01/25/24 01/25/24 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> there is no safe area. where shall we go? it is enough. we are drained. everyone is drained. children are gone and adults are gone. everyone is gone and the world is watching. amy: the death toll in gaza

continues to climb as israel attacks shelters for the displaced and aid distribution sites. we will go to rafah for the latest. israel has agreed to send millions and withheld tax revenues earmarked for gaza to go to norway instead of to the palestinian authority. we will go to ramallah to speak with the palestinian economist raja khalidi. at the new york police department has launched an investigation after columbia university students were attacked with a chemical spray during a pro-palestine demonstration last week, with eight of them seeking medical attention. >> for a while the university did not believe us. i told them about it and it is like my concerns were not really being taken seriously. it was not until students started posting photos of themselves being hospitalized

and tagging the university that they started taking it seriously. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. al jazeera is reporting at least 20 palestinians died earlier today when an israeli tank fired shells at people lining up for humanitarian supplies. another 150 were injured. this comes the day after at least 12 palestinians were killed when israeli tanks shelled the shelter and khan younis where hundreds had sought refuge. at least 75 people were injured in the attack which resulted in a major fire. israel denies carrying out the attack.

israel's assault on khan younis has left the city facing a growing humanitarian crisis. authorities at nasser hospital say supplies of food and aesthetics and painkillers have run out. israel also continues to attack the southern city of rafah or hundreds of thousands of displaced palestinians have fled seeking safety. >> we are displaced and they bombed as. my son is a martyr. we were told to go to route 5 because it is safe. i have 50 families staying over. where do we go? where is the safe place that we could go to? my nationality is egyptian but i can't enter or leave. i don't even have a tent to stay at. they bombed as an my son is a young martyr. where do we go? where do we go? amy: on wednesday, british foreign secretary david cameron met with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. cameron told sky news he pushed netanyahu to accept a pause in

the fighting. >> it is time for an immediate pause in the fighting because we cannot only get the aid in, but we have to get those hostages out. what i think we can do now is plan how you turn that pause into a permanent sustainable ceasefire without return to fighting. amy: this all comes as the death toll in gaza has topped 25,700, including over 11,000 children. the international court of justice has announced it will deliver an interim ruling on friday in south africa's genocide case against israel. south africa has asked the court to impose a number of emergency measures, including a halt israel's assault on gaza. this comes as a new poll in the united states shows more than a third of americans now believe israel is committing genocide against the palestinians. in tel aviv, thousands of israelis shut down a major highway wednesday demanding the

government reach an immediate deal to return the over 130 hostages still held in gaza. the protest was led by a number of women's groups and families of israeli hostages. meanwhile, hundreds of israeli protesters have gathered at the kerem shalom crossing for a second day in an attempt to block a convoy of humanitarian aid trucks from entering gaza. the protesters are demanding no aid to be sent to gaza until all of the hostages are released. the bbc has revealed new details about how the united arab emirates hired u.s. mercenaries to carry out over 100 assassinations in yemen beginning in 2015. targets included politicians, imams, and members of civil society. two of the mercenaries who worked for spear operations group spoke to the bbc and admitted taking part in the assassination program. >> if we felt like, ok, see a,

he's good to go. >> who gave you the targets? how did you receive them? >> intelligence packets. >> how many cards did you receive? >> 10 to start. >> and one of them was -- amy: u.s. africa command said tuesday u.s. strikes in somalia killed three members of al-shabaab sunday. somalia is the fourth country the u.s. has bombed since the start of the year in addition to yemen, iraq, and syria. in labor news, the united autoworkers have endorsed joe biden for president. biden addressed autoworkers during a labor conference in washington on wednesday. biden's speech was interrupted when uaw members stood up and called for him to support a ceasefire in gaza. pres. biden: -- staircase.

no matter what that was -- >> usa! amy: the endorsement comes even though uaw has publicly called for a ceasefire while biden refuses to, leading some members to oppose the endorsement. uaw president shawn fain also spoke wednesday and thanked the president for joining striking autoworkers on the picket line during the union's recent standup strike against the big three. fain used part of his speech to blast biden's likely challenger, donald trump. >> donald trump is a scab! [applause] donald trump is a billionaire and that is who he represent!

amy: the ohio senate voted to override governor mike dewine's veto of an anti-trans bill, banning gender affirming medical treatment for youth. the house also voted to override the republican governor's veto earlier this month. the law, which also bars transgender students from school sports, is set to go into effect in 90 says. the transgender advocacy group transohio said it has been in touch with dozens of families who feel under attack and plan to leave the state. in minnesota, prosecutors charged a state trooper with second-degree murder for the fatal shooting of ricky cobb ii, a black man, during a traffic in -- traffic stop in minneapolis last year. 33-year-old cobb was a father of five. trooper ryan londregan, who is white, shot cobb after he attempted to flee in his car while being questioned during a traffic stop. mary moriarty, hennepin county's top prosecutor, vowed to hold police accountable after being elected in 2022 as the city was still reeling from the 2020 police murder of george floyd.

a federal judge has sentenced a january 6 insurrectionist and proud boys member to six years in prison. during his sentencing hearing, marc bru of washington state told the judge, "you could give me 100 years and i would still do it all over again." during the insurrection, bru harassed u.s. capitol officers, prevented them from moving forward using a barricade, and took selfies inside the government building. prosecutors say that after january 6, bru tried to organize another violent insurrection in portland, oregon. over 1200 people have so far been charged with crimes related to the capitol insurrection. in alabama, prison officials are scheduled to execute prisoner kenneth smith today using nitrogen gas asphyxiation for the first time ever. on wednesday, the u.s. supreme court rejected smith's plea to halt the execution. his lawyers argued attempting to execute him for a second time, after he survived a botched

lethal injection in 2022, constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. another appeal remains pending before a circuit court over using the untested method of execution via nitrogen gas. a high-profile italian non-profit linked to the vatican spoke out against smith's planned execution this week. this is mario marazziti, italian journalist, politician, and death penalty abolition advocate. >> kenneth smith's execution -- it sets a new standard, lowers humanity the level of a state that has a frenzy and a killing fury against one individual. so it is the litmus test for the

level of civilization today if we loosen the battle of life and death just becomes normal. amy: in texas, state authorities continue to bar federal border patrol agents from accessing its border with mexico, defying a supreme court order issued this week. texas troopers are still erecting razor along the border, which has cut off most of shelby park near eagle pass, a city park on the banks of the rio grande. on wednesday, a texas official says a 35-year-old man from nicaragua drowned in the rio grande. two others were rescued. last week, a mother and her two young children died in the area while attempting to cross the river. meanwhile, on capitol hill, donald trump is reportedly pressuring republican senators to reject a bipartisan border bill because he is concerned passage of the legislation could help joe biden's reelection chances in november.

in argentina, labor unions led tens of thousands of protesters in a general strike against president javier milei's so -called shock therapy economic policies. since taking office last month, milei has ordered massive spending cuts, shut down half of the government's ministries, devalued the peso by more than 50% against the dollar, ordered the deregulation of business and the privatization of state-run industries, and cracked down on the right to protest. this is guillermo pacagnini of the workers' socialist movement party. >> what are we demanding? for the fall of decree of necessity and urgency that seeks to give public power to president milei. what we what? for the omnibus bill to fall. it does not only take away our social rights, transforms the right to protest into a crime. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we begin today in gaza, where

the death toll continues to climb amid israel's relentless assault. at least 20 palestinians were killed today and 150 injured as they were lining up for humanitarian aid in gaza city, this according to the palestinian health ministry, with the number of casualties expected to rise. the attack comes one day after a crowded u.n. shelter housing tens of thousands of displaced palestinians in khan younis was struck on wednesday setting the building on fire. at least 12 people were killed and over 75 wounded when two tank shells hit the site according to the u.n. agency for palestinian refugees, known as unwra. the israeli military, the only actor on the ground that has tanks, denied it carried out the strike. meanwhile, the israeli army has surrounded and isolated the two main hospitals in khan younis -- nasser and al-amal -- stranding hundreds of patients and thousands of displaced people

inside. again, according to unwra. a third hospital was evacuated overnight. in recent days, thousands more palestinians have rushed to escape further south, crowding into shelters and tent camps near the border with egypt. over 1.7 million people have been displaced in gaza and more than 25,000 have been killed in israel's assault over the past three months. we go now to rafah where we are joined by akram al-sattari, a journalist who has been covering developments on the grounds. he is joining us from just outside the yousef al-najar hospital in rafah, the southernmost city in gaza. welcome back to democracy now! can you describe what is happening in rafah and reports of what is happening in khan younis? >> the situation is aggravating in a very serious way. the apartments and targeting around the hospitals you

mentioned, it was stormed by the israeli forces. nasser hospital has been the subject of massive attacks. shelters located in the vicinity of the nasser hospital. a clinic in the heart of khan younis refugee camp was also targeted. people were asked to leave their homes but some people who are leaving their homes were reporting about a journey of devastation they have seen. they have been reporting about seeing people dead on the ground without anyone daring to reach them or collect their bodies or extend a helping hand for the people who are screaming for help. the kycc run by unwra and

recognized as a designated shelter was targeted once again now people who are staying there are asked by the israeli occupation to move from that area toward rafah in the very south, which means there's more targeting on the way, which means they would be -- the situation is aggravating. hundreds of people are injured. people are killed. and gaza city, the people who are waiting cut were targeted. they were waiting for humanitarian assistance because the situation in gaza city in the north is extremely dire. people are suffering from famine.

lacking situation when it comes to food supplies and drinkable water. 20 were killed. 150 others were injured. among those 150, there's a very large number of people who are sustaining very critical, life-threatening injuries and might be reported as killed, which means the number of victims of the bloody attack is expected to rise significantly in the coming hours. large-scale bombardment in khan younis. destroying of whole blocks and houses. people are moving and in-depth are targeted when they are moving. -- people are moving and then they are targeted when they are moving. people who moved from the north to gaza city then moved from gaza city to the central area and then move from there to khan younis and from khan younis they

moved to the kycc and are asked again to leave the area that they were seeking safety in and to move in a very unsafe path toward the unknown in the south of gaza, rafah, which the targeting is still continuous. a number of people killed in rafah is increasing. 1.9 million gazans in all different areas including the coastal area khan younis and already high really populated area of rafah. amy: idp is internally displaced people. if you can describe the telecommunications blackout and the effect it has on people trying to communicate with each other, find each other, get to hospitals, reporting of injuries. and also i don't take for granted we are even able to speak to you today in rafah, in gaza. if you can talk about how you

both report and take care of your own family. >> well, if i may speak from a very personal perspective, i personally was under that imminent threat of death in khan younis. i lost communication with my family, with my sister, with my nephews and nieces who lost their father. i lost contact with my son. i was wondering how i could simply survive under the eminent threat of fire. when i state imminent risk of fire and death, i mean seven people were targeted at the door of our home, the host home that was hosting us. seven people, no one ambulance could reach them. we were trying to call 111 -- 101, which is the ambulance service. we could not get through to them. the communication blackout looks like it was intentional for the sake of cutting all committed patient and cutting the coverage

and trying to keep gaza isolated from the world and keep gaza hopeless at the time the israeli occupation was developing the ground occupation and targeting the different areas in khan younis and throughout the gaza strip. i lost given occasion and i was facing significant challenges reporting, moving. -- i lost communication and i was facing significant challenges reporting, thing. you don't know whether they're going to target someone that is working on the street, someone next to you for maybe they will target you. it is very difficult to understand in gaza what is coming next. it is difficult to predict who they are going to target. it is difficult to predict why they are targeting people. the bottom line we see with our own eyes is the targeting is thorough, the destruction is larger than ever, and the suffering of people because of the ongoing -- is an conceivable.

an conceivable innocence that i personally had to move and try to move. five or six other houses around me were targeted, why i see deadly fire taking out a whole house when i was moving in the khan younis area. waiting for the situation to be -- turns out the situation was getting from bad to worse and the targeting was getting heavier. 111, a block designated earlier as a safe area. an earlier, the block was 112. but the bombardment was in 111, 112, 86 -- all of the blocks were targeted at once. destruction all over the area. with that comes -- the struggle

to survive, stay sane under this ever escalating situation. to look for one minute of peace. i was personally thinking yesterday that we are wanting one second of rest and peace, even if that means we will die, even if that means they will take us, even if that means they take our life. this is how it unfolded in gaza. this is how it continues to unfold. people are dying. people are scared. people are displaced. they think they are even -- intentionally. there -- the occupation has been targeting every single corner of khan younis. khan younis is extremely overpopulated. when you target one house in a specific area, is that means you're are likely to affect around 20 to 30 houses because the areas are very narrow and

the space is limited for every house. it means that the explosion would reach for the secondary wave of explosion would reach 20 to 30 houses. amy: did you know the reporters killed most recently? the numbers are astonishing. the committee to protect journalists or reporters without borders, are all decrying the number ranging between 80 and 120. at the latest telling of journalists, for example, wael's son hamza. did you knowmoustafa? i know wael has just gotten out of gaza and he is now -- has not been operated on in qatar, now at al jazeera headquarters.

his cameraman who died in the attack. these reporters, where they friends of yours? i think we have just lost akram al-satarri. amazing we were able to maintain that length of time in speaking to him in gaza. he was speaking to us from rafah . akram al-satarri is a gaza-based journalist joining us from southern gaza. when we come back, palestinian tax revenue, israel is refusing to release it but has aid in agreement with norway to hold it in escrow. what is happening to palestinians money? we will speak with a leading economist in ramallah. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: "fil 'ula shahid" by ahmed eid. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. israel's assault on gaza has

exacted a devastating toll, with over 25,000 people killed, 63,000 wounded, and 1.7 million at least displaced. and among the consequences of the offensive is the decimation of gaza's economy. even before the latest israeli assault on gaza began over three months ago, gaza's economy was already crumbling, the result of a 15-year-long siege on the territory enforced by israel and egypt. now with vast swaths of gaza destroyed by the israeli military and severe restrictions on humanitarian aid coming in, more than half a million people are facing catastrophic hunger according to the u.n. meanwhile, israel is withholding millions in taxes collected on behalf of palestinians earmarked for gaza. on sunday, israel approved a plan to send those tax revenues it has frozen since november to norway to be held in escrow instead of the palestinian authority. while the pa was ousted from

gaza in 2007, many of its public sector workers kept their jobs and continue to be paid with transferred tax revenues that are being withheld by israel, further exacerbating the crisis in gaza. for more, we are joined by raja khalidi. he is the director-general of the palestine economic policy research institute. he joins us from ramallah in the occupied west bank. thank you so much for being with us. if you can start off by talking about whose money is this? and talk about the amount that is supposed to go to gaza and the west bank and how israel has control over it. why do they have control over it? >> thank you a lot, amy, for this chance to talk with you. before plunging into the dirty details of the economics of this war, i want to say a word of tribute to the journalist like akram, so many who have been reporting, who have been shocking as every day and what

is more shocking, talking about millions of us watching and listening around the world, what is most shocking is they are still able to do their jobs so well and so professionally. we will come back to gaza, but you don't need an economist to tell you to what is happened to the economy of gaza. the entanglement of palestinian authorities public finances with israel is -- goes back to oslo. it has come back home to oslo. in the since this is all part of an arrangement made for a five-year period whereby israel was allowed de facto when oslo agreements were signed to control the collection of palestinian external trade taxes at his supporters because it controls all of the palestinian -- both that trade that comes from israel's economy as well as

from around the world. that set up a mechanism whereby all of the recorded imports through israel or to israel through the pa are calculated and handed over in a monthly basis to the palestinian authority. this was a suitable arrangement in the interim period that was supposed to end in 2000, but that was perpetuated if nothing took its place since then. gradually, interpreted unilaterally by israel in its own -- according to his own financial security and political interests. from early on, this mechanism became one of the weapons, if you wish, of economic warfare. pacification -- carrot or stick that israel has used with palestine, the palestinian people.

that has entailed over the years, especially the last five or six years, unilateral deduction israel makes. it makes deductions for electricity consumption that it claims has not been paid, for water/sewage treatment, and for other medical referrals to israeli hospitals. and then something the pa came to accept because it had no physical leverage against israel, and in the last five years, israel has been deducting sums equivalent to what the pa pace to the prisoners and martyrs families. 11 protest by the pa but with -- a loud protest by the pa but with little effect. nobody has done anything about. the most recent unilateral decision by extremists settler government to deduct what they claim is the equivalent of what

the pa continues to pay salaries to its former employees -- not mainly working in the west bank -- you know, is something what's going to pa to do? it tried to reject it on principle but on the other hand, is collapsing. the whole situation is near disastrous. exactly what this entails, this escrow account, if it means the pa can say well at least israel is not holding the money it illegally deducted and we reject totally, ok, that will allow us to stumble through the next couple of months perhaps, make some new debt refinancing deals, etc., with the banking system, and eventually hope when things calm down, smut ridge will allow the norwegians to release the funds. perhaps it is better to have the norwegians holding -- it doesn't really change the equation

except it blocks the certain amount of palestinian trade revenue. on the other hand, with to realize this trade revenue is directly linked to activity in the west bank that has collapsed. not as much as gaza, not economy, but in the west bank it is been more about return of workers from israel and what they're no longer spending in the local economy for four months. the cut off of clearance revenues but the general reduction in activity means we're reporting less. if we are reporting less, there's less revenue. amy: so talk about the affects on the ground of not having this money and who exactly in the current government is deciding who gets what?

you talk about smotrich. there is ben-gvir, netanyahu. what is happening in the west bank? what is happening in gaza? and where does the u.s. stand on this? that is a critical shipment because the u.s. actually can exert so much control given as one israeli general said, that almost all of their weapons are from the united states. that they could not move ahead with what they're doing with gaza without u.s. support. >> it is arguable how much control the u.s. actually has on this government to begin with, but regardless of that, we know the united states does not want exercise any serious influence on this for example. all they can do is come up with is darwin escrow account to which does not really do anything -- come up with this norway escrow account, which does not really do anything.

maybe it will mean the pa can borrow, which you should be able to do because it is supposedly a government, on internationally to fund part of the deficit. at that is another stopgap measure. the pa, there are very few decision-makers. the president and the prime minister and the minister of finance. they're going and coming i presume with -- trying to come up with something that keeps the treasury able to pay part of its salaries bill. the salary bill and the west bank is about $4 billion a year, which is about 80% of the public ajit. that has already been cut prior to the war because of the deductions we mentioned. so salaried employees are receiving less pay and less able to pay their debts which they have taken out in extreme ways

or private consumption debts the last five or six years. in the good times, so to speak. then you have all of that reduction in aggregate demand from the non-purchasing power and then you have the workers who have returned from israel, 180,000, maybe 150,000 of whom were sitting in the ledges and camps wedding for something to happen and nothing is happening -- in villages and camps waiting something to happen and nothing is happening. they become lazy, if you wish, or the ever force has become dependent let's say on the option of working in israel which brings in two to three times local wages. there is a major transformation undergoing in the local economy. extreme poverty will be increasing in the west bank, which less sitter incidents in the past. -- less sitter incidents in the past. social deprivation.

as of have money to pay services to the poor. education is continuing but -- so on and so forth. i don't want to call it a collapse to deliver services, but -- amy: let me ask you about the labor situation. so many thousands of palestinians worked in israel proper. israel is looking to address the major labor shortage because not allowing palestinians for the occupied territories to work in israel. but by recruiting tens of thousands of people from india at a time when palestinians have long played a crucial role in israeli construction and other sectors who are now barred, israeli authorities say they're hoping to see 10000 and 20,000 indian migrant workers in the

coming months, a deal being worked out with the prime minister of india narendra modi. what about this? >> 10,000 to 20,000 is not going to really do anything except get the next agricultural season crop in and build a few buildings that have been waiting. proximally 90,000, 80 5000 palestinians of the total 180,000 -- more than half were working in israel, israeli construction. our labor force is highly dependent -- [indiscernible] replacing part of that, stopgap measure. agriculture, i think they're trying to do something similar with workers from africa. there is a reason, let's say gulf states, the asian labor force has built the gulf

countries, if you wish, israel does not want to find itself in that situation. the exportation of palestinian workers is easy. they are next-door. they go home at night. they're not going to make trouble. on the other hand, -- israel is culturally not very open to pick people of color, even jews and palestinians of color. i think these asian and wherever they might come from, african workers, are going to face a lot of issues in the discrimination and what is in apartheid jewish labor market. palestinians from the west bank had a certain position prior to the war. so this sort of hierarchy. then you have arabs in israel that are slightly higher up the

ladder. where these asian workers were not going to go home at night, where -- how they're going to integrate them, i don't think this a viable option. but the other option of israel, you mentioned smotrich. he is one of those dead against such a return of palestinian labor into israeli markets. they can't have their cake and eat it too. i would hope a certain amount -- i think for sure a certain number will be allowed in gradually. i fear it will be a chain gang-like circumstance with high-security around them, only a few hours, etc., etc. there will be a lot of room for exploitation by bosses and contractors and people issue permits and things like that. i think that is the way the 1 --

i think that is the way that one will play out. amy: you are sitting in ramallah . the occupied west bank, the israeli military has raided rommel, bethlehem, jenin repeatedly, as well as other areas. if you could describe what it is like living there on the ground, not to mention what is happening in gaza? and if you see any kind of end of this violence insight? >> it is frightening. i have not left ramallah last few months except three times. many people are living, sheltering in place. 50,000 have not left jerusalem in the last performance where as they are usually coming and going to ramallah and around the west bank all the time. there is a sense of fear, of lack of mobilization except at the local level.

there's no national authority engaging and confronting other the settler attacks or the expansion of settlements. we are seeing settlements come outposts, and roads popping up every day on the roads between the major palestinian cities. roadblocks from 50 to 700. i have never lived in palestine under such situations. i perhaps have greater access but it is not easy for anybody. people trying to get to work, people trying to get to hospitals, and there is the violence. if you go down the wrong road, some seller gang will stone your car, burn it, whatever. that is not to mention the israeli army campaign -- you mentioned several cities have been devastated. tens of nights of dollars of infrastructure.

-- tens of manes of dollars of infrastructure. it is telling us what is in store for us. if anybody raises their head. to be honest, gaza is a total catastrophe but it could get worse if we continue in the west bank. if we get to ceasefire, i hope it ispr we are at the precipice of a warlike situation in the west bank and we don't have any resistance fighters in the sense -- it is really everybody in the west bank who is going to be going into this. amy: raja khalidi is the director-general of the palestine economic policy research institute. next up, the new york police department has launched an investigation after columbia university students were attacked with the chemical spray during a demonstration last week. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. students at columbia university in new york held an emergency protest wednesday over the school's response to an attack on members of columbia university apartheid divest, rally last friday. police are now investigating how

pro-palestinian students were sprayed with a hazardous foul-smelling chemical at last friday's protest, including members of students for justice for palestine, jewish voice for peace, and jews for ceasefire. eight students were hospitalized or seeking medical attention. organizers allege the attack was carried out by two students who were former members of the israeli military, idf, using a chemical weapon known as "skunk" that soldiers also deployed on palestinians. a palestinian-american student named layla described the attack she says has left her traumatized in an interview with the podcast "the robust opposition." >> i remember smelling this smell in the air and it was atrocious. i was like, it smells like somebody died. what is this smell? at first i was like, ok, maybe i

stepped in dog poop, maybe i am just tired. i tried to ignore it for a little bit. after the protest when the protest was done, i noticed how bad i felt. i felt so sick. i felt fatigue. i had a really bad headache. i was like, something is going on here. then i'm getting texts and calls for my friends like, did you smell that smell? or my friend was like, oh, my gosh, i threw up three times. i don't know what is wrong with me. this has been used on peaceful protesters in the west bank. it has been used on shopkeepers and merchants. so for merchant gets their produce sprayed with scott, that to throw it out because of how bad it stinks. it felt for a while like the university did not believe us. i told them about it and it is like my concerns were not really

being taken seriously. it was not till until people started posting photos of themselves being hospitalized and tagging the university that they started taking it seriously. amy: that's palestinian-american columbia university student layla describing friday's attack on her as well as other students who were part of a protest. no arrests have been made yet. the school now says it has banned the suspects from campus while law enforcement investigates. for more we're joined by mahmood mamdani, professor of government at columbia university who specializes in the study of colonialism. his books include "neither settler nor native: the making and unmaking of permanent minorities" and his recent interview with the nation is headlined "the idea of the nation-state is synonymous with genocide." and we're joined by katherine franke, a columbia law school professor who is a member of the center for palestine studies' executive committee and on the board of palestine legal.

helped write a new op-ed in the campus paper "the columbia spectator" headlined "faculty and staff pledge to take back our university." we welcome you both to democracy now! can you explain what happened, the skunking of the students sprayed with this chemical? does the university know who the students were? where they came from? have they been dealt with? >> good morning. the students were protesting in the main quad of the university last friday. we have had a series of protests . our students are outraged at what is going on in our name and with our tax dollars in gaza. while they were protesting, i would say peacefully, last friday, as your reporting of layla's recounting of what happened, all of the sudden they

smelled this horrible stench. i have smelled skunk water when i have in the west bank at protests. it is horrible. what the students were able to do is examine video from that protest and identify i think three older students. columbia has a program with graduate relationship with older students from other countries, including israel. it is something many of us were concerned about because so many of those israeli students who then come to the columbia campus are coming right out of their military service. they have been known to harass palestinian and other students on our campus. it is something the university has not taken seriously in the past. but we have never seen anything like this. the students were able to identify three of these exchange students, basically, from israel who had just come out of military service who were spraying there pro-palestinian students with this skunk water.

they were disguised so they could mix in with the students who were demanding the university divest from companies that are supporting the occupation and the war and were protesting and demanding a ceasefire. so we know who they were. university waited three or four days to actually say anything about it. they have not reached out to the students who are sick. some of whom are still in the hospital. i spoke to one student last night in the hopes we can get one on your show this morning and he was so mentally and physically disabled from this attack that he said, i have not left my dorm room in a week. our students are in terrible distress about this, those who were sprayed and those who were not. there was another protest yesterday. the students were quite afraid to come back onto campus. amy: is it true that you have

seen these students, the former idf students on campus? what is the administration saying about that since the attack? > the university says they have banned the three identified students from the campus. but i was told one of them was there yesterday. other students saw him. i don't know that for sure. several students said they saw one of them. we have a fairly porous campus. to ban them from campus is something that would have to volunteer to comply with except there is a demonstration -- they started locking the campus down in the last several months with gates and you have to have your id to get scanned and into the campus. then there is a wall of nypd. when i went to class yesterday, there are hundreds of nypd officers in uniform lining our campus. the university's response has not been compassion, support for the students who were attacked.

instead, it has been a militarization of our own campus and a further restraint on our students' ability to protest peacefully, now turning to the excuse of this attack from those who would support the israeli government as a pretext to clamp down even further on peaceful protests by our other students. amy: mahmood mamdani, you have written about the situation in gaza. you have spoken about it. there are now over 25,000 palestinians who have been killed, over 11,000 of them are children. the issue of hunger in gaza is a very sick -- serious issue raised by the u.n. and medical groups. you have that situation and the solidarity express with the people in palestine on college campuses. can you talk about what is happening at columbia, both

staff, professors, students' feelings about whether they can express their views without being doxxed or attacked? >> thank you, amy. the situation at columbia has been developing. it is monitored by an administration which seemed to have very little idea about what to do. at the same time, assumptions. the assumption was if the main problem at columbia is anti-semitism and the administration should do everything to keep it in check and then to be eradicated. when incidents like this, the chemical spraying, emerged, the administration's first response was kind of disbelief.

overall, it has been a very clumsy handling. different parts of the administration have different and sometimes conflicting initiatives. at the same time, they have a coherence. decoherence is basically -- the coherence is basically to shut things down and only have an opening from the top. so no question of freedom of expression from below. that is where we are now. meanwhile, community convinced shots are being called by those who give the money. amy: so how are you organizing? as a professor with other professors, with students? >> i think a number of concerned professors is growing. we are all convinced the

initiative must remain with the students. they are in the front line. but we're also convinced we should offer whatever guidance we can offer. we delete and discuss -- i personally have not been involved in face-to-face meetings much because of health issues. but i have been involved in meetings which are remote meetings. it is changing every day and it is developing. amy: professor, last semester columbia university, the new president at columbia, suspended both sjp as well as jewish voice for peace for holding a so-called unauthorized event, a walkout in support of the ceasefire in gaza.

what are these groups' status right now? you have long been involved with the issues around palestine. israel deported you. explain why. this was before october 7. >> well, my circumstances are much less acute than the circumstances of our students right now. i've been part of the barnard and columbia community since the late 19 avenues. i went to barnard as an undergrad. i've been columbia as a professor for 25 years. columbia's campus has always been a place where students have engaged the most critical issues of the day. when i was there in the late 19th avenues, was issues around sexual rights and later around the iraq war and the invitation of mahmoud ahmadinejad to the campus. students, faculty have used the campus as a palette for learning about difficult issues. that is what we do at

universities. for protesting or showing up for communities that are persecuted around the world. what we have seen this in do since october 8 is kind of go to war against our students. i have never seen the university disbanded certain groups for peaceful protests. we had 30, 40 50 complaints the university has filed against students for violations of the disciplinary code or for organizing protest. based on their changing of the rules around how to have an event the night before the event so students don't even know they are violating some new event rule. the university said sjp had to be suspended because they engaged in intimidating and threatening anti-semitic rhetoric. and in private meetings with them they said, actually they did not, but they won't retract

that. that defamation of our students remains in the public and media and the eyes and ears of our alums and other students, but they won't repudiated. the students feel like they have nothing left they can do except protest against the university at this point. but we have been spending an enormous amount of time protecting our students from the university itself. barnard students are been prosecuted for the social media posts and for hanging palestinian flags outside their dorm rooms when new york city law specifically protects the hanging of flags outside a dormitory. it feels like we're under a kind of siege at columbia and arnold. amy: professor mahmood mamdani, you are professor and director of the center for african studies at the university cape town in south africa.

tomorrow, the decision will come out of the international court of justice, an emergency decision on south africa's case -- genocide case against israel. your final comments? >> well, for those who read the south african application, it must be clear that it's strong point was the content, the argument, the substance. the empirical material relied -- drew totally from u.n. sources and from no other source. so itas unimpeachable. the israeli side, the israeli lawyers did not say anything, did not present any defense on whether genocide is unfolding.

what they did defend was procedurally south africa should not be the party making an application -- amy: mahmood mamdani we will continue this discussion and posted online at democracynow.org.