thank you for your company. today is friday, the 9th of may, the 7th of may. at the end of this news section , as the media may know, the noon call to prayer in tehran will be at 12:00 and the maghrib call to prayer will be at 19:50. in this way, we have reached the end of this news series. thank you very much.

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greetings, courtesy and respect, to serve a dear and respected viewer of the higher program with a debate.

we are at your service with the issue of whether the foreign exchange policy of 28,500 tomans for basic goods will continue or not. i invite you to accompany us until the end. you are with the higher plan. here in our studio, mr. tawakli , an economic expert, is present as an opponent of the continuation of the 28,500 tomans stabilization policy, and in our other studio in qom, mr. hassan khani, an economic expert , is present as a supporter of the continuation of the 28,500 tomans wide stabilization policy . we want to talk to each other and see the opinion. pros and cons in this regard, do you know that it's been a few years since we abandoned the 420t width , and it was almost replaced by another width, the 28,500 tomans width, which is the width that is used for basic goods, and for other goods. it is also used, a point that some experts criticized this is a currency gap and believing that this 28050 is acting like 420 and is basically not a good policy on the other side. being an expert who believes

that if this policy does not happen, the price of goods will increase, i would like to start with mr. tavakli and quickly go to the basic and main question of the program, why are you against the continuation of the horizontal policy of 2850 tomans? what is your reason ? i am at your service and all your good colleagues in the broadcast of khabar god network . it has been repeated many times in the islamic republic and my works have been seen. fortunately, in the previous series, which was numbered 400, 200, a nice friend named dr. amir sayah, who was one of your old colleagues, illustrated this and made a film called the documentary 420 depicted all the events that happened in 1996-197. we

are witnessing that after 1401 and the removal of the 400 toman dollar, which happened after a period of 28 to 500 years and was replaced by the same. let's lay a foundation for talking and arguing, so that if we reach an understanding on those principles, we can have further discussions. let's move forward, see the issue is that there are different components in the economy , you definitely can't solve all the problems together, definitely, we all want inflation to go down, for sure, as a citizen, i like the energy rate to be low, i definitely want the dollar to be a thousand tomans. i want all this. i definitely want employment to be at its highest level, but the question that arises in the economy is whether all these can be solved at the same time. the answer is no , clearly now in the world that we had the issue of inflation after the corona story, the economies of the world are involved in inflation. their employment also decreased to some extent

recession, but specifically, the economic rulers, which are mainly the central bank and governments, say that inflation is our number one priority, so we have recession. in fact , we accept the decrease in employment and the rest of its negative aspects, but we must first control the inflation rate, then when it reaches a stability, it reaches the desired numbers, which are considered below two and a half percent, now we will go to the stagnation of employment and solve the rest. in the issue of land rates, i think we should make it clear whether it is important for us to have multiple rates, so that the problem can be solved, that we want to bring benefits to the people and people in this difficult situation help us economically, this is important to us. in fact, the production sector can be active and increase employment and we should not have so much unemployment . we should make this clear . i would like to answer this question first. my body, i think that regarding the exchange rate , priority should be given to a single rate, because all

the next classes that have multiple rates, including rent , including corruption, including, by the way, the decrease in employment, because many people abandon their normal work, go to the dollar page. . and coins and cars are placed like that all of which are the consequences of multiple currency rates. 28 and 500 now, in your opinion, because you compared it with 40t and said that it is acting like that, can you give more examples for the viewers, if you have, it is very clear that now the government is giving 28,500 dollars to some goods, for the discussion of dairy products, for example, in fact animal feed like but we can see what we have in the market, that these prices are almost the same as the free dollar market, and that's enough compared to 5 years ago or 6 years ago, or even global prices , the dollar rate of red meat and white meat. very compare other products and see

that the prices are actually in the market with the same number, for example, 50 tomans and the like are being traded, on the other hand, although the government has a place that is rationed, for example, red meat in mayoudin . it distributes, but the volume is very small, and when you look, some people buy the same ones in the other market, in fact, they sell at a higher price, that 's why when we look at the price index and inflation, let me give a simpler example. when we removed the return supply rate, the inflation index did not change much, the reason was that many of the goods their prices had already stabilized in the market, maybe 3 or 4 of the very special products that have a jump in price, for example, edible oil, until the end, we have a jump. we witnessed them, but the price of other goods did not change much, so i want to say that this does not reach the people effectively. now, if the next question is, what should we do instead , i will definitely ask you about this in the next section, mr. hassan. sir, why do you agree with the policy of stabilizing the policy of 28,500

tomans to continue? what is your reason? dear guest, mr. dr. tawakli, as well as the viewers , i congratulate you on the decade of dignity and the birth of hazrat imam reza (peace be upon him) and hazrat masoumeh ( peace be upon them). good luck and progress, my dear country . let me tell you something about the doctor's orders. look , when we want to talk about economic policies , we have to answer a few questions. how many failed policies have been experienced? and i don't know that some dear friend made a documentary like him

he made a documentary, so all the words that were said in that documentary must be true, and let's leave these aside and face the fact that the result is a preliminary function, even if a policy was implemented 10 times and it was unsuccessfully implemented, maybe that is the reason. the failure of that policy is the way of implementation , because all policies are dependent on the path of implementation, so let's not be too hasty in actually judging the basis we want to start. anyone who proposes any policy should ask four questions answer and criticize his questions, in fact, his answers. what exactly is the problem in removing width 28 and 500, as well as removing four and 200, which we

talked about before, we talked a lot about it, where is the problem, where is this problem, let's discuss the two policies you suggested, the same policy that mr. 500, what exactly is the mechanism to solve that problem, the third question , what are the implications and effects of your proposal and policy fourth , is this policy that you propose the only solution? is it the optimal solution? there is no better solution than this, with negative consequences, worse with positive consequences. mostly, if we agree and talk about these four questions, it seems to me that we will reach an agreement and reach a place where we can actually draw conclusions regarding the continuation or removal of 285. now why do you agree with 28 and 500? . since no one has answered these four questions

, what exactly is the problem of 2850? mr. tavakli, i am at your service . hello, mr. doctor. thank you very much for actually framing the discussion. let's get the answer and this problem is very clear. the point is that we have a property, a parameter we have an economy called the exchange rate, which is currently in the market at the rate of 56,700 tomans. they charge prices , from cars to imported parts to raw materials , there are different companies, they charge prices based on the fact that the dollar has multiple rates and that we have another place in another shop in another part of the market with another rate. we see that what happens is an arbitrage opportunity, because you are an economist yourself, the arbitrage opportunity is completely clear to you, that is, someone buys it from the cheaper market, and in a market where

the arbitrage is an arbitrage opportunity, we have to solve the arbitrage opportunity. let's have a single rate, you are saying that, in order to make supply a single rate, we should either bring the high prices down, or we should raise the low prices. you see, if there is a single rate policy, neither you should lower the prices, nor should you raise the low prices , neither of you should. let everyone work with the same rate in the economy, and that is the market rate, sir. now

you are facing a reality, mr. tavakoli. we cannot ignore this fact yes, i understand, i'm waiting because the voice is delayed, i want your sentence to be concluded, i will answer later, well , now that this fact exists, now that this fact exists, you want to take this policy rate that is in the possession of the central bank towards it. market rate. do you want to bring down the price of koche bazar or the rate of koche bazar? in both cases , tell me the solution of the mechanism to fix this problem. look, mr. doctor, this answer is very clear, if it is simple.

ask a merchant, mr. merchant, do you think that if the offer is freed, it means that we will remove 28 to 500. and if you import cars, or gold, or you import flour, you know what the merchant will answer you, naturally, the merchant is looking for the last

priority to import flour and see it quickly, mr. doctor, well done. and naturally , we should let it do its job, mr. doctor, not only about being a businessman, but also about the central bank, about the banking system, that is, the banking system should also make a profit. for the economy of the bank to make a profit, it means that the bank should take deposits from here and give the profit from the other side as loans give and get the interest, these rates should be equilibrium rates and the bank will make a profit if. if your economy moves in a direction where this businessman, who is a bank, does not make a profit, your economy will surely be doomed to failure . we have the same story about this discussion. let's face it, some goods are not economical. this is the right thing. if the goods are actually necessary for the economy , the government can intervene, but the point is

, should the government come and do this with a preferential rate ? the answer is no, there is another solution because you have your second question. the discussion was that if you don't accept this, what is your solution to solve this problem? fortunately, since 2009, we are among the few countries that have implemented a policy in the country, which was a successful policy, and for your reference in the policy books. iran's experience is being taught, that is, i want to say that we are not behind in all fields, in some fields, we really have valuable experiences for the world, and that is the question of the targeting of subsidies, followed by the payment of cash subsidies. now the government wants to bring benefits to the people instead of this benefit if he comes to give a price in the form of a subsidy, it means that a product whose price is 50,000 tomans or 45,000 tomans comes at a price of 28,500 tomans , sell the dollar at the market price, give the profit he wants to give to the market in the form of a price subsidy, let the people pay for it, fortunately, my system is ready. it means that now

the government has the bank account of all the people to pay the subsidies . the government wants to finally give the benefit to the people with a benefit of 28 tomans, instead of coming, for example, to give money, come and buy the goods for 28 tomans and give it to them. my answer is that despite the fact that mathematically these two ways seem to be the same, but they are not really the same, why are they not, because when you guys give a price and distribute a product in the market for an unlimited amount at the price of 28,500 tomans . there are also those who abuse it , for example, this restaurant on the street needs meat or rice to do its work , and it needs the rest of the goods . in the shop and actually in the menu for the customer, it is not based on that number at all is it based on the price itself, or we had many cases that i think were experienced in the previous government. now i emphasize that you should watch that documentary, not because

i want to promote it, but because it was documented there, this is the story of a person who entered with love. . it means that the government's goal is to provide a subsidized price of sugar to the household, but some parts of it use this because the businessman is looking for profit, he mixes it with water, and in fact , he makes water and sells it and makes a profit. the benefit only comes to that person, pay attention, the benefit went to a special person, this is the discussion that i want to discuss. you put the reason why you agree is that the width of this land allocation policy is 285,000 tomans.

so, your only reason is that if we have a preferential offer, we give it in order to respect justice , that is the only reason. we are giving the preferential rate in order to be able to control inflation, to be able to defend the welfare of the people and the livelihood of the people, mr. bozur nasr, you see, in the economy , there is a difference between rates and prices. there is a big difference . you can change the price of cheese as much as you change the price of cheese in exchange for that , you can

subsidize the reduction in welfare that is created for the consumer, but when you change the currency price or the exchange rate, all the economic relations will be moved according to the land rate , you cannot say that because i am the rate i changed my wish, so i will give cash subsidy to people for 5 times the price of goods. mr. tavakli, i am surprised from you since 2009 that you are teaching the success of iran in those books you say, have you heard the criticism of what happened in rome from 2009 to today? 89, when the subsidy became targeted, the government used to subsidize people for 45 dollars a month. today, how many dollars can it subsidize to people for the price of a refrigerator? in 1995 , it was actually, for example, 5 million tomans. this 5 million tomans was probably equal to a worker's salary for one or two months. today, a worker

can buy a side refrigerator with a few months' salary. you see, the welfare effect of mr. tavakoli has a detailed discussion on the welfare effect of policies in the economy. are you an economist or not, but if you are an economist, please do so please note that cash subsidy means making it more expensive and paying cash subsidy does not necessarily preserve the welfare of the householder in this process, and definitely if you ask my people, even people who have no economic studies, they will confirm that if you raise the price of land, we will be better off. if you give that cash subsidy to the people, the welfare of the people will definitely decrease, not only in that first period but also in in the next periods and in the following periods, they will decrease. mr. hassan khani, i want to ask you one more question. your time in this section is running out. i will get the answer from mr. tawakli.

the preference should continue, and now that you are at 28,500 tomans, how long should we continue with 2,805 tomans? look, i have nothing to do with the rate. you can say, sir, since one year has passed , mr. president, mr. first vice president, mr. governor of the central bank, and as long as there is an economic war and as long as there is an economic embargo in the country, we are bound to have a preferential rate for let's provide people for the basic goods according to the inflation according to the facts , this rate can be moved, but the principle of preferential width , the principle of payment of preferential width cannot be done in our country because the difference in the price elasticity of demand for goods

different things cannot be removed, mr. tawakli. there is a very important point. mr. hassan khani points out that it is the issue of people's livelihood and inflation. they say that if you change these values ​​to 285, how does this forgiveness, which has a serious effect on people's livelihood and inflation, will be compensated. look, i must first state this very clearly that i am a citizen and in the world of citizenship , i want the dollar to become a thousand tomans, why 2800 tomans, let's first make it clear that if we are here , we are arguing that the exchange rate should be a single rate, friends, infer this. they are increasing the exchange rate, which i am completely against i believe that if we have 2 rates now, one from 28 to 500 and a number of rates that will reach 58 thousand tomans, if the dollar becomes a single rate, the equilibrium number of the single rate that will appear in the economy is something between these two numbers, which may be the number may be, for example, 48 thousand tomans or 52 thousand tomans, but that number is definitely not 59 thousand tomans, 60 thousand tomans

, and not 28,500 tomans, this is clear. let's face it, now with these interpretations, if you assume that the government is now delivering goods to the people at a cheaper price with 28 and 500, which i confirm , yes, some of the goods are delivered to the government at a lower price. it is reaching the people, including bread, including energy, including some food products, which have become known as basic goods . can't the government deliver this benefit to the people in another way? i want to emphasize this point that yes, there is a way. it has a number now. that the government can now multiply and divide the number that the government is giving to the people. or the old year of 18 billion dollars is almost a great calculator let's take 18 billion dollars and multiply it by 28 tomans to get, for example, 50 tomans. see how much the number can be divided by 12 months of the year divided by 84 million people. let's see how much each person gets

. let's explain in detail, pay attention , it doesn't make a difference for the government, why doesn't it make a difference, because it is finally paying 28 dollars and the government is spending, for example, 18 billion dollars, now instead of 28 to 500, it should be sold in the market for 50 tomans or 48 tomans in the market. in the one-price market, you can get the benefit without going into the treasury a separate fund, the targeted fund of yarna , should be created and explained to the people , give them cash, what will happen , the other side will surely find prices. after all, the goods that the government has will pay 28 tomans for $28 if it is imported now for 50 tomans. the price will definitely increase, but be sure that the sum of this increase in the consumption basket of the householder will be much less compared to the cash subsidy that the government can give , because the price in the market will decrease at all, because when we make the prices real let's control consumptions, for example, state normally, you may have to use 100 of a product

when the price goes up a little. 95 units itself , this reduction in demand will actually help this . you see, my government has told me about the experience of the past one or two years. i have been asked several times to use non-scientific methods. now i don't want to say a word that, god forbid, will hurt my friends, because this is the national media after all. and everyone hears this, he wanted to help, but he couldn't do it, like this other person who mentioned, for example, the issue of bread , doing a very big job in the bakery network of the whole country, more and more. to the new pose devices this way in fact, i did something, in fact, installing them in different bakeries so that they could prevent smuggling, for example, what kind of smuggling was it, since the bakers would sell the flour to the pastry shops and other places, and then you know, the sweets would be in the hands of people at a free price. they wanted to stop this story , what can they do , they give the poses to namoya that, sir, between here and the card they draw, they say

, we want up to noon, three to noon, four to noon. i don't know if you prepare bread for your home or me sometimes i do this myself so that i can notice the floor of the market. when you want to go to a place to buy bread, then instead of moval bread, your party will give you stone bread or bigger bread. the bread is killing three, what does it mean, it is telling the government that i used 3 units of flour, but nine units of flour were used, and those two units are added up at the end of the month, and it is sold in five sacks at a free price. another example is the sweet shop. the fact that the government wanted to prevent corruption or help and failed to do so is something like rent gold. it has become famous, people must have heard it, but maybe it can be helpful to say it in the national media. it was like the discussion we had because of the multiple rates of the dollar, many exporters are not willing to sell their dollars at the rate that the government says. i said, i

can buy the dollars in the market. i want to sell 50 tomans, why should i come and sell 40 tomans, because i have all the expenses of my company, menggah factory, with dollars, for example, 50 tomans, from labor to raw materials, finally, the governor of the central bank came and passed a resolution and said, "okay, now that you do this." you don't see the dollar, do something, see the gold face me, if someone brings gold into the country from the place of his dollars, i accept that instead of fulfilling the territorial obligation, he should deliver the dollars. the country's gold was increasing, on the other hand , because gold was not subject to pricing, they could sell it in the market, and the gold they sold in the market was practically equivalent to the same dollar, for example, 50 tomans. everyone was happy . after a while, they realized that it was a golden volume it is entering the country, the number is very high.