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nation." last week the house passed a bill requiring tiktok to divest from its chinese owner or face removal from the u.s. app stores. joining us now are the leaders of the house select committee on the chinese communist party, republican mike gallagher and democrat raja krishnamoorthi. good morning to you both. >> good morning. >> thanks for having us. >> congressman krishnamoorthi, i want to go to you as the lead democrat here. president biden said he would sign this bill if it makes it to his desk. have you gotten any indication from leader schumer that senate will take this up or whether this legislation will die in the senate? >> well, we've got an indication that leader is going to take it up in his process and we respect his process. mike and i have had conversations with different members of the senate. we're very interested in this bill and are very surprised by

the size or the margin of the overwhelming bipartisan support in the house and as you know, the white house has asked the senate to take up this bill quickly. >> but as you know, president biden has his campaign on tiktok. do you agree with senator warner it looks like he's basicall speaking out of both sides of his mouth on this one? is it unhelpful? >> no. i'm not going to tell the president how to campaign. i don't have it on my personal phone and it's, of course, ban from all of our government devices. i would just say that it's legal now, but i would ask everyone to exercise caution with regard to the app because of the various risks that we've outlined as part of this bill. >> congressman gallagher, on the risks, we are eight months out from the presidential election, and in the u.s. intelligence assessment that was made public on monday, it specifically mentioned that the chinese government propaganda arm used

tiktok to target candidates from both political parties in those midterm elections in 2022. so we can only assume this is going to be happening in 2024 as well. do you actually believe a for sale will happen before november? >> it absolutely could. i would be in the financial interest of bytedance's investors to effectuate a for sale. the user experience on the app would improve and you wouldn't have this concern over being propagandaized. the opaque algorithm influencing what information you see, that would go away. i imagine it would actually increase in value. i think all the more reason we have to tackle this now. the closer we get to an election, the risk gets greater and greater. you mentioned that unclassified dni report. every single intelligence community official that testified before the intelligence committee last week suggested under its current ownership structure tiktok is a

threat to national security which is why we are trying to force tiktok to separate from bytedance and by extension from the chinese communist party. >> we have been hearing this is a national security threat and something needs to be done, and it dies in congress or in the court. if this version becomes law, how does this actually -- how do you stop it is this because this app is already on 170 million phones. can you claw it back? >> if a divestiture happens and the sale happens you wouldn't need to. people can use the app and post weird dance videos and campaign on the app. the forcing function in the bill is if they do not pursue a sale, then they would no longer have access to the app store so you couldn't do new downloads. the website would be affected and affect the functionality of the app.

the outcome we want is a forced separation and we think that's the healthiest for all parties involved and just given the reporting we have and tiktok's own behavior in the last month, look at the pop-up notification they forced on millions of thooursz resulted in kids calling with school bells in the background saying if you don't rescind this bill i'm going to kill myself. that's just a taste of how this app could be weaponized. imagine a more consequential vote going forward about authorizing force to defend taiwan or permanent normal trade relation status with china. that's the risk we're trying to guard against. >> is it really just tiktok? i mean there are no guardrails virtually in place for any kind of social media that those kids or us adults have access to, congressman krishnamoorthi. >> i agree and mike and i would love to work with others with regard to putting guardrails in place with regard to other apps. regardless of their ownership.

this one is different in the sense that we have a foreign adversary controlling this app. just to give your viewers a sense of it, essentially bytedance is the 100% owner of tiktok. bytedance basically has its editor in chief who is also the secretary of the chinese communist party embedded at the highest echelons of the company to control all of its products. he has been tasked with, quote, making sure all of its products, including tiktok, adhere to correct political direction. so this is a different type of threat than we've seen before. this divestment is not without precedent. there was an app called grinder, a popular lbgtq app that was acquired by a cleese company and when the u.s. government found the ccp had access to sensitive data about lbgtq members of the military and u.s. government officials, it required the divestment. it happened very quickly.

why? because the app is very -- was very valuable. of like tiktok. there was no disruption to users. that's what will happen with regard to this divestment as well. >> congressman gallagher, mike pence was here saying how disappointed he was that donald trump has changed his views on tiktok. this week he was on "cbs evening news" and said that, you know, oh, well it will just benefit facebook if you crack down on tiktok. doesn't that just incentivize the slow rolling of any legislation until after november? you know, the lobbyists can grab right on to that. >> there is an unprecedented lobbying campaign. they're weaponizing the swamp against legislative action over half a million dollars spent last quarter alone on seven different lobbying firms. it's disgusting. former members of congress lobbying on behalf of tiktok. that should be illegal. members should not be allowed to lobby in general let alone on

behalf of foreign adversaries side note. the fact that we got a vote, really a huge vote in the house, bipartisan, 352, makes it impossible to ignore. that's a testament to raja's leadership, the fact that we're able to come together at a time when the parties don't trust each other on anything, far better for congress to step up and legislate a solution so we're to the bouncing back and forth between different presidents and executive orders. that's a recipe for chaos. >> to be fair here -- >> can i jump in. >> i want to say tiktok as you insists it's not under the control of the chinese communist party. >> that is completely false and that is exactly why tiktok is in trouble on capitol hill. their ceo has appeared on capitol hill repeatedly and made various misrepresentations, margaret, that have caused members on both sides to really scratch their heads and vote for this bill. i'll point out two briefly.

one is that he claimed that bytedance china based employees never had access to american user data and that was proven to be false. they repeatedly access it even unbeknownst to tiktok usa employees and the second misrepresentation is he said this data, american user data, was never used against americans. that was proven false. the company admitted they spied on journalists who were covering tiktok and they used their geolocation data to surveil them. this is why there is such hot water on capitol hill. >> all right. congressmen, thank you for joining us in this rare bipartisan action very quickly on tiktok. we'll be following what happens next. thank you. >> and we'll be right back. discover a different first treatment. immunotherapies work with your immune system to attack cancer. but opdivo plus yervoy is the first combination of 2 immunotherapies for adults

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author of "burn book" and joins us from ann arbor, michigan. good to have you back on the program. >> thanks, margaret. >> we heard from two of the congressmen pushing this legislation right now. but notably, of a key republican senator josh hawley, who supports the bill, said the senate will nickel and dime it death by a thousand cuts nothing that big tech doesn't want moves across the senate floor. do you think he's right? why would this be different than any time in the past? >> well, i think, you know, there's a lot of lobbying going on and senate is slower and there's some issues in the bill ta probably they're going to want to correct and, you know, slow rolling is the best way to have this not pass. it is unprecedented it moved so quickly in the house although it's been a long time coming. donald trump had the executive order around tiktok, and its service and so this has been brewing for a long time.

it's just that it will take a lot longer in the senate to do it and opponents like rand paul and others and chuck schumer hasn't been particularly supportive or nonsupportive of it. so it will just take longer. that's in the favor of tiktok. >> and i know you've said in the past on this program, you use tiktok but only on a burner phone. in other words, you don't trust -- >> yeah. >> that you could carry it on a phone with you into private spaces and not be spied on? >> look, margaret, i don't trust any of them, but particularly don't trust a chinese owned company. i had it on a burner phone and wrote a column in "the new york times" about four or five years ago. i think it's an exciting app, broadcast network. it's entertainment. and does it well. i feel like every chinese company i've covered has had the tentacles of the chinese communist party involved in it, whether they like it or not. in the case of some of them they don't like it. but that's the case. now that's not to be said there's not issues with every single u.s. based company, meta

and alphabet. but this is a different step level as far as i'm concerned. these are -- this is a foreign adversary and it's different. china -- a chinese owned company would not be able to own cbs and this is a media company and that's the question, are we going to allow a media company from china to have so much purview around the united states? we are not allowed to be in china. our companies are not allowed to be there, so there's not reciprocity because they would be worried about the exact same things we should be worried about propaganda, surveillance, anything else. i get the first amendment arguments and everything else, but tiktok is not going away, kids. this is the thing that sort of -- that tiktok is using a little bit that i think is disingenuous. it's not going away. someone is going to buy it or they will be allowed to continue to operate with guardrails which is happening now with project texas. i won't go into details but there's got to be some way to

monitor this particular service more than the others. at the same time we should have privacy and antitrust bills, algorithmic bills which congress has not acted on in two decades. >> exactly. there aren't guardrails period. tiktok is valued at approximately $100 billion according to wedbush securities, but just $40 billion without the source code. who would buy this? >> oh, a lot of companies. you could see microsoft picking it up. maybe apple. there's a whole bunch of consortiums. steven mnuchin has one, bobby cotick who sold activision to microsoft. i think the question is, and i had an interesting discussion with mark cuban about this recently, what do you buy precisely? the algorithm is not coming with this company. the chinese government would never let that happen. because the algorithm will actually if you could reverse engineer it prove possibly that there is problems with it or anything else.

i don't know if there is. i know should there be allowed to have the opportunity. and what are you buying? you're buying 170 say u.s. users and a great brand and the algorithm isn't there and one of the magic of tiktok is the algorithm. the history that you have there. >> the thing that targets you. this past week, elon musk, who you cover in depth, posted this bill is about censorship and government control and far too broad. there have been concerns about foreign investors in x and twitter. what do you make of this argument from him? >> well, this is the guy who just fired someone for doing an interview. i don't know. i don't believe anything about what he says. you know, you could make that argument, but why is it if it's owned by a u.s. entity? it will be able to do whatever you want. and again, twitter is chock full of foreign investrs and everything else. i don't know. i don't really take that into

account much. he just likes to say free speech a lot and does the exact opposite. i don't know what else to say. >> you're referring to an interview that don lemon did with elon musk? >> yes. i'm sorry. i'm not being specific. it's constant like that. talks about free speech and then freezes out journalists and stuff like that. anyone that goes on and on about free speech, really, you have to really look more carefully about what they actually do than what they say. in any case, you know, that's the argument from that side. that is that argument. >> i raise him because mark warner, the chair of the intelligence committee, said there's not a single person more beholden to the communist chinese party than elon musk because of his own businesses, and yet, he owns this -- >> i would agree. i would agree. i don't know. you have to consider the source. that's how i would put it. i always consider the source, margaret. in this case really consider the source. >> and you know this business

and this industry so well. kara swisher, thank you for your insight. we'll be back in a moment.

according to unicef, 81% of households in gaza don't have enough access to clean water, and nine in ten people do not have enough food to survive. the organization's executive director is catherine russell here with us. welcome to "face the nation." >> thank you very much. >> you focus in particular on the children. we heard this week from the leaders of the u.s. intelligence community that there will be a generational impact from what is happening in gaza. the implications of that they were looking through the national security lens. from your perspective, what does that mean? what is a generational impact mean? >> it means that what's happening now is more than 13,000 children already have been killed, which is an astronomical, horrifying number. thousands more have been injured or we can't even determine where they are. they may be stuck under rubble. thousands more have lost one or both parents. some of these children you've seen them on the news they're by

themselves managing their younger siblings. it's a horrifying situation. when you think about the impact of that on those children as they grow up, even on their children, right, it is an impact that is so profound because of the stress they're living under and the grief and the loss and the fear that they're living under, it's bound to have impacts on them the rest of their lives. >> since october 7th, 33 israeli children have been killed in those horrific attacks of that day. as you said 13,000 in gaza that you know of. that's just horrific for the youngest. >> the children who were killed in israel, the children who were taken hostage. there are still children who have not been returned to their families in israel. all horrific, right. every one of those cases is so heartbreaking for that child and that family. i think these numbers that we're seeing out of gaza are just

staggering. i mean we haven't seen that rate of death among children in almost any other conflict in the world. it's really shocking. >> so your organization says 31% of children, one in three, under the age of 2, in northern gaza suffer from acute malnutrition. this isn't just trauma. this is stunting them for life. >> yeah. if they survive. i have to say, i've seen a lot of children unfortunately in my job around the world who suffer from malnutrition and it is a shocking thing to see. essentially the body starts to consume itself because it has nothing else and it's a painful, painful death for children. i've been in wards of children suffering severe malnutrition the whole ward is quiet because the children, baby, don't even have the energy to cry. it is a devastating thing to see. if it they survive and we can manage to get what we do is

provide therapeutic feeding for them if we can get that to them they can survive. often they're stunted for life. stunting means your ability, cognitive ability is impacted as well. it is a lifelong challenge if they vive. we know children are dying from malnutrition. >> the cia director testified about children starving in gaza. what are you able to actually get in at this point? we know there are air drops happening. you can't air drop vaccines. you can't air drop things that need to be refrigerated. what's getting in and what do you need to get in. >> first of all one thing we know for sure not enough is getting in. the air drops are -- some things are coming in that way and some came through the maritime corridor. it's a drop in the bucket in both cases. what we need to get in for children is the therapeutic feeding something called plumping -- i don't know if you've seen it. it can save their lives. but we need to get it to them

and we have so little access right now. it's very challenging. we also are facing very great bureaucratic challenges moving trucks in. trucks and moving things by land is by far the most efficient, effective way to get aid in. there are a lot of challenges to that where we can't, you know -- i think senator van hollen mentioned if things are dual used sometimes they get rejected. we can't get plastic pipes in, some medical kits if they have scissors in them. it's completely almost -- to figure out how to get things in through this bureaucratic mess. at the end of the day those are choices that are made. if the choice is -- >> those are political choices. >> they are choices. if the choice is to say we need to get as much humanitarian aid flooded into this area as possible, everyone can do better in that regard. i think that population there is suffering in such a terrible way and i think one of the big challenges is, because there's such limited access for the

press, in addition, it's hard to see that. it would be great if there was more transparency, if everyone could see what challenges are and legitimate bottlenecks are and how we can do better. >> we rely on our producer who lives in gaza, but we cannot get in. >> you should be able to get in and see what's happening. the world should see what's happening and make their own judgments about what's going on. >> the israeli government has not permitted that to date. the ongoing crisis in haiti, i need to ask you about that. this is so close to u.s. shores. americans are watching it now. what is happening there? i read two-thirds of children need aid? >> haiti is a horrific situation. i was there several months ago. there was so much violence even then and there were gangs controlling parts of the capital. now they've basically taken over the capital, taken over the airport. what that means for people is that we can't get aid in, again, it's very difficult for us to do that.

many, many people there are suffering from serious hunger and malnutrition and we're not able to get enough aid to them. it's almost like a scene out of "mad max." that's what it seems like. gangs, vigilantes responding to the gangs. somehow we need to get more control over that situation so that we can get the humanitarian response in and so that this population that has suffered one thing after another over the years, earthquakes, cholera, covid, i mean it's one thing after another for haiti, and i think right now, it's the worst that anyone has seen in decades. >> that's saying a lot. >> that's saying a lot. >> catherine russell, thank you for sharing your insights. we'll be right back.

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that's it for us today. thank you all for watching. until next week. for "face the nation," i'm margaret brennan.

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