good morning, and welcome to mosaic. it is always a pleasure to host mosaic. i want to thank elizabeth and the staff for giving such a

wonderful tribute to our longtime host as well as reducer for 30 years. i met them back in the early '70s, he was at the high street presbyterian church and i was at elmhurst united methodist and we were involved in the east oakland clergy, and the president was dr. alfred smith and he got us involved in the city council, the school board and the emphasis on social justice began then and then use ended up in el cerrito for about 13 years and i was in richmond and we continued our ministries together. about 17 years ago he asked me to host here and so i have been mentored along with elizabeth and we want to thank gail,

his wife, for the wonderful celebration of his life that we had about five weeks ago. blessings, to you, gayle, and your family. you have been all over the world with you, many trips to pakistan, i have always admired that and appreciate that. one of the persons he admired deeply in his ministry was howard thurman, the great, spiritual , religious giant among us. he always said make sure, allow time for this guest. great to have you, dorsey. >> always appreciate the opportunity to come to mosaic. >> you have been there for how many years? >> 25 years, plus. i was not

installed until 1984. the actual celebration of 25 years will be next year. and we will have a major conference, expanding it, hopefully to about two or three days. trying to look at where we are now and we have to create something new, a world that works for more people . that will be the focus of next year. three days, hopefully. >> the church for the fellowship of all people is where? >> san francisco, larkin street between broadway and vallejo. it was the nation's first intentionally interracial, interfaith church. it was started in 1934 by dr. thurman and dr. fiske, who

believed that if people came together and had deep religious experiences, that the would have a sense of community among them and it would break barriers. we have been going on for 74 years, next year will be 75. >> you talk about different backgrounds, races, creeds. >> yes. we have jewish folks, buddhists, communists, people who had no religious background but they have found this and dr. thurman attracted many of them. a lot of people have said, this is what this church is about, then i want to be part of it. it is probably his most powerful and most

recognized book. it was very influential . dr. king, samuel proctor , many other people . >> and the meeting with gandhi had tremendous influence . and at that time it was through the book that nonviolence went through its greatest exposition. >> we will hear more on that. we want to know why does howard thurman matter on this day. please join us as we talk

further about howard thurman, and his spirituality and impact on all of us. thank you for being with us.

welcome back. we have been talking to reverend dorsey blake about howard thurman. and i asked before the break, what is howard thurman matter?

>> howard thurman believes in the search for common ground. he spent his whole lifetime for wanting, he said, for me to be me and you to be you. and if i go deep inside of myself i will come inside of you. he believed we were related, spiritually related. what hurt you, hurt me. and he was always on what he called set to find in you the spirituality that i find in myself. he is important, especially today, because he and other churches in other places put together a model for people to come together and believed that when we are

stripped to the literal substance of ourselves, we stand before god, male, female, black or white, there is a soul that is there and that is not negating our social identities but it is a way of saying that there is something within each person that longs for, the hunger of the heart, longs for connection, not only with ourselves but what he calls the over baiting surface >> that is wonderful how you speak about him. >> he matters because his spirituality helped me to find my own spirituality. and to be

comfortable in my search for my own spirituality. i grew up baptist, i have no problem with that at all, but as a young person, i cannot be, i guess, confined, to scriptures and i down truth in poetry and found truth elsewhere and i always wondered, does this violate my baptist upbringing . and dr. thurman told me that it was okay. he said that what is true in religion is true because it is true, it is not true because it is in that religion. that allowed me to explore the truth within nature. that is one of his foundations. he loved his oak tree in his

backyard, he loved the ocean. it was this kind of freeing of the human spirit to search for truth wherever you may find it and accepted as true. >> that is really good. i mentioned him recently and she said she could see that she wanted to spend three days the first day seeing her friends, the second day seeing nature and the third day seeing new york city. >> she was also an extraordinary person. quite extraordinary. >> again, you have mentioned gandhi. gandhi's influence on him and the way he talked about nonviolence and the disinherited. what do you do when you have your back against the wall.

>> he said he could not find very many sermons that had been preached about the person with her back against the wall. and look at today, so many people with their backs against the wall. who are constantly crushed . so his quest was, how do you live in that kind of situation and maintain your own integrity? one of the things when you talk about the spirituals, the question is, how have you lived your life and acknowledgment of your truth? how do you carve out and negotiate life and maintain integrity and no present situation. and he said jesus

did it. jesus made certain decisions about how he was going to live his life. we all have to do that. oppressed people are afraid . they don't know what society is going to do to them. and it keeps them incarcerated. people survived by trying to deceive or wear a mask or be hypocritical. and his thought was, if you do that, even though there could be some justification for it and you are trying to negotiate with people in power, the more you deceive, the more likely it is that you will become a deception yourself. >> amen to that. >> and he talks about hatred. when you you let that take

over you, the hatred destroys all of your creativity. because your whole living and thoughts go toward the hated object or hated person rather than taking control of your own life, moving forward. and that is needed today to, we can do a lot of reaction to what is going on but how do we take control of our own lives and create the kind of world that there needs to be? we can do it but there has to be discipline, we have to make choices, we have to face the consequences of those choices, but we can do it . one of the most radical things, if you read that, at the very end he says, jesus did it. he talks about the religion of jesus and the humanity of jesus. and because jesus was a human being who made these decisions and became an extraordinary person

that we still talk about, all of us can do it . he took away all of our excuses. >> i love that. i hate to stop it right there. we have to go to a break. but that is really a great understanding of dr. thurman and to jesus. please come back in here more in our next segment with reverend dr. dorsey blake.

if you didn't know who howard thurman was, you get an idea because of dorsey's intimacy with him, knowing him all of these years and pastoring this church for nearly 25 years now. but you

had a complication some time ago. tell us about that. >> every year we have a howard thurman congregation in conjunction with the church anniversary. we had a two extraordinary panelists and we talked about racism, immigration and collective immigration . we do it not only to introduce thurman's life and work, but do it to say, let's move forward. but howard thurman was born in florida in 1899. he loved the ocean, he loved the darkness of the sky . in 1936 he became copastor of the fellowship church and in 1953 he became

the first black person , african-american person to be deemed in a predominantly white seminary. he was there for 12 years and also was able to expand. he did so many things, liturgical dance, drama, he always wanted the service to surprise people. because it is part of being awakened. >> some of my mentors were there. they always talk about that, the first ministry i worked with, he always talks about that time. he said it was so special and precious. >> is every year, the third sunday in october. >> why do you think he influenced dr. martin luther king jr. and so many people, why did he help? >> if you read dr. thurman

and you read dr. king, you will see the influence. in many ways king was the person who applied the legend of what dr. thurman talks about in terms of social reality. many people you mentioned were people that were committed to social action. and king carried with him all the time a copy of jesus and the disinherited. they saw in these writings mack away was to see his own spin on it in a way forward. all kinds of separation. and then, for king in particular, the families knew each other. misses thurman a new martin luther king's mother because

they are both daughters of baptist ministries , so they knew each other. one of the things that is very interesting , when dr. thurman was at boston university, king was also there finishing his doctorate. and he went over to the thurman's to watch the series because they knew each other. it was at that point when he was talking to dr. thurman and misses thurman asked martin luther king about coming to san francisco to be pastor of fellowship church. my question is, what if? what if he had come to san francisco? because, that is when she learned that he just decided to go to montgomery. what if he had come to san francisco instead, with there have been that movement and

become the leader that he was? and you look on the surface, it was a better place to be. caretta wasn't opera singer. >> he was offered so many positions. i want to come back, if people were trying to read thurman, i want to recommend some of the books. let's also talk about his role. let's not forget that . please come back for our last segment as we learn more about howard thurman.

we've been with reverend dr. dorsey blake and he has really shared with us about howard thurman. i asked about some of the books. so tell us about the books, first >> i think the most critical book to read is about jesus and the disinherited. he has quite a few books and for people who are really

interested on racial issues and the racial divide and how it came to be, it was a fabulous book and many people don't know of that book. dr. thurman's own choice of favorite book was the end of journey. i asked him. and to get a better understanding was his autobiography. there are so many books he wrote that speak so deeply. the other is the mood of christmas. >> i was going to mentioned that. i love that. >> it was a beautiful portrait. >> a new one just came out. the parables of jesus. and his sermons. i just picked it up this morning. >> after you told me, i went

and they are going to order copies. at my installation service in 1984, it was a very difficult time during my life because i lost a position and what happened was in my installation service, misses thurman presented me with dr. thurman's robe. and right before she said, this has not been worn since howard's death. this was in 1984. he died in 1981. she placed it on me and i was just wiped out, i could not speak. i couldn't. i just stood there. finally morris and lolita came up . they

helped me. the third sunday in january, martin luther king sunday. we had the smithsonian institution, african-american museum, and i will be presenting to him that howard thurman robe. i have had it the whole time. only one other person has worn it. that was make coal minister. but it has been there and i thought it might be an inspiration. i was contacted by them about a photo of dr. thurman. i said, well, what about his rope? so i will be representing the rope. we also have the robe of dr. fisk, the founder. so we will be giving both . >> that is wonderful. we have just one minute. we can't go without mentioning the

psalms, why did he love that so much? >> it is so intimate. thou know my downsizing and appraising, it is that kind of walk of the walk, and he talks about the light and darkness. the light and the darkness are both alike. so for him he is dealing with, we don't have these dichotomies. and he is saying, no, even with the darkness and the light , the unity is there. >> you have to come back . and you have over the years. thank you. praise god. continue the tremendous work that you are doing. we are learning from it. i hope you will continue with us next month. i am ron

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