amna: good evening. i'm amna nawaz. geoff bennett is away. on the "newshour" tonight, israelis celebrate passover as

of thousands remain displaced and the war with hamas rages on. as college protests against israel's war in gaza spread, a look at they compare to demonstrations of the past. and, a new investigation reveals how some of the seafood that ends up on our plates is produced by the forced labor of north koreans. >> the globalized world we live in and the way that seafood in particular largely routes through china means that many, if not most brands in the u.s. are tainted by this. ♪ >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. and friends of the newshour, including jim and nancy, and the robert and virginia schiller foundation. the judy and peter bloom

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of these individuals and institutions. and friends of the newshour. this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting, and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. amna: welcome to the "newshour." egypt has sent a high-level delegation to israel tonight, hoping to revive talks for a hostage deal and cease-fire with hamas. but, cairo also warned against an israeli assault on the southern gaza city of rafah along the border with egypt. much of gaza has already been reduced to a wasteland with u.n. officials estimating 37 million tons of debris to be removed.

they said today, the clean-up operation will be a mammoth job. >> with 100 trucks, we're talking about 14 years of work with 100 trucks. so, that's based on that figure. 14 years to remove with approximately 750,000 work days, person work days to remove the debris. so, significant numbers when it comes to debris. amna: the u.n. said roughly 65% of the buildings destroyed in gaza have been residential ones. the u.s. military today announced a new weapons package to re-arm ukraine's air defenses. it includes more patriot missiles, but not the additional patriot batteries that ukraine had wanted. still, in washington, defense secretary lloyd austin said he believes this package along with other weapons will meet ukraine's needs. >> they need other types of systems and interceptors as well. and so, i would caution us all in terms of making the patriot the silver bullet.

i would say that it's going to be the integrated air and missile defenses, as we've said so many times before, that really turns the tide. amna: the new weapons package will cost some $6 billion. it's part of $61 billion in military aid that congress approved after months of deadlock. meanwhile, another member of the biden cabinet, secretary of state antony blinken, warned chinese president xi jinping today against supporting russia's war in ukraine. the two men met in beijing. blinken said he told xi that china must stop supplying russia with critical war materiel or the u.s. will act. he did not elaborate, but he did acknowledge progress in other areas. >> we are committed to maintaining and strengthening the lines of communication between us so that we can avoid any miscommunications, any misconceptions, any miscalculations, and we are committed to responsibly managing the relationship.

amna: for his part, xi said china and the u.s. must seek common ground rather than engage in what he called vicious competition. britain's king charles will return to public duties next week after a three-month break for cancer treatment. buckingham palace said today that doctors are very encouraged by his progress so far. the palace has not said what kind of cancer charles has. here at home, the biden administration has again delayed a ban on menthol cigarettes. xavier becerra, the secretary of health and human services, announced it today. he said, "it's clear that there are still more conversations to have, and that will take significantly more time." the ban could have angered black voters since 80% of black smokers use menthol cigarettes. u.s. poultry producers will have to cut salmonella bacteria in some chicken products to very low levels to prevent food poisoning. a final agriculture department regulation issued today applies to frozen breaded and stuffed

raw chicken. it takes effect next year. salmonella poisoning causes roughly 420 deaths and 1.3 million infections annually in the u.s. the national highway traffic safety administration is investigating whether last year's tesla recall went far enough. the software update aimed to keep drivers alert while using the auto-pilot feature, but there've been more crashes since then. today, the agency said the auto-pilot feature "may lead drivers to believe that the automation has greater capabilities than it does." and on wall street, strong earnings at microsoft and alphabet pushed the stock market higher. the dow jones industrial average gained 153 points to close at 38,239. the nasdaq rose 316 points. the s%p 500 added 51. still to come on the "newshour," the connection between forced north korean labor and the seafood that ends up on american plates.

david brooks and jonathan capehart weigh in on the week's political headlines. musician jon bon jovi on the new docuseries capturing the highs and lows of his grammy award-winning band's four decades together. >> this is the pbs newshour from weta studios in washington, and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. amna: this week, jews around the world are observing passover, the festival of liberation, that marks the historic exodus from ancient egypt. but this year, joy is tempered with loss and trauma. more than 160,000 israelis will mark the holiday, while displaced from their homes. still, others have empty chairs at the dinner table. their loved ones still held captive by hamas. ali rogin has more. ali: in the rugged hills of northern israel, metula's mayor

patrols his town where now, no one lives. >> this is lebanon. ali: lebanon is so close, that this border town of 2000 had to be evacuated under government orders. david azuli moves around in a golf cart. he says it's faster to escape when the rockets crash. >> this is a synagogue. ali: for azuli, his town is nothing of what it once was, especially now at passover. >> it's very sad. it shouldn't be this way. it's very apocalyptic. ali: since october 7, israel's northern border with lebanon is now an undeclared second frontline. hezbollah fires rockets and missiles weekly into metula. nearly a quarter of metula's 640 homes have been damaged. and only a handful of civilians like david chose to stay behind, carrying an automatic rifle always. >> this year, we are not going to celebrate passover. it's very hard to celebrate when your family and your town is not with you. ali: his office is now in a bomb shelter.

he says none of this is normal. >> every mayor needs to represent and take care of his citizens. a place that's alive, that has places to work. children in school and daycare. and here, there is nothing. >> no family, no work, no nothing, no personal life. we've come back to the times that we've been in the military. that's what we're doing. defending our home. ali: another resident, david in combat gear, helps guard the entrance to metula. >> i'm not going to be with my family. my family is doing passover far away from here. i am now going to do passover with our new family, all of the guys that lives in metula and decided to stay here and defend our homes and our village. ali: many families from metula have fled just 40 miles to the south to tiberias. an ancient city from biblical times on the edge of the sea of galilee, where scripture says jesus walked on water. today, it's a haven for those displaced by war.

the sofia hotel is a home away from home for such families, like rabbi israel pachter and wife sara. they left metula with their 11 children. they struggle away from home. they say they'll overcome. >> part of the winning is keeping our morality up. and this is what we are trying to do. ali: at the seder dinner, rabbi pachter tries to keep the passover spirit high with traditional songs. the table is set with special delicacies. and the room is peopled with a community that's shaken, but resilient. >> you see the people trying to be happy, to do our best to sit together, to talk, to sing. not to be all the time sad, because if we'll be sad, it's the winning of our enemy. ali: that's sara's granddaughter. and it is that childhood joy she wants to protect. >> i don't want my kids to be depressed. i don't want my kids to feel that it's the end of the world. no, we're strong. ali: but even this festive dinner is not without despair.

there were sunglasses at each table to remind them of how so many of their countrymen, women, and children are kept in darkness now for more than 200 days. dozens of israeli families still wait for their loved ones held captive by hamas. >> every passover, i buy myself a new dress and new shoes. and this year, i couldn't buy it. i felt how can i buy a new dress, new shoes, when there's hostages. for me, it's very hard because i think about the mothers of the hostages. what hell they go through. i feel like all the world should get up and scream and get those hostages out. it breaks my heart. ali: that pain during passover has for 22 years been the air breathed in netanya, here 20 miles north of tel aviv. in 2002, this hotel was the target of the deadliest attack on israel by hamas during the second intifada. a suicide bomber, disguised as a woman, stormed into a seder dinner, killing 30 and injuring 140. >> what we get at the park hotel

before 22 years, it's like the 9/11 in america. and what we get now in october 7, it is much more, much more. ali: rina hamani's husband, ami, was the hotel's duty manager and among those killed while trying to stop the bomber. >> my husband and all our children. ali: hamani had to raise their six children, all boys, by herself. she was also the manager of the hotel and had to keep it running. every passover is a grim reminder of her loss. given what she suffered at the hands of hamas, october 7 did not surprise her. >> we know exactly that hamas wants to kill us. they don't want us to be in israel. i have no illusions that they will want peace someday because

22 years before, my husband has been killed. i think that before and i think that now the same, they want to kill us. ali: this passover, as she has for the past two decades, rina relies on her family to manage her grief. >> americans have to understand that we have to finish with hamas. we can't live with them. the palestinians has to change hamas. ali: the rituals of passover this year in israel are in many ways the same, steeped in tradition as always. from the lighting of candles to reading the story of the exodus from ancient egypt. but, those rituals are also forever changed. now, there is also a prayer for the hostages in gaza. and a resolve that a passover like this will not come again. for the "pbs newshour," i'm ali rogin.

amna: one of the biggest developments of this week has been the expansion of college protests and encampments. encampments continue to pop up, including today at the university of north carolina. meanwhile, protesters at columbia say they can"t reach an agreement with the school and inted to keep theirs going indefinitely. hundreds of students have been arrested, and charges have been brought against some students as well during clashes. >> overnight, more violent clashes with between pro-palestinian protesters and police, this time at ohio state university. officers moved to disperse a crowd after an hours long demonstration, citing rules banning overnight events. more than a dozen people were arrested. the latest wave of protests and encampments follow

demonstrations at columbia university last week. similar scenes have popped up at scores of other colleges over the last several days and have led to hundreds of arrests. video from emory university yesterday shows officers pinning a protester to the ground and tasting him. some damage traders are calling other universities to cut financial ties with israel. >> we came together to make demands on the university to the vest the endowment from corporations that profit off israeli genocide. to disclose where our money is invested in the first place. >> while others want to bring attention to the war in gaza. >> we want to be visible. the university should do something about the genocide. >> five minutes to leave the premises. >> many say today's demonstrations echo college protest movements of the past, including against the vietnam war. >> what people are trying to tell the united states, the american people is the country should not function while this

war is going on. >> that includes a historic demonstration at columbia university itself in 1968. students occupied campus buildings, the many of the university cut ties with a think tank involved in pentagon weapons research. it was met with a heavy police response. other vietnam war protests in the 1960's and 1970's led to clashes with authorities and mass arrests, but over time, they helped to shift public opinion leading up to the eventual u.s. withdrawal. in the 1980's, a similar movement popped up at universities nationwide, calling for divestment from south africa to end apartheid. today, some students say they are taking lessons from those protests. >> our demands are financial divestment. that is a demand dating back to the anti-apartheid divestment movement. >> as the school year comes to a close, there's no sign yet that this wave of protests will end

before classes let out. amna: as protests of israel's war in gaza spread to campuses across the country, some see parallels between today's demonstrations and college protests in the past. steven mintz is a professor of history at the university of texas at austin. and angus johnston is a professor and historian of american student culture at the city university of new york. welcome to you both. professor johnston, let's start with what the protesters are calling for. what is their focus? what do they want as a result of these demonstrations? >> it varies campus by campus but primarily what we are looking at is they are looking for divestment of the university's financial relationships with israeli companies. a disentanglement of the universities from relationships with the israeli government or military. and transparency as to the nature of those relationships. amna: what do you make of the demands as professor johnston

laid them out? do you think that is something colleges can achieve? >> i think they are very unlikely to be achieved. the protests of the 1960's, it was possible to achieve some kind of accommodation. first of all, one of the demands, an end to the military draft, received widespread support throughout society. and richard nixon's administration would make that happen. on campuses themselves, there were some practical goals, like studies programs, women's studies programs, coeducation at the elite private universities. an end to local regulations. there was a lot of ground for accommodation and compromise, and i don't see that much right now. amna: what do you make of that? >> i think the easiest, simplest

demand they are making is a demand for transparency with the university's relationship with israeli institutions. i think that is something that is certainly winnable on a lot of campuses. i think in a lot of ways, the anti-apartheid movement of the 1970's and 1980's is a much better analog than the mass student movement of the late 1960's and subways. i think it is a board to rivera that the case -- it is important to remember that in the case of the anti-apartheid movement, the call began in the 1970's. it was a very long and slow process, by which students were adjusting people's views of the crisis itself. amna: what do you make of that, professor mintz? could these protests start what could be a long chain of changing people's minds when it comes to how they see these issues? >> the context today is very different than the 1960's and

1970's when higher education was growing and the federal and state investments in higher education were increasing. today, the situation of american higher education is extremely precarious. public support has diminished. funding is hotly debated in many of the states. there are threats and some state legislators -- in some state legislatures to tax endowments, university property, university income. donations to many of the leading universities have declined. this is a very treacherous moment, especially for the most well endowed and highly selective institutions. amna: professor johnston, do you agree with that? is there a chance the protesters run the risk of losing support the longer these protests go on because of this scenario? >> i think it is important to

note that the protests themselves so far have largely been pretty moderate in their tactics. we are not seeing as we did in the 1960's rioting, rocks being thrown at police, any any buildings being burned down. the protests themselves have been pretty moderate. the thing that is inflaming the situation right now, in terms of their tactics. the thing that is inflaming the situation right now is bringing in the cops and using the police not only to engage in mass arrests against students, but in arresting and in some cases beating and abusing faculty as well. i think it is important to point out there are number of campuses that which the university has decided to take a hands-off approach to these in chemnitz -- these encampments. they have been proceeding with very little issue and very little drama. amna: what about that? because we have seen some pretty

heavy-handed tactics in some cases. on your campus, the university of texas at austin, dozens of people were arrested. police in riot gear were called in to disperse the crowd. is that necessary? >> right now, we have many brand-new presidents, unseasoned senior administrators making decisions. one suspects that administrators who are more knowledgeable about past history, have more experience dealing with students, have better rapport with their student populations, that this would be playing out extremely differently. what we need to see on the part of senior administrators is a real willingness to step out of their offices, communicate with the students, and try to achieve some kind of accommodation. amna: are you saying you don't believe the police should have been called in and some of the

circumstances? >> absolutely not. the lesson of history could not be clearer. that this only escalates the situation. it worsens the situation and it results in a degree of alienation that is very difficult to overcome. amna: given all that, professor mintz, i will ask you both, where do we go from here? how do you see this unfolding in the weeks ahead? >> i think the conversation needs to be made more productive. in this country, if you want political change, you build coalitions. what i am not seeing on campus right now is an effort to have effective protests that will bring people together. when people hear anti-american sentiments, they are radically turned off. the demonstrators in my view

should be calling for peace, for the release of the hostages, and an american foreign policy that will really result in a two state solution. amna: professor johnston, i will give you the last word. >> i am heartened by the fact that despite what professor mintz has said, a lot of faculty has been turning up in support of the students. some of them turning out in support of the students' goals, but others coming out for the right of students' right to protest without being abused by cops. we are seeing the development of a new coalition on campus and i am very heartened by that. i hope admit is traders take heed of that and do their bit to de-escalate the situation as well. amna: that is professor angus johnston from the city university of new york, and professor steven mintz from the university of texas at austin. thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you.

amna: in our interconnected, globalized economy, goods produced in one nation end up on shelves and in stores halfway around the world. and while consumers hope there's some way to protect the workers who make the products we buy, some american companies have recently come under scrutiny for alleged links to forced labor. william brangham speaks with the journalist behind a new investigation documenting the forced labor behind chinese seafood that ends up on american plates. william: in recent years, americans have been eating increasing amounts of seafood. it is considered one of the healthier sources of protein but a series of new investigations about the outlaw ocean project reveals that the way a lot of that seafood ends up in our stores and on our plates comes at an extraordinary human cost. specifically, workers from north korea who are forced to work in chinese factories. here's an excerpt about lolo

of outlaw ocean's recent -- >> 2023 was a highly successful year for this seafood processing company based in china which opened a large plant edit compound in this chinese city that sits along the north korean border. the company doubled the amount of squid it exported to the united states. in celebration of its success, it threw a huge party at its annual meeting with dancers, fireworks, and a high-tech light show. the problem though is that a crucial reason for their success was its widespread use of cheap north korean labor. it was part of a much bigger state run partnership between china and north korea, where workers are selected by the north korean government and exported across the border to work in chinese seafood plants. this is a huge problem, because

it violates very clear and strict u.n. sanctions and u.s. law prohibiting the use of north korean workers in this very fashion. william: jordi b tao is the reporter you just asked joining me now -- jordi b tao is the reporter you just heard -- joining me now is the reporter you just heard. this incredibly harrowing investigation looks at the series of these chinese seafood plants in the city you just mentioned near the north korean border where tens of thousands of north korean workers. explain to us how did those workers get from north korea into china. >> this is a long-running program between china and north korea. the two governments coordinate the selection of workers for the industries and then transfer them into the country usually under a two-year contract where they stay in china, most often at locked down plants where they are not allowed to leave. the north koreans seek these

jobs because they typically pay much better than what they can earn in north korea. there's a rigorous selection process in north korea for those who get to go. they are mostly women and the selection process by the north korean government usually means they don't choose people that will defect. william: this is labor for chinese factories. what is the upside for north korea? >> north korea, because of the sanctions, is desperate for capital, for money. so, this is a multibillion-dollar moneymaking business where they send their workers abroad and that foreign capital is a strong capital, chinese capital that they can use to buy weapons or oil or consumer goods. william: let's look at another excerpt about what the conditions are like in some of those factories. >> workers often have to sign two or three year contracts after they arrive in china. managers confiscate their passports.

if workers attempt to escape or complain to people outside the plant, their families at home could face reprisals from the government. the work itself is relentless. shifts at the seafood plants run 14 to 16 hours. workers receive up to one day off per month and few, if any holidays or sick days. in seafood plants, the women sleep in bunk beds in locked dormitories, sometimes with 30 people to a room. workers are permitted from tuning into local tv or radio, and from leaving factory grounds. they describe lowliness, violence, and a crushing sense of captivity. william: your report documents even worse conditions. violence, sexual abuse, particularly among the women you are talking about. can you describe a little bit about how their lives are like? >> this is a brutal type of work. long hours in tight quarters, relentless pace. they are captive on facilities that are run by men.

this was one of the big revelations, the extent of sexual violence against the with it, quite especially when work stopped because of covid. there was no work and no income, and therefore, the women were pressured into prostitution. william: i think a lot of american consumers would be horrified to think that the conditions under which food they might be eating or buying of the store come out of conditions like this. how does that end up here? which retailers are we talking about? >> unfortunately, it is most retailers, most of the large ones. this investigation that looked at the use of north korean labor found some of the seafood was ending up routing through plants that are supplying, which mcdonald's supplies. cisco also is getting seafood from these plants. then, the major grocery store

chains, giant, walmart also. the globalized world we live in and the way that seafood in particular largely wraps through china means that many, if not most brands in the u.s. are tainted by this. william: when you approach these companies and say here is what we are documented coming out of china and the conditions there, what do they say in response? >> most stonewall us and don't answer questions. some engagement say we are taking it seriously, we will get back to you. still, others say we have taken this seriously. we have severed ties with this plant in particular. the overall underlying issue is the audits, the inspectors that they are supposed to be doing to check for these issues are not working. this auditing market which sends inspectors into plants, whether it is soccer balls, iphones or seafood around the world, has big problems, big challenges. often, they are not doing unannounced visits. they are doing announced visits

so they tell the plant when they are coming. that is a flaw. the other big flaw is china is a distinct environment and there are certain things not allowed in china. if you want to stay in the country, whether you are a journalism organization or seafood company, there are certain no-go topics and he was rights -- human rights are not topics you could bring up on monday and still expect to be in the country on wednesday. william: the project is called the outlaw ocean project. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. amna: legal cases involving former president trump and some of his closest associates play out in state courts, the supreme court, and the court of public opinion. meanwhile, as foreign aid begins to arrive in ukraine and the middle east, protests boil over on campuses across the u.s.

for more on a consequential week overseas and here at home, we turn to the analysis of brooks and capehart. that's "new york times" columnist david brooks, and jonathan capehart, associate editor for "the washington post." big week surrounding former president trump. let's start with the supreme court. the justices argue about trump's potential community. what did you take away from the arguments? >> a lot of commentary on the fact that the more conservative justices did not seem interested in donald trump. they were interested in the precedent. i find it intellectually interesting, but it was a little weird that trump was barely mentioned in some cases. normally, you would say a president is not above the law, of course. but, if you look at democracies in decline, then it is a pattern that people in office use their power to throw in jail the

people who are in office before them of the opposing party. so, we are in a democracy in decline. so, it does make you think, well, if the republicans were to try to indict mayorkas and impeach him, maybe there should be some protections against that. i don't know where you would draw the line between those presidential actions which are immune to indictments and those that are not. in a democracy in decline, you have to think about building more guardrails so we don't start criminalizing. jonathan: the first thing we can do as an american electorate is no longer elect someone who would crash through the guardrails, and electing other people who would enable that person to crash to the guardrails. i agree with david. the idea that the supreme court could possibly handout a ruling that would force the judge to go through the counts and figure out whether private -- what are private acts and official acts

to determine whether the former president is immune is insane. this country is almost 250 years old, if my math is right. pulling until the election of donald trump have we ever had to even contemplate this question. until we stop electing chief executives who lack this shame gene, yeah, maybe we will have to answer this question. but, the fact that we are here is, it is really disturbing. and listening to the questioning back and forth maybe wonder whether the supreme court, do they really want to squander their public standing such head as it is -- as it is that everyone will look at and say what are you doing? amna: do you think we will get a clear answer from them of this? jonathan: i don't think so. david: i don't think so either. amna: moving on then. there are a few other cases i

want to get your takes on as well because they are very different. they both involve former president trump. in new york, there's a hush money trial that is continuing related to the payment he made to an adult actress in 2016. we are testimony from a tabloid publisher named david pecker confirming that he did bury stories that could have harmed then-candidate trump. in there was oda, two of his -- in arizona, two of his closest advisors problem 18 people indicted in the fake electors scehem 20 -- scheme to help overturn trump's 2020 loss. did either of those developments change landscape? david: i don't think they have changed the landscape for him. i was morbidly fascinated by the tabloid publisher's testimony. that is not the way we do testimony. paying people hush money to bury stories, it is like a moral netherworld that trump entered.

i was once in the 1980's invited to a party, the opening of trump plaza. i look around the room, it is all the people you think are corrupt. a buddy of mine goes up to me and says not indicted, not invited. we are really entering a different layer of new york that i was used to. that is what we are confronting and have been for a bunch of years. amna: jonathan? jonathan: the testimony of david pecker was fascinating. i lived and worked in new york for 16 years. i worked at the daily news so the new york post was a competitor. i know this world. david pecker is not foreign to me. what he's talking about is not foreign to me, but i think for the larger public, to hear what really goes on, particularly with that kind of tabloid newspaper i think is fascinating. also, let's not forget, we are talking about a former president who is in court over hush-money

payments, who has been found liable for fraud and for sexual assault, who could it be in washington for the immunity hearing from when he was president. this guy is going to -- has been spending more time in court than on the campaign trail to run for reelection. i think what makes this week and this case so fascinating is that we are watching this guy be held accountable for at least a sliver of what he has allegedly done. amna: in the new york case, he is now violated the gag order a total of 15 times. jonathan: and counting. amna: is there any way for president trump to be reigned in on that front? david: i think his entire administration tried to do that for four years and it didn't work. jonathan: no. amna: i need to ask you about president biden because we should mention, often times when authorities don't want you to talk too much about something, it gets announced on a friday

afternoon. we did have an announcement. they are delaying their decision, their plans to ban menthol cigarettes. we know that is known for its appeal towards black smokers. 81% of black smokers smoke menthol cigarettes. this is something the fda has been pushing for years now. they failed to get it across the finish line. why do you think the biden administration decided to do this now? david: i hope it was out of a sense of some sense that adults can make up their own mind. i frankly had the reaction the way michael bloomberg in new york tried to ban the big gulp sodas. i have seen the studies on the menthol cigarettes. the fbi says a lot fewer people will smoke if we ban them. at some point, we are democracy where adults are to be treated like adults. everyone knows this stuff is really bad for you and people make their own decisions. amna: jonathan, there has been accusations that this is about

politics and it could alienate black voters that president biden needs. jonathan: cigarettes are addictive and menthol is particularly addictive. when you are talking about an addictive substance, an addictive product that has a disproportionate impact on african-americans, well, sorry, i look at the fda and say good for you. you should be doing this. folks should be forced to quit, meaning this is not good for you. this is about attempting to save your life. i maybe agree with you on michael bloomberg and the big gulp sodas. the first thing mike bloomberg did when he was mayor of new york that people started screaming about the nanny state was banding cigarettes in restaurants and out everyone loves him for it. if the biden administration is trying to play politics by dumping this announcement on a friday afternoon, fine,

elections are decided on the margins. but in the end, what the fda is proposing needs to be done. it is about saving lives. amna: the pro-palestinian protests, protesting israel's war conduct in gaza. they have spread very quickly. they are sustaining on campuses. should these be a warning side to the biden administration? david: i have been frustrated that people are making some distinctions here. i think most of the protesters are appalled by the horrors the palestinians are suffering and well motivated by compassion. there are some people that are probably hard left people, they get to have their views. there are a lot of people that are antisemitic and violet. you should not be able to say that scientists do not deserve to live. if you say that, they should be expelled. if somebody says something like go back to poland, or even a pro-palestinian or pro

israeli, go back to gaza. those people should be expelled. that is the distinction that should be made. the people are threatening the community by threatening violence, they are being expelled. you need to separate the bad actors from the people that are well motivated to save lives. as for the biden administration, i worry that chicago convention will look a lot like 1968. that will just be terrible for the biden administration. the president looks powerless. one final thing i found interesting. harvard does this survey what are young adults interested in? israel gaza is 15 out of 16. a lot of people i know are passionately on both sides of the issue, but most young voters are interested in inflation, crime, health care, the normal issues. it is aboard for us that are in educated circles not to generalize from our experience because a lot of people think about very different things. jonathan: i agree with you,

david. i think the discussion about what's happening in these protests is missing a lot of nuance. not everyone who is protesting is anti-semitic, is rooting for violence, or even causing the violence. they are there for legitimate reasons. i agree with david. if the college community is disrupting and saying racist, anti-semitic things, yes, they should be expelled. but we also should be mindful that who are these people who are saying these things? some might be members of the university or college community, but some could be from the outside. my big fear from the blm movement is folks from the outside causing violence and then the blame being hoisted upon the people that are legitimately protesting. that is my big concern when we talk about this latest national protest. amna: here is to nuance and facts. thank you to both of you for

bringing those to the table always. always good to see you. >> thanks. amna: few musical acts have enjoyed the success and long run of the legendary band bon jovi. and a revealing new documentary series premiering tonight on hulu tracks the highs and lows of the grammy award-winning band's four decades together. recently, geoff bennett spoke with front man jon bon jovi about "thank you, goodnight: the bon jovi story" for our arts and culture series, "canvas." geoff: jon bon jovi, welcome to the "newshour." >> thank you, geoff. happy to be here. geoff: it's great to have you here. this docuseries is a real, honest look at the band's triumphs, its setbacks. what has this experience been like, reliving your past and then considering what it all means for your future? >> it was emotional when we saw a rough cut.

because a lot of life was lived in these last 40 years. geoff: yeah. geoff: why share so much and why share it now? >> well, 40 is a milestone. even if it's only the first 40. 40 years is a long time to have been making music as we have. so, i wanted to mark this milestone. we were archiving everything that i didn't realize what a hoarder i have become. so, it made it easy for the storytelling and what it's about. this vocal surgery was not part of the the plan but this is a couple of years in the making, this film. so that just happened. and i'm not afraid to show emotion. it's just that, we typically had the platform for it. geoff: to have led one of the world's most successful bands, to have a 40-year run doing that, that doesn't happen by accident. what has it required of you? >> i love what i do, but it's hard work. it's like anything else, you know, it's your craft, but it's also your passion. and then, by being true to who and what you are, which was important early on and to remain true to that.

you evolve as a man and as a writer, and people come along for that ride. geoff: and you found success early in your early 20's. how were you able to grapple with megawatt fame so early in life? >> i can't tell you that i could write the book on it, but in truth, probably our upbringing where we were from, the time in which we were born, family. thband could close the door and say, do you believe what just happened? so a lot of a lot of that, you know, is living the life. geoff: you talk in the docuseries about one of your biggest musical influences, bruce springsteen. i didn't realize until watching this that you actually played with his band when you were in high school. >> he jumped up on stage with my band when i was in high school. geoff: well, that's even better. he played with your band when you were in high school. how has your relationship evolved since then? >> well, obviously it's something that i treasure. he is so many millions of people's hero. but growing up 25 miles away from that jersey shore scene where he made it famous and then

south side johnny followed up in those footsteps. those were guys that not only i could look up to who were 12 and 13 years older, but they made the impossible seem very possible because they were, in essence, right outside your window. and now our relationships, of course, are bonded for, you know, ever because we become very close. geoff: well, as i mentioned, this docuseries focuses on the band's setbacks. and you mentioned your vocal cord surgery. it was april of 2022. you're performing in nashville. you came off stage and realized you might not ever be able to perform live again. >> well, it's not that i couldn't. it was more of a decision that maybe i wouldn't. i tried everything i could. there was something happening, but a picture couldn't show it to you. when a singer has something like a nodule, it's in essence, a pimple on a vocal cord. you can see it visually. i wasn't having that when i was realizing that one of my vocal

cords was atrophying, and after a lot of holistic and praying and anything i could do, including going out on the road to try to beat it into shape. i come to the conclusion that i needed to find the right surgeon, and i did. geoff: and there is no bon jovi without you and your voice. what did that feel like to potentially have the thing that you love to do taken away from you? >> the truth is, i hadn't had to think about that because i've always been in the process of getting to the recovery. the new album is proof that the surgery has worked for me. now, the bar is getting back to that 2.5 hours a night, four nights a week. so, that's the process that i'm in now. geoff: the docuseries also features your former guitarist, richie sambora, who you describe as your perfect foil. what do you mean by that? >> well, everybody wants a right-hand man. if they're lucky enough, they have a friend like that, you know. and he had come to see me many years ago. he says, i need to be your guitar player. when we clicked and hit it off, you know, he became that perfect right-hand man.

and in 2013, he left the band. geoff: how big of an adjustment was it when he officially left? >> well, there was a big black hole on that side of the stage, for sure, but there was nothing that was going to hinder me from continuing to write records and go out there and sell out shows, you know, sorry to say it, but look at the marquee, you know. geoff: has he watched this docuseries? >> we watched it together. you know, and it was it was wonderfully emotional to be together, just the two of us watching it. geoff: what do you believe sets bon jovi apart from other bands? >> i don't know. i mean, if i did, i'd bottle it and sell it to somebody else, but i think it was the hard work, the joy of doing it. we persevered by writing songs that people could relate to, and i've been on this 40-year journey that people may have gotten off the ride along the way, but it's been honest and open, and so you can feel yourself in those shoes in different parts of your life. the way i've written about them in mine. geoff: yeah, well, one of those songs, "livin' on a prayer"

classic, one of the best rock melodies ever. but when you were writing it, you thought, i'm not so sure about this. maybe it's a song for a movie soundtrack. how did that song ultimately come to life? >> well, it evolved when we written it on that day. it was a very simple chord structure. the melody of the lyric was finished. we knew all of that. but it came to life when the band got in the room and we developed the bass line, and tico came in playing the drums and that's when it popped. that's when the key change happened at the end. tommy used to work on the docks. that's how we wrote it. ♪ with an acoustic guitar and a stand-up piano. there was no drum machines in those days. there was nothing like that. so i was like, yeah, it's good, it's good, it's good. geoff: yeah. did you know then that it could be as enduring as it is? >> in truth, geoff, it wasn't the first single on the album.

"you give love a bad name" was the first single because that sort of sounded like what was on the radio. what a hit song sounded like when we wrote that, when we were like, i think we got one here. "prayer" was so different, and it was the second single. and of course, you know, the billions of streams and all that stuff later. who knew? ♪ geoff: well, you've got a new album coming out in june, recorded in nashville. what does nashville lend to the bon jovi sound? >> i remember when i was a kid, my mom said, find your influences, influences. and when we were talking a little bit off camera, somebody said to me during the course of this promoter, what's the first music you remember hearing? and the thing that came to mind initially was beatles and gene autry. geoff: really? >> so, there was always a little bit of a country thing that i was aware of as a little boy, but it wasn't what drew me to music. what draws me to the city is i jokingly say, these are my people. it's a songwriter's community. every guy that's pumping gas is

a great songwriter, and there's still making a living doing it. geoff: you think you might tour again? >> i hope so. geoff: yeah. well, so do we. >> thank you. geoff: jon bon jovi, the new docuseries is "thank you, good night: the bon jovi story," streaming now on hulu and disney+. really great to talk with you. >> and you too, buddy. thank you. ♪ amna: later tonight on pbs, actor john lithgow goes back to school. in "art happens here with john lithgow," the author and humorist shares his passion for arts education, trying his hand at pottery, printmaking, dancing and singing. ♪ >> ♪ snowflakes, whispers ♪

♪ [applause] >> i choose to take that as a compliment. >> i have a question for you. does he need to use his falsetto for snowflake? >> when he first did it, he didn't use it. >> i think i dropped it the last few times. >> i believe it is like for everybody here, it is confidence. that you have the confidence because the confidence controls how you perform. >> and just what the heck, it is my voice, so i will sing in my voice. i don't think anybody will be throwing things at me. >> they better not. [laughter] amna: "art happens here with john lithgow" premieres tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern here on pbs. we sure to tune into washington

week with the atlantic tonight for a look at former president trump's turbulent week in court and the pro-palestinian protests erupting across the country. on "pbs news weekend," how ecuador went from a model of stability in south america to a hotbed of gang violence and turf wars. and that's the "newshour" for tonight. i'm amna nawaz. on behalf of the entire "newshour" team, thank you for joining us. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by -- >> it was like an a-ha moment. this is what i love doing. early-stage companies have this energy that energizes me. these are people that are trying to change the world. when i volunteer with women entrepreneurs, it is the same thing. i am helping people reach their dreams. i am thriving by helping others every day. people who know, know bdo. ♪

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♪ hello, everyone, and welcome to "amanpour & company." here's what's coming up. trump versus the law. will the supreme court agree to his claim of presidential immunity, as his new york trial