11/30/23 11/30/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> it is a shameful reflection on the people who use it. amy: henry kissinger has died at the age of 100. to many in the washington establishment, kissinger is hailed as one of the nation's

most influential and famous diplomats. but around the world -- from chile, east timor, bangladesh, and cambodia -- henry kissinger is remembered as a war criminal whose actions led to massacres, coups, and the deaths of millions. we will speak with the pulitzer prize-winning historian greg grandin, author of "kissinger's shadow: the long reach of america's most controversial statesman." >> kissinger's trajectory from cambodia, the secret campaign to bomb a country united states was not at war with to the state we are in now governed by national security state, is what i think is most instructive about kissinger's life and most important about him other than describing him as a war criminal -- which he has. amy: but first, as the truce in

gaza is extended for another day, we will speak to the executive director of doctors without borders avril benoît and human rights lawyer raji sourani , the director of the palestinian center for human rights. he has now left gaza. he will join us from cairo. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. israel has agreed to extend its truce with hamas for a seventh day to facilitate the exchange of captives. the extension was announced just minutes before it was set to expire on thursday morning, prolonging a reprieve for gaza's 2.3 million residents after 47 days of relentless attacks by israel spawned a massive humanitarian crisis. on wednesday, hamas released 16 hostages -- 10 israelis, four thai nationals, and two russian-israeli citizens.

in exchange, israel released another 30 palestinian women and child prisoners, many of them jailed indefinitely without charge under israel's administrative detention policy. on wednesday, hamas said its youngest hostage, 10-month-old israeli baby kfir bibas, was killed in an israeli bombing alongside his mother and four-year-old brother. if those deaths are confirmed, the hostages will join some 15,000 people killed by israel's assault on gaza since october 7. two-thirds of the dead are women and children. also on wednesday, it has discovered the decomposing remains of five premature palestinian babies left to die after israeli forces ordered medical staff to evacuate and blocked access to the intensive care unit at a pediatric hospital in north gaza. shocking footage filmed by the dubai based outlet shows the babies still attached to

ventilation and intravenous tubes as they lay lifeless in their hospital beds. rights goods are calling for international investigation. in the occupied west bank, israeli gunfire killed a 21-year-old palestinian man and wounded four others as they gathered outside ofer prison awaiting the release of palestinian prisoners. meanwhile, two palestinian children who were shot dead by israeli forces during a raid on the jenin refugee camp on wednesday have been identified. 15-year-old basil suleiman abu al-wafa died in a hospital after he was shot in the chest. and eight-year-old adam al-ghoul was shot in the head as he ran from israeli forces, in a killing that was captured on video. the palestinian red crescent society said israeli soldiers blocked medics from approaching the camp to tend to the wounded. israeli police say three people were killed and several others wounded thursday morning when a pair of palestinian gunmen opened fire at a bus stop on the outskirts of jerusalem.

the attackers were shot and killed by two off-duty soldiers and an armed civilian. meanwhile, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has pledged to resume israel's assault on the gaza strip once israel's ceasefire agreement with hamas expires. >> after completing this stage of the return of our hostages, will israel go back to fighting? my answer is yes. there's no situation in which we do not go back to fighting until the end. this is my policy. the entire cabinet is behind it. amy: netanyahu's comments came after israel's far-right national security minister itamar ben-gvir threatened to dissolve the coalition government led by netanyahu if israel halts its bombardment of gaza. here in new york city, hundreds of peaceful protesters led by a group of interfaith organizers gathered in midtown manhattan to demand an end to israel's assault on gaza and its

occupation of palestinian lands on the occasion of the annual rockefeller center christmas tree lighting. hordes of police officers were deployed to the event, as activists ultimately gathered in front of the nearby newscorp building to rally. this is nerdeen kiswani, an organizer with the group within our lifetime. >> we stand here on the day of international day of solidarity with the palestinian people, the entire municipality -- the entire municipality of bethlehem to call for immobilization, not celebration. amy: meanwhile, in washington, d.c., progressive congressmembers rashida tlaib, cori bush, and jamaal bowman joined a group of activists, politicians, and celebrities who were on day three of their hunger strike to demand a permanent ceasefire. this is congressmember tlaib speaking at their nightly white

house vigil. >> when this pause in the violence expires, all i keep thinking about is how many more lives? how many more lives will be enough? how many more children need to be killed? how many more families have to be torn apart? there is nothing humanitarian about giving innocent civilians a few days of rest before they are bombed again. amy: earlier in the day, house members voted nearly unanimously to pass a resolution equating anti-zionism with anti-semitism, a framing which has driven the backlash against anyone who is critical of the israeli government. only congressmember thomas massie voted against the measure. congressmember tlaib voted "present." employees and job seekers continue to report retaliatory action for speaking out against the conflict. georgetown law school graduate jinan chehade says she a had a job offer with prominent law firm foley & lardner rescinded over her support for palestinian rights on social media after she

was interrogated by the law firm's partners. >> they framed my advocacy for palestine supporting terrorism and i was singled out as one of the only visibly muslim women associates in the law from nationwide. today, i'm speaking and defines of the surge of attacks we have received against palestinians and their allies, from the murder of a six-year-old, the shooting of three palestinian students in vermont, severe attacks on employees and associates like myself who speak up for palestine. however, the more of us that speak up, the more power we have. today i am not only speaking up but i am fighting back and pursuing legal action. amy: palestine legal says it has received more than 700 requests for support from advocates for palestinian rights since october 7. that's triple the number the group reported for the entire year last year. former secretary of state henry kissinger, the architect of a highly militarized u.s. foreign policy under presidents nixon and ford, has died at the age of

100. in the late 1960's and 1970's, kissinger oversaw a massive expansion of the war in vietnam and the secret bombings of laos and cambodia where as many 150,000 civilians were killed. in latin america, kissinger supported a dictatorship that used torture and murder as tools of political repression from bolivia to argentina. he helped topple the democratically-elected government of salvador allende, ushering in 17 years of dictatorship under general augusto pinochet. in 1975, kissinger and president ford met with the indonesian dictator general suharto to give him the go-ahead to invade east timor, which led to the killing of a third of the timorese population. the pulitzer prize prize-winning author and historian greg grandin once estimated that kissinger's actions may have led to the deaths of up to 4 million people. after headlines, professor grandin will join us to discuss henry kissinger's life and legacy. the u.s. department of justice has charged an indian national with plotting to assassinate a

prominent sikh separatist leader living in new york city after federal agents allegedly thwarted a murder-for-hire plot. federal prosecutors in manhattan say 52-year-old nikhil gupta has been arrested in the czech republic, pending extradition to the united states after an unnamed indian government employee recruited him last may to carry out the assassination. gupta allegedly offered a $100,000 bounty to a hitman who turned out to be an undercover dea agent. the plot allegedly targeted gurpatwant singh pannun, a u.s. citizen, lawyer, and spokesperson for the organization sikhs for justice, which advocates for an independent state for sikhs in northern india. gupta's arrest comes just two months after canada's government said agents of india's government led by prime minister narendra modi were directly involved in the assassination of prominent canadian sikh

separatist leader hardeep singh nijjar in june. and x ceo elon musk lashed out during a "new york times" event wednesday when asked about recent advertiser boycotts over musk's reposting of anti-semitic content. >> so would try to blackmail me with advertising? go [bleep] yourself. go [bleep] yourself. is that clear? amy: over 100 brands have halted their ads on x, which stands to lose $75 million in ad sales by the end of the year. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. nermeen: and i'm nermeen shaikh. welcome to all of our listeners

and viewers from around the country and around the world. israel has agreed to extend its truce with hamas to facilitate the exchange of captives. it was announced just minutes before it was set to expire on thursday morning, prolonging a reprieve for gaza's 2.3 million residents after 47 days of relentless attacks by israel spawned a massive humanitarian crisis. on wednesday, hamas released 16 hostages. in exchange, israel released another 30 palestinian women and child prisoners. two children were shot in a raid on the jenin refugee camp. a 15-year-old basil suleiman abu al-wafa died in a hospital after he was shot in the chest. and eight-year-old adam al-ghoul was shot in the head as he ran from israeli forces, in a killing captured on video. the palestinian red crescent society said israeli soldiers blocked medics from approaching the camp to tend to the wounded.

and khan younis in the south of gaza, doctors without borders surgeon dr. hafez abukhussa described how his hospital is overwhelmed. >> the majority of patients, females and children. when i see a child, an innocent child injured -- this is a really heartbreaking situation. the lack of supplies.

amy: for more, we are joined by avril benoît, executive director of doctors without borders. welcome back to democracy now! if you can talk about what is happening right now in gaza? as we are broadcasting, u.s. secretary of state blinken is meeting with mahmoud abbas and he just met with netanyahu. there is a cease-fire -- not clear if it will be extended one more day minutes before the end of the cease-fire, it was announced it would continue. what have you learned about the devastation? >> thank you for having me. from the medical humanitarian perspective of what we have seen

from the beginning after the appalling attack on october 7, what has been a collective punishment of the people in gaza and that is why you see such a disproportionate number of civilians killed -- the devastation on the hospitals is near-complete. there are a few hospitals in the north that are really not much more than shelters right now with still medical personnel trying to stay with patients but they have no more equipment, no electricity, no water. it is very high risk evacuation route. we know from our own experience of our team that was stuck there with their families after having made the decision with the medical doctors to stay with some of the patients in the hospitals that they were subjected to crossfire. a couple of members of the evacuation group, family members were killed in that. vehicles were destroyed. the once we were intending to use to

evacuate the staff and families after they were treated from what seemed to be imminent risk of death that proved to be fatal in the end. what we're saying is this surge of patients in the south. as you just heard, hospitals from the beginning have been completely overwhelmed but now they have patients who really require much more complex medical care. ideally, medical evacuation in a safe way to a third country, for example, where they can receive the level of care that will save their lives and prevent further damage. another thing, because of the lack of antibiotics, medicine, wound dressing equipment, we have a very high risk of high numbers of people dying of infections. and that is something that should never happen under international humanitarian law. people should have access to medical care in a conflict like this.

and that is just not being guaranteed in terms of the way this war is because dr.. amy: have you heard about this report of the pediatric hospital in northern gaza and the premature babies, five of them, discover the remains of the babies, the reports were that they were left to die after israeli forces blocked access to the intensive care unit. >> i don't have the details on that but what we know is it was a harrowing decision for the medical staff. when order to evacuate, knowing sometimes you're only given a couple of hours, which is unacceptable, even in the context of this pause, this truce -- which we hope will become a cease-fire -- it is very complicated to transfer a patient that is in you vulnerable state in a machine that no longer has any electricity. as you probably know, the lack

of fuel has made it is near impossible to run ambulances. and because of the violence, all these checkpoints come it seems people are waiting for hours and hours. you can imagine people were transferred from an intensive care unit stuffed into inane billets because it is one of the -- into an ambulance because it is one of the only ones running, and then they are at the checkpoint and stop for hours. it is a very harrowing, high-risk kind of thing to organize. that is one of the reasons we are calling for this killing to stop, for there to be a proper cease-fire. furthermore, for there to be medical evacuation so people can receive the care they need in a safe way with the right to return if they so wish. and for there to be unconditional humanitarian aid allowed to enter because we know people are in places where the aid cannot reach and they cannot reach the hospitals. they don't feel it is safe so they are at risk of dying and

suffering lifelong consequences if they don't receive the medical care right away. nermeen: could you speak about during this pause, how much medical equipment, supplies, medicine as you are speaking about earlier, the acute shortage which many people have mentioned, how much medication is coming in? medication and equipment is coming in during this pause? >> the specifics are unclear. we see every day there are certain number of trucks that moved at a snails pace. what we would like to see is for that to be faster and of greater volume. before october 7, there were 500 trucks that would cross daily into gaza. that was during blockade. so not enough. the hospitals were already at a deficit of the equipment they needed, replenishing supplies, all the stocks were always

threadbare. so compounded with the fact we have an estimated 30,000 wounded people, not to mention those that are now coming in with fevers, gastrointestinal situations -- maybe cholera, but we don't know because we don't have the labs available to check. what we are seeing with this truce is that there is no way to be able to support the hospitals that continue to stand. many of them have been damaged in the fighting. they have been attacked systematically. the world health organization has been tracking this. for us, this is such an obvious violation of international humanitarian law. to attack hospitals, to kill medical staff while they are at the bedside of patients and to just go after these facilities as if there are excuse that is

legitimate when it is not and there's no evidence that has been offered to really prove they should be targets? really nothing to substantiate that at all. they are protected spaces. the truce has allowed perhaps some stock to go in for us to facilitate to do some movements, to check on some hospitals and clinics to see what their stocks are like, but what you really need is to pre-position everything. to have it already in place in a warehouse ready to be distributed to the places that need it most that still have medical staff. and that was not done because of the total siege of the last many weeks. nermeen: i am sure you have heard the world health organization earlier this week warned that more people in gaza could die from disease that have already died from the bombings. if you could talk a little bit about that. >> certainly, i mentioned infections earlier.

when you have children coming in who have more than 50% of their bodies burned from explosions -- they are in the best case scenario in the fully equipped hospital with all the means to control the infection, really a life or death situation. so now we have so many of these children that we could not treat properly. we don't even have the proper gauze to do it. the other thing the world health organization was pointing out is this question of dehydration. young children, infants, are coming in severely dehydrated and where is the water? this is one of the things that this collective punishment has honed in on to say we are not going to give you access to water or food or medicines, all the things needed just to stay alive. that is a huge problem right now. then you think of the people with chronic illnesses.

somebody who is on heart medication or they have diabetes or any number of chronic illnesses, think of the cancer patients. where are they supposed to go to replenish? the hospital system that is barely functioning at all in the south, for example, the focus is on the severely wounded coming in, trying to keep people alive. they are just trying to do the most triage urgently. the ones who need to have a safe place to give birth, the ones who neither heart medication, the children who are severely dehydrated and there is nowhere to look after them in a hospital like that, these are the ones that are likely to be the other casualties of this war, not only the ones killed by the direct violence that is seemingly affecting civilians so much more than anyone else. amy: if you can talk about

netanyahu's threat in resuming the bombardment? you have blinken who is urging more surgical strikes but they are talking about bombarding the south. this is where they force, what is it, i million gazans, palestinians to go from the north? so talk about what this would mean if this temporary cease-fire ends. >> it is a horror show for us. one third of the injured people already were injured in the south, which was the place everyone was told to go. and then they got killed there. for us, this is the worst because what we have is on the one side, the talk of we would like humanitarian law to be respected. we would like civilians to be considered. limit the collateral damage of civilians. what we have seen time and again is there are no consequences

evident for not doing that. and so we have, with the looming end of this truce and it seems not enough political will to really have a cease-fire, what we would regard as a kind of talking one thing but no consequences. so we can tell the israeli forces, the netanyahu government, please try to limit the killing of civilians, start doing that, but we are not releasing any consequences if they don't. we know the united states is providing billions in aid, military aid. it seems that aid could well be used with no consequences to violate international norms. the geneva conventions, international humanitarian law. for us, that is unacceptable. nermeen: msf international president christos christou posted this update on tuesday that while he was visiting the

msf team at the khalil suleiman hospital in jenin, the israeli army conducted an incursion on the refugee camp. >> yes. one of the most difficult things -- amy: we're going to play a>> ite hospital in jenin. there is no way any of the injured patients can reach the hospital and knowing for us to reach these people. there's nothing worse for a doctor to know there are people needing our care and they cannot get it. nermeen: if you could comment on that and also the fact two children were killed in jenin just today? >> as our international president cristou said, if people cannot access a facility in the west bank, already you can see the grave concern we

have come under humanitarian law, anyone should be able to reach a hospital. and to have a hospital blocked so no one can actually bring their injured children, bring their wounded to that hospital, for us is a complete outrage. it has been happening systematically in gaza. for us to see it elsewhere is something we as an international community should never accept. that is one of the reasons we are speaking so loudly and in a united voice with the humanitarian aid agencies for a cease-fire, proper cease-fire to stop the killing, stop the siege, and allow aid to come in unconditionally and for the people to be helped and to resume their lives in some shape or form. amy: we want to thank you, for joining us. those children in jenin killed

yesterday. avril benoît, executive director of doctors without borders. coming up, we will be speaking with the acclaimed gazan human rights attorney raji sourani, director of palestinian center for human rights. he will be joining us from cairo after his house was bombed in northern gaza. we will find out about his journey south. then we will speak with the pulitzer prize winning historian greg grandin about the death of henry kissinger. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: is what continue our coverage of gaza, we're joined by raji sourani, the award-winning human rights lawyer and director of the palestinian center for human rights in gaza. he is a recipient of the right

livelihood award and the robert f. kennedy human rights award. we last spoke with him after israel bombed his home in gaza city. he joins us now from cairo, egypt. welcome back to democracy now! if you could begin by talking about how you managed to leave gaza and how you got to cairo? >> it was very hard for me to leave gaza. i lived all my life. it was very hard. after i was targeted for the second time, after we talked, i was advised very strongly to leave the north of gaza. i left with my family, who did

not want to leave me alone. so we left together to the south for a few days. thanks for the help of friends who managed to get me there. because in two previous attempts, it was mission impossible when tens of people died either on the road or -- in front of our eyes when the israelis dropped a bomb was to people who were advised to leave to the safe haven in the south. that wasn't the case. so i managed to make it to the south finally on my third attempt. from there, i managed to move to egypt. there was quite a lot of friends who wanted -- the voice of the voiceless.

genocide taking place to be reported to the outside world. there is quite a lot of things to do with that. [indiscernible] there's quite a lot of work about this new nakba, which israel is creating, and to stop their complicity, their absolute political legal support for belligerent criminal incubation who's doing suicide, genocide at the daylight, who is doing ethnic cleansing, war crimes. but it seems deep in their minds and hearts the colonial, racist

western governments don't want to see, don't want to know, and they are insisting -- supporting blindly the israeli occupation in the crimes they're doing. amy: if you could look straight into the camera lens as we speak to you now in cairo, thank god you're ok, when we were speaking to you the day your son moving you and your beloved wife from one room saying, "let's going to the hallway" and in the place was destroyed. if you could say in more detail what it was like to make your way north to south? what you saw along the way? we also had reports that those who wanted to return to their homes north, so much of the

bombing, surprise people is happening actually in the south where people are directed to go before this cease-fire. is it true people were shot trying to go home in the north? the israeli military had said don't do this. >> well, we have to understand the context. the context of what the israelis really want. prime minister netanyahu, criminal netanyahu, said simple words, "gazans should leave gaza." he said, "gaza should be deserted." in the ministry of defense gal ant, in a clear civil way said, "for gazans, there will be no food, no electricity, no fuel."

so what does that mean? if you say gazans should leave gaza, to go where to? it is obvious and clear, if you are starving and cutting electricity, food, medicine, you are bombing shelters, hospitals, ambulances, if you are killing hundreds of entire families, if you arebi water infrastructure , if you are bombing entire streets in gaza, if you are not

allowing people to even reach hospital, if you bomb the defense system and the people who are working on it, what do you want from that? if you make no safe haven in gaza, what is the purpose of that? they want to push the north to the south? this is the first stage. and they pushed as many as a million people to the south. gaza, already one of the most densely populated places on earth, and they push them while gaza suffered 17 years of blockades, suffer the love so show and economically. -- suffered socioeconomically. and now you are killing almost

30,000 people because many, many still under the rubble, many still under the destroyed houses and unable to be recovered. you're talking about thousands of people. you're talking about thousands of people in the street from areas nobody can get to. the behavior of the israeli guidelines, the outcome of this pushing people to the south, and then from the south toward sinai, that is the new nakba. as simple as that. they want us outcome out of palestine come out of gaza come out of the west bank. this is the ultimate goal for the israel government and this is coronation of netanyahu and

the right wing -- the coalition agreement to do that, this was said day one of this war, of this genocide war and i think yet the israelis are so determined, so willing, and they want to do that. they want to do that. they finished the first stage and now they want to move to the second stage. and after they finish up with gaza, it won't be a new brand of apartheid -- they will do the same. what was lack of the plan in

1948 in the nakba, they want to implement it completely now. so israel would be clean and they would have the purity of the jewish state. and by that, they will have accomplished their mission. this is simple, clear for any who want to see beyond the details, this is really what israel wants to do. and that is why we call it from genocide, this is ethnic cleansing, and these are first-class war crimes . a, b, c of international law. it is against the geneva convention. it is against statute.

and we see from the wall to wall, support by many european countries doing that willingly and giving full legal, political, and military support for the state of israel. amy: as you talk about international law, can you make that comparison between what happened in ukraine, russia's invasion of ukraine, immediately the prosecutor of the international criminal court opening an investigation -- especially because children. i think there is something against what happened to the children, 500 children have died in ukraine over almost two years come up to 1000 dead or maimed. and you can. today few weeks of the bombardment of gaza, 5000 to

6000 children alone dead, for 15,000 people dead. what do you want. kaunda do? right now blinken met with buddha boss and herzog on is like the fourth trip to the middle east. the u.s. pushing hard to give more weapons aid to israel. your response to that? what do you want biden to say to netanyahu and how much power does he have? >> >> i don't think there is -- the u.s. to stop what is going on. they can simply stop all these crimes. we are bombed with f-35, f-16s. the american tanks, the american ammunition. we are killed with that.

with small amount of european arms. now, if the u.s. wants, they can do that and they can do that simply but they are supporting what israel is doing. if we are talking about the next stage -- hello? and we can hear you. if you can just look up into the camera. we see you. we may have just lost raji sourani. raji sourani is a world-renowned award-winning human rights attorney, when the robert f. kennedy human rights award. has lived in gaza for decades. speaking to us from cairo, egypt. he just got out of gaza. his home was bombed with this wife and son it. next up, we will talk about

henry kissinger. he has died at the age of 100. we will speak to historian greg grandin, author of "kissinger's shadow." ♪ [music break]

amy: musician who died days after the chilean dictator augusto pinochet came to power. u.s.-backed, nixon-backed, kissinger-backed augusto pinochet, leading to the death of thousands. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: henry kissinger has died at the age of 100. to many in the washington establishment, kissinger will likely be remembered as one of the most influential diplomats of the 20th century. but around the world -- including in chile, east timor, bangladesh, and cambodia -- henry kissinger is remembered as a war criminal whose actions led to massacres, coups, and even genocide. kissinger, who was born in

germany, served as u.s. secretary of state under richard nixon and gerald ford from 1973 to 1977. he also served as national security advisor from 1969 to 1975. he is the only u.s. official to ever simultaneously hold both posts. he won the nobel peace prize in 1973 with his north vietnam counterpart le duc tho. during his time in office, henry kissinger oversaw a massive expansion of the war in vietnam and the secret bombings of laos and cambodia where as many 150,000 civilians were killed in the u.s. strikes as kissinger told the military "anything that flies or anything that moves." in south asia, kissinger backed the pakistani military genocidal war against east pakistan, which is now bangladesh. in latin america, declassified documents show how kissinger secretly intervened across the continent, from bolivia to uruguay to chile to argentina. in chile, kissinger urged president nixon to take a

"harder line" against the chile's democratically elected president salvador allende. on september 11, 1973, allende was overthrown by the u.s.-backed general augusto pinochet. kissinger once said -- "i don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own amy: in 1975, kissinger and president gerald ford met with the indonesian dictator general suharto to give him the go-ahead to invade east timor, which indonesia did on december 7, 1975. the indonesians killed a third of the timorese population. kissinger also drew up plans to attack cuba in the mid-1970's after fidel castro sent cuban troops to angola to fight forces linked to apartheid south africa. at home, kissinger urged president nixon to go after pentagon papers whistleblower dan ellsberg who kissinger

called the "the most dangerous man in america." the historian greg grandin once estimated that kissinger's actions may have led to the deaths of 3 million, maybe 4 million people. while human rights activists have long called for kissinger to be tried for war crimes, he remained a celebrated figure in washington and beyond, serving as an officer to both republican and democratic administrations. we turn now to greg grandin, pulitzer prize winning author and professor of history at yale university. his books include "kissinger's shadow: the long reach of america's most controversial statesman." his new piece for the nation is "a people's obituary of henry kissinger." he also wrote the introduction to the new book just out "only the good die young: the verdict on henry kissinger." welcome back to democracy now! give us this people's history of henry kissinger as we see in the

mainstream media he is hailed as the man who opened communication with china, led to add to talk with russia. what is your version of events? >> summed up very well the version of events, the number of war crimes that he was involved in. kissinger's life is fascinating because it spans a very consequential bridge in the united states history from the collapse of the postwar consensus that happened with vietnam and kissinger's re-creating the national security state that can deal with polarization [indiscernible] learning to manipulative the public to advance very aggressive foreign policy. we can go into the details but i do want to say his death has

been as instructive as his life. you look at the obituaries and condolences, they revealed i think a moral bankruptcy of the political establishment. certainly in the transatlantic world, nato-shphere, the incapacity to copper in the crisis we are in and kissinger's role in that. [indiscernible] as a cultural marker of how

bankrupt the political class in this country is. so his death is almost as instructive as life. nermeen: we had you on, greg, when kissinger turns 100. in that interview, you said that the best way to think about kissinger is not necessarily as a war criminal. could you explain why? >> that is the way of elevating kissinger in some ways as somehow an extraordinary evil. it is a fine line because he did playing outside role in a staggering number of atrocities and dealing misery and death across the globe to means of people. but there are a lot of were criminals. -- were criminals.

it does not allow us to think with kissinger's life to think about how the united states, for example, kissinger started off as a rockefeller republican. the role republican -- liberal republican. when nixon was far out of the mainstream and a dangerous sociopath, as he put it. yet when nixon won [indiscernible] you made a speech with nixon and went into public office. [indiscernible] he even made a speech with donald trump. he celebrated donald trump almost as a kind of embodiment

of his theory of a great state being able to craft reality is they want to through their will. you see kissinger [indiscernible] the secret bombing of cambodia -- [indiscernible]

they went to protest the invasion of cambodia. now it is just considered effective international law that the united states has the right to bomb countries that -- third-party countries that we are not at war with. it is just considered commonplace. you can see this evolution and drift toward endless war. kissinger's life, think about how as a public official [indiscernible] national security visor and then secretary of state, kissinger created much of the chaos that would later necessitate and require --

kissinger helped broker -- you see the transition from a public policy maker or politician and then going on to making an told wealth as a private citizen in this transition. there are many ways in which kissinger's life kind of masks the trajectory of the united states. they celebrated him at the new york public library as if he was the american century incarnate. in many ways, he was. his career really does back nicely onto the trajectory of the united states and the

evolution of the national security state and his foreign-policy and the broken world we are all trying to live in. amy: greg, i want to go to henry kissinger in his own words speaking in 2016 when he defended the secret bombing of cambodia. >> nixon ordered an attack on the base areas within five miles of the vietnamese border that was essentially unpopulated. the size of the attacks, probably much less than what the obama administration has done in pakistan.

i believe what was done in cambodia was justified. amy: that was henry kissinger in 2016. he was speaking at the lbj library. the late celebrity chef anthony bourdain once said -- "once you've been to cambodia, you'll never stop wanting to beat henry kissinger to death with your bare hands. you will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with charlie rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. witness what henry did in cambodia -- the fruits of his genius for statesmanship -- and you will never understand why he's not sitting in the dock at the hague next to milosevic." if you can just respond to that? >> that quote contains more

intelligence than the entire political establishment, both democrat and republican. it is morally and intellectually correct. it is more accurate than most diplomatic historians. in terms of kissinger's quote himself about cambodia, he is playing a bit of a game. the united states massively bombed cambodia. [indiscernible] you tend to bring to power the most extremist.

[indiscernible] is it wrong when he links it to obama's bombing of pakistan? it was against international law to bomb third countries in order to advance your war aims in another country but now it is accepted. it is true, he is not wrong when he cites obama's drum program -- drone program. he is not wrong about that. and that is the line -- one of the lines you can trace from vietnam and cambodia and south

asia to today's catastrophe that we are living. " greg, thank you for being with us, pulitzer prize winning author and professor of history at yale university. he is author of "kissinger's shadow: the long reach of america's most controversial statesman."