resets. our relationship with the eu is that something that makes you go yes or not.7 your thoughts? also, makes you go yes or not? your thoughts? also, lots of people are taking steps to try and protect their hard earned wealth from starmer. are you one of them? also, an escalation now in ukraine. simple question for you. how involved should the uk be? and lucy letby, when i say that name, what do you think? do you think one of the biggest uk

child killers, or do you think miscarriage of . justice. all of miscarriage of. justice. all of that and more. but first, the 6:00 news headlines . 6:00 news headlines. >> michelle, thank you and good evening . the top stories. the evening. the top stories. the prime minister says a new uk germany treaty will be part of a wider reset, with europe. sir keir starmer has been in germany to launch negotiations on a new bilateral treaty , which hopes to bilateral treaty, which hopes to boost business and increase joint action on illegal migration. speaking earlier today during a joint news conference with the german chancellor in berlin , he chancellor in berlin, he described it as a moment of opportunity to deepen links between the uk and germany. >> this treaty is part of a wider reset grounded in a new spirit of cooperation with our shared understanding that this

will be developed at pace and that we hope to have agreed it by the end of the year. a britain reconnected , resetting britain reconnected, resetting our relationship , rediscovering our relationship, rediscovering our relationship, rediscovering our common interests , delivering our common interests, delivering for working people . for working people. >> meanwhile, back home, the chancellor has addressed sir keir starmer's warning that the autumn budget will be painful. speaking today in scotland , speaking today in scotland, rachel reeves defended the government's decision on winter fuel payments. >> the truth is that these are not decisions that i wanted to make, but these are decisions we had to make given the inheritance that we face from the conservative government, and there will be more difficult decisions to come in the budget later this year. that is the stark reality after the mess that the previous conservative government have left. this labour government to inherit. it means difficult decisions, but without difficult decisions we are going to face serious problems with our public finances . i will not take the

finances. i will not take the risks that the conservatives have taken previously. that would put our economy in danger. >> energy minister miatta fahnbulleh says the government's top priority is helping the most vulnerable customers this winter. >> money first came into government wanting to target the winter fuel payment, but in the end, we've got to respond to the world that we've inherited, not the world that we would have liked. and yes, the chancellor has had to make a tough decision on this. my priority and the priority of everyone around that table is what we do this winter to support customers that are struggling with bills, customers that are vulnerable. and i feel confident that we have the beginnings of a package. there's a lot of work that we're doing, but there is absolutely commitment from the government, from everyone around the table that will come to a measure that can support our most vulnerable customers. this winter. >> the ministry of justice says the immediate pressure on spaces in men's prisons in england and wales has eased significantly in the last 24 hours. the latest comments come following the

release of new figures yesterday, showing there are just 100 spaces left in male prisons across england and wales. it comes after the activation of early dawn, where defendants in active court cases are kept in police cells until standard prison spaces open up. on friday, magistrates were told to delay jailing criminals as the number of people in prison hit a new weekly high. leader of the house of commons chris philp called for more spaces in prisons during last year. >> every week there are about 100 additional net. additional prison places were created by the previous justice secretary, alex chalk , so they were alex chalk, so they were bringing on 100 more places each week than were being retired or withdrawn for refurbishment. so i think the solution to this is more prison places. and in the very short term, these rapid deployment cells are dcs are what i would like to be see being used. >> and this comes as cleveland police says an 11 year old child

has been arrested over disorder in middlesbrough during the riots. cleveland police said officers had detained a further 14 people in connection with the disorder on the 4th of august. while sir keir starmer has condemned the violent scene at notting hill carnival, which left 61 police officers injured, the prime minister says i was very clear about the 2011 riots, which had a different genesis to the recent rise. but he also added i'll condemn anyone using violence that as the man has been charged with attempted murder over the stabbing of a mother at notting hill carnival . mother at notting hill carnival. 20 year old shakeel taibu has appeared in court today charged with the attempted murder of 32 year old share maxmin. she's now in a coma in a life threatening condition. two other men have been charged in relation to the same incident. the three men are brothers . in other news, the 28 brothers. in other news, the 28 year old man has been handed a suspended prison sentence after throwing items at nigel farage dunng throwing items at nigel farage during his general election campaign. video from the incident showed mr farage

shielding his face, while items believed to be coffee cups were thrown towards him. appearing at barnsley magistrates court, josh greeley was sentenced to six weeks in prison, suspended for 12 months. gb news can exclusively reveal that more than 20,000 migrants have crossed the english channel illegally so far this year. the milestone was reached this morning as hundreds more made the journey in small boats from france. it's after 526 people arrived illegally in uk waters in eight dinghies yesterday . and in eight dinghies yesterday. and sir keir starmer is now in paris ahead of the paralympics opening ceremony this evening. the prime minister arrived at the elysee palace earlier today, greeted by his french counterpart emmanuel macron. 4400 paralympic athletes from 184 delegations will come together to celebrate the start of the 11 days of competition. the athletes will parade down

the avenue des champs elysees before arriving at the place de la concorde . and those are the la concorde. and those are the latest gb news headlines for now. i'm tatiana sanchez. more from me in an hour for the very latest gb news direct to your smartphone, sign up to news alerts by scanning the qr code, or go to gbnews.com forward slash alerts . slash alerts. >> thank you very much for that, tatiana. and michelle dewberry. and i'm with you until 7:00 tonight alongside me, my panel. and look at this. it's only 6:07 and i've been enlightened by them already because alongside me, i've got the columnist at the mail on sunday, peter hitchens, and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani. one of these two gents. and i shall leave it to your imagination to figure out who has just been telling me all about mail shirt suspenders. i never even realised it was such a thing. i

shall leave it to you to work out who indulges in those kind of things anyway. look, this is not just about us three and what we were. it is very much about you guys at home as well. what is on your mind tonight? there is on your mind tonight? there is lots i want to get stuck into with you. 11 year old getting arrested for these riots. what about that fella you've just been hearing about in the news? then who chokes up at farage? is he going to prison, no he isn't. is this two tier policing? you tell me, lots of ukraine. i want to talk about that. and lucy letby, when i say that name to you, do you think one of the worst examples of child killing in this country, or do you shout at your screens and say, hang on at your screens and say, hang on a second, potential miscarriage of justice. where are you? one of justice. where are you? one of my panel has very strong opinions on that. get in touch gbnews.com/yoursay is how you get me on the website or you can email gb views @gbnews. com or of course you can tweet or text me, but wherever you are, you are very welcome. let's kick off then with that 11 year old. i wasn't actually going to cover this story. you know, because i talked about writing a lot last

night. but something about this age 11 primary school child , it age 11 primary school child, it stopped me in my tracks . look, stopped me in my tracks. look, the justice you've brought apparently they have called on prosecution of children to be a last resort. i mean, 11 year olds are in bastani getting arrested for this kind of behaviour. and we've not just had 11. we've had 13 year olds, 15 year olds, 16 year olds and so on and so forth. is this just fair? law and order or. >> well, in this country the age of criminal responsibility is ten. and if somebody older than that has been viewed or has allegedly broken the law, then obviously they'll be treated , as obviously they'll be treated, as an adult. that's just simply how our system works. i, i certainly don't think an 11 year old should be punished for their involvement in this disorder. but then, of course, it depends on what they've done. if it's simply something they've said or incitement. no because like you say, they're a primary school child. if, however, somebody has, you know, has physically

assaulted somebody, i think that's very serious. so do i think they should go to borstal? no. but as a country we have a criminal age of responsibility at ten. and that's that's where it is. well, i think that's to i think that's too young, by the way. you think what i think criminal aged responsibility at ten. i think that's too young should be. >> what then. i think probably somewhere between 12 and 14. >> probably 12, 14. >> probably 12, 14. >> is it in 12 in scotland? am i right in thinking that. is it 12in scotland? is it 12in scotland? i have no idea. i'm sorry, i think it is. i don't know why i would randomly know that fact, but i'm sure it's 12. that fact, but i'm sure it's12. i will get someone to check and i'll update you anyway. i'm sure the specifics of this 11 year old will come out in good time, so i don't want to get into the specifics of him. i'm asking generally 11 year old primary school children, is this the kind of thing that the police should be spending their time looking to arrest? >> well, isn't the first question what did these people allegedly do? if they behaved in certain ways, then it's perfectly reasonable for the police to have arrested them and for them to have been put through some sort of procedure.

what happens to them afterwards is a different question. there was a grave danger with first offenders of making things worse by hitting them too hard with with too much punishment, but the shock of being arrested could be quite effective in the life of somebody. and it's almost certainly worth doing. but the question has to be, what were they doing when they arrested the police? can't ignore certain types of bad behaviour. it would be dereliction of duty. they ignore far too much as it is, and i'll never criticise the police for refusing to ignore things. i want them to stop ignoring things in general. no, there may be many worries about what you do afterwards to someone who's been arrested, and you have to been arrested, and you have to be quite thoughtful and clever and subtle about it. in many cases. but arresting somebody for , for doing bad things in a for, for doing bad things in a pubuc for, for doing bad things in a public place, it doesn't seem to me to be out of the to something you could rule out just because someone has is 11 years old. >> i don't want to state the obvious, nor tell other people what to do, but i do want to point out a basic, parenting kind of fact. if there is law

and order occurring, a breach of law and order, a riot, or whatever you want to call it in your town, as a parent, you would do quite well, i think, to make sure that your children are absolutely, as far away from it as possible from a safety perspective around anything else, because i've seen a few examples now of people actually taking their children to those things. can you imagine how scary that must for be those children? i also, before i move on from riots, aaron bastani i want to pick up that point we've just heard in the headlines there, so the fella you will be familiar with that clip, i'm sure nigel farage he was on an open top bus, some fella kind of got into, i don't know, the technical term, but like a covered off area, which had kind of building waste in it. he chucked some rubble coffee cup , chucked some rubble coffee cup, whatever. at nigel farage, he has got a suspended sentence. so why do you get. here's this clip. why do you get a suspended sentence for trying to cause harm to someone like nigel farage? but you will be locked up for, i don't know, putting

something on facebook? >> well, all i can say is congratulations, nigel farage because i was thumped in the middle of the street by somebody because of my politics, and the police didn't even process that person. they weren't even charged so well done, nigel, because at least something's happened to the chap. and i don't say that lightly, by the way. i mean, i was shocked. i was shocked to my own personal experience at how nothing was done because, in the words of the police, he'd had a bad time recently. so apparently you can't just charge him. >> well, so is that what you. so you're telling me so you got walloped, i remember that, yeah. >> you were very kind about it at the time. i think. >> i think it's appalling. i think in society we're allowed different views. you don't go round hitting someone because you think differently for them. i'd be. i would have been battered about ten times over by now if that was permissible, it's wrong. are you telling me? then the police came out and said he was having a bad day, so he's had a hard time recently. >> and then they said, because you have this kind of. what's it called, i don't know. they had some particular word for it.

he'll send a letter to you apologising. i didn't even get the letter. >> restorative justice. >> restorative justice. >> restorative justice. >> restorative justice? >> restorative justice? >> that's the one. >> that's the one. >> i didn't even get the letter. presumably because it's been outsourced to some, you know, some social enterprise or something. but i don't even get the letter. i don't get the letter. nothing happens to them. we don't in many instances, we don't have law and order. we don't have law and order. we don't have law and order. we don't have a police force in many parts of the country. much of the time it's almost like a pseudo it's a pseudo rule of law. and so in this instance, you might disagree with the sentencing. personally, i think if it's a first time offence, good character. i don't think he should be going to prison. of course, i don't think that you might disagree. but at least, you know, i would say it's a nigel. at least he was charged. >> what do you think, peter? >> what do you think, peter? >> well, i think eric makes a very good point about the police. who are largely absent. iused police. who are largely absent. i used to be slightly embarrassed about saying this, but i now say it with absolute conviction. the only thing we can do about the police is to is to begin now, to recruit a proper police force of perhaps 100,000 people who are prepared to do what the police used to do thatis to do what the police used to do that is to patrol on foot, preventing crime on their own rather than walking about in pairs, discussing overtime. and once you have achieved that police force and trained it,

then we disband the existing one because it's a total failure. it doesn't really exist, it doesn't doesn't really exist, it doesn't do anything for me. it's a state police, rather than a police force serving the public and i would cheerfully get rid of it. but you can't just get rid of it. it has to be replaced by something else. i reckon you might. it might take a couple of years replacing, but if i had anything to do with the home office, if i, if i had the power to reform the police, that is what i would do. i would, i would, i would recruit and train an entirely new police force on robert peel principles, the ones we used to follow until about 1965. and when it was ready to, to move in, i disband the existing police force as a failure. >> but what would be different in everything the police would? >> the police would be present instead of absent. the police would be preventive instead of reactive, instead of waiting for crime to happen, and then and then charging about in fast cars with sirens, they would be there before it happened and prevent it from happening. they would be the friends of the public, and the friends of the public, and the public would be their friends. and in alliance, the police and the public are a fantastically so. >> they'd be doing more dancing and more clowning. no, they would be doing no dancing at

all. well, how are they going to make friends with their community then? >> well, i don't think i don't think everybody in the community wants, as you call it, wants to dance with the police. >> a lot of people do. >> a lot of people do. >> and i don't know anybody who wants to dance with the police. and i have to tell you, i don't want to dance with the police. i think, frankly, michel, it's a trivial objection. and. no, it's a very serious, a serious point. >> it's a very serious point. and let me expand one of the criticisms that many people have with the police force at the moment is they spend too much time dancing on pride process painting their mistake. >> they mistake pressure groups for the public. they don't see the difference . pressure groups the difference. pressure groups and political campaigners are wholly different from the general public, who the police regard with bafflement because they never meet them. the only members of the public they meet are the ones who've committed crimes, or the ones in lobby groups. they have totally lost. >> so how do you make friends with your communities then? >> by being. by being there. what the. you're so young. what the police used to do in this country. they used to walk along the street on their own, making themselves available to the

public. they were always visible . public. they were always visible. they were constantly there. they were presence in towns. they were presence in towns. they were presence in the countryside. people knew them. they knew who to go to. they. they knew who to go to. they. they talked to them. the police heard what they said. >> well, in this day, a lot of police have taken the knee to slogans such as acab. i'll let you figure out what that means at home. go on aaron. >> well, right now, my experience of the london metropolitan police service is either they're very surly, aggressive, rude, hostile, or they're twerking on tiktok. and i agree with peter. maybe there's a middle ground here where they can just be affable, thoughtful, civilised, polite , thoughtful, civilised, polite, courteous, helpful. i think perhaps that would be a wise way for them to conduct themselves, >> what do you think ? you have >> what do you think? you have strong opinions, and i know that many people actually get in touch with me when we talk about policing. either you're a retired police officers or current serving police officers. you will have strong opinions on that. get in touch and tell me, look, i want to talk to you. there's a lot i want to squeeze into this programme about keir starmer. you know what? we shall take a break and i'll do that

afterwards. i also want to talk to you about lucy letby, and i want to ask you, involved should we be in ukraine there

hello, everybody. i'm michelle dewberry alongside me. i've got peter hitchens and aaron bastani. graham has been in touch and said, quite simply that you are spot on, peter, and that you are spot on, peter, and that the police are no longer fit for purpose. you know, i feel sorry when people say that because if you're a serving police officer, it's all well and good sitting here behind a desk talking for a living. but when you're a police officer, you literally risk your life every single day. you respond. you run to danger. you have no idea if you're going to return home and see your loved ones at the end of the day, and when people are writing in stuff like that, declaring all police are not fit for purpose, i wonder what that does to your morale. if you're serving, get in touch and tell me. let's talk about keir starmer. then shall we? because there's a few things going on today. we've had this whole kind of announcement of the brexit reset when starmer

was in germany. of course, he's moved on to macron now schmoozing over there. and also there's many people now that are getting quite anxious. shall we say, about that rose garden speech yesterday , aaron, where speech yesterday, aaron, where he was going on about all of this pain that is yet to come. so choose. you can talk about eu or you can talk about starmer. it's up to you. >> pain. yeah. isn't it. is it interesting i'm going to sound like a broken record but things can only get better. was the was the anthem of 1997. now it's things are only going to get worse and maybe they'll get better in several years time. not particularly alluring as an electoral message. hence, we didn't really hear much of that before july the 4th, on brexit quickly, it's interesting how the mood music is turning a corner on brexit, trying to be more friendly with the french, with the germans, and yet substantively on things like the erasmus exchange programme. no movement on this idea of free movement on this idea of free movement amongst under 30s you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. they're not adopting it . as a policy. they're not adopting it. so i'm not so sure. maybe this is starmer showing a

bit of leg to remainers while really conceding the fundamental political truth , which is that political truth, which is that if he tries in any way to undermine brexit, reverse brexit, he's going to be out of the door of number 10 quite quickly. certainly this parliamentary term, maybe that will change in five, ten, 15 years. but before 2029, i think laboun years. but before 2029, i think labour, as much as i disagree with them on other stuff, have been very canny on this subject. they know that brexit is an achilles heel for them, so i would be surprised if they made overt loud gestures in regards to brexit. in terms of a new trade agreement with germany. makes sense. it's a three and a half $4 trillion economy. massive exporter . massive exporter. >> can you have a new trade agreement with germany? germany? well, allegedly in the european union allegedly alleged to trade on european union terms. exactly. well, i can't see how how that could work. i think there's an actual i suspect the germans probably quite want to do that. let me put something to you. there's an actual big practical problem facing this country. quite soon, which is the european union is going to introduce quite stringent checks on people travelling to european

countries from this country. they're going to be very onerous and extremely unpopular. it will be enormously long queues at dover. be enormously long queues at dover . it will be enormously dover. it will be enormously long queues at the eurostar terminal for people trying to get in through these fingerprint facial recognition checks, which are coming at some point. i can never get a date out of the home office as to when they are coming, but they are coming. they're going to be fantastically unpopular and politically disastrous when they come. i think the government really, really wants to try and prevent them from happening and is actually signalling some sort of negotiation to either postpone them so far off that they never happen or to get rid of them altogether. and i think there's a big, big worry underneath. wait till this happens. it will it will be the ludicrous position, especially if you're going out through doven if you're going out through dover, where people will be struggling to get out of the country through all kinds of police checks and passport checks and facial recognition, where a couple of miles away, boats will be pouring in with people walking into the country with no checks at all. it would be so ridiculous that no government will be able to withstand the ridicule which will result from it. i think they're really frightened about

it, and i think one of the reasons they're doing all this schmoozing is to try and get a deal about that, amongst other things. it's going to be so bad, i warn you. >> do you agree with that? is that a concern of yours or not? >> most people aren't aware of it. they just don't know it's coming. >> and what about this seven? was it ,7? >> there will be a fee. you'll have to pay for it as well. you have to pay for it as well. you have to pay for it as well. you have to pay for the privilege of being double checked. but it will be. it's based on the american esta system where you do pre—clearance, but it's quite intrusive and it will involve so much more bother at the border . much more bother at the border. >> would it put you off travelling to the eu though? you tell me, what about this whole people go to spain? >> a lot of people go to go to france. i think you'll find they do. >> i'm going to france actually. very soon, what about this whole pain thing then? economically? because a lot of people are actually looking at their lives and going, hang on a second, i've grafted, i've earnt a little bit of money, i've got it in a bank, i've got a bit of savings coming in, or i've got this or i've got that, or i dabble with some shares or whatever, is starmer going to come along now and take a lot of

this off me? >> well, you might recall that before the general election, i said that labour will increase capital gains as that's going to happen. and of course, labour didn't say that. and i think they almost certainly will. look, i think if they bump it in line with, income tax rates, i mean, that would well, they did say they would because it was one of those things they didn't rule out. >> they didn't rule out everything. they didn't rule out. they were basically saying to anybody with half a wit, they were going to increase that. >> but not everybody can be peter hitchens. >> but that's that was the implicit not hard that was i mean, look, if they bump it up, capital gains 2 or 3%. >> i mean, i was here with zia yousef a few months ago, actually. very smart chap. the donor to reform. he said, look, that won't be the end of the world. and i think most people would look at that and say, look, we've got a labour government coming in after the tories. we do have this deficit. last year, £120 billion, okay, a couple of percent. if that's all it is. fine. the idea of equalising it, i would like to see lower income tax and higher capital gains. but they're not that adventurous. i think they'll just bump it up. 2 or 3% would be my guess. >> we had a big fallout about this, didn't we? one of the times that you and i have

probably fallen out on this show about tax, i just think it's absolutely pathetic, turning around and one of the things that gets me everybody, we've got a prime minister who apparently cannot even buy his own clothes. he is a grown man expecting a donor to pay for his spectacles and his pants. and then he is lecturing everybody else about how tight we've got to do our belts up. i mean, i think the hypocrisy and the ridiculousness is off the charts, quite frankly. anything else you want to add on starmer or should we move on? no no no ho. 110. >> no. >> quickly. i mean, i don't know if people were watching yesterday that tie he was wearing was rather fetching. i think it may have been a christian dior one, but it's true. he's been at the top of his professional game for decades. he was the director of pubuc decades. he was the director of public prosecutions. surely he has to money buy nice clothes. he does. >> it is. it is odd that he should have accepted these gifts. but there it is. he's declared them. and then the fella draw our own conclusions. >> a parliamentary pass. >> a parliamentary pass. >> it's much more interesting. and it slipped to one side, the way in which big labour donors are being given jobs in the permanent civil service that is a really serious development and

a really serious development and a constitutional putsch. and this fuss about the downing street pass and lord alli has completely driven it off the front pages. it's much, much more important than more significant people should be far more worried about it. you should not be able to have people coming into the into the civil service as established civil servants after they've given huge donations to the labour party. it's just wrong. >> but i heard someone from the labour party trying to defend that. i think it was last night and he was saying, hang on, if someone's been committed to the labour party, you know, ad infinitum, he's wealthy enough to give some money. why should he then be excluded from helping advance that government in a apparently neutral role within civil service? >> the civil service is politically neutral, and you can't you cannot serve in it while openly professing a political allegiance. that's a constitutional point. that's what it's for. it has to be able to serve any government that's elected by the people. and if it's full of political placemen, it's full of political placemen, it can't do that. the americans have a politicised civil service and it doesn't work very well. and if that's what you have,

that's what you have. we don't have it and we shouldn't start getting one now. >> well, of course, don't forget starmer. he was very passionate wasn't he, about rooting out cronyism and cronyism. can you imagine what he would be saying if this was a tory government and someone was buying rishi sunak's clothes and then milling around parliament, etc? you can have the final word on that one. lots of you getting in touch with me about lucy letby. don't worry, we'll be coming to that. but now i want to talk to you about ukraine. look, the situation there has now changed, escalated, advanced, whatever you want to call it. of course, here in the uk, we're constantly pledging our ongoing support for ukraine for, i quote, as long as it takes, i've got to say, i'm not sure there's much clarity on what it actually is that we're trying to achieve alongside them. anyway there's been requests for more intense weapons , the uk kind of hedging weapons, the uk kind of hedging its bets a little bit, saying one thing to zelenskyy while trying to perhaps not upset the us. on the other hand, peter hitchens, what do you make to

all this? how involved should we be with all this? >> well, not at all. as i've said from the start, it isn't it isn't our business to engage in a proxy war between the united states and russia on the territory of ukraine, a war which seems to me to be pointless and damaging to everybody involved in it. and i'm amazed that there isn't more criticism of it. until quite recently, most major wars in the world attracted a lot of criticism. this one somehow or other doesn't, and there's hardly anybody in this country who ever says there's anything bad about it. it is catastrophic for the people of ukraine, a country now whose power grid is in ribbons, many of whose cities are in ruins, whose people have fled in large numbers, which which has lost huge numbers of young men to death and disablement and disfigurement in war. and for what? ukraine was actually perfectly content , actually perfectly content, independent country on the borders of russia until the united states began pushing the idea of ukrainian membership of nato and creating in that region tension that wasn't there

before. what was the point of that? i don't see it. and people say, oh, appeaser, it's nothing to do with appeasement. it was there was a perfectly workable compromise over the position of ukraine, under which the people of ukraine were reasonably happy and content and certainly weren't being blown out of their homes or killed in large numbers. and it was brought to an end and it was brought to an end, in my view, by foolish, a foolish policy adopted not by the united states as such, but by a foreign policy faction in the united states who aren't, in my view, very bright. and we, when we support it, as if it was some kind of great crusade against evil. it isn't like that. >> aaron bastani. >> aaron bastani. >> well, i agree that this idea that you would just give £3 billion to a foreign power, willy nilly, no questions asked, the objectives aren't clear is outrageous. it's ridiculous. i look at portsmouth, where i've come from. you could spend probably £80 million and make the city look fantastic. you could do up all the stations, revive the city centre. the same for bournemouth. the same for most medium sized cities. we're

sending not 3 million. we're sending not 3 million. we're sending 3 billion every year to this other place. and like i say, tens of millions could transform any particular town or city in this country. really extraordinary when you think about it . at the same time, i do about it. at the same time, i do understand the argument, which is 30 years ago, the ukrainians were told to give up nuclear weapons as a deterrent against any. no, please don't say that. >> no, no, no, that's not my opinion. ukraine never had any nuclear weapons. the worst soviet nuclear weapons on ukrainian soil, which which ukraine neither controlled nor could launch nor could keep secure. they were no more ukrainian than the american missiles at holy loch in the 19505, missiles at holy loch in the 1950s, and seconds in this country were british. well, so the argument ridiculous to call them. well, the third argument. >> well, the argument would be, and i don't agree with it, but the argument would be that there was an agreement made several decades ago which ultimately left ukraine weaker and therefore we owe them a debt. do we owe them a debt? i mean, you can maybe make that argument

that we should certainly seek peace, but i think sending £3 billion a year forever is just which we have not got. >> and we can't. i don't think we've got any , any hunter killer we've got any, any hunter killer submarines at sea anymore . most submarines at sea anymore. most of our navy is tied up alongside because it doesn't work. we're already talking of cutting. seriously the purchase of f35b jets , which are supposedly jets, which are supposedly essential for both the navy and the air force . our army, as we the air force. our army, as we know, is smaller than the army of vichy france. in 1941. we have no proper defences of our own. why are we spending all this money on this war? what is the british interest in it? apart from staying as close to the americans as we possibly can, which has never struck me as a particularly brilliant or clever policy for this country to follow, why do we what is the end game? >> because one of the challenges is when you've got keir starmer standing there talking about, you know, really difficult times and people of britain, you know, you're going to have to really tighten your belts. a lot of pensioners now, you're not going to get your help to heat your homes and so on and so forth.

you know, money is really tight. this then it feels like such a contradiction to then be able to say, but on the other hand, just ad infinitum, we'll just do whatever it takes. what do you think is what do you think is behind that? what do you think is driving it? >> washington you know, keir starmer, we don't we don't want to have an independent foreign policy. i'm actually i'm personally shocked at some of the moves made with regards to gaza. unrwa. you know, basically saying that we'll recognise the icj . i'm shocked because that's icj. i'm shocked because that's put clear water between london and washington. i'm shocked, but that absolutely will not happen in the case of russia, ukraine, we don't have an independent foreign policy in this country. we haven't for well, as peter, so lucidly writes, arguably since 1941, so , that's the since 1941, so, that's the that's the main reason. and to quickly answer the point about, his messaging, you can't prior to the general election say hope change. i'm the alternative. get the tories out and then immediately say, you know what, we're going to adhere to all the tory spending plans. what was

the point of the general election? what was the point in changing government? >> look, you guys, when it comes to this ukraine thing, you're very, very divided. >> ian says it's very simple. we need to help as much as possible without putting boots on the ground. and then when the war is finished, he says the uk must be the first in there to help them. >> what does he mean by finished? >> what would be the finish of it? >> and there you go. >> and there you go. >> that is the million dollar question. what are the war aims, if you like? what are the objectives of this? ian? perhaps you can get in touch and tell us. jonathan says people like peter are basically suggesting that ukraine should wave the white flag and let russia take over. >> oven >> people are getting absolutely not suggesting that, though i've never suggested it at all. >> it's a complete fantasy. i think that ukraine should should have remained united and a fully sovereign country, and before it was interfered with and before the suggestion was made that it should join nato. that's what it was. >> well, there you go, paul says, michelle, we should not be any more supporting ukraine. the objective is not clear. one

minute it was all about defending themselves. but things seem to have changed now, he says, to proactively attacking russia, susie, you've got in touch and said, can i just give you a positive police story? yes, you can actually, she says , yes, you can actually, she says, i work for the police and i'm very proud to do so. she works on something called project vigilant, which is protecting sexual offences in open public places . she says it's a places. she says it's a fantastic, worthwhile cause and more police forces are now taking this up. and she feels that initiative is making a real difference. well, thank you, susie, for the work you do . susie, for the work you do. coming up after the break. i can tell you now so many people have been getting in touch about this story. the name lucy letby. what does that mean to you? does it mean on the one hand, one of the worst uk serial killers of children? or does it mean in your mind , perhaps one of the your mind, perhaps one of the biggest miscarriages justice this country has ever seen? we'll

hello everybody. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm with you until 7:00 tonight. alongside me, i've got peter hitchens and aaron bastani, one of my viewers on twitter, peter says it doesn't matter how many, millions this person suggests has been spent on keir starmers wardrobe. i don't think it's millions, by the way. whatever this person says, he'll never look as dapper as you. >> dapper that that's fighting talk. >> that's a nice compliment, isn't it? >> well, no . i've spent all my >> well, no. i've spent all my life in a sustained effort to be scruffy. >> oh, they. oh, well , they. >> oh, they. oh, well, they. well, i don't want to be dapper, i give up. >> i was trying to give him a compliment. it was your viewer. >> it was. >> it was. >> it was. >> i won't bother next time. >> i won't bother next time. >> david, you don't look. >> david, you don't look. >> lots of people getting in touch about that 11 year old, the person, the kid that's just been arrested asking a simple question. where was the parents for an 11 year old paul? he says michelle, an 11 year old getting arrested. surely this was just a child that got carried away in the heat of the moment. he

probably had no idea at all what he was doing. this is a disgusting level of law enforcement. what a world we live in, jackie says. if a child is taking part in the riots and gets arrested, michelle, why don't we make the parents pay for any costs incurred? because quite frankly, the child should not be there in the first place. lots of comments coming in as well about starmer resetting our relationship with the eu. lots of you reiterating that point , of you reiterating that point, john says we voted to leave the eu and it must always be respected. niall or neil, you say the treaty with germany is the beginning of the end of brexit. it is a total betrayal, he says. very strong opinions there, lots of people just saying. susan says he's got no right, no mandate to reset our relationship. is there anyone out there that's in favour of what he's doing? sees it as a positive step. get in touch and let me know. but look, one name has really got all of you talking a lot at home tonight. and that is, of course, the name

lucy letby. we all know by now who she is. she is the nurse that's been convicted of multiple murders of children . multiple murders of children. seven in fact, this is the chester hospital. but i've got to say, since she was sentenced, she's got 15 whole life tariffs. i think it is. so long story short, currently she's going to die in prison. she's just had a request for an appeal that was rejected, she is in prison. she is someone that's described by many of my viewers as a horrendous person, serial killer. some words that i can't also describe. other people, peter, are shouting out, not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. you've written about this extensively. where are you on this? >> well, i don't say she's not guilty because i'm in no position to know as any. lots of people will no doubt be pointing out to me before the program is oven out to me before the program is over. i wasn't at the trial, for instance. i haven't sat through it all. i haven't heard all the evidence. what i do have, though, is a strong feeling that the conviction is unsafe , that the conviction is unsafe, that she was not convicted on the

bafis she was not convicted on the basis of serious, firm, objective evidence that she had done the crimes of which she was accused. in fact, is a very bizarre case. when you look at it, it's all hypothetical. there is disputes, to put it mildly, over whether the and i have to say here because it's sometimes, sometimes brought up in this argument that it's wrong for people like me to campaign for a re—examination of the case because it will upset the, the parents of the babies who died. i say nobody could be any more sympathetic than i am to those parents. we all are. but i don't think that the fact that their children have died should make them any less concerned about justice than they than they were before, or does do so. and justice is very important . it is justice is very important. it is the case, and i'm not saying that it is. i'm saying that it seems possible if it is the case that lucy letby has been condemned to spend the rest of her life in prison and she isn't guilty, then it's a terrible injustice against which

anybody's conscience should be engaged. anybody's conscience should be engaged . and there are so many engaged. and there are so many people now statisticians, medical experts , particularly, medical experts, particularly, who are coming out in public and saying they find that the case made out against her is weak. and there was a very similar case in the netherlands a few years ago of a nurse called lucia de berk, who was similarly excoriated and called all kinds of names and then eventually completely and utterly exonerated after quite a similar examination of her to case one which people like me are calling for. it is there are serious people here, as i say, experts such asi people here, as i say, experts such as i am not, who are disturbed by the nature of the evidence. so i felt really from quite an early point instinctively, that there was something wrong with this trial. and i continue to do so. and i think nobody would be disadvantaged by the case being reopened by the legal system. if she is guilty, then it could be shown that she was guilty on a much firmer basis than it has

been. if she isn't guilty, then she should be released. >> i've got to say, you've got quite loud voices now talking about this , the david davis, about this, the david davis, he's been speaking about it a lot. mike lynch, of course, we followed that story. he sadly lost his life in that accident with the birds. a couple of weeks ago. he apparently was wanting to look into this case. he felt that there was a potential injustice done there as well. 24 neonatal experts have written to the government asking for a public inquiry. i've got to say. i mean, when you read some of the impact statements of the parents, and i'll bring you into this in a second. aaron. but when you actually look at some of the parents here and you understand how it's been impacting them, i mean, the statements are just they're heartbreaking. a baby boy for example, who died just before 6 am. on the 14th of june, 2015. of course, lucy letby . she denied an allegation letby. she denied an allegation that she'd injected air into charles's stomach and so on and so forth . but when you read some so forth. but when you read some of these statements, they just

devastating, one mum, child a and b, because that's the children have just been given letters. they talk about just the devastation of their life , the devastation of their life, that it will never be the same again. their minds are traumatised. what should have been the happiest times of their life had become their worst ever nightmare. she was thankful to the nurse, lucy letby, for saving or helping save one of the children's lives, only for that child then to be able. sorry to have lost their life that night. they talk about the gaping holes in their family, that everything has been taken away from them, they feel that their life now they struggle with anxiety, depression , ptsd, with anxiety, depression, ptsd, they say to lucy letby that you thought you could enter our lives and turn it upside down. you will never win. they say , we you will never win. they say, we hope that you live a very long, long life and you spend every day suffering for what you have done. maybe you thought by doing this you would be remembered forever. but i want you to know my family will never think of you again. from this day you are

nothing to us, and i cannot help but wonder what these families actually make to some of this. there's very strong opinions from you guys at home. i'm going to bring you into the conversation in a second, i'm going to take a quick break, though, because after i come back, i want aaron bastani to come in and give his thoughts. so lucy letby, what do you think to what has happened, your thoughts, and i'll

hello everyone. michelle dewberry peter hitchens, aaron bastani remaining alongside you. i want to carry on this conversation about lucy letby. i'm a mum of a boy that was born very premature. i spent six weeks of my life in a neonatal intensive care unit. it's an experience you can't even really possibly describe accurately to someone that's never been there. these babies are tiny. one of my viewers, alvin , you got in viewers, alvin, you got in touch.i viewers, alvin, you got in touch. i read your message earlier on today. actually, his wife died whilst giving birth,

very sadly, and he wanted us to discuss this topic tonight. he's just been in touch and said, michelle, please can we separate the feelings of the parents from whether or not there has been an injustice? he feels very strongly about that. aaron bastani, where are you on this? >> yeah, i think that's critical because you want everybody wants this few children to be subject to this kind of event as possible. a few families to suffer this kind of loss as possible. therefore, a miscarriage of justice helps nobody. if there is a separate reason as to why some or indeed all of these children have died. and it has nothing to do with lucy letby. it's critical we ascertain what that is. now, i agree with peter . i wasn't at agree with peter. i wasn't at the trial. there is this quote unquote confession, but some other evidence does seem rather shaky. we have from the crown prosecution service last week, confirmation that the door swipe data for the hospital in question, which was relied on by the prosecution , was entirely the prosecution, was entirely erroneous. so this is from the guardian. police had wrongly thought that the swipe data

showed nurses leaving the unit going into the labour ward, when in fact they were returning to the neonatal unit . then there's the neonatal unit. then there's the neonatal unit. then there's the issue of rotors . the issue of rotors. statistically, there was a lot of misrepresentation going on. for instance , i believe the for instance, i believe the jurors weren't shown all the deaths, just the deaths that happened on lucy letby watch, this is often referred to as , this is often referred to as, cognitive biases were basically inveighing all the time with regards to the arguments made by the prosecution . but one the prosecution. but one question i have for peter, because he's very, very familiar with all of this, is that the rotor evidence is quite weak. you had the police and the cps screw up with regards to this door swipe data. my question is, surely lucy letby, his defence lawyer just isn't very good or wasn't very good. >> i don't think either of us was in a position to say that it's a very difficult case to fight, because precisely because it's so hypothetical. there were two hypotheses. one hypothesis is that the babies had been killed. and remember that when

they initially when pathologists looked into the deaths, they did not they did not come up with any suggestion. there had been foul play. the second is that lucy letby killed them. and enormously complex hypotheses about air embolisms and insulin were produced to explain how she could have killed them. but there is not. and i challenge anybody who's studied the trial to reply to this. there's not a single, as far as i know, objective piece of evidence against lucy letby suggesting that she actually did the things of which she's been accused. lesley's confession is entirely well, it's not a confession. you know, these were these were the a deeply unhappy woman in the midst of writing , writing sort midst of writing, writing sort of howl of rage and misery. it's not a confession. she's always maintained her innocence. absolutely without question. >> so what do you want to see happen? >> an inquiry or an appeal? >> an inquiry or an appeal? >> an inquiry or an appeal? >> an appeal? >> an appeal? >> i want an appeal. i don't i think that what the court of appeal then does is up to what

the evidence is heard. the court of appeal can do two things. it can quash the convictions and quash the sentences and free her, or it can order a new trial. >> so there you go. either of those things would be better than what we have now. that's what peter hitchens wants to see. >> what do you think to i know people say separates the parents feelings from justice, but i just, you know, i can't imagine what these parents must be going through because it's so traumatic. you then think you've got that closure. you can move on to the next chapter of life, and then all this, of course, we need proper functioning law and order in this country. what do you make to it all? that will be a conversation. we perhaps continue another day, but for now, gents, thank you very much for your time. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> thank you to each and every one of you at home. i very much appreciate your company. don't go anywhere though, because farage is up next. but i'll see you tomorrow night. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar, sponsors of weather on gb news . news. >> hello. good evening. welcome to your latest gb news, weather

update brought to you from the met office. thursday will be a breezy and showery day for northwestern areas elsewhere , northwestern areas elsewhere, though dry and feeling fairly warm in the sun, but it is going to be a fresher day tomorrow compared to today. as as this weather front is expected to clear away to the south and east throughout tonight, taking with it some rain which will affect northeastern areas of england, some eastern areas of scotland through this evening. still a few showers across the north and west, but for many of us it will turn much drier and clearer overnight tonight. so that does mean it's going to be a fresher night. temperatures will fall away into single figures , rural away into single figures, rural towns and cities just about in double digits. so fresher but bright start to the day for many areas. however, across the north and west there will still be some quite frequent and potentially quite heavy showers . potentially quite heavy showers. across many southern areas, we could see a few patches of mist and fog developing, particularly across western counties of england, a few showers pushing into parts of wales potentially as well as northwestern england and northern ireland. but i think the most frequent and heaviest showers will affect the

western isles, the highlands , western isles, the highlands, through thursday morning. they'll likely linger through much of the day, a drier start across eastern areas of scotland. those showers will progress eastwards to affect these areas later on on thursday, as well as some eastern areas of northern england too. but elsewhere, as i said, it should be a relatively dry and fine day and it will feel fairly warm in the sunshine. as i said, it is a fresher day tomorrow compared to today. we'll lose that humid feel so temperatures just about 23 or 24 degrees at best in the south and east, widely in the high teens or low 20s. however, that's about average for the time of year. now, friday we've got high pressure centred across the uk, so more widely settled day, plenty of sunshine through the day, away from the very far north of scotland, and it will feel fairly warm in the sunshine, but it could be another fairly fresh start. and that theme continues into the weekend. however, as we head towards sunday, a risk of showers does develop across the south and east. see you again later. bye bye. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of

weather

gb news. >> good evening. as small boat crossings in the english channel reach a new record, we ask, can keir starmer's government actually stop this? and all of this. on the day that our prime minister is in berlin and he says he wants to turn a corner on brexit, does that mean we're heading for brexit in name only? and a controversial book claims that the truss government were thinking of cutting cancer treatment on the nhs as a means of saving their political skins after the budget. all of that, and much more after the news with tatiana sanchez . with tatiana sanchez. >> nigel, thank you very much and good evening. the top

stories. gb news can exclusively reveal