficult questions . difficult questions. interestingly, of course, you say rod liddle has been sent by the to sunday times middlesbrough. elsewhere, the observer has also sent a journalist there and they both come up with different pieces and different responses, which the observer saying what? >> it's all the tories fault. >> it's all the tories fault. >> really much more of that. yes. and so i think that these are very difficult, complex

questions. i mean, of course, in the observer, their headline is people just like rioting. and i mean, to a certain extent, you think every 10 to 15 years we do have riots for different reasons, etc. the key thing, of course, is the nature of those do change each time. i'm really struck in rod liddle's report as well by the fact that middlesbrough has 1 well by the fact that middlesbrough has1 in well by the fact that middlesbrough has 1 in 200 residents. there is a resettled asylum seeker, so that's the highest amount in any kind of area in the uk. and that is perhaps one potentially exacerbating factor because, as he points out, this is an area with traditionally high irish immigration into the area, and that's why they've got a big, fantastic local catholic church there. so i think these are really kind of interesting questions, and we're only just getting to grips now with kind of why the riots swept britain and why they affected some of the most deprived areas in the country as well, >> also, there's this idea that although we're getting swift justice, is keir starmer actually grasping the nettle when it comes to giving us solutions to the problems of the lack of integration in some of these communities, particularly in the north? >> yeah, i mean, i think that's what you're going to really struggle with. i mean, he is obviously former director of pubuc obviously former director of public prosecutions. he's someone who's a process man. in someone who's a process man. in

some ways, that is the easy bit to call for people to be locked up.and to call for people to be locked up. and of course, as the observer report notes, the verdicts we've had so far are the ones where people plead guilty quickly. so they're the easiest ones to process. you get them through the much more thornier ones when it comes down to identification, whether they're pleading not guilty or whatever, that will take much longer. and then, of course, there is the issues around sort of a much bigger justice of a much biggerjustice backlog. so i think that these are really difficult ones. and i think the biggest criticism i've heard from about keir starmer, which rings most true, is the kind of failure of political imagination. he's good at responding to events. he's good as a kind of tactician and a strategist, but actually kind of coming up with a big vision and sort of uniting the country behind that. that will be a much more difficult challenge. and the one he's going to grasp with over the next five years. >> also, i think it's interesting to read this story interesting to read this story in the sunday telegraph suggesting that angela rayner, the deputy prime minister, wants to lift restrictions on social housing for migrants. so just to explain this, the tories had suggested that the priority for social housing should go to people with british citizenship and that migrants should basically be put further down the list. now, rayner is saying that that should be reversed,

but isn't it those sorts of policies that create some of this division in communities? >> i'd say so , certainly. >> i'd say so, certainly. i think this was about a change to government planning to introduce michael gove, introduced this idea in january of a uk connection test. so either, as you say, a british citizen or someone who'd been here for at least ten years, and then this was obviously going to be, you know, addressed the unfairness that someone arrives here shouldn't be able to claim housing straight away . and yet, housing straight away. and yet, within a couple of weeks, coming to office, angela rayner, who now is in charge of that local government department, has decided to lift that cap. and looking at the response in the paper which the department has given to the paper , the sunday given to the paper, the sunday telegraph, it only says that, oh, well, 90% of housing does go to people who've been here ten years or more. british residents, i think. well, that doesn't address the fundamental unfairness, which is that people feel as though there's one rule for them or one rule for someone else. so i think that these are the kind of things that do feed those grievances. i'm interested in the sunday times. there's a line that says that morgan mcsweeney, who, of course, is the great political thinker, the strategist, the dominic cummings behind keir starmer, on to him in a minute. >> and his tensions with sue

gray >> so, yes, i mean, there's a line that he wants to be tough on, tough on populism and tough on, tough on populism and tough on the causes of populism and borrow from the blair line, i don't get this whole, criticism of populism. >> i mean, the thing about populism is it is quite popular with the electorate. you know, things like social housing for people with british citizenship ahead of those who may have arrived here by dubious means. i mean, it's a pretty successful policy for whoever tables it. what surprises me about angela raynerisif what surprises me about angela rayner is if there's anyone in that cabinet that could stand up for the so—called left behind again, this is not a justification of any of the violence that's taken place. but if we have people who are white, working class who feel that they are left behind, ignored , are left behind, ignored, forgotten and not heard, who better in that cabinet than angela rayner to appeal to them and yet she's been silent on all this. absolutely. >> and i think that you've got to remember, of course, 2019, when all these red wall areas abandoned labour in droves. i think reform came second in 90 of these seats. so i think they've got to be careful for that next time around. >> very much so. fears of tax rises as the chancellor is poised to boost the living wage

by 4% in her first budget, according to the sunday telegraph. and we're also looking at a story in the sunday express, which suggests that hiking death tax will send family businesses to the wall. so this is a suggestion that she is going to increase inheritance tax. i mean, we know who they aren't going to tax, james. they've said very clearly not going to tax working people. so no increase to national insurance or indeed income tax or vat . however, she's got to or vat. however, she's got to have to find the money somewhere to give more pay rises because they've already agreed to public sector pay rises. i think going up to 5.2% or by 5.2. and now this idea of boosting the living wage by 4%, which is brilliant. it sounds great if you're all for the worker comrades, not that great if you're running a small business. >> no, it isn't, of course. and you've also got to consider the wider economy as well, which is obviously, if you're in the pubuc obviously, if you're in the public sector trade union, that's fantastic. but of course, it means that if you want to get more money, bang for your buck from public services, it's great. obviously you're paying the money for the staff, but

equally about what are the returns you're going to see on the investment, the more money that's put into public services, the concern is people are getting less and less in terms of what the nhs is delivering for them, what the different pubuc for them, what the different public services, what schools are delivering for them. so i think that there's a real concern about this. and as you say, how are you going to pay for this as well, coming at a time, of course, of inflation possibly going up again by the end of the year, which is a really big difference. i think you know, we can talk about rishi sunak's government, rishi sunak's government overwhelming priority was on inflation. it was a voteless recovery. we got inflation down from 11% down to 2%. and yet the danger is under labour with these pay rises, which are very generous. of course they could actually help fuel that going up. >> but labour not see pay rises as inflationary. they just see them as an overwhelmingly good thing because it's all for the worker. but is there any consideration for the consequences, not least for small and medium sized businesses who, let's be honest, have had a terrible time during covid? they've had 6% shaved off their profit margins with the increase corporation tax. so increase to corporation tax. so if the public realise, if do the public realise, i suppose, james, that if wages go up , if somebody's working in up, if somebody's working in your local cafe is suddenly put on 12 or £13 an hour, that the cost of a coffee is going to go from £3 to £5, i hope so, i

think it's incumbent on people to make that argument and point that out, and that offering free money is not the sort of panacea to people's problems. >> and it's incumbent. i think that's why the conservatives need to make it, making that argument and raising those kind of points, because the danger is obviously otherwise. the labour get a free hit, and they seem to be sort of these magnificent people giving out, you know, giving away all this cash to the workers. >> but it's the people that employ the workers that make the wealth. you could argue. do you know what john redwood is coming in thatcher's former economic adviser to make that argument will go through all of that in just a moment. after the paper review. susan charge, mail on sunday front page. love this by glenn owen, the political editor. security chiefs are saying that the pm is being kept in the dark by his aide, sue gray we're all familiar with sue gray because of her work on partygate. she's now keir starmer's chief of staff, but it seems as if she might be throwing her weight around. we've seen this before, james. what is it with people needing to be close to the prime minister apparently she's been moving morgan mcsweeney's desk around, so he's not close and she's close. everybody fighting

for keir starmer's ear. it was ever thus. >> twas ever thus. and keir starmer came in his first speech out to number 10. we'll have a politics that treads a little less lightly on your life. i remain that remains to be seen, or shall we say, because i think, as ever, with downing street, there's all these rows going on and everyone's jockeying for influence right now. some of this twas ever thus. but the interesting thing with sue gray, of course, is that she was the ultimate machine career servant, civil servant. she knew the entirety of whitehall inside and out. and so it was a fascinating decision by keir starmer to take her into government. and the danger is, of course, according to these reports, is that perhaps she knows how to outwit the prime minister a bit like , you know, minister a bit like, you know, jess, there's yes, sir humphrey and all the rest of it. >> there's this idea. there's a quote in the piece. yes, she's the one really running the country. is she, though? and what about simon case? there's tension there with the cabinet secretary. well, this is the whole historic beef that comes up, which is that, according to reports, simon case, the cabinet secretary, blocked her from being the permanent secretary at the department for business. >> as a result of that, she then became chief of staff to the labour party leader keir starmer. now keir starmer has become prime minister. you know, it looks as though simon case is

not going to be with us in a few months time, according to various reports, and there'll be a new cabinet secretary and of course, that's the real crux, i think, of this story, which is that who will be the top civil servant in britain? i suspect the hand of sue gray will certainly be involved in some capacity. >> we can be sure of that. and then let's finish, because the olympics are coming to a close. it's been a thoroughly brilliant couple of weeks and actually a welcome distraction is sort of the best of british on display in paris and the worst on display in writing here. yes, it's very, very, very much roles reversed. yeah. we've been behaving like the french, but this wonderful story about georgia bell, we know her dad because we work with andy bell, who's the political editor of channel five. lovely lovely chap. but what's amazing about georgia bell winning this bronze medal in the 1500 is she basically was working in cybertech. she had been a youth runner and very successful as a teenager, plagued by injury. runner and very successful as a teenager, plagued by injury . she teenager, plagued by injury. she does a park run, she turns in this . amazing. have you ever this. amazing. have you ever done a park run, james? >> i know i haven't. >> i know i haven't. >> well, i tell you what to do. a park run in 16 minutes, which

is what she cleared that five k in. i think i can just about manage to scrape just under 30 minutes. so that's how good she is. and now she's a medallist and she's 30 years old. and it's just a wonderful story. >> it's a wonderful story if you watch the races. well obviously she was in fourth for most of it and came up and just amazing last burst over the line. and i was so delighted for her and her family as well. and, you know, i think last time she was watching the olympics at home and during tokyo and covid and as you say, decided to start running again and picked it up. and at the age of 30 to do that is phenomenal result. and i'm so happy for her and her father as well. >> if she can move up the podium in four years time at the age of 34, we shall be in awe of her. absolutely. james, thanks so much. you're going to stay around because we're going to have a interview that olivia utley is doing with the business secretary, jonathan reynolds, and then you and john redwood are going to analyse that a little later. but for now, thank you very much indeed. and as i say, coming up next, it is sir john redwood. he's the man who advised thatcher on the economy. he's got some very interesting insight into rishi sunak calling that early election and whether it was a good idea. so stay tuned for that

welcome back to gb news. you're watching the camilla tominey auto show now. i'm delighted to be joined by sir john auto show now. i'm delighted to be joined by sirjohn redwood, who stood down at the last election, having been the conservative mp for wokingham since 1987. john, let's just start with that, because you were going to stand and then you felt that the early election call was a mistake and that you might lose . just tell. i mean, might lose. just tell. i mean, what happened? why do you think rishi sunak decided to do this? because nadine dorries is apparently writing a book about all this, and maybe he had second thoughts at the last minute. it's been reported today, but he had already told the king, but it seemed nuts from an economic perspective, because the green shoots of recovery were starting to show. yeah, i didn't think i was necessarily going to lose. >> i thought the conservative party, as a whole was going to

go down to a tragically big defeat, and that proved to be right. and then the campaign made it even more likely that we would do worse than the original polling original polling showed wokingham was just about winnable . no, my decision was winnable. no, my decision was that i'd been working. i thought closely with hunt, sunak and their advisers on general economic policy, and i thought if we left it until november, december , things were going to december, things were going to look a lot better. we could have had some mortgage rate cuts. even the bank of england got round to cutting interest rates as soon as the election was oven as soon as the election was over, and there could be more to come. i thought that we could do a much quickerjob on getting pubuc a much quickerjob on getting public sector productivity back up to 2019 levels, which would have freed about 20 billion of extra money for tax cuts, which would have been very helpful. i wanted another so—called fiscal event or budget in september, october, and yes , had put october, and yes, had put forward a series of tax cuts that had been targeted on self—employed small businesses , self—employed small businesses, on cost of goods and so forth. and if you had another six months of actual real incomes rising because real incomes had

started to rise just before the election, i thought that was all a better background, where we'd have limited the damage. yeah. and i was working away with been vindicated in these feelings. so when they just said no. so i had to make a very quick decision. i can't defend this. i can't defend the decision to go early. i can't defend where we are at the moment. you couldn't do it with words. you had to do it with words. you had to do it with deeds. we needed another six months, for example, to show that we were getting legal migration under control. it was another thing i and a few others had persuaded the government to do. they eventually got around to it in january. if we'd had a whole year of showing the numbers coming down, people would have been reassured. >> but take us inside. some of these conversations because there's you talking political sense. you're representing the electorate's desires. this is what conservatives are asking for . can we what conservatives are asking for. can we bring down legal migration? can we please have incentives for businesses to thrive .7 can we please be taxed thrive? can we please be taxed less? could we be more productive so that our public services work better for us? you go in and say this to the likes

of sunak and hunt and what they're nodding, saying we agree, but we can't implement it because officials in the background are saying no, no, ho. [10. >> no. >> well, sometimes they agreed. i mean, as with the legal migration, they did actually put in some very sensible measures in some very sensible measures in january, but they didn't hang around to see the benefits. labour can now claim some credit because the numbers have started to fall still too high. but coming in the right direction on something like the bank of england, where they are wilfully selling bonds at huge losses that they needn't be doing, they didn't want to intervene with the bank of england. well, that was always a joint policy. chancellors signed off on the buying and selling of bonds that was part of the deal, and the bank of england made it very clear that they were acting as agents of the treasury. and we, the taxpayer, are paying for those losses. so i was scandalised that i couldn't persuade the prime minister and the chancellor to say to the governor, look, the ecb is not doing this. the federal reserve board is not doing this, though they have the same problems as they have the same problems as the bank of england. so why on earth is britain having to charge its taxpayers billions of

pounds every year for selling bonds? you needn't sell at a loss. >> no. well, this is the i mean, it's quite granular. this and i'm practically functionally innumerate. so i struggle to understand anything economic, but i think i get the basis of what you're saying is that the bank of england is selling bonds at a loss and actually costing us money, and yet there seems to be no accountability by the bank of england for doing this. as you say, other central banks aren't doing it. so what's happened here, john, is the bank of england out of control, is it? it's now setting fiscal policy. independence has spiralled beyond what was originally intended by gordon brown. what's happened? >> yes, indeed, because i wasn't a critic of their independent right to set the short term interest rate and to do what they do through the monetary policy committee. but that was the limit of their independence. and when brown and co wanted to print a load of money and buy a load of bonds because of the collapse, they engineered in 0809, the bank very sensibly

said that this is too hot for us to handle, and we're going to send it all through to you. and we need a chancellor's signature on this. and parliament could have opened that decision up for comment if they wished to. so that continued. so all of the money printed over covid was signed off by the government, and i was critical of the latter stages of that. i agreed with the first 300 billion, which was a colossal sum of money because they were collapsing the economy. the next 150 billion was in the recovery period. i always thought that was inflationary. yes. and yet they still did it, >> but because what you're saying i interviewed liz truss recently and she is resentful about the idea of her mini—budget crashing the economy says the figures don't suggest it did crash it. and actually, andrew bailey , the governor of andrew bailey, the governor of the bank of england and the bank of england, didn't they weren't honest with her about this lady's problem . so, i mean, is lady's problem. so, i mean, is there a finger to be blamed, a finger of blame to be pointed at andrew bailey and co? seems to me that the bank of england is

has extended its, its reach far beyond its original remit and isn't performing particularly well for the british taxpayer. is that a fair analysis? >> well, indeed. i mean the bank of england itself has recently come out with some analysis saying the bulk of the interest rate rises that occurred are were the result of the ldi crisis and their actions in raising rates. they they wanted interest rates higher that was why they went up. and it wasn't just in britain, because the federal reserve board was doing exactly the same thing in america. so you had bond prices falling and interest rates going up universally, there's an argument about whether the truss budget caused a extreme version of that. i mean, i think the truss budget was ill judged. the spending was far too high. i couldn't understand why they were subsidising you or my energy bill. we didn't need that and we couldn't afford it. but that wasn't the main problem. and as you rightly say, the my main problem was the bank of england had lost control of the pension fund investments in bonds, including their own. they had a huge position in these very damaging funds that were

highly leveraged. and so i think that's probably why they reversed policy. and they showed that as soon as they reverse policy, the market stabilised. so it was mainly the bank of england that destabilised the market. and they they knew how to stabilise it. the other thing that people forget is that interest rates went higher a year later, after stabilisation, than they were during the liz truss period. >> but as a unashamed sort of thatcherite, how do you feel about this idea that the tories have squandered their reputation for economic competence? i mean, you now look at yougov polling, for instance, it says that labouris for instance, it says that labour is more fiscally disciplined than the conservatives. that must depress you as a lifelong conservative. >> well, it annoys me because i was trying to get them not to be fiscally irresponsible. i mean, going right back to covid, where l, going right back to covid, where i, an led by mark harper, led the charge to lock down less and to lock down for a shorter time penod to lock down for a shorter time period because it was just unaffordable. it was crazy. and that was the main cause of all those problems that led to the

over excessive money printing and the inflation which we got, which has damaged the reputation. i fear that labour are not going to be fiscally cautious in the way they advertise , because they've advertise, because they've already put out a very big unfunded set of pay rises for the public sector with no matching productivity. now, i would like a better of the effect. you know, i'd want a better paid public sector, but it has to be earned. and there are lots of productivity changes that could be made that would justify all that. well, my worry is that far from turning us into the fastest growing economy of the fastest growing economy of the g7, a great aim which i fully support. they'll do the opposite because practically every measure they've announced or heralded so far is anti—growth. yes, and they they are going to make it much more expensive to have energy in britain. they are going to close down our car industry, making petrol and diesels more quickly than the previous government was. they're going to carry on with the policy of taking us out of basic steel making, they don't seem to be very energetic in promoting more home grown

food. all the things you could be doing to grow the economy sector by sector, they're doing the opposite. >> and what effect is well, we read this this morning that they're not going to be actively encouraging civil servants and others to be working from the office. apparently the home office is struggling to get employees to work in the home office in person for more than two days a week. do you think that has an effect? i know jacob rees—mogg did a lot of work in this area . this area. >> well, i think it can do, but when i work at home quite a lot, so i don't rule it out, but it needs properly managing and i think there are more occasions when people need to be in an office talking to colleagues and being mentored by seniors and understanding from their managers directly. it's much more difficult doing it on video link. so yes, i think you need strong managers in those departments who carry their staff with them and get the balance right. and i think probably the balance isn't right at the moment. >> can we just move you on to the tory leadership race? what do you make of it? is it too long? it's a marathon, not a sprint. we don't get the results from the membership vote on the

final two in thing until i think it's november the 2nd or third. i'm not critical of that. >> i think there's an argument for it being longer because i think the members need to be engaged because there's a great danger that the members are going to drift off. we've lost a lot of members already because of bad policy in the last few years. a lot of members didn't like the immigration policy. they didn't like the economic and tax policy . so they didn't like the economic and tax policy. so i think you need to woo the members back. so i think engaging them very fully in the way this does is an extremely good idea. and i think those who are contesting it and the rather lot contesting it at the rather lot contesting it at the moment, who stayed in the government throughout and never gave any indication that they thought something was wrong, have got a lot of work to do to persuade people because they were taking the ship down. >> does that mean that you might be backing robert jenrick because he did resign over immigration policy? >> i'm not making any statement about who i'm supporting at the moment. i want to let them all have a chance to set out their policy positions. i'm a fair minded man and i'm just a member with a vote. and at the moment,

what matters is what the mps are going to do, because of course, they have the crucial votes to whittle it down to four and two, but i hope they will do so in conjunction with their members. those members who remain because we feel we have a right to a say as well. but no, i will want them to set out a better programme, but i want them to be much more explicit about why it went wrong and why they didn't do anything about it. >> john, we'll hear more from you in just a moment, because we're going to get an interview with jonathan reynolds, the business secretary, and john and james heale are going to react to it. so don't go anywhere. stay tuned for that. we'll be back in

welcome back. much more to come. in the next hour, i'm going to be joined by the tory leadership candidate, mel stride. but first, here's the news with sophia wenzler judith first, here's the news with

sophia wenzlerjudith raanan . sophia wenzler judith raanan. >> camilla thank you. good morning. it's 10:00. >> camilla thank you. good morning. it's10:00. i'm sophia wenzler in the gb newsroom . the wenzler in the gb newsroom. the justice secretary has warned that the impact of the riots seen across the uk could be felt for months and years to come. shabana mahmood made the remarks in a piece in the observer, as she counts as the courts have been working to extend the hours to deal with rioters. it comes as counter—demonstrations, in london yesterday turned heated as 2000 protesters gathered outside reform hq, where gb news reporter charlie peters and his cameraman were targeted . to cameraman were targeted. to speak. cameraman were targeted. to speak . that's that's me. speak. that's that's me. >> that's that's me, i will he's touching me right now. >> filming, filming, filming. >> filming, filming, filming. >> my job is your safety. no, no, no. >> yes. thank you. is that your.

>> yes. thank you. is that your. >> meanwhile, hundreds of people involved in the riots are now set to appear in courts as a top prosecutor has warned that they could face ten years in prison business and trade secretary jonathan reynolds says the government is prepared. >> yes, there is sufficient capacity in the prison system because of decisions that were made in the early days of the new government. we have seen, i think, 780 arrests, 350 people charged already, and there will be more to come, and it will be the case that people will face the case that people will face the full force of the law. i think it's important that the pubuc think it's important that the public see not just a judicial system that's working well, but effective public services again in britain . in britain. >> meanwhile, sir keir starmer has suggested the government will review our social media laws in the wake of the riots, saying they need to look more broadly at the sector. sir keir warned that social media is not a law free zone, as more sentences for online offences unked sentences for online offences linked to the riots are expected. it comes as the

education secretary says children will be taught how to spot extremist content and fake news online. bridget phillipson said she's launching a review of the curriculum in both primary and secondary schools to arm children against putrid conspiracy theories. in other news, president zelenskyy has for the first time acknowledged that ukraine is conducting a military offensive inside russia's western kursk region. the surprise operation, which began five days ago, has taken russia by surprise and prompted mass evacuations across both sides of the border , russia's sides of the border, russia's defence ministry has said. air defence ministry has said. air defence units destroyed 14 drones and four ballistic missiles over the region. this morning. it comes 900 days after the war in ukraine began, and marks a major development in the conflict between both nations military analyst sean bell says there are three main reasons for ukraine's offensive trains got very long border with russia. >> undoubtedly it will put

russia on the back foot. secondly is to demonstrate that russia is not in control in this conflict at the moment that actually there is a there are two sides here and thirdly, just imagine the morale for ukrainian fighters that are actually starting to take the fight into russia now, many i spoke to a ukrainian, the other day who said they wanted to see a ukrainian flag planted in moscow and back in the uk, the housing secretary has dropped conservative plans to prevent recently arrived migrants from applying for a council house in england. >> the previous government had planned to introduce a uk connection test, which would have restricted social housing to those who had been resident for at least ten years. but angela rayner has scrapped the plan and vowed to ramp up the provision of new social homes as part of a wider planning reforms to boost house building. it comes as almost 1.3 million households are on the local authority waiting list for social housing in the us, donald trump's campaign has said some

of its internal communications have been hacked , and suggested have been hacked, and suggested it was targeted by iranian operatives. it comes after us news website politico reported that it had been emailed campaign documents, including internal research, carried out on trump's running mate jd vance, a campaign spokesperson said these documents were obtained illegally from foreign sources hostile to the united states, intended to interfere with the 2024 election. the algerian boxer, at the centre of a gender row at the paris olympics, has filed a legal complaint saying she's been a victim of online harassment. amani khalife, who won the gold medal in the women's welterweight category at friday against china's liu yang she had faced backlash before the fight after failing a gender test at the 2023 women's world championships on saturday, the gold winning boxer said. all thatis gold winning boxer said. all that is being said about me on social media is immoral and i want to change the minds of

people around the world. those are the latest gb news headlines for now, i'm sophia wenzler more in half an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . slash alerts. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lots more still to come. in just a minute. we're going to hear from the secretary of state for trade, jonathan reynolds. james heale. and sir john redwood will be here to analyse what he has had to say. i'll also be joined by former work and pensions secretary mel stride, who would like to replace rishi sunak as the next conservative leader. can stride reunite the right and i'll be joined by former met detective chief superintendent kevin hurley to ask him what he makes of the government and the police's handling of the riots, and two former prison governors

with 60 years of experience between them in the criminal justice system, will be here to comment on the riots and indeed the prisons crisis. well, earlier on today, the business and trade secretary, jonathan reynolds, spoke to gb news and this is what he had to say. >> well, you've seen an incredibly swift and publicly visible response from the new government to the disorder that we have seen. i think that is important, and i think it is necessary. yes, there is sufficient capacity in the prison system because of decisions that were made in the early days of the new government. we have seen, i think, 780 arrests, 350 people charged already, and there will be more to come, and it will be the case that people will face the case that people will face the full force of the law. and i think it's important that the pubuc think it's important that the public see not just a judicial system that's working well, but effective public services again in britain. >> can you guarantee that rioters won't be released early under the overcrowding release scheme? >> i understand that they won't be, but because of those difficult decisions that were made by new ministers in the new government, to make sure there is sufficient capacity moving on from the disastrous state that

we inherited, it's because of those decisions. there is capacity in the system to deal with this disorder. >> what's been the extent of the impact on small businesses? is there any estimate, an estimate on the total cost of the disorder for businesses and police, courts, etc? >> it's very significant. i've been, for instance, in liverpool on friday talking to a small business owner affected . you'll business owner affected. you'll understand that because of the position they're in, even getting back open has been a burden for them, and therefore we're probably not in a position at this stage to be able to assess the scale of the loss. we want to make sure the recovery is as swift and effective as the response has been. so that is, first of all, working with the association of british insurers to make sure claims are paid promptly. and then where businesses are underinsured or they're not insured, making sure they're not insured, making sure they're aware there is still potentially some of them under the terms of the right compensation act. a lot of people not aware of that, but making sure, first of all, the small businesses are getting the support that they need, but also that the message goes out that if the public care about these businesses recognise this idea, they're at the heart of local

communities. the public needs to get out there and support them. and that's my message to them as well. today, if you care about these brilliant local businesses that are at the heart of your community, please give them your support in the days and weeks ahead. >> that was jonathan reynolds, the business secretary. there john redwood, what do you make of the government's handling of these riots in keir starmer? obviously trying to be tough on law and order, but not having really addressed some of the causes for this unrest? >> well, i think the government was right to see that this was wicked criminal damage and that there needed to be a strong response . and i understand why response. and i understand why they didn't want to muddle that with, with other issues. but obviously going forward, assuming they're now on top of this , we need to go back to a this, we need to go back to a rational conversation about how how you have growth in the economy, how you have more settled communities and so forth. >> do you think it's been largely about immigration, or are there other cost of living factors in consideration here? is it that some white working class people, particularly in

northern towns, feel left behind, do you think? >> well, i don't know, because i don't know these people who've been committing these offences and they are criminals. and the government's right to treat them as criminals. there's no excuse for throwing things at shops or looting or whatever . but if we looting or whatever. but if we want to have a conversation about what do you do to have a proper growth strategy, i think that would be a very important part of the answer to the more general economic and political problems we face, and we were just hearing from the business secretary there saying, well, there's some help for small businesses that have been at the centre of this storm and particularly damaged, but the whole small business community needs a lift. yes. how do you get growth? how do you get better paid jobs? how do you get better paid jobs? how do you get better service to the local community? you need a bigger population of self—employed and small businesses. we've had a big reduction in self—employed in recent years because the tax changes and because of the covid closures and lockdowns, and i think we need to grow the self—employed sector again. i think that requires favourable tax change, and i think the

small businesses are restrained by the vat threshold being too low, and so they get to a certain point and they don't grow any any further . and we grow any any further. and we need to deal with that. and i don't see that from this government. and we hear the business secretary just talking about defensive things. i want him to be optimistic about self—employed and small business. and he's not being that james. >> i mean, if it turns out that some of these rioters that have been swiftly dealt with end up being released early under labour's own early prisoner release scheme, would be a bit of an embarrassment politically, won't it? >> it will be there. i mean, i noticed, of course, that when he was asked the question, the business secretary very quickly changed tack and moved elsewhere. so i think we need to see some more detail about that in the coming weeks or so, particularly when parliament comes back. i suspect that it will be that they won't get released early, because i think there'll be some political pressure and such in the system that to ensure that won't happen. but i was struck by that. i was also struck by the line about, you know, the fact they don't have a figure yet for how much this is going to cost. the state, which we really interesting. there's a story today in the independent, which shows that to think the government is now facing 47 billion in historic costs to do

with things like tainted blood, for instance. so you can imagine all these different things, all these pressures. you know, i suspect these riots will cost a couple of billion added on to the bill. and that means all the millions that get spent on this don't get spent on, for instance, tax changes, things like small business relief, etc. so i think that's going to be something to watch out for in the coming months or so. the other thing we heard of, just in the news bulletin before by sophia was this idea that bridget phillipson has introduced into the national curriculum some sort of lesson for children on discerning between real news and fake news. >> and we're both journalists in the right wing media. you're at the right wing media. you're at the spectator, i'm here at the telegraph. i mean, obviously the importance of proper journalism trumping sort of this sort of amateur reportage that seems to pubush amateur reportage that seems to publish with impunity , doesn't publish with impunity, doesn't have any sort of credence, but shares information and misinformation too quickly. no legal checks or balances. is this a good thing, do you think, for schools? >> no, i don't think so, because i think that the thing is actually labour have got this all mixed up, which is actually you need critical thinking and therefore you therefore produce therefore you therefore produce the right outcomes. having people who are independent thinkers able to kind of analyse what they're being told to about

the provenance, that's the way to approach this. i think they've got this the wrong way around, which is they want to come to it. they want to have these model people, but it's actually only the thinking through and the kind of interrogation of sourcing is what actually produces this. and my concern is the teachers, of course, who've now got to talk to teach the academic curriculum as well as things like things like, you know, sexual harassment. andrew tate lessons, for instance. we've had discussion. it's great to prescribe all these things, but i worry for the teachers on the ground who are going to have to teach all these things through really quick word on that, john. >> well, i think good teaching and critical faculties is absolutely crucial. but what i'm worried about is the idea that they might want to legislate against so—called fake news, and one person's fake news is another person's belief. and governments are pretty good at sending out fake news, and they might fall foul of their own law if they're if they're particularly clumsy. surely the best thing is good, honest democratic debate so that we can challenge each other where where we disagree and transparency by the public authorities so they pubush the public authorities so they publish accurate data, and we can then all get on with interpreting it. what i don't want is a single official agreed line on everything, and everybody who deviates is then

some kind of rogue that would not agree with me. >> then you're wrong. >> then you're wrong. >> that would be dreadful. >> that would be dreadful. >> not the approach we want necessarily in our education system . james necessarily in our education system .james heale john system. james heale john redwood, thanks so much for joining me this morning. it's lovely to speak to you both. thank you. well, coming up next, we're going to be speaking to mel stride. he might be the rank outsider in the leadership race, but what has he got to say about reuniting the conservative party? i'll be back in

welcome back. as you know, gb news and in particular this show are doing a leadership series where we're trying to interview each of the six candidates ahead of them being narrowed down to two by november. and the last week we had robert jenrick, and this week we've got mel stride, the mp for central devon, in the studio with us. lovely to see you , mel. you've had a busy time you, mel. you've had a busy time going around the country

visiting conservative associations and telling people that you're not the underdog or you're an underdog that has got a bite , i think. well, absolutely. >> look, david cameron, who had that famous victory in 2005, was 25 to 1 with the bookies one week before the conference at which he gave that speech and swept all before him. this is a long race and i'm coming up the rails. all right, all right. >> why do it, though, mel? i mean , what's it all about? mean, what's it all about? because yes, you did make your name not only as work and pensions secretary. you introduced a lot of measures on worklessness, which i think were certainly welcomed warmly by the right of the party. and you were mr broadcast round. so we saw you a lot on gb news during the election campaign. i don't think anyone had previously singled you out as somebody with leadership ambitions. what's it all about? >> so i think we're at a critical juncture for our party. we've clearly lost our way very badly. and i think in terms of reuniting the party, getting the right political platform together and reorganising ourselves as a fighting machine,

i am best placed to deliver that and to connect with the electorate. we've got to rediscover our vision as a party now. my background was i went into parliament aged 48. everybody tells me we need politicians that haven't been politicians that haven't been politicians all their lives. we want people with real world experience. well, that is me. and what i did was i went out and set up my own business businesses here in the uk and also in the united states. that meant getting together with people around the kitchen table, getting ideas together , unifying getting ideas together, unifying people, enthusing them, climbing those mountains and, you know, making things happen. and i believe that's what the conservative party really needs now. now work and pensions that you mentioned, camilla, i've dnven you mentioned, camilla, i've driven some of the most fundamental reforms in a generation , seeing billions of generation, seeing billions of pounds saved from the welfare budget at the same time as having hundreds of thousands of people on that journey to work. that's the level of reform and drive for reform that we need in the conservative party. >> those reforms are welcome. but funny enough, i had a little

conversation with john redwood before he came on air, and we were just talking about you and the welfare reforms. the only problem with them were that they were stalled by year. so redwood was saying there were lots of righties in the party who wanted them to be implemented immediately, and then they were pushed into 2025. so you haven't necessarily landed them because labour could now reverse them, couldn't they? >> so look , i was 18 months in >> so look, i was 18 months in post reform that is fundamental and affects millions of people and affects millions of people and their livelihoods, their big decisions. >> you have to consult on them quite properly. otherwise you get challenged in the courts and they get overturned. so you have to do things in the right way. but we proceeded at pace. now the office for budget responsibility, which is an independent body , assesses my independent body, assesses my reforms as meaning 400,000 fewer people going into those long term sickness and disability benefits than would otherwise be the case. and they've also scored with the treasury billions of pounds worth of savings. now, you can't do that at the flick of a switch. it takes a lot of hard work working with officials to get that done. but i got it done, and i know

that i but i got it done, and i know thati can but i got it done, and i know that i can bring that to the conservative party. >> okay, so when you looked under the bonnet, what was the issue? obviously post covid, we had more people out of work. people will blame 2014 years of conservative rule for encouraging more people into benefits and out of work. i mean , benefits and out of work. i mean, the party has to take some responsibility. i appreciate the work you did in the last 18 months, but how did it get to a situation where i think fraser nelson at the spectator had done a lot of work in this area, sort of 9 million people who could work not working. >> so, look, let's just anti—thatcherite let's just unpack this and get the reality of what's happened, okay? the first thing is our record on employment is excellent . yes. as employment is excellent. yes. as a government. so we had low near highest level of employment in our history, near lowest level in fact half the level went wrong. but that's important. secondly, on economic inactivity, which is where you get the 9 million figure from that for example includes students. there are over 2 million. >> and i think early retirees, perhaps early retirees, etc. >> but if you compare to where we are on economic inactivity compared to where labour was in

office, we have a lower level than every year under the last labour government, and we're lower than the average across the oecd. the g7 and across the eu. so the overall picture relatively is not there, but cabinet. and this is where you're right. long term sickness and disability off the back of covid, particularly a rise in mental health issues amongst particularly young people , has particularly young people, has been a major driver of that. and that's why my reforms around the work capability assessment, which is the gateway into these benefits, has meant 400,000 fewer people going on to those benefits. and i was also consulting on personal independence payments to see how that could be more effective and more efficient as well. >> this dilemma for us, because this is in the papers, this morning, and there was a report in the mail on sunday which had kind of exposed a few rogue doctors that are signing people off sick with no meeting with them, not even online, no evidence for the fact that they're sick. one girl, i think, said she basically wanted to spend some time at the beach because she needed a holiday. she gets a sick note for £25.

how do we crack down on that? because it seems to me that if you're a patient and you turn up at your doctors and say, i'm stressed out, i need four weeks off work, you just get it. >> the overall problem with sick notes is, as follows that doctors, on average, have about six minutes to give you when you come along and say, i'm not feeling great, i need to be signed off on 94% of occasions. they tick a box that says totally incapable of any work whatsoever, which doesn't do you a lot of good when you're sitting there feeling very down to be told that you can't possibly work in only 6% of occasions, do they tick a box that says, well, might be available with appropriate support? i brought something called work well in, which means that instead of just having that box ticked, you actually get referred to an employment specialist. yes alongside the mental health support that you needin mental health support that you need in a one stop shop. and the first thing that they aim to do, camilla, is to keep you in work because it's for good you. now, that might mean liaising with your employer. and if you've got a bad hip, you know, moving your desk down to the ground floor instead of it being on the shop floor, it could be small

changes, easier. but stop that journey that starts with people falling out of work. >> those doctors, what do we do about them? well, if they're signing people off sick online for 25, which should they be struck off? >> what should happen? >> what should happen? >> well, if anybody in the medical profession is behaving unprofessionally and simply dishing out sick notes, where people pay them and for no other reason, they're not being diligent, then clearly action should be taken. what do you mean? >> well, the general medical council or. >> yeah, exactly. somebody like that should be looking at that particular issue. but there is a broader issue of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of these fit notes being signed off every year , and people going on this year, and people going on this longer term journey to longer term benefits and getting very distant from the workforce. so my plan, which was being rolled out and labour may scrap, was to get in early, headed off at the pass, keep people in work rather than letting them drift out. i've got lots more to ask you. >> a couple of personal questions. first, though, you've only got a majority of 61. yes. so you're in a really precarious position come 2029 to lead the

party on such a small majority. >> well, look, i'm very proud of the fact that i won when many, much, much safer seats than mine were lost. you know, and that future conservative leader might want to brag that they've won more convincingly than you did. well, no, i managed to win, as i say, when actually i should have lost. okay, the exit poll, i was told by nick robinson just after 10:00. mr seesahai, what do you have to say? you've clearly lost. well, i didn't, i hung on because i'm a fighter and i was out there fighting every single day. look, we've got to get beyond worrying about a seat like mine if we're going to get back into contention. so we've got to be winning my seat with a 15 to 20,000 majority, which is what it was. and we've got to be bringing back all those seats which were previously safe and more. >> and how about when people say, look , you're never going to say, look, you're never going to win this. you're just doing it to boost your profile, not at all. >> as i say, david cameron, for example, who was the rank outsider as, as you described me earlier a week before he went out and delivered that extraordinary speech at party conference and came through won,

and was 25 to 1 up your sleeve. i think i gave an extraordinary one last night in gloucestershire, which went down extremely well at the hustings. all six of us you mentioned had people flocking to me afterwards. all right, saying we the more we see of you mel stride, the more we like it. >> so this is the conservative, this time. >> this time, this is the conservative broad church spectrum we've got on the right here, john redwood and margaret thatcher. >> and on the left of the party here, we could say, as you've just mentioned, him, david cameron and george osborne, this is a spectrum. where's mel stride? >> okay. so i don't think these spectrums are labels. >> no, no, no, because you've set up this false question or no, i don't accept the premise that you've laid out because i think if you take your so—called right end of the spectrum, you will probably say low net migration, low illegal migration, low illegal migration, low illegal migration, low taxes, everything the conservatives promised but didn't deliver. >> they're not a preserve of the right things i passionately believe in, and people on the so—called left of the party, they are common ground issues. >> so many people coming to the studio saying that they believe in low tax and low immigration.

>> and yet, lo and behold, the tories face an armageddon because they don't deliver on deliver on either of those promises. but i'll tell you, not just in this parliament, but in previous ones. >> let me tell you how we're going to deliver on lower taxes, okay. and the importance of doing so. how we deliver is by running a more efficient government and public sector. we deliver reforms in welfare, which i have already started. >> how do you gain efficiencies? do you sack civil servants? no. what about government? >> you improve productivity. okay and productivity in the pubuc okay and productivity in the public sector. in some places, like the nhs, has even been going backwards despite the large amounts of additional funding that's gone in. but on welfare, where we went into the last election, our manifesto had huge tax cuts. two thirds of those tax cuts, £12 billion worth was paid for by the reforms that i was bringing through welfare. there's enough in welfare to make a difference. now. why tax cuts really matter is we've got an intergenerational challenge as a party. we've got to reach out to younger voters. we're going to have to come up with a very big,

bold offer for younger people. tax is going to play a part in that. i think we can have creative approaches to that. we could, for example , say to those could, for example, say to those taking on their first job that perhaps say the first £5,000 of their national insurance doesn't go to the tax man, it goes into a hypothecated fund. that's there, for example, as a deposit on a property. we've got to be creative, but we've got to find the fiscal space in order to do that. >> and that's why i'm the person to do it, because i've demonstrated. all right. >> so you're good at creating fiscal space. tell me then which tax do you cut first. >> so one of the taxes the taxes that are no brainers are the. >> so called laffer taxes where you can cut them and get more revenue. >> and i think the old arthur laffer and his napkin in the restaurant from my economic days. >> in other words, if you tax people 100%, you get nothing if you touch them zero state the ones that you would like to stamp duty property stamp duty, land tax because it's a transaction based tax, it's 12% at the higher level, ludicrously high. and it means that all those painters and decorators and white van man that comes in

and white van man that comes in and gets involved and helps their businesses , they've got their businesses, they've got that one. >> don't get that because corporation tax, should that come corporation tax we want to see low. >> it's the low of businessmen. it is the lowest. >> it should be lower in the g7 at the moment. >> so we shouldn't get too carried away with your business. >> when you had corporation tax nigel lawson did fantastic rates. well why don't you return to lawson and we definitely. >> i've said we definitely need to be looking at corporation tax small business tax as well. the taxes we really need to lean on and get down are the ones that drive employment and jobs and growth. yes. so we need tax reliefs on investment. i love all this. >> mel, but i listened to this. but you were in the government that presided over the biggest tax burden since the second world war. we can blame covid for that. we can blame ukraine equally. you all come into the studio and talk such a good game on immigration and yet none of you in government have ever honoured your manifesto, manifesto, pledges to bring it down legally and illegally. what happened to david cameron's tens

of thousands? can you make a pledge in the studio? so you say that you'd put a cap on illegal migration. >> you've asked two questions. one is the tax burden. the tax burden did rise, as it did in many other countries, because we spent 400 billion supporting businesses and families through covid and a cost of living crisis caused by the european war. so that's what happens when you spend a lot of money, unless you're fiscally responsible and borrow it instead. but it was coming down. >> tories were the ones who put corporation tax up, though. >> let's not forget that the taxes were small and medium sized. businesses won't forget that. >> i'm sure taxes were coming down. national insurance, including small and medium sized businesses, were coming down. but we need to do more. but on your point about migration, yes, i do think that we need to have a cap. i think it needs to be it needs to be probably in the tens of thousands. i also think something else that we need to probably have some link between the kind of pressures that migration brings in terms, particularly of housing and the level of migration that we think is right. >> how much housing should we be building? the labour party have kept david cameron's target for 1.5 million over the five years,

300 than the tories. they only manage a million. >> no , we did a million in the >> no, we did a million in the last parliament in 2.5 million since 2010, and we outperformed parliament under the last labour 5 million. let's get trading statistics to get one fact very clear. under the last labour government , we saw house government, we saw house building its lowest level since the 1920s. okay, so i'll take no lectures from labour on building houses you set your target at. i think that is one of those areas where the parliamentary party needs to come together and work through our proposal. now you're quite rightly asking these questions, but we have five years now to the next general election. and i think it's absolutely right that on issues like that and the echr would be another example where they are highly contentious, they need to be thought through the echr if necessary, carefully. right. we're dotting around a lot here because we know let's go for the time on the okay, on the echr, on the echr we need to come to a settled position across the parliamentary party to make a stark position on the echr. in this contest, i believe is a

misstep, because if you win this contest, partly on the basis of saying we're going to leave and that's it , saying we're going to leave and that's it, you will go back to a parliamentary party, many of whom will say, i'm sorry, i'm not going with that. >> few of them must have . >> few of them must have. >> few of them must have. >> and that doesn't drive unity, to be fair. but what i would say as a matter of principle is i will not allow the echr or anything else for that matter, stand in the way of us being able to deliver an effective deterrent to illegal crossings, because that we know is the element that drives solving the problem, a form of rwanda i think should definitely, definitely be on the table. look, we saw with albania where you had a returns policy and people coming here going straight back, the numbers dropped by 90%. >> people are coming here safe country. should they be able to stay yes or no? well, if they're genuine refugees coming under genuine refugees coming under genuine scheme can't be refugees, can they .7 refugees, can they? >> well, no, of course we shouldn't be having a situation where people are coming to france, staying in calais and then coming across here. absolutely not. but look, deterrence works committee, we saw what happened with people from northern ireland beginning to go into the republic when

they saw the rwanda scheme. yeah. so we need we saw the pause in crossings while they waited for a labour government because they were worried about rolling, rolling ahead because i want to get to a couple more responses. >> just on the riots. do you think it was right for anti—racism protesters to protest outside the headquarters of reform uk this weekend? >> i think if there are peaceful demonstrations, that is fine. >> reform aj, basically, they're conflating nigel farage and reform with the nigel farage and i've been i've been very vocal on nigel farage and his role in these riots and his comments on it . it. >> i think he has been very wrong. and misguided to have called into question, for example , early on the example, early on the truthfulness of the police around what happened in that awful. is he far right in south? >> is he far right? >> is he far right? >> is he far right? >> i wouldn't describe nigel farage in those terms, but he's a popular anti—racism protesters. >> well, that's a matter that's a question for them far right. >> if there's a peaceful protest, it's peaceful process. and we're a country that allows free speech and protest. and we should, you know, stand by that

final q populism is the thing that has to be called out here. camilla. >> well, populism is quite popular, isn't it? if you would be more populist in the tories, you might have won the election. >> there's a distinction here. having popular policies is one thing, and we should strive for those. absolutely. but being a populist means setting up a them against us, the bogeyman, the people that aren't being truthful for you, with you, the police that aren't being fair, the government that's not on your side. >> law and order. just a minute. and we're running out of time. but the way of the truth, what do you think about people who have been online and maybe inched have been online and maybe incited people to riot and then being put in prison? is that a good use of prison? are crowded prison space, or would you rather see them on the streets repairing the damage? >> no, we now have to accept that the online world is part of the real world. in the sense that it leads to real consequences, and where people do that kind of thing, they should face the full force of the law. >> mel stride thank you. we got through a lot. we did. >> i wish we had more time, if only to see you on a different kind of broadcast round in the gb news studio. >> and good luck in the leadership race. thank you very

much. as i say, we're going to be discussing law and order. law and order. easy for me to say next. with former met detective chief superintendent kevin hurley . want to know what he hurley. want to know what he makes of the police and the government's handling of the riots? stay with us. don't move

welcome back . i'm joined now by welcome back. i'm joined now by former met detective chief superintendent kevin hurley. lovely to see you this morning. can we discuss two tier policing and whether it exists or not? what do you think .7 what do you think? >> well, at the moment, the statements are that it doesn't exist, but certainly in my 30 odd years in police and time since, i can say that when deaung since, i can say that when dealing with certain ethnic minority groups, police do walk on eggshells, they do back off.

and they're extremely cautious in how they deal with them. so from my point of view, at a strategic level, it exists at the operational level. police officers, this is the guys and girls on the street. they get on with the job, such as they see it in front of them, but they also do so in the mindset that if they are caught on video, in a situation that can be misinterpreted or makes them look bad, especially with an ethnic minority, they know they'll be thrown under the bus. so of course there is not an official policy on it, but it has for many years been one of be very cautious or back off or withdraw or don't use excessive or don't use stop and search on certain ethnic minority groups and so on. i mean, the example of it is actually and i'll cut to the chase here is, knife crime in london. most of the people who die from stabbing in london are young black males. and most of the people who do

the murders in london are young black males. so the people who do the crying are black mothers because their sons get life imprisonment or their dead , imprisonment or their dead, although there is disproportionate stop and searching of black youth in london. quite right too, because they are the ones doing the dying and the ones doing the killing. however, as a result of this continual cry that police stop black youths too much, many , stop black youths too much, many, many police officers have withdrawn from doing stop and search. it's down to about a third of what it once was. ten years ago, so yes, that's an example of it. and knife crime continues to go , i mean, i think continues to go, i mean, i think the black community, kevin, i think the black community would obviously hit back at that and say, look , like all communities, say, look, like all communities, we have people that commit criminality. >> that doesn't mean we should all be tarred with the same brush. and this idea that split up and search has been used

disproportionately when it comes to some communities that are just trying to get on with their lives and minding their own business. >> yeah, that's that's unless you ask actual black mums who live in the inner city, because ihave live in the inner city, because i have done that and i've said, do you want me to direct my staff not to stop and search black youths and there's a furore when they say, no, you must do more of it. so depends who you speak to. if you talk to various activists and so on who are out there, it's in their best interest, frankly. they get tv appearances, they're on different quangos. of course, they're going to argue i'll be called a bigot for saying this. the fact is that i ran operation blunt in 2008 for the met, where we had 29 youth murders in one yean we had 29 youth murders in one year, four years later, we were down to eight. and the main reason was we did stop and search on certain inner city areas where the focus was on black youth gangs , so i can put black youth gangs, so i can put my hand on my heart and say, i led an operation that saved over 100 black youths from being killed and maybe 300 getting life in prison. i have no problems in saying that.

>> no kevin, just to bring it back to the riots. you mentioned there this idea of being filmed. it strikes me that the online community has become the enemy of the police in two ways. first of the police in two ways. first of all, because of the fact that the internet can be used so easily to incite violence, to get people to link up and have riots in different towns and cities. but also this idea and this obviously was in evidence in manchester airport. the police being filmed should there be some kind of law to prevent the police being filmed? obviously we see their body cam footage, but we get these sort of half baked pictures of what's actually happened in any policing situation because you can't see the whole film . and can't see the whole film. and from start to finish, you just see snapshots . see snapshots. >> no. absolutely not. everyone should be allowed to film. the police are. it's right that the public, politicians, media hold police to account. where we have got a problem is in the luddite like approach of senior police

leaders to the way the modern world is moving now with twitter x facebook, instagram , snapchat, x facebook, instagram, snapchat, use of periscope and so on. and body worn cameras. if you look in america , they are really in america, they are really wising up to this situation that as soon as a contentious incident occurs, police will put videos of it going out on the media. now police leaders will say this could affect court proceedings. well, maybe it it does. proceedings. well, maybe it it does . however, what is most does. however, what is most important for the police is not that they win on an individual incident, it's that they maintain public confidence and the public think they're working for them. so if a case is contentious, then they should film it with with immediate coverage of what's occurred because winning overall public, appreciation or acceptance is far more important than individual case. >> kevin hurley, we're going to have to leave it there. but thank you so much for joining have to leave it there. but thank you so much forjoining us this morning. thank you so much forjoining us this morning . well, coming up this morning. well, coming up next, we're going to be hearing

from the prison side of things, stephen valle from tempest nova, a former prison officers. and they're here to describe what it's like being in prison, but also how to reform offenders after release. don't go anywhere

welcome back, steve fryer and val vavroch from tempest nova, which is an organisation that deals with the rehabilitation of offenders and getting them back into work. join me in the studio now . slight disclaimer because i now. slight disclaimer because i am an ambassador of this charity, but i got you both in chaps because there's been a lot of talk about prison overcrowding. we've had prisons once again in the news lines because of everything going on with the riots and let's quickly get people into prison, don't quite know where they're going to go because they're so overcrowded. and we've had the elevation to prisons. minister of james timpson, who's very much associated with your line of work , which is actually of work, which is actually stopping recidivism by getting

people to earn an honest living. so steve, first of all, the prison overcrowding situation. what just give us a quick snapshot of what life is like in prisons at the moment, because from the outsider, they look like they're completely overrun. >> indeed, it's i feel so sorry for the people that are in the shoes that we were in working in prisons at the moment, because literally not that far off capacity. yeah. and usually the numbers that you hear in the press are the real world. it's worse than that , so all this worse than that, so all this talk of getting people in prison quickly through the courts. yeah. yeah. i can't see how they're going to cope scratching your head, val, and thinking where. >> yeah , exactly, you know, the >> yeah, exactly, you know, the prisons are bursting at the seams. i mean, what we do is actually we're trying to empty the prisons because we're getting the people who are leaving prison , getting them leaving prison, getting them into work and keeping them out of prison . of prison. >> clarify that, because you don't deal with violent offenders and people accused of sex crimes. no, but you could

potentially face having to reform rioters. is that something you could do, val .7 something you could do, val? >> yeah, i'm sure there's no reason why not exactly the same as anyone else, as long as they're willing and want to do it. yeah, they've got to show the want. and what we will do is pair them up with an employer, one of our employers, and support both of them for 12 months. we've now placed two, just placed our 11 hundredth person into work, and only 3.4% of actually return to custody. out of that 1100, so 38 have returned to costa within a two year period. yeah. the national stats are they're up to around 30% reoffend within 12 months. >> i mean, people say, steve, you know , rehabilitation it's you know, rehabilitation it's soft on crime and criminals. but you two aren't softies. i know this because i know you. and you used to be the guys who were walking around the cells with the keys. yeah, maintaining law and order. how does it work best, steve? describe how because we've we've talked about you had once i think bradford's most prolific car thief who now works for a logistics company doing really well. what's the

magic formula to stopping criminals from ending up back in prison , knowing what you're prison, knowing what you're doing when you're working with them? >> yeah , we've got nearly 100 >> yeah, we've got nearly 100 years prisons experience in tampa nova, and you can't put a price on it , price on it, >> but what do people need? i mean , they might leave prison mean, they might leave prison illiterate. do they need educational help? do they just need an employer who doesn't look at the record and looks at the person and says, you can reform yourself with my help? is that it? psychological. it is. >> they need help and then they need to be working with an organisation that knows what they're doing and that actually can navigate the criminal justice system, which in itself is complex. >> tell us how it works. then. you've got partnerships with a load of firms. you've got partnerships with a load of firms . so you're load of firms. so you're particularly based in the north, although you'd like to expand it across the whole of the uk. and what do those employers say now that you've been working with them for some years about the prisoners that you give them to become their employers employees? >> well, remarkably , our we did >> well, remarkably, our we did a snapshot of 100 people last

year to see how many have been promoted. and it was 21. so they're actually more loyal and hard working than the people that they get through the normal recruitment agencies. >> is that because they've been institutionalised or because they it's because they're so grateful, because society's turned their back on them, because there's such a stigma about having a conviction .7 about having a conviction? >> yeah. and there's very, very, very little out there. we know james tips and timpson was the, the pioneer for this and the work he's done is phenomenal in my opinion. and he was the inspiration really part of the inspiration really part of the inspiration for tempers never to be born. so even more good has been done in the just to explain timpson. >> obviously he runs the shu and the key cutting business and he basically said to himself, we need to help prisoners back into work. and so i will be a willing employer. i won't look at the criminal record. i will give them a chance, which used to raise a bit of a titter because he had serving prisoners, cutting keys. >> yes. >> yes. >> well , that's a very good >> well, that's a very good point. a useful skill inside . point. a useful skill inside. >> maybe, if james has got any

sense. i mean, it costs us £3,000 to place an ex—offender into work and keep them in work for 12 months. it cost the government 51,500 to keep that person in prison for a year. yes. so all we need is more £3,000 that we can help more people across the country. yeah, we're currently our target this yearis we're currently our target this year is to help to place 250 into work, which is, you know, you get into a stage, we can get to a stage where we could be placing a thousand into work a year and then we could look at maybe start closing a couple of prisons . prisons. >> and what's your reoffending stat like then, with the people that you've helped? how many of them have unfortunately gone back to a life of crime? >> 38 out of out of 1100. >> 38 out of out of 1100. >> that is a very good record. >> that is a very good record. >> and that's within and that's tracked for two years after we started working with them. so that's 3.4% compared to the 30% reoffending. yes overall. >> and that's checked on the prison system as well. so we know factually, if anybody's gone back into prison nationally. >> yeah. when you look at the

riots and they've actually taken place near your neck of the woods, right? i mean, we saw harehills, which just seemed to be people just jumping on the bandwagon of wanton criminality. you're used to dealing with criminals. what's your assessment of the riots and have people just been opportunistic? is there a sense to which we're lawless, i think sorry, steve. >> what how i see it and the what a bit of a disturbance in my home town, barnsley, and a couple of people came on and said, look, i'm not right wing, i'm not far, right? i'm just a normal person and i'm fed up with this immigration, the problem, it's not going away. it's been highlighted so much in the press and on tv. >> i think it's decades of neglect, personalities, people not being listened to and frustrations boiling over. and you always get the odd idiot or 400. is it a minute? idiots, who will use that as an excuse actually to cause mayhem .7 cars? actually to cause mayhem? cars? yes. not quite often you'll find that if you dig deep into those

individuals, they've actually had pretty damn horrendous upbringings and chaotic lives themselves. >> i was going to ask you this about the prisoners you deal with. i mean, is there a misunderstanding? first of all, is life in prison easy? >> no, no, not far from it. >> it people talk about xboxes and you can watch the. >> he talking about the prisoners, aren't you? yeah i'm talking for prisoners. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> i mean, that does that does happen. xboxes. but that'll be in category a estate. yeah. where you know , they're in where you know, they're in prison for a long time. so you have to have a bit of a puzzle because you have to have a relationship with those type of people as a prison officer, because you're going to be together for the next 15, 20 years. yes. so they do get more privileges. >> i mean, do most prisoners want to change? >> yes, yes they do. but the at different times in their because of their records, they can't they find it impossible to go out and get a job. and that's why we found they've got this whole backlog. >> their whole cv is just full

of being in and out. >> that's it. yeah. if it weren't for the barrier, if it weren't for the barrier, if it weren't for the 12 month support, because we offer 12 month support for both the person we place them into the company and for the company. yeah. and if it wasn't for that 12 month support, the companies wouldn't be as interested because that's vital to the key. >> and it also depends on where they're at in their lives as to whether they want to change, because you find that the younger element, mr timpson, will bear us out on this because he doesn't employ anybody under 25. oh, interesting. he's a businessman. yeah they're not ready. it's cool to sell drugs and get a grand a week. it was going to work in a warehouse for a grand a month. yeah. you know, they've got flash cars, nice trainers. it's still a buzz evading the police. usually when late 20s, early 30s, the lives changed. they settled down. they have children. they think differently. might even be the judge that says next time you're in front of me, young man, it's double figures. it sobers a muppet, makes them think differently. yeah, there's a significant event in their lives that makes them think differently . so of the 88,000 differently. so of the 88,000 people in custody, prison currently, we know that they all

don't want to change today, tomorrow, tomorrow and the day after some more will the 88,000. >> is that too high? i mean, we've had successive governments promising more prison places. yes. do we need more? we need fewer. >> we need fewer. i think we send people to prison. ridiculous. so easily. i think they should like they did in scotland. i think they raise it to no less than a 12 month sentence. it's pointless sending somebody to prison for three, three, four, five, six months because it's chaotic. it's just chaotic for that person. the what should they do instead? >> because people communities punished. >> community sentences have proven statistically to, have a better effect on the person. there's less chance that they'll reoffend. >> to conclude shapps, are we saying prison works? but for the most serious crimes? yeah and for others? other alternatives? yes, definitely . and a final yes, definitely. and a final word as well. before we go, just prison . prison guards. what are prison. prison guards. what are your former colleagues telling to you? very briefly, val, because less experience in prisons now. criminals sort of running the joint. >> what you've got is the drop the edge of recruitment to 19 years of age. so you've got

prison officers now joining the service at 19 with no life experience. if i were if i were james timpson, i would shove that to 25 like, he's done within his country. >> okay. minimum age limit on being a prison governor. yes. right. we're running i've got different timings in my ear, but i think we've got about 20s left. so val and steve from tempus novo, thank you very much. we'll put your details on our website. so people can check out your organisation. i'm going to be back in a few weeks time because i'm having a little break. chris hope is going to be here next week, but up next it's michael portillo . and before michael portillo. and before that it's the weather. have a good rest

>> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. we

are in the month named after octavius, known as caesar augustus, who died on the 19th of august, 1480. the first roman emperor whose reign initiated an imperial cult and ushered in a penod imperial cult and ushered in a period largely without armed conflict, known as the pax romana. many think that keir starmer has emerged quite well, given the government's response to the riots , even if it falls to the riots, even if it falls short at this stage of an imperial cult piece, there certainly isn't not at home, not in russia or ukraine, and not in the middle east. does our new government understand what lies behind the riots? does it have any vision for how to unite britain? and if a former director of public prosecutions has been competent to handle riots , can we imagine him riots, can we imagine him playing a role in the international conflicts that destroy world peace? the pax mundi, a distinguished panel, will debate all of that. can a congress hall in nuremberg in germany, a breathtakingly vast building commissioned by adolf hitler, be repurposed to create a new music venue? or are its

bncks a new music venue? or are its bricks and mortar permeated