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brook: these are people who are trying to change the world. startups have this energy that energizes me. m thriving by helping others everyday. people who know, know bdo. narrator: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. and by judy and peter blum kovler foundation; pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs. announcer: and now, "bbc news". ♪ >> hello, i'm christian fraser, and this is "the context." >> they will be looking at a phased release so you would have a small number of hostages to start with alongside a cease-fire. if that cease-fire holds, more hostages to be released. >> it takes some time, sweat and tears, maybe some blood but it will end up with you could call

it cease-fire, humanitarian pause, different terms in the diomatic community. but the reality is without safety, there is no humanitarian operation. >> we were warm in our home but we came here in the wind and rain. we cannot even find cover for our children. they shiver at night. how long will this go on for? ♪ christian: israel is in full control of northern gaza but the fighting is intensifying around the hospitals. two medical facilities were hit today. the world health organization says the attacks are "appalling." tonight w will speak with israel's former ambassador to the you and -- u.n. what will his reaction be to but we witnessed in the knesset?

right wing families in shouting message with families of the hostages. and the decision to sack sam altman has provoked rebellion at openai. more than two thirds of staff threatened to quit unless the board resides. and happy birthday, joe biden. the u.s. president turns 81 today, a number that seems to be moving in the opposite direction to his polling. his approval rating just want to the lowest level of his presidency. good evening. there are hopes rising that some of the 240 people kidnapped by hamas on october 7 could soon be freed. the qatari's who are leading the negotiations said only minor obstacles remain. president biden said he and ■hi team are working hour-by-hour to get it done. but the families of these hostages who today have been meeting embers of the war cabinet say the priorities of the government are all wrong.

>> [speaking on anguish language] >> talk life, not death, pleaded the families, talking about reintroducing the death penalty for hamas attackers. in response, the ministers of nist are netanyahu's coalition said that anyone speaking out against the death penalty "represented hamas or than they represent a state of israel." the situation in gaza continues to be grim. the medical director of the indonesian hospital said that shells had crashed into his surgery department today, killing at least 10 people. we cannot independently confirm the numbers but the bbc has verified footage which shows tanks close to the hospital. the directors said they were 20 meters from the complex. israel says that like al-shifa, hamas is using medical facilities as cover. that is denied by hamas and indonesia. some hopeful news, 28 of the 31

premature babies evacuated from the al-shifa on sunday have now arrived in egypt for medical treatment. we will get reaction to all of that from danny shortly. he is here in the studio. first, this report from our special correspondent. a morning, you may find -- warning, you may find some of these images distressing. >> a tiny baby from gaza now safe in egypt, straight into a waiting incubator. 28 premature babies have been transferred here. desperately vulnerable still but beyond the reach of war, unlike about a million children who remain in ga. night and day, they are at risk. here, more wounded children being brought in. palestinians say they are the victims of an israeli airstrike on residential buildin.

and here, israeli tanks near gaza's indonesian hospital, where 12 people are reported killed. the army says troops came under fire from within the hospital and fired back at the enemy. in israel, families with loved ones held in gaza are daring to hope there will be a deal to free at least some of them. this was the moment on october 7 when some hostages were dragged away from their homes, barefoot and in terror. his cousin was among them. >> this is my cousin, 39 years old. he is an occupational therapist. she loves traveling, wonderful musician. >> she is being held along with

her sister-ilaw, whose three-year-old keeps asking when she is coming home. >> hamas does not give us any signs of life. we don't even know if my cousin and her sister-in-law are alive or not. >> there has been a lot of positive indications in the last few days. are you hopeful now, cautious, what is your mood? >> yes, i am hopeful. i am hopeful. i think i will see them again. i think we should be hopeful. i think this is the only way that we can get up in the morning and start our day. our lives stopped october 7. >> the deal, if it comes, may only secure the release of a few dozen women and children. for many families, the torment will go on. christian: a number of western

doctors that we have had on this program, who for many years have aveled to gaza, are adamant that was never any sign of hamas activity around the surgical wards in which they were assisting. but israel is pointing to an interview done by an anonymous reddish hospital who worked in al-shifa, who gave this account to a reporter at france 24 chaz gone viral. >> when i was first asked to work there, i was told there was a part of the hospital i was not to go near, and if i did i would be in danger of being shot. >> actually shot with a gun? >> yes. >> was it explained to you why that was? >> no, but implicit was that it was being used for nonmedical purposes. >> did you see anything nonmedical, did you obey the inructions to stay away? >> i stayed away but i saw a few nonmedical characters coming in and out all the time. christian: with me is the senior member of israel's consent and former ambassador tohe united

nations. welcome to the studio. i am sure you would point to the audio, and the videos he released over the weekend as evidence that hamas was operating around hospitals. the issue for a lot of people, given we have two more attacks on hospitals and medical complexes today, is where is the redline, and is proportional to what is happening on the ground? >> those are not hospitals. you cannot find hospitals in the u.k. with grenades, ak-47s, tunnels. look at what happened on october 7. hamas brought many othe hostages into the hospitals in daylight. we released some of the footage. we have more footage that we didn't release. where were the doctors, staff? they went through the emergency room, took them through the tunnels, some of the hostages were executed in the hospital. you cannot consider a hospital where hamas is doing whatever they want for years.

we will do what we can to minimize civilian casualties in a hospital, but if hamas continues to hide in the hospital, in you and facilities, we will go after them wherever they will be. christian: you are surely not saying there are not patients in the hospitals, medical teams. one of the clinics that was hit, they have 50 patients in there. >> if you read the international law, you are allowed to attack hospitals. we don't want to do that, we try to avoid that. christian: humanitarian law says any attack on a hospital must be in proportion to the military advantage gained. are these attacks proportional to the broader threat that israel faces at this moment on the ground? >> absolutely, yes. we called the directors of the hospitals many times. that is why the leadership of hamas are not there anymore because they knew we were coming in, so they ran away with the hostages. we called the director, told him that they should move out.

we can help them to facilitate. some of them listened to us. we will continue to do that. but it is a war. we are fighting people. if they choose to hide behind civilians, hospitals, have to find them wherever they are. christian: with respect to the war, what can you tell us about this negotiation ongoing? we have had no reaction to it. reports are that there would be a four, five-day pause in exchange for 50 hostages. no reaction from the israeli government. what do you know? >> i am cautious because the families that i meet with all the time, what the prime minister says, we listen to every word that you say. we are hopeful, putting together a lot of effort. we think the international community is involved with the process but we are dealing with psychopath. we don't know where the deal will go in the end or not but we are committed to bringing back the babies, the mothers, we cannot leave anybody behind.

christian: i know that you are close to the hostages. last time you were on our program, you were holding up the poster of people taken into gaza. what do you make up what you have seen in the because nessa -- knesset today? if they introduce the death penalty for those that were caught on october 7 and begins killing them, won't hamas exact the same retribution on the hostages it is holding? >> now is not the time to discuss anything like that. it was a mistake. we should have the families. we should listen to them. that debate we can do afterward. christian: so you condemn the security minister for introducing the bill at this time? >> now is not the time to do anything. we have to defeat hamas, bring back the hostages. by the way, i support the death penalty for those atrocities against our people, but now we are in the middle of the war, we have so many hostages, it is not time to introduce legislation. christian: president biden made

it clear in his op-ed this weekend that the americans want the west bank and gaza to be reunited under an invigorated, his words, palestinian rule working toward a two state solution. use of art that -- do you support that? >> we appreciate president biden's support but it is wishful thinking. in 2000 five, we gave the keys to the palestinian authority and gaza, and a few years later the hamas started a civil war. pa. went away and hamas took over. they prove they are not capable of doing it. i don't think we are in a position to govern gaza. it is legitimate to discuss the day after. first we have to defeat hamas, change the regime of people, and then we can have a proper discussion. it will involve regional, international players, but you cannot count on the pa for that. christian: there is no hamas in the west bank? >> there is.

we are fighting against hamas but they are not in a position where they can govern and use the authority to build a terror state like they did in gaza. christian: the palestinian authority, which president biden sees as a potential governing party in gaza says there are 250 people, 52 children killed in the west bank by israeli forces, another eight by israeli settlers. he is concerned, president biden, but what is happening in the west bank, so much so that he would sanctiosettlers in the west bank. why have you not reigned in though settlers? >> we have condemned any act of violence. a tiny percentage of people, many of them teenagers who committed those crimes. we arrest them, put them in court, in jail. but look at what the pa does. they glorify violence. you mentioned president abbas. so far he has that condemned the attacks on october 7. i will condemn any act of

violence against civilians but i have not heard anybody from the pa leadership condemning hamas atrocities, so don't blame us about the culture of hate. christian: october 7, as heinous as it was, did not happen in a vacuum. before that we had a lot of violence in the west bank which stirred the hatred and resentment in gaza. that is what concerns the american administration, that the israeli government is not doing enough to control the violence in the west bank, and it is bringing more violence. perpetuating more violence. >> there is no justification for october 7. we disengage from gaza in 2005, uprooted the communities in gaza, and left. look what happened. we had a cease-fire and has chose to break the cease-fire. there is no explanation for that heinous act of violence.

i am hopeful that one day there is leadership among the palestinians that will speak about peace with the israelis. but when we don't see the pa condemning hamas today, we are skeptical. christian: you wrote an op-ed for the wall street journal on tuesday of last week, calling for countries around the world to accept limited numbers of gazan families. you will know how sensitive that issue is because they are repeated allegations from palestinian and arab countries that israel is ultimately seeking to expel palestinians from gaza. is that the motive behind this? >> absolutely not. i would open with a colleague of mine from the opposition who said clearly, only those who chose to leave gaza should have that option. gaza was not a nice place to live before the bar, it will not be a nice place after the war. the international community should think about options to offer them to move out. we said it should be a symbolic

number that every country would take upon itself to help those palestinians to have a better life. if you want to move to another country, you can do that. i can do the same. why not have that option for some of the people in gaza who want to move out? christian: we have to leave it there. we will get some reaction to that. around the world and across the u.k., you are watching bbc news. >> cyber technology has become embedded in our daily lives, our phones, cars, however data is processed. it is constantly evolving but bring security risks as well to the public, businesses, government. a northwest is now at the heart of the cyber economy and that this careers event, schoolchildren have been practicing skills needed to develop cyber technology and take on the threats it poses. >> it was a lot of fun but the skills we need are supposed to be to communicate. >> do you think something like

this would be good as a job later on? the northwest is becoming a cyber corridor, stretching from manchester to lancaster. manchester has the government's intelligence agency hub, while preston has businesses like bae systems, and will have the national cyber force protecting the country from cyber attacks. >> for more stories from across the u.k., head to the bbc website. christian: you are watching bbc news. the un's human rights chief has called for an international investigation into the alleged violations of international law that he blames on both hamas and israel. this weekend after the evacuation of the al-shifa hospital, he posted another appeal for a cease-fire. >> dread and fear etched on the faces of children, women, and men is too much to bear. how much more violence, bloodshed and misery will it take before people come to their

senses? how many more civilians will be killed? this must stop. humanity must come first. a cease-fire on humanitarian and human rights grounds is desperately needed now. christian: it is quite obvious that hamas went and i murderous rampage on october 7, something we have that witnessed since the holocaust, but since then more than 13,000 palestinians have been killed, two thirds of them are women and children. how do we define that? israel's opponents alleged genocide, crimes against humanity, collective punishment, all denied by the israeli government who would point to the likes they have gone to in order to protect civilians. but some say that while israel has every right to defend itself, it is not without limits, and this is a pivotal moment. joining me to discuss is professor of holocaust and genocide studies at brown university. he was born and raised in israel

and served with the idf as a company commander. professor, thank you for joining the program, we are grateful for your time. i think you just heard danny explain the rationale behind the attacks on the hospitals in gaza. what did you make of it? >> heard some of it, yes. i think that you asked him the right question, which is the israel proportionality. it appears from the figures of civilian the, possibly as you say, up to 13,000 including thousands of children, in proportion to the military goal of the idea that we are way beyond what should be acceptable . christian: the israeli military commanders would insist, and we just hrd from danny danon, that they are trying to limit civilian casualties.

they attribute this large number of dead people to the fact that hamas is hiding out in hospitals, using civilians as human shields, placing command centers under some of these structures. in international law, does that give them an excuse for the number of casualties that have died? >> i don't think so. it is true that, in war, international law makes it possible also to have so-called collateral damage, the death of civilians, in areas of military activities. but the question is, is there a ratio between the military goals that one wants to accomplish and the number of civilians who were killed? it seems at this point that israel has caused some damage to hamas. i don't know how great that

damage is, but has managed to kill very large numbers of civilians, and to attack areas, from the report that we are hearing -- i am not on the ground -- but attacking areas where there were large concentrations of civilians perhaps in order to kill one or two military commanders of hamas. that seems to me and to many other people, well beyond what should be acceptable. christian: how would you define that, under what law? >> under international law, if you examine, for instance, the geneva convention, subsequent protocols, crimes of war, serious violations of international conflict, and in that there is direct reference to the relationship,

proportionality of damage caused to civilians, innocent civilians. you need to think of specific cases. if you drop a very large bomb on a school in which there are refugees, because you have information that there is one or two commanders there of the enemy and you choose an especially large bomb knowing that there will be scores or hundreds of civilians there, then you should consider that twice. if you have not considered that, not taking that into account, chosen the wrong kind of armament, you may well be accused of crimes of war. christian: how does langge fit into this? i will read you two quotes, one from october from the defense minister. we are fighting human animals and we are.acting accordingly human animals must be treated as such. there will be no electricity or no water. there will only be destruction. you wanted hell, you will get

ehll. here is another from a major general. the state has no choice but to turn gaza into a place that is rarely or permanently impossible to live in. why are those statements relevant? >> precisely. the same publication published yesterday, an argument about the condemnation from other countries in the world about the possibility of there being epidemics among the refugee population, displaced population in southern gaza. having that happen would make it easier, faster for the idf to win the war, lower the cost for their own men. these kinds of statements, also by the prime minister himself, that israel should remember,

because of the attack on the israelites, israelites should kill every man, woman, and child. these are statements that are, a, incitement for the soldiers. soldiers hear that and behave accordingly. b, there are indications of intent. in some of these papers, these are genocidal. this is an indication of genocidal intent. i don't think that israel is carrying out genocide right now. as i said, it appears to be engaged in war crimes, but with these kinds of statements, dehumanization of the entire population, calling for its eradication, for flattening gaza, much of which has occurred already. the city of gaza is part of gaza is partly in ruins right now. that is extreme concerning. christian: not very long left in

our interview, but you are a student, professor of the holocaust. i recently returned from auschwitz, my second visit. i remember the inscription. "for ever let this place be a cry of despair and a warning to humanity." we should not forget in the context of what took place on october 7 there is a threat to jews worldwide, even today, which is why that instruction is relevant, but some would argue that it is entirely relevant when we consider what is happening in gaza. would you agree? >> i would totally agree with that. after world war ii, monuments were put everywhe with the saying, never again. people didn't pay much attention to that in the intervening time. there have been many genocides, many crimes against humanity in the intervening time. the meaning of that term was not

never again, the holocaust, that already happened, but never do anything like that again. it is relevant to what israel is doing now in gaza. christian: professor, grateful for your time this evening. thank you for coming on the program. we will take a short break. the other side, we will talk about some of the wider politics in the middle east. narrator: funding for this presentation of this program is provided by... narrator: financial services firm, raymond james. man: bdo. accountants and advisors. narrator: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. and by judy and peter blum kovler foundation; pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs. ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ narrator: funding for this presentation of is program is provided by... narrator: pediatric surgeon. volunteer. topiary artist. a raymond james financial advisor tailors advice to help you live your life. life well planned.