yvette cooper she on that. also yvette cooper she says that we've lost respect for the police in this country. is she right.7 and if so, how do we fix that? speaking she right? and if so, how do we fix that? speaking of law and order, today we've seen 12 year old children charged for things like kicking a bus in a window and throwing things during the riots. have we got our approach to all of this right or not? and a clampdown on free speech that is on the lips of many. and according to one of my panel tonight, matt goodwin , he's tonight, matt goodwin, he's wondering if we're heading towards a tinpot dictatorship. blimey, is that unrealistic or fair? you tell me . all that and fair? you tell me. all that and more. but first, the 6:00 news headunes. headlines. >> michelle, thank you very much . >> michelle, thank you very much. and good evening to you. 601 exactly. and we start with the top story of the day that a man has been arrested in central london after two people,

including an 11 year old girl, were stabbed earlier. the child and a 34 year old woman were taken to hospital . but their taken to hospital. but their injuries are not thought to be life threatening. well, our home and security editor, mark white, is in leicester square for us tonight, mark. >> well, late this afternoon, the metropolitan police released some important new information about this attack that neither the suspect nor the two victims here appear to have been known to each other. what? we spoke to abdullah , who was a security abdullah, who was a security guard in one of the nearby premises here that ran on heanng premises here that ran on hearing the screams out to subdue this attacker and bring him to the ground. this is what he told us. >> i jumped on him. hold the handin >> i jumped on him. hold the hand in which he wasn't having a knife, and he just put him down on the floor and just hold him and kick the knife away from him. and then a couple of more people joined as well, and we just hold him until the police came. it took like maybe 3 to 4 minutes. police arrived and they just took him into custody and the child, just like all my

colleagues, they gave him first aid. >> well, the metropolitan police have praised the bravery of abdullah and others that came to the assistance of that mother. and child, subduing the suspect . and child, subduing the suspect. he is now in custody and being questioned by police. at this stage. they say there's no evidence to suggest a terrorist motivation, but they have no other indication yet as to what the motive was . the motive was. >> mark, thank you very much. mark white there. our home and security editor, live for us in leicester square. well, turning to manchester now, two people have been arrested there after a man died falling from a balcony. the 57 year old was on the fourth floor of a block of flats in salford last night when the incident took place. a 37 year old man and a 40 year old woman are being questioned on suspicion of murder. more than 13,000 migrants have now crossed the english channel so far this yeah the english channel so far this year. that's afterjust over 700

year. that's after just over 700 people crossed on sunday, in the highest number on a single day since sir keir starmer became prime minister. and it follows yesterday's two deaths of two migrants attempting to reach the uk in a small boat. a 12 year old boy has become the youngest person convicted in connection with nationwide public disorder in the uk. he admitted to violent disorder charges after throwing a missile at a police van and participating in unrest in manchester on the 31st of july, the court heard. he was part of a group outside a houdayinn part of a group outside a holiday inn that was housing asylum seekers, and was also filmed kicking the window of a passing bus. due to his age, the boy can't be named and we understand another 12 year old is set to appear in liverpool youth court facing similar charges . meanwhile, the home charges. meanwhile, the home secretary has said that respect for police must be restored after they faced what she called brazen abuse and contempt during the rioting. yvette cooper says it's crucial to maintain a strong police response on the

ground to and keep up the pace of arrests and prosecutions. police had remained on high alert over the weekend, but there was no widespread unrest . there was no widespread unrest. the prime minister has issued a joint statement with french and german leaders calling for a ceasefire negotiation between israel and hamas to resume immediately. it comes as the us has strengthened its military presence in the middle east, with concerns rising there over a potential iranian retaliatory strike against israel. they've deployed a guided missile submarine and told an aircraft carrier strike group to arrive in the region earlier than planned. well, hamish faulkner is the uk's minister for the middle east, so the statement from the prime minister and the leaders of france and germany just underlines how concerned we are about the risks of escalation in the region . escalation in the region. >> we're making a strong statement of the need for calm in the region and to iran in particular, not to escalate the situation in paris, an investigation is underway after a british man climbed the eiffel

tower on the last day of the paris games. >> the shirtless climber was seen scaling the 330 metre landmark yesterday, just hours before the closing ceremony of the olympics. he has been released under investigation for endangenng released under investigation for endangering lives for and trespassing back here. good news for heat lovers today has been the uk's hottest day of the year so far, with a top temperature of 34.8 c, just shy of the expected 35 it was reached in cambridge . in blackpool, cambridge. in blackpool, meanwhile, the zoo's pregnant elephants , noorjahan and aysha, elephants, noorjahan and aysha, have spent the afternoon cooling off in their very own swimming pool off in their very own swimming pool. but further north, the met office has issued a yellow weather warning for thunderstorm s, weather warning for thunderstorms, flash flooding and possible travel disruption and possible travel disruption and in sport , britain's most and in sport, britain's most successful diver, tom daley, has announced he's retiring today. he's won five olympic medals, including a gold, three bronzes and a silver, most recently in paris. will daley has now arrived back in the uk alongside

other medal winning athletes from the games. great britain ended the olympics with 65 medals, the same number they won at london 2012, and their second best ever medal haul on foreign soil. last night, the king and queen sent their warmest congratulations and his majesty hailed team gb as an inspiration. the prince and princess of wales also congratulated athletes in this special video . special video. >> greetings loved ones from all of us watching at home. congratulations to team gb. >> well done on all you've achieved. you've been an inspiration to us all and a big congratulations from all of us here at gb. >> news to those are the latest headlines. i'll be back with you at 7:00 for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone , news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com >> forward slash alerts . >> forward slash alerts. >> forward slash alerts.

>> thank you very much for that. i am michelle dewberry and i'm keeping you company until 7:00 tonight. alongside me, my panel, the former labour minister bill rammell, and matt goodwin, the pollster and academic. good evening gents. you're both very welcome to good night. good evening. as are each and every one of you at home. what is on your mind tonight? there's a lot ineed your mind tonight? there's a lot i need to discuss with you. i want to talk generally about the state of the nation . also about state of the nation. also about your trust in the police. do you respect the police still? if not, why not? and how do we kind of turn that around? yvette cooper she's talking tough on that. i also want to look at this 12 year old charge. is this the right approach charging children in this way? do you support that? are you a tough on law and order kind of person, even if that is children, and also as well free speech. one of my panel pondering today whether or not we're kind of tiptoeing into some kind of north korean, style approach. what do you think to that, is that far fetched, or is it a little bit of truth in it? gbnews.com/yoursay is how you can talk to me and each other. you can email gb views @gbnews.

com or of course , you can tweet com or of course, you can tweet or text me your views very welcome tonight. but look, it was horrendous last week. i don't know about you guys at home. i felt very, very drained. some of the stuff that was going on, and i was hoping that this week was going to be a bit more, i don't know, off to a better start and so on and so forth. very sadly, i can report, as you've just been hearing in those bulletins, that wasn't the case. we started the week with some horrendous news coming from central london, leicester square to be precise, an 11 year old little girl and a 34 year old woman stabbed. as you've just been hearing. let's cross live to our gb news reporter adam cherry. he is at leicester square as we speak. good evening to you. what's the latest, adam? >> so i'm standing just a few metres away from that crime scene, as you say, a 34 year old woman and her 11 year old daughter stabbed here just before midday today. and in the last hour or so, we've seen forensic teams coming in and out

of tweet , which is the venue of tweet, which is the venue here, gathering evidence from the street and within the venue itself . we understand the itself. we understand the stabbing, of course, took place just here behind me . and then just here behind me. and then the victims were treated inside this venue . paramedics were this venue. paramedics were inside here and you can see if you look inside the window, there are still still material in there. and forensic teams are now going over that. and as you as we heard in the bulletins, a 32 year old man has been arrested. you can just see another forensics officer entering the building. now, if you're watching on television, 32 year old man arrested. police say they don't have they have no insight into the motive at this point, although they have said within the last hour or so that they do not believe the victims were known to the attacker. so that's the latest here. you see, it's very busy still at the moment. london is still going about their day, but some really shocking scenes earlier today. >> michelle, thank you very much for that. adam i mean, it just i

don't even want to say as a mum because it's not even just about being a mum, is it? it's just about being a normal decent human being. when you go for a day out, you do not expect to be accosted in this way. and if that's report there, he's saying that's report there, he's saying that they were not. this person was not known to them. you just do not expect you're taking your little one. if you don't know that area. it's bang in the middle of central london. it's a very, very touristy area. you've got covent garden nearby, you've got covent garden nearby, you've got all of the, like the cinemas that kind of go around leicester square, where that shop is. to the one side of it you've got like a lego shop. if you've got any kids that are into lego, thatis any kids that are into lego, that is their idea of heaven. almost opposite that you've got an m&m store, again, a child's idea of heaven. so this will be a little girl, as he just said there with her mum just enjoying again the school holidays and the delights that london has to offer for those children. i mean, it's just awful. matt goodwin , isn't it? goodwin, isn't it? >> it's terrible. and i think

many people watching will be thinking, what on earth is happening to this country? it just feels as though lawlessness is completely out of control. it feels like children are no longer off limits. we've had a string of horrific atrocities in recent weeks. we've got nationally the polls telling us crime is now number three in the list of priorities for british people. and i've said it a lot over the last few weeks. you know, i just don't think people feel safe anymore in this country. and i think there's just been a general collapse of law and order and respect for authority. and when children are involved especially, it becomes utterly sickening . and my heart utterly sickening. and my heart and prayers go out to anybody who's involved in in in the latest atrocity and what feels like lawless britain . yeah. like lawless britain. yeah. >> and i've got to say, obviously i'm northern and when italk obviously i'm northern and when i talk to some of my friends up north about going to london, some of their immediate responses would be why on earth would i go there? it's an absolute dump. and that's been a

sentiment held by many people. and i think that's a sentiment that we'll be getting worse as we hear stories like this . we hear stories like this. >> bill rammell your thoughts, but it's actually a uk wide problem. i mean, you've seen the figures today that actually knife crime is worst in the west midlands and cleveland than it is in london, but it's a huge problem across the country. i mean, i disagree with matthew. the country is not out of control. it's not lawless actually, across all categories of crime. it's gone down for 30 years under successive governments, with the exception of knife crime, which has gone up of knife crime, which has gone ”p by of knife crime, which has gone up by 85% since 2015. and you speak as a mother, michelle, i speak as a mother, michelle, i speak as a parent and a grandparent. and this really, really worries me and concerns me. and we need a serious response. there's got to be mandatory intervention if you are carrying a knife, either through curfews, either through tagging or detention, but we've got to tackle the root causes as well. and we need education because too many kids are carrying a knife because they

think it makes them safer, when in fact all the evidence shows it's the reverse of that. >> you see, i obviously i don't kondo and carry knives. obviously i do need to make that point clear. but then if you are a teenager, and the people that are against you and i mean, this is how pathetic life now is, because if you live in a different postcode and when i say you, if you're a teenager, it's not even about you. it's about your mum and dad or just about your mum and dad orjust your mum or whatever. but if you are a teenage kid and you feel that someone's going to come and, you know, attack you or whatever, because you have the audacity to live in a separate postcode, which often this is how pathetic this is, then they would argue that they do feel safer and you're going to say, as you just said, well, the evidence doesn't bear that out. and if you thought it actually makes them more vulnerable, that that's what the evidence shows you, that if you carry a knife, you, that if you carry a knife, you are more likely to get involved in an altercation where a knife will be used against you. >> and that's what we've got to educate young people of. but we've got to tackle the root causes and we've got to intervene on people carrying knives. >> just briefly. i mean,

obviously we don't know what's happened today in this case. i'm not going to speculate about this individual case. but, you know, clearly, we've also had a number of cases involving knife crime that have clearly exhibited the signs of mental illness. now, i you know, i don't want to politicise this debate today, but one of the things that the labour government said it would do in its manifesto was make it harder to section mentally unwell people from minority backgrounds. that makes me nervous. labour talks about that.is nervous. labour talks about that. is that what labour said? thatin that. is that what labour said? that in a manifesto? >> i don't know if that's in the labour manifesto. it is not. >> it is. and because they basically, you know, someone in the labour movement views the system as being discriminatory towards people from minority backgrounds. it makes me nervous. i don't think we should be doing that. i think we should be doing that. i think we should be turning up the volume of law and order. we should be making it harder for people to carry knives. we should ensure those people who need mental health support get that support, not making it harder to put them away if they shouldn't be on our

streets. well, look, we're going to come on to it. >> but we have been turning up the volume on law and order over the volume on law and order over the last to talk about that. >> i'm looking forward to that discussion. >> yeah, yeah, you've been charging 12 year olds and we'll come on to that as well, >> look, this whole kind of i want to talk about mental health side of things and i'll cover that tomorrow. actually because do you remember you used to have.i do you remember you used to have. i remember when i was growing up, you had a hospital called deltapoll, and it was, like a mental hospital, people would call them all kinds of things. and there was a deliberate shift, wasn't there, to take, to kind of close down lots of those facilities and to move people that had mental health challenges into the community and care for people there. i do wonder whether or not that approach is still the right one in this day and age, so i'll save that conversation for tomorrow. but look, somebody there was quite a few brave people today. we often talk about if there was a violent crime in front of you, how would you react? well, look at this. this is a security guard that was present during that attack this afternoon at leicester square. look. >> heard a scream. and the

moment i saw it, there was, one person roughly maybe like mid 30s or early 30s. and he was like stabbing a kid. and i jumped on him, hold the hand in which he wasn't having a knife, and he just put him down on the floor and just hold him and kicked the knife away from him. and then a couple of more people joined as well, and we just hold him until the police came. >> i've got to be honest, a lot of security guards in this day and age, they're pretty damn useless. but that one, i'm not being rude. they are. i've seen i've seen copious amounts of cctv footage and you know that one. i've got to say, he's a hero. because in this day and age, ask yourself honestly, if you saw somebody with a knife stabbing children, adults. i know we all say , oh yeah, jump know we all say, oh yeah, jump on him and rugby tackle him and all the rest of it. when you're faced with that scenario, i imagine that people, lots of people, would perhaps freeze and then fear for themselves. so, i mean, one of my views has been in touch already, saying that chap should be made get some kind of knighthood or something for his bravery. i mean, i think are you underestimating the

british people a little bit ? british people a little bit? >> i mean, you know, we've had a number of recent attacks and atrocities. think about southport, the guy that ran in who took on the suspect. i think about the islamist attack on westminster bridge. we had brits running around with her a whale, tusk. yeah. toss. didn't we? we had the guy, you know, the millwall guy who took on the islamist. there's something about this country, you know, that says, hang on, we're not going to take this. we're actually going to intervene and we're going to get stuck in. and i'm actually quite proud of that tradition here in britain. you know, we do resist the radicals and the extremists. and i think that's what part of our national culture. >> do you agree with that, bill? >> do you agree with that, bill? >> yeah, i think i'm going to spoil the disagreement you want on this program. i actually broadly agree with matthew on that. i think there's a whole host of examples where enough people do step in, do intervene and do make a difference. >> what would you do? do you think it's easy to pontificate, isn't it? have you ever been in that situation? i remember one of you got in touch with me and said that you had intervened in something, and it didn't end

well for you, so get in touch with your stories about that. would you get involved? would you stop it? your thoughts on that, also coming up after the break, i do want to talk about law and order. then in this country, yvette cooper, she's saying now that we've lost respect for the police, she's having none of that. and wants to change that completely. your thoughts and also this approach, she has been speaking then 12 year olds now getting convicted because of their part in the riots. do you agree with that? is that fair? is that what we need? tough law and order.

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry with you till seven bill rammell and mark goodwin remain alongside me. lots of prayers coming through on the inbox for that security guard. lots of people saying that he should get an award for bravery . something an award for bravery. something like that, also, when i'm asking you, have you lost respect for the police? i've got to say

there's quite a mixed bag on that one, so i want to get into that one, so i want to get into that topic because yvette cooper , that topic because yvette cooper, she is basically said, that we've lost respect for the police in this country. we've lost respect for the police in this country . and long police in this country. and long story short, she's not having any of that. she completely is against that. and she wants to turn that whole thing around. matt goodwin, your thoughts? >> i think it's an interesting intervention by yvette cooper and i one thing i don't want to do is rehash the arguments over two tier policing, because i feel like we've had a week of that, but my personal view is, i think there is an issue there that we need to talk about. what i want to say, though, is of all the interventions i yvette cooper could have made as home secretary, it's interesting that she's zoomed in on respect for the police, because i think this is what labour have done. they've turned the issue of the last week or so into a criminality law, law and order issue, and there is certainly part of that which is true. but what they've not done is what we saw during black lives matter, which is what keir starmer did then, which is say, actually there are wider grievances and concerns here that we need to talk about. it's not just a law

and order criminality issue . and order criminality issue. there are, you know, there is systemic racism and discrimination. there are issues within the black community that we need to talk about this time around. it seems labour are falling over themselves to, to, to not talk about those wider grievances. i mean, i've got flack all week on social media for saying this is clearly about the collapse of our borders, mass migration, broken model and multiculturalism because nobody, it seems, within the labour movement, except maybe bill wants to talk about the wider grievances that many people in this country feel. >> is that fair, bill? >> is that fair, bill? >> no it's not. we've been talking about this right the way throughout the general election campaign and we'll be talking about it beyond. but what we saw you've been talking about what about immigration, that it's too high. then it needs to be dramatically reduced, that it's three times higher today than it was when the last labour government left office, that we've got to tackle that misleading bill. that's not a bit misleading. >> you guys opened the door to mass immigration, matthew. >> net migration is three times

higher today than it was in 2010. and that's because the tories completely lost control. so of course we need it in 97. hold on of course we need to tackle it, but we need to distinguish that from the lawlessness and the mob rule that we've seen for over almost two weeks, which is frankly, in my experience, some of the worst lawlessness we've seen in this country. in in my experience, that had to be tackled. it had to be tackled through clear messaging. it had to be tackled through early court cases coming forward. and that has begun to work. but without that intervention, i think we were losing control of the country. >> just, just just because i sometimes feel like i'm going insane. do you at all see any any, credence , the argument that any, credence, the argument that keir starmer reacted very differently to black lives matter protests in 2020 than he's reacted to these protests in 2024? or am i sort of making this up? because i remember keir starmer in 2020 saying there are

legitimate grievances here. we need to talk about it. i need to take the knee. i need to intervene. whereas now keir starmer yvette cooper are saying this is criminality, law and order, far right thuggery, nothing to see here. move on. >> well, no, i actually think there's an absolute consistency with keir. go back to the 2011 riots which were in response to a police, a black person being attacked . keir absolutely attacked. keir absolutely cracked down hard on that. he was at the forefront of talking about law and order through black lives matter, and now it's a consistent theme for him that you have to have to act fast, you have to have to act fast, you have to act early. if you're not to lose control in social terms. and i think that's absolutely the right priority, >> one of my viewers, adrian , >> one of my viewers, adrian, he's a gb news member. thank you for that. he says, michel, we respect the police. it's the politicians that we've lost respect for, for not addressing the major problems which affects our country. and you know what? and i hope you know, i really do

hope that this kind of violent episode has stopped. i really hopeit episode has stopped. i really hope it has. i want to live in a country where we've got as much harmony as we possibly can, but if you squeeze something and you kind of suppress something, that doesn't mean that you can high five yourself, because the problem has now gone away. because if people have got issues just because they're told off and, you know, chastise and that we've created all of these show trials and all the rest of it, it doesn't mean that overnight the problem is solved. and i think people seem to be missing that. >> i think the problem is going to get worse. i really do, and i don't want to say that, michel, but i really do . look, we're but i really do. look, we're already running net migration levels at six 700,000 a year. no country, no one's ever done this before and come out on the other side as a healthy, vibrant, cohesive country. the borders we know have collapsed today, 18,000 illegal migrants have entered the country this year alone. we know i would argue, that the illegal migration crisis is going to get worse. we can talk all day long about

smashing the gangs , but unless smashing the gangs, but unless we've got a deterrent, unless we leave the echr, we can't control our own borders. and the point that i think left and right in some other galaxy would agree on is that the british people deserve to feel safe in their own country, and at the moment, millions of people do not feel safe in their own country under either the labour government or the preceding conservative governments . the elite class governments. the elite class generally have failed on all of these issues, and that is why people are so frustrated. >> and that was, i think, the point that adrian is making, that people have almost disconnected because i think we had one of the lowest turnouts in god knows how many years i was going to say a century, but i don't know if it was that long. >> at the last general election, we've got a government elected with about 20% of the national vote collectively, which is not that great. many of you watching perhaps would have voted for reform. and did you see the protests this weekend if you didn't see them ? luckily for didn't see them? luckily for you, i've got some footage of

it. take a look at this. okay. it's coming. hold that thought. but you will have seen some of these scenes. i'll show them to you. >> i know i know. >> i know i know. >> let me respond to matthew because, you know, he he hadn't said anything yet. he said a lot in the previous segment. you know, let me put it another way, okay. if labour hasn't reduced net migration significantly within a few years, we will have failed. and there's an absolute determination to do that by tackling illegal migration but also tackling illegal migration as well. you know, in the last week, yvette cooper has charged the migration advisory committee to review the permissible lists of those sectors of the economy that can recruit foreign workers over british workers. and i think that's absolutely the right thing to do . however, right thing to do. however, however, matthew, we're on day 39 of this. i agree, and it is going to take time. >> listen, listen, i hope you're right . but we also know what right. but we also know what labour have done over the last 30 odd days. they've loosened migration from afghanistan,

they've removed the salary thresholds. so relatives of migrants will find it easier to come into the country. we've got an illegal migration plan. i would argue that's not going to work. they've amended the illegal migration act, essentially giving an amnesty to tens of thousands of people, saying other people around the country of bebe. but hang on, hang on a minute, lads. >> there's listen, there's a list and only 30 days. >> and to top it all off and yet the projections are that net migration, which was at 685,000, is by next year going to be down to 200,000. yeah. okay. so if net legal migration next year falls to 200,000 a year, i will come back on this show and i will eat this lovely cream blazer. i hold you to that. that i'm, that i'm wearing because because the blunt reality though is and it's a serious issue. right. because very seriously, what's what's the number one issue in this country today? according to the polling, according to yougov polling, immigration has gone up ten points. economy number two, crime number three. immigration is what everybody else is talking about except keir starmer and yvette cooper. people out there are saying, can

you please lower the levels, get control of the border? i don't want to feel unsafe in my own country. i feel like i'm one of those puppets. i've just been saying this over and over again. for the last we have been talking about migration. >> we will continue to talk about it. more importantly, unlike the last government, we will contract on it. we need to get control. >> i hope you do. i really do, and as i say, if you do, i will be the first person to come here and say congratulate it. >> when we were last in power, when we significantly reduced asylum numbers over five years from 2005 to that's like ten, that's slightly different. >> we didn't have mass immigration until we had a labour government. >> well, we had the expansion of the european union. yeah and you know, bluntly, and i think you were in favour of brexit, but, you know, actually most of those were hard working people who came here to support our economy . came here to support our economy. >> and the new ones aren't. >> and the new ones aren't. >> well, i think there is a concern that not everyone who comes here is as hardworking as those east european migrants who came to staff. our restaurants, our shops and other businesses. >> what we need is a new

consensus. we need to freeze all non—essential immigration into this country, outside of the nhs and some migration for social care, and we need a freeze so we can absorb the changes that we have experienced over the last 25 years, >> many people will be watching this as well, bill, and you're talking about immigration, and i know that you're a big fan for example, of tony blair. many people will be watching this bill going, hang on a minute, michel. it was some of the foreign policy interventions of the likes of blair that have now made so many people want to move away from some of those countries, and that is what's responsible for a lot of the movement. also, people will be getting in touch and saying the likes of rachel reeves, i think it was back in 2016. she was saying, that if we don't get kind of a handle on things like immigration, we will see riots. or she was worried that we would see riots potentially sweeping the streets. so i found it interesting that when she predicted that there you go. that's the headline. there that riots could strip the streets of britain if immigration is not curbed after britain. well, fast forward all these years, immigration wasn't curbed. after britain. people did see those

riots and all of a sudden they're not the concerned people at rachel reeves was referring to in 2016. now they're scum of the earth, apparently awful far right individuals, these 12 year olds. >> but but hold on. what we saw on our streets with people firebombing hotels, throwing bncks firebombing hotels, throwing bricks at police, storming mosques. that's not british. that's not surrenders, criminality, horrendous criminality, horrendous criminality and we had to crack down on it rightly. >> what are you proud of? >> what are you proud of? >> the fact that you've just. hall. sorry, matt, are you proud of the fact that a 12 year old has just been convicted? >> i don't know about proud of it, but i think it's the right thing to do. you know, we've just been talking about knife crime. you know, if you're going to tackle knife crime, you have to tackle knife crime, you have to tell 12, 13, 14 year olds that there are consequences if they carry knives and use them. and exactly the same prevails when we're talking about riots. >> i'm very uncomfortable, like, i completely, you know , i completely, you know, criticise, i condemn people taking matters into their own

hands by way of violence, whether that's to people, property, places of worship and so on and so forth. but there's just been this strange turn to me that so many people in power seem to be almost gloating. and it's like, look at us clamping down on this 12 year old. this is a kid that's just left primary school, pretty much. but i find it like the tone of celebrating that actually you're going to batter these kids with criminal records for kicking a window and kicking them. and like, i don't know, maybe i'm like, i don't know, maybe i'm like, people will be shouting back at the telly saying, michel, it's absolutely right. and in another breath, michel, you'd be saying tough on crime and law and order and so on. look so many people who are frustrated about immigration, they did tend to reform about 4 million of them. i've just been showing you on the screen and perhaps we'll get it up again. people now went down to what they thought was a head office of reform uk, to declare essentially, that this party is fascist, right, you know, nazi scum basically. what do you think to that? >> i think it's utterly ridiculous. i think those people are idiots. i think essentially what they're trying to do is what they're trying to do is what people on the left often try and do during moments of

crisis is shut down. debate narrow the public square. the reform party is a is a democratically elected party for five mps in the house of commons. nigel farage is a democratic member of parliament. but what we're seeing is the same thing that we saw in the aftermath of brexit, an attempt to shut down a debate that people on the left don't really like. it's an attempt to find a bogeyman. it's vladimir putin, it's dominic cummings, it's nigel farage, it's tommy robinson. a lot of those figures, by the way, like reform, you know, they wouldn't actually be in our national political life . had the elite political life. had the elite class in this country actually controlled migration. i find it bizarre that the people who are going to the reform headquarters are often the same people shouting at me on twitter and x for calling out mass immigration. the reality is, nigel farage did not cause the riots and the protests. mass immigration caused the riots and the protests. a sense of not being safe in the country caused

the riots and the protests. so if you don't want nigel farage in british politics, why don't you deal with mass immigration and the collapse of our borders, >> nigel farage was not responsible for it. but i think some of the things he said for example, what are we not being told? we're extremely dangerous and ill judged. and i think he needs to think about that, but, you know, do you think then, that nick lowles, the head of hope not hate, should also be dean hope not hate, should also be dealt with for spreading misinformation about people throwing acid at muslim people? >> yes. yeah. because i haven't seen any. that's great. bill i wish you were in the labour cabinet because i haven't seen any frontline labour politicians on matthew across the board. >> however, something i learned as a minister working on the prevent strategy is there is only one dividing line you can have in terms of what's acceptable and what's not acceptable, and that's violence and the advocacy of violence. so i might disagree with people protesting outside reform's headquarters, but unless they're committing acts of violence, i don't think you can do anything. >> so bill, that's really interesting. so in which case you would strongly disagree with

the labour government's push to ban legal but harmful content on social media. >> we'll come on to discuss that. i've got question marks against it. and i actually think by the time we get to detailed legislation that won't see the light. there you go. >> he's teed up the next thing, perfectly for me. coming up after the break, we will get into this whole kind of hate speech censorship online. nigel farage. he's had a lot to say on that. we'll play a clip from him and we'll see in

hello there. michelle dewberry with you till 7:00 tonight alongside me, matt goodwin and bill rammell, one of my viewers on twitter. he actually says , on twitter. he actually says, yes, michelle, we are shouting at the tv, but we're shouting at you. michelle, a criminal is a criminal. no matter what the age. being 12 is no excuse. that is me told. look nigel farage,

he was speaking out last night. take a listen to what he had to say. >> well, you're engaged in something like that. you can neven something like that. you can never, ever guarantee that what you say is 100% true. you may think it's true at the time. you may ask a question whether it's true now. starmer, by cracking down on that, poses, i think, the biggest threat to free speech we've seen in our history, an elon musk elon musk has caught wind of this. you see, i think the reason that musk, the reason musk has been going for starmer over the last week, is he knows what the reaction is going to be. >> tough talk in there from nigel farage. agree with it. matt >> i do actually i do agree with with nigel farage in the sense that i think what we've seen after the riots and protests and what we're going to see in the months and years ahead under the labour government, is a concerted attempt to undermine free speech, free expression in this country. some of the things that have come out already over the last week, i find absolutely

remarkable. i actually wrote about them this morning. you know, tech companies being forced to monitor legal but harmful speech on social media, children being taught about fake news and misinformation. i've got some questions. who defines what is fake news? who defines what is fake news? who defines what is fake news? who defines what is misinformation? because it wasn't that long ago. keir starmer and others were telling us that the vote for brexit was based on misinformation. i mean, i'm concerned about this attempt to restrict the public square and coming down hard on people who incite violence and murder got no issue with that at all. coming down on people for expressing unfashionable, unpopular views and opinions . unpopular views and opinions. well, if you want to inflame a people, if you want to get them angry and resentful, you want to get them to backlash. that's the way to do it, because i think we're looking more and more like a sort of crazy tinpot dictatorship than a serious, representative liberal democracy. that's confident in its ideas and its people. >> is that fair? this is not about clamping down on free speech, but there are some really serious concerns about

the social media companies. you know, under the ofcom overview of tv companies. michelle, if matthew and i come on this show and say something that is demonstrably false, you have a duty to intervene and correct us. there is no such compulsion on social media and i think that's a real cause for concern. and when you see someone like musk, who's you know, made x a sewer compared to what it was before he took over, better , before he took over, better, well, he's allowed a whole range of people putting forward fake news conspiracy theories that i think is a real cause for concern. and, matthew, when you talk about , concern. and, matthew, when you talk about, you concern. and, matthew, when you talk about , you know, the talk about, you know, the teaching of fake news, what bridget phillipson, the education secretary, was talking about was critical thinking. you know , reasoning, questioning know, reasoning, questioning received assumptions. i'm sure in your courses at kent university, you've got such components about critical thinking. and it's absolutely

right . it's the way you enable right. it's the way you enable young people to spot lies, to spot fake news. and the other thing is, it's really good for your employability skills. why? >> why am i suspicious of bridget phillipson and labour on free speech? could it be because they just dumped the higher education free speech act with no debate? they just quietly got rid of it with no discussion because it was performative? >> no, it wasn't. >> no, it wasn't. >> it was about i work in universities, bill. i helped and i was vice chancellor of the university. that legislation, it was about protecting and preserving free speech. what it meant was if people like kathleen stock were sacked from their job kathleen stock were sacked from theirjob in kathleen stock were sacked from their job in a kathleen stock were sacked from theirjob in a university, that university could be fined for violating free speech. now labour's got rid of it. >> let's move back to this question about hold on before you move on the 1980s. there is free speech, speech legislation in place that margaret thatcher brought in. and every university should be upholding that. you don't need new legislation. >> the problem the problem is as as anybody who's seen the cases in recent years, kathleen stark , in recent years, kathleen stark, eric kaufman, noah karl, jordan

peterson, i could go on and on and on. joe phoenix, helen joyce i can keep going all day long is universities aren't reforming themselves . we need to work to themselves. we need to work to protect free speech. but back to the issue at hand. the problem i have here, can i just ask, do you concede that actually people with, people that have views, other people may disagree with, that they have been deplatformed universities and stuff. >> oh god. >> oh god. >> god, you look so you do read some of the stuff i've written, the lectures i've given. i'm a passionate defender of free speech, but you don't need new legislation. >> well, well, let's agree to disagree . one of the issues that disagree. one of the issues that we've got on the left of politics, i would argue, is they've embraced this identity politics, woke worldview. and the problem with that before everybody kind of says, oh, well, what does this mean? this word woke? let's be clear. left wing movements. now view minorities as sacred. you can't challenge minorities . you can't challenge minorities. you can't criticise minorities. and so what people on the left do is they erode free speech and free expression on the altar of social justice because they want to protect minorities against

what they call emotional harm. so what happens is, as we're seeing now with the labour party, they're going to expand the definition of islamophobia. so you won't really be able to criticise islam. you won't be able to ask meaningful questions about the role of islam within western societies. they were already expanding terms like far right to discredit and delegitimize millions of ordinary people. they're now saying they're going to clamp down on legal but harmful speech on social media. that is insane . on social media. that is insane. thatis on social media. that is insane. that is something that i would expect north korea to do , not a expect north korea to do, not a modern, representative liberal democracy . and they're also democracy. and they're also making it clear that they're going to be using a much tougher stance with law and order criminality to go after children in some cases, for voicing these unfashionable views. i don't think that's on. i don't think this is what the british people i'm going to let bill rammell respond to that. >> but i do, ido,i i do, i need

hello everybody. i'm michelle dewberry until 7:00 tonight. former labour minister bill rammell and matt goodwin, the pollster and academic, alongside me, bill rammell. do you want to respond to what he was saying before the break? >> yeah, the problem with matthew is he takes some things that are said by the worst excesses of the far left and then represents them as the mainstream within this labour government. it's not true. however, you went on to bring in legal but harmful laws. legal but harmful. and i said it. no, i said it earlier. it's been floated out there. i will be very surprised if ultimately that comes into legislation. >> do you think it should do. >> do you think it should do. >> no, no, because it's the point i made earlier. the only line you can draw is violence and advocacy of violence. anything else in terms of what's acceptable and what's not not acceptable and what's not not acceptable is impossible to enforce. >> yeah, i just don't want to see speech curtailed . that is see speech curtailed. that is not illegal. we have something, you know, the common law english common law, which which the legislation that i suspect

labour will end up bringing forward directly conflicts with that. but if it's not, if it's not banned, if it's not illegal, it should not be prohibited. >> but anyway, i saw someone write on twitter at the weekend, someone i know. >> they said, before they when they're typing stuff now, they panic and think, is this going to get me arrested, and loads of people were replying were going, well, don't be racist. and don't be this and don't be that and you won't get arrested like the soviet union. and i thought, what is this kind of. but then i thought, actually, perhaps that is the plan to make people if you don't conform to a certain viewpoint in society, to get you uneasy, to make you on edge, so that you're kind of not perhaps writing things that other people wish that you weren't. obviously, i'm not talking about inciting racial hatred, etc, look, trevor phillips, he's come under a bit of a criticism for something that he wrote. matt goodwin, tell us more. >> yeah. i mean, i think , you >> yeah. i mean, i think, you know, this is a piece by trevor phillips in the sunday times. i sort of, to be honest, think it's not trevor's greatest piece. he's very dismissive of the people who are protesting about the issues around migration and

multiculturalism. over the last week or two, he suggests they should be sent to rwanda, he kind of he calls them ignorant. >> risk is stickers and stickers. illiterates, mix of football, hooligans, bored teens. >> and the thing is, i've known trevor for a long time, so i sort of know there's a version of trevor that doesn't really think this, but i think what he's doing is what a lot of liberal commentators routinely do, which is give a signal to other liberal commentators that, hey, i'm not really like these guys. i'm going to clamp down on all of these guys. i think he could have written something more nuanced. and this is what's frustrating me about the national debate over the last week. we could have had some really interesting , reflective really interesting, reflective comment pieces and long essays that really did pull the curtain back and say, okay, what is this about? and instead, i don't know about? and instead, i don't know about you , but bill, but i about you, but bill, but i looked at the newspapers this week and i thought, wow, they're either scared of intervening in this debate. they don't want this debate. they don't want this debate. they don't want this debate to happen, or people aren't willing to come forward and say, actually, i don't think this is just about far right

thuggery. i think there's something deeper going on in britain compared with blm, compared with the 2011 rise. i remember the guardian writers in 2011 falling over themselves to say this is about austerity, this is public sector cuts. this is about what the tory government have done this time around. it's like crickets. >> well, i was surprised by trevor. i mean, trevor is someone who's got a history of standing up against what you might describe as the orthodox race relations industry. so i was surprised by it. however, there was a kernel of truth within it. as i've looked at some of these court cases, these court cases, a lot of the people limited education, limited intellect, a lot of them with drug and alcohol problems. >> how do you know their intellect ? intellect? >> that's what their actual barristers have put forward on their behalf in the court. and their behalf in the court. and the point i'm making is they weren't far right protesters. they were sucked along in the protest. it still means they're culpable and you have to take action against them. but i've got more sympathy for those

people than those who were actually doing it from a genuine far right perspective. >> yeah, but you say you've got sympathy, sympathy for those people because before you even knew who those people were, i mean, you're describing them now because they've been charged and you're talking about things that their defence barrister has said even before. all of those things were known about people. the label, the blanket label, i've got to say, of far right thuggery that was deployed instantly and consistently by the government and many, many, many, many people still to this day will have issues with that. >> but michel, the riots were organised by the far right. they were organised by. >> how do you know? >> how do you know? >> go online, look at the posts from people like tommy robinson, laurence fox the other day, the guy, the fella from hope not hate. >> and remember everyone, they're supposed to be the good guys and all this. apparently they wrote back and said, one of them put a tweet up and said that the list of 100, planned protests was a hoax. but hey, guess what? it's all great because now people are talking anti—racist, which he then has patrick christys was acknowledging he retracted. graham has said, michel, how

come no one's worried about the feelings of the jewish community for a long time in this country? million dollar question. thanks for your company everyone. see you tomorrow night. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news >> good evening. welcome to your latest gb news, weather update brought to you from the met office. clear skies for many tonight will make for good viewing conditions of the meteor shower. it's going to be a fresher night as well compared to last night, but rain will spread into western areas such as this area of low pressure developing out to the west will drag in the next weather front. this cold front, though still clearing across the far southeast through this evening, southeast through this evening, so still a risk of some thundery downpours at least at first this evening. but then it will turn much drier and clearer across the whole of the uk . as i said, the whole of the uk. as i said, good viewing conditions for the meteor shower for many of us, while it's dark temperatures falling away a little lower than last night quite widely 12 to 14 degrees in towns and cities

still a little bit hotter and more humid across the south and east. however, now the breeze is going to pick up across western coasts through tuesday morning we could see some fairly heavy outbreaks of rain at first across parts of west wales, southwest england spreading into northern ireland and western areas of scotland as well eastern areas, though , are eastern areas, though, are bright and sunny, start to the day. temperatures around 15 or 16 degrees with lighter winds feeling quite pleasant in that sunshine. first thing, however , sunshine. first thing, however, the winds will start to pick up across northwestern areas around this area of low pressure. western scotland in particular seeing a pretty breezy afternoon and this wet weather will push further inland quite slowly, but it will continue to bring cloudier skies to much of wales, southwest england, northern england, much of scotland too, turning brighter behind it across northern ireland and plenty of sunshine through a lot of the day across eastern areas of the day across eastern areas of england. and here, temperatures still climbing towards the high 20s, so still a pretty warm day across eastern areas of england tomorrow. that wet weather will linger across eastern areas of england, though

through wednesday morning and elsewhere it will be a much dner elsewhere it will be a much drier and brighter day, still feeling fairly pleasant in the sunshine, but nowhere near as warm as it is at the moment. and then , looking ahead to thursday, then, looking ahead to thursday, it looks like a more widely wetter day. however, the sunshine is set to return for friday. temperatures around average for the rest of the week. >> that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news

>>a >> a very good evening to you. i'm martin daubney and this is gbn. tonight on today's show , gbn. tonight on today's show, one of london's busiest tourist hotspots was struck with terror today after two people, including an 11 year old girl, were stabbed in broad daylight in leicester square. we'll be getting the latest on that story in just a moment. and a former

m16 in just a moment. and a former mi6 officer warns that nigel farage may be on a watch list and scrutinised following rioting across the uk. if this is true, security services could be in the breach of the wilson doctrine. plus, riots have erupted in a small norfolk village over the union flag, and some say it signifies nationalism and is a symbol against immigration. of course they do. well, we'll be speaking to a former mp who called for the former government to create a minister for the protection of flags . flags. so we've got an action packed show, and it's your show as much as mine. so please do get in touch with your thoughts on tonight's topics by visiting gbnews.com/yoursay. get them in and i'll read out the best before the end of the show. but before the end of the show. but before we get cracking, it's your headlines. here's sam francis.