the importance of elections in electing a strong parliament , the key is in the hands of the people, iranian coach sharaf iran.

you are a special companion of the higher program . here in our studio, mr. daftaryan, the chairman of the board of directors of the gas engineering association, is present as an opponent of the nationwide gas supply, and on the other side of the debate, mr. montazer torbati , the former ceo of the national gas company and the former deputy minister of oil, are present. greetings to both guests. i would like to start with mr. daftarian and the question of where does your opposition to the gas supply basically come from, in the name of allah, the most merciful, i am not fundamentally opposed to the gas supply, but the conditions of our country now it is such that we practically have no choice but to go for alternative energies. now, in the last 20 years , we had an average increase in production of 5% or more than 5% in a sustainable manner, despite the fact that we did very well and increased production. there has never been a year when

we do not face the problem of gas supply during the cold seasons and we do not have to reduce the gas supply to the industry and power plants. we will face gas , that is, from now on. we have no gas at all let's say we even supplied gas there and this trend will increase in a very alarming way, that is, now we have calculated that in 1418, if we are optimistic, we can reduce the consumption growth from 6% to 3%, the amount of gas that is in we need four cold months of the year.

if we do nothing, we can only make 200 million cubic meters of gas in 1418. now imagine that we need 1500 million , we have 200 million production, if we assume that our conditions are such that we can have foreign investment or earn income. from the places we can if we expand the undeveloped reservoirs , our gas amount will reach a maximum of 500 million 550 million cubic meters, which is a third of the gas we need, that is , even you have gas stations there , we have to cut off their gas, and not only that , the problem of energy supply is such that the country it is practically impossible to manage.

mr. daftaryan and your excellency, i invite you to attend . well, you see, the discussion of gas supply is a long-term program that has been carried out in our country over the past years. basically, after the islamic revolution, the process of the program , in fact, the country's energy supply, made some changes. our lack of abundance we knew gas as a disturbing commodity in the oil production sector, and mostly as a collection of flare gases, the first gas roll line was formed, and because we had no consumption, we exported the gas to the former soviet union at that time, but later on, the matter of transportation. .. oil transfer was discussed, oil sales were discussed, gas

was discussed as an alternative fuel inside the country, and since then , the issue of gas has been discussed in almost all eras, governments, parliaments, and different ways of thinking, and it has been the meeting place of all viewpoints. now, what was the reason? my reason is that you see that gas is a clean fuel it is mentioned and its pollution is much less than liquid fuels, secondly , its price is cheaper compared to fossil fuels, so it is always an opportunity for the government. it means that as the gas supply is developed, the possibility of exporting liquid fuels such as liquid gas and gas and kerosene fuels increases

. it has been the request of the people, people are very interested in being connected to the gas network , and the members of the parliament always appear in the parliament with all the thoughts that they actually have. one of the issues they requested and the promises they made to the people was the promise of gas supply, and they followed through on this. therefore, gas consumption in the country had 4 driving forces: the government because of its economy , the parliament because of the effect it actually creates on people's views. because gas is a public good and the whole country because of environmental debates because it is practically a clean fuel. we want for

the rest that has the blessing of gas we should not supply gas, maybe the gas supply will be cut off in the places where we supply less gas, but you said that you are not against nationwide gas supply. our first strategy was to establish energy management in the country , to form the so-called energy policy . the second strategy was to bring gas in the energy cold, that is, at the time we are talking about , gas was not an issue at all, as mr. varbati said, we even we used to heat our landscapes with gas heaters . our second proposal was to use gas as an energy basket as a short-term solution , but put the main focus on renewable energies. in the energies that we have now, gas

is the cleanest of all, but the gas itself is released into the air due to global warming and now methane. it is a very strong so-called greenhouse gas, that is, 80 times more than gas 3, and it has a warming effect on the planet. in a long-term view, since before the revolution, our plan was to not burn oil and gas at all and to convert them into a more economical petrochemical process. let's act, but until this is not ready, then let's use this. in those so-called study proposals that we did in 1973, it was to bring the gas in the energy basket equal to 2. be a million, if we can export 2 million oil, if we didn't do this proposal and we didn't act, we would have cut off 85 percent of our oil exports , that is, we would have consumed all our oil ourselves, but

since then our plan was that we would be in the bottom line of the plan. let's go to wind and solar . now in saudi arabia, one kilowatt hour of electricity is sold by the contractor for 1.04 cents, that is , the contractor himself sells one dollar, four cents, one cent, one cent, and 13 cents per kilowatt hour. now in portugal, for example, it is half a cent in some places. between one and a half cents in iran, each kilo costs 15 cents do. i mean, in fact, from the economic point of view, this is how things have become now. we in the nezigaran refinery, which was one of the parties that i was running, had to lay about a thousand kilometers of telecommunication network because of the oscar system.

we used to supply their electricity with the so-called solar panel . i remember asking one of these engineers who was the head of that department last week. they said that they have had no problems with electricity supply in the past 45 years or 40 years. this means reliable and cheap electricity . we are talking for a reason at all the main reason is economic, the second reason is that you are now in conflict, we have both gas and electricity, and electricity is much more serious, mr. montazer, you now agree that we should supply gas to the remaining villages and cities or go for other energies. see, the issue is actually the future of gas supply with the past. it is different from what mr. daftar is saying. yes, the reality

is that renewable fuels and renewable energy are actually providing electricity or energy from renewable methods such as electricity, like wind or these methods. difference i don't have any opinion, the issue of the final price is for us. also, in 1992, when the issue of gas supply was raised, the continuation of the process of gas supply, at that time, the parliament approved a law known as bandera 4, and then under the name of article 12 of the law on removing obstacles to production, this law became permanent in that model law. the work was an economic model, which means that the parliament or the government did not give any money to the national company. he did not pay for gas. it was the basis of the labor economy. what was it like? it was in this way that

it was supposed to be done if gasstani is economic. i remember from that time mr. engineer zanganeh, minister of oil to be. gather a group. mr. dr. afrideh is from the parliament, there are different experts and he came to examine the same debate , whether it is better for us to supply gas or electrification to the rest of the villages and cities. should we do it or other methods? at that time, the calculations that were done, almost the first priority was still with gas in terms of price, then even with cng gas, the third priority was electricity. the reason is that in our country, electricity is the way that mr. it cannot be produced by the sun . it cannot be produced by the wind. most of our electricity comes from fossil fuels and electricity is expensive in our country. because of this, levitt's survey was conducted , which i remember now. at that time, the liquid fuel that we used was approximately

50 cents and 55 cents per liter, the price of gas at best is between 20 cents and 25 cents per cubic meter. it is possible to use in different sabbaths in petrochemicals in export, in some places that you mentioned in your statement, you said political pressures, for example, representatives or the government itself, at all, because of the people's demand. basically, your words mean that this work is uneconomical and the governments themselves because of their popularity or because of the pressure, for example, the representatives are doing this, no , it is not because of the demand of the representatives , it is also because of the economy. let me tell you, look at the remaining 5%, this work must be done, yes, it must be done. that we are producing electricity now , we can talk about it, but if in the current situation, when the country is supplying fuel with the model that we have so far

, we are still producing energy in the country . yes, i agree. i would like you to see how much liquid fuel a household consumes per year we use approximately 2,500 liters of fuel , 200 to 2,500 is enough for hot and humid areas . when we replace this with gas , we replace a 50-cent fuel with a 20-cent or 55-cent fuel. it is about 30 to 35 cents, which if we multiply by 2500 , it is about 750 dollars per year if i am not mistaken, the difference in the consumption of a household between gas fuel and liquid fuel, which has given the permission to make this investment if an investor comes. give or the gas company itself as an investor should do this. this is an alternative fuel it can be sold. i remember at that time , the government allowed us

to take the fuel difference for gas supply for 3 years . now, with those prices, if we want to calculate at that time , i remember that each branch was up to 10 million tomans, then it was up to 15 million. toman now, with current prices , even if it costs 100 million tomans to invest, with a return of 3 years, the price of two fuels is still justified, unless it is far from 105, i.e., the village, and it becomes more expensive, then we will go. we replace the second one. we insisted on a management for the country's energy

a structure should be created in order to deal with mismanagement in production. we are bringing up, see, we are now saying that we have electricity that is produced non-absorbed , we have almost two-thirds of the energy we waste, so to speak , for production, and this is because the economy of gas has increased there, but if you replace it with electricity. if you produce 15 cents per cent , electricity will be much cheaper there, and if we make one cent

, something that is being done will be done. i am serving you, arab portugal. the saudi province of dubai is not one or two countries. if i had a diagram, i would go here i was showing you, you were wondering why we are here, but when you see , our country is a very special country, we have all the resources, we have the first place in the world in terms of oil and gas, but in electricity, our situation is much better than that . we have places where we can use the sun 300 days a year and that much. the so-called economy that we have in the sun is better than our oil and gas, and it is practical . for example, let me ask mr. montazer tulati . the truth is, when i was in charge, in various meetings, this question was raised for the people as to

whether it is basically the right thing to do if we actually take the gas to people's houses or actually the electricity. let's take it. well, this has been discussed. look, in countries where electricity is used as the main energy in people's homes or as the main energy for heating and actually providing energy, as mr. dan said, their electricity generation model is different. those countries that use electricity from water. they produce from the wind , they produce from nuclear power, yes, there, it is better to use electricity, but in our country, we can use it if we want. we wanted you to see that today, instead of this amount of gas supply, we are now consuming 117 billion cubic meters of gas in our domestic, commercial and small industries, which mainly use heating . we will go with the same technology of the existing heaters with the same existing systems

, anyway, it is about 65% and higher, it is about 65. but the efficiency of our power plants is at best 40%, that is, if we actually have electricity, yes , look at this. this is my comparison. i don't think it is correct to repeat the comparison that we made in the current situation. i mean , we are producing electricity with very low efficiency. you see, now, sir, we can't delay our people for ideas. we , the friends we have now, are actually planning to convey what we know to the country's officials . we have a 25-year-old contract with china, which is capable of renewable technology and has implemented it in practice. i mean, you see, last year, china

built 87,000 megawatts of solar electricity, which is more than the total electricity that iran has. in 2023, in the year 202, in 2023, 120,000 megawatts means this he has the ability, we have a contract with him, if we come to cooperate with china and iran , which i say is practical, we will talk about it once , it is an idea, and we will see if it can be done, it was done two years ago, i remember that i interviewed at the time when this contract was new. they say that people should not wait . no, people, no, no, it won't take long at all. you see, the important thing is not me, mr. fatarim. it is unacceptable. look , we are talking about whether we should supply gas to the people or whether we will set the future of the country's energy based on what kind of raw material it actually is. or what method of adjustment let's do two separate issues. yes, you see

, because our gas consumption in the country is too much, our resources are being limited, new investments have not been made, the structural problems that exist now, for the future, we must certainly parallel the development of gas fields on mats energies. let's invest because those energies are now used by gas energy. let's see for everyone whether we will supply gas to the remaining 45 if the economy works or not. it is a debate but a problem that mr. defar pointed out and the numbers that he said with our tanks . it is not like this that they are decreasing let's think that the 5 percent is taken now, this matter goes back to all gas supplies, that is, with this trend

, we had an increase in production in the future, despite the fact that we had an increase in production, we always had a problem with gas supply in moqatil sardastan, from now on, we will have a decrease in production. the third grade can calculate what will happen in seven, eight, 10 years. no, you don't have electricity , you don't have banks , you don't have internet, you don't have heating, you don't have cooling. we calculated for different years. if i were to show you my graph, you would see very clearly how our imbalance is reaching a point where there is no imbalance at all. it doesn't have gas at all. now, whether i bring this 5 percent or not, what difference does it make, we are all a challenge to you , you see, we don't manage our energy consumption at all

, we don't have any snoopers in the country who come to us now, for example, the ministry of oil, the fuel optimization company the refineries of the oil company have the most energy . deal with the oil company, with the ministry of energy , why are you so energetic, with the rest, with the ministry of mining industry, you know now, mr. engineer, we are now consuming 130 million liters of gasoline a day , turkey has the same population as us, the number of cars is about the same, i am the same, and they are the same. they are consuming 30 million liters, but where is 130 liters ?

it means that we have so much in my management that i said that our first proposal to the country's management structure was that we are important in energy, which is the highest so-called pole of our economy, if we cut off all the gas to the house tomorrow, you know at all. can we have security, have national security , everything is going up in the air, today i have to understand to start working. i mean, if i don't understand today, i don't have time to do anything, i mean, today, i have to know that in 10 years i will be completely off, i don't have anything

at all . how can you manage the country ? god willing , we won't face this challenge, so we should do it. it's not a discussion at all. once you came, i compared one failure with another. we compared the electricity and the price of electricity produced with the system that you currently have in your gas power plant with 80% of energy. you know this. yes, i, as our experts, you are comparing it. it will be more expensive. i am comparing it. it will cost a cent and a half. see, sir , the truth is, what is going on with this discussion that they are raising . gasoline, whether in the forum or in the discussion of power plants , well, i agree with them, that is, we have no , their criticism of you is that your numerical sources are different and wrong, no, no, see

, this is not the case. the problem of our decision-making is to turn our structure to the people . when we get to the point of putting pressure on the people, it means that the discussion will be consumed. yes , our power plants are really wasting gas . be it fuel, gas, or gasoline, one person makes the car , another person manages the power plant. these problems that have brought us here, these 75 billion cubic meters can be easily solved with

new technologies or the same. if they invest this money in a year or 5 years , they can bring the existing power plants to the point where our electricity will end up at 7 cents and 8 cents , like chahar sang . i agree with mr. doftari's argument. we have to try to see that gas alone is not the answer to why it has happened so far. i am saying that so far it has happened correctly depending on the conditions, but what do we want to do from today if we do not go for alternative electricity considering

the technologies that are cheap. it's over, so let's go back and continue our debate. please i do. ali tayebnia, former minister of economic affairs and finance. appropriate distribution of facilities and incomes in the geographical area of ​​cities and villages is one of the examples of justice. we are a country that has the largest oil and gas reservoirs and reserves in the world, and it is not worthy of the people, especially the residents of rural areas and the industries

of our country. be deprived of this divine blessing. gas supply projects to the chiefs are also one of the important proofs of resistance economy. because gas supply to villages, in addition to increasing the welfare of the people of these areas, is also considered to help economic and production units. seyyed hossein margsali, an expert in the field gas supply should not have been done to the entire country's regions, but we had to supply electricity to provide energy. gas consumption in the household sector is four times that of cars. saeed momeni, the former manager of gas supply of the national gas company, gas supply to the rural areas of the country prevents migration to the cities, creates jobs and increases public welfare. in some villages of the country, when the gas supply was done , we faced the return of the immigrants of that village. mustafa kashkoli , an expert in the field of energy, if gas is supplied to all the villages of the country, there will be no gas left for export

, and the reality of the plan. this is now gas supply has been done to all the villages, which was economical, but it should be noted that people do not insist on using gas, but people just want a reliable and stable source to supply their energy needs, an energy society plan should be formulated and the energy portfolio of the country should be diversified, mahmoud asan, advisor to the former oil minister, simultaneously with the increase in the natural gas production capacity, gas supply to the industry of power plants and industrial units with the aim of limiting fuel consumption in them should be increased because the thermal energy of each cubic meter of natural gas is equal to one liter of oil products such as gas oil. is that in addition affordability also reduces environmental pollution. mostafa saeedi, an energy expert , some people are looking for demagogy in the issue of industry and power plants by raising the issue of justice in rural gas supply.