margaret brennan in washington and this week on "face the nation," america's relations with israel face a serious stress test amid acquisitions that they likely violated international law in

its war with hamas. israel has issued additional vacci evacuation orders for the refugees from the north now living in southern gaza. hundreds of thousands have fled the region in the last week as israeli defense forces step up their ground campaign against hamas in the city of rafah. plus, the strain between america and one ofity closest allies intensifies. as president biden takes drastic measures to head off a full blown israeli invasion of rafah. prime minister netanyahu said if they have to, israel will go alone. we'll talk to antony blinken and two key senators, tom cotton and maryland's chris van hollen. finally saving a mother. a story about howa group of special operations veterans helped a fellow serviceman's family get their mother out of

war-torn gaza. it is all ahead on "face the nation." ♪ good morning and welcome to "face the nation." we are learning more about the dire humanitarian situation in gaza as thousands are fleeing what was once a safe zone. the southern city of rafah. the challenges facing the biden administration from a diplomatic standpoint continue to grow, too. although the u.s. supports israel's right to retaliation against hamas for the brutal october 7th attack that killed more than 1200 people, there are deep concerns about the palestinian death toll as prime minister netanyahu concedes that his forces have, in fact, killed more civilians than members of hamas. we begin this morning with sect of state antony blinken who joins us from the state

department. good morning, mr. secretary. i know military experts say gaza is as complicated and challenging a battlefield as any modern warfare has seen. but back in december, president biden said israel conducted indiscriminate bombing, in february he said israel's offensive was over the top and then this past week he was asked on cnn about pausing the delivery of 3500 bombs. here is what he said. >> civilians have been killed in gaza as a result of the bombs and the other ways in which they go after population centers. i made it clear if they go into rafah, i'm not going to supply the weapons that have been used historically to deal with rafah. to deal with the problem. >> mr. secretary, is israel living up tonight humanitarian law standards? >> well first, margaret, good morning. the report that we put out lays out some of the concerns that

we've had throughout this period when it comes to humanitarian assistance, particularly the early months after october 7th and when it comes to the use of weapons concerns about incidents where given the totality of the damage that has been done to children, women, men, it is reasonable to assess that in certain instances israel acted in ways that are not consistent with international humanitarian law. it is also critical to note that israel itself has accountability processes to get at this. there are hundreds of ongoing inquiries looking at different incidents that have taken place since october 7th. there are criminal investigations going forward. israel has the ability, the mean, and the actions to self-creck. but we've on this every single day. >> so you have been able then to conclude that israel has

violated us laws and weapon sharing agreements. >> no, we've concluded, in the case of the use of weapons, as you said, this is an extraordinarily complex military environment in which you have an enemy, hamas, that committed the most atrocious terrorist attacks on israel on october 7th and then retreated to gaza, hides behind and underneath civilians and hospitals, schools, mosques, apartment buildings, and that makes it very difficult to determine particularly in the midst of war exactly what happened and to draw any final conclusions from any one incident. so we have a number of incidents that we continue to look at to try to get the best possible assessment. the israelis are going to do the same thing. our assessments are ob going. but given the totality in terms of civilian suffers and women, children and men caught in the cross fire from hamas's making,

it is reasonable to assess israel has not acted in connection with humanitarian law. >> but you're still collecting evidence. >> that is right. >> on the policy, you could clarify. because even the lead democrat on house armed services said, it is not clear. is the u.s. slowing down the delivery of any weapons to israel at this point beyond the 3500 so-called dumb bombs? >> as you know, margaret, most of the population from gaza displaced from the north and from central gaza has gone to rafah. there are about 1.4 million people there and we said to israel we will not support a operation in rafah, in the absence of a credible plan to protect civilians. >> and they still haven't delivered it. >> we have not seen that plan. >> so have you slowed the delivery of any weapons beyond the 3500 bombs? are you pausing for example, precision munitions as some republicans have -- >> the answer to that is no. what the president said and what

he's been clear about in private conversations with the israelis which unfortunately leaked to the press, so the president answered when he was asked about it. but what we've been clear about it, if israel launched this operation in rafah, there are certain systems that we're not going to be supporting and supplying for that operation. but at present, the only thing that we've delayed are the high pay load bombs because we're in an ongoing conversation with israel begin the impact those weapons could have when used in densely populated areas including an area like rafah. >> so you're in -- >> we're in an active conversation about that. we have real concerns about the way they're used. but here is something else that is critically important, margaret. we believe two things. one, you have two of -- you have to have a clear credible plan and we need to see a plan for

what happens after this conflict in gaza is over and we still haven't seen that. because what are we seeing right now? we're seeing parts of gaza that israel has cleared of hamas. where hamas is coming back. including in the north. including in khan yunis. rafah may have some initial success but potentially at a incredibly high cost to civilians. but one that is not durable and sustainable and they will be left holding the bag on an enduring insurgency or if they leave and get out of gaza as we believe they need to do, then you're going to have a vacuum and likely to be filled by kayas and anarchy and by hamas again. so we've been working for developing plans for security, for governance, for rebuilding. we haven't seen that come from israel. we've been working with arab countries and others on that plan. we have the same objective as

israel. we want to make sure that hamas cannot governor gaza again, and we want to make sure it is demilitarized and we have a different way and we think a more effective durable way to get that done and remain in conversation with israel about that. >> your national security memorandum that you signed said israeli civil harm mitigation efforts are inconsistent and inadequate. the prime minister said israel assesses the idf killed 14,000 terrorists and 16,000 civilians. does the u.s. share the israeli assessment that more civilians have been killed than actual terrorists? >> yes, we do. and i think the report makes clear that wild israel has processes, procedures and rules and regulations, to try to minimize civilian harm given the impact that this operation, this war in gaza has had on the

civilian population. >> and yet you're still -- >> those have not been applied consistently and effectively. there is a gap between the stated intent and some of the results that we've seen. but because it is so complicated in the midst of a war and particularly in the midst of a war where you have an enemy that behinds behind civilians, to make final determinations on the individual incidentsm. we're looking at the totality. we think it is reasonable to assess that there have been act acted inconsistent with law. we need to pursue the investigations just as israel is doing itself. >> mr. secretary, thank you for your time this morning. >> thanks, margaret. >> "face the nation" will be back in one minute. stay with us. but instead remade over and over... into the things that keep our food fresher, our families safer,

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>> you just heard secretary blinken explain the administration's policy. he said hamas does not abide by international law. israel is in consistent with humanitarian law but topped short of saying they're violating weapons sharing agreements, does this make sense to you. >> no it doesn't. it sounds like a lot of weazy millie mouth politics. it is like he was coached to say that as if it was a magic tal isman between the prohamas wing and the majority of the american people. the report that they put out friday night after news deadlines past was very clear. there was no evidence that israel violating international law. all civilian casualties in gaza are solely the responsible of hamas. israel is probably doing more than any military in history to avoid civilian casualties. >> well, actually, it said the u.s. intelligence community

notes security forces in israel havin flicked harm on civilians potentially using u.s.-provided equipment. u.s. assessed israel could do more to avoid civilian harm. so it doesn't say they aren't doing it -- >> secretary linken's own record said they can't reach that conclusion. ben carden, from the senate foreign relations committee, agreed that it said no evidence and said that joe biden was wrong to impose this defact or arms embargo on israel. they are doing more than any military in history to prevent civilian casualties. if hamas did not hide behind under civilians, but for that matter if hamas surrendered and pulling over the hostages, there would be no more suffering in gaza. >> you went to army law and you

deployed to iraq and afghanistan. it has to trouble you when the israeli prime minister said himself that they killed more civilians than terrorists. thousands more civilians thar tastes. >> it troubles me deeply that hamas is using them as human shields because that is their strategy. >> so should -- but to that point, because the united states provides billions of dollars in weapons to israel, should it have a say in how those weapons are used? because the needle blinken seemed to be trying to thread here was to say it was very specifically tailored in terms of with holding these large bombs. the 3500 bombs. >> well the reason israel needs these larger bombs is because hamas has buried tunnels where their holding hostages and where the leaders are holed up deeply underground. they're also potentially delaying the kits that allowed the so-called dumb bombs that

become smart precision bombs and based on report this is morning the administration is with holding intelligence about the location of senior leaders and potential hostages from israel to try to force israel not to go into rafah. >> the white house denies that and john kirby briefed the other way that the u.s. sharing intelligence including the location of sinwar who hos nat been killed in the seven months. >> it was in "the washington post." the wo"the washington post" is the message for the democratic party. >> you believe that -- >> i believe that joe biden is willing to do that. >> do you have any evidence of that. >> he's imposed a de facto -- >> they are sending arms this weekend -- >> we have have no idea what he's going to withhold. >> that was, as we just exchanged with secretary blinken, not a very clear statement in that cnn interview.

democrats have said that. but what blinken said there was it was jut that one single shipment. you're saying you do not believe the secretary of state when he said that? >> margaret, in march of 2022, antony blinken came on your show, this very show and said the united states would be perfectly fine to see fighter jets sent to ukraine. joe biden immediately reversed antony blinken's statement on this show. so what antony blinken said on this show could not be credited when joe biden is imposing a de facto arms embargo and at the same time he's letting arms embargoes expire. >> and you know $26 billion in emergency funding was just approved by the president and there is not an arms embargo on israel and not a block on intelligence sharing with israel. you know that? >> joe biden said last week that he's going to stop supplying offensive weapons that could be used in a urban setting. >> if they go into rafah.

>> that is the only setting into gaza. they have to go into rafah. israel's goal is to destroy hamas which committed the worse atrocity against jews. if israel does not go into rafah and destroy hamas, they will survive. >> well the biden administration said they could go into rafah, but i want to ask you more broadly because people like senator van hollen who will be on here will talk about the principle and the spirit and meaning of u.s. law. and you know that past presidents have withhold military aid to israel to force changes in behavior. president reagan did that. president bush did that. why do you have a problem with president biden doing it? >> well, first off, when you talk about the principle and the spirit of u.s. law, they're not talking about the letter of u.s. law because antony blinken's report concluded they did not

violate u.s. law. ronald reagan's decision to pause the delivery of fighter jets in the 1980s is totally different from what happened here. israel is fighting a war of survival against a terrorist group that committed the worst atrocity against jews. ronald reagan knew that the pause of fighter jets would not interfere with israel's fighting because they had plenty of fighters. did he not pause munitions. joe biden is not sending munitions in the middle of a shooting war that is a war of survival and look at the broader context. israel knew that ronald reagan had its back in the region. he sank half of iran's navy. joe biden has consistently given irans hundreds of billion dollars of dollars that -- >> and you know they dispute that and they are still sending weapons. but last month donald trump told "time magazine" bibi has been rightfully criticized by what took place on october 7th. do you agree with that are you

comfortable with any criticism of prime minister? >> i think they have acknowledged they have responsibility for the failures on october 7th and they have said as it the israeli custom, when this war is over, there will be a commission to figure out exactly what went wrong to ensure it didn't happen again. but president trump said just last night that he would provide israel with the weapons they need to finish the job. this would have never happened on president trump's watch, it didn't happen on his watch. and if he were president, this war would have probably already have been over with much less civilian suffering in gaza because he would have backed israel to the hilt from the beginning. >> well that is a debate on counter factuals for another day. but it is good to have you here in person. thank you for your time. we'll be right back.

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secretary of state say, they're narrowing this to hold specific kind of munitions. does this policy and the administration's explanation of it make sense to you? >> well, margaret, it is good to be with you and happy mother's day. and let me just say, that senator cotton totally misrepresented the position of president biden and the biden administration. so, i think the president is absolutely right to withhold these big, big bombs that could be used in rafah. remember, the president of the united states warned prime minister netanyahu prepeatedly, if there was an invasion in rafah, that the united states would make policy changes and prime minister netanyahu has ignored the president of the united states, ignored the president's efforts to reduce civilian casualties, ignored our

efforts to try to get more humanitarian assistance into gaza and ignored the priority of trying to bring back the hostages. so, yes, i support the president's actions here. i thought that they were very important to take. >> you, though, were part of this national security memorandum that we talked about with the secretary. you had helped tailor it and said the expertise and analysis of the state department has been swept aside to facilitate a predetermined policy outcome based on political convenience. are you saying that secretary of state's inability to conclude anything in this report is a political choice, not based on fact? >> well, i believe the facts and the law show what a lot of independent groups that the administration often relies on shows. so, amnesty international, human

rights watch, ox fam, an if independent task force established to review the facts and the law concludes that when you look at some of the ins dens, that these clearly were violations of international humanitarian law. so while i appreciate the fact that as secretary blinken said, the administration determined that it was reasonable to conclude that violations of international law had happened, i think there is enough on the books to be able to point to specifically cases and make specific determinations. and on that score, the administration did duck the hard questions. >> well, specifically, do you fear that this report helped essentially give political cover to prime minister netanyahu to continue to do what he's doing? >> well, i fear that by not

providing an unvarnished accounting of the facts and law, we have essentially stated that what is happening in gaza, so, for example, with the respect to the delivery of humanitarian existence and the total restriction of deliver of humanitarian assistance, by not calling that out flatly and saying that there had been arbitrary restrictions put on it, i fear that we have set a very, very low bar. a very low standard for what is acceptable. and i think that will come back to haunt us. so, yes, margaret, i worry that we didn't call out very clearly the fact that those restrictions on humanitarian assistance which is leading to hundreds of thousands of people on the verge of starvation, over 25 people already starved to death including kids. i do worry that that has essentially allowed a low bar to

go without pointing it out very clearly. >> this week, the former chair of the joint chiefs mark milley said before we get self-righteous about what israel is doing we shouldn't forget that the u.s. killed a lot of innocent people in iraq and syria. they killed 12,000 innocent french civilians and bombed hiroshima and nagasaki and 69 jpts cities. prime minister netanyahu said something very similar. >> well, margaret, there is no doubt that the united states is not been perfect, far from perfect. but since world war ii we've adopted many more measures to prestrict civilian harm and we try to improve it all the time. and of course, after world war ii, the world adopted the fourth article of the geneva convention whi which is designed to protect civilians in war. so millie could talk about the things that happened but the world tried to learn some of the

lessons after that. >> we're going to take a break and come back and finish this conversation, senator. r. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop ozempic® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking ozempic® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may increase low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. living with type 2 diabetes?

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>> announcer: this is the "cbs overnight news." today the biden administration delivered some of