02/08/24 02/08/24 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] nermeen: from new york, this is democracy now! >> unrwa, we were deeply concerned by the allegations that were made about the participation or involvement of some of its employees in october 7. nermeen: unrwa in crisis after

funding is cut after allegations against the u.n. agency without providing evidence. we will speak with former unrwa spokesperson chris gunness. senegal is in the midst of its worst in decades after the president postponed this month selections. we will get the latest. and "io capitano." following migrants from west africa to italy. >we will speak with the filmmakr and the senegalese man whom the film is based on. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report.

i'm nermeen shaikh. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has rejected a proposal by hamas for a three-phase ceasefire where hamas will release all hostages in exchange for palestinian prisoners. hamas is seeking for all israeli troops to leave gaza. on wednesday, netanyahu said the war on gaza would continue and ordered israeli forces to prepare to attack the southern city of rafah. >> i would like to emphasize there is no solution other than total victory. nermeen: at a news conference yesterday, released hostages implored netanyahu to prioritize the release of remaining captives in gaza. this is adeena moshe, a 72-year-old grandmother who had been held hostage in gaza for 49 days. >> i am very afraid that if you continue on this path, there

will be no more hostages to release. nermeen: despite netanyahu's vow to continue the assault on gaza, truce negotiations are continuing. a hamas delegation is in cairo today for talks with mediators from egypt and qatar. u.s. secretary of state antony blinken has wrapped up his middle east trip after visiting israel and the occupied west bank, where he was met by palestinian protesters. health officials in gaza say israeli attacks since october 7 have now brought the death toll to nearly 28,000. this comes as the u.n. is warning the risk of famine in gaza is "increasing by the day." the palestine red crescent society says they still have no news about six-year-old hind and two of the group's rescue workers who disappeared 10 days ago while attempting to reach her. the child was last heard from while in a car which came under attack by israeli fire. six of her relatives were killed while in the vehicle. hind's mother spoke out this week, imploring international actors to help locate her

missing child. >> every second i wait for my daughter. we hear an ambulance, we think it is hind. every crash, every gunshot, every bombing, every missile i hear i think it is happening next to my daughter or directly to her or to the medics that went to her. nermeen: earlier today, the palestine red crescent said another member of its rescue team, mohammed al-omari, was killed, bringing the total number of its aid workers killed by israel's attacks to 12. meanwhile, the family of a palestinian-american woman is calling on u.s. officials to help free samaher esmail after she was forcibly taken from her home by israeli soldiers in the occupied west bank in the middle of the night monday. esmail is a resident of louisiana. her congressmember troy carter said tuesday he has contacted the u.s. embassy and the state department in hopes of securing her release. in news from iraq, the united states has assassinated a senior

commander of the kataib hezbollah militia. a u.s. drone attack in baghdad reportedly killed abu baqir al-saadi and two other members of the iran-aligned group, which the u.s. believes was involved in the recent drone strike on a base in jordan that killed three american troops. the government of iraq condemned the u.s. drone strike as a "clear aggression and violation of iraqi sovereignty." meanwhile, israel attacked the syrian city of homs on tuesday. according to the syrian observatory for human rights, the attack killed 10 people, including at least six civilians. in other news from the region, saudi arabia has reaffirmed it will not establish diplomatic relations with israel until an independent palestinian state is recognized. protest against the war are continuing throughout the u.s. here in new york, at least 100 jewish american activists and their allies were arrested wednesday as they blockaded a road on president biden's

motorcade route as he attended fundraisers. in chicago, 33 people were arrested as they blocked entrances to the woodward manufacturing plant, which makes military equipment that has been used by israel in palestine. in california, code pink and other activists blocked an entrance to the travis air force base in fairfield. >> it is -- what our government is so horrendously breaking international laws to step up. not in our name, not with our tax dollars. no weapons to israel. nermeen: code pink activists who were arrested during a previous action at the travis base will be arraigned later this month. the senate adjourned wednesday after failing to advance the contentious $118 billion border package. republicans, who had demanded the hardline immigration measure in exchange for funding for ukraine and israel, u-turned on the bill after donald trump directed them to reject it. senate majority leader chuck

schumer slammed republicans and trump for sowing chaos in legislative business. >> there is one other person besides donald trump is rooting for chaos in the senate, it is vladimir putin. if we fail in this moment, we abandon our friends in ukraine to vladimir putin, history will cast a shameful and permanent shadow on senators who block funding. it is a matter of the highest national urgency that we get this right. nermeen: schumer said he would call a separate vote today on military funding for ukraine, israel, and taiwan without any border provisions. as the $118 billion border bill failed wednesday, more than 800 faith leaders and groups called on congress to pivot to a more humane immigration package "that respects the sacred dignity of all people." president biden is sending a delegation to the swing state of michigan today to meet with arab and muslim leaders amid growing opposition to u.s. support for

israel's war on gaza and to biden's candidacy. dearborn mayor abdullah hammoud, who previously refused to meet with biden's campaign manager, announced wednesday he is joining over 30 other michigan officials who are vowing to cast an "uncommitted" vote in the state's primary on february 27. the effort is being led by the group "listen to michigan," which is headed by rashida tlaib's sister. in other election news, democrat marianne williamson has suspended her presidential campaign against joe biden. pakistan cut off cell phone and internet service earlier today just as voting began in a national election marred by controversy. opposition candidates say the telecommunications cutoff is just the latest move by pakistan's military-backed interim government to rig the election. pakistan's interior ministry said the move was needed to "mitigate potential security threats." on wednesday, a pair of bombings outside campaign offices in the

province of baluchistan killed 30 people. in the democratic republic of the congo, tens of thousands of people continue to flee violence in the east of the country as m23 rebels advance toward goma, the capital of north kivu. m23, which is accused of having ties with rwanda, reportedly surrounded the city of sake, considered the last line of defense before reaching goma. many in eastern congo have been forced to flee multiple times amid mounting violence from some 120 armed groups that operate in the region. this is an internally displaced person. >> there was a lot of gunfire. the m23 had arrived burning houses. they made us give them all of the money. there were many dead and wounded. when entered a house, they took everything, killed people, took livestock. that is what made as fully from

our homes -- flee from our homes. it was on sunday we left to come here. nermeen: during a soccer match this week at the africa cup of nations, the drc's national team sought to bring attention to the largely ignored humanitarian disaster back home. players held one hand in front of their mouths while pointing two fingers to their temples during congo's national anthem. the environmental protection agency announced it is tightening regulations on soot, breathing in excess fine particulate matter can lead to asthma attacks, cancer, and heart and lung disease. it's been linked to anywhere from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of premature deaths in the u.s. per year. the new rule will lower the amount of allowed fine particulate in the air from 12 micrograms per cubic meter to 9 micrograms. and scientists from the european union say average global temperatures over the past 12

months exceeded 1.5 celsius above pre-industrial levels for the first time, marking a grim new milestone in the climate crisis. scientists say last month was the hottest january ever recorded. temperature records have now been broken for eight months in a row. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm nermeen shaikh in new york, joined by amy goodman. hi, amy. amy: hi, nermeen. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. nermeen: fears are growing in rafah over an imminent israeli ground invasion after israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu rejected a hamas proposal for a ceasefire on wednesday and ordered the military to attack the southernmost city in the territory. over 1.2 million palestinians are sheltering in rafah after being displaced in the israeli assault. u.n. secretary-general antonio guterres said a ground invasion of rafah would "exponentially

increase what is already a humanitarian nightmare with untold regional consequences." aid agencies are warning of famine amid profound food shortages with a quarter of a million people in gaza already starving. the healthcare system has collapsed and the lack of water and sanitation has prompted outbreaks of illness and disease. most of the residents in gaza have been internally displaced with more than half the population sheltering in facilities run by unrwa, the u.n. agency for palestinian refugees. despite being the largest humanitarian agency in gaza, unrwa says it may run out of funds by the end of the month after at least 18 states or institutions, including many of the agency's biggest funders, announced they were suspending their donations last month. the cuts came after the israeli government accused several unrwa employees of participating in the hamas attack on october 7. israel made the allegations in a document it provided to foreign

governments, which apparently, contained no direct evidence of the claims. several news outlets, including britain's channel 4, the financial times, and sky news have all reported the document provided no evidence to support the conclusions that the agency's staff were involved in the october 7 attacks. meanwhile, australia's foreign minister said today she did not have all the evidence about the allegations and that she was working to bring an end to the suspension of funds. the government of canada has also not seen any evidence to back up israel's claim according to cbc news. unrwa is set to lose $65 million in funding by the end of february as a result of the cuts according to "the new york times." the agency relies on government contributions to fund its operations in occupied palestine, as well as in jordan, syria, and lebanon. for more, we are joined by the former spokesperson for unrwa, chris gunness. he's now the director of the myanmar accountability project.

welcome back to democracy now! if you could begin by responding to this news about unrwa possibly running out of funds by the end of this month, losing $65 million? >> it is extremely sad and extremely regrettable because unrwa wants nothing more than to work with owners and very cooperative relationship to restore funding. unrwa has taken robust and resolute action. the commissioner general sacked these workers even before the external report, even before the report had barely started. resolute action is part of zero-tolerance policy. it is with regret i say i hope the donors get onto the right side of history and get onto the right side of humanitarian principles and international humanitarian law. i say with regret it is possible that even the genocide

convention, which calls on state parties, including most of these defunders, to prevent genocide. what is happening is the starvation, which the u.n. correctly says is breaking outcome assesses it is possible more people will die of starvation than the actual military assault. it is with great regret i say donors need to come back into the fold. if i could give one example. when say -- seeing these appalling pictures and "the new york times" by individual israeli soldiers with american officials, will american officials and audiences judge the by the action of a few? no, it will judge the israeli army by the response of the israeli army to these appalling images. i say that is the basis upon which unrwa should be judged, not the actions which remain highly improvement as we now stand against a few bad apples. it must judge the agency by

habit response. how has it responded? with robust and resolute and swift action as part of zero-tolerance policy. it has been done in partnership with the donors. this is a failure not of unrwa. if it is a failure, it is a failure of the donor community as well that has been working so closely and even mr. blinken has said the americans have not been able independently to corroborate this evidence, what i'm calling and is now established in the international discourse, the dodgy dossier. upon which mr. blair took written to war in iraq, it was the dodgy dossier. to the donors want to be judged by history as potentially adding to a starvation complicity potentially with the genocide -- the crime of crimes genocide? no. they need to come under the

right side of history and of the law and humanitarian principles and immediately resume the funding of unrwa. that is a logical, humane, compassionate thing for the donors to do. amy: can you talk about what unrwa does? how large it is? you talk about this israeli dossier. the cbc says the canadian government has not seen the evidence of this. the u.s. government says they have not seen the actual evidence where there talking about something like nine or 12 unrwa employees of what, 13,000 in gaza, over 30,000 overall? talk about the history of unrwa. >> i think it is important historically and activities today to think of unrwa not as an aid agency but a government. unrwa runs syria, jordan, lebanon schools, 550 schools.

schools to 550,000 students. unrwa's primary health clinics have 7 million patient visits a year. unrwa has nearly 2 million food recipients across the region. that is the core budget. that is the education, relief and social services, and the primary health. as well as that, unrwa has emergency programs. unrwa does education, health, relief, social services for as many as 6 million palestine refugees across the region and some of the most vulnerable, isolated, fragile communities. when emergencies happen, for example, the gaza war, unrwa has to keep these lifesaving regionally stabilizing services while it turns to the emergency. it became operational on the ground in may 1950 and it did

relief, humanitarian relief for the 750,000 people who fled -- forced from their homes in the 1948 war. it also did job creation programs, if you like. when it became apparent the israeli government was not going to grant them the right to return home, unrwa realized it had a huge refugee population whose children needed education, primary health, also needed services. unrwa grew in response to the humanitarian need of the refugees that unrwa was serving. cut to today, huge education program. by the way, children around the middle east, escape from the drudgery and isolation, the vulnerability, the fragility and offering them the chance to be citizens of the world, to put the refugee status behind them rather than perpetuating this status.

often thoughtlessly -- unrwa offers refugees and escape from that narrative and that kind of life, which is why it is such a tragedy that based on a dodgy israeli dossier, this huge existential crisis has been triggered within unrwa, perhaps the worst in its history. and the daughters have become complete list -- comcomplicit. no donor has seen the evidence because as of now, the evidence simply does not exist. there is nothing that links these dozen or so former unrwa workers with the alleged crimes. let's get the funding resumed, avoid a mass starvation. to be clear, starvation is a massacre in slow motion. and that slow motion massacre has already begun. the donors need to realize the

enormity of what they have unleashed and come back medially into the fold where unrwa will embrace them and will work with them to deal with these issues as it has always dead throughout its history full -- has always dead throughout its history. amy: i want to go to the news conference that secretary of state tony blinken held yesterday in tel aviv. a few journalists got to ask questions and this was the question on unrwa. >> on unrwa, look, we are deeply concerned by the allegations that were made about the participation or involvement of some of its employees in the october 7. it is imperative that as the u.n. has said it is doing, there be a thorough investigation, there be clear accountability, and therapy clear measures put in place to make sure this can't happen again, the personnel

working for it were not in any way involved in terrorism or the events of october 7. we know that the work that unrwa performs, the functions that it performs have to be preserved because so many lives are depending on it. amy: and i want to go back to washington, d.c., where the white house press spokesperson was asked about the fact that channel 4, sky news, in the financial times found no evidence of unrwa involvement in october 7. >> one more question on gaza, ironclad evidence that 12 unrwa step embers were involved in the october 7 attack but four news

organizations have no evidence to support the israeli claim. what they provided was just cell phone messages -- >> talking about unrwa? >> where are you then reviewing that? what is the alternative if you are waiting for the results to come out? >> there is investigation happening so we will let that investigation move forward. look, funding for palestinian civilians is a team effort. for example, while we continue to provide funding to organizations like wsp, others may continue to fund unrwa -- which is their own sovereign decision. that is their right. amy: that is the white house spokesperson saying that they

think they're continuing the investigation yet they have already cut the funding. meanwhile, australia did also defund, saying they are now reevaluating. chris gunness, you've called the cutting of aid to unrwa -- the u.s. overwhelmingly gives the most -- illegal. why illegal? >> it is very clear that international humanitarian law, which expressly prohibits the use of humanitarian aid, food aid, as a political weapon. the genocide convention makes it an obligation on state parties to prevent genocide. if you don't prevent genocide, are guilty of violating the convention. the fact starvation is already broken out, there is already the

violation. they used the word "allegation" not "evidence." there is a gaping gap between "allegation" which anyone can make, and evidence," which needs to be corroborated. certainly the best resource in the world has not been able independently to corroborate this information which has triggered this huge crisis. i think that is very revealing. it is also revealing to end that soundbite you heard mr. blinken saying unrwa's work is indispensable. you heard the spokeswoman talking about accountability. let's look at what unrwa has done. even before the highest level investigation had barely started and certainly before the

external investigation had barely started, unrwa took robust action against this. it has an place and worked with those three years accountability, frameworks, mechanisms -- the very fact the israelis of the names is because unrwa's commitment to neutrality passed on to the israelis last made the entire staff list of unrwa in gaza and the west bank in digital form. it had already been run through the security council's terrorism list. israel did not come back with a single complaint. it was only until after the icj ruling come the day after the icj ruling accusing israel of plausible genocide in the headlines -- we also them -- that the israeli slick this. the news management is unraveling. what we're seeing is the spotlight turning to the donors.

i would like to see some proper investigation into the frameworks that are there for the donors who are accusing unrwa of politicization. i would like to say, what are the donors doing in a way which is accountable and which is transparent to show to the world how they have their humanitarian decision-making process and keep it immune from politics. they are accusing unrwa of weaponizing -- all these accusations around unrwa's neutrality. what about the donor neutrality? it looks increasingly as of the donor community was doing israel 's political bidding. we heard mr. netanyahu said several times he would like to see unrwa destroyed, dismantled. and it looks horribly -- i say this with deep regret -- that the donors are on the face of it going along with that israeli

scheme to dismantle unrwa. they can reverse that this moment by coming back and saying it was a dodgy dossier, we don't have the facts. they are openly saying they don't have the facts. they need to acknowledge what is actually happening. it was a piece of news management. treachery happens in war. that's what goes on. misinformation, lies. that is what has happened here. the truth appears to have been the first casualty. the donors had made this precipitous. i would say illegal and disproportionate decision to defund unrwa. that can be reversed immediately. i would urge them to do this because judge unrwa by its response just as i say judge the idf by its response to these abu ghraib pictures, judge unrwa by its response. swift and resolute -- do you

really think 33,000 unrwa workers could be actively doing this humanitarian, human development work across the region if it weren't implementing policies which were absolutely and partial? there's no question unrwa would quickly lose the trust of the communities and the donors if they weren't implementing this zero-tolerance policy. that has to be recognized. it is the response of unrwa that donors need to respond to. nermeen: i'm afraid we're going to have to leave it there. take you so much for joining us. chris gunness, the former spokesperson for the united nations relief and works agency for palestine refugees, or unrwa. he's now the director of the myanmar accountability project when we come back, senegal is in the midst of its worst political people and decades after the president postpone this month's elections. we will get the latest. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

nermeen: "i don't have freedom" by dam. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm nermeen shaikh. we turn now to senegal, which is in the midst of its worst political upheaval in decades after president macky sall postponed this month's election. more than 200 opposition politicians and protesters have been arrested in recent days and the government has shut down -- cut off sub internet access. meanwhile, civil society and opposition groups are calling for a mass mobilization against the delay to the presidential poll. president sall, whose second term was due to expire in early april, postponed the february 25 vote citing an electoral dispute between the parliament and the judiciary regarding some of the candidates. earlier this week, lawmakers voted to postpone the elections until december. the decision paves the way for sall to remain in office until at least the end of the year. opposition leaders and candidates rejected the

decision, calling it a coup. senegal has never experienced a coup since gaining independence from france in 1960. foreign ministers from the west africa bloc known as ecowas are due to meet for emergency talks today about the crisis. for more, we are joined by two guests. mamadou diouf is a professor of african studies and the director of the institute for african studies at columbia university where he joins us from. and joining us from abidjan in the ivory coast is ousmane diallo, senior researcher for senegal and the sahel at the amnesty international office for west and central africa. we welcome you both to democracy now! i would like to begin with ousmane diallo. if you could respond to the latest news and your assessment of why it is that president sall has postponed elections? >> i think president sall has postponed and for personal reasons, but many linked to the

dealings with his political party. what has shocked many citizens whether they are politicians or simple citizens going about their daily activities, is the unilateral way in which the elections were due three weeks from now were delayed to december by using force, pushing out opposition mps from the national assembly chamber on monday in order to vote the election, the further delay of the elections. furthermore, this is a string of human rights abuses. we have seen internet access cut off between sunday and wednesday morning and many were arrested. but since march 2021, at least 56 people were killed while participating in protests in senegal. we have around 1000 people detained in various regions of

the country for participating in elections. -- elections protests. i think what has irked many citizens about the decision that was announced on saturday is that this is the latest redline in the standings of the country been compromised by none other than the president. amy: i want to go to the former senegalese prime minister. we reached her last night. on sunday, she was detained for six hours before being released. this is what aminata touré had to say. >> according to the law, there are three ways of collecting sponsorship. you can collect a certain number

of parliamentarian or mayor or you go to what is called citizens sponsorship, which means you have to collect between 44000 and 58,000 signatures from voters, which i have done. because i let macky sall's legislative election list two years ago, so i know how to collect sponsorship, which i have done. when we came for the control, they could not find they said 30,000 of my sponsors in the file. i came with the evidence and told them, here they are coming to the 2022 file. but they did not want to hear anything. macky sall decided i would not be a candidate. before that, last year, he removed me formally from the

parliament. it is unheard of. i went to the rally and the minute i stepped out of my car, i was picked up by the police. i spent hours being arrested and they released me without telling me what was wrong, what i was charged with because there were none. that is the case for thousands who are protecting -- they are in jail. they don't have a court date. this is a mess. we are not used to this. senegal is known as the most stable democracy in west africa come and here is president macky sall who is poisoning it. we just sit and watch. we will do whatever we need to do to keep the foundation of our

democracy solid. and because that is the former senegalese prime minister who was arrested on sunday for six hours, spoke to democracy now! yesterday aminata touré. we want to bring professor mamadou diouf into this conversation from columbia university. hundreds of people have been arrested in the last days. this isn't the beginning of the unrest on the ground. can you respond to what prime minister sall has done? and take us back in time. put this back to 1960 when senegal became an independent nation. >> thank you for having me. it is true if you want to understand what is happening right now, we have to put it in perspective and have a kind of

long approach. since the independence, what is happened in senegal is, basically, the fact that a political system was created using the resources of the colonial and british sources of islam. the kind of precolonial culture which allow senegalese political class to build on the colonial foundation of a state i call -- a state in which you have segment of the population who had been able to build a power base and keep negotiating one with the other.

and the british political side called the senegalese a success story based on the kind of social contract. it did not mean that the country was fully democratic -- the country was fully democratic, but it was a country when she had the kind of open society, engagement between different groups and possibility always to find a solution to the biggest crisis. i think is what made senegal a kind of exception. but what we have been experiencing since president macky sall was arrested is the unraveling of the system -- was elected is the unraveling of the system. the basis of stability of the

country. and the turning point basically is when he was elected in 2019, he just began planning a possible third term. the planning is absolutely evident if you look at all of his action from 2019. unfortunately for him, the senegalese society, this very resourceful society, has been able to resist another term. he was soundly defeated by the mobilization who have been able to say, we want this regime to respect the constitution. and force macky sall and his group to finally give up the

idea of another term. he had been keeping come if you want, an approach which is very oppressive which is unknown can senegal. an approach of centralization, and approach of -- this is the term of the process which is a process of systematic destruction of the foundation of a few democratic systems in africa. nermeen: i would like you to elaborate on why that is the case. in this moment, there are people who are speculating that there may actually be some kind of military coup in senegal. senegal is come as you said, considered an exception, the only country in west africa that has not experienced a military

coup. first of all, do you think there's a risk that might happen? also, what differentiates senegal in this sense, the relationship of the military, to the government compared to its neighbors? >> according to many scholars who have been paying attention in military group in west africa, what they've showed is the senegalese military is a very professionalized group and well educated group. who had been really favored by l regime -- in many cases, times of crisis is we know military intervene in the

process -- dialogue process in a kind of compromise we are always avoiding taking power. i think they are still in the same disposition. in 1962, for example, when senegal was in conflict with the prime minister, the army actually supported senegal but did say politicians should solve the issue. that the army was not going to intervene. i think that is what is going to happen if the crisis deepens. they will probably say, ok, this is the situation in which it is

stuff the army taking over but the army will make sure that the right solution is found. what has changed, with president macky sall, is today what is called the military police. it is much better equipped probably than the army. equipped for repression. that is where macky sall has vested more -- invested more, than in education and health. amy: ousmane diallo, you are with amnesty international. i want to ask about the targeting of journalists and media under sall, particularly

one private tv station losing his license after showing protests on the ground. internet being cut off, difficult to reach people on the ground. the significance of all of this and where you see the next election happening? >> i think those attacks against the press that have occurred over the last three years are similar to the repression, independent voices in senegal. on the broadcasting license of the tv station, withdrawn who criticize them for covering the protests on sunday. it is one of the first tv -- private media. it has been key in opening up democratic voices and paving the

way to political -- 2000-2012. beyond that, what has been very hurtful toward senegalese people and their rights has been the suspension of internet access and mobile data. this has happened between sunday and wednesday. it has happened in june 2023. it is happened in march 2021. every time it has become a regular feature of the repression of the regime. if you look at international -- the ruling by the court of justice, they've been very clear the suspension of access to internet are against the rights of press freedom. i think in a general way, the press has been attacked and has been the victim of repression by

the military regime as have been the institutions. talking about the army which has been under stress. and rulings final according to the senegalese constitution, but has been criticized and undermined by the actions of the president. i think all of those contribute to the stress, anger, immobilization we're saying among senegalese citizens. nermeen: thank you so much, ousmane diallo. we will continue to follow the story. amnesty international senior researcher for senegal and the sale. mamadou diouf is a professor of african studies, and the director of columbia university's institute for african studies. the next new oscar-nominated film follows young senegalese migrants on their journey from west africa to italy and we will speak with the director and the

person who is part of the inspiration for "io capitano." back in 20 seconds. ♪ [music break] nermeen: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm nermeen shaikh.

with amy goodman. we end today show than oscar-nominated film "io capitano." it follows young senegalese migrants on their journey from west africa to italy. this is the trailer.

nermeen: that is the trailer for the oscar-nominated film "io capitano." we're joined by the award-winning director matteo garrone as well as mamadou kouassi, whose journey as an

african migrant is the basis for "io capitano." we welcome you both to democracy now! matteo garrone, congratulations on this absolutely beautiful film. if you can begin by explaining the inspiration for the film and your decision to tell this story of migrants from the perspective of the migrants themselves rather than from the perspective of the european country receiving them -- which is what films on migrants have all done so far as i know. >> first of all, thank you for inviting us. we decided to tell the story starting from -- to make a sort of reverse shot. so how usually see on the news for my point of view, we have been used to in europe and italy

to see only the last part of the journey when the boat arrives in sicily -- with a 60 to arrive in sicily. as we know, in the last 15 years, 27,000 people have died making this journey. we are used to seeing the count of numbers, people alive, how many are left, how many are dead and with time we get use to this number. we wanted to try to humanize this number. we wanted to give to the audience the possibility to live the experience of the journey from the point if you have them. so finally to give visual form to a part of the journey that we don't see. that is what pushed us to make this movie. and making this movie for me, i

am italian, was crucial, fundamental to do it with them. so i have been a sort of mediator. i worked since the beginning on the script with the people that for real made this journey. the extras behind the actors are those who made the journey. on the set, they help to re-create this odyssey because they are the carriers of the contemporary -- they re-create this modern odyssey with me trying to be authentic, trying to be true for the respective the people that made this journey, for the respective the people that died on this journey, and for the help of the people that will see this movie, especially in africa, and maybe will be aware about the risk going through. amy: let's go to another clip

from this absolutely -- let's go to another clip from this epic film "io capitano." this is the star who is speaking with his cousin about thinking about leaving senegal.

and because that is a clip from -- amy: that is a clip from "io capitano." it takes you from senegal to the desert to the sea to italy. the character is based on the left, though not senegalese, from the ivory coast, of mamadou kouassi. mamadou kouassi, if you can talk about what it means to put your journey into this film that is now nominated for an oscar that will be seen around the world, why you left your country and took this perilous journey to

europe? >> as you have already said, thank you very much for this invitation. this film is talking about dream that me and my cousin, we get access -- we learn a little bit about europe. we studied in the books. we found it is important to discover what has been seen to us in television, newspapers about europe, that europe is a country of human rights. the country of dreams come you can achieve your dreams. me and my cousin, we started to travel.

the only possibility for us to travel is to cross the desert. for us it is difficult to get a visa to travel, so we took some information from some people. getting a visa is very difficult. even to get an appointment sometimes more difficult. so we decided to cross the desert. when we started the journey, a circle. difficult to go back and we see it was harder -- you see many people that are dying. ladies, boys. people are dying. you see the dead bodies. we discovered the reality -- not only the desert. when you arrive in countries like libya, what you have seen in the movie is true reality.

slaves. people are tortured in prison. people are obliged to take a boat across the mediterranean sea. at the same time, people are dying. this is given us the opportunity to express ourselves, to bring their reality all over the world. people are talking but they don't know before they entered europe, people died in the desert, mediterranean sea, in prisons. people are suffering today. this film is an instrument for us to share this information to the world, for the public to know with the african people are suffering before they arrive in europe. an instrument to send this message to the world. nermeen: mamadou kouassi, we're

going to continue this conversation and post it on democracynow.org. mamadou kouassi, whose journey as an african migrant to europe is the basis for the new film "io capitano." and matteo garrone, the film's director. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]