03/05/24 03/05/24 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> the armed gangs forced us to leave our homes. we are on the streets. amy: thousands of haitians are fleeing rising gang violence as we go to the capital for an update and to nairobi to speak with a canyon lawmaker who

opposes sending 1000 canyon police to haiti as part of the u.n. peacekeeping force. then federal prosecutors in u.s. court have rested their case against former honduran president juan orlando hernández, who faces accusations of turning the country into a narco-state. we will get the latest. and we'll speak with the producer of the oscar-nominated holocaust film "zone of interest" who spoke about the israeli siege of gaza in his bafta award speech last month. >> those rules are not new, before, during, since the holocaust, and it seems stark right now that we should care about innocent people being killed in gaza or yemen in the same way we think about innocent people being killed in mariupol or israel. amy: all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the u.s. supreme court unanimously ruled states do not monday have the authority to remove donald trump from the ballot under the insurrection clause of the 14th amendment, which was written to prevent civil war confederates from returning to government. the court's ruling came in -- after the state of colorado attempted to take trump after primary ballot over his actions inciting the january 6 insurrection. in the majority opinion, justices wrote, "states have no power under the constitution to enforce section 3 with respect to federal offices, especially the presidency." the court's three liberal justices issued a concurring opinion, warning. colorado secretary of state jena

griswold responded to the court's ruling on msnbc. >> i larger reaction is disappointment. i do believe states should be under our constitution to bar oath breaking insurrectionist's. amy: millions of voters are heading to the polls today as 15 states are holding primaries and caucuses in what's known as super tuesday. in california, there is a four-way race to fill the seat of the late senator dianne feinstein. three democratic members of congress -- adam schiff, katie porter, and barbara lee -- are on the ballot along with republican steve garvey, a former major league baseball player. the top two candidates regardless of party will face off in november. in minnesota, some democratic activists are urging voters to select "uncommitted" on the ballot to protest joe biden's support for israel's assault on gaza. jaylani hussein is co-chair of the abandon biden campaign. >> for tuesday, it is not

minnesota muslims, muslims in the united states, it is really the overwhelming majority of democrats who believe that the president is on a very dark course. so many children have been killed in gaza over 30,000 dead. every single day the israeli defense force is killing innocent people and our president has not done anything. we have done the opposite. we have stopped the world from calling and stopping this war and calling for an immediate cease-fire. amy: the world health organization is warning malnutrition in northern gaza is "particularly extreme" as talks continue over a possible six-week temporary ceasefire. on monday, palestinian u.n. ambassador riyad mansour warned children in gaza are increasingly dying of starvation. he raised the case of yazan al-kafarneh, an emaciated 10-year-old palestinian child who died of severe

malnutrition and insufficient healthcare. >> look at our children. look at yazan. look what agony they are enduring. a dozen more children who died of malnutrition have been identified and many more have died and are dying in darkness and destitution. this has to stop, for god sakes. amy: a team of united nations experts say they have found "reasonable grounds" to believe that sexual violence including rape occurred on october 7 during the hamas-led attack on israel. the u.n. special envoy for sexual violence pramila patten spoke at the united nations on monday. >> we also found there are reasonable grounds to believe

conflict-related violence including rape and gang rape occurred during the october 7 attacks in at least three locations, namely the is a festival site and its surroundings, in most, they were first subjected to rape and then killed. at least two incidents related to the rape of women -- amy: the u.n. expert pramila patten went on to say that reports of rapes occurring at a fourth location, kibbutz be'eri, were unfounded. she said her team had also found "clear and convincing information" that some hostages held in gaza had also suffered sexual violence. the u.n. experts did not conduct their own investigation but instead wrote the report based in large part from conversations with israeli institutions, including zaka, an israeli search-and-rescue organization that has been accused of spreading false stories about atrocities on october 7.

the u.n. team said it did not meet with any survivors of the sexual violence from october 7. patten also said her team received reports about imprisoned palestinians facing sexual violence while in israeli detention. >> we, nevertheless, received from several information about degrading treatment palestinians under detention, including sexual violence, invasive body searches, threats of rape and prolonged nudity. amy: two weeks ago, a group of u.n. experts expressed alarm over the mistreatment of palestinian women and girls held by israel. in a statement, the experts said -- "we are particularly distressed by reports that palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male israeli army officers.

at least two female palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence." the u.n. experts said that israeli troops took photos of female palestinian detainees in degrading circumstances and posted them online. ukraine is claiming it has sunk a russian warship in the black sea. ukrainian naval drones reportedly attacked the $65 million ship off the coast of crimea. in other news from the region, more than 20,000 soldiers from nato countries have begun a massive war exercise in the northern regions of finland, norway, and sweden. 4000 troops are talking part from finland, which joined nato last year and shares an 800-mile border with russia. the head of the military junta in chad has confirmed he will run in the upcoming election for president. mahamat idriss deby itno made the announcement saturday just days after his chief rival was killed.

yaya dillo died when security forces opened fire on the headquarters of his political party, the socialist party without borders. south korea's government has announced it's moving to suspend the licenses of thousands of doctors who've been on strike for at least two weeks. about 7000 doctors have defied orders by south korean officials to return to work by the end of february. doctors have been protesting the government's plan to increase medical school admissions by around 65%. they're demanding higher wages and a more manageable workload. jack teixeira, a member of the massachusetts air national guard, has pleaded guilty to posting secret intelligence reports online. he could serve 16 years in prison. he was indicted last year under the espionage act and has been jailed since april 2023 after he posted a series of highly classified pentagon intelligence documents to a group of gamers on the messaging app discord.

and in connecticut, five anti-nuclear activists connected to the catholic worker movement were arrested monday for blocking the gates of a general dynamics plant in new london, where the columbia class nuclear submarines are being designed and constructed. during the action, a group of put -- 20 protesters held up five sides images of the father of the atomic bomb with a banner reading "don't be a destroyer of worlds. stop the colombia sub." and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman in new york, joined by democracy now!'s juan gonzález in chicago. hi, juan. juan: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers across the country and around the world. amy: we begin today's show in haiti, where port-au-prince's international airport is reportedly under siege by armed

gangs as haiti is under a state of emergency. tens of thousands have been displaced across the haitian capital as they flee the rising violence. >> they destroyed our houses and we are on the streets. amy: over the weekend, haiti's powerful gangs freed thousands from haiti's largest prisons. the gang federation leader known as "barbeque" claimed responsibility and is calling for the ousting of unelected prime minister ariel henry. gang members are reportedly uniting to bring down haiti's de facto prime minister henry, who yet -- who has yet to return to haiti since he traveled to kenya last week to discuss a deal to send about 1000 police to lead a u.n. peacekeeping force. the kenyan high court in january ruled the plan unconstitutional. for more we are joined by three guests. in nairobi, we're joined by kenyan parliamentarian otiende amollo, who opposes the police deployment to haiti. in washington, d.c., jake

johnston, runs the haiti relief & reconstruction watch blog for the center for economic and policy research and is the author of the new book "aid state: elite panic, disaster capitalism, and the battle to control haiti." but first, we go to port-au-prince, haiti's capital, to speak with monique clesca, a haitian pro-democracy advocate who worked for many years with the united nations and unicef for 15 years. we welcome you to democracy now! monique clesca, can you talk about what is happening on the ground? people fleeing for their lives? >> thank you for inviting me. it is desolation. the feeling. it is tear that we are living and it is horrifying what we are going through. since last thursday, there is

been an assault on different neighborhoods, different areas and faith institutions. yesterday was the biggest assault on the airport. people cannot travel. people are scared. people cannot go to work. on saturday night, it was a jail -- a massive assault on the port-au-prince jail and about 4000 prisoners who were out in the streets somewhere. among them, rapists, murderers, kidnappers, etc. we are terrorized. what is important to say, we have been terrorized the last 30 months of jovenof henry's rule.

we have it in a state of terror, horror. people are dying. our sisters are being raped. our children are going to sleep hungry for the last 30 months or more. we are under a regime of -- bottom line, we are hostages of about 3000 men who are running the country with gang ties or white shirts, roaming the streets and terrifying this. that is the situation we are living right now in haiti. let's be clear, the biden administration has its hands in the bloodshed because we have

been saying since august 2021, 2.5 years ago, that this must stop. we have an alternative solution. we must get those criminals out of office. we must get those criminals out. so the biden administration is paying the price because there is no doubt in my mind that they bear huge responsibility, along with the u.n. and france and canada. but the biden administration has its knee on our necks because we would not be here if they had listen to us haitians who have said for a long time this is unacceptable. this criminal regime is unacceptable to us haitians. throughout haiti, haitians have demonstrated and said ariel henry must go.

he can stay in kenya, he could say in washington. wherever he is, he can either but we need new blood in the government of haiti. it and women who can provide for haitians. juan: monique clesca, you said on the criminals in white suits or the white shirts but the focus in most of the media coverage here about haiti in the united states is on the gangs in the streets. are all of these gangs the same or are there distinctions between them? because some claim that some are more political than some of the other gangs, especially, for instance, jimmy chérizier and his group. how do you regard the situation on the street with these gangs? >> i am here to say that the

government coming from the u.n. reports that have said the former president of haiti formed a gang, armed gangs. so since 2011, it has been a criminal regime that is armed the gangs and now they gangs are stronger and they're going about whatever they is -- the is there behavior. people in power, president, prime ministers, ministers, even a document from the yellow law school clinic and human rights organization -- yale law school clinic and human rights organizations like it is a crime against humanity. we are talking about construct. this is not something that happened out of the blue.

these government officers, as well as prime minister, president, and some economic oligarchs, have financed the gangs come armed the gangs, given them even contracts to distribute food in neighborhoods, it etc. so we must be clear that the gangs happened instrumentalized in the past created arms to terrorize us so they can keep power. so now the gangs have gained their independence and maybe they have their political whatever, but i think the main culprit here is government that started to finance them, senators -- arming the gangs, giving them money. huge economic players in haiti. even if a director is under

sanction, even though it is not united nations sanctions. so let's be clear about this. there's no doubt in my mind about this that the gangs with white shirts or whatever shirts and ties are also extremely involved -- not only involved, but responsible for this. and the united states knows this. we have told this to assistant secretary brian nichols. we have told this to barbara feinstein at the state department. we have told this to ben erickson, who is now at the white house. we have told this. the biden administration knows this, that it is a criminal regime, that it is financing, that it is supporting, that it is helping to kill us. and we say it is enough. we need new leadership in haiti.

wendy different governance that respects our human rights. this is unattainable. this is unbelievable. it is inadmissible. we do not want it and we are in assistance mode. we are saying, no, we do not want this and the biden administration will pay for some of this because there are 1.5 million haitians in the united states and their beginning to threaten not to vote for biden. elections are decided by a few thousand votes, so 1.5 million haitians, that means a lot. they must reverse course. they must. juan: i would like to bring in jake johnston, the author of the new book "aid state: elite panic, disaster capitalism, and the battle to control haiti's." welcome.

your assessment of the situation right now in haiti and the steps that need to be taken to restore some sense of safety to the population and an actual functioning government? >> thank you for having me. i think when we look at haiti, we have to understand some of the roots of what we are seeing today. at the heart of this is a broken social contract, state that is no longer representative or accountable to the population. that has created the dynamics come the broader situation that has allow the situation to spiral the way it has. would you look at how to address that, you have to start there and i echo monique's call to focus on the political environment. you look at what is happening now. this doesn't happen in a vacuum. the armed groups don't seize control.

-- without hierarchy. one of the most shocking things over the last four or five days has been the total silence from the government. ariel henry is not even in the country. the state of urgency was announced in a press release. this is not a crisis entirely created by haitians. we have to understand this has been a long time coming and a process stoked and perpetuated by the international community. mainly the united states. you can go back to haiti's founding. but we don't need to go back that far in history to see this history of intervention. the 2000 four coup d'état, overturning of election results in 2010, and the u.s. insistence on moving forward with the current government against all odds and against the very clear expression from the haitian people.

unless that begins to change, it is extremely unlikely the situation on the ground improves. juan: i want to ask you about the role of former president aristide, removed from office twice but at the same time there are reports that he has had some kind of accommodation with ariel henry and that his family is basically on the sidelines these days? what information do you have about that? >> i think you have to -- it is a murky political environment. there have been negotiations happening for two years. that breakdown, the inability of ariel henry to come together and reach an accord meaningfully balance power with alternatives, right? there's not a single elected official in the country.

many political parties are trying to push and prod. where this ends up, i think -- in a lot of ways what we're seeing with the fight between protecting the status quo, trying to put the train back on the tracks, or building something new by re-founding the state and rebuilding that social contract that has been broken. amy: i want to go to jimmy chérizier speaking friday. >> we ask the haitian national police and the military to take responsibility and arrest ariel henry. once again, the population is not our enemy. the armed groups are not your enemy. you arrest ariel henry for the country's liberation. these weapons that we have are not here to hurt our brothers who come from the same milieu as us. the poor take the streets, and they trust us. these weapons are our symbol of freedom. with these weapons, we will liberate the country, and these weapons will change the country.

amy: monique clesca, barbecue, or chérizier, is a leader of a gang and they joined together all of the gangs. this is significant. he is saying they won't let henry back into the country. can you talk about the significance of this alliance and who he is? >> well, i don't want to talk about who he is because i think he said who he is and he showed who he is. he has been showing who he is for years now. what i want to say, though, i don't believe in violence. the antenna movement that i am part of, guns cannot be symbols of freedom. guns cannot be that. another question is where are

they getting the ammunition? where are they getting all of these guns? and 14, m-1 -- where are they getting them? the guns are coming mostly from miami, from the united states. some are coming from the dominican republic -- through the dominican republic. so i think that is a central issue. in terms of where are the armed groups because they say they are armed groups and they claim that and they have their project, but where is it coming from? what i am saying is, we have been living under -- we have been kidnapped. we have been killed. our sisters are raped. let's be very clear about this. they gangs, i cannot say much more about the gangs other than what their actions have shown. what i know is in haiti, they

have been supported by the governors of haiti, the leaders like ariel henry, and the social justice agenda that we have. people are not eating. people don't have health care. people are not going to school. it is extremely important and that is what must be put toward. -- put forward. 65% of the haitian population is under 24 years old. would you hold a gun to them as opposed to feeding them, then very often they might go the other way toward the gun stop what we need to do is have leadership come then and women, who can say that we will respect that social contract that johnston is talking about to remove this massive inequality, respect human rights of haitians, and feed haitians,

give them health care -- particularly the youth. two thirds of the country is under 24 years old. we need to focus on them rather than focus on the gangs and everything else. that is why we need to break what is right now the government that is killing us, literally and figuratively, with the help of the u.n. and the united states, the biden administration. so that is a focus for me. amy: i want to bring in otiende amollo, member of parliament. ariel henry was last seen in kenya sealing the deal of sending 1000 kenyan police as part of the u.n. peacekeeping force to haiti and yet the kenyan high court in january ruled the plan was unconstitutional.

you had a group of canyons go to haiti to investigate this situation. they came back almost immediately within hours and then went to washington to work out the deal. one of those kenyans was found dead in his washington, d.c., hotel room. otiende amollom, could he talk about the plan and are 1000 police being sent to haiti? >> thank you for having me. the sense in kenya is that they are sending 1000 police officers is unpopular, the general sense. but i would say -- legally unfounded. -- quite shaky.

what has been put in place is quite weak. unconstitutional and improper. first, the idea [indiscernible] it still leaves a lot of issues pending. the biggest issue is under our constitution, under our laws, our police force cannot be deployed abroad. they can only operate within the kenyan borders. for some strange reason, they chosen to deploy the police which remains against the

constitution. only the forces can be deployed. for reasons i think monique captured, we don't have any bilateral arrangement between kenya and haiti. primarily i think because there's no legitimate or executive that can make the arrangement. so the idea -- beyond that, the process is flawed. [indiscernible]

it is clear our government offered -- the president of the united states welcomed that move. it was only that after the u.n. security council -- there was a general resolution which invited support. it came at a time when there active court orders which have still not been verified. so the entire move is one that flies in the face of the rule of law. sadly, we keep saying we have thousands of armed forces, personnel in the barracks. we have police officers --

[indiscernible] power argument is you cannot deploy the police when we need the police in kenya. think in terms of assistance, -- defense forces that could intervene. from what monique described 1000

police officers cannot bring any -- we are worried the 1000 police officers that were sent, we're not sure where they are right now -- juan: if i can, i want to get in jake johnston because we are almost running out of time. jake, your last comments? this whole issue of whether a peaceful change in haiti can occur or whether the failure of the government, the threat of new international intervention and the desperate situation of the haitian people really does call for some kind of armed revolt by the people of haiti? your sense of that? >> i think in regard to the kenyan ocean, and we have to understand there was united nations peacekeepers following the 2004 coup d'état that were in the country for years.

we are now talking about doing this but the situation on the ground is a reminder of the failure of those efforts. we are talking about haiti where police can't even get paid and we're shocked they're not putting up more resistance. the solutions are local, can be local. international actors have a role of supporting local solutions rather than undermining local institutions which has been a pattern repeated over haiti's history. there can be a peaceful resolution but it will take change in policies and haiti and especially in the u.s. as well. amy: jake johnston, thank you for being with us, runs the haiti relief & reconstruction watch blog. his new book, "aid state: elite panic, disaster capitalism, and the battle to control haiti." we want to thank monique clesca, haitian pro-democracy advocate speaking to us from port-au-prince. and otiende amollo, kenyan

member of parliament. next up, prosecutors rest their case against former honduran president accused of turning honduras into a narco state. we will get the latest in 20 seconds. ♪ [music break] amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. here in new york, prosecutors have rested their case against the former honduran president

juan orlando hernández, who is on trial for cocaine trafficking and weapons charges as he faces accusations of ruling the country as a narco-state. he is the first former head of state to stand trial in the u.s. since panamanian dictator and u.s. ally manuel noriega, who was ousted in 1989 when u.s. forces invaded panama and later he was convicted on drug charges. hernandez is it accused of accepting millions of dollars in bribes from cocaine traffickers in exchange for protection. during the trial, several convicted drug traffickers testified against him, including some affiliated with the sinaloa cartel and the son of another former u.s.-backed honduran president, porfirio "pepe lobo" sosa. hernandez was arrested in february 2022, less than a month after his presidential term ended, and extradited to the u.s. in april of 2022. he was a longtime u.s. ally who received backing during his entire eight-year term despite mounting reports of human rights

violations and accusations of corruption and involvement with drug smuggling. his brother juan antonio "tony" hernández is now serving a life prison sentence in the u.s. after being convicted in 2019 of smuggling cocaine. juan orlando hernández faces life in prison if convicted. for more, we're joined by two guests who have been attending the trial in new york. dana frank is professor of history emerita at the university of california, santa cruz and author of "the long honduran night: resistance, terror, and the united states in the aftermath of the coup." and oscar estrada is a honduran writer and screenwriter. his latest book is "land of narcos: how the mafias took over honduras." we welcome you both to democracy now! professor frank, give us the overall context. >> the main thing is the u.s. is apparently deciding to try, has decided to try one of its most

important allies. the overall context is the u.s. support for the 2009 military coup which the u.s.-backed and allowed to stabilize. that in turn destroyed the rule of law in honduras. it is not just juan linda is a corrupt figure, but the u.s. supported him and the previous president and allowed the destruction of the rule of law which then opened the door for the kind of criminal behavior and drug trafficking not only by the narcos but by figures at the top. the government and the police. juan: i would like to ask oscar estrada, you have also been at the trial. what struck you most about it so far? could you talk about the testimony of son of the former president? >> at this point it has been shown clear that involvement of narco money into elections and.

interesting that the united states prosecutors are trying to back of the original indictment about election fraud in the 2013 election. i think all of the witnesses are saying they paid bribes the different candidates in the united states and the hundred people have been expecting more about the trial in this sense trying to see what happened with all of the different trafficking involvement campaign. with lobo, it is very clear that he has a lot more to say that wasn't really shown. shows a man full of resentment

of his father, different -- when he was arrested in 2015. juan: dana frank, why did the united states turn so dramatically against a leader that is supported for two terms in office? one of which was a sensibly an illegal term. >> i think the first term, see the amount of money that flowed in from narcos for his first term has come out in the trial so i think that underscores how corrupt both elections were, which i've been saying all along as have many hondurans. the question to answer how the u.s. turned on juan orlando is like you have to aggregate to the u.s. is here because it has been the southern district of new york independent following the cases, building the case that has led to juan orlando hernandez and before that his brother tony.

the evidence i know is the white house and state department have not been happy about this. i have interviewed officials at the white house and three ambassadors and it is clear they were hostile about these cases. it is also clear all the obama and trump and biden also ported juan orlando hernandez, biden did not with the southern district of new york to charge and extradite juan orlando hernandez until after hernandez was out of office. it is very important because otherwise it looks like there's a narrative here that you could see in "the new york times, code that the hundred people can't govern themselves and suddenly the u.s. is coming in and heroically imposing the rule of law. it is the opposite. it is the united states that is help destroy the criminal justice system in honduras and obama and trump did not want juan orlando to be charged and extradited. amy: oscar estrada, if you can

talk about the human rights situation on the ground when juan orlando hernandez was president? for example, turning the honduran military essentially into private security guards for drug traffickers and what that meant for human rights activists and people on the ground to are critical of the president. >> it is clear we have seen the coup d'état in 2009, the deterioration of human rights situation in honduras from then on. like pretty much all the last decade has been a lot of accusation of violation of human rights. in the military role is very important. we see it now, generals of the army taking the stand supporting his defense. it is clear he was backed by the military from the beginning.

the military is now defending him. it is clear the army in honduras, even though trying to back it up from this military come the officers, generals, they stand for the defense. they are trying to back it up but it is clear they still have a lot of influence inside the army. juan: dana frank, it has been two years since castro was elected president, the head of a popular movement in honduras. has u.s. policy toward honduras changed at all or is it still backing the corrupt elite of the former president? >> there's a very clear pattern since early on when he first took office of the u.s. supporting the very same actors it has for many years. working with the national party, juan orlando hernandez's party,

with the top figures of the national party, the actual head is a fugitive jus from justice. the u.s. ambassador has been trying to undermine hundred sovereignty, opposing tax reform law, opposing reforming the electrical system. aggressively supporting the so-called model cities. it is clear the u.s. agenda is to support corporate investments in honduras, which it always has. of course it cares about honduras as part of its larger geopolitical effort to militarily dominate the hemisphere. amy: oscar, the former head of honduras national police pleaded guilty tuesday to cocaine trafficking. he appeared in a new york city court just days before he was

scheduled to go on trial with juan orlando hernandez. can you talk about the significance of his guilty plea? >> we in honduras, we want him to be persecuted for all of his human rights violations, which are very well-known and recorded in honduras. instead he is pleading guilty for one charge of narco trafficking. what we don't want is for that to be a cover-up of his human rights violations from the coup d'état and from way before when he was one of the leaders of a death squad in early 2000's. he built a career as a repressor . and now he is going to be sentenced in a self district court in the united states.

we want to know more about what else has he done when he was chief of police. amy: professor frank, is the u.s. increasingly criminalizes immigrants coming into the country, the huge flow of a for example, hundred immigrants, the connection between migration and what the u.s. has supported? >> people are fleeing because they are fleeing gangs and poverty and fleeing the post-coup regime. three different presidents that have destroyed the country and have been backed by the united states in doing that. the u.s. creating -- single biggest factor why people are fleeing and then turns around and says somehow there is a disaster down there independently with it is the u.s. that is responsible for why people are fleeing honduras. amy: dana frank, thank you for being with us professor of , history emerita at the

university of california, santa cruz. and oscar estrada is a honduran writer and screenwriter. his latest book "land of narcos, , how the mafias took over honduras." coming up, we speak with the producer of the film "the zone of interest." stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: johann strauss' "tales from the vienna woods" performed by london philharmonic orchestra. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. we end today's show with the produce of the oscar-nominated holocaust film "the zone of interest." it is about the family of a family living a tranquil life on the opposite side of the wall of the concentration camp. this is the trailer. >> these flowers are so beautiful.

amy: it just won three bafta awards for best sound, best british from, and best film not in the english language. during his acceptance speech, producer james wilson raised israel's assault on gaza. >> a friend wrote me after seeing the film the other day that he could not stop thinking about the walls we construct uncle our lives which we choose not to look behind. those walls are not new from before, during, or since the holocaust and it seems start right now that we should care about the innocent people being killed right now in gaza or yemen in the same way we think

about people being killed in mariupol for in israel. amy: for more we're joined by james wilson, producer of the oscar-nominated film "the zone of interest." it was nominated for best picture among others. the oscar ceremony is sunday. best international picture. congratulations, james wilson, on all the nominations and what you won at the bafta's. talk about your experience and why related what is happening now with his result assault on gaza to this holocaust film and talk specifically about that wall that separated the commandant's home from the concentration camp. >> thank you. thank you for inviting me on the show. why i said that? as you heard and the clip, i related the film both to -- in

the present moments of the israeli assault on gaza but also the innocent victims in israel on october 7. i mentioned yemen and ukraine, mariupol. the context of that which felt organic to the idea of the film come the questions of the film. i know politics and film award speeches can grate, but this felt pertinent to what the film is about. as you say, the walls that separate us from things that we choose not to look at, just as the friend who messaged me about the film saying he could not stop thinking about that in zone daily life. all of that just came together.

i was obviously thinking about it beforehand. i felt -- it was a nervous moment just to speak in front of a lot of people. i had never won an award for a film i had worked on but it felt organic to the idea of the film. you mentioned the wall in the film. of course the film stages and absolutely real situation which is the family of the commandant of auschwitz and his wife and their family and the life they lead with a nice house and garden that exactly abutted auschwitz in the early 1940's. and that wall, which is in the film and that situation, is

absolutely real. a metaphor, as my friend message said, where we can tune out systematic violence and justice, oppression, all sorts of things from our lives in order that we go on with them. i suppose the film asked that question, what are the walls in our lives -- do we have walls like that in our life? are there groups of people whom we care about more than others? groups of people socially, not friends and family. and it seems quite clear that is the case. i suppose the other thing about the film, we always wanted it to feel modern and about the present. everything about how we made it come the director of the film wanted to make it was to make it

feel like it was happening in the present and it reflected the present. and through the tools of filmmaking, cinema photography, acting, music, sound design to create this immersive feeling of present tense-ness which was a means to reflect as in the present. john has also spoken about how it is a political film. one of the things happening in the present is this extraordinary, staggering loss of innocent life and killing of innocent people in gaza. a response to the heinous mass killing of october 7. but he just seems very stark in the world that we have politically come our governments at least, have a different level

of care and attitude to those innocent people being killed in gaza and yemen and of course in other -- this selective empathy i think marks hundreds of years of human history. i mentioned that -- i spoke to that in the brief speech i was able to make. and isn't just something that was happening from 1940-1945 in germany. so all of those things came together in that moment in that speech. juan: james wilson, you mentioned the commandant and his family. what was the challenge in getting the audience to identify with these main characters, with this idyllic family up against this incomprehensible terror and

destruction that was happening -- occurring, that he was presiding over? >> well, in a way -- i mean, the challenge that you identified is the core of the film. the questions of the film. there is not like a message where we are trying to pin it, tie it up with a neat bow. the thinking space of the film, a film that tries to make a space in which you think, was to lean into some kind of identification with those people. as you say, the,. of auschwitz -- the commandant of auschwitz and his wife. to lean in the differences -- it

is the discourse of holocaust exceptionalism. that it stands apart from history come outside of history, the almost evil, mystical event. there's something a political and that idea. so the idea of this film was to look for the similarities rather than the differences between us and the perpetrator. amy: i want to go to a clip from your film when his wife speaks to her mother. amy: james wilson? >> just to pick up that last point, it was to look for all of

those details and aspects of our lives in terms of our aspirations, our desire for household comfort, the things that motivated and drove them -- amy: james wilson, we will leave it there. congratulations on your oscar nomi