and the chronicle praises "her ideas to end soft corruption in politics." let's shake up the senate. with democrat katie porter. i'm katie porter and i approve this message. the governor of texas is marshaling his own state's resources to take control of what he calls a failed federal response to the crisis at the border. he's been criticized for playing politics with immigration, but he's doubling down on razor wire, soldiers, and tough new

laws. what gives you the authority to tell the u.s. border patrol what to do? >> this land we're on right now was used by the federal government to further illegal activity. and i want to put a stop to it. there were more than 3,000 book bans in public schools last year. 1,000 more than the year before. we went to one conservative southern town to hear how they're turning the page. >> parents have the right to determine what their children are taught and what they're allowed to read. but when we're having a problem with is parents that want to determine what other parents' rights are for their children to read what they want. elon musk and jeff bezos, two of the richest men in the world, are in a race to help nasa put astronauts back on the moon and then on to mars. >> and liftoff of artemis i. >> it's not science fiction, but

it's also not easy. and that's our story tonight. i'm lesley stahl. >> i'll bill whittaker. >> i'm anderson cooper. >> i'm sharyn alfonsi. >> i'm jon wertheim. >> i'm cecilia vega. >> i'm scott pelley. those stories and more tonight on "60 minutes." kerendia presents... the abcs of ckd a is for awareness, because knowing that your chronic kidney disease in type 2 diabetes could progress to dialysis is important. b is for belief that there may be more you can do. just remember that k is for kidneys and kerendia. for adults living with ckd in type 2 diabetes, kerendia is proven to reduce the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. kerendia is a once-daily tablet that treats ckd differently than type 2 diabetes medications to help slow the progression of kidney damage and reduce the risk of cardiovascular events, such as heart attacks.

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in the presidential campaign, and there's no better example of that than the high-stakes fight between the state of texas and the federal government. three years ago, texas governor greg abbott launched operation lone star, deploying thousands of police and soldiers and miles of barriers to deter record numbers of illegal crossings. the supreme court has repeatedly ruled that immigration is the job of the federal government, but rarely has a state so aggressively challenged that authority. in january, governor abbott ordered his state national guard to block the federal government's border patrol from shelby park, a dusty stretch of border along the rio grande in eagle pass, texas. to understand why, you need to see what happened there in december. we were on the banks of the river before dawn, with soldiers from the texas national guard. we heard the cries of people before we could see their faces. it wasn't until we moved closer

that we realized how many people had just crossed from mexico. the soldiers told them it was dangerous to cross here. help us, they begged. some of the women cried, we have children. >> ahh! >> we heard groans and found this young man twisting in the wire. he kept going. stay calm, they told each other, as families pushed their children through. nearly everyone we saw made it across and into the united states. thousands of people a day crossed here in late december, a record for this section of the texas border. there were so many people, the u.s. border patrol had to transform shelby park into an

open air holding center. weeks later, once the surge died down, governor abbott ordered his texas national guard to block the federal government's border patrol from entering the park without permission. governor abbott argued that the federal government had failed to fulfill its obligation to the states and in that, some heard echos of texas' history of rebellion and threats of secession. >> i can't believe, governor, i'm going to ask you this question, but i'm going to ask you. do you believe that texas has the right to secede? is that what we're talking about here? >> those are false narratives. what texas and the united states have the right to do, and that's to enforce the law. >> you heard the argument against what you're doing out here. each state can't control its own border policy. you're looking at a completely chaotic system. that's the job of the federal government. >> we're not imposing a texas border policy, texas very simply is enforcing the laws that are the policy of the united states congress. >> what gives you the authority

to tell the u.s. border patrol what to do? >> for one, as governor of the state of texas, i have the authority to control ingress and egress to any land in the state of texas. for another, this land we're on right now was used by the federal government to further illegal activity. and i wanted to put a stop to it. >> we went behind the guarded gates of shelby park in january, shortly after governor abbott had taken control. >> this is called an anti-climb barrier. >> reporter: texas department of public safety showed us where state national guardsmen were installing fresh razor wire barriers along the river. >> help me understand at the heart of this why texas has a problem with the border patrol coming in to process migrants in this park? >> the issue is trying to prevent another influx, because when border patrol is here, setting up a processing center, it's going to attract, it's going to encourage more migrants to cross the river, because they know where to go. >> reporter: it's one of many

spots along the texas border where coils of sharp wire have been going up ever since governor abbott launched operation lone star in 2021. since then, thousands of migrants have been arrested and detained on trespassing charges. >> hey, stop! >> reporter: state troopers have cracked down on human smuggling rings. and the state has spent more than $150 million sending migrants on buses to cities like new york and chicago, turning the trouble at the border into a political and financial headache for democratic mayors. once the site of ball games and flea markets, shelby park is now governor abbott's model of what the texas border can be. >> where we are right now, there used to be 3,000 or 4,000 people crossing illegally a day. for the past three days, there's an average of just three people crossing the border illegally. >> you don't just plant a flag just to plant a flag. it's got to be strategic and make sense.

>> reporter: raul ortiz served as chief of the u.s. border patrol under president biden and deputy chief under president trump. he retired last year. >> when agencies are making a decision, based upon politics or whether they're going to get media coverage, hey, we're going to put all of our personnel in this two-mile stretch, what about the other 200 miles. >> reporter: in our interview, criticized governor abbott for not cooperating with the border patrol and playing politics with immigration, but he also expressed frustration with president biden. >> i've never had one conversation with the president or the vice president, for that matter, and so i was the chief of the border patrol. i commanded 21,000 people. that's a problem. >> i just saw 50 people today who had just crossed the border illegally. so, something's not working. >> we need to make sure that central america, south america, mexico, that those regions understand that if you pay a

smuggler and you cross in between the ports of entry and you do not have a legitimate claim to some sort of asylum benefit, you're going to be sent back. >> do you believe that the white house has sent mixed messages to migrants? >> yeah, most definitely. >> reporter: we spoke with ortiz in an area just four miles south of shelby park. the ground was littered with wet clothes that migrants had changed out of and left behind after crossing the river. >> does all of this tell you that people are still crossing this river right here? >> oh, yeah, the guides or the smugglers will bring the migrants over. this is all very calculated by the cartels that control these areas on the mexican side. >> about seven miles north of shelby park, we came upon this group of migrants that just crossed the rio grande and were being picked up by border patrol. this mother and her two sons took buses from el salvador. she told us the soldiers on the u.s. side of the border weren't

much of a deterrent. she feared the cartels in mexico more. sometimes they kidnap you and expect payment, she said. the reality is, people are still going to find way to get in, no matter how much manpower you have and how much wire you put up. >> yeah, because in texas, anyway, we're going to be barricading every area where people are crossing until we get every area to have like this area is right now. >> texas is going to barricade every area. what do you mean? >> every area where the cartels use as a crossing, we intend to be barricading. >> the border will look like a war zone. >> it is a war zone. >> over the past three years, the biden administration has carried out 4 million expulsions and deportation, more than the trump administration. but it has also allowed a record 3 million people to remain in the country for years, while their immigration cases are heard. and the border patrol estimates another 1.6 million people have

entered the people illegally without getting caught. this past week, former president trump visited shelby park with governor abbott. on the same day, president biden was also at the texas border in brownsville. >> instead of playing politics with you, why don't we just get together and get it done? >> reporter: president biden says if republicans were serious about securing the border, they would not have rejected a bipartisan immigration deal in the senate last month, after former president trump opposed it. that deal would have increased funding for the border patrol and required the president to expel all migrants crossing illegally during surges like the one at shelby park in december. the latest battle between texas and washington concerns a new law that governor abbott signed authorizing texas' more than 2,700 law enforcement agencies to arrest migrants for illegally crossing the border. texas judges could then order migrants to return to mexico or serve time, bypassing the federal immigration system

entirely. critics of the law say it is so broadly written, it fails to define when authorities can stop someone. we asked lieutenant orlevares of the department of public safety or dps about the concern that immigrants and people of color could be subjected to racial profiling. >> i can tell you my troopers and i could be stopping cars and checking immigration status, they're not. >> but this law is not just written for dps. >> that's right, it's a texas law. >> the reality is this is going to be carried out far from the border. >> absolutely. >> couldn't you get caught up in it? you're latina? couldn't i get caught up in it. >> that's not the case. >> they have to with develop probable cause to stop a car. you can't go interview every single person in that car, ask them for immigration status. but of course, yeah, there could be some issues where maybe some other agency outside of a border area could take that into account. >> does that make you nervous? >> it's probable, because a lot of agencies here in texas operate, but i would think that every chief at a police agency would have to implement some

type of policy and procedure to actually enforce this new law. >> this past week, a federal judge temporarily stopped the new law from taking effect while it's being challenged in court. the department of justice and the american civil liberties union are suing texas, arguing the law interferes with the federal government's authority over immigration. but governor abbott argues, texas is being invaded and has the right to defend itself. that idea has resonated with militias and groups opposed to illegal immigration. some joined a convoy last month and descended on the eagle pass area. >> every one, i think, agrees that the immigration system right now is completely broken and there's a lot of blame to go around. but do you really, truly believe that invasion is the right word to be using here? >> invasion is the word that's used in the united states constitution. invasion or imminent danger. i use them both. and we are in imminent danger,

because of what the drug cartels do every single day. because of the known and unknown terrorists who cross every single day. >> so the convoys and militia have heard the language and they've started to come to the point that migrants have had to be relocated from some locations for their own safety. are you not concerned about violence happening because of language like the word "invasion"? >> there's no word that would spur violence. but i'll be clear about this. we don't want violence of any type. >> how does this end? >> it ends very simply, and that's with a president of the united states who will actually fulfill his oath of office and enforce the laws of the united states of america, and that means denying illegal entry into our country. >> do you want to be trump's running mate? >> no. >> what if he asks you? >> listen, i love being governor of texas. i can best aid him in my role by being a great governor of texas. >> reporter: so far, the governor has committed more than $11 billion to operation lone

star. over the last three years, the percentage of people entering texas illegally has dropped while rising in other border states. abbott's critics say that has more to do with other factors like crackdowns on immigration in parts of mexico. there is still more than a million illegal border crossings in texas every year. there are also at least a dozen lawsuits being fought over texas and the federal government over immigration issues. all of that worries chief raul ortiz. >> the national guardsmen, even to some degree the border patrol agents have become pawns in this political game between two sides. >> who's winning? >>, the cartels, the criminal organizations, that's who's winning in all of this. they're sitting back and reaping all the benefits, while they watch the state of texas and washington, d.c. go at it. >> patrolling the border with a texas state trooper.

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with election season upon us, the forces of politics are pulling us apart. and among the sharpest battles recently is a campaign to ban certain books from public schools. there were more than 3,000 book bans in schools last year, a thousand more than the year before. that rise is inspired in part by moms for liberty, a florida-based conservative group that says that it is fighting for the survival of america. you might expect a sympathetic ear in buford, south carolina. the county votes republican and is home to many veterans who did fight for america, but when two

people demanded the banning of 97 books, beauford found itself in a battle over the true meaning of liberty. beauford has a history in literature and learning. it's the hometown of the late novel itself prince conrad, and in 1862, it opened among the first schools in the south for former slaves. today, beauford county has 21,000 students, and dick geier is vice chair of the school board. >> it is probably the most diverse district in the united states because we have tremendous wealth in hilton head and other gates communities here, and we have tremendous poverty. half of our students are getting free and reduced lunches, because their parents are qualified as being in poverty. >> geier is a retired army colonel, a republican, who

focused on improving math and reading until 2022. >> what was the very first notion that you had a storm coming? >> we got an email from a citizen, saying that these, the 97 books that we've heard about online, that should be banned in a school, how many of those books do you have in your school? so we checked, we had virtually all of those books in the school. >> they're mostly young adult novels with minority, gay, lesbian, or transgender characters. some depict sex and violence. most were in high school libraries, four were in classroom curricula. reasonable people disagree about books, and that's why beaufort already gave the last word to parents. karen garris is a high school

librarian after 27 years in the navy. >> so the procedure would be that it's a conversation between myself and the parent. and if they don't like the book, they have every right to say that their child can't check that book out. >> and how often does a parent do that? >> i have never had a parent come and complain. >> never? >> to me personally about a book, no. >> reporter: garris also pointed to this opt-out form. "do not allow my child to check out any school library materials without my approval." >> parents have the right to determine what their children are taught and what they're allowed to read. no doubt about it. but what we're having a problem with is parents that want to determine what other parents' rights are for their children to read what they want. >> please be seated. >> reporter: the board wanted to follow established procedures, but a few activists, agitated by conspiracy theories, threatened

librarians and board members, calling them groomers, extreme right-wing hate speech, meant to brand opponents as molesters grooming children for sex. >> we've had a parent come in and tell a librarian that you are violating a state statute by providing pornography to a minor. i'm going to the sheriff -- i'm going to have you arrested. and storm out. now, that's not just happened once, that's happened multiple times at multiple schools. i even got an emil saying the sheriff has said no, the solicitor said no, i'm going to the fbi. >> school superintendent frank rodriguez feared violence, so he pulled the books. >> from someone outside looking in, it's almost obvious, that most of the books hadn't been read prior to being challenged. that some other source was used to gather these things together.

so when that happened, i was like, okay, i knew we were in for a rough road. >> that road began here. a book review website called book looks, founded two years ago by a florida nurse. she declined an interview, but told us her book reviews are written by volunteers, using book look's own standards. and this is where beaufort's experience becomes a national story. across the country, book bans are being demanded based on book look's amateur volunteer reviews, often in the hands of moms for liberty. >> if someone is demonstrably harming our children, we're going to come together to fight to protect them. >> reporter: moms for liberty held a national convention last summer, which attracted major republican presidential candidates. it had been only two and a half years since moms was founded as

a reaction against covid mandates. its founders include two florida women with school board experience, tiffany justice and tina duskovich. >> the truth of the matter is that tina and are disrupting the balance of power in american education. our moms, over 100,000 members, across this united states of america are disrupting the balance of power in public education. for too long, unions have had an undue influence in the decision-making process, happening in our local schools, and we see where that has gotten us. a system that protects itself and oftentimes leaves the needs of students behind. and that has to change. >> moms! >> conservative, anti-teacher unions, moms for liberty is part of the pushback against the diversity and inclusion movement. moms supports new florida laws that limit lessons on race and forbid lessons on sexual orientation and gender identity

through high school. >> we love teachers. my children have had the best teachers. i've had the greatest teachers that have influenced and impacted me, but there are rogue teachers in america's classrooms right now. >> rogue teachers? >> rogue teachers. >> parents send their children to be educated, not indoctrinated into ideology. >> what ideology are they being indoctrinated into? >> let's just say, children in america cannot read. >> they often dodged questions with talking points. >> you're being evasive -- what ideology -- >> 20% -- >> what ideology are the children being indoctrinated into. what is your fear? >> i think parents' fears are realized. they're looking at these books where sexual discussions are happening with their children at younger and younger ages. >> reporter: tiffany justice read from sexually explicit books written for older teens, but found in a few lower schools. most people wouldn't want them

in a lower school, but in a tactic of outrage politics, moms for liberty takes a kernel of truth and concludes these examples are not rare mistakes, but a plot to sexualize children. >> your critics say that you have an anti-gay ideology. >> that is false. that is false. >> nothing could be further from the truth. we have gay members. i think it's an effort to really try to marginalize us as an organization, because parents are coming together, across racial lines or across religious lines, across all of these different ways that we see americans being divided so often. >> i want to thank you -- >> but voters have not come together for moms for liberty. last year, moms endorsed 166 school board candidates, two-thirds were defeated. according to the non-partisan brookings institution. >> moms also faces questions about its third co-founder,

conservative education activist, bridget ziegler. she left moms for liberty, and now she's being asked to resign from the sarasota school board. last year, she told police that she had three-way sex with her husband and a woman. her husband, christian ziegler, had been accused of rape in another incident. investigators concluded that alleged attack was, quote, likely consensual. but christian ziegler was forced out as chair of the florida republican party. we wanted to know about the messages on moms' "x" account, which adopts the extremist smear with, if they don't like being called groomers, they should stop trying to groom our kids. what are you trying to say? >> well, i'm going to say that if -- we would have to see the exact tweet. tiffany manages our twitter account. >> so we read more exact tweets from their account.

this targets a librarian. you want to groom our children and we're supposed to give you love? again, justice and duskovich went to their talking points. >> i'm asking, what do you mean by that? what do you mean by grooming? >> parents want to partner with their children's schools, but we do not co-parent with the government. >> grooming does not seem like a word you want to take on? >> we did some polling and we asked, we really wanted to know, where are the american people on this issue of parental rights and what's happening in our schools? >> dodging questions like that was not an option back in beaufort, south carolina. critics of the book ban said they knew what groomer meant and they saw it a as a threat to people of color and the lgbtq community. >> you don't do that to these kids. they have the internet, they're going to get to it anyways. what are you doing? you're wasting your time.

you're only trying to make people feel bad about themselves and i'm past the time where i'm going to allow anybody to make me feel bad about myself. >> go to the left and around the curve -- >> ultimately, beaufort confronted fear and ignorance with civility and knowledge. the town asked volunteers to actually read the books. in meetings that looked like book clubs, over the course of a year, 146 community volunteers, plus teachers and librarians, discussed, deliberated, and voted. ruth naomi james volunteered to judge the books. she works for the schools and has a 16-year-old student. >> how many of the four books have you reviewed that you felt should not be in the school system? >> none. >> she's not a mom for liberty, but still a liberty-minded mom. >> i'm a combat veteran. there's no way i went to iraq

thinking that when i moved back home, i would have to do this to make sure that the freedom that we fight for in this country is taken out of the hands of students. and parents. >> the final votes came this past december, five books were judged too graphic in sex or violence, but 92 returned to the schools. dick geier says this lesson reaches beyond the classroom. >> diversity breeds tolerance. the more you understand what other people think, and realize that what they say is important, but who they are, what their story, what their background is, the more you know that, the more you see the power of diversity, and then be kind and be understanding and don't make judgments, because you haven't lived their story.

they have. >> in the city that's lived a story of letters and learning, one book that was banned and restored was the fixer. a novel of anti-semitism that won the pulitzer prize. in its pages, the book's hero expresses this opinion. there are no wrong books. what's wrong is the fear of them. if you're living with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis or active psoriatic arthritis, symptoms can sometimes take you out of the moment. now there's skyrizi, so you can show up with clearer skin... ...and show it off. ♪ nothing is everything ♪ with skyrizi, you could take each step with 90% clearer skin. and if you have psoriatic arthritis, skyrizi

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what do i see in peter dixon? i see my husband... the father of our girls. i see a public servant. a man who served under secretary clinton in the state department... where he took on the epidemic of violence against women in the congo. i see a fighter, a tenacious problem-solver... who will go to congress and protect abortion rights and our democracy. because he sees a better future for all of us. i'm peter dixon and i approved this message. democrats agree. conservative republican steve garvey is the wrong choice for the senate. ...our republican opponent here on this stage has voted for donald trump twice. mr. garvey, you voted for him twice... as your own man, what is your decision? garvey is wrong for california. but garvey's surging in the polls. fox news says garvey would be a boost

to republican control of the senate. stop garvey. adam schiff for senate. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message. a small robotic lander built by a private company and carrying a scientific payload for nasa touched down near the south pole of the moon 11 days ago and promptly tipped over on its side. even so, it's the first american spacecraft to land on the moon in more than 50 years. nasa has a much more ambitious lunar program called artemis, which aims to send people back to the moon to establish an outpost at the south pole and to push on from there to mars. we previewed artemis here in 2021, but there are significant questions now about the

program's cost and its timetable. in january, nasa announced its new target for a manned landing, late 2026. a year later than planned. but as we discovered, even that may be unrealistic. >> and liftoff of artemis i. >> when artemis i soared into space in november of 2022, it was the beginning of a nearly flawless mission. in its first test flight, nasa's new space flight rocket sent an empty orion crew capsule on a 1.4 million mile flyby of the moon before a picture-perfect return to earth. >> splashdown. >> the next flight, artemis ii, meant to carry four astronauts on a lunar flyby, was supposed to launch this year, and then a year later, artemis iii would land the first woman and first person of color on the moon.

it's not working out quite that way. >> i think it is safe to say, without significant reductions in costs, better cost controls, better planning, this artemis program on its current trajectory is not sustainable. >> george scott is nasa's acting inspector general. don't be misled by the "acting." he's been a top agency watchdog for more than five years. while nasa's engineers have their heads in the stars, it's his job to bring them back to earth, particularly when it comes to costs. >> right now, we're estimating that per launch, the artemis campaign will cost $4.2 billion per launch. >> per launch? >> per launch. that's an incredible amount of money, per launch. a lot of that hardware just going end to up in the ocean never to be used again. >> the inspector general for nasa says that the costs for the artemis program are simply unsustainable. is he wrong?

>> we didn't necessarily agree with their conclusions. we feel like we've taken an affordable path to do these missions. >> reporter: jim free is nasa's associate administrator and directly in charge of artemis. we met him at historic launch pad 39b, from which both apollo and artemis rockets have flown. >> we believe that the rocket we have is best matched for the mission and frankly, the only one in the world that can take crews to the moon. >> confirmation that the solid rocket boosters have separated. >> reporter: but as george scott said, most components of that sls rocket end up in the ocean. they're not reusable. and with the goal of building an outpost on the moon, artemis will need a lot of those $4.2 billion rockets. >> it's going to take launch after launch after launch to get all of that stuff up there. >> yes. >> so the number of launches is

daunting. but it's hard to get people to the moon. >> when america sent neil armstrong and 11 more astronauts to the moon a half century ago -- >> that's beautiful. >> they got to the lunar surface aboard landers. >> we leave it as we came and god willing, as we shall return. >> owned and operated by nasa. >> you're taking a different approach this time than with apollo. what's the difference this time? >> the difference is we're buying it as a service. we're paying someone to take our crews down and take them up. >> it's been an incredible year. >> that someone is elon musk. in 2021, nasa signed a nearly $3 billion contract with his spacex to use its new starship megarocket as the lunar lander for the first artemis astronauts. >> it is by far the biggest

flying object ever made. >> spacex is preparing for its third starship launch atop its enormous super heavy booster. the first two launches both ended in roughly the same way. >> as you can see, the super heavy booster has just experienced a rapid unscheduled disassembly. >> reporter: rapid unscheduled disassembly is spacex speak for our starship rocket just blew up, again. >> and now, you've seen some of the perils of relying on spacex. >> we've seen some of the challenges they've had on star ship. we need them to launch several times to give us the confidence that we can put our crews on there. >> but right now, as we sit here today, you have no way of getting the astronauts to the surface of the moon, because of these problems that spacex has faced. >> because they haven't hit the technical milestones. >> spacex's stated plan is to

first put its starship lander into low earth orbit. then launch ten more star ship tankers to pump rocket fuel into the lander, in space. >> make sci-fi real. >> reporter: before sending it onward to meet astronauts in lunar orbit. >> and this has never been done before? >> there's been small scale transfers in orbit, but not of this magnitude. >> it just sounds incredibly complicated. >> it is complicated. there's no doubt about that. you just launch ten times kind of on a whim. >> if it's never been done before, chances are it's going to take longer than you think to do it and to do it successfully and prove that technology before we trust putting humans on it. there's a long way to go. >> nasa's contract with spacex requires the company to make an unmanned lunar landing with starship before trying one with astronauts onboard. but nasa still says that the manned mission can happen in two

and a half years. >> that just seems like the time frame we're talking about, the end of 2026 seems ambitious, to say the least. >> what we're doing is a ambitious, but it's a great deal goal to have. >> is that goal realistic? >> i believe it is. i believe it is. >> jim free's optimism is based on spacex's track record with its smaller falcon rocket. >> wow. >> once it get the falcon up and running, it demonstrated it can launch a lot, 96 times last year alone, with both commercial and government payloads, but so far, starship has yet to reach orbit even once. >> does that concern you, that that's going to keep pushing that timeline back further? >> of course, it absolutely concerns me. because we need them to launch multiple times. >> spacex ignored our multiple requests for an interview or comment, but in an interview with the daily wire in january, elon musk said this.

>> we're hoping to have the first humans on the moon in less than five years. >> my view of that is, we have a contract with spacex, that says that they're going to launch our crew in the end of 2026. >> why does it really matter when we get back to the moon? here's why. china has said that it plans to send its tyconauts to the moon by the end of the decade and nasa administrator bill nelson has publicly expressed concern. >> naturally, i don't want china to get to the south pole first, with humans, and then say, this is ours, stay out. >> to ensure that the u.s. will plant its flag first, nasa signed a new $3 billion contract last year with blue origin, the space company owned by

billionaire jeff bezos, to build another the lunar lander, and jim free is crystal clear that he sees it as an option if spacex starships keep blowing up. >> if we have a problem with one, we'll have another one to rely on. if we have a dependency on a particular aspect in spacex or blue origin and it doesn't work out, then we have another lander that can take our crews. >> in this battle of the star-gazing billionaires, bezos' blue origin has far fewer launches than musk's spacex and has been far quieter about its ambitions, until now. >> so what we're looking to do is not only get to the moon and back, but make it reliable and repeatable and low-cost. >> john coloris title at blue origin is senior vice president of lunar permanence, and it says a lot about the company's ambition. >> the landers at blue origins are going to be building are reusable. we'll launch them to lunar orbit and leave them there. and we'll refuel them in orbit,

so that multiple astronauts can use the same vehicle back and forth. >> our cameras were among the first to be allowed inside blue origin's huge complex in florida, just next to kennedy space center. >> so this is where the future is being built. >> that's right. this is the main factory floor for the new glenn rocket. >> new glenn is blue origin's first heavy lift rocket. its maiden launch will be some time this year. >> so you can see over here, we have three different second stages already in build here. >> the first new glenn is already out at blue origin's launch complex. it's designed to carry all sorts of payloads, including the lunar lander being built for nasa. >> so this is the mark 1 lander. we call this our small lander. >> this is the small one? >> yes. >> it's actually a mock-up of their cargo lander in blue origin's florida lobby. john coolores used to work at

spacex and came over to blue to help speed things up. is there a bit of a space race between you and spacex? >> so the country needs competition. we need options. competition brings innovation. >> but you haven't had anything close to the accomplishments that spacex has had at this point, have you? >> spacex have done some amazing things and changed the narrative with access to space and blue origin is looking to do the same. this lander, we're expecting to land on the moon between 12 and 16 months from today. >> 12 and 16 months from today. >> yes. yes. and understand, i'm saying that publicly, but that's what our team is aiming towards. >> that's for the cargo lander. what about humans? >> for humans, we're working with nasa on the artemis v mission. that's planned for 2029.

>> that's not so different from elon musk's forecast of when spacex can land humans back on the moon, even if it doesn't match nasa's. like the starship, blue origin's lander will require in-space refueling. but couluris hopes that it will help trim costs. >> our new vehicle will be a reusable vehicle from its first mission. that lander the for the astronauts is a reusable lander. so now you're not just taking the equipment and throwing it away. you're re-using it for the next mission. >> you do it again and again and again. is that where the cost savings comes in? >> exactly. we are now building with nasa the infrastructure to ensure lunar permanency. >> you have said that the artemis program is the beginning, not the end. tell me, what is the future you see? >> i see us landing on mars. absolutely see us landing on mars.

but we have to work through the moon to get to mars. >> these are magnificent goals, going back to the moon, going to mars, do we have the ability to do what we're dreaming of doing? >> you know, this is nasa, right? this agency is destined to continue to do great things. there's no question about that. what we're telling the agency is, just be more realistic. there's nothing wrong with being optimistic. in fact, it's required. in this business, optimism is required. the question is, can you also be more realistic? >> welcome to cbs sports hq. >> i'm adam zucker in new york with a day in college hoops. with selection sunday two weeks away, the national champs cruise past seton hall to clinch their first title. on the women's side, iowa downed ohio state as caitlin clark reached another historic

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>> announcer: the last minute of "60 minutes" is sponsored by united health care, there for what matters. >> now an update of a story bill whitaker reported six years ago. in theiary 1979, mt. vesuvius erupted, two towns were buried. at one villa, a library's nearly 2,000 scrolls turned into brittle carbonized lumps. the university of kentucky's brent seals has spent years trying to unlock the scroll's secrets. >> the history of the unwrapping of the scrolls is littered with failures. everyone who had tried to open the scrolls had left behind a hideous trail of fragmentary result. >> professor seales hosted a international competition to read the scrolls. now three students using salees data and techniques have

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previously on the equalizer... what do you know that you're not telling us? what are you talking about? robyn: dante got hit with one of those syringes. dante (slurring): robyn has such a great smile. doesn't she have a great smile, harry? harry: yeah, she does. hey, what else was in that stuff? a very powerful truth serum. harry: breathe. breathe. come on. (gasps) oh, god. oh, god. you okay? yeah, never better. (saxophone playing) (loud chatter)