12/15/23 12/15/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> the army is everywhere. they burned cars and houses. the army's president every empty house. i left my home and they were still there. amy: as the death toll in gaza

near 19,000, the israeli military is also carrying out raids inside the occupied west bank. we will go to jenin to speak to the artistic director at the freedom theater who was jailed this week after israel rounded up hundreds of palestinian men. two of his colleagues remain in detention. he will speak to us from the theater, which was trashed by israeli forces. we will also speak to peter schumann, the 89-year-old co-founder of the bread and puppet theater about how his legendary troupe is addressing israel's assault on gaza. >> what could be worse, the worst violation of our human rights than bombing hospitals and then send the murders to

investigate the crime. amy: but first, we will speak to the acclaimed writer masha gessen, who was scheduled to receive the prestigious hannah arendt prize in germany today, but the ceremony was postponed after a major german foundation withdrew its support for the award after gessen compared gaza to the warsaw ghetto. we will also speak to masha gessen about being placed on russia's most wanted list for comments they made about the war in ukraine. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in the gaza strip, at least 33 people were killed when israel's military struck a u.n. school in khan younis being used as a shelter-of-last-resort for palestinians expelled from their homes. israeli raids also killed and wounded palestinians at

hospitals in deir el-balah, khan younis, and in gaza's southernmost city of rafah, where more than 1 million displaced palestinians are sheltering. abu mohamad klab was among those gathered at the morgue at rafah's abu youssef al-najjar hospital thursday. they had come to collect the bodies of loved ones killed by israeli strikes. >> they are looking at the images but no one is saying anything. the dead are all children, women, and elderly. they are not from the resistance. they are all civilians. you know the number of civilians, so why are you still silent? how long will you stay silent? enough. enough of this life. amy: the death toll from israel's assaults on gaza and the west bank since october has nearing 19,000. more than a third of those killed are children. an estimated 50,000 palestinians have been injured. on thursday, israel once again cut phone and internet service across most of gaza, further

hampering relief efforts. the world food programme reports half of gaza's population of 2.3 million people is starving, while nine out of 10 people are not eating enough and don't know where their next meal will come from. on thursday, philippe lazzarini, the head of the u.n.'s agency for palestinian refugees, said it has become almost impossible to distribute the small amount of aid israel has allowed into gaza. >> people are stopping aid trucks, taking the food and eating it right away. this is how desperate and hungry they are. i witnessed this firsthand. amy: in the occupied west bank, israeli forces killed an unarmed 17-year-old boy inside the khalil suleiman hospital. médecins sans frontières, or doctors without borders, also witnessed israeli soldiers blocking medical workers in ambulances carrying discharged patients home. drivers were forced to get out of their vehicles, strip down, and kneel in the streets. msf says it's part of a pattern targeting healthcare workers in the west bank since october 7,

which also has included shooting live fire and teargas at hospitals, blocking emergency vehicles, and humiliating and harassing medical staff. outside the hospital compound, israeli soldiers desecrated a mosque in jenin and read out jewish prayers in the style of an islamic call to prayer. this came as part of a three-day israeli raid on the jenin refugee camp, which killed at least 12 palestinians. israeli forces arrested over 100 others. president joe biden said thursday israel's military should be "more careful" to save civilian lives in gaza. his comments thursday came as u.s. national security adviser jake sullivan met prime minister benjamin netanyahu and his war cabinet in tel aviv. israeli defense minister yoav gallant told sullivan israel's campaign in gaza would continue well into 2024.

>> it will take and require along period of time. it will last more than several months. amy: according to the white house, sullivan told israeli leaders the u.s. expects israel's military to soon switch to "lower-intensity operations." the white house did not give a timeline for the change, but "the new york times" cited four unnamed u.s. officials who said biden wants to grant israel three weeks to switch to "more precise tactics." meanwhile, al jazeera has obtained an advance copy of a united nations report detailing the devastating impact of israel's assault on gaza. in it, u.n. secretary-general antonio guterres pleads with the security council to approve a humanitarian cease-fire in gaza. he writes, the magnitude of the campaign against hamas in the

scope of death and destruction in gaza has been unprecedented and unbearable to witness. jewish-led protests on thursday shut down bridges and highways across eight u.s. cities demanding a ceasefire in gaza. the peaceful actions in seattle, philadelphia, los angeles, portland, washington, d.c., chicago, minneapolis, and atlanta came on the eighth and final day of hanukkah. in portland, protesters blocked the burnside bridge as they held a homemade nine-foot menorah and sang hanukkah songs and prayers. >> us jews, we come from long legacies of resistance and resilience. rededication is a theme of hanukkah. so on this last night, we rededicate our lineage of resilience towards the struggle against genocide, against apartheid, against occupation. amy: that protest in oregon. on capitol hill, labor leaders joined progressive congressmembers at a rally

thursday demanding president biden support an immediate ceasefire and allow urgent humanitarian aid, food, and water into gaza. united auto workers president shawn fain spoke alongside congress members cori bush and rashida tlaib. >> the world has seen enough slaughter and devastation. peace is the only path forward. while we call for a cease-fire, we also condemn anti-semitism, islamophobia, anti-arab racism -- all of which are growing in our nation at this moment and must be stopped. amy: leaders with the postal workers union and the united electrical, radio, and machine workers of america are also calling for a ceasefire. meanwhile, biden administration staffers and other u.s. government employees are continuing to demand a permanent ceasefire. dozens gathered for a vigil outside the white house wednesday. staffers concealed their identities with sunglasses and face masks as they read the

names of some of the thousands of palestinians killed in gaza. the house of representatives voted 310-118 to pass an $886 billion military bill on thursday, one day after it won senate approval. its passage came despite concerns over its extension of section 702 of the foreign intelligence surveillance act, which allows for warrant-less surveillance of u.s. citizens. the congressional progressive caucus encouraged its members to oppose the measure, though in the end, just 45 democrats voted against the largest ever national defense authorization act. the aclu said -- "it's incredibly disheartening that congress decided to extend an easily-abused law with zero of the reforms needed to protect all of our privacy." the bill also includes more military funding for ukraine, a 5.2% raise for troops, and a measure preventing the president from withdrawing from nato without congressional approval.

the u.n.'s world food programme reports nearly 50 million people across western and central africa are expected to go hungry next year, warning international funding for humanitarian aid is failing to keep pace with record levels of acute hunger. an analysis published by the wfp this week found more than two-thirds of households in the region cannot afford healthy diets due to a combination of conflict, climate change, and soaring food prices. ollo sib is the world food programme's head of research for western and central africa. >> nearly 80% of the people currently facing food insecurity are located in conflict zones. we impact climate change. this year, there have been prolonged periods of rainfall in certain areas resulting in significant crop losses for farmers. amy: the u.n. is warning hunger in sudan's conflict zones is headed toward famine-like

conditions as some khartoum residents have been surviving on a single, small daily meal. some 30 million people, roughly two thirds of the population, are in need of assistance in sudan according to the u.n. that's double the number before fighting broke out between the sudanese army and rapid support forces in april. the violence and economic woes have devastated sudan's agricultural sector, which has also been hit by below-average rains. meanwhile, residents of the city of omdurman, which lies on the west bank of the nile river, accuse sudanese soldiers of looting and shooting civilians in the ombada district, the only area of the city still controlled by government forces. the rsf has also been accused of looting in areas under its control. a court in senegal has ordered jailed opposition leader ousmane sonko to be reinstated on the electoral roll, paving the way for him to stand in next year's presidential election. sonko, who is expected to be a key challenger of president macky sall, was sentenced in

june to a two-year prison term over an alleged sexual assault, charges he has accused the government of manufacturing to derail his candidacy. in late july, senegalese officials dissolved sonko's patriots of senegal party -- the first time a political party has been banned in the west african nation since its independence from france in 1960. the european union has agreed to open membership talks with ukraine and moldova. leaders of 26 e.u. member states unanimously approved the accession talks thursday after hungary's far-right prime minister viktor orban left the room just before votes were cast. orban, who is widely viewed as an ally of russian president vladimir putin, had threatened to veto ukraine's bid to join the e.u. he appeared to back down after european leaders released more than $10 billion worth of aid to hungary it had withheld after determining orban's nationalist government was failing to uphold the rule of law. meanwhile, hungary's government blocked a european union financial aid package for

ukraine worth $55 billion. talks on that package will resume next year. and brazilian lawmakers have approved a bill making it harder for indigenous communities to make claims about ancestral territory. the law, which overwrites a veto by president luiz inácio lula da silva, says such claims are not valid unless indigenous groups physically occupied the land when the 1988 brazilian constitution was signed. many indigenous communities were expelled for their lands over the course of decades, and putting during the military -- including during the military dictatorship. it comes in a supreme court ruling which rejected the time i for indigenous territorial claims. the new law threatened to open vast portions of indigenous territory to logging, mining, ranching. a congressmember was among the minority of lawmakers who voted against the legislation. >> defeated not only for us, the

indigenous people, it is for the climate agenda. we the indigenous people have been the number one solution to stop the climate crisis and today the congress responded throwing the solution away. amy: she was sitting next to the first indigenous minister of brazil. we will be bringing you an exclusive interview with her next week. brazil supreme court is expected to review whether the new law is constitutional. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. coming up, the acclaimed writer masha gessen who scheduled to receive the hannah arendt pricing germany today but the ceremony was postponed after a major foundation withdrew support for the award after she compared life and gaza to the warsaw ghetto. stay with us.

♪ [music break] amy: "street poetry" by dam.

this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we begin today's show with the acclaimed russian-american writer masha gessen, who was scheduled to receive the prestigious hannah arendt prize in germany today. but the ceremony had to be postponed after one of the award sponsors, the left-leaning heinrich böll foundation, withdrew its support for the prize after masha gessen compared gaza to the warsaw ghetto in a recent article for "the new yorker" titled "in the shadow of the holocaust: how the politics of memory in europe obscures what we see in israel and gaza today." the german city of bremen also withdrew the venue where today's prize ceremony was scheduled to take place. in the essay, masha gessen wrote -- "for the last 17 years, gaza has been a hyperdensely populated, impoverished, walled-in compound where only a small fraction of the population had the right to leave for even a short amount of time -- in other words, a

ghetto. not like the jewish ghetto in venice or an inner-city ghetto in america but like a jewish ghetto in an eastern european country occupied by nazi germany." hannah arendt -- masha gessen went on to write about why the term ghetto is not commonly used to describe gaza. they wrote -- "presumably, the more fitting term 'ghetto' would have drawn fire for comparing the predicament of besieged gazans to that of ghettoized jews. it also would have given us the language to describe what is happening in gaza now. the ghetto is being liquidated." masha gessen's essay sparked some outrage in germany. in its announcement withdrawing support for gessen's prize, the heinrich böll foundation which is tied to that german green party criticizes gessen's essay, saying it "implies that israel aims to liquidate gaza like a nazi ghetto." while the foundation pulled out of the hannah arendt prize

ceremony, a smaller ceremony will take place on saturday at a different venue. for gessen, the controversy in germany comes just days after being added to russia's most wanted list for comments they made about the war in ukraine. masha gesen joins us now from bremen, germany. masha gessen's staff writer at "the new yorker" and author of numerous books, including most recently, "surviving autocracy." welcome back to democracy now! if you can start off by talking about this controversy talking about what you wrote in "the new yorker" magazine and the fact, well, the ceremony has not been completely canceled but just explain what has happened. >> hi, amy. i don't know i've can fully explain what happened because i don't think i quite understand what happened because the foundation first withdrew from

the prize ceremony, causing the city of bremen to withdraw, causing the price organizers to tell me, first of all, they stand by me but also -- oh, and the university where the discussion the day after the prize was supposed to be held also withdrew. this is interesting because the university said they believed having the discussion would violate a law. by the law, i think what they meant was the nonbinding resolution that bans anything connected but the boycott, divestment, sanctions movement, which is nonbinding but has a huge input in germany. that was largely the topic of my article. so then the price organizers

decided to have a smaller ceremony at a different location which i'm not going to mention. then the heinrich böll foundation, after an uproar in german social media and conventional media, issued a new statement saying they stand by the prize but the venue had canceled so they could not host. which i don't think was entirely forthcoming on the part of the heinrich böll foundation when their first record was on -- first it was on record. but that is where we stand now. amy: let's talk about what the heinrich böll foundation is found so controversial. talk about this piece you wrote for "the new yorker" magazine, the comparison you made to gaza and the warsaw ghetto. >> that piece is fairly

wide-ranging. travel to germany, poland, and ukraine and talk about the politics in these countries. a large part of the piece at how you view the war in israel-palestine through the [indiscernible] of the holocaust. a large part of the article is devoted to memory politics in germany and the vast anti-semitism machine, which largely targets people who are critical of israel and are often jewish. this happens to be a description that fits me as well. i am jewish. i come from a family of holocaust survivors. i grew up in the soviet union very much in the shadow of the holocaust. i am critical --

the part that really offended the heinrich böll foundation in the city of bremen and i would imagine some german public is the part you read out loud which is where i make a comparison between gaza before october 7 and a jewish ghetto in nazi -occupied europe. i made that comparison intentionally. it was not what they call a provocation. it was very much the point of the piece. i think the way memory politics function now in europe and in the united states, but particularly in germany, is that the cornerstone issue can't compare the holocaust. it is a singular event that stands outside of history. my argument is in order to learn from history, we have to

compare. like, that actually has to be an exercise. we are not better people or smarter people or for educated people than the people who lived 90 years ago. the only thing that makes us different from those people is that in their imagination, the holocaust did not exist a in hours it does. we know it is possible. the way to prevent it is to be vigilant in the way that hannah arendt and other jewish anchors who survived the holocaust were vigilant and there was an entire conversation, especially in the first two decades after world war ii, in which they really talked about how to recognize the signs of sliding into the dark this both -- darkness. one other thing i want to say is our turf framework of international humanitarian law

is essentially based -- it all comes out of the holocaust. the concept of genocide. i argue that framework is based on the assumption that you are always looking at war, at conflict, at violence through the prism of the holocaust. you always have to be asking the question of whether crimes against humanity come the definitions of which came out of the holocaust, are recurring. israel has waged an incredibly successful campaign at not only setting the holocaust outside of history, but setting itself aside from the objects of international humanitarian law. in part by what the -- the politics of the holocaust. amy: so talk more about that. learning about the holocaust through the idea that it is separate and apart and can be

compared to nothing else versus how we ensure never again anywhere, for anyone. >> i don't know we can ensure never any go where, for anyone. keep knowing it can come out of shallowness. this was very much the point in jerusalem, the banality of evil. this was a book that at arendt ostracized by the israeli mainstream and much of the north american jewish political mainstream. four think she wrote, but also for this very framing of the banality of evil.

it was misinterpreted as trivializing the holocaust. what she was saying is the most horrible things of which humanity has proven capable can grow out of something that seems like nothing, can grow out of the failure to see the fate of the other or the inability to see it. i interpret that as a call to constant vigilance for failure to see the fate of the other, for doubting the kind of overwhelming consensus that certainly in israel and in the north american jewish community appears to back the israeli onslaught on gaza. this is the way in which we stumble into our darkest moments. amy: for people who don't know who hannah arendt is, the jewish

philosopher, political theorist, the author of "the origins of totalitarianism and the human condition: the banality of evi" cover the trial for "the new yorker" magazine, the magazine that masha gessen writes for. masha, last week, an israeli airstrike and gaza city killed the acclaimed hosting academic, activist, poet refaat alareer, along with his brother, sister, and his four nieces. for more than 16 years, alareer worked as a professor of english literature at the islamic university of gaza where he taught shakespeare and other subjects. the father of six and mentor to many young palestinian writers and journalists. he cofounded the organization we are not numbers. in october, democracy now! spoke to refaat alareer who also

compared gaza to the warsaw ghetto. >> we speak about complete devastation and destruction to universities, to schools, to mosques, to clinics, roads, infrastructure, to waterline. i googled this morning also -- warsaw ghetto pictures. and i got pictures i couldn't differentiate. somebody tweeted four pictures and asked to tell which one is from gaza and which one is from the warsaw ghetto. they are remarkably the same, because the perpetrator is almost using the same strategies against a minority, against the oppressed people, the battered people, the besieged people, whether it was in the warsaw ghetto, the jews in warsaw ghetto in the past or the palestinian muslims and christians in the gaza strip. so, the similarity is uncanny. amy: that was refaat alareer, who was killed in gaza by an

israeli airstrike that killed his brother, sister, and four of her daughters. this is scottish actor brian cox the famous for succession, just nominated for a number of emmy's career reading refaat alareer's poem "if i must die" in a video that has gone viral. >> if i must die you must live to tell my story to sell my things to buy a piece of cloth and some strings make it white with a long tail so that a child, somewhere in gaza while looking heaven in the eye awaiting his dad who left in a blaze and bid no one farewell not even to his flesh not even to himself sees the kite, my kite you made, flying up above and thinks for a moment an angel is there bringing back love

if i must die let it bring hope let it be a tale. amy: scottish actor brian cox reciting refaat alareer's poem "if i must die" in the video produced by the palestine festival of literature. masha gessen, if you can comment on both what refaat alareer and you are saying about the warsaw ghetto and the significance of him dying in this strike like so many other palestinians, i think the number, as we speak, were at something like 19,000 palestinians dead, more than 7000 children, more than 5000 -- >> i was not aware he had made this comparison but i'm not particularly surprised because a comparison lies on the surface. the question i have to ask when

writing this, it was why hasn't this comparison been made before? the trope that has been used for at least a dozen years in human rights circles is open air prison. open air prison is not a good descriptor for what was gaza before october 7. there are no prison cells, no prison guards. there is no regimented daily schedule. what there was was isolation. what there was was awol. what there was was the inability of people to leave with the exception of very, very few. what there was was a local force , and in part by the people who built the wall -- and talking about hamas -- that maintained order and this was serviced the needs of the people who built the wall.

it was the bargain that israel had struck five pulling out of gaza was that hamas would maintain order there. obviously, there are huge differences. i am not claiming by any means this is a one-to-one comparison or there is such a thing as a one-to-one comparison that is not a thing. what i'm arguing is the similarities are so substantial, they can actually form our understanding of what is happening now. what is happening now, this is probably the line in the piece that made a lot of people throw their laptops across the room, what is happening now is the ghetto is -- i think that is an important thing to say. not just because it is important to call thanks -- describe things in the best possible way we can, but in the name of never again, we have to ask if this is like a ghetto and if what we are

witnessing now in this indiscriminate killing, in -- displaced almost all of the people of gaza, that has made them homeless, if that is substantially similar to what we saw in some places during the holocaust, then what is the world going to do about it? what is the world going to do in the name of never again? amy: masha gessen, the cancellations of speeches, of festivals that are seen as pro-palestinian are on the rise. you have taught at bard for years. you know the kind of pressure that professors and students are being brought under all over the united states. you are in germany right now. i am wondering if you can comment on this? some are calling it a new

mccarthyism. interestingly, like you, so many of the protesters are jews, jewish students, jewish professors. but when this ceremony was first canceled and postponed, what kind of response did you get from the press? was it an avalanche of interest? especially in germany where people like ready to break him the young climate activist, spoke up for gaza and got pilloried in the german press. >> funny should ask. i was making my way after having woke up to an email that this was all going on, and i started seeing reports that were wildly inaccurate. they said the price had been rescinded, which it never was. i can't stand up to expose my appreciation. i think they shielded me from how much pressure they have come

under as a result of this controversy. but i felt for hosted and supported by them but the media were reporting all sorts of things and also making biographical facts about me. not a single german reporter contacted me and only one u.s. reporter contacted me, reporter from "the washington post." so i tweeted about it. it is like i reminded journalists, that is what we do. we actually call people to find out what happened. i have been talking to the media now nonstop for the last 28 hours. i almost wish i had not tweeted it but i also think it is very important to try and have this conversation in a meaningful way. i've been concentrating mostly on german media. every single german media outlet

i have heard of has reached out to me. i don't think it's they did not want give me a voice, they have aggregating news that is become so ingrained that people forget the substance of our profession is to tell people what happened. amy: "go to where the silences." masha gessen, i want to ask about another issue, russian police placed you on a wanted list. the kremlin has accused you of spreading false information over your remarks about the massacre of ukrainian civilians by russian forces in the city of bucha in march 2022. can you comment? >> it has been quite a week. i kinda feel like i want to stop making news. but it is not crazy to me that i was placed on a russian wanted

list as running into trouble with german authorities. because i think there is a kind of politics -- this is what you referred to in the first part of your earlier question, which is the thing some are referring to as the new mccarthyism. it is the most boring part of domestic western politics, both here and in the united states, that the right wing is writing the course of anti-semitism in germany, the far right anti-immigrant party, has been using antisemitism as a cudgel -- as a cudgel against a lot of anti-israeli policy voices, many

of which belong to jews. and i think we have observed with the university presidents been called into congress in the united states is -- has similarities. least a phonic -- at least a phonic -- it is also based on profoundly anti-semitic worldview. elise stefanik is using the university presidents to attack liberal institutions, to attack ivy league universities. i think in her imagination, and i think we know enough to know this is how her imagination is working. she is trying to get donors to withdraw funding to undermine these institutions. in her imagination, the jews

control the money so the donors are jews. this is the most basic anti-semitic trope. the fact the right is able to hijack the issue of anti-semitism so effectively is dangerous. anti-semitism is real. antisemitism, right-wing politicians, mix anti-so to sum with fake anti-semitism -- actual anti-semitism with fake anti-semitism. what we end up with is a modal picture in which jews are being used in antisemitic views are being reaffirmed and real and test them to some becomes a bigger danger. amy: i want to end with another victim of the holocaust, lgbtq community, russian supreme court recently banned lgbtq plus

activism in a landmark decision. amnesty international blasted as shameful and absurd. the ruling isn't part of the reason you left the soviet union ? you left russia to begin with? we just have a minute but if you could comment. >> next week's tenure since i was forced to leave russia because of the anti-gay campaign that was already underway in russia and the kremlin was threatening to go after my family. amy: masha gessen, we thank you so much for joining us, staff writer at "the new yorker" magazine, distinguished writer and resident at bard award-winning russian-american , journalist, author of numerous books, including most recently, "surviving autocracy." masha's most recent piece for "the new yorker" is headlined

"in the shadow of the holocaust: how the politics of memory in europe obscures what we see in israel and gaza today." we will link to it at democracynow.org. masha gessen has been speaking to us from bremen, germany, where they will be receiving the hannah arendt at a different venue, not sponsored by as many organizations as originally were sponsoring that award. when we come back, we go to jenin, the occupied west bank to speak with the artistic director of the freedom theater jail this week. and we will speak to peter schumann, the 89-year-old cofounder of bread and puppet theater about his legendary troupe. the performances this week here in new york stuff back in 20 seconds.

♪ [music break] amy: "how can i keep from singing" by pete seeger. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we turn now to the occupied west bank israel has killed at least 12 palestinians during a three-day rate on the jenin refugee camp, the largest raid there in 20 years. on wednesday, israeli soldiers raided the freedom theater in jenin, a renowned cultural institution whose mission is to fight for palestinian justice, equality, self-determination. the theater has been repeatedly

targeted by israeli forces since 2006. 2011, 1 of the theater's founders was assassinated. in july, the theater was struck in an israeli drone strike. we're joined now by ahmed tobasi used to taint and beaten this week. two of his colleagues remain attained, including the general manager was tough at shadow. thank you so much for being with us. describe where you are sitting right now and then what happened to you this week. we are seeing a raid that is one of the largest that israel -- i mean, frequently raids jenin. one time it killed the al jazeera reporter. if you can talk about what has happened now? >> there is nowhere to -- i could not find a way to describe

the pain that we have as a palestinian and especially the people in jenin and jenin cap. i'm am sitting in my office and mustafa's office. everything is destroyed. you see all this mess. i don't know why. it isn't theater. it is not a military base. it is not an artillery house. it is not in armed place. there are books, pictures, instruments. all of it has been destroyed. the whole theater, all computers, all offices are destroyed. before yesterday, i was in my house which is in front of the theater and i know i was waiting

there going to come check out the house because they're going house to house and arresting everyone from jenin, 60, 50 years old. they're going house by house. and then they broke the door of my house. i told them, please, their children here. we are a whole family here. we can do whatever you want. there's no need for violence. there's no need to do anything. but quickly, then put the guns on me. they put me down and started to beat. i did not know why. was selling them -- they stormed in and broke all the house. they broke everything. they took my brother. the children were screaming and crying. they were screaming because i

understand a little hebrew. they were swearing at the children. they were screaming at my mom and dad, which are old people. then they started to beat me. then they handcuffed me. they took me and put even some army clothes on me, and they started taking pictures of me. to show. while i was under arrest, under the guns, and they were taking these pictures of me. they put me in a truck and took me and threw me in the mud. it was raining. they threw me beside the street. i don't understand what is going on. they going to drive on me? are they going to kill me? did they put me in another truck and took me to another place.

they started to do an immediate interrogation about my identity. it was very cold. it was a torture, psychological torture. all the time the soldiers go around you with their guns touching you and your just waiting the moment when they're going to shoot you or drive on you or smash you. they take you from place to place, place to place. they let you walk step no shoes -- they let you walk with no shoes in the mud. i cannot describe -- this takes me directly to 2002 when i was 17 years old. it is exactly the same thing

happening. the israelis have the ability to bring you back 20 years. for me, i'm wondering how long this is going to happen again and again in the same way. cannot do anything. we as palestinians, we are too b ored of this life, this legacy of the world that they are promising humanity, promising democracy. i cannot go on again. we as palestinians, we are at the point where we could not wait for another promise. we have to do something. but even though we still in the freedom theater, cultural, a picture -- artistic place where we have children, young people, girls, boys, women come here to practice, to find a place where they could express themselves, where they can imagine a better

life, better place. where they can decide their future and endeavor -- in different place. still the israelis come and tells come you cannot dream, you cannot think you can be something different. you are under occupation and -- crazy, violent occupation that they don't believe in anything. they arrest us as artists, as people in the theater. they destroy everything that shows culture that is art, that we palestinians are normal people. the israeli people believe we are not human beings, that is why they are killing us. that is why they destroy theaters and cultural places because also they believe no one

in this world can ask them to stop. no one can tell them, you can't do this. they believe as israelis they could do whatever they want and no one can tell them what you are doing. so i am asking the people of this world come as the main founders of the freedom theater, must believing -- going to be a cultural, artistic intifada. we are asking all around the world, we have to fight not just for palestinians, we have to fight this planet, for the humanity, for each community and country still under colonization or occupation. this planet is very important that we can live together without all this hate and violence stop that the only country creating this making it

unstable is israel. amy: i want to play the words of the cofounder of the jenin freedom theater killed in 2011 in jenin, shot by masked assailants. we spoke to him when he was in the united states. he spoke about the theater's mission that you're sitting in right now, the theater that is once again ransacked. >> my name is juliano. i'm the director of the theater in the jenin refugee camp. freedom theater is a venue to join the palestinian people in their struggle for liberation. we believe the third intifada should be cultural with poetry

and music, theater, cameras. this place never had a theater. this place never was exposed to the arts. actually, we're building everything from scratch. we're building capacity actors, audience. sometimes it is easier to create actors that audience. we are dealing with the young generation to the arts. the location of the freedom theater -- don't let this view deceive you. we're sitting in a refugee camp in palestine. we're talking about almost 3000 children under the age of 15 suffering from posttraumatic stress disorder. it means they cannot concentrate. they cannot deal with each other without violence. amy: that was a promotional video that juliano did for the

jenin freedom theater, talking about the theater's mission. we are right now in the jenin theater, the freedom theater with one of the people who ahmed tobasi, now the artistic director -- juliano was assassinated in 2011. ahmed tobasi, you were held for 24 hours. the general manager of the theater mustafa sheta is still being held. do you know what is happening to him? and scores of men who have been taken at this point, israel saying they are hamas? >> you know, in a way, the freedom theater being attacked all the time, the jenin camp being attacked all the time, the israelis have no differences to

look at the organizations like freedom theater, just stick cultural organizations which should be safe as an international organization. at the same time, mustafa sheta and i was taken, and taken into other place which is clearly that they're going to hold him. we still don't have any information about him. soon after this program i will go to his family just the if they have any news about him but for sure many are trying to push -- to get some information or at least to push to release him. another student was also arrested yesterday. even our kids come after july invasion, being killed in front of the invasion, we now have three young people who have been killed from the children theater.

still 15 years, 20 years we work in building this place. it has been destroyed in july. we fix it again. now after two or three months again, they come and destroy everything. they even stole the computers. it is crazy. this army has no moral. they are not soldiers, they are just leaves. -- thieves. we spoke to a lawyer and he is going to start looking for information and see what the situation of mustafa, but for sure the israels don't give information. he may be under interrogation and that is what we are worrying about because also the head of the theater being already one year, rested before one year and there is no clear evidence about news about him.

as an artist and palestine, that is the way we live our lives. that is the way we do our theater, our work in art. we are not looked at in a different way, but that is our mission. that is my mission, to keep the freedom theater open, to save juliano's legacy and to keep fighting for the same things we believe. we know in palestine, to be an artist, there is also a chance you will be arrested or killed even. amy: i want to end today show, if you will stay with us, ahmed, with another theater director, peter schumann, the 89-year-old cofounder of the legendary bread and puppet leader here in new york at the theater for new city , with a show that is an ode to gaza. i went to it last night. peter, we'll have a minute and we will continue the

conversation after with ahmed, but if you want to share your thoughts with ahmed right now as you are doing -- what you're doing as he called for solidarity with his theater? >>, my god, amy, just to listen to this report of ahmed and his company, i am crying all the way through it with fury. it is unbearable. to think this stupid organization calls for freedom and democracy, some -- amy: you cannot curse on the air. >> ok, no more cursing. unbelievable that this is a congress of cowards, president

of an idiot. unbelievable what this country is supporting. i don't get it. it isn't just israel at all. amy: let me ask in the last 30 seconds, ahmed tobasi, about the u.s. position and if you have a message for president biden? >> i am sorry for the american that all the support of taxpayers goes to israel to kill children and kill women. for me, this money should go to create art and culture, to build theaters, to build artistic and cultural organizations all over the world. to save artists and china and russia and even in u.s. i want this money to not create weapons. and americans, you are getting

her picture in a way, not the right way because all of this military support and crazy support goes to change your picture as a human. i believe our friends in america, we have -- amy: we have to leave it there. ahmed tobasi