action. >> fraud. >> correct. it's hard to see the testimony that has come in so far changing his mind on that. really just a question of what the remedies will be, the damages, although there are several other counts he will have to decide. those are really on the margins right now. >> $250 million from the trump organization for them to stop doing business. we'll see how the judge falls on that. thank you for joining us. really good to have you. that will do it for me at the same time "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. it was only a matter of time. today acts being described by officials as domestic terrorism. election officials and other government officials are on high alert after fentanyl-laced letters were sent to officials.

georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger who lost a child to fentanyl poisoning sounded the alarm. >> i want to really emphasize the seriousness of this. some people like to call fentanyl a drug. but it's actually poison. it will kill you. it will kill you very quickly, very easily, and it is very dangerous. we lost our son five and a half years ago due to fentanyl overdose. we know how deadly this stuff is. it is very, very serious and we take it that way. anyone who holds elected office, anyone who wants to hold elected office coming through post 2024 elections, they're running for high office in this land, they need to contend with this stuff. when someone asked, what do you think about this? if they don't condemn this, they're not worthy of the office they're running for. this is domestic terrorism and it needs to be condemned by anyone who holds elected office and anyone who wants to hold elected office anywhere in america. >> for our part, we will keep

track of who heeds his call. to condemn what georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger is describing today as domestic terrorism. the letter was sent but not received by an election office in fulton county, georgia. the site of election fraud conspiracies peddled by the expresident and list allies where donald trump and a dozen other co-defendants are due to stand trial for their criminal enterprise that sought to overturn the results of the 2020 election there. raffensperger added as a precaution, workers in the fulton county office are being trained to use narcan. it is a drug that is used to prevent overdoses from fentanyl. it is a situation that is safe to say, no one should be put in for simply doing their job. that letter is unfortunately part of a dangerous pattern that has emerged in the lastouple days. authorities in at least two states are investigating a spate of suspicious envelopes sent to election offices this week in what one state official called

an act of domestic terrorism. washington secretary of state steve hobs said in a statement that envelopes containing unknown powdery substances were found, prompting evacuations of those offices. and breaking this afternoon, the fbi field office in portland, oregon, confirms suspicious letters were sent to several ballot counting krers in oregon. countering threats has become a major priority for the department of justice. the ap reported earlier this year that more than a dozen people nationally have been charged with threatening election workers by a justice department unit, trying to stem the tide of graphic and violent threats against the very people who count and secure the vote in america. the threat of violence looming over election officials and election workers and election facilities is where we begin today with some of our favorite experts and friends. the former assistant director for counter intelligence at the

fbi frank figliuzzi is here for the hour. we're happy to have in studio, secretary of state joss lip benson and director of the public policy program at hunter college. i start with you for the latest from law enforcement. what do you understand about the fentanyl-laced envelopes and the three different locations we know about as we come on the air? >> yeah. fbi offices in at least three locations, atlanta, portland, and seattle are engaged. and i'm learning that there might be even further locations yet to be revealed. look, we also know, if you want to go back. it's very interesting. there are media reports of something very similar happening, of fentanyl-laced or trace amounts sent to election offices in washington state. that letter was believed to have originated in the portland, oregon area. it may be that this is the same

person. we can't yet determine whether that case was ever solved. someone is out there doing this. i find it interesting from a law enforcement perspective that the letter sent to fulton county appears to have been intercepted on its way. it never got to its intended target. that tells me law enforcement and postal inspectors know what they're looking for and they understand in the mail system, if you see this with this post mark, with these writings on the envelope, you stop it. that appears to have prevented this from getting to its intended target. it will not stop prosecutors from charging federally whoever is doing this with severe consequences to include election interference, interstate transportation of hazardous material, even, depending on the amount, potentially a weapon of mass destruction charge. yes, this is domestic terror if it is designed to stop the election. there is some reporting, vague reporting in this one of the letters in the pacific

northwest, the sender said something about wanting to stop the election. so this is the environment we're in. a potentially deadly substance being used to threaten and intimidate a government entity election official in the hopes of getting such a hazmat response, hazardous materials, rescue people, police, that you shut down or temporarily at least stop the counting of votes or the process, and look. it's kind of an old-fashioned but sad situation. we talk about cyber crime and hacking that might shut down the election process. here we are with the old-fashioned let's mail some threatening, potentially deadly substance. i wish i could say it's the last of what we'll see regarding a election threats but here it is. and doj, fbi actively involved. whoever did this will get captured but the mindset, you and i talked about it. the mindset we're dealing with is it doesn't matter. i'll to go federal prison. i'm doing this for a cause i believe in. let's have at it.

>> brad raffensperger used the word domestic terrorism and abc reporting also uses the words domestic terrorism. i've pressed you. you and i have had conversations about combatting domestic terrorism, contrasted to the tools available to combat foreign terrorism. i wonder if you can give us your assessment of how prepared we are to deal with this? >> so sending something in the mail like this. this harkens back to my days overseeing parts of the anthrax investigation. i was in south florida at that time and i can tell you there is an impressive capability among postal inspectors to find and isolate mail. this will get solved. the problem that you're raising, are the consequences, is the recourse we have sufficient. and yes, there will be stiff

penalties for sending fentanyl in the mail. is there something we can talk for domestic terrorism? no. there is not. the tools still aren't there that would match one the temperatures that would allow to us regularly prevent international terror attacks. here, and i'm still advocating for that domestic terrorism law. >> i wrote down in my notes, anthrax and unabomber. are there lessons from those two chapters in our country's law enforcement history that are being applied today? >> indeed. we're seeing sadly, you mentioned that we're going to train fulton county election workers on how to use narcan. this is a sad state of affairs. similarly, with regard to anthrax, the warnings went out. the fbi went public with the letter. here's what the letter looks like. here's what it might look like

inside. here's what anthrax is looking like in this case so that if you see it, if you're in an office setting. you're at home and you're seeing this happen, understand, you have to isolate this letter. and i can tell you across companies and government agencies, major changes occurred to where they received their mail. oftentimes now, offsite. i can tell you, sensitive government offices get their mail well offsite. it is processed with biohood. corporations did the same thing. changed their mail room procedures. get a biohood, examine things. this will be deployed here in terms of educating the public as to what we're seeing. don't be surprised if we see the police display what these envelopes look like. >> i want to show you what some of your sort of front line democracy folks that in a hearing on november 1st about, the threats to election workers. >> we don't feel safe in our

work because of the harassment and threats that are based in lies. just ask a former county recorder about her dogs, poisoned as a means of intimidation. her story is one of many officials from both political parties who have left the profession for the sake of their own physical, mental and emotional health and their families. >> in the common wealth of pennsylvania, we've lost about 70 election director or assistant election directors in our 67 counties. in some counties since 2020, they have changed election after election after election. and the consequences of that that i think are sometimes on display. when you have people running elections who have less experience running elections, they're more likely to make errors and make errors in an environment where everything is perceived as being intentional and malicious and seeking to change the outcome of the election. >> how are you doing?

we got to know you when there were trump supporters outside your home. you were inside with your son. that's something you testified to before the january 6th select committee. it has been a sustained threat environment but it does feel particularly acutely ramping up. >> i'm heartbroken, furious, angry, that people who put their lives on the line to make democracy work are facing this type of pressure and threat. but i am always optimistic. we have to protect the people who protect democracy and just minutes ago, the michigan state senate passed a bill strengthening penalties for those who would threaten election workers. so we know what is unfolding today is the beginning, not the end. and i'm angry about it but i know many of us will funnel that anger into determining these domestic terrorists will not win. >> do you have these conversations with election workers who say, i love you. i love the work but i have a young family.

i'm not doing it. >> yes. every day. >> what do you tell them? >> to what's best for you and your family and we will do our best to recruit, train and uplift folks? or we talk about the support they'll get. enhanced legal protections, the law enforcement support. we made $8 million in security grants available so they could doefrg from bullet proof glass to hire additional staff. we're there to provide support. went this is a challenging moment for everyone. i will say by and large in michigan, i've been really encouraged by the number of folks who stayed in the profession determined to make sure this type of hate will not win. >> at this stop everything? bullet proof glass? >> yeah. >> this is not a mystery. we don't need inspector clousseau. donald trump did this. the reason they need to spend money in their state on bullet-proof glass is donald trump. >> i fear it is not the only

state who will have to do this. i love what you're saying, derrellation through danger. that's kind of the message for these workers. having just voted the other day, these are senior citizens that are sitting at a table, taking anyone who comes in with a smile, with a sort of embrace to say we are joined with you in this civic activity, and proud of it on both side. to continue the hear these times of stories, my mind very quickly went to the unabomber. i so vividly remember that time and hoping we don't get back to this in some massive way. we have a year's worth of elections next year. to have to spend $8 million on election security, and i imagine every state will have to do some level of that. i hope they do it quickly. in addition to the expense of holding an election, now we have to provide millions more dollars just to make sure that the people who are involved in the process can do it.

>> yeah. donald trump, frank, told the lie that sowed the distress. if the person you trust most is donald trump and you believe that his victory was stolen from him because the election was rigged, you are, it's a straight line to anger. not to violence. the violence any of them feel inspired to carry out is against every law in the book. what i do not understand is as he sits very points ahead of the next choice in the republican primary ranks, how do you continue to stay what you've taught us with the threats in this country? >> there is a well-worn path between donald trump's rhetoric and violence, and violent acts.

we have case after case after case of that happening. people being inspired to violence by him and his cohorts. staying ahead of that is challenge enough for law enforcement on any given day. when you've got someone who is a leader leading his party in polling, right now for the presidency, it makes it even tougher. it makes it particularly tough when no one else from that party seems to be coming out and condemning these things. i won't hold my breath for someone from the gop to come out and condemn these mailings. they don't want to. it doesn't serve their purpose to do it. the bad news on this, getting ahead of things, they can't do it every day. they have to get it right every single day. and bad guy has to get it right once. and will i can't stand here and tell that you we're going to go prevent acts of domestic terror with any sense of guarantee. what do we need? we need the eyes and ears of the

american public. if you think you might know had a is doing this, maybe they're from the pacific northwest. maybe they're not. go ahead and call law enforcement. say i'm concerned. don't be that person who sits on this and goes, i knew this was the way to go and i didn't do it. see something, say something. and i'll add, sense something, say something. >> i want to show you a little more of what your counter part in arizona had to say about what doj can do to help. >> the reality is, you don't have a first amendment right to threaten people who are just doing their jobs, especially not in a population where the vast majority of whom, you know, get threatened because of their gender. a lot of those threats are gender-related. i agree the premise, the notion, and i agree also that not just a little more of that but also

potentially, more public promotion of the prosecutions, many of which have been very, very successful. the doj tends to be a little bit modest sometimes. but the reality is, if folks out there understand that this sort of behavior is criminal, and will result in prosecution, then hopefully we can get a lot of that antiamerican activity out of our civil society and get back to the notion of winners winning and losers trying harder next time instead of having to worry about political violence in our civil space. >> the politician who modeled the conduct of doing the office from, quote, winners winning and losers losing is donald trump. how do you achieve this, what he is articulating a, having doj publicize the prosecutions of the people who break the law when you still have someone creating a permission structure and a model of doing the opposite. >> yeah. we have to see that his goal,

the goal of autocrats is prevent them from participating in democracy. we have to make sure the american voters know it is them who can help save this, save democracy in this moment, from poll workers, if they see threats, to reject it on all fronts. we need to see the rejection of candidates who use lies and threats to gain power and scare people into either staying in power or getting elected. so that's one piece. we do also have to recognize law enforcement as doing a great deal of work to ensure there is accountability. what i try to communicate to people, if you're thinking of doing this, it won't work and you will end up in prison. you won't achieve your goals. we'll only come back and recruit more election workers. your plan will back fire and

you'll end up in jail. >> i want to give you the last word. i want to ask you what you're watching for behind the scenes in the investigation. >> in this particular investigation, i know about the fbi has partnered with postal inspectors now and i can tell you behind the scenes, post offices around the country are searching for more of these letters. and everything will be brought to bear. the fbi laboratory will be doing all kind of forensics on anything that has been discovered here. it's likely from the august incident, they're already moving on somebody even as we speak. this can't go on much longer. people can't live in fear for doing their jobs. if we see law enforcement come out with a press conference and display a letter, tell us about the evidence they have, they're not as close as i think. they need the public's help. so be watching for how much they

share with the public. >> okay. this feels like the nightmare scenario again. thank you for spending time with us on this. when we come back, jack smith's case against donald trump is coming into public view. how the special counsel plans to tie the expresident to the more than 1,000 capitol riot defendants in court. plus, republicans in michigan fighting against one of the most fundamental parts of a democracy, trying to overturn another election. today, trying to roll back a woman's right to abortion. a law that was put into effect by michigan voters. we'll talk more with michigan as he secretary of state. and later on capitol hill, one of the two political parties outright objecting to efforts to hold the united states supreme court accountable. guess which party that was. after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that

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the sweeping case that jack smith will bring against donald trump in the federal election interference trial is becoming much clearer. the new filings showcasing the plans to weave in the doj's special case of accountability of hundreds of defendants and to prosecute the expresident as an insurrectionist whose attempts to overturn the election culminated, jack smith argues, in the violent deadly attack on the capitol on january 6th. as politico puts it day, by combining the trump allegations with the riot, jack smith is unlocking a mountain of case law developed in those january 6th

riot cases to tie trump more clearly to the violence than he has been to date. in short, he's casting trump as one of the 1200 plus riot defendants who have already been charged. quote, prosecutors, of course, have an extraordinary wealth of evidence at their disposal. dozens if not hundreds of heads to charged in the riot have pointed directly at trump for motivating their conduct. thousands of trump supporters have begun marching to the capitol before trump urged them to conduct their march peacefully and patriotally. joining our conversation, the lead investigator for the january 6th committee, tim hagy is back with us. so i always sense that talking to you was the closest i could get to talking to any of the federal prosecutors or investigators working on these cases. and as the filings reveal more than anything else, we'll see until the trial itself. it's clear that is true.

and in the same way that you present the committee presented steven as a call and response, call and response. the granularity, they looked at their phone and left. >> it's completely fair. he's charged, nicole, with conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. and part of way the official proceeding was obstructed was by the violence. by the chaos that ensued at the capitol. that was a direct result of this incendiary rhetoric. fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore. it is part and parcel of the charged offenses. it is not a separate offense. judges have to parse whether or not there's a reason to admit evidence of other criminal conduct beyond that which is charged.

that is a rule, 404 b. this is not that. the evidence of what happened at the capitol is substantive evidence, that the president's attempt to disrupt the joint session. it was in fact disrupted by those people who said they were there because they believe the president's rhetoric about the election and they thought he invited them. so jack smith is holding a full house on this motion. more broadly on using all the evidence gathered in those blue collar cases at the capitol is direct he have in the case against the former president. >> i feel like some of us were looking for some tie to the trump from the broken flagpole. the tide of the violence is one of the three or four tools in his kit. it is pence, the lie about fraud, the call to doj. just say it is fraudulent. and my r buddies will do the rest and the violence as a tool to stop the official proceeding.

is that a better way to look at it? >> yeah. i would put those things in order. it is important to see the violence as the last tool that he pulled out of the tool box. the other tools were too blunt and didn't work. the first tool is the courts. he goes to court. he files 62 cases around the country. none of them successful. he then tries to appeal to republicans and state legislatures, state officials. doesn't work. they'll do their constitutional duty and interpret the results fairly in their states. he turns then to the justice department. that doesn't work. he then turns to his most loyal person, mike pence. when mike pence says no, that's the last door closing. the onlying too tool left is the violent mob launching on the joint session. the tools are increasing in desperation and frankly, increasing in danger. violence is the last and final tool in that tool box.

>> perhaps the most premeditated though. he's at this meeting, or plans a, b and c don't work out the way he wants them to. so he storms out, i don't know how he gets upstairs. i'll envision him storming or slinking upstairs. and then he puts in motion the violent mob. you've already created and produced it. the evidence is out in public of the premeditation of the violent mob. >> he knows he has a very strong following. he knows people pay attention and he has the ability to motivate conduct through his conduct. and yes, it is when he's told, you can't see his voting machines. you can't appoint sydney powell to investigate nonexistent voter fraud. mike pence is saying, i don't think, boss, i can do this. it is at that point he says be there. we'll be wild. and that is the spark, right?

the intentional spark that starts to focus attention on the joint session. before then, the joint session, there is really no attention paid to it within this plan. but for the lawyers who see that as a form in which the vice president or the fake electors could be relevant. >> so let me show you the evidence created, developed by the committee. >> president trump did not fail to act during the 187 minutes between leaving the ellipse and telling the mob to go home. he chose not to act. >> and i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of, the rioters got into the capitol. we need to go down and see the president now. and mark looked up at him and said, he doesn't want to do anything, pat. they're literally calling for the vice president to be f'ing hung. and mark said something to the effect of, you heard him. he thinks mike deserves it.

>> while the vice president was being evacuated from the senate, he called senator tommy tuberville. as he later recalled, he had to end the call so he could evacuate the senate claim better himself. let's listen. >> he didn't call my phone. he called somebody else. they handed it to me and i basically said mr. president, we're not doing much work here now because they just took our vice president out. as a matter of fact, i'm going to have to hang up on you. i have to leave. >> that evening, rudy giuliani called several of president trump's closest political allies in the hour before the joint session resumed. 7:02, he left a voicemail for senator tuberville. >> i should say, this is rudy giuliani, the president's lawyer. i'm calling you because i want to discuss with you how they're

trying to rush this hearing and how by need you, our republican friends, to try to slow it down so we can get these legislators to get more information to you. >> this is after, that i believe call happens after someone had been shot. certainly after violence, they engaged in their own testimony as medieval combat, what some of them who had served in combat had seen in combat. this cry for violence. >> it is chilling to see on january 6th, there was no indication of how far they would go, just the will of the people from coming to fruition. you see all these lies really culminating. this criminal activity, harm and pain and death to people. and so i think it is a cloud that still looms over our process today. and grateful to continue to see the criminal proceedings go forward. we can't forget how close we got

to losing our democracy on that day and how close we could get again in that cycle. >> i respect the state of the investigation into the fentanyl-laced envelopes. but it is our mistake if we separate out the buckets of violence in the country where there is an undertone, or potential political motive. because the person who attacked paul pelosi, we see justice moving on that front. it is under the same umbrella. fentanyl-laced envelopes may very well be part of it. the targets suggest it may be connected to lies about the election. january 6th. those people were only there because trump told them to come there. and they only did what they did because he stirred them up and incited them and sent them in there to, quote, hang mike pence. their words. it seems tying him to the violence in whatever way makes sense in this prosecution is so basic to holding them

accountable. >> it is. i take something tim said, it struck me when emthey believed in donald trump. i'll add a layer of nuance. they believed in him. why that's important, they didn't think he was just a man and the president. he stood there as a symbol for their cause. he was holding himself up as a leader but also an incredible symbol for this violent cause. so when we talked before on this set, and he mentioned today, the call and response as jack smith will try to weave that together. it will be pretty complex but he'll be able to do it. that call and response with such a person ishs cadence is what has gotten his supporters all over the country to engage in this behavior. and it doesn't stop because we say so. that's what is so scary about it. no intellectual conversation or

argument will keep this from happening again. that's why the accountability and the punishment becomes very important on the other side. as we watch this unfold, i'm so grateful for the january 6th committee. they'll have the abridged version of this very complex trial that we'll see. but it is something that we can go back to over and over and over again if we have any doubt that his involvement and will the control he has over those individuals. >> so mary trump was here and i think we can leave it to family members to put trump on the couch and analyze what it is. her theory about his supporters' devotion, is that he's a loser, i'm paraphrasing. if they feel like losers, watching another loser rage against the establishment makes them feel better. you're welcome to weigh in on the why or the psychology of that. i want to ask you if you think there's been any diminishment in the intensity of their support

for him. if you had to assess the threat today. >> i think it depends on who the they are. i think there's a hard core of ardent supporters whose fervor on his behalf has not dimmed. it has only strengthened. they see the special counsel investigation, our work as yet more evidence of a deep state that is intent upon taking down this change agent. i think there are a lot of reasonable people in this country who may have liked a lot of the policies the former president put forwards but are getting off when it comes to what they're seeing about his conduct with respect to january 6th and the election. the relevant question is that core of support, 25 or 30% of republicans is the 25 or 30% of america. how do we quantify that?

i'm not sure we know until we start to see people voting and even in the general election if he's on the ballot. so in some ways, it is exacerbated that division. in other ways, it has eroded support. i think there are a lot of people. they may like the border wall and they may like the china policy but they love democracy. they are not willing to abide the information they see come out. >> on the security side, a smaller, equally or more fervent base still represents the same security concerns? >> as frank said on your previous segment, it only takes one. law enforcement has to get it right all the time. so yes. the fervent nature of even a smaller and dwindling minority continues to be a serious threat. the fentanyl envelopes that are sent, as if we needed another reminder. people take this seriously. it will continue to be a threat. and again, it only takes one person to get through to cause

real harm. that has ripple effects across our system that we have got to be on point against again and again. >> thank you for spending time with us. we're really grateful. up next, one issue republicans really, really, really lost on this election day is still one that they're really, really, really committed to. we'll explain. to. we'll explain. the soul searche. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. [sfx: game controller] when occasional heartburn won't let you sleep. [sfx: game controller] get fast relief with tums+ heartburn + sleep support.

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we've lost 2018, 2020, we got trounced last night in 2023. i'm sick of republicans losing. look, people are clearing for losing. we've become a party of losers at the end of the day. >> he was really good at that part of the debate. kind of surprising to hear them admit it. the candidates appeared to want to look like they're grappling with their party's streak of losing, capped by tuesday's, what did he say, trouncing in the elections around the country this week. resounding victories for democrats and democratic policy positions across the country, driven by overwhelming enthusiasm for abortion, health care access, and anger and frustration for continuing efforts by republicans to criminalize them and take them away. most notably in ohio. more ballot initiative to hu numbers.ortion access won in

axios reports that in response, democrats are pushing to get similareasures on the ballot next year in key states such as arizona, nevada and florida, after voters explicitly endorsed abortion rights via ballot initiatives in seven states, since they overturned roe v. wade last year in california, kansas, kentucky, michigan, vermont and now ohio. despite the will of the voters being abundantly crystal clear to all of us now, republicans, instead of figuring out how to land on positions that don't enrage even their own voters, and cost them election after ection, are trying to override it. case in point. in michigan, tiabortion organizations and republican lawmakers have filed a lawsuit federal court challenging the legality of the voter approved constitutional amendment enshrining abortion access in that state.

michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson is back with us. is this going anywhere? >> look, if at first you don't succeed, double down on the losing strategies. >> i was a republican. that's sort of what we do. >> the irony of this, this is an initiative, an amendment supported overwhelmingly by voter on both sides of the aisle just a year ago. now you'll bring a lawsuit as some sort of winning ccessful, legal or political strategyo try to overturn the will of the voters. it was abundantly clear a few months ago. it's nonsensical. we have to he sue it as part of a national strategy to minimize or delegitimize ballot initiative efforts that have proven to be very successful in bringing us forward in pro democracy reforms. some sort of superiority that lawmaker elected maybe through a gerrymandering process. than the citizens that elect them.

i don't think it will succeed but we'll see how it plays out. >> i watched the antidemocratic measures. before ohio enshrined i think 60%, close to 60%. ohio is a state where president biden is pulling about 40%. so president biden's position on reproductive health care is 20 points more popular. 20 points of running room to try to persuade and appeal to those voters. before that was on the ballot tuesday, there was an antidemocratic measure that would have changed the rules. i feel like voters have become much savvier about antidemocratic moves, and i wonder, i feel like if gerrymandering were on the ballot now, voters understand when a party can't win on the substance, they rig the rules. that party is the republican party over and over and over again. how do you think in michigan that message was successfully communicated to voter? >> very simply and succinctly. democracy was on the ballot.

fundamental rights and freedoms were on the ballot in 2020, 2022. we said that again and again and i think they're on the ballot again in 2024. the more candidates can be aligned in just breaking down the choice in those very simple terms. we've seen voters respond. it turns out, male, female, black, white, people don't want their rights taken away from them. if the election is about that, the democrats will win. that's what we saw the last couple cycles. >> what do you attribute the results? >> abortion is on the ballot whether it technically is or not. every voter has been motivated by that issue. if you take this right away, where does it stop? >> because that's what they said. >> that's exactly right. if the strategy was for the last 10 to 20 years to make sure state legislatures get flipped and gubernatorial mansions get flipped so we can move to the

state level. this is the impact of that, right? even if your legislature is not going to support an issue like this, we'll just have everybody out there voting. right? we'll make this decision with our feet. it is beautiful to see. what it does is something that i've long been concerned about. even in off-year elections, how do we create civic engagement and voting? not just who is on the ballot but what's on the ballot, that we're consistently engaged in. if i can make a quick point, this is a fantastic time to push out kamala harris to be talking about this. >> she was out on election day. she was great on this issue. >> exactly right. to me -- >> she wasn't just out then. she's been out since the decision was overturned. >> if you put tuesday together with the polling, ago when that suggests to me is, the democratic message is absolutely

on point. and for all the good questions and concerns about kamala harris, she embodies a kind of intersectionality that is the future of our party. >> can i say it like a republican? >> what's that? >> joe biden's position and kamala harris's position on abortion is a super majority position. i think tuesday night put ohio in play. and i think kamala harris is as good of a messenger as anyone in the coalition. >> and she can talk about a whole host of other issues that are winning messages for the democratic party. from all the concern about her and her authenticity. >> why? >> it is part race, part mysogyny. if you think about her background, she was a prosecutor for pretty much her career. 95% of prosecutors in this country are white. so if you are a prosecutor, for example, who has to talk about

being tough on crime but also sensitive to criminal nationality, it is a very fine line you have to walk. and i think she spent a good chunk of her career doing that. but now she's in a position where she can't necessarily go out ahead of joe biden, but if we look at the campaign ad for the re-elect that the biden team put out. she was pretty prominent in it. which suggests to me, if biden won't be the face, she will be the face and she should be. >> joe biden and kamala harris's position on abortion wins in kentucky, it wins in ohio, it wins in kansas, it wins in north carolina. i think the tectonic shift has been for republicans. michigan did. i think josh shapiro ran on it. i don't think nationally, democrats are squeezing all the potential out of the issue. >> i think we'll see that and i think in a democracy thomas well. the fact that again, the choice,

the presidential race will come down to do we have a democracy in the future or not? if it is trump versus biden. whether the leaders make that clear to the american voter, if we can collectively and concisely do that, just as we've done in 2020 and 2022, then we'll see voters side with protecting their fundamental rights and freedom and protecting our democracy. >> it's pretty amazing. i mean, i feel like we orient ourselves around the threats. it is a pretty incredible hope that voters get all of this, the intersection of choice and democracy and voter suppression and all of that. it really is. >> i would say that is the through, whether it's the threats, the confusion, the chaos, the lies. everything we've seen. the ray of light is our democracy has actually gotten stronger. >> and i would say very quickly listening to senator scott yesterday trying to make a distinction between a 15-week

limit and a 15-week ban is the most ridiculous thing. >> i haven't talk so much about -- they take a substantive issue and describe it as a message problem. it's not a message problem. >> it's not a message problem. they just don't get that. >> correct. and they never will. but shh, basel! news out of capitol hill about the 2024 elections. we'll tell you about it. (♪♪) in this clinic, we pride ourselves on putting others first. it's on us to help care for our clients' well-being;

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i'm sarah escherich, i'm the life enrichment director at independence village, the senior living community in waukee, iowa. everybody here really, really make you feel like family and that they love you. our goal with tiktok was to enrich the lives of our residents and just to be able to show people what senior living can be like. i think i am a tiktok grandma. my kids think i am. i mean, we're the ones that are being entertained. time goes faster when you're having fun. som breaking news out of

capitol hill to tell you about. west virginia senator joe manchin has announced that he will not run for another term in 2024. we're back with secretary benson and basel. >> yeah. [ laughter ] >> that's news. so he was likely going to lose. so this was something that a lot of folks saw coming any way. it looks like the governor would have beat el paso him anyways. so we're looking at whether or not that actually comes to fruition. but it will be a republican seat. so democrats have a lot on their plate right now. chuck schumer has a lot on his plate right now. he has an opportunity to look at texas and florida. there is some hope there. right? but also, have to spend a little more time looking at montana and ohio. and democrats are going to be looking at those states. >> and what does manchin do? >> he says he is just going to go across the country and try to bridge the divide.

one hopes he doesn't decide to run yet another independent campaign as jill stein announced she is running again today. it just seems that people either don't like joe biden, don't like the democrats, but they should love democracy. and that is what democrats actually bring to the table, these independent campaigns and this undermining of what i believe are strong democratic sort of policies, really just gives the election back to donald trump. and people need to see past their own ambitions. >> i think 2024 is going to be a question for the american people to decide who are we going to be in this moment. are we going to coalesce behind democracy or allow it to be taken from us and really emerge into a country we may -- >> even democracy experts think if trump wins it's not four years of trump. that was the question last time among national security. people look at ought tox sis and democracies don't think he'll leave. >> no. i think we've seen the beginning of what he could bring to the

table in the 2022 election cycle. and i'm deeply concerned about the future of our democracy and how that would play out if the former president gets back into the white house. >> and if that doesn't focus the mind for people looking at other runs, i don't know what will. michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson, we're so glad you're in town and at the table. thank you so much. basel, thank you. we're always glad when you're at the table. up next for us, democrats on capitol hill pushing for changes at the united states supreme court. we'll talk to one of them. don't go anywhere. e your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare

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can't explain why he chose this fight. things were going pretty well. we were voting on judges. none of us would have picked. i voted for most of them. some people over here voted for others. sort of the way it works. and now we're in a ditch. i mean, it's going to be a long day. we're going to get zero done. you're going to have a complete [ bleep ] show. but if that's what you want, that's what you're going to get. >> headline for me is that lindsey graham thinks that's the ditch. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. that is how republicans responded today to an effort to hold one of the three branches of the united states government to the same kind of ethics accountability as all the others. with that, an obstruction. democrats on the senate judiciary committee have been pushing for an ethics code for the supreme court, an effort they have strengthened and accelerated in recent months in response to and in light of

reporting about conservative justices accepting free hospitality and travel without disclosing it properly. originally, the committee was scheduled to vote on subpoenas for republican donor harlan crow and conservative legal activist leonard leo. but overnight, republicans filed 88 amendments in an attempt to impede those votes. they got what they wanted, at least temporarily. the votes were delayed due to the barrage o amendments from republicans, but judiciary chair senator dick durbin vowed that the votes will still take place, saying this, quote, the highest court in the land cannot have the lowest ethical standards. he called out his republican colleagues for grandstanding. over the past few months we have learned a whole lot about the lavish gifts bestowed upon supreme court justices, people like clarence thomas and his expensive vacations gifted from crow, or 2008 fishing trip to alaska for justice samuel alito

coordinated by leo. it's a remarkable moment in our politics right now. republicans are trying to stop democrats from uncovering the truth about an institution with a record low approval rating from all americans. confidence in the highest court in the land currently stands at just 27%. according to the latest gallup polling. in addition to the lavish gifts, it was the supreme court that voted to overturn roe v. wade. it's a ruling which has caused republicans huge in every single election since the decision. including on tuesday, when the reddish state of ohio voted to enshrine abortion rights into their state constitution. senator sheldon whitehouse, a member of the senate judiciary committee, who has been a long-time advocate for more transparency and higher ethics wh comes to the court issued a statement on the subpoenas being held up today, saying this, quote, in an ordinary time and with an

ordinary supreme court, this would have been an unevtful day. billionaire who demonstrated interest in influencing the court making enormous secret gifts to justices obviously merits investigation. by putting up 90 endments, republicans jammed the grs of the committee. we will still go forward now thate have seen this strategy with united support on the democratic side for getting to the bottom of what is going on with this pattern of secret billionaire gifts to justices. that is where we start the hour. some of our favorite experts and friends, the aforementioned sheldon whitehouse of rhode island is ear. joining us director for fix the court gabe roth is back. state attorney for palm beach county david aronberg is back. senator, i start with you. i wonder, i want to start with tuesday night. i worked in politics. and when i worked in politics, i was always pretty skeptical of the polls, sometimes to the

pollsters' chagrin. but i feel like this issue of reproductive health care is about reproductive health care. it is also about the court. and i wonder how you saw tuesday night's results? >> well, first of all, i think tuesday night's results were an incredibly powerful public statement by the american people across the country in multiple elections that thanks, we do not appreciate having rights we've enjoyed for a generation taken away from us. so that's the baseline. then you throw in the court that did it, and it begins to smell a little rotten because of all of the machinations around the court of the far right-wing billionaires and how that decision among many others looks a lot like it has been delivered by the court for big donors who helped put the justices who delivered it on the court. >> you know, i also, again, have

drawn more of my past experiences as republican today that didn't cross in eight years, i'm not sure why, but republicans have relied on two things to drive their base, and it may all be replaced by frothy frenzy for donald trump. i don't know anymore. but they relied on shaping the court and overturning roe. those things are both gone. and i wonder what opportunities -- you've been talking about these issues. the idea that republicans are going to further weaken this thing that is a political ball and chain for them is almost laughable. part of me watched what they did today and said knock yourself out. i know you care about the court and the institutions. i wonder how you saw their antics today. >> yeah, i think politically, every time they draw attention to their efforts to defend the court from the most basic oversight to which every other federal judge is subject, they don't have a very good story to tell about it. and the degree of agitation about it on their part is really

unjustified by any normal ordinary sensible rational measure. what i think it has to go back to is the fact that they've got some very big billionaires who not only spent a lot of money to acquire this court, but spent a lot of money to acquire the republican party. if you look behind the big republican superpacs, i'm pretty sure you'll find the same billionaires that you find the behind the court capture operation. so they're in a state of real alarm that if they let down their big billionaires and let down the court that is delivering all these goodies for them, they're going to be in political harm's way. but the public has a completely different view of this, and it just shows how responsive republicans have become to a right-wing billionaire elite rather than to the regular normal voters. >> so tell us what happens next. >> so now that we've seen what they're going to try to do is flood the committee with last-minute amendments so that

in one night, you've got to try to get the entire democratic side aligned on 90 difficult votes. that's not going happen. but now that we know that that's their strategy, we can plan for it. and chairman durbin is going to call this back up and we'll go through whatever their amendments are, but we'll be ready and we'll get these subpoenas for harlan crow and for his corporations and for leonard leo, an then we'll move forward. interestingly too, the other billionaires have already started to cooperate with us. so we're beginning to make progress even before the subpoena vote. >> what do you want to ask crow personally? >> i want to know how many gifts there were just for starters. we don't know what the full array is of generosity that was given to clarence thomas or to his wife. we know that there is a lot, but figuring out what it all was is kind of the baseline, and then you want to look at how

interconnected it was. when you see that crow gave half a million dollars to justice thomas' wife's new entity that she set up, and then leonard leo was in the painting with clarence thomas, also directed $25,000 to mrs. thomas, you want to know what's the rationale behind all that. who is pulling what strings? how do these things actually connect? what's the plot line that connects all of these different episodes of let's just call it generosity for now. >> it's very generous. and let me ask the same question of leo, who has in some ways a more intricate -- fingers in every aspect of this on the political side and the judicial side. >> yeah, he has his fingers in all of this. one of thelers we got back from one of the billionaires talking about a free trip that he gave to justice alito announced that

he had given the free trip to alito after a conversation with leonard leo. and leonard leo is in the harlan crow painting and leonard leo sent the money to ginni thomas, and he went on a separate fishing trip with alito, on and on and on. almost wherever you touch this network of right wing billionaires and the justices they put on the court, you see their intermediary there, a little functionary leonard leo. so he is a very, very important center of this little web of scheming. >> is your theory of the case that there is going to be -- because the subpoenas will go forward. you will hopefully have a chance to ask these questions of these gentlemen, that there is some smoking gun, sore it to reveal for the american people who are paying very close attention now to the supreme court, just ask sam alito who is super cranky about it every time "the wall street journal" dials his home

phone, just to reveal to the american people how netted up and how corrupt it is? >> i think probably more the latter. we may turn up instances of law-breaking, particularly around tax filings or potential false statements that were made. but i think the bottom line here is that we simply cannot have a united states supreme court that is captured like a 19th century railroad commission and is doing what the railroad barons tell it. you can't live in a democracy with a court runs that way. and to fix that, the first thing you need to do is show to the american people the full depth of the problem so that we can all agree on the appropriate solution. >> do you think there is a tipping point for the court where at 27%. they have fallen the farthest the fastest in terms of any institution in american public or civic life. do you think there is a point where they come and play and say

uncle, we need ethics, help us, or do you think they're just too cocooned and bunkered to do that? >> no, i think there are two tipping points. one is the tipping point where the chief justice says i'm not going to wait for unanimity. if we have to vote through a proper ethics code 72, that's what we'll do. we took away women's rights 5-4. we can damn well vote for an ethics code 7-2. and that i think breaks the ice at the court. the second tipping point is when the judges on the judicial conference, the body that runs the judicial branch gets so fed up that they tell the chief justice look, this just doesn't stand any longer. we run our disciplinary procedures. we know what the rules are. we know what you've done is wrong, we know there is nonsense. this has to stop. and i think we're close to both of those tipping points. >> that's amazing. coy talk to you about this for hours and hours. we really appreciate. we'll stay on this.

hopefully you'll come back often. thank you very much for your time, senator whitehouse. >> thanks. >> gabe, let me bring you in on this. your thoughts. >> yeah, it's been quite disappointing to add to what senator whitehouse was saying how far behind the times chief justice roberts and the policymakers at the judicial conference are. there is a whole history of chief justices of the united states acting unilaterally to change policy. and i think that chief justice roberts has the ability to do that, to really put pressure on his fellow justices to enact, adopt, and abide by an ethics code. and then looking sort of further down the line with the judicial conference, they're the body that under federal law is supposed to be reviewing one of their committees is supposed to be reviewing all the various undisclosed gifts that propublica found, and seeing if there is reason to bring those gifts and those omissions in justice thomas's disclosure to

the attorney general. where is -- where are those judges? where is the judicial conference? where are the members of the committee on financial disclosure right now? so i think there is pressure elsewhere in the conference, as senator whitehouse has mentioned. there is obviously the senate judiciary committee is putting pressure on the chief justice by having these hearings and calling these subpoenas, and we're getting close. but the fact of the matter is this remains a burgeoning ethics scandal that can't stand, and the american people are frankly fed up with it. >> they are. and the american people i think weren't focused on the court for a long time. they are now. i wonder what work you think needs to be done in the next 12 months to make sure that people know this is the trump court? these are his three appointees who overturned roe v. wade, and it is his court that has plunged to its lowest approval ratings in the history of polling of the supreme court. >> i think trump is going to do it for us. i think trump is going to

continue to brag that he's the guy who overturned roe v. wade because of his justices. >> depending on where he is. >> that's right. he changes his speech depending on the audience. so when he goes before the maga folks, he loves to brag on it. you know, what happened to drain the swamp? drain the swamp only applies to other people's billionaires, i guess, because when it comes to republican billionaires who fund clarence thomas and sam alito, the republicans are rallying around them. and really, do you think that harlan crow is going to pay for clarence thomas' mother's home, a home she currently lives in if he wasn't one of nine, if he wasn't wearing the black robes? and as far as sam alito, you call him cranky. he gets invited to fancy trips to alaska. who wants to hang around with sam alito no i wouldn't invite him to a birthday party. he would probably be siing alone in a corner complaining about the food. >> there is something about alito's temperament, gabe, that has been revealed in his really,

really clumsy efforts to response to very serious well-founded ethics problems. he said about a flight he took, well, the seat on the private plane would have been empty if i hadn't put my rear end in it. i don't think that's a direct cloak. but the lack of professionalism in what is being communicated and what sticks to the other eight. this is nine people. and every thing one of them does attach to the institution. is there tension among them? >> i mean, that's what i'm hearing. i think there are definitely justices who are fed up with the constant headlines from really across the media landscape. there have been investigations by left, right and center media outlets that have shown this is a court whose ethics are compromised. and so i think that specifically with speaking about alito, the fact that he blind sided the supreme court press office with

this prebuttal of one of these propublica stories, there is tension in the building. the supreme court press office did not know that justice alito was going to prebutt a propublica story in "the wall street journal." that's a big deal inside the building. so i think some of that soreness and some of that interoffice politics and touchiness still exists, and it's really going to continue to exist until chief justice roberts takes the reins and says look, we've had enough. we're going to create some binding ethics rules that are for all nine of us, whether you like it or not. and otherwise, if you don't -- if you don't like it, too bad. this is what you're going to have to follow. >> the senator thinks that there is a tipping point on the horizon. do you see it that way? >> yes. already three of the justices have come out and said they support an ethics code, kagan, kavanaugh and amy coney barrett. so i think that if you had some leadership there, with chief

justice roberts, he could make it happen. he is complaining about the low opinion people have of the supreme court. well, this is a crisis of his own making. >> right. >> and there is a way out of it. he can just implement this code. >> gabe, what is there -- what is their explanation to friendlies about why they shouldn't have the same ethics code as every other judge in the country? >> funny you should mention that, because there was a federalist society event today that touched just on this that i happened to watch. and what the friendlies are saying is the justices don't want to adopt a code now or shouldn't adopt a code now because they don't want to be seen as caving to the left's demands for an ethics code. first of all, it's ridiculous that it has a part of unveils. it obviously wouldn't. and all nine justices, would have to follow the ethics code. that's kind of silly. that's what they're saying. they don't support an ethics code because it's pressure.

meanwhile, we're also learning things about on the one hand, we can't have an ethics code, but on the other hand, let's -- and these are the same conservatives, oh let's talk up all these trucks that justice ginsburg took or just breyer took or justice jackson or justice sotomayor's staff hawking her book sales. you can't have it both ways. you can't say there shouldn't be an ethics code, but by the way, why is the media ignoring the scandals on the left? they're not. these are things all out in public. some of them i uncovered myself. i have to tell you it's incredibly disingenuous when you have senators on the judiciary committee grassley, graham, kennedy, cornyn, all of which wanted stronger ethics rules and disclosure rules at the court as recently as last year. it's only in really the last 18 months that they changed their tune. and it doesn't pass muster because any ethics rules that would be passed by the court or

where congress would require an ethics code for the court would have to apply equally to all nine justices, no matter who appointed them. >> it's just amazing. no one else's mother lives in a house that crow built or bought. it's amazing. >> that we know of. >> that we know of. that's true. that's true. it's just spiting their nose to spite their faces at a national level. gabe roth, we're so grateful to you to get to talk to you about these developments. thank you for starting us off. when we come back, try nguyen the twice impeached disgraced ex-president in a case seeking to bar him from the ballot is at the very best premature and the very worst misguided. we'll explain why why a court order in minnesota doesn't mean that trump can't be barred from the ballot there for his role in inciting the january 6th insurrection. we'll also be joined by three college students who say the death threats and physical attacks they have witnessed against jewish students on

campus are being treated as free speech and not the hate crimes and intimidation that they believe they are. we'll have that conversation later in the hour. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ what happened? well, when you opened up the chewy box, you went a bit... ...bonkers. that's one word for it. i guess i blacked out. this is the best squeaky toy ever. probably shouldn't. but we did get you a few more gifts. honey. ooh, there's more. chewy's prices were so great. you don't need to explain yourself, linda. keep on saving. pet's aren't just pets. they're more. well, i hope i got a leaf blower this year.

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because these last 20 years are just the beginning. we have new developments to tell you about in our coverage of this constitutional question, whether or not the 14th amendment bars donald trump from ever running for president again. a group of bipartisan minnesota voters had petitioned to have the court remove the ex-president from that state's republican presidential primary, arguing that he incited an

insurrection on january 6th, and constitutionally could not run for president. yesterday, the minnesota supreme court ruled that while it could not prevent him from being in the state primary, it left that broader constitutional argument inuestion open. it didn't deal with that. "new york times" writes this, quote, the court emphasized the petitioners were free to file the same claims later, challenging trp'inclusion on the general election ballot if he runs theepublican nomination. for now it did not address the constitutional questions surrounding the 14th amendment applying to mr. trump -- about whether the 14th amount applies to president trump. joining us kimberly atkins store. kim, what do you think? >> i think this ruling, this order from the minnesota supreme court just sort of highlights how difficult it is to make this claim. essentially what they said is look, under their state law, who appears on the primary is up to

the major parties involved. they have the right to select totally outside of any challenge to the 14th amendment. now when you get to the general election, we're not there yet. that's too far off. that issue isn't right. so it's a basically not it ruling. it's that court saying hey, this has nothing to do with us there. is nothing we can do right now. but i think that's the problem here. with this i personally believe -- we talked aboutdid disqualify him from office. i do believe under my reading of the constitution that that is a correct interpretation. the problem is the constitution doesn't work that way legally. you usually have laws or rules or supreme court and state court decisions that interpret what the provisions of the constitution mean, and then that way election officials can act in accordance to those rules. so far we don't have them.

the likelihood that we have a clear rules by next year's election are low. and i think you're going see a lot of other courts really wary to jump in here and make such a decisive ruling. >> dave, mentioned judge luttig. here is on the show explaining some of this to me. >> the question to the constitution, and we're talking now about the 14th amendment section 3, as you read, is whether or not the former president engaged in an insurrection or a rebellion against the united states constitution. the question is not whether he engaged in an insurrection or a rebellion against the united states of america or the authority of the united states of america. >> that was judge luttig's

position, and that was important to him to make that distinction in our conversation. his belief is that this does end up, as kim is saying, before the supreme court. he suggested neal katya argue it, he said he would be his wing man. what do you think about that journey for this argument? >> i don't want to give democrats false hope, because i do believe this ends up before the united states supreme court. that same court we just talked about in the last segment. >> the very same one. >> with three justices appointed by donald trump, a 6-3 conservative majority, i cannot imagine they are going to they can this out of the voters' hands. i think the only way to prevent trump from being a president again is at the ballot box. you're not going to able to rely on judges or prosecutors to do it for us. judge luttig is amazing. he is brilliant. there are a couple of issues that don't apply to the president. it's not clear whether section 3 applies to the president as opposed to other government officials. also, trump and the others have

not been charged with insurrection. no one has. and so i think it can go either way. now he should not believe that this supreme court ruling in minnesota gives him like a victory. this is just kicking a can down the road. a political party can nominate whoever they want, an animal if they wanted to. it doesn't mean that's going to be the general election winner. that's going to be the big test. but even if the court rules against trump, the supreme court i think will undo it. >> kicking the can down the road, a very technical legal analysis i wrote on my sheet as you were talking, kim. where do you think these efforts go from here? >> i think we will see other challenges in other states. each one will be different right now. there are arguments under way in colorado on this very issue. it depends on the relevant state laws as they're written, how they go up the chain. i agree this will eventually land before the u.s. supreme court. i'm very afraid that such a ruling that the supreme court could rule something that would

be devastating, like this provision doesn't apply to the president. can you imagine that the presidency would essentially be free to be held by somebody who engaged in an insurrection. i just can't believe that to be true. but i can never guess what the supreme court might do. i believe that the best way to soundly defeat donald trump is to do so electorally, the very democracy that he tried to destroy and let the people speak and not leaf to it the supreme court. >> kimberly atkins stohr, dave aronberg. we always love having you, but we really need your brilliant legal minds for these conversations. i feel like i really miscalculated when i didn't go to law school. it's hard to cover trump without it. i appreciate both of you. we're going to shift gears a little bit around here. we're going turn to the dangerous rise according to fbi director chris wray in threats

and hate speech and jewish students in america. our next guests are going to talk about what's happening on college campuses since hamas' brutal terror attack against israel. when we come back, we'll be joined by three students from three different universities who have witnessed firsthand some of the most horrific threats against their community and want their schools to do more to keep them safe. stay with us. that's next. everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more. plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases. and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas- a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for

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first, major development to tell you about this afternoon from the middle east.

a litore than a month since the hamas terror attack in israel. starting today, israel will go about implementing a p of four-hour pauses in the fighting in areas of northern gaza. the purpose is of course to get humanitarian assistance in and to help get people out. meanwhile, here at home, there is growing pressure on colleges and universities to adequately address a metastasiing culture of anti-mitik harassment and intimidation on college campuses all across the country. mislabelling free s as hate written by a current trio of university students. i just met. they're very impressive. th write, quote, free speech and open debate and huetter row heterodox is the center of life.

mob harassment must not be confused with free spee. universities need to get back to first principles and understand that they have the rules on hand to end intimidation of jewish students. we need to hold professors and students to a higher standard. joining me at the table, college students, the authors of that op-ed in "the new york times" titled whoet what is happening on college campuses is not free speech. jillian lederman, talia dorr. talia, what is happening on your campus? you go to brown? >> guy to cornell. >> and you said it's one of the most uncomfortable for jewish students. tell me what's happening at cornell. >> yeah, absolutely. at first it started the same way as every other school. you had the rallies where people would get up and scream chants like "from the river to the sea." those are chants for the elimination of the state of israel and the elimination of all residents of the state of israel.

so 7 million jews. that's a call for a second holocaust. you had universities excusing that speech coming from professors and students under the guise of free speech. and then unfortunately, we got the jewish community received death threats. they said they were going to go into the jewish living house and bomb the house. they said they would shoot up the kosher dining hall, 104 west. and the situation devolved into a very uncomfortable, unsafe situation for jewish students on campus. >> and why do you think there wasn't a reflexive impulse to protect the jewish students on campus? >> i think a lot of people are incredibly passionate about this topic, and that's great. everyone, regardless of where they lie on the political spectrum or their opinions should be able to voice their opinions. but when those opinions are your family should be killed and resistance is justified, resistance being babies being beheaded, being put in ovens,

women being raped, those shouldn't the justified under the guise of free speech. i should never have to walk around campus listening to my peers scream that i and my family should be killed. >> and that's happening? >> yes. >> at cornell. >> yes. >> you go to brown. tell me what's happening at brown. >> so thankfully at brown, we haven't had the level of death threats that are faced at cornell, but i think that's what's happening at brown is reflective of what is happening at many campuses across the country. like talia, it began with protests on campus that were calling to the annihilation of the jewish state. it also included a statement from over 30 student organizations on campus holding the israeli government and the israeli state entirely responsible for the violence that was perpetrated against them by terrorists. we have had -- >> who signed that? >> that was signed by students for justice in palestinian at brown as well as 30 other student organizations. >> and they held that the israeli government was responsible for the terrorist attack? >> they did.

so beyond that, since that was a couple of days after the terrorist attack occurred, since then we have had students all over campus ripping down posters of kidnapped israeli civilians, purposefully leaving fragments of the posters up so that students could see that they were being ripped down. i personally on campus at a campus party was confronted by two male students that told me i was a supporter of genocide. i know that other students have been confronted for being openly jewish. so what we're seeing right now is this immense culture of intimidation, of harassment that has culminated on other campuses in violence, in death threats, and that i think many students across campuses that haven't had those threats fear will happen to them too. >> are you scared? >> i am. i'm worried at what's happening. i've never experienced anything like this before. i don't think any of us have experienced anything look like this before. we've grown up in a culture, in a community that understands what it's like to be persecuted, that understands what has a history of being killed, of being slaughtered on the basis of our identity. many of us were told throughout

our entire lives that that was our history. none of us expected that it would come back to us today. >> what is your view on the polite of the civilians living in gaza? >> i think it's horrible. i mean, look, no one wants to see suffering on either side. and one of the key things, though, that's happening is students for justice in palestine, these organizations on campus, these professors, they're saying that what happened on october 7th was justified. they're saying that glory to the martyrs. >> who said that? >> these are professors. >> at harvard? >> i go to yale. >> so at yale. you're all so accomplished. i can't keep all the fancy schools. at yale, there are professors saying what? tell me. >> that there are professors who right after october 7th, they tweeted out one being zehr rina gerwal saying what happened on october 7th is okay, to say that the slaughter of innocent

civilians was okay. and now we had an event actually this week in which there were guests brought in. the event was co-hosted by yale yalys for palestine, university departments co-sponsoring an event in which one of the speakers said the israeli state can no longer be the jewish state. a number of the students were left out. they let in students not on the list, but didn't let in a few jewish students. they had to sit outside. one of the students tried to record what was going on. to dismay, they saw their professors, they saw friends in there who were applauding this event, and a professor came up to the student and tried to grab their phone from them. and an administrator had to step in and prevent the professor from doing so. >> it's -- how -- you remember how old you were when you first learned about the holocaust? do you remember? i think it's usually taught really no earlier than third or

fourth grade. but i wonder when you first started talking about the history of the holocaust in your homes. do you remember? >> i'm sure i was very young. i can't remember exactly. but as jillian said, we've been educated in this. we've been taught jewish history growing up. and it's very scary when you see some of the very early signs throughout history of what throughout history has been atrocities. the holocaust is one of the worst culminations of it. >> right. >> there is many centuries of persecution throughout our history. >> i ask because -- it's taught ostensibly so that at a very young age you learn to make sure it never happens again. but there are so many echoes of history in the denying the facts. the fact that the israeli government is having to release photos of the babies that were shot or burned is -- gets at this need that israel uniquely has to defend its right to defend itself. does that come up among people that were friends before october

7th? >> yeah, absolutely. going to gabe's point, i come from a family of immigrants. my mother escaped iran under religious persecution, and i also always grew up hearing these stories of how they weren't able to openly express their jewish identity. my mom used to tell me about how she wasn't able to drink from the same water fountain as other students because they would call her a dirty jew straight to her face. and i never thought that blatant anti-semitism would ever follow me to the country that my parents fled to for refuge. so we're definitely hearing or -- i definitely grew up hearing those cautionary tales. and unfortunately, today on campus, we're seeing slogans like "dirty zionists" being thrown out. and what my mom was being called

in the '80s in iran is very similar to what we're seeing students on college campuses being called in 2023. >> because you're all our future, i'm going to ask you how we fix it. i have to sneak in a break first. don't go anywhere. we used to struggle with greasy messes. now, we just freak, wipe, and we're done! with mr. clean clean freak, conquering messes is that easy. clean freak's mist is three times more powerful, and it works on contact. clean freak, just freak, wipe, done.

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october 7th and after for you? >> i think so. i think october 7th has made a lot of studentress consider a lot of things on campus, reconsider who their friends are. it's made them reconsider what classes they want to take. it's making them reconsider what even is the purpose of a college education. and i think this is something that universities need to ask themselves is what is their mission and purpose. they need to get back to it. they need to realize that this should have been a moment of moral clarity. october 7th was abhorrent, and if it's something that has been so universally condemned, but on college campuses professors and students and universities have such a difficult time condemning what happened on october 7th with hamas, why is that so? >> do you feel that way? do you question whether your college education is valuable? >> yeah. i mean, i still think a college education is very valuable. there is no doubt about it. but when you go to college and you or your parents are paying

an insane amount of money. >> insane. >> a lot, and in return you have teachers who are indoctrinating students. your classes are being disrupted. there are students out across campus, on the center of your campuses every day who are rallying, and you see chalk graffiti'd into the walkways and you have signs written up on posters and flyers, it's -- students wonder how can i study, how can i go to class? can i go to parties? everything is being reconsidered now. >> do you feel safe? >> i personally feel safe, thankfully. >> right now. >> yes. >> but i think a lot of students don't feel safe. and i have a lot of friends who come up to me and say campus feels hostile. i don't feel safe here. i know a number of students who won't leave jewish spaces on campus or others because they know that the moment they step outside there, they're worried that someone is going to come up to them and say something. they're worried that they're going to have to step over the

graffiti. they're worried that they're going to have to come face-to-face with students who are chanting for their people's elimination. >> why do you think that it's inadequate to be critical of israel's elected -- of bibi netanyahu and not stop there? why do you think they have to -- because it sounds like what makes -- what crosses the lines, and what in your view is sort of the indictment of the leadership is that that isn't enough. the israelis the last four weeks have been very critical of their leaders, particularly the failure of intelligence on october 7th. but why do you think it has to go to the point where they're saying things that make clear they would like to see saying things where they're clear they'd like to see israel and jews eliminated? >> i think it's an incredibly difficult question to answer. people feel very passionately about this issue. it's one of the most hotly debated topics in the world.

the conflict dominated discourse forever, including in israel. there were protests in israel for months before all of this happened, you know, about what the direction of country, the domestic issues that were occurring. but what we're seeing right now in israel specifically is an incredible amount of unification. people are entirely unified behind the idea that what happened on october 7th was an atrocity. this is a moment of moral clarity. this is entirely clear, and that's true in israel. what's happening in the united states on college campuses where people are unable to accept that, i don't know how to explain that. there's a history of anti-semitism in this country, in this world has gone back generations. you could attribute it to that. it's difficult to explain. i really don't know what to say about why this is something that people have turned from a legitimate criticism of the government into a call for the

annihilation of the state and an endorsement of the perpetration that was committed by hamas against civilians. i don't know why people have gotten to that point. it's baffling to me, scary to me, and i think we're all trying to grapple with that reality. >> what help you guys? >> what can people do? >> i think the unification of the jewish community in this moment has been unbelievable. i can tell you from my personal experience, the way we got back to campus after the october 7th attacks, the cornell jewish community held a vigil for all lives that were taken and to pray for all of the hostages to return safely. there were 750 people that attended, and it was dubbed the largest cornell jewish gathering ever. to see that and to hear so many people sing the national anthem together and to watch people cry together in solidarity over lost

family and friends is empowering and gives us all strength to continue. >> thank you guys for speaking out. i think it's something we can get wrong, so it's you guys literally at the table. it helps keep us honest. thank you very much for being here. we're grateful to all of you. please stay safe, and stay in touch with us. you're always welcome. >> thanks for having us. >> they're the authors of that piece, the guests on our program. we're grateful to all of them. we have to sneak in another break. we'll be right back. theers . we'll be right back. theers and joints, i'm getting into my groove. ♪(uplifting music)♪ along with significantly clearer skin... skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi 90% clearer skin

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finally for us, a hollywood ending, some good news. actors are now head back to work with the studios and sag aftra reaching a tentative deal. while the details have not yet enreleased, the actors union said in a statement, the committee voted unanimously to approve the tentative deal and end the 118-day strike. actors and riters made history by striking simultaneously for the first time since 1960, with both worried about -- we'll stay on that. another break for us. we'll be right back. break for us we'll be right back. have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of

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