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criminal cases. plus, second term warning. and alarming new report about the no holds barred's legal minds trump once and his administration. and maga mike johnson's ties to the christian nationalist movement in this country. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. anytime that you are alone bait

looking over your shoulder. that was just one of the threats fbi investigators say an alabama man left on the voice mail of fulton county district attorney fani willis on august 6th. days before she brought charges against donald trump and 18 of his associates for seeking to overturn the 2020 election. and there were many more direct -- willis and fulton county sheriff patrick labonte both were not going to repeat them here. this week, federal prosecutors announced after right hansen, the second is now facing two counts of transmitting and estate threats to injure willis and labonte. not the timing of this is noteworthy, because one day before hansen left his voice mail on august 5th, a tes woman allegedly delivered a death threat to the new chambers of china chutkan presiding over that federal election interference case and

washington d. c.. and then on august 4th, before any of the threats were made, the ex president published now infamous social media post declaring in all caps, if you go after me i'm coming after you. trump publicly attacked his previous enemies, with alternate before. all but explicitly directing his followers to engage in a targeted harassment campaign against these judges. and the threats? well, they keep rolling in. trump almost certainly knows how this pattern works by. now he saw just how great his influence over his supporters was on january the 6th. in the months before the insurrection, he was favoring the posting, campaigning to sow doubt and get people riled up about election fraud we all know did not exist. and that we're witnessing trump take a similar track, as he faces consequences for those actions. on thursday, at a rally in houston, texas trump entered

with a song by the so-called january 6th choir. a group of inmates, detained on charges related to the insurrection. he called his individuals hostages. he didn't do it once. he did it twice. earlier the day he took to his failed social media site to smear judge arthur and karen who is presiding over his new york civil fraud trial as a quote, trump hating radical left democrat operative. trump's words. what point we question if donald trump's real goal here is to actually produce not just threats of violence but actual violence. perhapsven another january 6th. in front of the show -- right in the nation this, week trump strikes don't help his case, don't help his poll numbers, and certainly don't help with all the criminal trials waiting for him once this civil one wraps up. trump's torching violence for the sake of violence. there is no upside alvaro than his own lost for bloody retribution. >> join me now this hour eddie

glaude, msnbc political analyst anthony james s mcdonald with a professor at princeton university. renato mariotti, former federal prosecutor -- and michelle goldberg, msnbc political analyst and a columnist for the new york times. great to have all three of you with us. eddie, let me start with you. i'm curious to hear your thoughts on your colleagues put a friend of this network, someone we speak to frequently and what his take was that trump's threats -- it's not about politics. they don't help his case -- he's courting violence solely for the sake of violence. >> i understand what's behind kelly's formulation, but i think he's a little bit more strategic. i think trump according violence, as actually trying to force those who are trying to prosecute him to pause, to think twice.

so there's always the calculation what will it mean for that nation for us to hold this man accountable? and if his second amendment people, remember he described his people as second amendment people when he was running against hillary clinton. if those people pose a genuine, violent threat maybe they will pause. so i understand what the guy saying but i also think there are some strategic dimension to what trump is trying to do here. >> that's a very interesting point. but raising the stakes, and making it costly for these decision-makers about how to persuade the oath him twice and perhaps not want to pay that price. renata, when you are issuing or expanding this gag order that we saw against trump, to you think the judges are considering the possibility of this violence directed not just work them or their clerks, but the broader public? >> i do. i think it's most acute in the case of the judge arthur engoron in new york -- being harassed not by trump but his lawyers, using that as a tactic to get around the gag

order placed on trump. i like the professor i think this is strategic. trump is going to lose this trial. he's basically already lost the. question is how badly is he going to lose. and i think he's trying to create a new bogeyman for his supporters to go after. he wants to blame the system, blame the process. stirrup hatred. and distract from the real issues here. so if he can create some sort of a first amendment issue, he can say he's being silenced or gag, ultimately that's good for trump. and so he's really trying to create a stage show for really what we should be talking about, the fact he committed fraud. the fact he's about to lose that fraud trial and the fact he's going to be convicted, very likely, of crimes. in addition to them. >> michelle, if the average person had posted on social media anything that fanned the flames of an event, i wouldn't

remotely, even close to insurrection, automation will be far more careful with how people act online going forward, those individuals. and yet, trump here is doubling down. what do you see his ultimate strategy is? >> look, i think if an average person who was you know, under multiple criminal indictments, posted threats against law enforcement and judicial personnel, and was fined twice and kept doing it, they would be locked up. and so, we have seen trump be treated with kid gloves. and i think part of a strategy is to ensure he's continue to be treated with kid gloves. like eddie, i think he is trite dormant to make anyone can involved in these cases during twice. and also trump has this history of finding ordinary people involved in bureaucratic administration of democracy, demonize and then, seeking his followers on of. then we saw this ruby freeman, and with other people. that's what he's doing to this clerk in the new york

courthouse whose life is likely being turned upside down by him leading this conspiracy theory. and similarly when mckay cabins, the writer at the atlantic interviewed mitt romney for his book, mitt romney said the other senators have wanted to vote to convict donald trump, but hesitated refused, because they knew it would require them to hire security for themselves and their family. so donald trump already has seen the way his threats are able to have, in the past, brought him immunity. >> eddie, do we have a historical precedent for a time like this when the standard bearer of a major political party conducts himself, i would argue, like a mob boss seemingly with no concern whatsoever for the violence his supporters engage in?

and no violence has been a hallmark of some of your politics for decades but to have it is the hallmark of a party and the standard bearer of that party, seems unprecedented to me. but correct me if i'm wrong. >> i think it's unprecedented in relation to a former president of the united states, but it's not unprecedented in terms of the political party. when you think about the reconstruction, the assault on the effort to pin a genuine democracy there is an all out effort that is violent. it's extremely violent. to undermine democratic processes, to include the formerly enslaved and do the body politic. and it had everything to do with attacking poll workers, attacking folk at the local level who are trying to simply in some ways implement the changes the shift in american society. so there is a sense in which the specter of violence and the act of violence to be a part of american politics for a long, long time. and so, here we have, in this

moment, something unprecedented, it's the president. we have the specter of violence. and we have the possibility, actually, of real violence, which we've seen. >> renato, the judge and donald trump's civil fraud trial issued a gag order on his lawyers, saying they're repeated inappropriate remarks about court staff and the hundreds of threats the court has received since the trial began were contributing to that. how unusual is a move like that to be issued against a lawyer? >> it is incredibly unusual. i have to tell you a man when i'm in front of a judge particularly when it's a bench trial there is no jury. and i'm trying to convince the judge of something. going out of my way to violate the judges orders is basically the last thing that i possibly would be considering doing. so very, very personal strategic and i would really think they were carrying donald trump's water here. i think this is liberal move to try to provoke the judge, to

try to create a sideshow to try to create some episodes that could be shown in supporters to make it look what the judge is biased, creates an issue. that's what i think that we're doing here and i think the judge's right to act against that. because ultimately they are enabling him. and it's got to be frustrating for the judge. because usually lower respect judges. we respect the judiciary. that's actually part of our professional responsibility. and it's shameful what the floors are doing. >> michelle, i've got to ask you to take a step back and look at the picture between now and the election. you've put these trials, their potential outcome. we've got the primaries, we've certainly caught -- the republican convention. what are the chances that we, we even have these trials in places like colorado and elsewhere that may prevent trump from being on the ballot that would actually add to the

pressure. that when you take a step back and survey the landscape, of all of these things to potentially build the pressure, how likely are we to see a repeat of january the 6th, more violence more protests, and the way donald trump wants his followers to engage? >> look, i don't doubt there is going to be violence in the run up to the 2024 election. i'd be extraordinarily surprised if there wasn't. but i also think we need to be -- the incredibly chilling possibility donald trump could simply won this election and the polls show he is, sometimes a fraction of a point ahead sometimes a fraction of a point behind the theorists winning states. he might be kicked off the ballot in colorado he's probably never going to win colorado. and he's telling us, every single day how he would govern. and yet the election many people have said this but the strategy to win the election is a strategy to blustery through these trials, one and the same, because the things on the

change at this point of skating on these many, many charges is to win the election and harness the power of the state on his behalf. >> panel, play stick around. we have got a lot more to discuss. including a new report about how donald trump and his backers dangerously what more risk taking, aggressive floors and a possible second term. we heard michelle talk about that a second ago. but first richard lui is here with us. >> some of the stories we are following. secretary of state anthony blinken met with leaders from middle east nations in jordan. blinken and leaders did not agree on a cease-fire, egypt called for one immediately with no conditions. the u.s. and jordan said they merely want a pause in fighting. that search continues for victims of friday's 5. 6 magnitude earthquake in nepal. 137 people are confirmed dead as of now. dozens more injured.

officials cautioning the death toll is likely to rise as damaged communications to the area are restored. and india's capital had the worst air quality of any city in the world, friday. air quality index there hit 500 in new delhi. that's the highest measurement will go. that's 100 times the limit that the world health organization says is healthy. more ayman with ayman mohyeldin after the break. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects

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terrifying glimpse into the dangerous of a possible second donald trump presidency. and what could actually mean for the rule of law in this country as we know it. according to new reporting from the new york times, the ex president and his allies are hard at work drawing up a list of lawyers who would help trum carry out a radical second term agenda. with no questions asked, trump is reportedly looking for lawyers, both for positions inside thehite house and other agencies throughout the initiative branch would be willing to embrace, quote, theories that more establishment lawyers would reject. jeez, i wonder what that might mean. and this time around, it seems that even if attorneys from the ultra conservative federalist society there aren't extreme enough for the ex president, believe it or not. in part, quote, hard right always of mr. trump and currently speak of typical federalist society member's as squish is, too worried about maintaining your standing in polite society. the employment prospects at big bowl forums to advance their

movements most contentious tactics and goes. forget experience or conservative credentials, it appears the only litmus test for a spot and the second trump administration is a lower absolute and unflinching loyalty to the disgraced ex president. back in 2020, trump felt and his attempt to hold on to power, due in part to the decision of several members of his department of justice to stand up against trump and for the rule of law. during the dramatic oval office meeting on january 3rd, 2021, top doj officials nded together and teatened to regn if trump loyalist jeffrey clark replaced the acting attorney general jeffrey rosen, following rosen's refusal to investigate baseless election fraud claims. that threat was enough to stop trump from installing clark as head of the doj and using the agency's immense powers to hold on to the presidency. but, and just think about this

for a second, if the switch reporting plays out, come 2024, trump's justice department will consist of nothing but yes men whose loyalty won't be to the country or constitution or rule of law, but to donald trump. himself. my panel is back with me to discuss this. michelle i'll start with you since you brought it up in our first segment there. the idea of what a stake in the trump presidency might look like. what's your reaction to this new york times reporting and what would happen to the rule of law if donald trump is back in power? >> i think the rule of law would become a farce. it would become, you know, paper thin. it's not just lawyers. there is also various other projects that are seeking to make sure the quote unquote deep state not foil trump and trump wasn't this time around.

before trump had taken over the republican party, he relied on traditional republican invitations to staff administration. now he has, and the people around him know a little bit more about how things work, and if you think about all the people, all the sort of quote unquote normal republicans, or even how foot normal republicans and answer of trump, have either been indicted or they have written memoirs trying to justify their actions. and so, what is left, right? what is left is really that drags. what is left is stephen miller, frankly, who is behind this, who's behind the search for legal minds to staff the new trump administration. so a mansion and administration full of little stephen miller's. >> god, i don't even want to imagine that. all michelle, don't put that thought my head, please. [laughter] professor, your thoughts on

this. what does it say about the scope of trump's second term administration is that he doesn't even do the federalist society is conservative enough for his planned agenda? >> he says that a second trump agenda is the end of american democracy. or a dam near will be. and look. we see the kind of thin line, ayman, between those who believe and a kind of expensive executive branch and imperial presidency, and those who believe in an autocratic strongman, with that democratic constraint. so bill barr believed in an imperial presidency, an expanded executive power. and we see those republicans, going back to nixon, and all those folks that came out of the administration, who believed in this idea of executive power, unchecked by, in some ways, the branches. but with trump and stephen miller, and those folk, it's not about expanded executive power. it's about an strong man who will dismantle checks and balances. who will fundamentally undermined the foundations of american democracy. this should let democrats know that this is a five alarm fire. they need to get busy. because if this man wins, the republic is in jeopardy. >> i'm not sure they feel it's a five alarm fire right now on any of the front they were

dealing with. certainly here domestically and overseas. renato, you've got john mitnoick who was appointed as a trump appointed counsel on homeland security. he told the times, no quified attorneys with integrity would have any desire to serve a second trump term. are there any guardrails that are in place, if you will, to prevent or reduce the extent of damage these individuals could unload on the rule of law if trump gets his way? >> very challenging, ayman because we saw that impeachment does not work. for so many issues, that's ultimately what the founders thought was going to be the

solution. and i don't think they anticipated the type of polarization and political parties that we have today. we are no matter what donald trump decides to do, even if he decides to lead an attack against the capital, that results in many of those senators being in danger, running for their lives, they will still vote not to convict him. so i think it's very dangerous. we saw you mentioned a moment ago some of these, frankly, some really principled individuals who while i disagree with him on many points were not willing to let jeffrey clark hijack the department of justice. but what we're gonna see now is someone like john eastman or jeffrey clark heading up the department of justice. people who are indicted criminals. and when we had someone like

don mcgahn previously stopping donald trump, for example, from firing special counsel mueller, we had lawyers at the department of homeland security saying, you cannot keep separating children from the parents. god only knows the horrors we're gonna have because we do not have any real checks and balances, ultimately the executive branch is going to be doing whatever it can without regard for law and the united states congress is going to be paralyzed and refuse to stop trump from doing that. >> all right, renato mariotti, michelle goldberg, thanks to both of you. professor eddie glaude, please stick around. we're gonna have more to discuss later in the show. but first, maga mike johnson's words are setting off alarm bells -- my next guest will explain why. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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in the world that has been funded upon a creed. we've heard the time and time before. that was the sentiment of above the newly elected house speaker mike johnson this week will represent the ideals of british statesman g. k. chesterton. that mention of an american creed set off alarm bells for historian kristin du mez, because it's a belief commonly

held by both evangelicals and christian nationalists. and now we wouldn't look too deeply into a one-off line in a speech, except it isn't just a one-off line. johnson has previously suggested he doesn't believe and the concept of the separation of church and state. in 2022, an episode of a podcast he hosts with his wife kelly johnson, he said, quote. the founders wanted to protect the church from and encroaching state, not the other way around. his mother jones reported this week, johnson used to conduct seminars promoting the u.s. as a cristian nation. not removed on description for one of them included -- can or heritage as a christian nation be preserved? joining me now is historian kristin du mez, author of jesus and john wayne. great to have you on the show. -- thank you for making time. let me just ask you to define as you see it, christian nationalism. what is it, what to its

adherence believe and why is it so dangerous? >> generally speaking question ashland some is the idea that america was founded as a christian nation and needs to be defended as such there is a sense that what was once firmly established has been lost. usually the point of the 1960s. and there is a need to restore that christian foundation along with this goes and idea of us versus them. true americans are christian americans. and the laws of the nation ought to be based on god's loss. and anybody against this view is not a true american. and really shouldn't be given the authority to shape the nation. >> and i want to just point out in an interview you did with politico you note you're not using the term christian nationalist as a perjorative. you say it's merely a descriptive device, which leads me to the beliefs of mike johnson.

in particular, does he qualify in your definition as a christian nationalist? >> yeah. this is the term scholars have been using for a very long time. only very recently or people self identifying as christian nationalists. i don't know that mike johnson has self identified as won, but he certainly fits all of the criteria that scholars have used to talk about christian nationalism. so we tend to talk about people adhering to christian nationalist commitments or being sympathetic to those. and yes mike johnson absolutely, his entire career his legal career, his legislative career, has really been dedicated to expanding the power of conservative christianity in the united states. >> in your interview you told quite a bit about david barton. tell us who he is, what role

has he played in shaping this american evangelical space, and how it impacts or touches upon our politics? >> mike johnson told about the profound influence that david barton has had on him for decades now. david barton is a name that is familiar to evangelicals and familiar to evangelical historians. he's a pseudo-historian. incredibly popular in evangelical spaces. in the 1980s, he founds an organization called wall builders, which purports that the separation of church and state is a myth. and he's written numerous books and lead seminars and really advanced this notion across the evangelical world. so that, if you listen to christen radio, you'll hear these ideas. if you go into a christian bookstore, we'll encounter these ideas. basically he argues that jefferson didn't establish the separation of church and state to keep the church from

influencing the state. he was simply trying to protect the church from the state. and he argued that the nation is founded on god's laws. that's what the founders wanted. he kind of presents the founding fathers as contemporary evangelicals, essentially. and argues that funder the country and faced its laws and its constitution on gods laws. all of this has been thoroughly debunked by historians, by real historians, by fellow christian historians. but that has not in any way affected his popularity and evangelical spaces. >> if you were to take the logic that's espoused by christian nationalists, and is modern-day form, what would that look like for our politics?

i understand what they argued historically about the separation of church and state, and to protect the church from the state. but if you were to apply that to practical terms in modern day 2023 america, what is it that christian nationalists want america to be operating like today? >> it's really concerning, because your build and your philosophy on this myth of christian america and insist that the constitution reflects gods laws and was designed to do so. then any interpretation of the constitution, that seems to go against their understanding of gods law, is a illegitimate. so when they talk about rights, any rights that go up against gods law are not going to be protected in the constitution. so when we're looking at the rights of lgbtq americans, right, you're not gonna find those in their understanding of the constitution. and so fair underneath of law is based first on god's law, and the consent of the governed has to take place only in that context.

and this is where you often hear them talk about, america is not a democracy, it is a republic. and by that, they mean it is a christian republic and it must reflect god's laws. >> scary thought. kristin du mez thank you so much for joining us. greatly appreciate your insights this evening. coming up, we're going to switch gears and reflect on the line between antisemitism and freedom of speech, amid a raging debate on the israel-hamas war on college campuses. stay with us. take a moment to pause and ask, why did you get vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia? i help others. but i need to help protect myself. honestly? i couldn't afford to get sick. i want to be there for this one. i can't if i'm sick. pneumococcal pneumonia is a potentially serious bacterial lung disease. you may be at risk if you're 19 to 64 with certain chronic conditions. or if you're 65 or older. don't pause a moment longer. ask your doctor or pharmacist about getting vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia today.

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it could for union, students were locked inside a library as pro palestinian demonstrators chanted and bang the doors. columbia university, jewish students say they hung posters of israeli hostages on campus, only to have the rock down. the hostilities go the other way as well. last, not muslim student at stanford was hit by a car, and now the california highway paol is investigating the attack as a hate crime. let's be clear here for a moment. these incidents should never happen and we must condemn them in the strongest terms possible. at the same time, some of the reaction we're seeing to these tensions, risks shutting down necessary conversations about the palestinian cause and israel's aggression in gaza. listen to what columbia law school professor william jacobson said this week on this network. >> this is not something that started on campuses on october 7th. you have a combination of 20 years of gross demonization of israel by the boycott that -- groups like students for justice and palestine, and by a

lot of professors. multiple academic associations have endorsed that, holding israel out as uniquely evil. >> the anti-defamation league in the louis brandeis center for human rights under law published an open look at last thursday urging colleges and university administrations to, quote, mediately investigator campus chapters of stewart's for justice and palestine for, quote, potential violations of the prohibition against materially supporting a foreign terrorist organization. u.s. senate passed a intimate resolution condemning what it called anti israel pro hamas student groups across the country. people across many professional industries, journalism, environment, entertainment, technology, they claim they're being forced to resign or being fired for taking a stance against israel's operation in gaza and four vocalizing support for the palestinian cause. we have come to a point where criticism of israel is increasingly being labeled as antisemitic.

but the two should not be conflated. this week, the aclu published an open letter calling on college and university presidents across the country to, quote, urge you to reject calls to investigate, disband, or penalized student groups on the basis of the recognize of free speech rights. utter litter, hundreds of jewish writers, artists, and activists wrote an open letter entitled a dangerous conflation, writing, quote, in our grief we are horrified to see the fight against antisemitism weaponized as a pretext for war crimes with stated genocidal intent. surely, hopefully, in a country that values free speech and small democratic values, space should be made to have difficult and necessary conversations about this war. after the break, my conversation with two college professors eddie glaude and leroy sternfield. we'll be right back. [coughing] copd isn't pretty. [coughing]

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with all the nutrients dogs need— instead of dried pellets. just food made for the health of dogs. delivered in packs portioned for your dog. it's amazing what real food can do. >> here now is lior sternfeld who is associate professor -- back with me anderson b. c. political analyst eddie glaude junior, he's also a distinguished professor at princeton university. gentlemen, thank you to you both for joining us. professor, i would like to start with. you you sop right before the break i play the soundbite of cornell -- connecting antisemitism with the bts movement, the boycott

divest sanction movement and criticism of israel. as a professor of jewish studies, what is your stance on that argument? >> i completely disagree with the idea that supporting bts is in and of itself a form of antisemitism. university campuses should provide the space the safe space for students to feel -- to be able to have open an honest conversation about israel and palestine. universities have been trying to -- any kind of intellectually leadership and they prevented -- they created places that are not welcoming. students and professors should feel that their identity is not under attack.

and the bds is one form. i've many disagreements with the tactics of the bds movement. i agree with some points of it but this is not antisemitism. we -- buy defining this as antisemitism, we are losing sight of real danger of antisemitism. >> yes, and that's why want to have this conversation. the brushing of broad strokes of criticism and discussion is difficult conversations that need to be have as simply being antisemitic. professor eddie glaude, we've seen attempts in the past of stifling conversations the press whether it's a discrediting crt, black history, or banning books. we see that manifest and different form. what is at stake here if we cannot have open and honest conversations no matter how difficult they are about israel 's aggressions on gaza or it's broader treatment of palestinians in this precise

moment? >> some reflection of the contraction of the space for everyday ordinary people to engage in the kinds of debates that are necessary for the country to move forward. if democracy doesn't have vibrant spaces where people with different views, ayman, can come and have disagreements without resorting to violence, then democracy itself is in jeopardy. look, we've talked about cornell, we've talked about cooper union, we've talked about -- the mention columbia. there has been mention of -- their over 4000 every year granting institutions of colleges and universities in the country, over 4000, over 6000 generally -- nearly 6000 generally. and what we do know is that across college campuses, folks are having hard conversations. some protest or civil. some are not so simple. and what we see as an attempt to stifle debate and being, i

think, yoked to this political view that universities and college campuses are these hotbeds of an ableism. before the israel-hamas war jumped -- exploded, there was all this talk about viewpoint diversity in universities and colleges. and what do they mean by that? they mean that conservative voices won't allow to speak. you can say certain things because political correctness and whatnot. and now we see the very opposite here. so we need to understand this as a feature of the contraption of the face of the united states that is in some ways the future of the crisis that we face as a democracy. >> professor sternfeld, i wanted to share some thoughts with you and getour thoughts on it. this is from a post of a -- he wrote a piece entitled no

longer part of us about wh belongs to the jewish community in this mont. he writes, quote, the prominence of visibly jewish anti zionists and the ongoing flood of bile and opprobrium targeting the jewish state in the aftermath of the worst massacre of jews since the holocaust should repulse us all. there have been thousands -- we should note a thousands of jewish people taking to the streets in support of palestinians across the world. is he saying that there are no longer -- there is no longer room, or there are no longer belong in the jewish community in the religion because they've taken this position to support palestinian rights? how do you feel about that? >> well, it is heinous. and this is part of them trying to redraw the boundaries of who belongs and who cannot belong. nobody will tell me that i am jewish enough or not jewish enough. i believe that there's a jewish moral and jewish values. my values, my jewish compass shows me that i need to oppose the dehumanization and war

crimes regardless of who is committing it. everyone should be appalled by this kind of rejection of universal values and pushing out jews who try to speak out. this is totally unacceptable. and i hope that american jewish communities that allowed at least until now more of an open discussion, i hope that american jewish community will respond to this kind of statement. a public statement. >> professor eddie glaude, i want to get your thoughts on the administrations of these universities and you rightfully pointed out, we have 4000 plus universities. so many times the universities

are seen through the lens of academia and the discussion. at the same time, we know there's a lot of pressure that's proton universities from the boards, from donors, from people outside. and we've seen that least in this conversation. who's donating to these universities, money coming from the arab gulf that somehow tainting these universities and making them no longer independent. give me your thoughts on what the role of the administration of these universities are here in terms of protecting the students, making sure students have a safe place to learn, but also maintaining their independence from outside influence and money.

>> it's difficult to have to be the -- other institutions. and that involves of course dealing with boards under donor base. and for public institutions, that's a very complicated notion. it also has to do with protecting -- providing the space where there are students to become the kinds of people that they're growing up to be. so it's a very difficult challenge. but i was sitting here thinking, ayman, as we were talking, about my role as a teacher. as a professor. i'm supposed to ask difficult questions. and the difficult question that i have to ask is this one, yes, there was evil, there was evidence on october 7th. evil, yes. but is that evil the fact that israel experienced it, does it then give it license to act with impunity? to act beyond the bounds of international law? without moral constraints? another question i would ask as a professor, how should the palestinians respond? if bds it is evil and it's violent? if the march to return was evil and is not violent? how are they to fight, to resist? and those are questions that

you set the context for students to fight and grapple, right? but it seems to me that we are locked in the semiotic cage where we cannot think outside of a certain set of assumptions without being labeled as being -- remember dr. king rejected the riots. he rejected violence, but he understood the costs. he denounced the violence but he stood in solidarity with the cause. you don't have to agree with matt turner tender stand why he did what he did. so this is part of the work that we have to do on college campuses and avoid all the hyperbole and the vitriol that is defining how we're going about our business educating our students. >> we're certainly grateful for both of you and what you're trying to junior college campuses. i hope we can continue this conversation. i know this is a conversation that we're gonna need to keep having time and time again. as the tragedy in the middle east continues to play out. professor eddie glaude, professor lior sternfeld, i can't thank you enough for your time and your insights. thank you. make sure to come back tomorrow night nine eastern here on msnbc. i'll be joined by clint

kirschner, tim miller, don edwards as donald trump gets ready to take the stand in his civil fraud trial and a test this will be for our legal system. until then, i am ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good night. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley ( ♪♪ ) we're still going for that nice catch. we're still going for that sweet shot. and with higher stroke risk from afib not caused by a heart valve problem, we're going for a better treatment than warfarin. eliquis.

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