complex simple question with a complex answer. do get in touch with your thoughts on tonight's topics by visiting gbnews.com forward slash yoursay. but first, here's the news with cameron walker . cameron walker. >> and chris thank you. it's 7:01 i'm cameron walker here in the newsroom. the bodies of british tech entrepreneur mike lynch and his daughter hannah have been found in the yacht, which sank off sicily. according to the daily telegraph. but no formal identification has taken place yet, for bodies therefore have been recovered from the wreck of the superyacht this afternoon, which sank on monday. this takes the death toll so far to five. two people are still missing . police have named a man missing. police have named a man killed in his own home by his pet xl bully dog. the victim was david daintree, who was 53 years old. specially trained officers are supporting his family. emergency services were called

last night to a house at ashley court in accrington in lancashire, after reports of a dog attacking somebody inside. the xl bully dog was shot dead by police, who claimed the dog still posed a significant risk to others. an investigation is ongoing . police have launched ongoing. police have launched a murder investigation after a delivery driver was involved in a collision during an attempted theft of his van. west yorkshire police said officers were called last night following reports of a man found seriously injured in wortley in leeds. officers found the victim unconscious, with members of the public trying to help him. he was given emergency treatment by ambulance staff but was pronounced dead at the scene . was pronounced dead at the scene. four people who died in a house fire in bradford, including three children, have been named by west yorkshire police as 29 year old briony gawith and destiny, who was nine years old. oscar, who was five, and aubrey burtle, who was just 22 months. a murder investigation has been launched after the incident, which happened in the early hours of this morning on

westbury road. a 39 year old man was arrested at the scene on suspicion of murder and taken to hospital with critical injuries. superintendent lucy leadbeater believes the fire was started on purpose, whilst enquiries are at their early stages, we believe that the fire was started deliberately and this incident was domestic related. >> i would appeal to anyone who was in the westbury road area at the time of the incident , who the time of the incident, who has cctv or doorbell footage to come forward , and the home come forward, and the home office has outlined plans to tackle illegal immigration, including deploying 100 new intelligence officers to target people smuggling gangs. >> the home office. the home secretary has also outlined plans for the next six months to achieve the highest rate of removals. of those who do not have the right to be in the uk, including failed asylum seekers. the government says it will also reopen immigration removal centres in hampshire and oxfordshire, adding 290 beds. but the conservatives has said

labour were not serious about tackling the people smugglers or stopping the boats . well, those stopping the boats. well, those are the latest gb news headlines for now i'm cameron walker. now it's back to chris for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code or go to gb news. >> com forward slash alerts . >> com forward slash alerts. >> com forward slash alerts. >> welcome back to gb news tonight with me christopher hope. now the home secretary, yvette cooper, has claimed she will detain more illegal migrants and carry out a record number of deportations. labour is pressing ahead with the previous tory government's plan to reopen two immigration centres in a bid to achieve what it hopes will be the highest rate of removals since 2018, when theresa may was the prime minister nearly 300 places will be created by reopening these

two centres in oxfordshire and hampshire. they have previously been closed by the last tory government after people had tried to physically harm themselves. but reopening these centres is not what the prime minister, sir keir starmer, said when he was in opposition. then he pledged to defend migrants rights and to instead call for the closures of detention centres. well, an ipsos mori poll from last friday showed that immigration is now the top issue for voters. but previous statistics show that 95% of people in detention centres were ultimately released. is labour doing its job to tackle immigrant migration at its root cause? and as it wants to do, smash the gangs. joining me now is kay marsh, a migrant support coordinator based in dover. kay, thank you for joining coordinator based in dover. kay, thank you forjoining us coordinator based in dover. kay, thank you for joining us tonight on gb tonight. is this the right answer reopening these two centres? >> absolutely not. especially not at the moment, so, you know , not at the moment, so, you know, we have an issue with detention

centres in the uk. i think it was july this year. the, the prison inspectorate found that harmondsworth has the worst conditions they've ever seen. you know, we need to look at that first. we need to fix the problems that are already there with the detention system before we even think about opening new ones. >> it's part of the problem ditching the rwanda plan. was that ever going to work in your view? >> absolutely not. i think that's the one thing that we can all agree. labour did that was really good so far, ditching the rwanda plan. it was expensive. it was never going to work. you know, it was built on lies. and, you know, people just thought it was this, this sort of fix everything and it certainly wasn't. so that's that's a good thing at least. >> but in that case, what will work? i mean, do you think that you can have better coordination with enforcement bodies on the continent? is that going to work or will it be 100 more? staff recruited today with the national crime agency? is that going to work? >> well, the issue with removals has always been that there wasn't adequate return

agreements in place. so, you know, with third countries and home countries and the return agreements just weren't there. and you can't return somebody if the country you're returning them to doesn't agree to that, and of course, we can't send back people back to an active war zone. so there's a lot of people that will never be sent back to anywhere, and even even if this all came together and we, you know, the removals came up to this sort of level. excuse me. promised by yvette cooper. it's a sticking plaster, isn't it? unless we actually fix the issue of the small boats. it's just going to keep happening, you know? so at the moment, we have a lot of failed asylum seekers and people who you know, go through the asylum system and don't get a positive outcome. and that is because at the moment we don't have adequate , moment we don't have adequate, safe and legal routes into the country. so we've got legitimate people and say people that don't have a legitimate claim to asylum or come in here on boats, and then we have to work out at this end who should and who shouldn't stay. if we had a mechanism where people could

start their asylum claim before needing to come to britain, before needing to be on british soil, we could start that process a lot. earlier and we could weed out a lot of people a lot earlier in the process. >> is that even realistic? before they make that dangerous crossing and pay a couple of thousand pounds to a people trafficking gang to start processing them in northern france? is that even a realistic opportunity thing ? because they opportunity thing? because they do throw away their their id on the way here? many don't they? >> i think again, we have to realise that some of these sort of like inflammatory statements aren't necessarily as true as they're made out to be in the media. so the majority of people, everyone who has a legitimate claim to asylum would, i'm sure, jump at the chance not to have to get into a small boat, not to have to take that risk and spend that money. you know, a processing centre in northern france is an option. you know, if we can do it in rwanda, we can certainly do it in northern france. why aren't we doing that, online portals start your asylum claim. online humanitarian visa scheme like we saw in ukraine. you know, that was very successful, very

quickly. >> so. so if you established a processing centre in near dover , processing centre in near dover, and then those who are allowed to come here were brought across normally in a legal way that might stop the illegal crossings. >> i think it would certainly kerb illegal crossings and we would have a much better view of who was legitimate and who may not be, because, you know , if not be, because, you know, if you've got a legitimate claim, you're not going to get in a small boat, you're going to take the safe and legal route where you get brought here nicely on a boat. you know, so anybody caught getting into a small boat would then be heavily questioned. you know, why are you not taking the safe and legal route? i think it would be a lot easier to manage asylum in this country. >> well, kay marsh, an immigrant migration, forgive me. support coordinator in dover, thanks for joining us tonight on cbn tonight with me in the in the studio here is kwasi kwarteng the former tory chancellor. and lloyd russell—moyle a former labour mp. lloyd is kmart right there. she's saying there that an easier way might be sort of

processing individuals in france and then bring them over legally. and that may stop the illegal arrivals. >> she's broadly right. i mean , >> she's broadly right. i mean, let's remember that arrivals are from irregular means are actually down from what they were 15 years ago. it's just 15 years ago. people came in the back of trucks, and now a smaller number is coming over on the boats . so because they dealt the boats. so because they dealt with the eurotunnel. yes. it's actually a reducing problem. but the problem has been that it's then also more dangerous. and so we do need to tackle it . and we do need to tackle it. and personally i think the idea of a french processing centre where you can be carrot and stick about this and you can say, okay, we've seen that you're arriving on a dinghy, we're going to pick you up, make sure you're safe, and we're going to take you straight to our processing centre, which happens to be in northern france . and to be in northern france. and we'll send you straight back there. we'll process you there, and then we will see where you can go. now of course, there is a problem, which is numbers isn't it. let's get to the nub

of it. it's always numbers. immigration. you do an online. if you do an online application system, you could have half the world applying. and i think that what we need to do is be realistic. we need to say that there is a certain number that we need for real humanitarian issues, you know, kind of special programs. and we need to be more generous on those special programs . the syrian special programs. the syrian schemes shut the afghan scheme shut. on the other side, i think that it would be totally reasonable to say this is the number 50,000. whatever the number 50,000. whatever the number is, 10,002. i mean, whatever the number politicians want to say each year, this is the number beyond the special schemes that we're willing to take. and once that is up, then i'm afraid it's up. and maybe you divvy it out monthly. so you and that's how we used to do visas in this country. >> kwasi kwarteng isn't what lloyd's saying. what david cameron tried to do for no syrian camps years ago. yeah. he did. >> and the issue was that since 2018, it got out of hand. and lloyd's quite right. i think the absolute numbers are lower than

they were 15 years ago. but optically seeing people on dinghies being trafficked in dangerous conditions and then arriving in britain without any id is unacceptable. and people say that, look, the gangs, the traffickers are benefiting. and that's why the rwanda scheme, which i supported, was a very clear deterrent for people not to come to this country. but of course we couldn't. >> and deliberately it was working if it was beginning to working if it was beginning to work slightly around the age of thought, it might be working. >> but the issue that, and i think this was a fundamental issue with the conservative party, was that if we weren't willing to leave the echr put that on the table, it was obvious that the scheme at some point would fall down because they would simply appeal to the individual claims. and, and the echr would have just waved them through. so that was the weakness. >> is kwasi right? weakness. >> is kwasi right ? lloyd >> is kwasi right? lloyd russell—moyle the mistake was not even to try and make rwanda work because, according to the tory government, as we know dunng tory government, as we know during the campaign , it was during the campaign, it was about the flights about to take

off. why not let some flights take off proving to be a failure? if it's a failure and then move on? >> well, the problem with the rwanda scheme is it wasn't actually a scheme on how to become a refugee in the uk. it was a scheme where we bundled people off to rwanda. and if you're if you were, then processed, you stayed in rwanda, you couldn't come back. yeah. and it was also a scheme that the most vulnerable refugees from rwanda that might have got to rwanda via neighbouring countries . so the flights were countries. so the flights were then repatriated back to britain. so we had to have the cost of all these very vulnerable refugees that rwanda would send to us in a, in a, in a for tat kind of arrangement. it was it was bonkers. i think that there is some discussion to be had about numbers. and there is some discussion about offshore processing, but it needs to be done in a humane way, and it needs to be done in a way that when you pick people up, rather than it being indefinite, you know, the time limit. and i think that that was the key. on keir starmers pledge. what he said is we would get rid of indefinite detention. and the problem with those words is that you have people put

there for years and years. you don't know how long they'll be there, and then they cause real problems and we need to speed up the processing. fair but firm. fair but fast. >> the issue that i think that they're missing in this government is the fact that and lord probably won't agree with me, but the system was being abused. i mean, not all the people i think are a large number of the people who were coming on the boats weren't legitimate asylum seekers , and legitimate asylum seekers, and that was the majority were granted asylum. >> so you could say that the system was incorrectly identifying them. but when they were identified , the majority were identified, the majority were identified, the majority were asylum seekers. >> but there has to be an element of deterrent in this system. and the rwanda was a deterrent. it clearly was that. and people were actually going to ireland. there were reports of people going to ireland because they they feared the being deported and also in northern france were not coming across because of this. >> exactly. >> exactly. >> and it was and it was effective in that, in that regard. >> lord, do you worry about the slowness in establishing this border command, this idea of this new idea, this enforcement boss, we haven't yet found that six weeks, seven weeks into a

labour government, no one appointed yet. >> well, six weeks is a very short time. well, including including over the summer. so i would expect 5000 across since. >> since the election. yes yes. >> since the election. yes yes. >> look, we are not going to turn the tap off tomorrow. but what i expect is by christmas , what i expect is by christmas, by the new year, that we to start to see real, real progress on this. and if there isn't, then i think the public will be rightly saying, look, we've given you six months. what have you been doing? okay we're going to break now. >> kwasi kwarteng. and thank you , >> kwasi kwarteng. and thank you, lloyd russell—moyle as well. great to have you both here on the panel. coming up next, a former tory cabinet minister has called for the mass murderer lucy letby case to be reviewed. we have the former culture secretary, nadine dorries, on next to explain why

welcome back to gbn tonight with me , christopher hope. and i

me, christopher hope. and i asked you earlier, do you think labour can stop the boats? you've been sending in your views, christopher. that's my name too, says labour. stand no chance of stopping the boats. they're not brave enough to do what it takes. well, what does it take, christopher? sue. sue says labour have no chance of stopping the boats or smashing the gangs. they don't have the courage for what's needed to. many wet run this country. but sue, what's your answer, david? can labour stop the boats? no exclamation mark in capitals. they couldn't even stop a bus. well, we'll wait and see if that works out. keep sending in your views as soon as you can. we'll read out as many as we can on air tonight. read out as many as we can on airtonight. now, a read out as many as we can on air tonight. now, a former cabinet minister has called lucy letby case to be urgently reviewed. nadine dorries, a former culture secretary and an ex—nurse, wants the justice secretary, shabana mahmood, to become involved. she says in the growing concern surrounding letby convictions since letby convictions, many legal, medical and statistical experts have been coming forward to challenge

the evidence used in the case. and last week, the crown prosecution service admitted the evidence used in the first trial was incorrect and dorries has voiced concern over the perilous state of maternity and neonatal care. joining me now is that person, former culture secretary nadine dorries. nadine, welcome to gb news tonight. to great see you again. >> and you too. >> and you too. >> why are you getting involved in this case? >> well, as you said, i'm a former nurse and i was also the minister responsible for maternity and neonatal care for two years. i was the minister who called for the inquiry into east kent hospitals because of the situation at that hospital with the high number of infant and neonatal deaths. i also extended the inquiry into shrewsbury and telford hospitals, which discovered at one point when i left 200 unexplained neonatal deaths. and

so i have first hand experience at how a culture can develop in at how a culture can develop in a hospital and how easily things can go wrong and we know from the countess of chester hospital , the countess of chester hospital, which had launched its own independent inquiry into the high number of deaths before lucy letby was charged that there were some very serious problems on the unit, including outbreaks of infection , outbreaks of infection, including poor culture, bad practices , a shortage of practices, a shortage of consultants, junior doctors , consultants, junior doctors, reluctant, not asking for help with serious cases. so we knew there was a problem on the unit already. and as you said yourself in your introduction, everybody from statisticians to pre—eminent members of the legal profession to doctors to and nurses, those nurses who worked with lucy letby and stood shoulder to shoulder with her, some of those absolutely stunned at the verdict . and of course, at the verdict. and of course, one of the questions that's

raised from this verdict is it was a very complex case with very complex legal and medical information . how much did the information. how much did the jury information. how much did the jury understand what it was? they were being told, and there was evidence submitted , research was evidence submitted, research papers submitted , which the papers submitted, which the doctors who wrote those research papers have since said should never have been used in the way that they were. and so there are huge questions over the trial of lucy letby. and meanwhile, a 34 year old young woman woman has beenin year old young woman woman has been in jail now for a number of years and has been condemned to spend the rest of her life in prison . and therefore, i think prison. and therefore, i think given the number of people who are raising concerns, it is time to review the case. >> have you have you reached out to lucy letby in prison? >> i haven't no, no . >> i haven't no, no. >> and do you i mean, going on what you've described there, your experience of being a care minister and also being an ex—nurse, do you think she might be innocent ? be innocent? >> so that's not my judgement to

make. that's what i would like to see. is lucy letby have a first fair trial. and that is what is in question. if she has a fair trial and with the correct evidence used and robust statistical evidence, all the evidence has been called into question. all has been described as flawed. the only piece of solid. >> not all, not not all, not all sorry elements of the swiping of the into and out of the ward. but not everything has been described like that. >> no, that's not actually the case. the main pieces of evidence on which she worked and which she was convicted are the research paper by doctor lee, who described mottling in the skin as as something which is associated with the babies being injected with there, who has since disputed that the statistical evidence that she was the person present at the time. those babies died, that has been called into question

because of the door swipes. you know, lucy letby worked on a high risk special care baby unit where, sadly, many babies die at the time those babies died on that unit that infant mortality rate rose across the uk. one of those babies weighed only £17. every loss of a baby's life is utterly tragic. but, you know, if somebody is going to be convicted to serve their entire life in prison, then the evidence upon which that conviction is made must be robust and as i said at the beginning, pre—eminent members of the legal profession statisticians, doctors , statisticians, doctors, paediatricians, nurses are all questioning and doubting that that evidence was. >> you mentioned doctor lee's testimony. it wasn't admissible in a court of appeal. and you have got this lucy letby. she did say, i am evil. i did this in notes in 2016. do you? i mean, you're choosing without

relitigating the entire case in five minutes on gb news, you are choosing evidence that suits your case. but other things were the too , case so you have to the too, case so you have to read the rest of that sentence. >> those babies died because i'm not good enough so that that that note that she wrote. and it's interesting the way people select certain words out of those post—it notes . those notes those post—it notes. those notes were written when she was undergoing intensive questioning by the police over a over extended period of time. those notes were written as an example of utter distress. they've been again, there are others who who've looked at these notes, who've looked at these notes, who are far more qualified than me to judge how and what state of mind she was. they were written in and the conclusion has been by others that she wrote those notes were normal notes written for somebody who was under extreme stress. i mean, and just finally, nadine dorries, the of course, the cps has told us they can confirm the

accurate door swipe data was presented at the retrial. >> they've been transparent and clarifying the issue and rectified it for the retrial. and they're confident that they didn't have a meaningful impact on the prosecution, which included many strands of evidence. >> however , there is a question >> however, there is a question about bias and the wrong information being given earlier information being given earlier in the original trial and bias in the original trial and bias in the original trial and bias in the minds of the jury having been originally given the wrong material. >> okay, listen, nadine dorries, to great see you again and having you on again on gb tonight. great. thank you for coming. thank you forjoining coming. thank you for joining us. kwasi kwarteng. hello. what do you think about politicians getting involved in in miscarriages of justice? when you're an mp i'm sure you heard lots of cases. there were i mean, sir david davis, your your your former colleague. that's right. is getting involved. nadine dorries is getting involved now, no longer an mp. >> look, i'm very uneasy about it. i mean, obviously i have a huge respect for nadine. we were friends. we were cabinet colleagues. and she is speaking from a place of expertise. she was a nurse, as she said, and she was also the health

minister, but i think it's a really bad precedent when politicians, mps start getting involved in cases. now, if it was one of my constituents, then yes, i would probably try and make some sort of representation. but if we look at the lucy letby case, there were two trials and she was convicted , i think, on 15 convicted, i think, on 15 counts. and you've got to have some respect or faith in the legal system. and if there was a problem with the trial, you know, she had a chance to go to the court of appeal and they found against her. so unless you're going to try and unpick the entire legal system, i don't think it's appropriate for mps and politicians to say, oh, well, the justice secretary should get involved. i mean, where would that end? yeah. >> lloyd russell—moyle, there's a whole industry of podcasts going over old trials and overturning some convictions in the past. it does work. this doesn't it? but we have a challenged over cases. when you were an mp did you ever get involved? >> oh, well of course you get

people writing to you as an mp saying i've had an awful miscarriage of justice and you're the last person to go to very often you feel for them, you feel very deeply for them, and you support them as much as you can. people from prison, people who are out of prison, people who are out of prison, people who've lost their homes and everything, you know, and very often people who were in abusive relationships as well . abusive relationships as well. and that's often how you get caught up in these things. however, what i would say is that i think that in this country there is an awful lot of miscarriages of justice. i think in all countries there are, because that's the nature of the beast. what we need to do is make sure there is a robust review process, and we know the review process, and we know the review process, and we know the review process hasn't been robust enough. no, we know that the head of the criminal cases review board board has had to go after the after the latest inquiry. and so i wouldn't be surprised that many cases do need to be reviewed. and i think what we should be looking at is processes rather than individual cases. and the other thing that i think we should be cautious of is convicting people on statistics, and it should be on

material evidence. i mean, for example, that's the problem in this case, isn't it? this case. but we've had, for example, the cases of mothers apparently shaking their babies because the statistics said that those babies couldn't have died a natural cot deaths. and in the end it was found not to be the case.i end it was found not to be the case. i think statistics is not a good way to convict. we must have material evidence, and if it means ten people who are guilty walk free because we don't, then put one innocent person away. i think that is a price to pay in a libertarian society. >> well, that's that's an interesting point of view. i mean, i'm not sure i'd want ten criminals who were guilty marauding the streets, but i think in this the choice is ten versus one. >> i mean, i mean, there's a balance and you either go too far and you get too many innocent people, or you go too, and you have and i think, of course, there's that balance. but i do think that we need to urge on the side of guilty people walking free, that innocent people have locked up. >> so that's a theoretical discussion about the lucy letby case itself. i think she had two

trials. yeah. there was a first trial, which and then there was an appeal. and in that process she was found guilty on 15 counts. it wasn't just a negligible thing. now, nadine is a serious politician with serious experience, and she feels that there was a miscarriage of justice. but i think you've got to actually trust the system in this case. i think she was convicted. she was tried. forgive me. and i think that, i think justice was probably served. but if there are outrageous things, if there are outrageous things, if there are things , then. yeah, then are things, then. yeah, then then we have to look into that. >> lloyd russell—moyle i mean, what's your take on this case? lucy letby case? you've read about it in the papers. you're familiar with some of the facts. look i think that kwasi has outlined very well that this has gone to trial . gone to trial. >> this has gone to appeal. i do think there is a case to make sure that the, criminal cases review board is empowered to look at these cases early on to ensure that things are right and what mps should be doing and former mps should be doing is

not employing the secretary of state to get in. that's right, but should be employing the criminal cases review board to look at these cases. the secretary of state, the review board refuses. that's right. then you go to the secretary of state. >> so that was the bit that i was i didn't agree at all with nadine about. i mean, the secretary of state is a political actor with all sorts of impulses, with all sorts of responsibilities, not only to the party, but to the media and all the rest of it. and i think that's probably. >> and if she said anything, it can it can, i think probably the very worst person. and she's a lord chancellor, too, of course. >> yeah. that's right. but i think the political act is the very worst person. >> and let's remember those parents who have lost their children, and this will be retraumatizing all of that over again. so it's not a very edifying process. >> no. and i think they need closure to, of course. lloyd russell—moyle and kwasi kwarteng, thank you for joining me again tonight. now, coming up next, government experts say that the increased spending on the public sector pay has meant that the uk borrowed £3 billion more than expected in july. are we going to pay for this

next. welcome back to gbn tonight with me, christopher hope. now labour's decision to give pay rises to millions of public sector workers looks like it's coming home to roost. the treasury borrowed £3.1 billion in july, according to the office of national statistics, well above the £100 million anticipated by the watchdog, the office for budget responsibility . office for budget responsibility. that led the obr to say the following that the 3 billion difference was driven primarily by higher than forecast consumption spending by government departments, which appears related to strong growth in public sector pay. darren jones, he's number two in the treasury. he said that the borrowing figures underlined the tough decisions that are needed tough decisions that are needed to fix the foundations of our economy. and separately, treasury sources told the guardian to expect tax rises at

the october 30th budget later this year. now, former chancellor kwasi kwarteng is with me. kwasi, are you surprised that spending more on pubuc surprised that spending more on public sector pay might lead to tax rises? >> well, i'm not at all surprised. and actually the july figures i don't think will necessarily capture the latest settlements that this new labour government are talking about then. so i think that there were previous settlements which are now percolating, which by, by our government, which are now percolating through. and i think these new settlements, because some of them were announced even in august. so they can't be reflected in the july numbers. and i think there'll be more of that to come. i think there'll be more higher wage settlements , be more higher wage settlements, which will be paid for by higher taxes. and that's what the treasury are clearly spinning and suggesting that that's what's going to happen. and my question is what taxes are they going to put up? i mean , we know going to put up? i mean, we know about obviously vat on school fees, but that won't that won't

do anything really to fill that hole. >> it might cut spending. two. >> it might cut spending. two. >> don't forget they'll have to do that. well they'll have to do that. but where the tax the taxes fall the tax increases fall i think will be a very big you worked you worked in the treasury for there was you know, exactly what's on the on the top shelf and then dust down ideas and thoughts. >> so what would you go for? >> so what would you go for? >> were you i wouldn't i wouldn't want i mean, i didn't raise taxes, i mean, but if you were faced by this but i think that they're going to i'm just thinking in terms of the treasury mind of where the government might come from. they will probably try and in inverted commas, tax the rich. so i strongly suspect that before the end of the parliament, we'll have some form of mansion tax. that's a wealth tax, a wealth tax. i think we're going to have they're not going to lift the fiscal drag the thresholds, i think they're going to stay fixed. so by the end of the parliament, £50,000 will be a lot less than it is now. but all of those people who in five years time will be earning more than £50,000, will be caught into this fiscal drag, this net where they'll be paying frozen, they'll be paying.

exactly. and that's how the treasury can raise money. >> lloyd russell—moyle, you're probably pretty pleased with this tax soak. the rich, as kwasi kwarteng is saying, is on the way. >> well, i don't want unnecessary taxes and particularly regressive taxes. and that's why we talked about no increase to general vat and particularly regressive tax that reduces consumer spending, not what we need. we talked about making sure that ordinary people will not see an increase in their national insurance or their national insurance or their income tax. again, those things will will harm ordinary people. but there is problems in the system. there's a real problem that people who earn their money via means other than work pay a lower rate of tax . work pay a lower rate of tax. and for ordinary people that is not fair. so there is an element of fairness here which also can raise additional additional amounts of money. well, and particularly when it's on assets. so it's wealth that's caphal assets. so it's wealth that's capital. you know what i mean is fixed assets it's fixed assets property etcetera that can't fly out of the country. so there are

some assets , you know, kind of some assets, you know, kind of liquid assets that could fly out of the country. but fixed assets, you could be quite, you know, more robust on. yeah. >> so that's a classic dividing line between lord's position. charming though he is and mine. i think that, you know, if you're taxing wealth and taxing caphal you're taxing wealth and taxing capital, that capital flees. there's going to be blight in terms of houses. i know the houses can't leave the country, but people can stop buying them. and i think the real danger of the government has, and i'm not going to prophesy that this is going to prophesy that this is going to prophesy that this is going to happen, but the real dangeris going to happen, but the real danger is that wealth creators and people who are investing in the country are essentially frightened off, and you're not going to get growth, you're going to get growth, you're going to get growth, you're going to kill essentially the golden goose. okay. and you won't be able to pay for the pubuc won't be able to pay for the public services that you want that everyone wants to see. >> thank you. government is about choices, lloyd, isn't it? now, this government wants to lift back aid spending to 0.7% of gdp, where it was put by david cameron and george osborne back in the last long term aim, rather than an immediate when affordable, like with the defence spending target. is that a good thing? do you think? i

mean, we're giving china £8 million a year. is that the right way to spend money when we've got pensioners, you may want more money for their their winter fuel allowance. >> we've just had a whole discussion on refugees and in fact, all the spending on refugees is a double spending, if that. even if it's spending here in the uk on them it is classed as aid. and so the vast majority of aid, i think most people would agree, is helping people would agree, is helping people who need it. and it also reduces pressures on britain. it stops people coming here. it builds up other countries economies. it means that we have people to trade to with trade more refined goods, because our economy is not really based on unrefined goods, it's on high end goods. nowadays, you want to get there as soon as you can. yeah, we want to encourage them to develop quicker, but there will always be cases around the edges of the aid budget that you can say, well, there is this 2 or 3 cases here or there which are anomalous and shouldn't be done. that's why we need to china. that's why we have the aid impact commission , who looks aid impact commission, who looks at this from time to time. and

what i would be doing if i was the head of the international aid committee and i sat on it previously, is i would be asking the commission to present a pretty quick report on some of these that have come to light recently, and to work out what their impact is now , if they can their impact is now, if they can demonstrate their impact. and i don't know it, but there is an impact, then it is worth it. but they have to show that robustly. >> so i agree with that. but the debate was always about the level. no one's saying that we shouldn't give any aid or very few people are saying that. but the debate was always about the 0.7 and that to me was too large. if you look at comparable countries, i think the us gives 0.2. the last time i checked the eu was 0.5 and certainly the germans. >> why are we 0.70.5? >> why are we 0.70.5? >> well, because we had an ideological commitment to show that we were leaders. and i remember when we brought in the 0.7, i was in an event in my constituency and an elderly lady said to me, i don't understand this. i read in the paper that we're borrowing billions, but at the same time we're giving billions in foreign aid. and she was exactly right. it's still happening. she was exactly right. >> and it is all about

priorities, isn't it? >> well , should charity priorities, isn't it? >> well, should charity begin at home? charity should be at home. well, not charity. we should have a proper welfare spending system that raises people out into work. but whatever the number is, i think that what did kind of happen, actually, with nought point seven is it became a cap rather than a floor. and what ended up happening is other departments shuffled around trying to work out what they could reclassify as oda. so yes, other countries have much lower amounts, but i think that's because there isn't the incentive to class things that no one else would class as this and the sort of slightly crazy element of it was that the 0.7 happened, regardless of whether the budget was in, in surplus or in deficit. >> so i actually proposed as a backbencher that we should have a system where we could pay a little bit more when we had a surplus, and we should be able to reduce it, make it flexible. exactly. and that's what i think. in no way i think they do that. in no way i think they do that. i mean , they when they're in

i mean, they when they're in surplus, should china get £8 million a year? i mean, and then of course, there's the whole debate about who gets the money. okay. >> well, there are some very poor areas of china and why can't they pay for them? well, and in britain too, and in britain too. and the aid budget also does pay for people who are dissidents, people who might be rebelling, might be pushing against regimes that we don't like. so money going to russia or china is not have to look behind the veil. >> but there were fairly egregious examples. >> kwasi kwarteng lloyd russell—moyle, thank you again for your great chat. and then on to the break. now. thank you. coming up next, i'll be speaking to a mother who has just been told by the government that her son's killer will be freed under labour's prisoner release scheme. don't go

now, ahead of the early release of thousands of prisoners in coming weeks, families of victims are telling gb news about their agony as they receive letters from the

government informing them that offenders are being released early. by early, we mean after serving 40%, not half of their jail term. in november 2022, gordon gault, dionne barrett's 14 year old son, died after being fatally stabbed by a machete. the perpetrators, carlos nato and lawson nato, both 18, were convicted of manslaughter and unlawful wounding. nato was sentenced to two years and eight months in prison, and diane barrett was left in shock when she received a letter dated the 1st of august a letter dated the 1st of august a couple of weeks ago, warning of his early release. joining me now is the mother to gordon gault, dionne barrett . dionne, gault, dionne barrett. dionne, thank you so much for joining gault, dionne barrett. dionne, thank you so much forjoining me on gbn tonight . firstly, if it's on gbn tonight. firstly, if it's not too upsetting to talk about this, how did you feel when you opened that letter ? opened that letter? >> i think i went through every single emotion going emotions. i didn't even have shocked , angry,

didn't even have shocked, angry, just disbelief. really >> we're showing the letter on screen now, dionne, and it's from a victim liaison officer. and they say that that they are blaming issues with the prison population. the lord chancellor, that's shobana mahmood, has announced plans to introduce a change of law to allow some prisoners serving a determinate sentence to sentence to be released on licence early. that means having served 40%, not 50% of their term. so the probation service is saying this is down to labour. the labour government making a choice here. do you understand why they're making this choice ? this choice? >> it's just not really. it's absolutely crazy. they've got spaces for writers. not that i agree with the writers, but they've got places for them . why they've got places for them. why haven't they got places for someone convicted of manslaughter of a 14 year old

child? not only was the sentence shocking, like stabbing two separate people within minutes of each other , then the term of each other, then the term that the term was two years, eight months, and we've seen people jailed for longer than that in the recent troubles after the southport violence, do you think you've had justice for your son? no justice whatsoever. none whatsoever . it's crazy . none whatsoever. it's crazy. >> it's hard to understand. i mean , all, all sensing reasons mean, all, all sensing reasons are different, but it's hard to understand that the short sentence that was received in this case, and then to have it cut down even further , will you cut down even further, will you be writing to anybody or are you talking to your local mp or writing to the justice secretary ? writing to the justice secretary? >> contact local mps. who wrote letters not only of our members of the public have brought letters. no reply . i can't get letters. no reply. i can't get in touch with anybody . i'm

in touch with anybody. i'm getting no answers whatsoever. and then i'm being told he was meant to be. getting back. sent back to his country on release. now i'm getting told that it's very unlikely , but nobody's very unlikely, but nobody's answering us any questions. nobody's giving us any answers. >> and i don't think you'll be told where he's going when he's released , but he'll be on released, but he'll be on licence. he'll be monitored by the by the prison service until february or the probation service until february. but you you don't know where he's going when he's released. that's part of the worry. is it ? of the worry. is it? >> yeah. of course, because his family only live five minutes away from me. is he going to come back to newcastle ? are we come back to newcastle? are we going to cross each other in the street? and do i think he's going to do it again? yes i do,

he's showed no remorse whatsoever after he, after he's killed gordon, he's then, threatened to petrol bomb my house to rape gordon's 13 year old girlfriend. and he's allowed to come back on the streets. he's a danger to the public. >> he's a foreign national prisoner who's from belgium. do you want the government to send him back to belgium? >> of course . he was meant to be >> of course. he was meant to be getting deported on release. now i'm getting told that it's very unlikely you had a phone call from the probation service before the letter was written. >> yeah . what did he say to >> yeah. what did he say to them? when they tell this to you?i them? when they tell this to you? i can't imagine it. >> first, i was shocked. i actually had to put the phone down and ring them back. once i got my mind together and i said, well, will you be getting deported on release like the judge ordered ? and she says it's judge ordered? and she says it's very unlikely he will be getting

deported . deported. >> and what do you blame the labour government? do you understand there's an issue? i mean, there's no reason why you should, but there's an issue with not enough prison space. if it's going back many years now with the tory government , what with the tory government, what is so upsetting is impacts on your on you and your situation. >> of course , like i haven't got >> of course, like i haven't got my child, my 14 year old child now and we're going to suffer for the rest of our lives and now, afterjust a for the rest of our lives and now, after just a few months, somebody convicted of manslaughter is allowed to walk the streets. it's crazy . the streets. it's crazy. >> well, john barrett, i do hope you do hear back from the government and mps as you raise your case with them. but thank your case with them. but thank you for joining for us difficult conversation tonight on gb news night. thank you. thank you. i should say a ministry of justice spokesman told us tonight the government has to take action to ensure that we have enough prison places. so police can continue to take dangerous

criminals off the streets and keep the public safe. all offenders released on licence are subject to strict conditions and we do not hesitate to recall them to custody if they break them to custody if they break the rules . them to custody if they break the rules. right. coming up next, state of the nation all the way from apparently sunny somerset. up next is jacob. jake. you're there. you're there in your drawing room. or was that your library? what's on your program tonight ? your program tonight? >> i am, yes. what's on the program tonight ? we're going to program tonight? we're going to be talking first of all about mike lynch and the sad reports that seem to be coming to us and the battle he had with the american justice system and with the unfair extradition treaty that we've got that makes it easy for americans to extradite britons . but when it's an britons. but when it's an american spy, they hold to on her like glue. so that's one of the things we're talking about. and then another thing we're going to discuss is the extraordinary briefing against sue gray. we're going to try to get to the bottom of this

because bile is spewing against out of downing street, against the prime minister's chief of staff, jacob. >> that sounds great. up next, the state of the nation with jacob rees—mogg. but first, though the weather with aidan mcgivern . mcgivern. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news >> hi there, time for the latest forecast from the met office for gb news. an unsettled 36 to 48 hour period to come for many parts of the uk, a series of low pressure systems queuing up to arrive from the atlantic, one heading towards iceland, another one containing the remnants of ex—hurricane ernesto. that means, although it's a fairly typical area of low pressure that we see in the north atlantic at this time of year, it does contain air of tropical origins and a lot of moisture. all that moisture will be dumped over western scotland and northwest england, parts of

wales and northern ireland overnight, and the winds will pick up as well, with gales 50 to 60 mile per hour wind gusts around the irish sea coast first thing thursday, as well as the hills of north wales northern england and southern scotland could cause some transport disruption during the thursday morning period. drier towards the southeast a lot of cloud around and a breezy start to the day, but the wet weather pushing into south—west england, wales and northwest scotland and having dumped 100 to 150mm of rain over the hills of western scotland, there's the risk of disruption during thursday morning, even as that clears away the risk of localised flooding. now brighter skies do return to scotland to northern ireland, although with a scattering of showers moving in from the west, whilst the frontal system pushes south eastwards as a weakening feature, no more than a few dnbs feature, no more than a few dribs and drabs of rain by the time it gets to the south—east of england on thursday afternoon. otherwise sunshine late on across wales, the midlands and northern england.

but the same can't be said for friday. a very unsettled start to the day. wet and windy once again as another low moves across the uk . it does pull across the uk. it does pull through quickly and brighter skies once again into the afternoon, but with further showers coming into the north—west and that sets the scene for the bank holiday weekend. now for england, wales and northern ireland. it is a bank holiday and we can expect a mix of sunny spells and showers, a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> hello. good evening, it's me , >> hello. good evening, it's me, jacob rees—mogg, live from god's own county of somerset on state of the nation. tonight reports suggest mike lynch and his daughter have died in a tragic incident in a sunken yacht off the coast of sicily. in his

honounl the coast of sicily. in his honour, i will be paying tribute to mr lynch, whom i met in relation to his unjust treatment and extradition to the united states. sir david davis will join me in a moment. meanwhile, amidst the growing number of briefings being made to the press against the prime minister's chief of staff, sue gray, tonight, i for will the first time ever, try to defend the queen of the blob, and then the queen of the blob, and then the autocue got stuck. but can you guess how hard earned money is being spent on foreign aid? find out in a moment. as a new report shows, we've embraced the inversion of robin hood taking from taxpayers , poor taxpayers, from taxpayers, poor taxpayers, and giving to rich foreigners. plus, should the possibility of president harris fill us with a comforting optimism, or will she simply follow in the footsteps of her disappointing predecessors ? that's all coming predecessors? that's all coming up in a moment, as you would expect, but please send in the mail mmogs, which i'm always delighted to receive. but state of the nation starts now.

holding the state of the nation flabellum for this evening is the historian and broadcaster tessa dunlop. as ever, let me know your views mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now wsfime mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's time for the news bulletin with cameron walker . with cameron walker. >> jacob. thank you. good evening. it is 8:01. i'm karen walker here in the newsroom tonight. in some breaking news, it's been confirmed that five bodies have been found inside the wreck of the luxury yacht that sank in a storm off the coast of sicily. the bodies of british tech entrepreneur mike lynch and his daughter, hannah are thought to be among them. but formal identification has not taken place yet. sicily's civil protection agency has said tonight that four bodies were

recovered from the superyacht this