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brook: these are people who are trying to change the world. startups have this energy that energizes me. i'm thriving by helping others everyday. people who know, know bdo. narrator: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. and by judy and peter blum kovler foundation; pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs. announcer: and now, "bbc news". >> hello, this is th. >> i think i feel this is the way they are going to try and win. that is not the way it goes. it is a very bad thing, a very bad precedent. it is the opening of a pandora's box. it is a very sad thing that has happened this situation. >> you can't have a country

where every four years there is a cycle of political recrimination where one administration attacks the prior administration. >> we will get a judgment in due course, but both sides have the opportunity to appeal this to the supreme court. it does not have to take up the case, but it is something as momentous as this, so it just might. ♪ donald trump swaps the campaign trail for the courthouse. where does presidential immunity begin and end? we will look at the arguments heard in court and the implications of the pending decision. also tonight, postmasters were told only they had access to their post office i.t. systems. but was that strictly true? the union representing the postmasters say they not only

believe they have access to the accounts, they can change them in real time. more problems for boeing. united and alaska say their mechanics found loose bolts in a number of their 737 max nines. the aircraft with a door plug blowout mid over organ last week. good evening. the decision which rests with the u.s. appeals court in washington, d.c., is of fundamental importance. not only to the 2024 election. the judges must decide whether a u.s. president by virtue of the office he holds, is entitled to exceedingly broad protections from criminal prosecution. the statements and actions taken while in office. should donald trump be exposed and excused from the actions he talked to overturn the 2020 election, and was his challenge of t result of the election in his remit as come there in chief

-- commander-in-chief? six days out from the iowa caucus, donald trump decided to sit in on those arguments. not obliged to be there, but in the view of his campaign team and evidence of previous court appearances, it would seem the legal challenges are hugely beneficial to his reelection bid . here he is speaking after the hearing. >> this is the way they are going to try and win. that is not the way it goes. it is a very bad thing, a very bad precedent. it is the opening of a pandora's box. it is a very sad thing that has happened with this whole situation. when they talk about threat to democracy, that is the real threat to democracy. i feel as a president, you have to have immunity. if you don't, that is an example of this case with immunity and i did nothing wrong. >> let's go to gary o'donoghue

who has been watching events in washington for us. three juries on this panel. the longest serving is the judge karen henderson. what she said this afternoon will be taken as a signal. from what i saw, she seemed to be quite skeptical donald trump was asking within his raymond. >> yes. the tone of the questioning generally from those judges was what you are asking for would lead to some extraordinary situations. potentially, hypothetical yes. but potentially real situations. a lot of them were asking if you get this immunity, a president would be able to sell a pardon, would then be able to -- if he was found out, just resign, avoid impeachment, not be prosecuted, or be able -- or the assassination of one of his

political opponents, resign, not get prosecuted. they were producing some examples they thought would make a mockery of what natural justice would suggest. on the other hand, donald trump's lawyer was pointing out this has some forces. the president does have to have some latitude of movement, latitude of operation, otherwise a constant cycle of people going after the opponents once they are out of office. >> t expectation is it would go all the way to the supreme court. does the supreme court have to take it up? it takes up a very tosh -- tiny portion of them. it has never been adjudicated on the constitutional position within the procution of a

president in this way, because no former president ever been charged with crimes. we are in uncharted territory. i think the idea that they would ignore it is unlikely. that introduces all sorts of delays. you said in your introduction donald trump had swapped the campaign trail for the courtroom. i'm not sure there is that big a distinction between the two things. because this is part of the strategy, a delay in the legal position, an argument that this is about his opponents weaponizing, persecuting rather than prosecuting him. as you rightly said, the money he raises off of these is enormous. when he was arraigned in new york and georgia, he raised $1 million in the following 24 hours in each case. it is of fundamental importance

to the way the executive branch is seen, but to the calendar, as well. because what we don't know until they come back and give us their ruling is whether the trial will go ahead as is slated to do in the beginning of march. >> i think that looks very tight, to be honest. this appeals court and this d.c. circuit has been working very fast on this case. it may come back weekly with its decision. whether the supreme court acts as fast, we will see. but i think march 4 is looking unlikely. it is worth saying if he gets pushed later in the year, it becomes more of a general election issue. donald trump could lose the case, can go to trial on the charges brought by the special counsel to overturn the election. could get convicted, could get jail time after an appeal, perhaps.

and could still get elected president. so this is not necessarily an impediment to him getting a second term in the white house. he could end up pardoning himself. that is the other quite unknown. >> thank you very much, let's get some legal expertise from the former federal prosecutor, jerry marino. let's dive into this about some examples set out by the justices. the judge asked his attorney this afternoon whether a president could sell military secrets to the enemy. could a president order seal team six to assassinate a political rival? the answer that came back was he would have to be speedily impeached and convicted. he did not seem to have an effective response whether he could be criminally convicted without that impeachment. what is your view? facts i'm certainly not donald trump's lawyer, but if i were, i would point out the supreme court has held in civil cases

that presidents have absolute immunity from being sued, but only for official acts. basically carrying out their powers of the presidency. i would make the same argument here, it may or may not work. i would say ordering assassinations, taking bribes, those are personal actions. no one is saying you should be immune from prosecution for those. if i were donald trump's lawyers, i would say i felt in good faith i was protecting the presidency, that i was correcting a wrong, and i was acting in my official capacity, and i should be immune from both civil and criminal prosecution. i'm not saying it will work, i think it will not work. but that is the argument i would respond to with respect to the allegations made in court. >> the special counsel's office said it would be scary if it could not prosecute cases, if there was no criminal mechanism

to stop future presidents from usurping the vote and remaining in power. let's face it, were it not for the advice of white house counsel, donald trump may have well done that. >> i can see how an international audience can scratch their heads and say how could america not possibly have workedut these issues in the last 200 years. the response would be we've never had a donald trump in 200 years. no president or former president has been charged with a crime. so it is something we have to grapple with and get to the bottom of this. i would say like most legal things, you go to the original text, the text of the constitution. the constitution permits for a president to be impeached and removed. then it says then subject to indictment trial and prosecution. i would say that contemplates a president out of office can be prosecuted for crimes committed

while in office. i don't think it requires impeachment to come first. so i think that is the beginning and the end, i think donald trump will lose in circuit court unanimously. and if it goes to the supreme court, as i think it will, most likely he loses as well. >> in terms of the impeachment, one final point, when mitch mcconnell, the most senior republican in the senate was asked what he did not vote in favor of impeachment in the second impeachment, he said "because we have a criminal justice system, civil litigation, and former's are not immu from being held accountable by either one. in his view, this argument a president can only be impeached and crimally charged is not hold any weight. >> he may or may not be eating his words, he may not have realized how prissy and those words were when he said them. but it may be a common thought by anyone. in looking ahow the system

works, broad immunity for criminal prosecution doesn't make sense. it is a very uphill battle for donald trump. >> a quick one on the ruling itself, how quickly will it come? there is an issue of the supreme court, whether the court case in the lower court can continue while that appeal is pending. how do you see that? >> i think the immediate appeal comes within a few weeks. the supreme court, no one knows how long they will take to take the case. it could be a while before they do and hear arguments at issue a decision. as far as trial court, that should cease right now. it should stop in its tracks whil these appeals make their way through the courts. >> john moreno, thank you for the expertise. a.j. marino, former federal prosecutor. around the world and across the u.k., this is bbc news. taking a quick look at the stories making headlines.

retail sales increased by just 1.7% across the u.k. in december. significantly lower than the 6.9% in 2022. british retail consortium said shoppers held back on festive spending due to lack of confidence in the economy. the group warned shoppers and retailers have a challenging year ahead. admiral says pothole related claims sort last year. customers made 40% more claims from pothole damage in 2023 at an average cost of over 3000 pounds per claim. higher tech vehicles in the general rise in the price of repairs is thought to be behind the spike. a double-decker bus in kerr cut he lost control yesterday amid freezing rain, sending it crashing before coming to a stop against a garden wall. on its way to a local primary school. no passengers were on board and no one was injured.

you are live with bbc news. the former post office boss said she will hand back her cbe with immediate effect. the fallout of the horizon i.t. scandal, he said she was truly sorry for the devastation caused by some postmasters in their family. they were torn apart by being wrongly accused or wrongly processed you did -- prosecuted as a result. the justice secretary said alex jones for the government is acting unless a new two cross convictions of some postmasters caught up in this scandal. >> it was an insult which added to their injury. a moment depicted in the recent drama about the post office scandal. >> services to the post office. >> it was very different as she

caved to mounting public pressure to hand back the honor. she had been chief executive of the post office from 2012 to 2019. a time when serious issues emerged about the horizon software. in her statement, she said i have lessons and i can affirm i can return my cbe with immediate effect. i' truly sorry for the devastation caused to the sub postmasters and their families whose lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the horizon system. >> it must be a bug, it must be a computer. >> his story was one of those featured in the drama series. he went bankrupt after being falsely accused of stealing 25,000 pounds. what does he make of the decision? >> it was a kick in the teeth back then. now it is full-circle. we've gone to a point where it is acceptable the moral decision to hand it back is the right

decision. >> the renewed publicity may dealing with hundreds of wrongful convictions a priority for mp's. >> we can do something good mr. speaker if the justice secretary will bring a bill to quash all 800 immediately. >> the suggestion is receiving active consideration, i expect further announcement shortly. >> in normal circumstances, it would be almost unthinkable for parliament to get involved in the crushing, if criminal convictions. it would be seen at a son attack on the independence of the courts. ministers accept this is an unprecedented situation. that is why they are considering such a radical move. >> in 2021, there were joyful scenes when the court of appeal cleared 39 former postmasters and mistresses who had been wrongly convicted. hundreds more hope they will be able to celebrate soon. nikki young, bbc news. >> for years, the post office had denied remote access to

branch accounts was possible. in 2015, in written evidence, the company said there was no functionality in horizon for either a branch post office or to edit, manipulate, or remove transaction data once it had been recorded in a branch's accounts. but that was not true. the post office only admitted it was possible when it was left with no choice during a high court case in 2019. michael rabkin, formerly the union rep, visited the office back in 2012. he was amazed to discover the access the team had. >> my chaperone started to alter the figures in branch of an office. i wish to this day i had recorded which office it was. i saw what i saw, i made the, if it was in real-time. he said yes, i said are you

sure. he said yes, i will alter the figures to prove we can do this. i sent to him for your information, as a federation representative, we have always been of the opinion you cannot in any way, shape, or form access the postmasters accounts. we said where do we go from here? we said we will alter the figures back to where they were. and i was promptly escorted upstairs with a look of realization of i put my foot in it. not from my point of view, but my chaperone's. they ushered me out of the building as quickly as possible. the staff used third line access to get data on the system when it might have been corrupted in some way. from a legal standpoint, that access by staff causing to question accusations that unexplained losses could only be caused by sub postmasters error or theft.

in henderson, work for the investigative site appointed in 2012, he's with us. good to see you. how early did you know fujitsu had remote access to the sub postmasters terminals? i visited the head office in september 2012 and met with their senior technical person. in the course of that meeting, he was open about what they were doing, the capabilities and day they operated. he told me they routinely had remote access to advanced terminals, and they would often do that without specific consent or kwledge of individual sub postmasters. if they were remotely accessing branch systems, they would have to be relied on to be trustworthy to be following company protocol. as far as you are aware from what you could see, was there any policing of activity?

very limited. they had a duacontrol function, which meant two people had to authorize the excess. but there was no logging of the actual actions undertaken. in light of that, i felt the reliability from the sub postmaster perspective was potentially in doubt, and would be looking at unsafe convictions . did they have a mind hiding the bugs in the system? >> i'm aware that they disclosed some of those bugs and defects to the post office ss i got involved, really in a few weeks. they were disclosing in writing to the post office what they had identified. they were obviously correcting them. the first disclose that they made, i think he said it took 12 months to identify the problems

and fix it. so for 12 months, errors were occurring in a number. i say most of the time, it was working well. it was only a minority of some transactions where there were problems. >> but the suggestion is the postmasters, mistresses, were having to pay for things they were not responsible for. is there any evidence you saw that was suggest losses were being distributed or hidden among accounts fujitsu had access to? >> it raises a question of what happened to those losses, those made good by individual sub postmasters. it is clear the post office took some of those payments from the account. so the post office is benefiting. it is not entirely clear what the impact on the totality of the transactions was. >> are you surprised a company

worth 58 billion pounds have not commented in lht of what has happened? and from what you saw, do you think they should be in charge or able to bid for future public sector accounts? >> bear in mind the size of horizon. when we were looking at this, the second in 2012. we were told it was the largest nonmilitary i.t. project in the whole of europe. there is clearly a limited number of organizations that can deliver that functionality. fujitsu is one of them. it might be another one. i'm not surprised there was a limited amount of time of choice in terms of potential suppliers. >> i suppose from a defense lawyer's perspective, the very existence of third line access, which we now know all about,

calls into question the integrity of the system and would be important in any -- but it seems to me now that we know more about the story that it was not revealed until it was far too late for people. >> that was also my understanding. certainly after september 22, the second site was in no doubt, there were prosecutions that had taken place that were potentially unreliable because of the lack of the trail and the fact other people unbeknown to postmasters in their branches were potentially accessing the data. also bear in mind, we never found out what was happening to the back office database. they admitted directly accessing terminals. but they also had the potential to act as the backend database. and we don't know what was going on there. >> so you see mp's responding

urgently to the outcry of those that have come about as a part of the drama. how early did you alert them to the findings they had uncovered? >> it is our first reporting in 2013. and we continue doing some limited sort of work until 2015. we issued a number of reports. it was clear to us the integrity was in doubt because of the operation of fujitsu. >> thank you very much for coming on the program. let me read you a statement since we have been talking about them. they told us inquiry reinforced the impact of families and fujitsu has apologized for its role in their suffering. they said they are fully committed to supporting the inquiry to understand what happened and learn from it. they say out of respect for the

inquiry and its processes, it would be inappropriate for them to comment further at this time. let me bring you a piece of breaking news from ecuador. we have been learning armed men have burst into a studio of public television station in the port city. taking hostages and several journalists and staff members as well hostage. live footage of the attackers wearing rifles and grenades forcing the crew onto the ground. we are trying to locate them and we will bring them to u.s. or as we have them. it would seem that they are on-site. there is a real power struggle ongoing in ecuador. we will talk about it later. there were riots in many of the prisons on monday. and it seems the new president, who was only sworn in in

november, is in an open fight with the drug cartels of that country. they are pushing back quite stiffly with a number of incidents now questioning the safety of the situation in ecuador. we will bring you more news, it is a developing story. i think one that will be of concern to people across that region. stay with us, plenty more to come. we will talk about the situation in israel and some important meetin. narrator: funding for this presentation of this program is provided by... narrator: financial services firm, raymond james. man: bdo. accountants and advisors. narrator: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. and by judy and peter blum kovler foundation; pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs. ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ narrator: funding for this presentationf this program is provided by... narrator: pediatric surgeon. volunteer. topiary artist. a raymond james financial advisor tailors advice to help you live your life. life well planned.