a delivery driver has been killed trying to protect his van that someone was trying to steal in broad daylight. is it just me, or are criminals getting more and more brazen? also, the government is apparently planning to increase social housing rents by more than rates of inflation. do you think that is the right move? all of that . is the right move? all of that. all of that and more. but first, the 6:00 news headlines . the 6:00 news headlines. >> michelle. thank you. good evening. it's 6:00, and i'm cameron walker here in the newsroom. and we got some breaking news to bring you now. police have named a man killed in his own home by his pet xl bully. the victim was david daintree, who was 53 years old. specially trained officers are supporting his family. emergency services were called last night to a house in ashley court in

accrington in lancashire, after reports of a dog attacking somebody inside the xl bully was shot dead by police, who claims the dog still posed a significant risk to others. an investigation is ongoing . the investigation is ongoing. the bodies of british tech entrepreneur mike lynch and his daughter hannah have been found in the yacht , which sank off in the yacht, which sank off sicily. that's according to the daily telegraph. no formal identification has yet taken place. four bodies have been recovered from the wreck of the superyacht this afternoon, which sank on monday. this takes the death toll so far to five people. two others are still missing. more details on this story coming up in dewbs& co. that's good. police have launched a murder investigation after a delivery driver was involved in a collision during an attempted theft of his van, west yorkshire police said . west yorkshire police said. officers were called last night following reports of a man found seriously injured in wortley in leeds. officers found the victim unconscious, with members of the pubuc unconscious, with members of the public trying to help him. he

was given emergency treatment by ambulance staff but was pronounced dead at the scene . pronounced dead at the scene. four people who died in a house fire in bradford, including three children, have been named by west yorkshire police as 29 year old briony gawith and destiny, who was nine, oscar, who was five, and aubrey burtle, who was five, and aubrey burtle, who was five, and aubrey burtle, who was just 22 months old. a murder investigation has been launched after the incident, which happened in the early hours of this morning on westbury road. a 39 year old man was arrested at the scene on suspicion of murder and was taken to hospital with critical injuries. superintendent lucy leadbeater believes the fire was started on purpose, whilst enquiries are at their early stages, we believe that the fire was started deliberately and this incident was domestic related. >> i would appeal to anyone who was in the westbury road area at the time of the incident, who has cctv or doorbell footage to come forward . come forward. >> the home office has outlined

plans to tackle illegal immigration, including deploying 100 new intelligence officers to target people smuggling gangs, the home secretary has announced the home secretary has announced the new measures to boost britain's security and to target , britain's security and to target, dismantle and disrupt organised immigration crime networks. yvette cooper has also outlined the government has new plans for the government has new plans for the next six months to achieve the next six months to achieve the highest rate of removals. of those who do not have the right to be in the uk, including failed asylum seekers , reopening failed asylum seekers, reopening immigration removal centres in hampshire and oxfordshire is also planned, but the shadow home secretary james cleverly, suggests the labour government isn't actually doing enough. well, those are the latest gb news headlines. for now i'm cameron walker. now it's back to michelle for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts .

gbnews.com forward slash alerts. >> thank you very much for that, cameron got that story about those children and their mum, that deliberate arson attack. just what is wrong with people ? just what is wrong with people? what is this society coming to? absolutely devastating story that i'm michelle dewberry and i'm with you until 7:00 tonight alongside me, my panel. i've got matt goodwin, the pollster and academic, and zoe grunwald, the political journalist and broadcaster. good evening to both of you. you're very welcome tonight, as are each and every one of you at home. what is on your mind tonight? i'm going to reissue my appeal . does anyone reissue my appeal. does anyone know of anything good happening in society at the moment? please tell me. if you do, i'd love to hear your stories. there's lots that i want to talk to you about tonight, general. state of the nation. that story is well in the news headlines about that delivery driver who's been killed trying to stop his van from being getting stolen in broad daylight. i'll come on to that a bit later on in the

programme. and i'm asking you a simple question. are criminals just becoming more and more brazen? if so, to tell me why you think that is, i can get in touch with me all the usual ways. email gbviews@gbnews.com. you can go on to twitter or x and get me there. or of course you can go to the website gbnews.com slash yourself wherever you are. you're very welcome tonight. look, of course you might remember if you watch the programme. last night we had a friend of mike lynch, the man that was feared potentially dead when his yacht had sunk off the coast of sicily . that story has coast of sicily. that story has developed over the course of the day, and i can cross live now to gb news reporter adam cherry live from sicily. bring us up to speed with the latest adam. >> so four bodies have been discovered in the vessel today. that's in addition to the one discovered on monday. initially, when the boat sank in the early hours. it's been an extraordinary day here. it started relatively quiet . started relatively quiet. questions over the rescue, the

efficiency of that rescue operation, why it's taken so long, why they weren't able to access the vessel, it seems actually the arrival of this underwater drone was the decider that enabled them to access the boat, go from cabin to cabin and find these four bodies, two of which we understand belong to mike lynch and his daughter hannah. although that is not officially confirmed by the authorities. that's according to the telegraph . it does take the telegraph. it does take a little bit longer for the authorities to officially announce this, because they have to speak to the families . the to speak to the families. the families are staying locally, so that may arrive within the next 24 hours. but i stress again, four bodies discovered today. we suspect two of them belong to mike lynch and his daughter, hannah. >> thank you very much, adam, for that very sad update. thoughts? of course , with all thoughts? of course, with all the family and friends of anyone that's been affected. it's as i said last night, we just never

know what is around the corner, do we? life can literally change in an instant. let's talk then. some of the top news today yvette cooper. of course, the home secretary. she has been talking tough about her plans to tackle essentially border security, illegal migration and so on and so forth . she reckons so on and so forth. she reckons she can deport over 14,000 illegal immigrants over the next six months. cor blimey, that would be apparently the fastest deportation if it happens since 2018. that was when theresa may was the prime minister. she's been coming up with lots of different ideas. matt goodwin increased detention centre spaces, increased staff more coordination and cooperation with things like europol and so on and so forth. your thoughts? >> well, i mean, it sounds good, doesn't it? because ultimately the british people both want and deserve control. but let's play the numbers game for a minute. yvette cooper is saying she's going to get 14,000 people outside the country. well, it sounds good, except 19,000 have arrived so far this year,

131,000 have arrived since 2018, and labour is going to basically give amnesty, i would estimate, to somewhere around 50 to 60,000 people who who have already entered the country illegally. so labour's plan on illegal migration isn't going to work because they've removed the rwanda plan. they've amended the illegal migration act, which basically has removed a deterrent that would otherwise have stopped people from coming oven have stopped people from coming over. so the small boats are going to keep on coming, the numbers are going to keep going up.and numbers are going to keep going up. and what yvette cooper is basically doing is like, imagine you're in a bath and you've got this mug and you're scooping up some water and you're throwing it out, but both the taps are on and they're going full steam and the bath is being full of is being filled with water constantly. that's basically what's happening in this country with the illegal migration crisis. this isn't going to work. >> get off that fence. i think what i'm taking there is you've got no faith in those plans whatsoever. zoe, are you any more optimistic? >> not particularly. no, i think it's going to be incredibly hard to get a grip on illegal

migration, unless you open safe and legal routes, the only way you're going to stop people from making those dangerous journeys and being smuggled over the border over the english channel is if you actually give proper, regulated ways for people to come across and claim asylum, from which countries from whichever country they need to claim asylum from, you can have systems in place. we have done in the past. we've got one for ukrainian refugees, refugees at the minute. otherwise what you have is an incentive for people smugglers to create these criminal rings where they take money off people and they put them in these dinghies that are overpopulated, and then they end up dying in the channel, and then they arrive on our shores. we don't have anywhere to put them. it doesn't work. the only way you can stop this at the source is by making sure there is a proper, functioning asylum system, which currently i would argue we don't have. but go on in you come . in you come. >> i have some questions. just a couple of questions. i know you're supposed to ask question. >> i've got loads of questions, but i have one question. i'm happy to relax. you go. nobody

on the left. >> nobody in the labour party can tell me. okay. safe and legal routes. so how many people? what's the limit? how many people are we going to allow through safe and legal routes? and if i'm a people smuggler and i hear, well, the uk has got safe and legal routes, why would i then suddenly close up shop, stop my business and say, well, they've got safe and legal routes now. i guess now i'm not going to make 50,000 or 100,000 or 200,000 by smuggling these guys in, because all i need is a dinghy and some lifeboats. why would i stop my business? i would just keep going. >> if you are an asylum seeker, if you're someone who wants to claim refuge in another country, will you apply for an asylum visa? or would you go to a country and claim asylum? or would you put your life and your family's life at risk and get in a dinghy? quite clearly, people only do that when they are so desperate and they feel like they've got no other means to get to the uk. i would argue, i think i do think you're right. i don't think it would totally cut it off at the source. there's still going to be people who want to make that journey and get into the country, possibly without being you know, without being known to the authorities.

but i would argue that definitely the majority of people want to make that journey in a safe and regulated way. and that's why you would definitely lessen the demand for people smugglers. in terms of numbers, i don't know. i'm not an expert on migration. i don't know how many people are going to need to claim asylum over the next few years. but working with the eu and france, which is another thing that labour has set out to do, is the right way forward. because only through international cooperation can you actually deal with the migration crisis. >> the only the only way you can solve this crisis. if we're being really brutally honest with the british people about this, because i seem to be one of the only people like you who's brutally honest about this issue is we need to leave the european convention on human rights also, by the way, we can deport foreign nationals who are committing crimes in this country. we've got 12,000 in our prisons. we'll get on to that in a minute. we need to leave the echr. we need to reform the human rights act. and we need an active deterrent like the rwanda plan. but let's maybe call it something else. now, if we have all of those things in place, we have a chance at saving ourselves £5 billion, which is what we're spending every year on our asylum system. £5 billion

that could be spent on, i don't know, those northern communities that were rioting two weeks ago because they feel like those people won't stop trying to make those journeys. >> people are fleeing war torn areas. they need. they have they might have families in the uk, they might speak english. there are plenty of reasons why people are plenty of reasons why people are still going to be desperate to come to the uk. the best way you can solve this, it's not going to stop just because you have something like the rwanda plan in place. that's not going to work. if you leave the echr that opens up all sorts of difficulties over our international obligations, we'll make ourselves an international pariah. we don't want that. the only way you're going to deal with this crisis that involves all the countries in the world is to work together. what you want to do is remove us from all of those relationships. that's not going to work. it's not going to work. no, i do, i do. >> i want to put the british people before everybody else. that's that's my starting point. >> so the best way to do that is to work with other countries. that's the only way you're going to. >> that sounds very abstract and vague to me. there is a very clear plan. >> even people like the borders and stop people from making that journey. >> i never actually thought i would say this, but i will. i actually agree with dominic cummings on this. actually. i

think cummings has put forward a very good plan for how we would, strengthen and fix the borders, as we saw with the writing of the plan, because people might not know what that is. leave the echr reform the human rights act. and i think it's fair to say, have an active deterrent alongside those two things, because if we don't, michelle, what we've seen recently, the immigration protests, which is exactly what they were by the way, not just, you know, far right thuggery or whatever the labour party wants to call them. they're going to grow and grow and grow. we have to regain control of our borders, because if we don't , the british people if we don't, the british people are going to get more and more frustrated and fed up with the state of politics on both the left and the right. >> can i ask you a question on this safe and legal route? because i hear this all the time. have you had safe and legal routes? but then, i mean, surely if you've got an island with finite space, then it's not logical nor practical to offer every single country in the land, because which country now has not got some form of turmoil within it? i mean, you can probably count those countries on a, you know, a small piece of papen on a, you know, a small piece of paper. so you can't just indefinitely offer safe and legal routes to all countries in the land. but for example, we've

got a safe and legal route in afghanistan. but when you look at the country of origin, apparently of these people crossing on these boats, a large number of these people are coming from afghanistan . so coming from afghanistan. so there is a safe and legal route there, and they're not using it. why? >> well, i'm not quite sure about the ins and outs of the afghanistan, but my understanding was only afghanis who'd worked with the british government. well, there's criteria attached, of course, because you can't just you wouldn't . wouldn't. >> i mean, maybe you would suggest a safe and legal route. that's boundless. no criteria. but you wouldn't suggest that which is why. >> no. and as i was saying before, this is why this cannot before, this is why this cannot be done in isolation. you have to work with other countries. and what i would suggest, like when we were in the eu, is you have a quota or you have a set number or you have agreements as to what your kind of criteria would look like, and you work with other countries. so say if you have, you know, the reason the small boats crisis has really taken off since we left the eu is because we can no longer send people back to the first country they they arrived in. when they joined the european union. now people smugglers know if they put them on the boat and they come here,

they can't be removed from the uk. >> so why is illegal migration crisis just as bad in many other eu member states? why is italy, france , france and others all france, france and others all deaung france, france and others all dealing with the same issue? if the eu has the answer to this problem because, well , because problem because, well, because we know that there is turmoil across the world, we know there is conflict. >> we know there is resource scarcity. we know there is increasing, climate issues increasing, climate issues increasing environmental issues. this isn't there is going to be mass migration. we need to figure out how we deal with that . figure out how we deal with that. and i think the way we best deal with that. and, you know, james cleverly said this. he went to the usa, he went to washington, and he spoke about it with diplomats there. he said, the only way we're going to deal with this is if we work together. people aren't going to stop trying to flee danger. >> but pointing for me personally, pointing to the conservative party as having the answer to this riddle, a riddle on the right and the left. >> they that they tend to agree with this. >> we need to think completely outside the box. >> i'll play james cleverly in a second. >> we need to build fortress britain basically, we need to start putting the british people in front of international.

>> i think that's naive and i think that is no, listen, when people are rioting and protesting and smashing up their communities because they're so frustrated with not having what politicians promised them, which was control. >> i mean, this is the thing, zoe. this is what people were promised. lower migration control of the borders. they were given the opposite of that. no wonder they're frustrated and fed up. i mean, sorry, but, you know, westminster needs to look at itself. it's utterly ridiculous. >> i don't have to justify the behaviour that we saw. >> i'm not just. >> i'm not just. >> i'm not saying that people didn't get what they were asked. they asked for , and therefore they asked for, and therefore they went out and they were lied to by both left and right. >> they were lied to. >> they were lied to. >> but now they have a new government that is clearly trying to implement various measures to bring down immigration. i don't think the things you're speaking about will work either . will work either. >> if yvette cooper if i could have if i could have one conversation with yvette cooper, here's what i would say. apart from don't do interviews with your husband on mainstream television, i would say start to be real with the british people because we know 14,000 removals is not going to come close to the problem facing this country. start being honest with the british people about the scale of this problem. say you're

about to give amnesty to 50 to 60,000 people in the country say we have no serious deterrent. say that 14,000 isn't even scratching the surface. just be honest with people because i've watched this for 20 years. politician after politician, lying and misleading on the conservative party and in the labour party, somebody in this country has to be real with the british people about immigration. they have to be honest and they have to say, look, this is what it's going to take to solve this issue, because if they don't, we're going to have more of the protests, we're going to have more of the riots. >> but don't you also agree that in many ways, immigration, we need immigration? i mean, we've seen how we need it in our health service. we've seen how it enriches immigration, though. well, you can talk about the various you know, you can talk about the numbers and you can have debates over that, and you can have debates over, you know, how it's going to impact various industries. but overall, immigration has been a net plus to the uk. i see that. >> i you know what, there was a poll last weekend and they asked the british people, do you think this was opinion, which i think is fair to say, you know, credible pollster? they asked people, do you think immigration has been good for the national

economy? more people said it's not been good, but i would argue been good. and they asked the same question about our cultural life and public services. what we have in this country now is a policy of mass immigration. it's an extreme policy of mass immigration because it doesn't reflect the interests of british people. that is building us a low wage, low skill economy that is dependent on cheap migrant workers to keep big business to happy, also, by the way, keep liberals in london happy because they love this feeling of moral righteousness that comes with saying, i like immigration, i want more of it. well, guess what? they're not going to face the costs of mass immigration. it's going to be the working class. it's going to be people outside of london and university towns. it's going to be people in those towns that were rioting and protesting the last couple of weeks, because not only have they had mass immigration and their economies hollowed out, but they were then given the grooming scandal on top of that, and they were told that actually they were racist if they raised any questions about it. and i think that's bang out of order. i think people need to be treated with respect in this country by their political leaders. >> i mean, i think the part of the problem we have is that we have i mean, it's not true that we haven't been speaking about

immigration. we've been speaking about immigration in almost every general election we've had over the last 20 years. there has been several occurrences where immigration has actually led. >> but they've lied, though, zoe. they've been talking about it. they've all promised it. they've put it in their manifestos. they've applied numbers to it. tens of thousands. but they lied. they didn't deliver it . didn't deliver it. >> okay, but but what we have here is we have, you know , you here is we have, you know, you say a low wage, a low skilled economy dependent on cheap laboun economy dependent on cheap labour, but we have needed immigration for various things in this country. i mean, we've needed it in our healthcare sector. we've needed it in our hospitality sector. we have seen the damage that has been done to those sectors, tightening certain parts of the immigration system with controlled skilled immigration. >> so was matt. and i think one of the challenges that yvette cooperis of the challenges that yvette cooper is trying to, i've got to say, i don't believe this plan is going to work either. one of the things she would argue it's all about, you know, the crossings. and then also one of the things she was getting tough on talking tough on anyway, is about businesses that are employing people illegally, in, in the dark economy that they

shouldn't be apparently she's going to clamp down on that as well. >> you know, here's a remarkable thing about britain. is it a quick thing? i bet nobody knew this. it's not a criminal offence to hire illegal migrants. do you know that? it's not a criminal offence? are you sure? yep that's one thing we could do right now. you can be fined for doing it, but it is not technically a criminal offence. currently, i mean, we're just a soft touch, right? i mean, the whole system is completely ridiculous. >> oh, well, i've got to say, i did not know that that is news to me, look, after the break, we'll perhaps continue this conversation. but i also ask you, i want to ask you as well, what's going on when it comes to crime in this country, we've just been talking about that delivery van driver who was killed trying to protect his van. that was being stolen in broad daylight. criminals. why are they becoming so brazen? and where on earth are we going to put all these we keep filling our prisons with anyone that's tweeted things that

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry with esol seven alongside me. mark goodwin, the pollster and academic, and zoe grunwald, the political journalist and broadcaster. we're trying to get to the bottom of that, that revelation that matt has just shared before the break about whether or not it is a criminal offence. i think there's a bit of confusion about this because apparently you can be prosecuted , you can you can be prosecuted, you can go to prison, you can be disbarred as a company director, as well. i think the moral of the story, right, is don't employ people that don't have the legal right to work in this country. i think if you stay on that side of the rules, i think you'll be all right. so, look, let's talk criminals, though, shall we? because, did you see the story? and if you didn't, what were you doing? because we've just been playing it in the 6:00 news bulletins of the amazon delivery driver. a guy grafting, trying to provide for himself. possibly his family as well, delivering parcels. some criminal decided . you know what? criminal decided. you know what? this is my moment. decided to

steal his van. and many of these people of course, are often self—employed. their vans are their only way of making money when they're delivering these parcels. he decided he wasn't going to have any of it. dived into the to van trying to protect his way of making a living , and the guy drove off living, and the guy drove off and killed him. obviously. now a murder probe is underway. now, this got me thinking, zoe . this got me thinking, zoe. right. and awful things happen in society. but it feels to me this is my feeling that we're seeing more and more horrendous crimes happening on different levels, different scales, in broad daylight when people are around, when people are watching and the criminals don't seem to care. yeah. >> i mean, what can you say about this story? it's absolutely appalling. it's horrific. and you're right, it feels like even just over the last few weeks, we've had so many incidents of people being subject to awful, brutal

violence in broad daylight. i don't know what what is happening. i cannot relate in any in any way to this. you know, it is appalling. i mean, just from my there's no fear. there's no fear of law and order, you know, just from from my feeling of, you know, living in london, for example, i'm going to take a really minor example compared to this, just, you know, everyone knows someone who's had their phone nicked out of their hand in broad daylight in front of everyone and nobody's it's, you know, nobody can stop them. there's almost this kind of sense that the police can't or won't do anything. and i think that is kind of what breeds this brazenness. i mean, this is on another level to having your phone still, but it's just it feels like people have lost their faith in the police's ability to catch criminals and prevent this kind of level of violence. >> one of the things that i can't help but notice at the moment is this obsession with everyone. quite frankly, it seems to be politicians, cps, social media, look at this guy. this guy has just been sent to prison for two years for chucking a can of coke at a

police officer or whatever. i don't condone, obviously violence and i don't condone rioting and all the rest of it, and i might be being flippant with my timeframes, but these prison sentences for these rioters, in some cases, these children, and there seems to be such a sense of pride that we're jailing these people for things that they wrote on facebook or things that they did when they was a bit drunk in a heat of the moment, which i don't condone. and that's one side. and then all of these other kind of things don't seem to have as much energy , attention, priority much energy, attention, priority and fear. those criminals are not afraid of what they're doing , not afraid of what they're doing, clearly. do you think we've got our priorities right? i guess there's a question where i'm going with this. >> no, we don't. i mean, we are we are in a two tier society where we treat some things much harsher than we treat other things. i mean, look, if you if you just consider a few of the stories that have come out in recent months. so when the labour government is about to release thousands of prisoners who have only served 40% of their sentences, we've had

reports that the police have not solved any crimes, any low level burglaries , robberies in their burglaries, robberies in their areas over the last year. we've got mass brawls between machete wielding gangs taking place in places such as southend on sea. we've got children being stabbed, we've got children being blown up at pop concerts not that long ago, and then we've got the stabbings in southport and it's all adding to this. i think, more fundamental point that many people feel , point that many people feel, which is that the state is not delivering on one of the most bafic delivering on one of the most basic functions of the state, which is to keep people safe. and if a state cannot keep its people safe, whether by controlling the borders, whether by putting people into prisons, whether by building enough prisons to ensure they stay in prison, then people will rapidly start to lose confidence and trust in the state. and that is what is happening. people are looking at the police, they're looking at the police, they're looking at the government, they're looking at the institutions, and they're asking themselves the same question why can you not keep the british

people safe and that is taking us, i think, michel, into some very dangerous waters, actually, because as we've seen when people were protesting, when they were rioting infused in all of that was not just petty criminality or thuggery. it was a sense that people had to somehow take things into their own hands, because the state could not be trusted to keep them safe . them safe. >> i do believe that there's been a monumental failing with this current government. zahawi to acknowledge, and i would put it as basic as that. they don't even acknowledge the sentiments and feelings and anger that have taken people to the streets of britain. i'm not talking about people, obviously. it goes and i feel like i need to repeat myself all the time on this. it goes without saying that you shouldn't set fire to hotels with people in. it goes without saying you shouldn't be violent. whatever, whatever. obviously that's all wrong. nobody would, think that that was the right behaviour. but there's been a complete refusal to even acknowledge people's concerns.

and the primary one, as matt say , and the primary one, as matt say, is about their safety within society. why do you think that ? society. why do you think that? well, do you agree with that? >> i don't know if i do agree because i think there is a massive difference between being somebody who's concerned about whether the immigration system in this country is broken and thinking you should take to the streets and set fire to a hotel with refugees inside. i think there is a massive difference between that and i think, as we can see today, i mean, our first segment, most people on the streets were not setting fire to hotels, were they? no, but they were smashing. a lot of people were smashing. a lot of people were smashing. a lot of people were smashing up their communities. and if even if you went along on one of these riots and didn't actually throw a brick at a police officer, you were still standing side by side with people. >> but these things didn't start as riots. and this is where i think we need to be clear. people took to the streets in protest initially. what then happenedis protest initially. what then happened is that some of those protests descended into criminality. so let's be clear, most people that attended those protests were decent, law abiding people that did not get involved in that minority violence, which, of course, is unacceptable. >> i would not associate myself with people who are doing things

like that. and i think the majority of people in this country, people who have, might have legitimate concerns about whether the immigration system in this country is fit for purpose, would have looked at what was happening on the streets and thought that was abhorrent. and they don't know why people would do that. we our first segment, we spoke about labour's new crackdown on immigration. clearly, the government is responding to those concerns, but i think there is and we need to be really careful about this. there is a distinction between having those concerns about immigration and the sort of violence, far right violence we saw on the streets the other week. >> i think they're completely different when we call it far right violence, as though it was. >> i mean, people were threatening to burn down hotels with migrants throwing bricks at police, like a lot of these people have been children , like people have been children, like 13 year olds, like they're not. >> i mean, and this notion that there's this mass, you know, centrally organised, far right. i mean, who is this far right? because to me, what they all seem like, they all seem to be predominantly from their local areas. they don't seem to be mass coordinated. they seem to be very disparate people. so

what is this notion of this massive, far right thing? >> but okay, so why did people take to the streets to march towards mosques and protest immigration, when we know that the person who , stabbed those the person who, stabbed those girls was born in the uk? >> well, i'm not a spokesperson for the people that destroy places of worship, and i don't condone that behaviour . whatever condone that behaviour. whatever place of worship that is, whether it's a mosque, synagogue, whatever, that's completely wrong. but i guess if people were to say what they were doing, when you say we knew it was a person that was not a muslim or whatever at that point in time, lots of misinformation was circulating, and i think that was one of the things that's caused a lot of problems. social media misinformation. and i think that's where, you know , i think that's where, you know, people like keir starmer are trying to clamp down and get tougher. i mean, is that the right approach? >> i don't i don't think it is actually just about misinformation. the survey, since the riots and protests have shown us quite clearly that for two thirds of the country, they hold responsible. recent immigration policy in this

country. and i think for many people who participated in those events, it wasn't actually only about southport. remember what happened, just before southport? we had not about southport at all, though. we had we had just if i could just quickly finish, we had the young muslim lads , we had the young muslim lads, you know, beating up the police officers in manchester. we had the machete wielding gangs in southend on sea. we had the british army officer who was almost stabbed to death by the guy from a minority background. we have had an accumulation of cases, all of which have become lightning rods for this deeper question, which is what kind of society are we building now? you rightly say, why are they smashing up their own community? i put that back to you. i'd say, how desperate must somebody become to actually trash their own community, to try and express voice in a political system which isn't really listening to them anymore? how desperate must they have to become to smash up their own community to do that ? and i community to do that? and i think, yeah, there was a lot of

criminality. there was some thuggery among a minority of people. but, you know , we saw people. but, you know, we saw the videos online. there were women and children protesting peacefully. there were local residents saying, i don't want these people in my community. i don't know where they're from. i don't know where they're from. i don't know where they're from. i don't know what they believe. i don't know what they believe. i don't know what they believe. i don't know whether they're going to integrate. and i don't know whether the government's got an answer to this deeper question as to why can't you keep us safe? and i think that's what people were saying. why can't you keep us safe? >> this became a riot about immigration, and it targeted muslim people. neither of those things were a factor in the murder of those three girls. >> yeah, but but i it was it was, it was thuggery. >> it wasn't a legitimate protest about immigration. it descended into far right violence as people were marching towards mosques, they were trying to burn down hotels with refugees inside. the government now has introduced a package of measures to try and clamp down on immigration. and we're still saying they're not listening to people who have concerns about

immigration in this country. clearly they are. no, no. >> so firstly, the government is gaslighting the british people. the labour party is liberalising the immigration system while claiming it's giving people control. we know it's increasing migration from afghanistan. it's getting rid of the salary thresholds. it's got rid of rwanda and it's amended the illegal migration act. watch this space. i'm happy to be wrong. legal migration will go up . they will not solve the up. they will not solve the small boats. but to go back to the point about why these a minority of idiots and criminals were targeting mosques. everybody in this country objects to setting fires to hotels with asylum seekers in. that's not british. that is criminal. we should call it out. but it's an interesting point to ponder though, as well . why was ponder though, as well. why was the rioting so intense in places like rotherham? why was it so intense in places like telford? i would suggest one of the reasons why is because this issue became a lightning rod for people who have lived through the full effects of mass migration and a broken policy of multiculturalism that have seen things like the industrial scale rape of young white girls in the grooming scandals in towns like

rotherham, in towns like telford, and a lot of those people which you saw in the videos because they were saying they had had enough. enough is enough. they've been pushed. they felt to that point by a system that had told them for years they were racist, for raising concerns over those issues. that's not irresponsible to point to that. that's me saying we need to get all of this on the table and we need to have a conversation like we did after 2001 with the urban disturbances in oldham and burnley. and isn't it interesting in 2001, michelle, we had a very mature debate about community cohesion. now we can't even have a discussion about immigration because we're having a moral immigration. >> it'sjust having a moral immigration. >> it's just not true. we're always talking about immigration, not doing anything to regain. >> can i ask you a quick question? >> because you're describing all these riots and protests. no one would condone the behaviour, but you described all the far right people, the people that smashed up harehills. what do you describe those people as? them >> i would say they were also thugs. i would say anyone who smashes our rights. no, i wouldn't say there were far right. >> so why would you call these people that set to fire their

shops? because they were destroyed? because they were attacking communities of colour. >> they were destroying their own communities. yeah, but they were marching towards mosques and trying to burn down, for example, had horrendous riots. okay, the reason i used the word all those people as far. >> right. so then i'm interested if you call people from places like hull far right, if they're abusing police officers and all the rest of it, what do you then call people that were setting fire to harehills, their own community, setting fire to police things? why don't you call those illegal thuggery? >> i don't think you should ever smash up your communities. but there are different motivations for people doing this, right? and i think if it's interesting that this label of far right gets bandied around, but when the same behaviour , the same the same behaviour, the same criminality occurs and that's just thuggery, well, were there were there racist undertones to the hill riots? i have no idea. >> but do you know whether or not there were racist undertones? >> there were clearly the black lives matter protests , thuggery lives matter protests, thuggery because there was racism there. there was a lot of anti—white racism that was going on at that point. keir starmer aligned

himself with blm after nearly 30 police officers had been assaulted. i mean, it's a serious point, but this is what people are asking prosecutions. >> he also arrested people very, very quickly and in the same way that he did. now the exact same technique of backing people up very, very quickly to put an end to it. >> that's not to earlier, not after bucha in 2011. >> what do you think to this at home? i know my audience. you'll have strong opinions and you won't hold back. get in touch with me all the usual ways. after the break, we'll perhaps return to this, but i also want to move on to social housing. do you think it's that social housing could perhaps raise in

inflation? hi there, i'm michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. matt goodwin and zoe grunwald remain alongside me. sam has got in touch and said , sam has got in touch and said, michelle, those thugs are throwing stones and all the rest of it at the police deserve all they get. and he says, i've got a question for you. where are all the parents of these young

people? i've got to tell you, sam, many parents have actually been shopping their own kids to the police, and giving them the consequences that they deserve. i'm sure people will have opinions on that. look, i don't apologise. i have to say, if you're trying to get to the root of this whole far right notion, because i do. i feel like it just gets bandied around all the time. and often when you try and drill down, what it really means is that anyone that's white, working class that does stuff that they perhaps shouldn't do , that they perhaps shouldn't do, that's where the label gets appued that's where the label gets applied to. and i just think that's a little bit bizarre, to say the least. social housing rents, apparently they're going to go up by more than inflation. this is the government's plan to try and boost affordable housebuilding, improve services and so on and so forth. good idea matt , and so on and so forth. good idea matt, i'm very worried about the state of housing in the uk . the uk. >> i mean, we aren't really getting close to having a mature conversation about the housing crisis facing this country. and i don't really think that this is going to solve it, we talk a lot about supply in this country, about trying to fiddle

planning rules, regulations to try and free up more space to build homes. we're not talking about demand. we built about 170,000 homes last year in england, and wales, we need to build somewhere between 500 and 600,000 homes every year just to keep up with the pressures from migration, which is now the biggest driver of our population. and in social housing, i mean, the brutal reality is a lot of brits are getting pushed out of social housing by people who have arrived in the country more recently, so i'm very cynical about labour's positioning on the housing. i don't feel like we're having a mature debate about it, a grown up debate about it, a grown up debate about it. and i'm worried for british kids and young british families and how they're going to get on the housing ladder if we don't build more homes and get control of the demand pressures that we've got. >> so, this is i was reading this piece and it's interesting because obviously any suggestion that rent is going to go up for anyone in social housing in the private rented sector is going

to be really alarming. we already know that it's incredibly expensive to live in the uk at the minute, in part due to, well, mostly due to the fact that we don't have enough houses in this country. what is interesting about this is one of the reasons that the government is planning to increase rent in line with social rent in line with inflation is in order to generate more revenue for local councils and housing associations, so they can build more of that housing. and so they can put more money back in those councils. and i think really this is another one of this is an example of labour as they said, they were having to make those difficult decisions in order to basically fix the problems that have occurred as a result of 14 years of conservative neglect. they have starved councils, they have starved councils, they have starved housing supply in this country . and now labour is country. and now labour is having to do these things that are really not going to be very popular. they're not going to make people very happy. it's going to be more pain for people. ultimately hopefully will result in more for money councils and more housing. but it's going to be a long, painful

journey. we're going to feel the legacy of the conservatives failures of never ending journey, because, i mean, not to come back to the point that we've just discussed, but if you're still if you're if you're on, if you're running for ever more net migration rates of 500,000 plus, you're never going to fix this problem ever. >> all you're going to be we're going to be here in ten years time looking ten years older, and you're going to be saying, we need to build more homes. and it will just go on and on and on. so what's facing western states is what they call a population trap. and that's what we're in now. so the capacity of the state to provide basic services for people is now being exceeded by the pace of population growth. right. so we're in a trap. we're in a never ending. it's like a hamster wheel. we build more homes. we have more people. we build more homes. we have more people. those people get older. we need more hospital beds. we need more social support. we need more social support. we need more social support. we need more nhs. we need more people and round and round it goes because nobody is actually making the really brave decision. to go back to your point about labour, which is we need to fundamentally get off this hamster wheel. need to fundamentally get off this hamster wheel . we need to this hamster wheel. we need to

change the settlement. >> do we? i'll let zoe respond to that after

break. hello there. i'm michelle dewberry with you till 7:00. look at the time. absolutely flies . mike goodwin and zoe flies. mike goodwin and zoe grunewald remain alongside me. we were just talking about so—called population traps when it comes to things like social housing. zoe your chance to respond. >> yes. so, i mean, i think it's very easy to just blame migration for all the problems in this country. but the reality is that the government have completely failed to build enough houses , right to buy enough houses, right to buy meant we completely depleted our social housing stock. we never were able to rebuild on that . were able to rebuild on that. 90% of lead tenants in social housing in the uk are uk born. it's not the case that people are coming and just taking all the social housing. it's just it's simply not true. in fairness, in fairness, i didn't quite say that. no, but you are .

quite say that. no, but you are. you are saying that it's immigration is to blame for the i'm saying i'm saying you can have available and affordable housing or you can have mass immigration. >> you can't have both. >> you can't have both. >> well, i would argue i mean, we can go back to our original argument, which is that this country does fundamentally need migration. we have an ageing population, we have a declining birth rate. we have vacancies in our health and social care sector. we have vacancies in our hospitality sector. we need people to come here and to and to help contribute to the economy. we also need to house them and at present we don't have enough housing. >> we could also make different choices. i mean, we don't have to be running net migration at 700,000 a year. we don't have to be losing control of our borders. we don't have to be ignonng borders. we don't have to be ignoring issues like family policy or encouraging people to have more children or building. >> as i said before, it's totally reasonable to have conversations about what migration policy that works for the country should look like. so, for example, but to act as if all these problems would be solved if we just lowered migration? >> i don't think anybody i don't think anybody is saying that. what i'm saying is with this debate over housing, we talk a lot about planning. we talk a

lot about planning. we talk a lot about planning. we talk a lot about regulation. we talk a lot about regulation. we talk a lot about regulation. we talk a lot about which are social issues. absolutely. we need to build more homes, don't have an issue with that. but if you're building more homes and you're not dealing with the underlying demand, you're just going to have to keep on building more and more homes. most likely on the greenbelt, most likely in lots of areas that basically, you know, define who we are that people like. so until somebody can get real with the british people about the demand side of this problem, which is we've got 6.5 million people coming into this country in the next ten years. that's the government's own forecast, 6.5 million people coming in. that is basically 70% of london. okay. so where are those people going to go? because at the moment we are still playing catch up for the demand of the last ten years. so can someone in government come out and say, here's our plan for the 6.5 million who are coming in between now and 2036. this is where they're going to go, because i don't think allowing people to build loft extensions or building on brownfield sites or building on brownfield sites or whatever is going to come close to dealing with that issue. >> you say as well that we, you know, yes, we can talk about immigration and all we ever do

is talk about immigration. but i would say that actually it's becoming increasingly difficult to raise your concerns about the absolute lack of control about immigration. i remember very recently protests outside what people thought they were wrong, but what people thought was the actual working office of reform uk. you had 4 million people that finally had a party that they felt would perhaps, you know, follow through on promises to control immigration. what happens? you have a protest practically outside their door. wrong door. but you get the point. saying that the people, the party, essentially the people that vote for them are some kind of fascist neo—nazis. so i would argue that you can't have sensible, controlled immigration conversations anymore without being branded far right , anymore without being branded far right, racist, and god only knows what else. but don't doesn't the labour the labour government wants to bring legal immigration down? >> they've said that they don't have a number. they don't have a figure. >> but every government's always said that and they don't do it.

>> well, okay. i mean, but when you say this is the point, when you say this is the point, when you say this is the point, when you say every government, i mean the conservatives absolutely presided over far higher levels of immigration than we'd seen before, in part because there were massive vacancies in our health and social care sector and because they wanted as as you know, matt pointed out, there was a need for it in the labour market. now we have a government who is putting forward how they want to get a grip on the on the immigration issue. they are talking to. i think it's the migration observatory about the kind of number they might come up with. i don't think they put a number on it yet, but i just don't think it's i don't think it's right to say we're not talking about immigration. >> well, we'll talk about it, but will anyone listen? and can we still talk about it without getting branded? you'll have strong opinions on that. matt. you're not messing around. you should apply for a job in this new border control unit. you say if you want to clamp down on illegal migration, tell yvette cooper to get herself into barbershops, nail salons , vape barbershops, nail salons, vape shops, phone repair shops is giving me a good list. there you

go. you can pass that on to your yvette cooper for free, look, zoe, thank you very much for your contribution. matt goodwin. thank you for yours as well, and also you guys at home, i very much appreciate you spending your hour with me. do not go anywhere because at 7:00, you've got gbn tonight. but that's all from me. and i'll see you tomorrow night . tomorrow night. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news . news. >> hi there, time for the latest forecast from the met office for gb news. an unsettled 36 to 48 hour period to come for many parts of the uk. a series of low pressure systems queuing up to arrive from the atlantic, one heading towards iceland , another heading towards iceland, another one containing the remnants of ex—hurricane ernesto. that means, although it's a fairly typical area of low pressure that we see in the north atlantic at this time of year, it does contain air of tropical origins and a lot of moisture .

origins and a lot of moisture. all that moisture will be dumped over western scotland , northwest over western scotland, northwest england, parts of wales and northern ireland overnight and the winds will pick up as well, with gales 50 to 60 mile per houn with gales 50 to 60 mile per hour. wind gusts around the irish sea coast first thing thursday, as well as the hills of north wales, northern england and southern scotland could cause some transport disruption dunng cause some transport disruption during the thursday morning period. drier towards the southeast a lot of cloud around and a breezy start to the day, but the wet weather pushing into south—west england, wales and northwest scotland and having dumped 100 to 150mm of rain over the hills of western scotland, there's the risk of disruption dunng there's the risk of disruption during thursday morning, even as that clears away the risk of localised flooding . now brighter localised flooding. now brighter skies do return to scotland and northern ireland, although with a scattering of showers moving in from the west, whilst the frontal system pushes south eastwards as a weakening feature. no more than a few dnbs feature. no more than a few dribs and drabs of rain. by the time it gets to south—east of england on thursday afternoon .

england on thursday afternoon. otherwise sunshine late on across wales, the midlands and northern england . but the same northern england. but the same can't be said for friday. a very unsettled start to the day. wet and windy once again as another low moves across the uk. it does pull through quickly and brighter skies once again into the afternoon, but with further showers coming into the north—west. and that sets the scene for the bank holiday weekend. now for england, wales and northern ireland, it is a bank holiday and we can expect a mix of sunny spells and showers. >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers sponsors of up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb

>> good evening, i'm christopher hope and this is gbn tonight. now home secretary yvette cooper has claimed she will lock up and deport more migrants. labour

planned to deport a record number of migrants and create extra spaces in immigration removal centres , which it once removal centres, which it once dubbed as immoral. but will this be enough to stop the boats? and were they right to act the tory government's rwanda plan . in government's rwanda plan. in last night's show, we revealed how ministers plan to release 2000 criminals, including those convicted on violent crimes like manslaughter, before they've even served half of their term in prison early next month. well, tonight i'll be speaking to a mother who was contacted by the ministry of justice, and we've got the letter to tell her that her son's killer will walk free in a matter of weeks . plus, free in a matter of weeks. plus, the mass murdering nurse lucy letby could be innocent. according to former culture secretary nadine dorries . i'll secretary nadine dorries. i'll be speaking to her shortly .

be speaking to her shortly. about all of that to