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and i am honored to be your host this morning. we live in a part of the country that encourages us to live life to the fullest and to explore the pursuit of happiness . among us we have many people who are suffering. and decide to take their own lives because they struggle with life itself . with us this morning is eve meyer, the executive director of san francisco suicide prevention, to help us have a difficult but important conversation about suicide. welcome . >> it is an honor. >> why do people kill themselves? >> people who kill themselves are in pain. they are in intolerable pain of one kind of or another. in the united states we have the luxury that is primarily emotional pain. in other countries it may be economic, it may be physical pain. because the health system has collapsed. it may have to do with shame. in the united

states, we have those forms of pain. we have families that run out of money and call in and say i would rather be dead than homeless . we have people who are in physical pain and decide to end their lives. and we have shame. we have children who are bullied. and who die of shame. but primarily, it is emotional pain. and that is what we have come to have to grapple with and we don't know much about emotional pain. so we have trouble dealing with it. we don't recognize it . >> when you say we have difficulty dealing with it but at the same time, i think pretty much every suicide prevention organization at its core has a list of signs that people need to pay attention to for themselves and loved ones and friends that may lead to suicide. what are some things

people should pay attention to for themselves and also around the people they know. >> what people ought to pay attention to is that there are four kinds of people who are suicidal. the first kind of person says i am thinking of killing myself and they come out and say it . frequently, people don't pay any attention to them and they say, you would not do that. no. don't do that , let's go out . they dismiss it. the second kind of person gets that suicide is a very, very big decision. don't feel capable of making that decision. and they leave it up to the universe. they will throw out a hint. no one will miss me if i am dead. when i am dead, give my animals away. when i do this, i am going to be gone soon. all sorts of hints that they may be dead soon. and the third person does

the same thing. they get it , they want the universe to tell them whether or not to die, but they don't say anything. they act it out . the third person may change how they dress. they may change how they eat and sleep. too much, too little. they may start giving away their belongings or their pets. the third person , again, has something they want to show. in the fourth person takes risks. they know how they want to die but they want the universe to tell them when. so they drive dangerously. they use substances dangerously, they have unprotected sexual encounters and get involved in. violence and their friends say they can see them spiraling down. one out of every five suicides is a person who is hinted for his otherwise

indicated it without saying anything . and as a culture we are very, very squeamish about asking a person if they are thinking of suicide. >> why do you think that is? why are we reticent to come out and ask that question? >> i think it is because we have a myth that if you ask the person, are they suicidal , you will put the idea into their head. they will die and it will be your fault . in fact, there are studies from columbia university and university of texas that show, it is impossible to put that idea into somebody's head. it is either there or it is not. the people who are in pain, you can ask them , are you feeling suicidal? and for them it will be a relief and a gift

that you have recognize this shameful secret they have had. and that you are prepared to help them out and you know what to do to help them out . >> wonderful. we will take a quick break and come back in a moment to continue this vital and important, although difficult conversation about suicide. please join us back here on 'mosaic' in just one moment .

good morning and welcome back to 'mosaic' i am rabbi aaron is weiss. thank you for returning to this important conversation about suicide with eve meyer, the executive director of san francisco suicide prevention. we were talking about the ways people can talk with a loved one who they think might be contemplating suicide and actually say to them, are you thinking of ending your life? are you thinking of killing yourself or committing suicide? what do you say to people who say, if someone is really determined to end their own life there really isn't anything that you can do to convince them otherwise ? >> what we say to people is that, almost everyone is ambivalent. and the

ambivalence ranges on a spectrum from 99% of the person wants to do it but 1% of them does not. to half-and-half, to even less than that. what you are trying to do is hope for the part of the person that thinks that there might be some positive reason to live. and that is the whole thing that the suicide prevention movement is about . somewhere , deep down in almost everyone, there is a reason to live . you just have to find it . and the way that you find it is, curiously enough, to ask the question, how do you plan to kill yourself before you ask anything else? >> why is that important question to ask ? >> because you want to make the person safe . if you go into , while you can yourself, they could die in front of you. the

other reason you want to make them safe is one of the greatest danger factors is a person who has easy access to a way to kill themselves. if you can make the person's environment safer , then you can make a part of them that wants to live grow . more easily. >> it seems really part of what i think you're saying is it is very important to the curious. in that way, in some ways to be unafraid and take a leap of faith and to engage that person and also , in some way see yourself as someone who can cultivate their sense of what it means to be alive and to enjoy life, if i can use that term in the mist of

someone who is considering suicide. is that part of what humanly we need to pay attention to? >> that is exactly what we need to pay attention to. inside of everyone, there is a dream. and if you can find the dream, find the belief, find the one thing that makes them stronger than their own bodies, you can pull them through. as long as you can make your surroundings safe. the first thing to do is to try to find a way to get their surroundings safe and after that you look for the dream. look for the diamond in the landfill, i call it . he tried to find what it is that you can ignite, that will help them get through just this period of time. people are suicidal in the very time-limited manner. >> what are some services that san francisco suicide

prevention provides that help people to cultivate that part of the person that has the dream and also makes their environment safe for them? >> san francisco suicide prevention has 100 volunteers who are community people . they may have been through crises themselves . i hope they have . and they talk on the telephone with anyone calls in , about the crisis. to use the word talk. i think that is the wrong word. they listen. they have been taught to listen exquisitely. they let you talk. it is probably the most talking you have ever been able to do . and the person who finds the diamond in the landfill is actually, you . and we now do this on computer. we do this by online chat. we are about to start text. and we

have noticed that people who are younger don't use phones . so we did that so we could reach a broader spectrum of people and we do it in spanish and we have translators. for about 110 languages. because we know that when you get emotionally upset , the words for how you feel are in your first language . >> yes, of course . you mentioned your volunteers are exquisitely trained to listen. it seems to me if somebody is considering suicide, the isolation can be so deep that it is important to hear a voice on the other end. it seems to me that the curiosity and the engagement and that talking is also important for the person on the other end of the line to know that not the

to just being listened to and heard. and one way we know we have been heard is you have the engagement with the other person, talking. >> you have a person who is engaged in talking but they are also asking questions. up until now whenever the person has said i am in pain, we are culturally programmed to back away from that pain. here is somebody who when you say i am in pain comes forward and says, describe it to me. when does it happen? how does it happen? how does it feel. what makes it better. by the end of the phone call , or the text, you come up with a safety plan where you pick four things you know is a person who is in pain might make you feel better. and you write them down and you keep them with you at all times . and when the

pain hits you again, you start through them. get a cup of coffee, watch a certain television show , call a relative that you like. find an animal. find an animal. i am a strong believer in animals . find an animal and sit and talk to the animal. if none of those work, you call a hotline again . somebody will be there. >> eve, thank you so much. we will take a quick break and return in a moment back here on 'mosaic'.

welcome back to 'mosaic'.

i am rabbi eric weiss and honored to be your host this morning. in the middle of a conversation about suicide with eve meyer, director of san francisco suicide prevention. northern california in particular but many other urban areas are engaged in a very vital conversation about choosing when one ends one's own life and typically that conversation is stimulated by terminal illnesses and choices people make about the quality of their life and the ability to choose when one's life and this. that has spurred lots of organizations that both provide advocacy, education, and assistance. i'm wondering how you think about that particular issue and where we are and what seems to be an almost, stimulation to develop different kinds of vocabulary,

different kinds of concepts to understand choosing to and this one own life and how you one goes about doing that. what do you think about that conversation? >> as a profession, what we think about it is if you are not allowed to talk about suicide when you are in physical pain or when you see a terminal illness about to end your life, then you are a second-class person to the one who is in emotional pain. and that should not happen. you have just as much of a right to talk about your pain , and your thoughts about your life. in states where they have legalized terminal illness suicide , there have been very few of those suicides. the freedom to think about it has meant more than the actual

death itself . >> interesting. >> the way that knowing you can do it , takes away your fear of what will happen. and gives you control over your life. >> does a sense of control create its own prevention? >> it appears to. people who know that they can legally end their lives if they are terminally ill, usually do not do it. >> and this conversation easily impinges on issues around theology, faith, religion. and suicide. can you talk a little bit about that history and that interaction . >> we have always had an interesting relationship with the faith community because at one point so many people were dying that the faith community , in almost every form, jewish

and christian, declared it a sin and would not very people with their families. had shame for the families and shame for the person and they developed a compromise about the 14th-century, which said, if you died under the influence of an irresistible force, you could be buried with your family. and what was that force? it was mental illness . mental illness and suicide became welded to one another. even in situations where they are not in fact, connected. the mental illness , mental health , system , is forced to deal with people who are suicidal, even though they may not be suicidal because they are mentally ill. it is a curious way that we say, if

you are suicidal, you must be mentally ill. that does not necessarily follow . because you can be in some sort of crisis because of something that is happen to you in your life . we have worked out this kind of relationship, but we have not worked out how we are going to comfort people . how we are going to comfort families . because we leave that shame , people do not get to talk nearly as much as they need to. to other people. and that is why if somebody goes through a crisis, they will save another person. >> we will take a break and return in a moment here on, 'mosaic' .

welcome back to mosaic. i am rabbi eric weiss . thank you for returning to this important conversation on suicide with eve meyer, executive director of san francisco suicide prevention. eve, in today's world what are

some of the demographic populations that we need to pay attention to when it comes to understanding suicide more deeply . >> a population we are really worried about right now is older men, particularly veterans . and younger men who are currently in the military. we are finding high suicide rates, higher than expected and having to direct programs towards them. and the theory that is behind with the increased rate is, is that they have access to a lethal weapon. at all times. it is on their bodies. >> do most returning veterans , or aging veterans actually still own firearms ? is that what you're saying ? or have access to them .

>> they either own them because they have taken them with them after they had been in combat, or they are so comfortable around them that they have kept them around. when a crisis happens , the access to the means of ending your life is something that is crucial . it is the difference between it happening and not happening. and when somebody has a gun around, that is a dangerous situation. >> we live in a country now that has a volunteer military. and for the most part, most of the population does not volunteer for the military. but we know so many people around us who have gone to the military and have returned. earlier you were saying how important it is for someone to find the dream in that person for life. i am wondering, do you have particular pointers for somebody who knows somebody or who has been in the military

and may not actually relate to that choice, but nonetheless, cares for that person and nonetheless loves them, but wants to know what they can do in that particular situation? is there a particular way to approach someone who is a veteran or returning person from the military, man or woman? >> i don't think you would approach them any differently from anyone else but you would approach them and say, you are hurting. and i care. i just want to be with you and make sure you are safe . if you have something around, i will keep it for you until the crisis is over. >> in other words, you don't have to have been in the military to approach somebody who has been in the military to talk about suicide. >> no. pain is pain. once you have had it in your life you are someone who can help someone else. each of us. any of us can save the life of another person. >> believe it or not we have just a minute left . do you have any parting thoughts that

you would like to let us know about , as we complete this conversation in this moment ? >> i think my parting thought is that all of us really can care for each other , much more than we have. and i think we will now. i am seeing a wonderful time of people really opening themselves up to other people . wanting to save them and succeeding. >> eve, thank you so much for joining us on 'mosaic'. week put a comment in this conversation. if you know somebody or you are contemplating suicide, pick up the phone and call san francisco suicide prevention hotline or any other suicide prevention organization in your area. please , find a dream. thank you for being with us here on 'mosaic' . have a wonderful day.

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