gb news. >> good evening. the prime minister today gives a tough speech on law and order. but does the law apply equally to absolutely everyone .7 he also absolutely everyone? he also talks about economics and the office of budget responsibility, telling us to prepare for pain in the budget. and as mark zuckerberg admits that he basically did what he was told by the biden administration dunng by the biden administration during lockdown and accepts they did not give due prominence to the hunter biden laptop. this all happens at the same time as pavel durov, who runs telegram, is arrested by french authorities. how much should we

worry about the future of free speech? all of that and much more coming up after the news with tatiana sanchez . with tatiana sanchez. >> nigel, thank you very much and good evening. the top stories. the prime minister has warned the october budget will be painful, but he says the country will have to accept short term pain for long term good during his speech in downing street. this morning, sir keir starmer warned things will get worse before they get better. and he said next week's return to parliament will not be business as usual. he also addressed the recent riots, saying they showed the cracks in our society after 14 years of populism and failure. the prime minister also reiterated economic growth is the government's top priority. >> i promised that we would get a grip on the problems that we face and that we would be judged by our actions, not by our words, i said before the

election and i say it again really clearly today, growth. and frankly , by that i do mean and frankly, by that i do mean wealth creation is the number one priority of this labour government . government. >> in other news, the ministry of justice has confirmed that only 100 spaces are left in male prisons in england and wales. it comes as the number of people sent to prison has reached record levels. in july, the government set out legislation to reduce the amount of time inmates must spend in jail before they're automatically released from 50% of their sentence to 40% in a bid to manage overcrowding, a ministry of justice spokesperson has said. the new government inherited a justice system in crisis and has been forced into taking difficult but necessary action to ensure we can keep locking up dangerous criminals and protect the public. a man has been charged with murder after officers stopped him at notting hill carnival.

detectives had issued an appeal to locate kamaal williams, who was wanted in connection with the fatal stabbing of a 53 year old man. he'll appear in court tomorrow and that's as three men have been arrested over the stabbing of a 32 year old mother at notting hill carnival, which left her in a critical condition. the woman was attending the family day on sunday with her young child when she was attacked. the metropolitan police says it appears she became caught up in the middle of an altercation between two groups of men, but it's unclear if they were known to her. in total, 349 arrests were made over the carnival weekend for a range of offences including violence, sexual assaults and 60 attacks on police officers and mark zuckerberg has admitted facebook and instagram were wrong to censor posts about covid during the pandemic. and he was wrong to bow to pressure, he says in a letter to a us committee investigating online content moderation, mr zuckerberg said senior white house officials repeatedly pressured the company

after joe biden was inaugurated in 2021. he said that facebook made some choices that it would not have made today , and those not have made today, and those are the latest gb news headlines. for now, i'm tatiana sanchez. now it's back to farage for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code , or go to gbnews.com the qr code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . forward slash alerts. >> good evening. things can only get worse. yes, that was keir starmer's speech today. gosh, we're a long way away, aren't we? from the heady optimism of the early days of the blair government. now it's fair to say, of course, we're living under different circumstances, but it was a pretty grim speech. let's begin with law and order and his analysis of what led to

the riots . the riots. >> but these riots didn't happen in a vacuum. they exposed the state of our country , revealed state of our country, revealed a deeply unhealthy society. the cracks in our foundations laid bare, weakened by a decade of division and decline, infected by a spiral of populism which fed off cycles of failure of the last government every time they faced a difficult problem, they failed to be honest. they offered the snake oil of populism. >> i've never heard more nonsense in the whole of my life. the last conservative government was the least populist government i think i've ever seen in the whole of my life. but he's perfectly clear that the reason for the riots is your fault. it's all your fault. it is society's fault. nothing to do with government policy. what so ever. but moving on. this is the man who is going to be tough on crime. let's hear

him. >> now they're learning that crime has consequences that i won't tolerate. a breakdown in law and order under any circumstances . circumstances. >> really? is that right? is that why >> really? is that right? is that why 147,000 >> really? is that right? is that why 147,000 people in the last year have been given community resolutions, which means nothing will appear on their police records? that includes offences such as minor sex crimes , violence and sex crimes, violence and possession of weapons such as knives. oh, and by the way, if you want to go shoplifting, that's absolutely fine . unless that's absolutely fine. unless you nick 200 quids worth, we won't even bother to have a look. and whilst he's getting tough on violent disorder on our streets. well, prime minister, what about the 61 police officers that were assaulted over the weekend at the notting hill carnival? that's nothing to say of many of the other things that went wrong during that so—called festival. and i just

wonder, i want you to answer this question for me. is this two tier policing from two tier care? email me farage gbnews.com. i'm joined in the studio by sir john gbnews.com. i'm joined in the studio by sirjohn redwood. tonight i'm joined also by lloyd russell—moyle. they'll be with me right throughout the show, but i'm going to begin with former scotland yard detective mike neville. mike, notting hill is every single year. it's contentious, but there were more stabbings this year than last yean stabbings this year than last year, more arrests this year than last year, more assaults on police officers this year than last year, more sexual offences committed this year than last yeah committed this year than last year. it's barely been in the news yet it's the ultimate two tier policing. >> and i said that in the press this weekend. what you have all the time, if you look at notting hill, when i, when i was serving, when officers i know are still serving, they'll see people openly smoking drugs. they'll see people abusing the police, blowing smoke in their face, twerking with female officers to the point of sexual assault. and it's accepted to

get arrested at notting hill. take some effort. so when they say there's been 330 arrests, that they took a real effort to do that because if you applied the same standards to football fans who are walking to the ground, if they started twerking with female officers, openly smoking drugs and abusing officers, they would be swiftly arrested. and what we see here is that people committing very violent crimes and near murder, we've got here night stabbings. how many of those people will be in court within 24 hours? having some kind of show trial that we saw on, on the news here, we had a woman sentenced to 15 months for putting a stupid and vile facebook post up about burning down a mosque she nearly had. she had no ability to burn down the mosque and no intention. she just put this stupid, vile post up. i mean, it's still not a good thing to do. it's a wicked and evil thing to do. but she is the sort of person who should have some community resolution. she should perhaps meet with the

local imam, discuss what she's done, realise that he's not a bad chap. >> why is this happening? >> why is this happening? >> because the left don't like prison unless they don't like the people they're putting in there. so everybody's a victim according to the left. apart from, say, the white working class who you could stereotype as right wing thugs. >> why, if you're and you're being very clear that you believe there is a two tier policing, every senior police officer at the moment in this country will disagree with you. what is at the root of the problem? >> the root of the problem. when i started the met half the senior officers were ex—military guys like myself, and there was a balance between them and the academics . the nearly every academics. the nearly every senior police officer now is a clone. they're from a university background. they believe in their left liberal values. most of them think that stop and search is racist. they're not really interested in crime. their focus is producing a police force , which is diverse police force, which is diverse and whatever else. and i've always said this. no one has ever said to me, i didn't like the sex or colour of the officer who came to help me. what they say is, i've got a terrible

service. my burglary wasn't investigated. the person who assaulted my wife wasn't arrested. no one cares about this wokeist apart from this clique, which is in charge of this country. the average person, gay or straight , black person, gay or straight, black or white, just wants good service from the police and everywhere else. but they're not getting it because there's an obsession with these things. with wokery . with wokery. >> mike. stick with me, lloyd . >> mike. stick with me, lloyd. it did seem very odd that the prime minister i'm going to crack down. and actually we want the prime minister to crack down on violence on our streets. we genuinely do. whoever commits it, but to not even mention notting hill, it's a bit of an omission, isn't it? >> well , i omission, isn't it? >> well, i think that it's totally wrong to put notting hill and riots in the same breath, do you? it's totally wrong because it shows a real lack of understanding of the law, i'm afraid. on mike and your part. yet riots, no matter who they were. when i was in bradford and we had race riots in tottenham when we had the

2011 riots, they were and always have been seen as one of the worst offences that you can do against the state, worse than murder to some extent, in terms of proportionality of the crime, because not murder or an individual offence is me offending someone else . rioting offending someone else. rioting is the whole of society ignoring or in that in that moment ignonng or in that in that moment ignoring and destroying the rule of law and the rule of how society operates. and so society itself always has punished those people very harshly. 61 those, those, those 61 police officers got huge sentences that were totally disproportionate. the same in manchester. you remember those those people in the 11 riots where people were being locked up for months for taking an ice cream? it has always been the case. and that's not two tier policing. that's a societal pact that we've made that says rioters always get it more . now, rioters always get it more. now, i do think there is a problem with 61. >> if 61 police officers, if 61 police officers are assaulted, that's not very far away from

being a riot. well, this is the first time on this. >> this is the first year that we have the assault on police officers as a specific crime. so it is recorded now differently. and so we have to check to see whether is there always a problem at this place at notting hill and other, other large events and we know other large events and we know other large events also cause disobedience and they need to be stamped down. but what keir was talking about was the riots, which i don't think is the same as disturbances at notpla. >> i think disobedience is underplaying what happened over the weekend. john two quite strong opinions there. but there's a problem. there is a growing perception in the country of two tier policing. that's my belief. >> there is that worry , and i >> there is that worry, and i think the prime minister has not helped with his very ill judged speech today because he's, as you said , blamed the whole of you said, blamed the whole of society. he said we're all guilty of this. and he says we now live in a very divided society. well, there's nothing wrong with divisions of opinion in a democratic society if they're expressed sensibly and

if they're sorted out by the ballot box and by votes and arguments, what we don't want is violence. violence is a crime. and the prime minister has sometimes spoken and said it's a crime. so he's now got to prove that he and the various police forces are fully enforcing the law in a totally fair way. whoever is guilty of the violent crime. and i think you're right to say it's quite difficult drawing these distinctions, that this is definitely a riot and this is definitely a riot and this is definitely a riot and this is just people behaving badly. and what we surely want is to deal with all crimes of violence as serious crimes. and we want a prime minister who doesn't blame the whole of society, or think that britain is a basket case, but a prime minister who's proud of our country and understands that most of us, most of the time, live good lives and are well disposed towards our neighbours. >> david cameron and nick clegg in 2011 say about the riots there, they said there was something wrong with society that it had got to this stage. the initiated, of course, by the murder of an innocent black man, but, you know, kind of spiralled

out. they blamed and they said that what we needed to do was look at how society, not individuals and not of course, political parties needed to react to this. they were wrong as well then, weren't they? well i think they i think they were probably right. what they did do is they initiated an inquiry, and i think we probably should see something similar like that. >> on lloyd draws. lloyd draws a distinction between disobedience at notting hill and rioting. >> okay. so let's look at let's look at apples and apples. then let's look at the police reaction at hares hill, where they simply withdrew, allowed they simply withdrew, allowed the to community burn buses. they just left, left people who would no doubt in their houses feared for their lives. they were. they were left to do that also. so that's that's one area of rioting which was completely different. but it's also the reaction to it. so in the past when we've had things like the brixton riots, now you can argue for the rights and wrongs, whereas there's some real grievances around this. what would happen is, yes, there's been a riot, people are punished. and then there's an inquiry to say, why did this

happen? because then we can sort things out with the rioting that took place. and you can argue it was was it over southport, was it more general about immigration? was it other causes people not work. most of the towns, like bolton, where i'm from, they're very poor areas and there's less jobs there. is there underlying causes. but all you got from the prime minister is these are right wing thugs. we won't get upset. you're going to be locked up. there was no discussion at all. so when you talk about two tier policing, it's not two tier policing. as such, it is two tier government where they're setting these agendas, where people who are working class white concerns they've got are just dismissed. and if they do riot, they just dismiss the thugs . dismiss the thugs. >> if mike is right in his analysis , then those divisions analysis, then those divisions that that that , that, that bad that that that, that, that bad feeling that led to the riots, it's going to get worse, not better. >> well, again, we hope not. >> well, again, we hope not. >> but we hope not. >> but we hope not. >> in 2011, it was also people blamed the edl or whipping it all up, etc. as well. if you

remember, the inquiry was launched, a number of months after the rioting. it was deliberately launched after the bulk of the sentencing was completed, and then it took three years to go through the two and a half years to go through the mill. now, i think it's probably too early for the prime minister to at this moment say we need to do an inquiry because they're doing the sentencing, and what you want is the quick overnight courts, which is what we've had in previous riots to get that over and done with. i do think there is a problem with law and order more broadly in this country that people genuinely feel that when they call the police , they when they call the police, they won't get called out or they won't. they won't come. and more importantly, that there is a lack of community policing. when people stole from the local co—op previously and they were known figures, the community police support officer was able to react. we've seen huge cuts in those numbers of people, and it's not that you need detectives on the ground, but you need people who know the evidence on the ground. something work with people. >> gentlemen. thank you. something is going very wrong. i'll finish this segment by just

repeating that more than 147,000 people accused of offences including sex crimes, violence and weapons possession, were given community resolutions in the year to march . there is the year to march. there is a societal breakdown of that. there is no question what so everin there is no question what so ever in a moment, let's talk about the upcoming budget. just how grim is it going to

be? >> i'll have more to say on. >> well, some of your reaction to that debate. is it two tier policing under two tier? kim? melanie says it's ridiculous having a carnival and all these police looking after them double standards. walking days finished long ago because police don't want to police the roads. sick of this country ? definitely two of this country? definitely two tier policing. there is an argument of course, melanie, what they ought to do with the

notting hill carnival is put it all in hyde park. so you could have metal detectors for everybody going in. i think that would be a rather better idea, john says. nigel, it's not two tier policing, it's three tier policing. oh dear, dear , dear. policing. oh dear, dear, dear. this all gets very, very complicated now of course there are 10 million pensioners in some state of shock. they weren't really expecting the government to take away their winter fuel allowance. but there's a budget coming up in a few weeks time. and i had a sort of rather a sense of foreboding about this budget. i wrote a piece in the express today saying, brace yourselves, there is worse to come, more shocks to come. well, i tell you what, i didn't have to wait very long because here was our prime minister, sir keir starmer. this morning. >> i'll have to turn to the country and make big asks of you as well to accept short term pain for long term good. that difficult trade off for the genuine solution .

genuine solution. >> oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. it doesn't sound good. i did start the programme by saying things can only get worse. now. much of this is because the tories lied to the country and there is a £22 billion black hole that needs to be filled. not to mention, of course, the 2.7 trillion black hole that is the accumulated national debt. now, john redwood, i know that you've said i stood down from parliament because i felt unable to defend the last government's record. but what do you make to this claim of the £22 billion black hole? >> well, you can get to 22 billion, particularly if you add in the 10 billion of big page pay in the 10 billion of big page pay awards that they've now made on their own account. but what they don't do is look at any of they don't do is look at any of the areas where there's huge amounts of waste and unnecessary losses. and i would say to this government, you say that you're about to do things you don't want to do. if you don't want to do them, don't do them. you're the government. cheer us up.

stop mugging us. don't go in for this artificial austerity which we really don't need. we want a growth strategy. and i think your party has picked up one of the things i've been pointing out for 2 or 3 years, the bank of england is losing tens of billions of pounds needlessly. every year by refusing to take the sensible actions that the european central bank and the fed are taking in a similar position. and why don't we cut some of those billions out of all the losses? why are the railways losing or absorbing £33 billion now of taxpayers money? and why does this government think it's right to give the train drivers who are paid a lot more than many other workers, a huge increase, 10,000 a year increase without any productivity gains? i'm all in favour of people being better paid, and i want people in the pubuc paid, and i want people in the public sector to be better paid, but let's have more pay for delivering something. productivity has collapsed under the covid watch of the last government. we need to get that lost productivity. back then we

could afford to pay people. we're told, john, we're told that our gdp is going up and it's going up more than many other members of the g7. >> is that is that a little bit of good news? yeah. >> for half a year now this the last government actually delivered some good figures in its last half year. we were the fastest growing g7 economy which is labour party's aim for the longer term. i wish them well. i think they're going to find it difficult to sustain the excellent first half year, and inflation was at last to down 2%. so they'd got the two magic figures in the right place. this government now says they're going to make them worse. and they will make them worse with they will make them worse with the policies they're following. i wonder, lloyd, you know, big increases for the public sector cuts for many , up to 10 million cuts for many, up to 10 million pensioners pain to come in the budget. >> is this kind of a labour government that rewards those it thinks will vote for them and says to hell with everybody else. >> no, i think you have to go back to rachel reeves speech just before parliament recessed.

and i listened to that quite carefully, where she talked about the failure of the conservative government to properly inform the pay resolution bodies , where the resolution bodies, where the government normally puts in a realistic figure. does that make sense? so the pay resolution bodies look at the claim and then they look at the counter—claim from the government. the government in all cases, including the railway workers, failed to put in their counterclaim, effectively . and counterclaim, effectively. and so rachel reeves said , i will so rachel reeves said, i will pay- so rachel reeves said, i will pay. therefore, what the pay awarding bodies have agreed, because that's the system. but i will never again not put in a cost analysis. and i can assure people that this next year will not be the case. and i think what they're doing is they are fulfilling the pay awards now. but saying you've got that because we want a clean slate because we want a clean slate because of the mess up that's happened, but don't think you're going to be getting that every yeah going to be getting that every year. well, that may be true. >> that may be true. what is

what is for certain is that it's going to be a budget in which taxes go up. he couldn't have been clearer with the signal today. is it going to be as with the 20% on private school fees, is it going to be those that earn good money or have big savings that are really going to have to pick up the tab? >> well, i don't think that, the very poorest in our society are able to pick up the tab very much , and unless they're going much, and unless they're going to try and make some squeezes on benefits, which by all accounts causes huge other social issues down the line. i mean, we've talked a bit about the riots. i'm sure that there will be some narratives around, you know, white working class communities feeling unemployed, living on benefit. so actually , i think benefit. so actually, i think that the government would be unwise to do that. the question is, how far do you go down that list of people that can afford to pay, and some people will always be on that cusp. now, i think that there are some easy wins, aren't there? there's no

kind of capital gains changes. there's potentially even national insurance changes to tax, some national insurance for some unearned, some unsalaried incomes , that you could extend incomes, that you could extend to or even look at that 50,000 threshold, you know, flat taxes were something that libertarians talked about. maybe national insurance has a flat tax for everyone. would that would raise already about £30 billion if you did something like that. so there could be some big tickets that won't harm the vast majority of people. >> well we'll see. i mean, my worry, john, and your experienced enough to remember the late 1970s is the brain drain. it's happening again. and my concern is it's not so much the super rich that are leaving. it's the 30 something entrepreneurs that have started to leave this country. what do you expect from this budget? >> well, i expect bad news budget, which i think will make achieving faster growth much more difficult because if you don't reverse the dreadful taxation position of the self—employed and the small businesses, if you don't sort out business rates, if you

decide that taxing capital gains as income is a good idea , if you as income is a good idea, if you fiddle around with the special reliefs for private equity. far from having a bonanza of enterprise and private capital, which is what the government rightly wants, and i fully support you get the opposite. and we've lost an awful lot of non—doms. i personally think having a lot of rich people in the country spending money and creating jobs and investing money here and paying tax on the things they do in britain is quite a good deal. and the hauans quite a good deal. and the italians and the french want them and they're taking them. well, they're competing, aren't they, because we're kicking them out the tories started it and labour are going to finish it off. on capital gains. >> john, this this concept of unearned income, you know, you haven't really worked for this. therefore you don't deserve it. but actually it was jeremy hunt that introduced this concept, not the labour party. >> well it's an old treasury concept. the treasury has always advised chancellors to tax capital gains at your marginal income tax rate, and all previous chancellors have been, or most of them have been, sensible enough to say it's not a good idea, because as far as the individuals are concerned, they've often paid income tax on

they've often paid income tax on the money in the first place when they first earned it before saving, and then they've invested it and then they're investing it. and i thought we wanted an investment boom. >> and investment means. >> and investment means. >> so you've got to take the taxes down. and investment in investment means risk. >> but it means risk as well. >> but it means risk as well. >> but it means risk as well. >> but you can do that with allowances. so what you can do is you can say you can have an allowance of the money that you invested into this. but once you start to draw more than effectively was taxed initially, then you've got to pay earned income tax. you know why? either income tax. you know why? either income tax. you know why? either income tax or including national. you're not going to give them anything back. >> if they lose money, some of these investments will go completely wrong. so you've got to allow people to make money when they do the same with the energy market. >> you don't give them any all this green energy investment. >> and then as soon as anybody makes any money out of it, you tax them to death. >> the very phrase unearned income says there's something that isn't quite right about this money. and that isn't the case. it's quite wrong. but you see, what we're doing here, folks, is we're exercising free speech. but i wonder, i wonder, with the boss of telegram going to prison, i wonder, is free

under threat? this already talking about amendments to the online

bill. well, in the online world there is one hell of a lot going on. the online safety act is to be reviewed following the riots, which may lead to legislative change and an extraordinary mea culpa today from mark zuckerberg, who admits and regrets that he censored content on facebook and instagram during the coronavirus pandemic. at the bidding of the biden administration. he also admits that when it came to the hunter biden laptop in the run up to the 2020 american presidential election, the story was temporarily demoted on his platforms and that he now regrets that they did that . he regrets that they did that. he also says, yes, i did help raise $400 million for the democrat

campaign last time round, but my goal now is to be neutral. so quite a big mea culpa from mark zuckerberg. but all of this happening at the same time as pavel durov, 39 year old multi—billionaire founder of telegram. the telegram is probably the best encrypted of all of the apps to have conversations on it. it's got nearly a billion users, which is pretty remarkable. some say this is an awful platform because terrible things get said and done on it. well the same actually applies to tiktok and to all of those platforms. but equally, if you were living in an oppressive state, there is far less chance of the state getting hold of your private conversations. if you're on telegram and indeed, he stood up in 2014 to putin, putin said, look, i want all the information. i want all the conversations from navalny and you're off. point blank refused and left russia. but i wonder

what the instincts are of this government. i wonder what lloyd russell—moyle thinks about this potential amendments coming is free speech under threat? >> well, let's see where the amendments come. i must admit, i'm more on the libertarian spectrum on these issues within the party, and i do worry sometimes that my party can have a more authoritarian tendency on some of these issues of free speech. people have to be able to say things that are unpleasant, sometimes upsetting, and nasty. we need to find ways that there are that, that people face consequences, that isn't the law. now, what i think is quite interesting is people bemoan cancel culture, but actually, to me, cancel culture is exactly where free speech and people's reaction to things that they don't like should be. it should be. if you don't like it, then don't buy the products of that company that you're saying those things. if you don't like it, don't go to the show of the

performer that's doing those things. no, i agree with that. don't tune in to the channel. i agree, and what i worry about is that we've got this backlash of people saying, oh, i've been cancelled. well, you've only been cancelled if there are enough people that are not wanting to go to your show, and if there are enough people that agree with you, you won't be cancelled, will you? and on the other side, i think that we need to be very clear in law, if you are inciting people to do things, that is different. but to me, that's where the line should end. and yes, there can be other consequences, but not legal consequences because one, we haven't got the time in the courts, but two, it becomes quite chilling because something i might like to do that is totally distasteful to you and john should not be restricted if it isn't causing no harm. >> it's tough to know john what to believe these days, isn't it? i mean, here is zuckerberg basically telling us that there was information about the vaccine, which could cause harm. all vaccines have potential side effects. it's a question of how big a risk you think that is. and i think the really big one was we kept being told as long as you keep getting jabbed, you can't pass coronavirus on. and well, actually, the medical

profession were telling us that simply isn't actually the case. it's pretty clear that on facebook and twitter and elsewhere, we weren't having that conversation difficult, isn't it? >> i don't think it's as difficult as they're making out. i mean, first of all, i was a bit nervous about the last government's online harms bill, and i think if it's then made worse by clamping down even more on free speech, i become quite alarmed by it. and my view is that you want legislation against harms that apply, whether it's online or in any other mechanism. so do the same rules apply? >> do the same rules apply onune >> do the same rules apply online as they would giving a speech for argument's sake? >> that's what i think should happen. i think if it's direct speech or if it's human contact or if it's online, there has to be a law against nasty racism and a law against incitement to violence and a law against terrorism . and i don't think terrorism. and i don't think there's a special online version of any of those things. online is just a means of furthering some of those evil criminal intent. so what i'm very worried aboutis intent. so what i'm very worried about is clamping debate on a big public policy issue like

vaccination, where you want maximum number of views. there's still corporate libel. so people ought to be careful they're not actually saying a drug company is making a big mistake or something if it's not. but i want an open debate on that because we, the public, need to because we, the public, need to be informed about the risks of , be informed about the risks of, you know, i mean, this, this, this, this platform. >> telegram, nearly a billion users very, very successful. and i made the point in the intro that actually, if you were living under an oppressive regime, you would be you would think that telegram was a very, very good news. isn't the behaviour of the french government and some of the language coming out of the european commission on this stuff? pretty worrying. >> well, i think i tweeted about macron not being a liberal, but being an authoritarian centrist earlier on this week. >> i know you're on the on our side on that. >> i think there is also a worrying tendency with those kind of authoritarian centrists. i think what is interesting about zuckerberg's admission is that i think he's sounding more and more like a news organisation that sets algorithms to promote certain kinds of views that and okay,

that's fine, but if you are a news organisation, you have a different level of liability for them. what is published? telegram is very clear, totally encrypted. they have no idea what happens in between. it's a free space. now that might be a free space. now that might be a free space. now that might be a free space. that is difficult, but just like someone saying something in a pub or saying something in a pub or saying something in a in a park, you don't. you don't criminalise the pub landlord. >> for someone saying, i mean, they're saying it's a platform for organised crime, etc. zuckerberg what you see is him saying, well, we made deliberate algorithmic choices to allow certain news things to be high up. >> now that is a newspaper, if you ask me, and therefore he should then be under the laws that we have for publishers. now, that i think would change the whole debate, which he's always fought and fought and fought. >> i remember him coming to the european parliament and fighting it and making those arguments. you can have one or the other, i don't mind, and i think there is space for both. >> but i think the danger is when governments want free spaces to suddenly start promoting certain things, because what they'll do is they'll promote things that we

like now, but they might not promote things that we like. >> and who's next? >> and who's next? >> is it elon musk next? i mean, if they're doing this to pavel durov, who's to say that he wouldn't be arrested in france? >> well, this is the danger, isn't it? and i think you've made a very good distinction, and that if you wanted to go into the opinion business, then you have to have the full weight of publishing laws upon you. yeah. and i think what you want is just modification of the extremes for an online publisher or any other publisher, that they shouldn't be providing a free access to people to say, go and blow up something tomorrow and blow up something tomorrow and this is how to do it, because that is extreme and that is a crime. but the danger is you move from that to making everything you don't like a crime. and then we've lost our free speech. >> yeah. i'm worried, i have to say, genuinely worried. i can see a clampdown coming. and i'm certainly worried about mr durov being under arrest in france right now. seems to me the guy actually is a bit of a hero. stood up to putin, could easily have been slung in jail, stood up to him and then decided he couldn't stay in russia any

longer. well, in a moment, we're going to discuss green energy. is the government's proposals for green energy. indeed, the company they're going to set up, doesit company they're going to set up, does it offer us a really bright, exciting future with cheap energy? as we were told dunng cheap energy? as we were told during the election ? well, we're during the election? well, we're going to have a quick look at what's happening in new zealand and ask ourselves a question. are we going perhaps a little bit too quickly

if you think already we've had a if you think already we've had a fierce debate in this country fierce debate in this country about energy, its future net about energy, its future net zero, the cost of energy, energy zero, the cost of energy, energy security. believe you me, you security. believe you me, you ain't seen nothing yet. this is ain't seen nothing yet. this is going to be, i think, one of the going to be, i think, one i'm great political debates over the course of the next few years. now, it was boris johnson who very much and theresa may, to be

fair, very much set

have real problems. and i'm afraid that what has been happening is market prices for electricity in new zealand have gone through the roof. we're going to the detail of that in just a moment. several factories have simply had to shut. they just cannot afford to continue. and the risk of blackouts is all too real now. south africa is a country that goes through blackouts. texas had blackouts a couple of years ago. think about it. think about it. couple of years ago. think about it. think about it . we've never it. think about it. we've never been more reliant on electricity than we are today for our mobile phones. our computers, and of course, for watching gb news. so this debate really , really this debate really, really matters. and i wonder , i just matters. and i wonder, i just wonder, lloyd, whether what's happening in new zealand is a warning that if you go too far, too quickly , being reliant on too quickly, being reliant on forms of energy that are intermittent , whether we're not intermittent, whether we're not taking whether the labour government. and by the way, i

think boris got this all wrong too. but whether the labour government aren't taking a massive risk. >> well, i think you have cherry picked some nice bits of new zealand, but what you fail to mention is new zealand was one of the first countries to fully deregulate and marketize its energy. totally private, with no state generation or coordination, no state subsidy, no contracts for difference, which we have to make sure that the right kinds of things are being built in the right kinds of places. and so the new zealand, argument is not just a net zero argument. it's a failure of neoliberalism in the energy market, the idea that energy market, the idea that energy is just a commodity that you can price , and there will be you can price, and there will be a statistical elasticity. elasticity. i can't say the word in the market, i.e. demand will shift depending on the price, which it doesn't. it doesn't. and so the reality is that these are not market forces. they need to be more planned. there are elements of the market that can interface with it that we want

to encourage. and what labour wants to do is say, actually, we wants to do is say, actually, we want to draw back from some of that failure of the market. we need a bit more planning here. we want to partner with not to not to expel , but partner with not to expel, but partner with private corporations who want to be part of this, or small home owners as well, that want to be part of this generation revolution. but we also understand there needs to be some overview overview on storage, overview on generation, and particularly if you're talking about big generation ticket items like nuclear, which again, new zealand doesn't have because new zealand's been nuclear free ideologically, which we have not been . and all which we have not been. and all governments, whilst you can blame them for not building enough, all governments generally have accepted that josh howie is part of the mix. >> good old days. we're back to the good old days where the state knows what's best. we cannot allow the unfettered free market. it must warm the cockles of your heart. >> well, the state is deliberately destroying a perfectly good energy system. we had in the name of decarbonising, which is making us chronically dependent on

imported energy from the european union, which is about 9% very short of energy. >> but 9% of our electricity is imported. >> well, and it's going to be a lot more than that on some days it's 20, 20 plus percent. we're about to see the end of all but one of our nuclear power stations, and there are no proper plans for replacing any of that. any time soon, and somebody needs to get on with it. i've been urging this country to build some gas turbines to see us through a 20 year period before we get to the new nuclear, and until we get to a way of storing enough solar and wind. but this chronic dependence on wind and solar, it's great on a day when it's sunny and there's plenty of wind, and we get more than half of our electricity from it. some days we get as little as 6 or 7% from all the solar and wind put together, and then we are chronically dependent on imports and the goodwill of others. and we are close, reaching the point where we won't have enough backup capacity of any kind. so there will be power cuts here. meanwhile, we've gone for an

incredibly expensive energy price because we've overtaxed oil and gas, and we're running our oil and gas down much more quickly than we need to. and having to import pretty expensive oil and gas at high marginal prices. so we are deindustrialising market. do you want to de—industrialise us the taxing the taxing of oil and gas is when it is being dug out of the ground, but when it is bought for the generation use, it is bought on the international market. >> and so the idea that it's true for oil makes a difference. >> that is true for oil, but not for gas. gas does not have a global commodity market in quite the same way. and you can see that. but the fact that american consumers pay 50% for their gas. but here's my worry. >> a european market. but we but we could buy it under contract in the uk under the terms of the contract. here's my worry. we are disagree on that. >> we are. we have developed, you know, more energy from wind in particular than any anybody else in the rest of europe at this stage. yet our electricity pnces this stage. yet our electricity prices are higher than any other

country in europe. do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe that by pursuing this policy we will have cheaper energy? >> well , we energy? >> well, we are one of the most deregulated markets in europe and we have therefore seen energy cash seep out of the system. and that's why we've had to introduce these windfall taxes, which actually are on par to the kinds of taxes that european countries have been quite used to, and other oil producing. areas are quite useful. >> are you confident? >> are you confident? >> are you confident? >> are you confident that changing the model of the marketplace , that going hell for marketplace, that going hell for leather, for wind and solar? are you really confident it will give us cheaper prices? >> i am confident that in the longer run, if we have a mix of nuclear, of hydrogen and of wind and solar and wave, you know , and solar and wave, you know, tidal, well, that's 20 years hence, not now , then we can get hence, not now, then we can get there. there is a transition problem. now, i think actually gas turbines are interesting, aren't they ? because you can

aren't they? because you can build gas turbines that can both burn gas, natural gas and they can be used for hydrogen in the transition. >> if the technology works. we're not there yet . we're not there yet. >> well, we are there. >> well, we are there. >> i wish we were we are there with hydrogen turbines. >> the bit of the technology you're not talking about is the storage of the hydrogen in large amounts. but but i think we really know well how to do it. we need to get on with it. but i think there are some transition things rather than being ideological, that we can say, look, we can get this in. it will mean us drawing down gas and maybe at the same time, what we do is properly start to buy our own gas rather than just sell it on the european market and then buy it back. >> well, a final thought, john, a final thought. >> does it make sense, john, for to us import oil, we could produce here to import gas. we could produce here and to import steel we could produce here. because actually many people like it because it means our carbon emissions go down. >> well, no, it's nonsense because the world's carbon emissions go up. i mean, i've fought like mad to get our own gas out of the ground because instead we're importing lng and all that extra energy to

transform gas into liquid. put it in great big tankers driven by diesel engines, and then do the reverse when you get here means it's 3 or 4 times as much c02 means it's 3 or 4 times as much co2 and no jobs here, no money here, no tax here. all the tax revenue, all the best paid jobs go to america or qatar . why go to america or qatar. why britain do you do this? why does the government have to do something so crazy? >> well, i want to say thank you very much to my panel. if you're sitting at home and you've been watching the last hour, give them a round of applause, because actually, what you've heard are two people with passionate views , intelligent passionate views, intelligent men, having a grown up argument. and that actually is the democratic process in this country. it's something we should celebrate. it's a joy, isn't that right, jake? >> it's absolutely marvellous. i said to you, i was almost late getting here because i was listening to john and lloyd arguing with you, and it was so gripping. i didn't want to come out of the house and come to work. >> well, you've made it. >> well, you've made it. >> i got here in time. >> i got here in time. >> you've made it. so tell us,

what are you going to talk about tonight? well, i'm going to be talking again about dishonesty of starmer, this idea that he was shocked by what he discovered makes him sound like captain renault in casablanca. >> shocked, shocked as he's handed the casino winnings and it's really extraordinary how sleaze ridden the new labour government has begun and how quickly this has happened and how holier than thou are. they still pretend to be, so i'll be going back to that whilst they're pretending they need all these tax rises, which they don't need. it's all invention. it's deeply dishonest, but i suppose it's what you expect from a man who did all these u—turns to win the labour leadership, and then junked all the policies that he'd advocated to get the corbynista support. >> well, there we are, folks. >> well, there we are, folks. >> you know precisely what's coming up next in the next hour with state of the nation with jacob. i'm done for today. with state of the nation with jacob. i'm done for today . back jacob. i'm done for today. back with you tomorrow night at 7:00. but let's have a look at the all important weather. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on . gb news.

weather on. gb news. >> good evening from the met office. here's your latest gb news weather update. whilst there is still a bit of rain around for some of us across parts of the south east, we're looking ahead to some hot weather tomorrow. that's because we're staying ahead of the front. that's lingering across parts of the uk at the moment in the south—east and so some warmer hot air pushing its way in. but where we're under the front as we go through this evening and overnight, there will be some more cloud and some rain. so particularly across parts of northern england, southern scotland, but also wales and the southwest later on seeing some rain as well. also some patches of mist and fog here in the south—east. because of that warmer, hotter air temperatures aren't going to drop a huge amount tonight. and in fact, even further north, not turning particularly chilly because of the cloud and some showery rain across parts of scotland and northern ireland. so across scotland first thing, yes, there may be some heavier, showery bursts, perhaps clearing away , but on the whole for many away, but on the whole for many it's starting largely dry , but it's starting largely dry, but some showers quickly moving into the far west of scotland, also

the far west of scotland, also the far west of scotland, also the far west of northern ireland, having some showers but dner ireland, having some showers but drier further east, and then that front lingering across northern england, bringing a damp start to the day here for some, and down western parts of wales and southwest england . wales and southwest england. also a bit of wet weather here. further east, though, lots of dry, sunny weather to start the day tomorrow, particularly across the midlands, east anglia and the south east. and here it's going to stay largely fine through much of the day. across the southwest, any rain is likely to break up and so it's going to turn drier here. meanwhile, across scotland and northern ireland, heavy, showery rain pushing its way in from the west. in the southeast, temperatures are going to be highest higher than today. highs of around 28 or 29 celsius. as we go into thursday, there will be more showers across parts of scotland. northern ireland, perhaps northern and western england and wales, as well, but further south and east you have a greater chance of staying dry with plenty of fine sunny weather. temperatures won't be quite as high as tomorrow, but nonetheless feeling pleasantly warm in the sunshine. and there's more fine settled weather to come for most of us

as we go through the end of the week. by a brighter outlook. >> with boxt solar, sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> hello. good evening, it's me, jacob rees—mogg on state of the nafion jacob rees—mogg on state of the nation tonight. starmer continues to sink in his slough of sleaze as we witness the rapid crumbling of trust in his administration. within 50 days of his winning, the general election on a holier than thou ticket. meanwhile, eight stabbings and 334 arrests have occurred at notting hill carnival. will we see emergency court hearings and fast track sentencing? if not, then surely this vindicates allegations of two tier care . facebook owner two tier care. facebook owner and founder mark zuckerberg has admitted it was wrong to censor people during the pandemic, amidst dystopian calls for ofcom

to be granted emergency powers