really essential. thank you very much. appreciate it. >> thanks, chris. >> that is "all in" on this thursday night. alex wagner tonight begins right now. >> the politics that survive are a dimension of this that never

seems to stun me. >> it seems right now with the war effort and fractiousinous and the rage of his government even before him it's like there's pressure building up in this chamber. we'll see where that goes. >> thanks to you at home for joining me this evening. if you missed it, this is what it looked like when robert f. kennedy jr. officially announced he would run as a third party candidate for president. >> i need my speech. >> you can't read anything. it's upside down.

it's upside down. >> it's upside down. that is how rfk jr. began his independent bid for the presidency last month, and that's kind of how it's been this whole time with rfk jr. his campaign has been filled with unfortunate stunts like posting videos of him doing push ups shirtless for no reason at all. he's trafficked conspiracy theories more suited today the dark web or a reddit page. >> covid-19 is targeted to attack caucasians and black people. the people -- i don't know what happened on 9/11. i mean i understand what the official explanati is. i understand there's the -- >> so there's no doubt in your mind that al-qaeda is responsible? >> well, i know.

i don't know -- i know there's strange things that happen. >> despite the ethno immunity theories and 9/11 trutherism, there are still people in this country who thinks rfk jr. belongs in the white house. a poll of six key battleground states. it found in a three-way race 24% of registered voters in those swing states picked rfk jr. 33% chose joe biden. 35% chose donald trump. digging a little deeper, that same poll found rfk jr. beating both joe biden and donald trump among voters younger than ha. that was most pronounced among americans age 18 to 29. kennedy at 39%, biden at 30% and donald trump. now, it is not that voters are

all of a sudden true believers that 9/11 was an inside job or that covid is a government bioweapon, but it does appear that voters especially young voters are unhappy with both of the likely nominees here and that a third party candidate could have a real shot at disrupting this election. enough so that the current president of the united states and the former president of the united states could lose a key voting bloc to a shirtless vaccine skeptic. against that backdrop, we got this surprise announcement today. >> i've made one of the toughest decisions of my life and decided that i will not be running for re-election to the united states senate. but what i will be doing is traveling the country and speaking out to see if there's an interest in creating a movement to mobilize the middle. >> west virginia democratic senator joe manchin announced today he is not running for re-election in west virginia, and he hinted at what sure

sounds like a potential third party presidential run. that whole travel the country and talk to voters thing is reminiscent of hillary clinton's listening tour in 2015 before she ran for president. manchin's decision not to run for his senate seat has immediately created problems for democrats looking to keep control of the senate in 2024. that is when the party will be defending seats in red states like ohio and montana. but a third party presidential bid from joe manchin, that complicates things on an entirely different level. if he decides to enter the race, manchin will be joining at least three other independent candidates. but precisely because he's a main stream political actor and a democrat and not doing shirtless push-ups and talking about the immune systems of jewish people, joe manchin could significantly change the landscape of the 2024 race among a wider swath of of voters in a

way that either third party candidates cannot. which is why according to "the washington post" republican senator mitt romney has been pushing manchin to give up on the idea of a presidential run saying i lobby continuously that it would only elect trump. for now all we know is that joe manchin is leaving the senate to see if there is a movement to mobilize the middle. joining me now are my friends co-hosts of show time's "the circus," which after eight great seasons will air its season finale sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. i say that with tear in my eye. i am emotional about it, but i'm going to get to it later but after we get to equally emotional stuff but in a different way. every time we want to interview joe manchin on the circus we'd say can mckinnon get us joe

manchin. i know you talked to joe manchin. you established no labels, the sort of third party independent organization that you are no longer affiliated with. >> haven't been for ten years. let's make that clear. >> abundantly clear. how do you read the decision and announcement on the part of manchin today? >> no surprise to me. we knew he was in jeopardy in west virginia and justice was going to be a much stronger candidate. it was lucky manchin was there when he was to help pass its key legislation. >> although some people would say it's difficult. >> signature legislation because of manchin. he has a history of no labels and familiar with each other. i don't know what if any conversation. >> can i say it again -- >> i don't want to speak for the

organization, and i don't know what's going on and what conversations they had, but he has a history and that could line up in some way, but here's the bottom line for me. he's a man of faith and his word, and he says a couple things. one, if we put this together and cannot win, we're going to pull it down. >> joe manchin? >> joemantion or whoever is on this no labels ticket. >> you said joe leiberman. >> joe leiberman is the chairman of no labels. sorry, two joes. he's the chairman of no labels. like i said i trust anything he says, and he says if we put together this ticket and it cannot clearly win, we're going to pull it down. and the point of of the exercise is to ensure he's not elengthed. they could put popular republicans on the no labels ballot in five key swing states and take votes away from trump.

>> right. but just as it pertains to washington, i think there's a certain segment of the democratic electorate that heard this manchin argument and their hearts dropped, right? it's been a week for democrats. the beginning of the week with the poll numbers, right, and then the high of tuesday night, the democratic platform remains sound and strong. >> voters are on the alert. it's like fall of 2022. >> there's a question about how much joe biden and the democratic platform are won in 2024, whether the distaste for abortion restrictions and many other cultural wedge issues republicans have dreamed up are enough to translate into strong support for joe biden. i've got to read this statement from the white house to you, jen. joe, gale, and the entire manchin family should be proud of the senator's service to west

virginia and to our country. i look forward to our work together. subtext, please don't run against me. >> it is in 2016 all it took was jill stein running as the green party candidate. her margin of victory -- the vote she got in michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania was enough to give those states to donald trump. so now we have rfk jr., jill stein, cornell west, and possibly joe manchin. i mean it is -- joe manchin getting in this race that -- the whole thing explodes. we're in a very different situation. now, having said that, there is zero evidence that there is grass roots support in america for a joe manchin specific candidacy, right? you can't concoct these kind of candidacies in a laboratory in the washington, d.c. group. there needs to be some movement among grass roots they want someone like him.

and my view is there is a centrist that people can vote for in the presidential election. the agenda he's put forward and passed, it is right down the middle of mainstream america and supported by a big majority of american people. you already have that. i just don't see what the theory is with a manchin candidacy. >> yeah, that's the question, right? does he syphon votes from biden or trump? and we know from polling if you believe it biden's problems are with younger voters and voters of color. joe manchin -- that's not joe manchin's bread and butter, so does this hurt trump more than biden? >> listen, i think the same as leiberman has said, i think the same is true at the end of the day for joe manchin. at the end of the day i do not believe he'll want his legacy to help donald trump get re-elected. >> i do wonder -- i mean i do

wonder if there's -- let me talk about the senate before we get into a big existential about the middle and america. i mean, there's the very real, the looming reality that democrats could lose the senate in 2024, jen, right? joe manchin's seat is going to go to a republican. >> we came towards that a while ago. it was likely justice is going to run against him and it was going to be hard for him to defeat somebody like that. then it means democrats have to run the table against everyone else. that means john tester has to hold montana and sherrod brown is going to win in ohio. they are very hard red states democrats have to hold in order to hold onto the senate. >> when you talk about -- i mean not sherrod brown but think about sinema and tester and joe manchin, it speaks to a certain reality of modern american

politics, jen, which is the democratic tent has gotten real big, right? as the republican party has shrunk to a smaller and smaller group of maga acolytes, the democratic tent has expanded bigger and bigger and bigger and it's almost sort of plainly obvious if either side is going to shed centrist at this point it's going to be the democratic party. it just seems to be a natural extension of how big and wieldly the tent has gotten to some degree. >> individual candidates they shape their own races, and you saw that down in kentucky for the bashir race. montanans, they know who he is, and these candidates are very adept at working really hard to communicate within their own state about who they are. >> john tester known for tractor

pulls. that's john tester for you. i want to ask you both because when we talk about american politics it's impossible to talk about -- it's impossible to avoid conversations about things you've done on the surface whether it's john tester giving a ride on his tractor or chasing him down on his houseboat in washington, d.c. these are things that actually happened for people who watch "the circus." you guys had a front row seat, i was there for a bit of it watching american politics. i wonder how we think whether joe manchin can change the race or not, whether you think conventional wisdom applies or not. we talk about what's going to happen. i don't know. >> listen, the think about conventional wisdom was this show would be one and done. we were going to cover the hillary clinton presidential campaign. >> and "the circus" would refer to one presidential race and not all of them. >> and how interesting would the

hillary clinton presidency be? probably not that interesting in a really good way, but three weeks in they said the circus hadn't stopped, keep going and now we're 130 episodes later. part of it was it was surprise after surprise after surprise. if we pitched this as fictional strip, they would have thrown this out. >> i feel like that night in atlanta -- remember january 5, 2021 in atlanta, they won, we had this great conversation. >> it was this feeling we were at a different point in american politics. >> democracy was back and so many people voted and voted in a runoff and it was more than ever before and biden had won and trump was not going to be able to steal the white house from him. and the next morning the bottom fell out. and that is when i felt like there are just -- you can look at very recent history to see 2022 and what motivated people

to turn out then. but to think you can look back 20 or 30 years and think how things going to go based on past experience, i think we're in a different time. >> who really knows anything anymore about where we're headed. >> nobody knows nothing about nothing. >> listen, folks, i'm sorry that we won't have "the circus" to tune into on sunday nights regularly but i'm thrilled this means you'll be in new york city more often. >> stay tuned. >> yes, i will stay tuned. thank you for joining me and congratulations. >> thank you for all you did for "the circus." you are the straw that stirred the circus. >> the cocktail swizzle stick. >> it wouldn't be the success it is. >> john palmieri and marc mckinnon thank you for joining me. do not forget to tune into the

circus. a lot this evening including the in-depth look between the on-again, off-again relationship between donald trump and fox news, which is apparently on again. brian stelter joins me with a preview of the new chronicle about the network of lies. plus special counsel jack smith previews his case against trump and trump's attempt to steal the 2020 election. that's next. s attempt to steal e 2020 election. that's next. everybody wants a healthy work life, and life life. where you can dream big in tech. or medicine. or where you get to reinvent the automobile. all with easy access to this. this, this, and this. this is michigan. this is where big careers shape the future. your future. want to start living your best life? you can in michigan.

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interesting preview of a very important case. jack smith's trial strategy in the federal indictment of donald trump's efforts to undermine the 2020 election. last month trump's lawyers asked the judge in the case, judge tanya chutkan, to dismiss language from the indictment that linked trump to the violence of january 6th. and the special counsel's team responded to that this week calling trump's request a meritless effort to evade the indictment's clear allegations that the defendant is responsible for the events that the capitol on january 6th. the defendant knew that the crowd that he had gathered in washington for the certification was going to be angry. despite this knowledge or perhaps because of it, the defendant told knowing lies about the vice president's role in the congressional certification and directed the crowd to march to the capitol and fight. the special counsel plans to join two narratives here, one

trump lied about election fraud, and two, he incited violence as a last resort to stay in power. this is from politico today. by combining trump's allegations of election fraud with the riot, jack smith is unlocking a mountain of case law enveloped in the january 6th riot cases to tie trump more clearly to the violence than he has been to date. in short smith is casting trump as one of the 1 it is 200 plus riot defendants who have already been charged. joining me now is mary mccord and former acting assistant attorney general for national security. she's also the co-host of the msnbc podcast "prosecuting donald trump." mary, it is great to see you tonight. we've not talked enough about the filings this week from the special counsel's office. this is very significant in that it ties all those jan 6 cases to the looming trial on donald

trump. can you explain to me the significance of uniting those two as they call it mountains of case law? >> yeah, you know, first i have to say it's kind of funny to me how this has come up because a motion to strike parts of an indictment is really kind of a silly motion. it isn't made very often. the indictment isn't even given to the jury. and whether the court strikes it or not, and i don't think the court will for all the reasons jack smith argues, it's kind of meaningless when it comes to trial. what it may show is trump is willing to file a motion to actually prohibit the introduction of the evidence that jack smith has now said in its response thal he'll be introducing. but i think, you know, what we're seeing now is really just a further ebs plngz of what was already in the indictment, right? the indictment showed that multi-prong effort beginning with the lies, the pressure on state legislators, the pressure on the fraudulent electors to meet, the pressure on vice president pence, the culmination

with the riot during which trump himself added fuel to the fire. remember at 2:24 well into the riot, trump tweets out mike pence didn't have the courage to do what needed to be done and the u.s. demands the truth and looking down at the indictment. so already it did tie him to the violence, but here we're seeing exactly what the government says it intends to introduce, right? video evidence, geolocation evidence, audio evidence, things to show that the things they do are relevant meaning they tend to prove evidence more probable than that and relevant. they are important to show the motive and intent of donald trump, things that he did during the riot, things that he said after shows that he intended all along to obstruct that official proceeding, he intended all along for his conduct to resolve in overriding the will of the people and that it provides important context as well for explaining the entire --

remember he charges three different conspiracies. we see it in much greater details of preview of what that trial -- what the evidence will show at trial. >> particularly when you talk about the evidence smith is planning to introduce that maybe trump would like to see blocked, there's a particular part of it that i thought was intriguing, and this is a quote from the government's response to trump's motion. testimony will establish that the defendant was informed of though indifferent to the fact the vice president had to be evacuated from the senate to a secure location. although the defendant knew the senate certification proceedings had been interrupted and suspended, he rejected multiple end treaties to calm the rioters. mary, that sure sounds like someone had testified about what was happening in the west wing or in the white house during the insurrection, what was going on with donald trump. it's kind of a black hole in

terms of information. and my mind immediately went to mark meadows who we know is cooperating or talk to jack smith at least three times and granted immunity in all this. >> certainly this representation shows the government believes they can prove that donald trump was well aware of what was happening not just based on watching the videos, you know, as we heard from cassidy hutchinson that he was watching video or i should just say live television of the riots but also that he was well aware of the evacuation of mike pence, as you say. and so they wouldn't be putting it in there if they didn't have the proof. and i think, you know, your speculation that it's meadows is probably as good as any because certainly we know from cassidy hutchinson that he was in contact with the president, you know, throughout that day. >> i do wonder, mary, the prosecution would also like to know whether trump was going to assert an advice of council

defense. if he does assert that, that intitles jack smith to more evidence including correspondent between trump and his lawyers several of whom had already pleaded guilty down in georgia. >> that's right. and so as judge chutkan ruled when she said i'm going to give you more time before you have to give prior notice, the government wanted that notice in december, she says i'm going to let it be in january. trump himself has already argued -- trump's lawyers have already offered to provide notice in advance by january 15th i believe is the day. she said, but i'm going to require if he provides notice and i'm going to rely on advice of counsel because of that waiver of attorney-client privilege he has to disclose all the communications he intends to rely on, communication with his lawyers he intends to rely onto make that advice of counsel defense as well as any communications that he doesn't

intend to rely on but that are relevant to it. so things that might detract from any advice of counsel defense. and the judge also discusses about how an advice of counsel defense or the government in its briefing has require you disclose all pertinent facts to your lawyer when you're seeking advice and then you rely on in good faith. it remains to be seen whether that's a defense the former president will decide to rely upon. >> a lot remains to be seen. mary mccord, thank you for your time and thoughts tonight. it's great to see you. >> my pleasure. coming up, fox news paid a whopping $787 million settlement to avoid further embarrassing revelations on the eve of its trial with dominion voting systems. but brian stelter's new book has the inside scoop on that settlement, fox's firing of tucker carlson, its pivotal role

in promoting the big lie, and the network's current relationship with trump. brian stelter joins me coming up next. brian stelter joins me coming up next

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this is the moment that has haunted fox news hosts and fox executives for years. >> what is this happening here?

why is arizona blue? did we just call it? did we make a call in arizona? let's see. there's a check mark. did our decision desk make it? arizona, 11 electoral votes. okay, if that's the case then, guys, when we come back we'll fill this in. if you lose arizona, where do you win now? >> it was late into the night on election night in 2020 when fox news called the state of arizona for joe biden. and the problem wasn't that the call was wrong. it was that it was right. that call broke the red mirage trump had been basking in all night and trump was furious. his followers were, too, so they stopped watching. "the new york times" got its hand on audio recordings of fox's ceo suzan scott complaining if we hadn't called

arizona our ratings would have been bigger. after that fox viewers started going to stations that would tell them what they wanted to hear, trump would win. fox wanted its audience back badly so it gave the people what they wanted. as brian stelter reports in his new book "network of lies," fox needed a ratings rebound and some producers explisly said rudy giuliani and sydney powell would provide that. any day with rudy and sydney is guaranteed gold. fox executives discussed segments featuring trump lawyers and their election lies. the lesson fox learned from that arizona call was not to tell its audience things it didn't want to hear and definitely not to say anything that could be seen as bad for donald trump. that lesson went well-beyond

fox's coverage of the 2020 election. after the january 6th attack tucker carlson tried to brush off the gravity of the insurrection and went out of his way to avoid pinning any of the blame for it on trump. carlson's executive producer explained that in text by referencing that arizona decision, we are threading a needle that has to be thread because of the dumb bleeps at fox on election day. one of the other big revelations from stelter's book is at one point fox really did try to ditch trump. two days after january 6th fox's owner rupert murdoch e-mailed an executive fox news was very busy pivoting and that he wanted to make trump a non-person. stelter writes that was not an empty statement. for a while trump's claims about fox opposing him were not a conspiracy theory but an actual

plan. rupert really did try to make trump a non-person. that meant lots of little changes like a no phoner edict, meaning donald trump could no longer just phone into fox shows whenever he wanted. but in a bigger sense that meant turning towards a new conservative, governor ron desantis. needless to say that did not work. trump's legal troubles mean he is still constantly in the news, and his his party's front-runner for the presidency. but most importantly of all fox's audience still loves trump. a murdoch family friend told stelter what the dynamic is now. rupert hates trump and can't believe we're going to end up back with trump. but fox seems resigned to welcoming trump back into the fold. this summer fox news' ceo and its president responded at trump's bedminster golf club reportedly begging trump to participate in fox's republican presidential debate. they just couldn't risk not

having him on their air. brian stelter joins me live to talk about all of this coming up next. joins me live to talk about all of this coming up next

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on the very first page of brian stelter's new book "network of lies" the author launches into the network's role in promoting the big lie. the coup attempt could not have happened without the help of fox news, he writes. all of indictments donald trump faced in 2023 related in one way or another to misguided advice,

misinformation, and mendacity of the fox machine. stelter writes that now almost three years later and after a rupture with trump, fox is the black widow at the center of the web of lies that perverts american politics. joining us now is brian stelter, the epic saga of fox news, donald trump, and the battle for american democracy which goes on sale november 13th. i'm thrilled to have my own copyright here. >> i'll sign it for you. >> please do. first of all, people say a lot of things about how fox is poisoning democracy, but you've got a granular assessment and deep reporting about how literally fox is feeding trump the lies that then in turn lead -- >> and they knew what they were doing. some were published last spring, but i had to write this book

because there were so many other messages in this document dump in wilmington, delaware, that needed to see the light of day. >> just to be clear that is the discovery from dominion. >> that's right. dominion's lawyers were able to get inside and read all the e-mails and read what they were saying at the time. i've never seen any major media company in the united states exposed the way fox was exposed. and we can talk later about the other companies being sued. these cases are still going on. when it comes to fox, it is remarkable to see how they seeded the big lie for trump. reid bartiromo went on the air, told a tale with the help of sidney powell, the trump aligned lawyer, and trump started saying it. it was fox that story that gets us down the path towards january 6th. >> what stuns me is the degree to which donald trump is at once the puppet master and the puppeteer -- sorry, the puppet itself, right? when he seem tuesday have exhausted his utility for fox

news after january 6th, there's this brief moment where they're like, oh, forget that guy, never mind including sean hannity. >> his greatest ally. >> sean hannity who was the shadow chief of staff in the white house, right, you have reporting sean hannity after january 6th, suzanne scott, fox's ceo, tells rupert murdoch he wants to help lead the 75 million away from trump. >> the 75 million refers to trump's voters in 2020 and here's sean hannity saying i'm ready to take them in a more reality based truthful direction. and the boss is saying it to rupert murdoch. the entire network is behind this plan to move away from trump. trump's not wrong. there was a conspiracy against him inside fox. from now that's totally broken down and trump has regained power within the right-wing media. >> can we talk about the

network's current relationship with fox as you see it? he's the prohibitive front-runner in the presidential race and as strong as he has been among the presidential electorate. that's interesting in and of itself, but because there's going to be a january 6, 2025. >> yes, and there is an effort to curry favor with trump. like you mentioned going out to bedminster and fox gave up on that eventually, but there was definitely an attempt to resume the relationship. there was a quote in the book published before. rupert murdoch saying i had trump on the phone in 2020, but i need you to be 100% good, and rupert says you can't have that. blowing off the president of the united states saying you can't have 100%, but the reality is fox is 100% in trump's corner.

if it's not now, it will be by the general election. it's on loughlin who officially takes control next week. >> it's just staggering there's no semblance of contrition on the part of fox in terms of what it has done here. in fact, if anything it's a doubling down on helping spread the misinformation, the lies and really be guilty of mendacity. >> i sometimes feel like the country's suffering memory loss or at least some folks -- some set of the country has forgotten what the years from 2020 were actually like. we've buried some of those experiences. when you look at polls with trump ahead of biden with leadership skills and mental acuity, you just think have we all forgotten about 2017 and 2018. some people have because it's convenient for those fox stars to pretend those scandals never happened. >> you made the point at the outset of our discussion here the lawsuit is not over for fox. we got a huge traunch of

information from the dominion lawsuit, but there would have been more if the case had gone to trial. there's a smartmatic lawsuit, another voting system, that was filed before the dominion system and for an even larger dollar amount, i believe $2.7 billion. are we going to get a sort of x-ray into fox news in the course of the smartmatic lawsuit? >> that case is taking longer but the outcome may be the same. more depositions happening and there will be more discovery and more documents published. maybe there would be a settlement. i would bank on a settlement, but maybe for the $800 million smartmatics told me look the company is a bigger company and suffered bigger damages. fox disagrees and say the damages is way inflated, but that fight is going to happen. the point is here where the courts is where the big lie accountability is happening. the same time those are happening, we're having parallel civic litigation against fox, news max, mike lindell.

they have a lot of other cases still pending but they're in washington. you know why it's taken so long? there's so many january 6th cases still in the washington courts. there are so many rioters still being held accountable. >> the handiwork of fox news. is it going to change under loughlin murdoch or is your expectation is that profit reins supreme? >> profits rein supreme court. they're under more pressure than they were when rupert was on top. >> oh, brian, it's a distressing read but it is an essential read. >> it actually ends on a hopeful note. many of us are in on it now thanks to these e-mails. people know the truth. >> yes, and it actually -- there's great utility in having exhausting reporting on those e-mails in one place. >> some people are still capable of same actually. >> some -- not all of them but some of them.

brian stelter, thank you my friend. the book is network of lie, the epic saga of fox news, donald trump. we're going to have one more story for you tonight, report of president biden's deepening frustration with prime minister netanyahu. national security advisor ben rhodes joins me on that coming up next. sor ben rhodes joins me on that coming up next.

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goli, taste your goals. it's happening. today the white house announced that israel has agreed to pause its military operations inside gaza every day for four hours. the pauses could allow for more humanitarian aid to enter gaza and could also be used in efforts to release the more than 200 hostages currently being held by hamas. as the israeli military moves deeper into gaza city, the health ministry there says israeli air strikes have killed more than 10,000 people and injured more than 25,000. president biden made it clear today he does not support a cease-fire inside gaza but is pushing for a longer humanitarian pause. joining me now is ben rhodes,

former deputy national security advisor under president obama. ben, thank you for being here. and i just wonder what you think of a four-hour pause and its sufficiency. >> i mean, alex, it'll marginally help get more humanitarian assistance in. i mean the trickle that's been getting in is only a fraction of what got into gaza in terms of trucks before the conflict on regular day, and obviously humanitarian is much greater. in talking to people in various governments my understanding is a lot of the proposals called for a four or five-day pause so that you could get a significant, a massive amount of humanitarian assistance in, so you could get wounded people out of egypt, so you could negotiate some additional hostage releases. i think this is, you know, a compromise and it's a very netanyahu move to not really grant the u.s. president what he is recommending but to do something that is just enough to

make somewhat of a difference but is not probably enough to allow for a lot of humanitarian aid to get and those hostage negotiations to take place. >> you talk about the sort of strange dance between netanyahu and biden on all of this, and there are multiple reports this week that biden officials are anonymously expressing frustration with israel. and one wonders why biden officials are still anonymously expressing frustration with israel. can you elaborate on that as someone who has spent time inside the circle? >> yeah, i mean i think there are a couple of different ways you can approach prime minister netanyahu who's, you know, a right-wing fig, who's been willing to buck american presence, particularly democratic american presence in the past. you know, barack obama was more willing, i think, to publicly disagree and to send a message to the world that he might be in a different place than netanyahu on certain issues. we can debate whether that

worked or not, but joe biden's view has been i want to fully embrace prime minister netanyahu in public and voice disagreements in private and that might give me more leverage therefore to affect his behavior and his actions. and we've seen that approach on display with president biden going over to israel and literally hugging prime minister netanyahu. i think what you're hearing on background is the frustration that despite all that full embrace from israel you still have the reluctance from netanyahu to take onboard the full humanitarian concerns in gaza, the scale of the civilian casualties we're seeing, the suffering we're seeing. they need to see a more concerted effort to avoid civilian casualties and help the people of gaza. i don't think think, though, that kind of frustration expressed on background and u.s. media reaches the global audience.

that is probably the concern of the biden white house, and so the question is you're starting to see some public differentiation. you've seen netanyahu saying he wants essentially de facto occupation of gaza on the back of the military operation, and joe bide has said he doesn't think that's a good idea. i think increasingly the u.s. is going to support israel, joe biden is going to support israel. he's made that very clear, but there are these differences that are becoming more apparent by the day. >> could you foresee an actual break, a criticism of israel of this administration at any point? >> i think president biden he's going to have israel's back in the military operation. that's his default position. i do think on these specific issues like humanitarian assistance into gaza, like whether it's worth exploring negotiations to secure the release of hostages, and particularly, alex, i think on the back end of this the u.s. does not want to see a

reoccupation of gaza by israel. they don't want to be a mass displacement of people out of gaza. they'd like to see the palestinian authority take control of gaza, and they'd like to see some effort of the palestinian state. keep in mind this is the government led by b.b. netanyahu does not even support the creation of the palestinian state. i think where the creation is going to be the biggest is what is the ultimate objective of the military operation. the question is what happens to the 2 million people in gaza who can't leave and who governs gazaen the back end. i think that's where the difference is going to eventually become increasingly public. >> ben rhodes, thank you for your insight, my friend. that is our show for tonight. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. when my predecessor was in office six factories closed across the country, tens of thousands of auto jobs were lost nationwide. and on top