in tehran, sunset is 1 hour and 45 minutes , maghrib call to prayer is 184 minutes, and sharia midnight is 23.36 minutes. we will join the higher program and my colleague , mr. bozor, please install it. please, thank you, mrs. hosseinzadeh, in the name of god. i offer my greetings and respect . to all the special viewers of the higher program , we are at your service with another debate. it was almost announced in the news that something like 9.5% of our country has nationwide gas supply. we want

to hold a debate about this to see if the remaining 5% of gas supply is an economic task. basically, we are politics. we had nationwide gas supply, was it an economic thing or should we have used alternative energies like electricity . if you are interested, join us in this discussion . please follow

it on khabar network. thank you. you are a special companion of the higher program. in recent meetings, the leader of the revolution called the real competition one of the important pillars of the election, which means that the field is open for the presence of different political, economic and cultural views so that all currents with their own different views can participate in the big competition. selection. a competition make it real and register an active presence in this field. one of the topics that we have been talking about since the beginning and now , various experts in this field have different opinions on it . use energy. we should have a nationwide gas supply or use other energies more like some other countries that the critics say are doing this like the rest of the countries that are doing this . instead of delivering gas fuel

the supporters say that no, we are blessed with gas and we must have gas supply. this is the subject of our debate, we want to see basically which one of these energy delivery methods is more economical. basically , for these four or five percent who are almost left and have no energy, they do not use gas now, for example , gas supply should be done for them. let 's go to the other to the other to the other. i am pleased to welcome you as the energy companion of the special program . here in our studio, mr. daftarian, the chairman of the board of directors of the gas engineering association, is present as the opponent of nationwide gas supply and the other side of the debate, mr. montazer torbati, the former ceo of the national gas company and the former deputy minister of oil, are present. i would like to say hello to both guests and ask permission to start and

end with the question of where your opposition to nationwide gas supply comes from. allahu rahman al rahim , i am not against gas supply in principle, but the conditions of our country are such that we have no choice but to go for alternative energies . now, in the last 20 years, there has been an average increase of 5% in production. in a stable way, despite the fact that we performed very well and had an increase in production, nothing there hasn't been a year that we don't face the problem of gas supply during the cold seasons and we don't have to reduce the gas supply to the industry and power plants. from now on, we are in a situation where we not only

do not have an increase in gas production, but also with a significant decrease in gas production. we will face, that is, from now on, we don't have gas at all that we want to give to even there. and this trend will increase in a very alarming way, that is, we have calculated that in 1418, if we are optimistic, we can reduce the consumption growth from 6% to 3%, the amount of gas we need in the four cold months of the year will be 1500 million meters. cube. the figure is that if we do nothing, we can only make 20 million cubic meters of gas in 1418. now imagine you need 1500 million , we have 200 million production, if we assume that

our conditions are such that we can have foreign investment or let's have an income from the undeveloped reservoirs where we can. and not only that, almost the problem of energy supply is such that the country cannot be run practically under these conditions, so we we had to use energy other than oil and gas, and we formed five national energy congresses, which means management

to transfer to the country and unfortunately we have not been successful so far. in short, i said as it is at your service , we have to now. mr. daftaryan and your excellency, i invite you to attend . well, you see, the discussion of gas supply is a long-term program that has been carried out in our country over the past years. basically, after the islamic revolution , the process of the energy supply of the country has changed. there was no abundance, we considered gas as a disturbing commodity in the oil production sector, and mostly as a collection of

flare gases, the first gas pipeline was formed at all, and since we had no consumption, we exported the gas at that time. in the former soviet union, but later, gas was considered as an alternative fuel in the country, and since then , the issue of gas has been discussed in almost all eras, governments, parliaments, and different ways of thinking, and it has been the meeting point of all opinions. now what is the reason? my reason was that you see that gas is a fuel. clean fuel is mentioned and its pollution is much less than liquid fuels and it is cheaper compared to fossil fuels. therefore, an opportunity is always created for the government , whatever the gas supply develops. the possibility of exporting liquid fuels such as liquid gas and

gasoil and kerosene fuels increased. parliament as a driving force always. it has been looking for the development of gas supply because it has been requested by the people anyway , the people are very interested in being connected to the gas network, and the members of the parliament always appear in the parliament with all their thoughts as one of the topics they request and the promises they give to the people are the promise of gas supply and they follow this, so the consumption of gas in the country is four times higher than before. the government has had because of its economy, the parliament because of the effect that it actually has on people's views it was created by their own people because it actually made them well-being and gas is really a public welfare and the whole country because of environmental debates

because it is practically a clean fuel and this is because we actually developed gas supply in the country and to it has progressed to such an extent , well, one of them is the existence of gas tanks in the country, and we have a very good rank in the country's gas tanks, with the second rank in the world . it creates all these benefits for the government, the people and the environment. been. there are also economic discussions, which i will explain later if there is no time now thank you, mr. daftarian , how much did you agree with this? basically, since the beginning, as you are now , you say that the situation is not such that we want to supply gas to the rest that do not have the blessing of gas. be it but you said that you are not against nationwide gas supply . basically, we proposed it ourselves in the same

studies that we did in 1973. our first strategy was to establish energy management in the country, to form the so-called energy policy. the second strategy was to bring gas into the basket. energy means at the time we are talking, gas was not mentioned at all, as mr. mandes darbati said. our second proposal was to remove gas from the energy basket as a short-term solution, but we should focus on renewable energies in the energies that we have now . now methane, which comes into contact with the air , is a so-called strong gas, that is, 80

times more than co2 , it has a warming effect on the planet. in a long-term view, before the revolution , our plan was that we would not use oil and gas at all. let's not burn them and take them away to operate more economically in the petrochemical process. but until this is not ready, let's use it. in the proposal of many studies that we did in 1973 , it was that we bring gas to the energy basket equal to 2 million and that we can export 2 million of oil if we did not make this proposal. if we didn't act, our oil exports would have been cut off from 85 percent, which means we would have consumed all our oil ourselves, but since then, our plan was to go to the bottom of the plan. wind and sun, look at one kilowatt hour of electricity in saudi arabia now

1.04 the contractor sells to them, that is, the contractor himself , one cent, 13 cents per kilowatt hour, now in portugal, for example, one and a half cents, in other places between one and one and a half cents in iran per kilowatt. it costs 15 cents, which means, in fact, from an economic point of view, this is how it has become now. we in the home base, which was one of the projects that i implemented , had to lay about a thousand kilometers of telecommunications network. at that time, 45 years ago, all the stations we used to supply our telecommunications with a so-called solar panel , i remember last week. written by one of the engineers who was the head of that department, asked if they had any problems with electricity supply in these 45 years or 40 years

, he said no , it means reliable and cheap electricity. natrazi, we have both gas and electricity, which means that you are talking

about gas that is both easy to access and cheap. i mainly managed it myself , it took me a long time to be able to export oil we want to export oil, but our main goal was to provide our energy from renewable energies. mr. mantarez tard , do you now agree that we should supply gas to the remaining villages and cities or not , look at other energies. the issue is that the future of gas supply is different from the past . yes, the reality is that renewable fuels and renewable energy are actually providing electricity or energy from renewable methods such as electricity, such as wind or these methods. and no one has a difference of opinion about this issue, the issue of the whole price discussion it is for us, i remember it was in 1992 that the discussion

was actually. it was reported that the continuation of the gas supply process at that time, the parliament approved a law known as the clause, and then under the name of article 12 of the law on removing obstacles to production, this law became permanent . in that law, the working model was the economic model, which means that the parliament or the government he didn't give any money to the national gas company for gas supply. it was based on the economics of the work . it was in this way that it was supposed to be done if the gas company was economical. i remember that since mr. engineer zanganeh was the minister of oil , he gathered a group, mr. dr. created by being in the parliament, being different experts and coming to investigate the same debate , it is better for us to supply gas to the villages and cities, or

to provide electricity or other methods . it was still with gas in terms of price, then it was even with cng gas , electricity was ranked third, the reason is that in our country, electricity cannot be produced in the way mr. doftari says, it cannot be produced by the sun, it cannot be produced by the wind, the majority of electricity is produced fossil fuels and electricity are expensive in our country, that's why it was prioritized in that survey that i remember now. at that time, you can see that the liquid fuel that we used is almost like gas in the best case, the cubic meter is now priced between 20 cents and 25 cents in different sabbaths for consumption in petrochemicals, in export in other places, do something that you mentioned in your order . you said political pressures, for example , the representatives or the government itself, because it was the people's demand

, they supply gas. basically, what you said means that this work is uneconomical and the governments themselves. because of the popularity or because of the pressure , for example, representatives do this, no, no, it was because of the desire of the representatives and it was also economic i would like to tell you about my economy. now , look at the remaining 5%, this should be done. yes, it should be done. now, if you see, if we produce electricity with electricity other than the electricity we have now , we can talk about it, but if in the circumstances now the country and with the model that we have until now, in fact, we supply fuel in the country and we continue to produce energy. yes, i agree , i will tell you my reason. yes, i will tell you my reason. when a household consumes liquid fuel , it consumes approximately 2,500 liters of fuel per year . when we replace a 50-cent fuel with a 20-cent fuel or a 55-cent fuel with a

20-cent fuel, we have 25 cents. if we multiply by 2,500 , if i'm not mistaken, it's about 750 dollars per year, the difference in consumption of a household between gas fuel and fuel is the reason why you have given the permission to make this investment if an investor comes, or the gas company itself. do this as an investor , he can sell this alternative fuel. i remember at that time , he actually allowed it. this government has been in power for 3 years let's take the fuel difference for the cost of gas supply, now with those prices, if we want to calculate, then i remember that each branch was up to 10 million tomans, then it was up to 15 million tomans, now with the current prices, each branch has an investment cost of 100 million tomans, with return 3 years, the difference in the price

of two fuels is still justifying the cost of my inspection. it is for the sake of dealing with mismanagement in electricity production and production even in oil.

we produce almost two-thirds of the energy we waste for production and for this reason that the economy of gas will return there, but if you bring electricity and produce one cent instead of 15 cents , electricity will be much cheaper there, and if we make one cent, it is something that is being done. there are not two countries. if i had a diagram, i would show you here. you would wonder why we are here . when you see us, our country is a very special country . we have all the resources. we

have the first place in the world in oil and gas. we have, but our situation in electricity is much better than that we can use the sun for 300 days a year, and the so-called economic amount that we have in the sun is much better than our oil and gas, and i hope that the question is raised for the people, is it basically the right thing for us to actually take the gas to people's homes? let's actually take the electricity. well, this has been the case in countries where electricity is used as energy. it is mainly used in people's houses or as the main energy for heating and actually providing energy, as mr. dan

said, their electricity production models are different, those countries that produce electricity from water, produce from wind well, there, yes, and it is better to use electricity , but in our country, if we want, we can do it today instead of the amount of gas supply that has been done . look at us now. we consume 117 billion cubic meters of gas in our domestic, commercial and small industries, which mainly consume heating. sir , you know that the efficiency of this gas that we take to people's homes with the same technology of the existing heaters with the same existing systems is in any case , it is about 65% and higher, it is about 65%, but our power plants have an efficiency of 40% at best , that is, if we make the comparison that we have under the conditions we have stock, which means

we are producing electricity with very low efficiency. look , we can't delay our people for the conditions . now, the friends we have are actually in sarba . now our duty is to convey what we know to the country's authorities. do. we have a 25-year-old contract with china, which is capable of renewable technology and has implemented it. you see , last year, china installed 87,000 megawatts of solar electricity, which is more than the total electricity that iran has in 2023. 120 in 2023 in 2023 1000mw means it has this capability, we also have a contract with it, if we come to participate with china and iran, which i say is practical

, we will talk at some point, it is an idea, some time we will see if it can be done. when this contract is taking a long time, they say that people should not wait, right , no people, no, no, it won't take long at all , i don't think it matters at all , it's not me. it is not a matter of what we base the country's energy future on in fact, should we regulate a raw material or what method should we regulate are two separate issues. yes, you see , because our gas consumption in the country is too much , our resources are being limited . development of gas fields , let's invest in renewable energies, because you said we should use gas energy, see 45 for the same.

whether we should supply gas to the remaining 45 if the economy works or not is a debate, but the problem that mr. defar mentioned and the numbers that saying that the reservoirs are decreasing, this is not the way to think that it is 5% now , this issue is related to all gas supplies , that is, we have a problem with this rwanda, where there is nothing, 95% of this is a structural problem. it means that according to now, unfortunately, the problem is that we are discharging gas, the national gas company is producing gas , refining it, transmitting it , and delivering it to the people, but it has nothing to maintain the continuity of this work. we have all the gas money, all the resources of the national gas company and the beli naft company, and we spend it in other sectors for maintenance

this production itself. we don't spend any money . this is the basis of the work. in my opinion, if they really want to decide on this issue, especially in the next parliament, they should know to abandon the national gas company and the national oil company and spend all the funds in other sectors in the future . this is the current situation. it endangers the 5% that is not a figure because it is in danger , it is very dangerous. see, this number is very easy to understand . i am saying that we had a 5% increase in production for 20 years, despite the increase in production , there is always a problem with gas supply. we were experiencing a decrease in production in sardistan from now on a very young or three-year-old can calculate what will happen in seven, eight, 10 years, you don't have electricity, you don't have banks, you don't have internet , you don't have heating, you don't have cooling, we don't have anything

, you can't run the country at all. i mean, this is a tangible fact . i mean, today, when i plan, i can see with my own eyes how many years we have calculated for different years. if i show you my chart, you will see very clearly how our imbalance is reaching a point where it is no longer at all. there is no dissatisfaction, there is no gas at all. now , whether i bring this 5 percent or not, what is the difference? we are all a challenge to you, look at us from above . our energy defense has no management at all. we don't have any snoopers in the country who come to us. now , for example, the ministry of oil has fuel for the bineh sazi company . the oil company's refinery itself has the most energy . deal with the oil company, with the ministry of energy, why are you so energetic, with the rest, with the ministry of mining industry

, you know now, mr. kanim, there is no one in this country who wants to come , what does it mean that you now have 300 million cars in india? equal to one and a half billions of people are consuming turkey with us , india is one with us, which means that we have so much in my management that i said our first proposal to the country's management structure was that we in energy. which

forms the highest so-called pole of our economy, and it is important to you that if we cut off all the gas to the houses tomorrow, you know that we can have security, have national security , everything will go up in the air. today, i have to understand that to start to work means that if i don't realize it today, i don't have time to do something, that means i have to know now that i will be finished in 10 years. holiday from i have nothing, how can you manage the country? we have a strategy, we have seen the problem, we have also given a strategy on what to do from today, god willing, so that we do not face this challenge. therefore, the question of whether we should do it is not a question at all. once you came and compared one failure with another failure . you electricity, the price of electricity produced with the system that you have now.