i'm jane pauley. please join us when our trumpet sounds again next "sunday morning." ♪ i'm margaret brennan in washington and this week on "face the nation." with former president trump now officially a convicted felon, how will that impact campaign 2024? donald trump, was among the faithful when he dropped in on the saturday night ultimate fighting championship. in new jersey last night. >> boy, the round of applause he's getting is staggering. but what do voters think of the trump conviction outside of

the ufc. we have early reaction from across america and we'll tell what you is aled on the legal front. so we're going to be appealing this scam. plus how is the outcome of the case playing with the parties? for democrats, it is a defense of the judicial system. >> and it is reckless, it is dangerous, it is irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. >> and the republican refrain, attack it. >> the republican party is really, they've stuck, they stick together in this. they see it is weaponization of the justice department, of the fbi and you know that is all coming out of washington. >> north dakota governor and trump running mate contender doug burgum will be here and we'll talk with former u.s. attorney preet bharara. finally, the u.s. makes a major announcement in hopes of pushing israel to end the war with hamas. as the gaza humanitarian crisis continues to grow. it is all just ahead on "face

the nation." ♪ good morning and welcome to "face the nation," the seven week new york criminal trial is over. former president trump has been found guilty on all 34 charges against him. and he is now able to campaign freely until july 11th when he will be sentenced. that is exactly four days before he is officially nominated at party's convention in milwaukee. as a felon, trump cannot oeb a firearm or serve in a jury but can he vote for himself. as he can run sand be elected president. but we are clearly in uncharted territory and it will be some time before we can fully see the impact of the conviction.

our new cbs news poll finds that 57% of americans think the jury reached the right verdict. with virtually the shame sayre, 56%, say saying he received a fair trial. as more evidence of the partisan split in america, 96% of democrats say it was a right verdict and so did 56 of republicans say it was a wrong one and the trial was not fair. finally half think that trump is not fit to be president now that he's convicted with 40% saying that he is and 8% unsure. what you just heard trump say about the case coming from washington is not true. charges in this case were brought by the manhattan district attorney. it is a state case. which means an appeal would not autom automatically go to the supreme court. we want to bring in our chief correspondent robert costa who

covers trump and the entire trial for us in new york. and our chief legal correspondent jan crawford who has been covering the supreme court for decades but, janu, nothing like this ever before. can you help us to understand trump said he will try to appeal this conviction. what is the next step? >> well, i mean, as i said, this is a long way from over. but there is i think zero chance to this is going to be overturned before november. and the road ahead for trump on appeal doesn't look too good either. as for timing, he's got 30 days to file a notice of appeal. that is procedural. that could then start the process through the new york court state system, which could take over a year. now you said, as you pointed out in the intro, his supporters have been kind of throwing around the supreme court should get involved. the supreme court this. but you have to go through, when you're challenging, a state

court system first and then try to get the supreme court to take the case by raising constitutional issues. as for the appeal, the lawyers were laying the groundwork for potential issues from start to finish. starting with the venue and heavily democratic new york and the indictment and the charges themselves, a novel theory bringing federal election law to a state case. he's going to talk about the evidence that was allowed or not allowed and talk about the jury instructions and certain components of that and attacking the impartiality of the judge itself. but that is a very tough road to hoe. he has to show this is clear reversible error and that is very difficult to do. on any kind of appeal. and so i mean, that is why people say and bob, if you're in trouble, spend your money on a good trial lawyer because once you get into the appeals pros. >> the odds are not good and not good for donald trump here. >> bob, the political impact here, obviously, we're in the early stages.

but we know that lara trump, who is chair of the rnc said on another network this morning, they raised $70 million in 48 hours. is this only helpful? >> it is helpful in terms ever raising money. but for former trump, there is till logistical nightmare on the horizon. when i spoke to his lawyer todd blanche, he didn't rule out the possibility that trump could be in jail during the republican national convention. when sentencing happens on july 11th, there is an expectation, could be mutt on probation, but there was a tense trial. i was there for seven weeks. when you sat in the court, at times the judge cleared the courtroom because he was so frustrated with the defense and one of the witnesses that was being called. trump violated the gag order multiple times. so republicans, the top republicans in this country, are privately telling me they're not ruling out the possibility that trump could be in prip when he accepted the nomation. there is a concern that some traditional republicans might look at someone being called a

convicted felon and say i can't go there even as it motivated so many of trump's core supporters. >> jan, from all of the research, it seems like legal experts does not believe there will be jail time. >> not in this case. >> is that just a political talking point. >> i think it would be shocking to most people that he would get jail time for this. >> and that is not just because of secret service detail? >> no. if he's treated like other defendants facing a similar charge, again, also because of his age, he's a first-time offender and the charge itself is somewhat unusual bringing in that federal election law. so typically in kind of cases you would have other charges, fraud charges that could then carry jail time. so that makes this case different as well. it is just this one issue. >> but does he now have a criminal record? and there are three other criminal cases just to remind people in the federal level that

the special council has the two, one related to national security and mishandling classified the information and the other trying to change the outcome of the 2020 election and then the georgia case as well. when will the supreme court make a decision on whether mr. trump will face charges and trial ultimately for these federal cases? >> well, of course, trump has said he's absolutely immune from prosecution. he lost that argument in every court that was first considered. i think you'll lose that in the supreme court. that he's immune. but this does supreme court does seem to think there may be some immunity. so they're working on that decision now. wee expect it by the end of june. they've agreed to expedite this case. if it were orn the normal course of business could come in the fall or winter. so jack smith, the special council asked for a decision sometime this term. he is going to get that. the question now is whether or not he will then have time, if this case has to go back to the lower court and figure out what

immunity trump does have, whether he will have time to have a trial before november. but i think this verdict does lessen the pressure on the supreme court and on jack smith to get that conviction. there is a conviction now already and it is not going to be over turned by november. >> interesting point, bob, quickly, our polling shows 85% of republicans feel loyalty to trump as very or somewhat important. how is that impacting the campaign? > people close to former president trump tell me that he is watching very closely who is on television defending him and saying trump did not deserve to be found guilty and who is going to rally to his side at a crisis moment inside of the trump campaign. that is seen a lot like the access hollywood moment in october of 2016 which was involved in a sense with why this trial unfolded and they're saying if you're not out for trump right now, good luck trying to get a spot in this administration should he win. >> great analysis and insight from both of you. and jan, you have a busy june

ahead of you. we'll see more of you. and we turn now to attorney for the southern district of new york, preet bharara, who endorsed alvin bragg, the district attorney of manhattan in his election. he also used to work with and actually hired trump's attorney in the case todd blanche. good morning, to you, preet. >> good morning. just one quick question. didn't hire todd blanche but i did consider them to be friends of mine. >> and he was mr. trump's attorney in this trial. so what does having this criminal record now do for donald trump with these other three criminal cases? >> well so that is an interesting question. there is a lot of speculation about whether or not this criminal conviction will result in a -- in a incarcerated period for donald trump. that is up in the air. there are arguments in favor and against. but whatever happens, the fact of this criminal conviction will be on his record if it remains, at such time as the future

criminal trials takes place and if he get a conviction on the federal counts in the future, the fact of this conviction here, if it is still on the books would result if a potential higher prison sentence. it does have a consequence because he will now, unlike a week ago, have a criminal record and those are taken into account in meting out punishment. >> important point. you said you had promoted the president's attorney when you used to work together. would you promote him based on his performance in court defending mr. trump? >> you know. it is a very easy thing that i do and other people do on the panel and criticize people's performances. sometimes it is the case that someone could do a better job at trial. trials are difficult. there is a lot of scrutiny. but sometimes the fact and the law are what they are and sometimes terrific defense lawyers who perform very, very well lose and sometimes not good defense lawyers win because government hasn't proven its case. so i'm not going to take pot

shots at todd. i think he could have been stronger in some of the cross-examinations and i'll leave it at that. >> well sentencing is july 4th -- excuse me, july 11th, four days before the convention as we mentioned. what grounds for appeal do you think mr. trump has here? >> so, i think they'll make a number of points. donald trump is not one to leave anything on the cutting room floor. i think some of his arguments are nonfrivolous. i agree with what jan said, in the order nair course, it is difficult to get a criminal conviction overturned but it happens. it has happened to me and any good prosecutor, nobody has 100% record on appeal. that said, it is a very low percentage. i think a number of things, including that the fact that the judge didn't change the venue, the fak that the judge didn't recuse himself, i don't think those are strong but those will be made. the fact that stormy daniels testified about some of the details of their sexual

encounter were prejudicial and they opened the door to to that and then there is the technical business that i'm sure causes lay people's eyes to glaze over and that is the degree to which the second crime, the thing that made and transformed the misdemeanor into a felony, the basis of that did not have to be decided unanimously by the jury. so the further crime, the felony, was appropriate based on the jury's decision. if there was the falsification of the business documents was done to commit some other crime, namely an election crime in new york and that could have been down three different ways and they don't have to be unanimous on those three different ways and that is an issue for appeal. >> let me zero in on that because that is been something that mr. trump and his allies have talked about. this case was about trying to manipulate an election and fraud related to that. his allies say this was just -- it was a paperwork thing.

somebody mislabelled this as a legal expense. to understand this? >> yeah, look, the underlying misdemeanor, it is falsifying business records but the reason is becomes a felony, not the most serious but a felony and any felony is serious, is if that misdemeanor crime was done to commit or conceal another crime and that crime was the -- the promoting someone's election by unlawful means either done by the false fick aks of other documents or committing some other tax crime or further election fraud crime. so the prosecution, i think, did it as well as anybody could do for lay people because the jury was a series of lay people. that this was a serious thing that ind mined and interfered with the election in 2016 an that is serious and not to be taken lightly. >> so we're seeing some rhetoric from republican lawmakers

including senator marco rubio so said who president trump was held hostage, the sham of a political show trial like the ones the communities used in cuba in soviet union railing against the ruling class. in terms of our judicial system in this country, how should someone understand a characterization like that? >> well, i think, you know, it is silly. it is completely silly. the trial and all aspects of trial were done openly and in public. the jury selection process, someone needs to be reminded, was participated in by the trump legal team as well. they had all of the peremptory challenges they're afforded by law. judge, although there is some acuse accusations made about him impartiality, his ruling are there to see. he ruled there favor of the trump team and ruled against the trump team sometimes and he was fair and even-handed. a jury of 12 people who were selected and approved by both

sides brought in the verdict. >> right. >> so i don't know what is sham about it. the rules of evidence were follow complied with so i don't know what is happening here other than pure partisan politics. >> yesterday president biden was spending time with his son hunter and tomorrow in another unusual situation, the biden justice department will begin a trial in delaware against the president's son where he faces three felony gun possession charges, maximum 25 years prison. how much hot water is he in here? >> he's in substantial hot water because he's been charged federally. just like donald trump is in a lot of the hot water being charged in a state court. but think an important thing to consider here in the wake of your question about the accusations this vast conspiracy by state prosecutors and the federal justice department that is acting in a fashion, in a

partisan fashion to bring down the republican party. here you have the son of the sitting president of the united states of america, going into trial at the hands of his own justice department. in a million years, can anyone listening to this broadcast understand and expect that if donald trump was elected again, and a biden holdover u.s. trump jr., that donald trump wouldn't do something about it in the way that joe biden has stayed out of it. i don't think so. so that is important to remember. and the other thing that is happening this week is a continuation of the trial against democratic senior and important senator bob menendez by the same justice department that these politicians are accusing of being partisan. >> okay. preet bharara, thank you for your insight and analysis. we'll have to let it there and "face the nation" will be back in a minute. back in a minute. that's why at fisher investments, we keep a disciplined approach with your portfolio, helping you through the market's ups and downs. (husband) what about communication?

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running mate in this campaign. good a good morning to you. >> good morning. >> it is good to have you back on show. you heard the nation. 56% think trump got a fair trial. a majority of americans are unconvinced by this claim that it is all a sham. why do you think it is? >> well, i think part of it, polling is a point in time and hi a chance to look at some of your poll number this is morning and you saw in there that almost two-thirds of the respond ends say they weren't paying close attention and i understand that nair not paying close attention: it is a time to watch tv all day and read every report because they're facing all of the things, putting food on the table and gas in the car and all of the challenges that they're facing and i think as this moment in time passes, when we have the election coming this fall, people will make a decision about were they better, are they better off today than they were four years ago and

this is an unusual thing, this is not -- president trump is not a candidate that is unknown or never run before. they had an opportunity to live their life under four years of him. and they had a chance to prosper and they have a chance to understand what the world wooz like. no wars. and now it is a very different situation. while i think it is interesting and captivating right now to a lot of people. the election is not going to turn on this trial. >> the u.s. isn't involved in a war right now either. >> well we're involved in proxy wars. >> with you were then as well. but on your point, donald trump spends a lot of time talking about these trials. it is not just journalists. and it is historic. but he talks quite a lot about it and he held a extensve news conference on friday with a litany of grievances against the judge who will still decide on his sentencing. personal judgment wise, do you think that was a smart thing to do? >> i have a lot of empathy what he must feel like because as a business person and someone who

spent 30 years in tech and a lot of that was in software that dealt with business processes, i've never seen anything like this where you could, you know, ma magically take a spread out over 11 paychecks or 12 vouchers and 11 invoices and each of those they magically become set of misdemeanors. they become a felony. and -- >> because of the election fraud as you just heard. >> i don't know that anybody in america, if we're asking about the voter, if anyone could explain how a business transaction filing errors from seven years ago become federal election law when federal election law is not a state -- this is brought in the county court, federal election is federal, and i don't know, theal kehmy of forcing these misdemeanors, from a business perspective, ceos around america, if you've had hundreds

of millions of business filings in america in the last sen years why aren't courts clogged with other ceos. >> if they were running for president and changing the business records to ab skewer donations to their campaign. this is not just filing error. >> i hear what your saying. but most americans cannot explain it. >> it is complicated. sure. >> many legal experts that stood on the curb outside for six weeks can't explain it. so americans are going to come back to the issues that effect them. because this trial doesn't effect them. the inflation asks them. >> it does. and i want to talk about those issues in a few minutes. we just put up a graph to show you our polling. it is two-thirds of those said they are watching closely. but there terms of like the bookkeeping argument, this was about a criminal conspiracy to influence an election and creating paper work to cover it up. if the quibble is about paperwork violations, the president of the united states,

his son, said under the influence of drugs, he committed a paperwork error. that is now going to federal court because of what he did in purchasing that gun. that was a paperwork violation. are you also offended by that? is there also a miscarriage of justice. >> i think what is sad is the weaponization of the system and what we're going to see more of this, earlier -- >> you think it is weaponized against hunter biden? >> i think it is weaponized against president trump, but fur fr you're talking about equivalency in the courts, we know that media companies have acknowledged that they worked in conjunction with the federal government to suppress information about hunter biden's laptop during an election year. >> that is not true whatsoever when it comes to this journal i ists involved with this program. >> then why were his stories taken down off of media companies. why was it being suppressed

during that election. so why -- talk about the steele dossier. we could go back. there is all kinds of things going on in our country related to election integrity and i think when you're an independent or a democrat or a republican, we should all care about election integrity and if we want to have a equivalency, then to make sure that we're at a level playing field. >> we have to finish this conversation on the other side of this commercial break. so let me do that and we'll finish it. so stay with me, governor. and stay with us. one second.

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welcome b welcome back to "face the nation." we want to continue our conversation now with north dakota republican governor doug burgum. governor, north dakota has tremendous energy resources and you reportedly are helping the trump campaign craft energy policy. that is accurate? >> well i wouldn't say that. i'm just saying that i'm -- i am volunteering to supreme court

president trump during this campaign because as an energy rich state full of natural resources, and i've had the honor of being a governor under president trump and also under president biden, and i see the difference between the two administrations. i've got a front-row seat in understanding that the biden energy policies are hard on the american consumers and empowering adversaries overseas. >> and there is more oil produced in this country now, more than any other country ever, 13 million barrels per day. >> and north dakota is down and iran is up under these policies an the policies are built around the idea that somehow if you shut down the u.s. energy industry, that that is going to be good for the environment. but when we stop production here, because it may be higher than it has before. >> it is. >> but it should be much higher because we should be displacing energy coming from russia and the people that are fighting wars are doing that on their oil sales. >> let me ask you that. according to "the washington

post" in their reporting, donald trump met with oil executives and said if they raise a billion dollars to return him to the white house, he'll reduce regulation if lekked. start auctioned off. >> i was at that meeting. that did not happen. that is not what happened that meeting. and that is been reported over and over again. >> did he ask for a billion dollars in donations. >> he didn't ask for a billion dollars in donation and there was no quid pro quo. think what he did last time for the energy. this guy cut regulation for everybody whether they donated to him or not. he helped get gas prices down for all americans, republicans and independents and democrats whether they donated to him or not. people with hearsay that weren't -- they report it like a fact when it is not a fact. >> well i'm asking to you make sure. "the washington post" also reported that trump suggested to the oil executives he was ease scrutiny of mergers and acquisitions if he wins. do you think that the energy needs to consolidate and big oil

needs to get bigger? >> i think the free enterprise needs to compete on a global level and what is going on -- >> so he would do that? >> i'm not telling that he would do that but joe biden two companies want to merge and they come in and they confiscate all of the executives phone numbers ahead of time and make accusations about solutions. >> so what was promised in that meeting since you said you were there. >> he didn't make promises. he listened and went around the room for two hours telling me what are your challenges and what your facings. he was there learning the whole night about the challenges that we're facing. >> so is he targeting the industry to target his re-election bid. >> he'll be meeting with people across silicon valley and he's doing what candidates do, is you go and listen to an industry and this fundamental to the entire economy, it is not just one industry. it feeds the inflation which is

affecting every american so say what could we do to produce cleaner energy for officially. president trump talks all of the time about getting oil prices down. oil executives are not thrilled when he said i'm going to get oil prices down. they make more money when oil prices are up. >> climate and environmental policy are important to young voters in particular. are you at all concerned that you will alienate them by aligning so closely with the energy industry. >> i'm not concerned about it at all because in north dakota, we are producing energy cleaner and safer and smarter than anywhere else in the united states. >> and you want to keep some of the environmental restrictions. >> they're hurting this country, not helping it. if regulation -- people who think that your going to solve the environmental issues with regulations, the way we solve that is with innovation. and the way we solve with it innovation is we innovate to have zero carbon liquid fuels. the biden administration is on team china.

they want every car to be an ev. >> but they just tariffed them. i could talk to you for an hour about rare one of crises right of the middle east with the israel-hamas con flick. joining us is scott anderson. and he jones us right now from aman, jordan. scott, i know you were in the u.s. army. you served two tours now in afghanistan. from what you've seen in gaza, how does it compare? i'm sorry, i could not hear scott right now. >> sorry. >> there you go. >> i was going to say gaza is much worse tan afghanistan was. everywhere you go, the scale of destruction did he fied description and it looks like

something out of a movie and with the infrastructure suffering much worse. so i never saw anything like that in afghanistan that we're seeing now in gaza. >> the u.s. aid chief sam anna power said conditions are worse now in gaza than before due to the israeli military operations and closed crossings. what is the humanitarian situation right now? >> so what you have is 2.2 million people that have been displaced multiple times in rafah, ahead of the administration, we had over a million people again displaced from gira bella and what they're lacking is the basic necessities. they need food and access to water and access to showers and toilets and medical care. and because ever a variety of factors we are unable to import everything that is need and to make sure that everybody has the

basic necessities that they need to get through every day. >> 19 different aid organizations released a letter this week saying palestinians are surviving on less than 3% of their daily water needs. heatitis is spreading. medical evacuations have been halted. virtually every hospital has been issued evacuation orders. the pentagon said it has suspended air drops of food because of the israeli military action and as we know, the pier is not really operating. who exactly is impeding the delivery? >> it is a varietyive things. not just one person that you could point to. all of the -- the bulk of our air comes in there egypt, it starts at port saeed and it is brought in and by us to the palestinian side and then on ward for the last mile distribution within gaza. there is a lot of steps that have to go perfectly right for all of that to work and

unfortunately not everything has gone right. for a time, egypt was not sending trucks. where we had aid in the country. we couldn't access. and we're -- we've been perpetually playing catch-up on the aid situation since october. not everybody has a conflict. and you highlights our new one concern which is access to clean drinking water. without that in, in addition to hepatitis, you have cholera and other diseases that we could see an outbreak happen very soon and it is something that concerns us and in additionally it is getting hot. it is summer. it is essentially you're in the desert. and if people don't have access to clean drinking water, that is a problem for dehydration as well as for disease. >> and i know you are with the u.n. so you can't talk about poels and policy. but president biden did make this address friday talking about a proposal for a cease-fire and hostage deal. he said it would come with 600

aid trucks persupplies, with sh the like. who is going to be doing all of that distribution? >> i mean, that would be the entire international humanitarian. currently it feeds a little over half of the population. feeding about 1.3 or 1.4 million people every day so it is us with the rest of the ux n. and we would welcome a cease-fire. it is time for the hostages to go home to their families and more aid to come in and start rebuilding gaza. >> scott anderson, thank you for telling us what you are seeing and experiencing on the ground. we'll be right baxt. we pulled people off the street

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good to see you. >> good to be here. >> so on friday president biden said that hamas is no longer capable of carrying out another october 7. do you think they can declare success now? >> i think they're a lot closer than they were a few months ago. i still think hamas political and military leadership exists largely hole. i think hamas has been significantly -- >> you also have raised a few times in the past few months concerns about america's continued presence in the middle east. which you say is crucial here. right now we're seeing so many different flash points. one of them in the red sea where our cbs's david martin reported the u.s. used a 5,000 pound bunker buster bomb in yemen just this past week. houthis are attacking shipping. we have concerns about the troop safety and in syria and in iraq.

does it need to continue? >> well i think we remain the critical nation in the middle east. think everybody looks to us to be the honest broker. if we take the situation with the houthis as the example, i would argue we've been too passive. we've of we've allowed them to dominate global maritime communications by closing down the suez canal and that is something that is not only bad for the united states but for many other nations around the world. it has nothing to do with israel on the con flick in gaza but it is the principle for the united states. but we've been deploying war ships in the red sea, the sign that we're dropping larger bombs may be a good thing but we need to go after the source of the atacks and that is houthi leadership in yemen and i would argue that the threat of escalation is very small if we conduct these attacks. >> when you say we, you think the biden administration. >> i think the united states and our allies. >> you largely tried to avoid politics and directly addressing

the president's you served under in the book that you wrote here but have had a key role in these significant security decisions killing the isis commander, bagdadi, taking solemani off the battlefield and executing the withdrawal from afghanistan and you spread around some blame to past u.s. presidents but do point to the doha agreement as one of the worst negotiating mistakes ever made by the u.s. >> i think it was. and it was -- and also by the way we implemented the agreement. had we stuck to the strict terms of the agreement, we might be able to make something of it. but in fact, we treated the do ha agreement as two presidents, president trump and president biden. where there were procedures in the agreement, if we had respected them, that would require the taliban to do certain things in return. we did not require that. and inectively, would you argue, that the do ha agreement was the

m mechanism that killed afghanistan because we were eager to leave regardless of cost and that was a very important and deflating thing i think for government of afghanistan. >> as you point out that was across two presidents. biden an trump. >> would you argue that trump and joe biden are as unalike but they both shared a policy of leaving afghanistan regardless really ever consequnces. >> you drafted resignation letters a few times but you came close after that withdrawal there afghanistan and a drone strike on august 29th. that was intended to kill isis but killed civilians. if you have such strong objections, why was that the moment where you almost resign sfld and not others. >> so i feel it is very important that for the republic or in the way that our military system should work and not the way it has worked. back through the korean war an

the second world war many generals disagreed with presidential charging my subordinates, then i felt it was necessary for me to actually accept part of that blame. now, we did not do that. >> right. you stayed on. you in the book talk quite a lot about conversations you had around how to implement the withdraw from afghanistan and the planning for it, particularly with the trump administration. at one point you say the chief of staff to president trump, mark meadows, advised not to present certain options out of concern he'd choose them, like going to zero in afghanistan. you wrote trump made the decision to kill soleimani but his national security advisers told him there would be no consequences which is not what intelligence said or what centcom thought. why is it important for people

to know the people around the commander-in-chief were not sharing the full picture with him or changing what he was allowed to say. >> advisers give all kinds of different opinions. military input is part of that. i was relentlessly focused on that. every president has to make political calculations, not just these two presidents, but as far back as president roosevelt in the second world war had to balance objectives with what was going on around the world. that's not new or unusual. i think in the case of soleimani, i believe the president made the right decision. i don't believe we made the right decision in afghanistan and i've been clear about that in open testimony and that goes across two presidents. >> it's cherry-picking information to the commander-in-chief when he has to make a call. you write about the bickering and finger-pointing that followed trump political appointees at the pentagon.

you wrote about the choice of drawing down 2,500 troops. you don't know where that number came from. it was arbitrary. there was an incident in which a mysterious signed letter appeared saying withdraw from afghanistan. you hunted that down and it was ultimately discarded. how does something like that happen with such high consequence, and do you fear it could happen again if there is a second trump administration? >> margaret, i think the period of time from the presidential election of 2021 until the inauguration of 2022 was a particularly dangerous time inside the pentagon. i believe there that's where the u.s. military has a role to play. it's a non-political role, a role where we answer the orders that were given. at the same time you have political appointees inside the pentagon and they have their own objectives there. we respond to orders from the chain of command. it's very important to know who can and can't give orders. a lot of people who walk around

the pentagon aren't in position to give orders. the orders flow from the president to the secretary to the combatant commanders. everybody has opinions, but they're not in the chain of command. >> general, it is a fascinating read. thank you for coming on to talk about the book. >> thanks, margaret. >> we'll be back.

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we're joined by matt we're joined by the deputy national security adviser from the trump administration, the author of the book "the boiling moat, urgent steps to defend taiwan in july." you say the clock is ticking. beijing has been involved in the most comprehensive peacetime military buildup of any nation since world war ii. are you predicting conflict will happen either on president biden or president trump if he's re-elected, on their watch? >> the dictator in beijing, xi jinping intends to try to take die want, to annex it by force if necessary. we also know this would be catastrophic for american prosperity and security, but my

co-authors and i are actually quite optimistic that this is a war that can be deterred. it means we've got to take some steps urgently. these are workable steps it doesn't require a massive new investment. we've got the technologies we need, but taiwan, japan and the united states in particular need to take the steps we think we've laid out in the book. >> this week the defense secretary is in asia. he actually met with his chinese defense minister counterpart. you can see it there. the first meeting since 2022. the last guy disappeared. austin said a fight with china is neither imminent or unavo unavoidable. when we hear the rhetoric out of wash right now it sounds like we're heading towards conflict. what do we need to do to avoid it? >> for starters, we need to invest more in munitions making. one of the changes the chinese government is looking at is

would we be able to stay in a fight more than the initial battle that would be involved in taking taiwan? if we don't think we have the industrial base, and right now we haven't optimized our industrial base. >> even with the national security -- >> amazingly, i don't think many americans realize our defense spending right now is less than half of what it was in the 1980s during the cold war. that our military in terms of manpower is smaller today than it was on the eve of world war ii. so we have to put more money in. we also have to do things to optimize our defense spending so it's not guaranteed profits no matter how inefficient the manufacturers are. there are things we can do to super charge our military manufacturing, to take advantage of our innovative base.

>> it's interesting to hear you and before you the general talk about the scale of the problem set facing the president of the united states and the next commander-in-chief. that's why i think it's important to have this conversation this week. you resign from the trump administration after the violent attack on the capitol on january 6th. you then testified to congress that you feared america's national security was in harm that day, that it gave ammunition to feed a narrative that our system of government doesn't work, the u.s. is in decline. if you continue to contest an election, you're not just contesting an election, you're actually challenging the constitution itself. do you fear that erosion is taking place right now with what we're hearing on the campaign trail. >> i think the perception erosion is -- i actually think the united states is incredibly strong. we have all of these advantages. the century can be ours if we

don't lose our nerve. i think that -- look, election day will be a referendum. it's the best kind of referendum. it's where the american people get to decide who the next president is going to be. i hope that the outcome is decisive so we don't end up with either side challenging the results, but if they do, just like with the last election, the courts will determine it. we have a system in place that allows us to adjudicate the outcomes of our election. >> now you even have the ranking member of the senate intelligence committee coming out and repeating things that undercut our judicial system, comparing it to the soviet union? >> there's no way -- >> what does day jing think of that? >> beijing -- it's an interesting moment, beijing really relishes propaganda that

is designed to discredit the united states or cause us to doubt our system of government. jury that has just convicted a president of the united states. you've also got the son of ae you heard earlier, beijing's propaganda can only go so far. at the end of the day, americans -- thank god we live in a system where the american people will decide who their president is. thy have all the information available to them. >> we will try to bring it to them here. thank you very much, att. we'll be right back.

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thank you for watching. i'm margaret brennan.

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