12/08/23 12/08/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from the u.n. climate summit in dubai in the united arab emirates, this is democracy now! >> the kids can't sleep. the kids can't even speak.

sometimes they are whimpering because of how close the bombs are wherever you are in gaza. and again, the houses shake every time there is a bomb around. and this is happening again all over gaza strip. amy: those were the words of the palestinian poet and professor refaat alareer on democracy now! just two months ago. he was killed this week in an israeli airstrike, along with his brother and sister and four of his nieces. we will speak to one of refaat's close friends as the palestinian death toll in gaza tops 17,000. then in an exclusive interview, we speak to the indigenous climate activist jacob johns, who was shot two months ago in new mexico in gunmen wearing a red mega hat. he is here at the u.n. climate summit. >> i was shot while attending a

provisional -- prayer visual. amy: then brazilian president desilva is calling for saving -- facing out of fossil fuels but has alarmed many climate activists by moving to join the oil producer alliance opec+. >> now is time to face the debate about the foe -- slow motion and work toward an economy less reliant on fossil fuel. amy: we will speak to amazon watch about lula's climate record. all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are broadcasting from the u.n. climate summit in dubai. the u.n. agency for palestinian refugees warns civil order is breaking down in the gaza strip as israel continues its unrelenting assault on the latest attacks where dozens of palestinians were killed and injured as israeli warplanes struck near the al-amal hospital and the palestinian red crescent's headquarters in khan younis. in gaza city, doctors without borders reports 115 palestinians were brought to the al-aqsa hospital thursday dead on arrival. the medical charity said in a statement -- "the hospital is full, the morgue is full. we call on israeli forces to stop the indiscriminate bombing of the gaza strip and protect civilians and civilian infrastructure. we need a ceasefire now." meanwhile, video has emerged showing israeli soldiers in beit

lahia in northern gaza detaining over 100 palestinian men at gunpoint, forcing them to strip to their underwear while lined up, kneeling on the pavement. among those detained was diaa al-kahlout, a palestinian journalist with the london-based pan-arab newspaper al-araby al-jadeed. in a statement, the newspaper condemned the mistreatment of al-jadeed and other innocent civilians, saying israeli forces "deliberately subjected the gazans to degrading treatment, forcing them to disrobe, conducting intrusive searches, and subjecting them to humiliation upon arrest, before forcibly transporting them to undisclosed locations." in the occupied west bank, the palestinian health ministry reports at least six palestinians were killed and many others wounded in israeli raids overnight. an israeli airstrike in gaza has killed the prominent palestinian

academic and activist refaat alareer, along with his brother, his sister, four of her daughters. he authored dozens of stories and poems about life under israeli occupation. refaat alareer spoke to democracy now! in october as israeli strikes rattled his family's home in gaza city. >> thousands of israeli bombs and shells targeting all areas of the gaza strip. the kids can't sleep. the kids can't eat, they can't even speak most of the time they are just silent, shaking out of fear. sometimes whimpering because of how close the bombs are wherever you are in gaza. amy: we will hear more of our interview with refaat alareer after headlines and speak with jehad abusalim, executive

director of the jerusalem fund and former student of refaat alareer. an anti-tank missile fired by hezbollah fighters in lebanon killed an israeli civilian on thursday. the cross-border attack prompted retaliatory fire from israeli tanks and helicopter gunships. prime minister benjamin netanyahu threatened to reduce lebanon's capital beirut to rubble if hezbollah increases its cross-border attacks. >> if hezbollah chooses to start an all-out war, then it will by its own hand, turned beirut in southern lebanon into gaza and khan younis. amy: in tel aviv, friends and family of israelis held hostage by hamas held a candle-lighting ceremony thursday marking the start of the jewish holiday hanukkah. this is daniel lifshitz, whose 83-year-old grandfather oded was

kidnapped by hamas and brought to the gaza strip on october 7. >> we liked the kennels for the return of the hostages -- we light the candles for the return of the hostages. that is what we are here for. amy: on tuesday, released israeli hostages joined family and friends of israelis still held captive in a meeting with netanyahu and its war cabinet. haaretz reports one woman whose release was negotiated during an exchange of captives and whose husband remains a hostage in gaza assailed israeli leaders for indiscriminate attacks that put hostages at risk. she said -- "we slept in tunnels, and we feared not hamas, but israel might kill us, and then it would have been said, 'hamas killed you'." another former hostage whose husband remains a captive cited recent reports in "the wall street journal" and elsewhere that israel has drawn up plans to flood gaza's network of underground tunnels with sea water, a move that could foul gaza's supply of drinking water for decades. she said --

"he was taken to the tunnels, and you talk about washing the tunnels with seawater. you prioritize politics over the hostages!" the united states military has launched joint flight drills with guyana as the white house reaffirmed its unwavering support of guyanese sovereignty amid mounting tensions with venezuela over the disputed oil-rich essequibo region. after holding a referendum on the issue last weekend, the venezuelan government ordered its state-owned companies to start exploring oil and mineral reserves in essequibo, which represents roughly two thirds of guyana's territory. guyanese asked the international court of justice to reaffirm current borders. this is guyanese president irfaan ali. >> we will not allow our territory to be violated. amy: brazilian president luiz inacio lula da silva said thursday regional groups should

help find a peaceful resolution, adding, "we do not need war in south america." in texas, a judge granted a temporary restraining order thursday against the state's sweeping abortion ban to allow a 20-week pregnant woman with a non-viable fetus to get an abortion. 31-year-old kate cox filed the first-of-its-kind lawsuit last week. travis county judge maya guerra gamble said it was "unforgivable that she was forced to go to court" to seek emergency medical care. >> the idea that ms. cox wants desperately to be a parent and this law might actually cause her to lose that ability is shocking and would be a genuine

miscarriage of justice. amy: following the judge's ruling, texas attorney general ken paxton threatened to prosecute any providers involved in kate cox's abortion care. a nevada grand jury has indicted six fake trump electors who falsely claimed trump won the 2020 vote in nevada. they face felony charges with penalties that could see them sentenced to up to five years in prison. in wisconsin, 10 pro-trump republicans involved in their state's fake elector scheme admitted biden won wisconsin in 2020 as part of a legal settlement. the agreement compels the 10 fake electors to cooperate with the justice department's investigations into trump's election fraud and the january 6 capitol insurrection. the justice department indicted hunter biden on nine counts of

tax evasion. the indictment, filed in california, accuses president biden's son of withholding at least $1.4 million in federal taxes owed from 2016 through 2019. it includes income from foreign businesses in ukraine and china. this comes as hunter biden is already facing federal firearms charges in delaware. and benjamin zephaniah, a british activist and poet whose works were inspired by his jamaican and barbadian roots, has died at the age of 65. zephaniah published his first collection of reggae-inspired dub poetry after he moved to london in 1979, tackling topics like racism and poetry. -- poverty. he was one of the first poets to address the climate crisis. in 2003, benjamin refused the

prestigious obe award, which stands for order of the british empire. in an op-ed, he wrote, "no way mr. blair, no way mrs. queen. i am profoundly anti-empire." in 2010, zephaniah spoke to democracy now! just after he joined the british production of the people speak, a people's history of britain inspired by the work of the late historian howard zinn. >> i did not know it was like democracy. i didn't know the difference between left or right or anything like that. i just knew i was suffering racism, i was suffering police brutality, our schools were run down, our houses were run down, and i wanted to speak about it. it was political, but i couldn't spell the word "politics." i just wanted to talk about the conditions we lived in. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

we are broadcasting from dubai in the united arab emirates. israel's bombardment of gaza has entered its third month. health officials in gaza say the israeli assault has killed over 17,000 palestinians. earlier this week, an israeli airstrike in gaza city killed the acclaimed palestinian academic and activist refaat alareer, along with his brother, his sister, and four of his nieces. for more than 16 years, alareer worked as a professor of english literature at the islamic university of gaza where he taught shakespeare and other subjects. refaat alareer was a father of six and a mentor to many young palestinian writers and journalists. he also cofounded the organization we are not numbers. he authored dozens of stories and poems about life under

israeli occupation in gaza. in a few minutes, we will speak to one of friends, but first, i want to return to refaat alareer in his own words. he has spoken to us several times. this is october 10 as he spoke to democracy now! and israeli strikes rattled his family's home in gaza city. >> what is happening in gaza is complete and utter extermination of the non-jewish population in occupied palestine. as you mentioned, israel ordered a medieval hermetic siege from air and sea. israel has also just bombed the only way out through egypt, the rafah crossing. the only way out is for -- what's happening, what we are foreseeing is slow starvation, slow genocide. maybe israel is going to push us all into the sea. and i think what is making it

even more difficult than before is that the whole world, not even lip service -- all american and european countries and politicians are rushing to pledge allegiance to israel and to netanyahu. american politicians, american presidential hopefuls are literally calling for genocide. american mainstream media is not pushing back against israeli officials calling for the collateral damage of hundreds of thousands of palestinians in gaza. why is this happening? because we refuse to live under occupation. we refuse to live in total submission. we want freedom. we want this occupation to end. this is not a state of war, as one of your guests just mentioned. this is a state of occupation

that started over 75 years, that started with the british empire giving palestine to the zionist movement in 1917. the only hope we have is in the growing popular support in america, in the movements of -- the movements, the human rights and the rights movements in america and across europe, to take to the streets to pressure their politicians into putting an end to this dark, dark episode of not only the history of the middle east, but also the history of humanity. if people are asking how was the holocaust allowed and other genocides in africa and across the world, now you can see this live on tv, live on social media. palestinians' whole blocks destroyed, hospitals, schools, businesses.

we are speaking about thousands and thousands of housing units destroyed by israel. so my message to the free people of the world is to move to pressure, to mobilize, and to take to the streets. amy: refaat alareer, you are the father of six. how old are your children? and can you describe what it's like to live there right now? >> like i said, this has been systematically happening for over seven decades. it was the noose around gaza's neck was tightened 15 years ago, and it's being tightened even further now. the situation is unspeakable. you can't describe what's happening in words. we speak about thousands, hundreds and thousands of israeli bombs and shells targeting all areas of the gaza strip. the kids can't sleep. the kids can't eat. the kids can't even speak. most of the time they're just

mute, silent, shaking out of fear, sometimes whimpering because of how close the bombs are wherever you are in gaza. and again, the houses shake every time there is a bomb around. and this is happening again all over gaza strip. israel is telling people, is pushing people forcibly to leave out of their homes and urging them to go to certain places, like the city center or the u.n. places, shelters, and then israel bombs the roads leading to these areas and bombs these crowded areas. yesterday, there was a massacre. israel killed about 60 palestinians in jabalia refugee camp in a local market where there is a u.n. school, people taking shelter there. so whether it is my kids or any palestinian kid or any palestinian, no one is safe. no place is safe. israel is bombing everywhere.

amy: those were the words of the acclaimed palestinian academic and activist refaat alareer speaking on democracy now! on october 10. earlier this week, he was killed in an israeli airstrike along with his brother, his sister, and four of his nieces. refaat last posted on social media on monday, writing on x -- "the democratic party and biden are responsible for the gaza genocide perpetrated by israel." when democracy now! spoke to refaat during the 2021 israeli assault on gaza, he also accused the biden administration of enabling the massacre of palestinians. >> i think what biden is giving netanyahu the green light to start this, that america supports israel's right to

defend itself, two days after the aggression started, quickly said this is going to be a long war against civilians because israel is killing us using american technology, using american planes. all the american administration has blood, palestinian blood on their hands. the massacre that is going on is on biden. amy: again, the words of the late palestinian academic and activist refaat alareer speaking on democracy now! in 2021. months after he had written an op-ed for "the new york times," we are joined right now by jehad abusalim, a scholar and policy analyst from gaza. executive director of the jerusalem fund. he was a student and close

friend of refaat alareer. thank you so much for joining us. our deepest condolences on the loss of your friend who you have known for some 17, 18 years. can you talk about how you learned of refaat's death and tell us the story of his life. >> thank you for having me. i was at work when my wife called me asking me if i heard something about refaat. and if the news about him were true. i open my phone and looked at my social media apps and that was the moment i realized that he was gone. refaat alareer was a towering

figure in palestinian society, especially in gaza. he transcended the role of educator and teacher. he was a mentor, a beacon of wisdom and guidance, a loving father and husband, and a compassionate son. refaat's presence in reached the lives of hundreds if not thousands of students. his influence extended far beyond the confines of the classroom. refaat wasn't just a teacher, he was a friend, confident, someone who loved to support his students and who believed truly in the potential of each student, offering them personal advice and guidance. refaat will be missed.

it is really hard to sum up the story and a few words. but one thing i can say is that refaat's life was not without its share of many, melanie -- many challenges. despite the harsh reality of life in gaza, refaat remained unwavering, using his pen and voice to write back and fight back. his resilience was inspiration to us all, students and friends and members of the cultural and intellectual community in gaza. in a place like gaza were educational resources are scarce, refaat's mastery of the english language was more than a skill. it was a mission. he saw english as a key, a tool to liberation and a means to

defy the siege and intellectual and economic restrictions that israel imposed on gaza and other palestinian communities. so for him, his teaching wasn't just about imparting knowledge or conducting exams, it was about empowerment. about using language as a weapon against oppression. amy: do you know how he was killed? >> from what we hear in the media and based on reports by his friends, neighbors, he was sheltering at a school and he received a phone call from the israeli intelligence informing

him his location -- that they located his place. that they identified his location. and whether this was a call from an official arm of the israeli intelligence or a mere troll, we don't know. he decided that it's probably not safe for him to remain at the school where he was sheltering, so he went probably to see family -- his sister, his brother. and at that moment, the place where he was was bombed, which led to killing him, his sister, his brother, and his four nieces. many of the details remain unknown given the fact that the

part of gaza where he was killed is cut off from the gaza strip. it is under heavy bombardment. it is the site of many atrocities that are still being committed by israeli forces. so without having journalists and investigators and workers with international organizations access these areas, we can't really fully grasp all of the details of refaat's death. and of course, the tragedies that have befell many, many other palestinians there. amy: jehad abusalim, he taught at islamic university, is that

right? before the well-known human rights attorney raji sourani ultimately left gaza, we were interviewing him at his home in gaza city. the house shook. we learned then that islamic university had been hit. now in the last days, we have learned the president of islamic university was killed with his family. that occurred just recently. he was a well-known mathematician and physicist. did you know him? >> i did not know the professor, but as someone who went to both the university in gaza, which was destroyed -- the islamic

university in gaza which was destroyed, i can tell you that the scale of loss, the tragedy that has fallen the academic, scholarly, and intellectual community in gaza and until this time is unprecedented. israel is destroying the foundations of society in the gaza strip. israel is systematically destroying our educational system, our cultural institutions, and today we saw footage of a structure in gaza that dates back thousands of years also in ruins. this is a genocidal war of mass

destruction. we mourn our teachers, our educators, our daughters, our nurses, our friends, our neighbors. and we also are mourning the loss of a society as we knew it that no longer exists. and this is all happening while the world is watching, leaving palestinians in gaza endure one of the largest bombardment campaigns in the 21st century. how is this acceptable? how is this allowed to happen? amy: jehad abusalim, refaat

edited two volumes. can you talk about those books? he was a poet, a writer, author, activist. >> in gaza rights back, he says "writing is a testimony, a memory that outlives any human experience and an obligation to communicate with ourselves and the world. we lived for reason, to tell the tales of loss, survival, and of hope." refaat alareer understood the power of english. he understood in a place like gaza where educational resources are scarce and where educational institutions are cut off from the rest of the world, he realized his mastery of the

english language was more than a skill. it was a mission. so he saw english as a key to liberation, a means to defy the siege and intellectual and academic blockade that israel has imposed and continues to impose in gaza. and as i said, refaat's teaching wasn't just about imparting knowledge. it was about empowerment and about using language as a weapon against oppression. so when refaat was teaching those hundreds and thousands of students, including myself, he said to us that we are living in a world that is refusing to hear us, refusing to listen to us, it is refusing to listen to our stories. and he warned that the world

would continue to perceive palestinians as numbers and to perceive their pain as abstract statistics mentioned in the reports of human rights organizations that come out every year and then are rendered unimportant. so he told us that we have two write our stories. we have to talk about our stories. and we have to make sure that our stories are communicated in every language and in every way possible. amy: i am wondering if, as we wrap up, you can read the poem that refaat pinned to his twitter page at the top, "if i must die" >> it is a great honor to do so.

>> if i must die, you must live to pen my story, to sell my things, to buy a piece of cloth and some strings. make it white with a long tail so a child somewhere in gaza while looking heaven in the eye, awaiting his death, lived in a blaze not even to his flesh not even to himself amy: jehad abusalim, thank you

for being with us. again, deepest condolences on the last of your friend and mentor. jehad is a scholar and policy analyst from gaza. executive director of the jerusalem fund. speaking to us from virginia. refaat alareer was the editor of two volumes. we will link to his op-ed piece in "the new york times was what he wrote several once ago. meanwhile, here at cop28 in dubai, protests in solidarity with palestine have faced severe restrictions. earlier today, the lead spokesperson for the climate justice coalition asad rehman spoke with others during a media

huddle to talk at an unofficial media briefing. >> irony with the secretary general invoking article 99 of the u.n. charter and in this u.n. space where you have kalus u.n. institutions calling for a cease-fire i'm even uttering the word cease-fire has been something that we were blocked from saying. it has taken a week of negotiating before we are allowed to say it. but still today, and pictures of that, people have been told they're not allowed to wear that. people have been told they will be debadged if they do not take off these lenders. those who have been involved in this space for many years, this is probably the most restrictive we have seen. we are more restrictive than egypt last year. the irony were we were promised

that our rights of civil society would be protected here stop and everything we have tried to do has been within the u.n. rules. we are well-versed in the u.n. rules about what is acceptable and not acceptable. the rules are being changed on a day by day basis. they are being interpreted by somebody else to determine what is acceptable and not acceptable. we were told that was because by the cop presidency. we went and saw the cop presidency and the cop presidency said privately and publicly it is not the cop28 presidency which is pushing for these restrictions. in the question is, who is pressuring the u.n. and the u.n. agency that we are not allowed to raise what is a question that is of course the uppermost in everyone's minds both what is taking place in gaza, the fact

international law and humanitarian law is in shreds, and what that of location means for us as organizations deeply committed to the multilateral space and also international law? amy: asad rehman speaking earlier today here at cop28 in dubai. coming up, an exclusive interview we speak to indigenous climate activist jacob johns. he was shot in the chest two months ago in new mexico by gunmen wearing a red mega hat. we will speak to the indigenous of our mental activist. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: "silent stories" by karim baggili featuring le trio joubran. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. as we broadcast from cop28 in dubai, we look now at threats to

land and environmental defenders on the frontlines of the climate crisis. global witness documented that last year a climate defender was killed every other day. somewhere in the world. in a minute, we will speak with jacob johns, a hopi and akimel o'odham environmental defender with the u.s. climate action network who is leading the indigenous wisdom keepers delegation here at cop28 after he survived being shot in the chest by a far-right agitator in september in española, new mexico. the 23-year-old shooter was a supporter of donald trump and was wearing a red maga hat when he attacked a protest against the reinstallation of a statue of the violent spanish conquistador juan de oñate. johns and other indigenous activists were protesting plans to reinstall the statue honoring the 16th century conquistador, who was also new mexico's first colonial governor and ordered a

massacre in 1599 that killed between 800 and 1000 acoma indigenous people. three years ago in 2020, a former albuquerque city council candidate was arrested for shooting a protester four times at a demonstration calling for the removal of another juan de oñate statue. local and state officials in new mexico reportedly ignored the warnings of potential gun violence ahead of the indigenous-led peaceful action. this is melanie yazzie of the red nation. >> denise william, mother of shooting victim scott williams who was targeted at a 2020 juan de oñate protest set prior to the event, she called the governor's office, the office of u.s. senator heinrich coming new mexico state police, the office of the new mexico attorney general -- all members of u.s. congress representing their county in new mexico and all new mexico state representative and

senators from valencia county, to warn them of the high chance of gun violence directed at attendees. the state senator was the only want to respond. immediately after the shooting, scott williams' father all the governor's office again to tell her she "have blood on her hands for failing to properly respond to and prevent both shootings. amy: in october, a judge found probable cause to charge the gunman, ryan martinez, with attempted murder for the shooting of jacob johns during the peaceful prayer ceremony. again melanie yazzie. ,>> it has been shown the shooter was in possession of automatic weapons and elaborately targeted and attacked a peaceful and prayerful assembly of indigenous peoples. he brandished his gun at women and children. if jacob had not interposed

himself, there could have well been a mass shooting on that day. amy: well, for more, we are joined by jacob johns for his first interview since he put his body between women and children when the shooter charged at them. we are so thankful you are alive, jacob, and that you have healed enough to come to dubai for the u.n. climate summit. if you don't mind going back to september 28 and talking about why you had flown in washington state where you live to new mexico and what you were protesting when the shooter came forward? >> i am based in spokane, washington. i'm a solo nonprofit group that does intersectional organizing around social justice and environmental protection. i'm a part of the u.s. climate action network, which is a

national network that has like 187 organizations that come together and try to build momentum around forcing our government to do what they say they're going to do. i had applied for a grant and went to the west coast regional meeting to talk about the grant and meet with others in the area. one thing the network likes to do is support these spaces. i was asked to come out and support a local movement taking place at the statue in española. i am hopi, which makes my cousins in new mexico. i felt obligated to go out there. they told me was mainly women and children and elders holding a prayer vigil to pray this statue was not reinstalled. the statue was taken down in 2020. the akimel o'odham people in the local people have oral history

and testimony of the horrendous things that took place at the hands of this person juan de oñate. we came out to support and spend the night there and had a prayer ceremony at sunrise accompanied with the elders, the women united, and other members of the u.s. climate action network. the county commissioner ended up not reinstalling the statue. our prayers were heard and answered. we were not protesting more anti-anything, we were pro logic and processability. our prayers were sent out to the universe and received. amy: what happened with this guy and a red maga hat? >> a bunch of right-wing extremists showed up wearing these hats. we were just advocating for the statue to be built or to be re-put into place.

this person who the statue is of is equitable to hitler. you think of putting up the idea of a statue of hitler and a place where there is mainly jewish people, it is just a moral responsibility. these people came out and they were very agitated of. there is one, specifically the shooter, that was walking around and being very aggressive coming into the space, was just taking a lot of video and saying racist things to young children and really being in a negative space. the police ended up taking him and making him leave because of how he was being so aggressive to the gentle crowd. and he was allowed to come back in. once he came back in, the police left and this is when the incident occurred. amy: and he opened fire. several surgeries.

that was at the end of september. this is only two months later. you have healed enough to come here. talk about why you are leading the indigenous wisdom keepers delegation, what you're calling for here. >> they said they charged him with attempted murder. i did in fact die. i died in a helicopter on the way to albuquerque. in that place jan death, i ran into a council of spirits that i had to beg and convinced to let me come back into this body. i had to sign a new life contract with a long list of things i had to do. this was one of them. i have been working for a year bringing together a group of indigenous wisdom keepers and activists from around the world to come together and put our minds into a document that would -- from a global perspective and

stand in solidarity with each other. a lot of indigenous folks understand what we're trying to push domestically often goes on deaf ears and we have to step outside of our governmental forces and try to plead internationally for these type of venues. we had 15 folks who have been coming from around the world to be here. first off, spiritually, i was obligated but morally obligated to continue to do this work stop i am the moneyman, too. i have to sign the checks and make sure everything is in the space it is to be but i do have ongoing medical issues. amy: what is most important you would to see out of cop28? >> the hearts and minds of our world leaders shift to a more logical frame. we must stand in solidarity with the future that is livable and just. we are being fed dystopian lies about how the world will end and every thing will fall apart.

science is saying that we as indigenous people understand as the old world dies, new what is created we must focus on that creation process as being what it is we're trying to broadcast into the universe. amy: jacob johns is a hopi and akimel o'odham member of the wisdom keepers delegation. after surviving being shot in the chest in september by far right agitator in new mexico. thank god you're ok. thank you so much for being here , this first interview, jacob. next up, as brazilian president lula da silva calls for phasing out fossil fuels, we will speak about amazon watch about lula's record. back in 30 seconds. ♪ [music break]

amy: "stop the war" by benjamin zephaniah. the british activist and poet was inspired by his roots in jamaica and barbados. he has died at the age of 65. to see our interview with benjamin a few years ago, go to democracynow.org.

this is democracy now! i'm amy goodman. we are broadcasting from cop28 in dubai. we ended today show looking at brazils plans to address the climate crisis. president lula da silva calls for a phase out of fossil fuels. >> now is the time to face the debate about the slow-motion pace of the decarbonization of the planet and to work toward an economy that will be less reliant on fossil fuels. amy: that brazil has alarmed many activists over its plan to join oil producer lines opec+ as an observer state. >> our participation in opec's for us to discuss with opec the need that rich oil-producing countries start investing part of their money helping poor countries and the african continent, latin america, asia, to invest in nonfossil fuels. they can find ethanol, diesel, wind energy, solar energy.

this is our role. amy: we're joined now by paolo vargas. we what are you start off by clarifying what is lula, the brazilian president's stance right now? >> he will be leading climate action toward a better plan about what we saw here is a big contradiction. lula in one hand, like delivering a lot of important speeches and announcements. it on the other one, praising opec+. it is a big skeleton they're trying to hide. for instance, they attempt to open the amazon to oil exploration. amy: where you are encouraged by any stance?

do you think lula can be moved? also the question about encouraging oil drilling off-site come off coast? >> there are reasons to be hopeful. if in fact possible for lula to take this leadership role. it is a fact he arrived at cop believing what he promised in terms of deforestation. he plans 024 station by 2030. he is one of the most ambitious plans and presidents in trying to lead. he is also very focused on climate justice and bringing those more vulnerable to the table. he is receiving indigenous leaders and working with them toward this. yes, in two years, lula can be supported to take this leadership role. amy: talk more about what bolsonaro did, his targeting of the rain forest, and how much further lula has to go.

>> it is a sad thing to say and four years bolsonaro has really created an opening amazon for a lot of illegal activities. he has given the sense of impunity and now we have transporter crime going stronger, people define the government even after lula took the invaders from the territory they are back and define the police and fighting them. so what bolsonaro did was unprecedented. like helping those illegal loggers and illegal mining and farmers to get to the amazon as a new frontier and lawless frontier. lula has a big challenge, first, to try to get better conditions to the environmental agencies. they are now trying to do the work so they need funds and people because it was dismantled. but it is proof it can be done. it was stubby before when lula

was president and marina was the minister and they were able to reduce deforestation 82%. in only one year they have been able to do this -- a must 49% of deforestation. it can be done and he is moving towards it. but we also have to understand and be attentive for what they're calling sensible progress, economy. he is talking about economy. a lot of people think that means more mining. and mining, the model that exists now, it not sustainable. he can about progress if they work with communities and not agribusiness, not big industrial money culture. people are hungry. we need food. farmers can be part of the development. brazil has a big, big possibility of being the top

leader and environmental change. we do believe we have two years to prove that. amy: latin america is the deadliest region for environmentalists. who is behind the murders? >> that is not a simple question because we have seen how crime is a big network of actors. we have some in the community, poor people, working as illegal loggers and fishermen because i need to survive but they are part of -- working -- the big cartel, drug cartel are working transporter between colombia, venezuela posted just recently, human rights watch released a big report where -- it is important understand the solution is not simple. we don't need more

militarization. if we don't bring solutions, social solutions, work with the community, economic solutions, there will be just another war. amy: what come out of u.n. cop28 where we are right now? >> that he can be a place for big discussions and give hope and unite movements, not big business expo that it is becoming right now. amy: the significance of al-jaber being the president of the cop and also the head of one of the largest oil companies in the world? >> yes, that is like -- amy: and a lobbyist, 2500 of them, which we have never seen before at a cop. >> is like, why those two cops

are happening in those places? and i think because of this and because of the carbon capture, fossil fuel capture happening, instead of giving us less hope, should give society and movements and journalists toward putting the effort to make brazil cop a different one. we have to understand loss and damage will never happen without pressure of civil society. we have to maybe believe that u.n. and cop could be a place that we can still bring politicians together to discuss a better world but it will not happen without pressure. your work and our work and more. we have to organize. transnational, global movements so together we can push our governments toward the right path. amy: i want to thank you for being with us, paula vargas, brazil program director at amazon watch.

in the coming days we will be broadcasting an interview with brazil's first indigenous peoples minister and the first indigenous woman's peoples minister. that does it for our broadcast. a very special thank you to our team here in dubai. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]