running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. finally tonight, watergate reporter and icon bob woodward joined us and i want to tell you you can see our full interview at our youtube playlist at msnbc.com/ari. easy to type in, easy to remember. msnbc.com/ari. we have the full 90-minute conversation in mr. woodward's washington home and library. if you want to see more of what he told us, we showed you some last night. "the reidout" with joy reid starts right now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> you want to run your mouth,

we can be two consenting adults and finish it here. >> that's fine, perfect. >> want to do it now? >> i would love it. >> stand your butt up. >> stand your butt up. >> stop it. >> sit down. sit down. you're a united states senator. sit down. sit down please. >> let's get ready to rumble! three days until a possible shutdown and what were republicans doing today? shoving each other in the hallway, screaming at their colleagues and challenging committee witnesses to fight. plus, tens of thousands of people gathered on the national mall for the march on israel as we're learning new details about a possible deal to free some hostages. but we begin with fulton county district attorney fani willis asked the judge in donald trump's case to put a protective order in case. it comes as videos of confidential interviews between the d.a.'s office and former trump codefendants were linked to the media.

in her filing for the emergency motion, willis says this was intentionally done by someone from the defense and was, quote, clearly intended to intimidate winces in this case. subjecting them to harassment and threats prior to trial. the videos, which were obtained by abc news and "the washington post" but not nbc news were from witnesses jenna ellis, sidney powell, kenneth chesebro, and scott hall, who have all taken plea deals in the case. and those videos include stunning new revelations about donald trump's alleged plot to hang on to power. fani willis speaking today said this was the exact reason she originally filed for a protective order back in september. >> my team and the particular case that those got out, we had already filed to have a protective order where discovery in the case would not get out. so surprising, no. disappointing, yes. in fact, today, from here, i made sure i wasn't late for this

event, but i was with my team making sure an emergency motion got filed so that motion we had already filed gets heard immediately. because i think it's -- i'm not happy that it was released and that you and your colleague got to do your story. >> the judge in the case has scheduled a hearing regarding the emergency protective order for tomorrow afternoon. meanwhile, one of donald trump's other legal cases, the new york civil fraud trial, trump has continued his unhinged rants against letitia james and judge arthur engoron, including reposting a call for them to be placed under citizen's arrest. perhaps this would be considered par for the course for trump if not for the fact we know if trump were to re-enter the white house, he would use a second term to exact revenge against his long list of perceived enemies. joining me is neal katyal, professor of law at georgetown university and msnbc legal analyst. doug jones, former u.s. senator

from alabama, and a distinguished senior fellow with the center for american progress. and mary mccord, former acting assistant attorney general, msnbc legal analyst, and cohost of the msnbc podcast, prosecuting donald trump. let me just go around the table and let each of you comment on the release of this video, the release of these videos and the request for a protective order with the claim this was done to intimidate these witnesses. neal, i'll start with you. >> first of all, i think the evidence is so important because really what these tapes show is how the prosecutors are going to tear down trump's defense piece by piece. they show what trump was told, exactly when he was told it, and exactly how he planned to ignore all of it so he could stay in power. so i think it's pretty devastating for trump. that said, i don't think there's a chance in the world that this was leaked by the prosecution. you have seen fani willis. she's a complete pro. she went to the judge months ago

and said, make sure that this kind of evidence doesn't get out into the wild. the judge never granted that request, and now there's that hearing tomorrow. fani willis had everything to lose by these kinds of tapes coming out, because it really does scare witnesses from coming forward, because look at what's happening to jenna ellis and everyone else on social media today. they're being attacked by the maga crowd and the like. it's scary. whereas the defendants didn't have much to lose. the evidence against them was going terribly. so many of them had already pled guilty, including people in donald trump's inner circle. this is all about if you had to play the odds, much more probable that the defendants who have a lot to lose were the leakers and not the prosecutors who have the winds at their back. >> doug jones, this feels exactly why you can understand why. donald trump is attacking the prosecutors in his other cases, attacking their clerks. and now, i saw it too on social

media, people are going after jenna ellis, going after the people in these tapes. >> they knew that. look, this has been a pattern for a long time now. it is not just in his cases. this is a pattern when he was president. when he could say these things, what i call the dog whistle comments. he can say them, he can have somebody else, in this case, he just put out there, i have got an enemy. i have got someone who is opposing me. and folks are going to take that. that's the sad thing about this. there are people that are out there that are seeing this who think that i have got to do something about this. i have to stop this person from getting my guy. >> it also makes -- it -- >> they have had access to this. they also, you know, for right or wrong, they will take what they have seen, and they may be seeing things that are not going to be admissible in evidence. so it could, you know, it could actually hurt the prosecution. it could actually help the prosecution, depending, but it's

not the way it's supposed to be. evidence is supposed to be presented at trial according to the rules of evidence. but i think also here we have the issue of a jury potentially themselves being afraid. we had that already come out when the names of the grand jurors were actually disclosed because apparently in georgia that's the process. and you know, some of those people were the subject to attacks. we have, i think it will be important to keep the jury anonymous if that's possible under georgia law. if i were fani willis, i would be seeking that. anyone who comes close, whether you're a witness, a juror, you are putting yourself at risk because when donald trump calls out the mob on you, they respond. and he knows this. he knows this for years. he's used it. his victimhood narrative, weaponization of the department of justice, weaponization of the georgia department of justice. this is his narrative. >> now it also puts all of these people in the cross hairs of donald trump now that they're testifying against him, they flipped on him.

a lot of them are the most important witnesses. let's play sidney powell. she gets to one of the key questions of whether or not donald trump knew he lost the election. here's sidney powell. >> were you ever around when someone, anyone, told donald trump that he had lost the election? >> oh, yeah. >> who? >> pat cipollone, eric hirschman, derrick lions all thought he had lost. >> was that in the december 18th meeting? >> yes. >> what was president trump's reaction when this cadre of advisers would say he lost? >> it was like, well, they would say that, and then they would walk out, and he would go, see, this is what i deal with all the time. >> neal, that's an important revelation. >> yeah, absolutely. there's a debate about whether the prosecution in georgia and the prosecution in washington, d.c., jack smith's case, need to

actually show that trump believed he had lost. you know, that's a tough legal debate, one way or the other, that i dent want to bore our viewers with. what this evidence shows is even under the higher standard that the prosecutors need to show that, they can show it, that they have people in the room where it happened, where trump was told, look, you lost. and when you couple the clip you just played with what jenna ellis' clip was yesterday, which was, quote, the boss is not going to leave under any circumstances. we're going to stay in power. you know, that's all just a demonstration that trump wanted to stay in power no matter what. he didn't care whether he, quote, won or lost the election. >> yeah. let's play another sidney powell. she was -- they established she understood she was going to be appointed to be special counsel even though she didn't have security clearance. he would get her one. then the question is what would she do. here is what she would do as special counsel. >> what was president trump's

sense of what you would do as special counsel? >> i guess he assumed and i would have thought that i would have looked at putting into effect a provision of 13848 that would have allowed the machines to be secured in four or five states. >> mary, they were going to take the machines. i mean, that's madness. madness. >> right, and you know, we're starting to hear similar madness when we hear about project 2025. insurrection act on day one, et cetera. so one would think that we would have sort of learned from this experience and that there would not be any lawyers willing to go down the road that sidney powell was willing to go down, and i'm not sure that's the case. the other thing i would note, we were looking at those clips of december 18th, and those statements about the meetings of december 18th and people in his most closest white house counsel telling him he lost. remember, that's one day before

his tweet, be there, be wild. one day before that. so he's been told, it's over. and he calls the mob. >> by the way, to go back just a little bit to what you're saying and what neal was saying. dan scavino ran donald trump's twitter. he's the person jenna ellised she had the conversation about the baas is not leaving. where does that put him? he was one of the people who could have been charged can contempt of congress. he wasn't. the question is did he get a deal? >> it's possible. we don't know. we're not going to know that for a little bit. you go back to, you know, what was said months earlier by folks close to donald trump. you know, his whole thing is going to be, deny he lost, stay in power. we have seen that time and time again. and what's really sad to me about this is that, and it is something that i think instinctively a lot of people and a lot of lawyers have known all along. that donald trump wanted to find a lawyer that would tell him what he wanted. that's the whole thing that

we're seeing here. he's got really good lawyers. i may disagree with them from a political standpoint, but their are excellent lawyers. pat cipollone is a great lawyer. for them to be able to talk to him and tell him, and him say no, i'm going to shove you out and find jenna ellis and sidney powell and rudy giuliani who will not only tell me what i want to hear, they're going to court and tell that judge what i want them to say. >> and seize voting machines. >> they'll do whatever it takes. that's why you see those lawyers that are defendants in this case. >> neal, there was even the part where sidney powell admits that the reason that she was listened to and pat cipollone wasn't is she was telling donald trump, he was saying you see what i have to deal with? they won't tell me what i want to hear. i would like to ask you about the fact fani willis has said the trial in the georgia case may not really happen until 2025. that is a little frightening because it seems that we will

know who the president is by then, and it could be the guy who wants to jail people like fani willis and put them in asylums and that sort of thing. >> very disappointing when she said that today. i always felt this trial, the evidence is all there, turned over to the defense. this trial should be much more ready to go than it is. and these delays i think are unconscionable and wrong. and i think that if this happens and a trial happens and takes place in 2025, if on the off chance donald trump wins, he's going to have a serious constitutional argument that a state prosecutor can't interfere with the nation's business and lock up the president of the united states. that's a serious constitutional argument that well respected constitutional scholars believe is right, regardless of who the president is. and so there's this whole thing about how presidents can't interfere with ongoing criminal cases in the states, and that's

generally right under a doctrine of federalism, but it's also a very viable argument that trump can nullify or at least put the prosecution on hold if he actually is president. >> and he is 77 years old, and if he were to be president again, he would get out when he was 80 if he left at all. that is also unfortunately what this guy, a big if. neal katyal, doug jones, and mary mccord, thank you. speaker johnson is relying on the help of democrats to keep the government open, but all is not well in his clown car caucus. they are so dysfunctional that they are actually physically fighting each other. much more on that next. in a crisis caused by a terrorist massacre.

warning civilians to clear out, while hamas forces them back. allowing in food and water, which hamas steals.

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the house averted a government shutdown with three days to spare. once again, democrats stepped in to provide the votes, passing new republican house speaker mike johnson's short term plan to fund the government 336-95.

the plan will extend funding for half of the government until january 19th and the other half through february 2nd. and i'm going to pretend that makes any sense as a way to fund the $27 trillion government of the whole united states. i would also note johnson is not facing calls to remove him as speaker for relying on democrats for the votes to pass the funding bill. even though doing the same thing cost kevin mccarthy the gavel a mere six weeks ago. go figure. the lingering tensions over that explains some of the meltdowns and hostility was the word of the day on capitol hill. house republican tim burr chet who voted to remove kevin mccarthy as speaker accused mccarthy of deliberately elbowing him in the kidney while he was being interviewed. >> a little different the way people react in tennessee than in california. in tennessee, if you have a problem, you take it to them face-to-face. i guess in southern california where he's from, you take a cheap shot.

>> for his part, kevin mccarthy said he didn't hit him intentionally and in a totally mature way, he added, if i kidney punched him, he would be on the ground. to stop it all off, matt gaetz filed an ethics complaint over mccarthy over the whole thing and things also went off the rails in a house oversight hearing when republican chair james comer called democrat jared moskowitz a smurf over a report that comer did the same thing that he wants to impeach president biden for, giving his brother a loan. but since testosterone is a hell of a drug, the mauncho man antics spilled over to the senate. former mma fighter turned oklahoma republican senator markwayne mullin tried to throw down with the president of the teamsters during a committee hearing. >> you want to run your mouth, we can finish it here. >> okay, that's fine. perfect. >> you want to do it now. >> i would love to. >> you stand your butt up. >> you stand your butt up. >> stop it.

sit down. sit down. you're a united states senator. sit down. sit down, please. >> joining me now is congressman ro khanna of california. i feel constrained to ask you before we start this interview, would you like to fight? >> well, joy, i'm happy to report that i made it to the camera unscathed. i didn't know that we were in the 1800s when people challenge each other to duels. i'm glad bernie sanders stood up to restore some decorum. here's the thing that's not getting covered. you know what we were voting on in there? the republicans literally had amendments to say that they want to zero out the national institute of health, and all cancer research. they want to zero out all student financial aid. they want to zero out all math and science education. their agenda is so extreme, so dangerous, and that's what really we need to focus on.

>> and why is it, do you think, that speaker johnson was able to get away with passing a clean mini funding bill, which i think is ridiculous to fund the government through february in two halves. i think it's silly, but he did get something done that kicks the ca. why do you think he's getting away with it when kevin mccarthy couldn't? >> you're asking the impossible, to provide reasonable explanation for the actions of the republican caucus. you can have expert after expert and i don't think anyone could answer that. it shows a lot of the grievance against mccarthy was personal and didn't have as much to do with the substance, and again, it's the democrats staying unified, being the adults in the room, funding government. and it's the republicans who want to cut basic services. >> you know, the thing is that, is that the core of the fight? because it does seem to me that the arguments of the far right, i guess they're all right, far right, against all of these

funding bills is that they actually don't want to fund any of this. they don't want to fund, as you said, head start and preschool funding and i guess they don't even want to do roads and bridges. what have they communicated so the democratic caucus understands what they do want to pay for? >> they have not. they just want to cut things. part of the challenge, these are such extreme ridiculous proposals. they have amendments, we want to make the nih director $1 salary, department of education that gives money for special needs kids $1 salary. that the democrats lm think it's so ridiculous we don't need to argue against it, but we need to let the american people know what's at stake, particularly in 2024. you have a republican party that wants to cut science, that wants to cut cancer research, that wants to cut education, that wants to make cuts in social security, that wants to make cuts in medicare, and you have a democratic party that is standing up to fund the basic social safety net that this

country has had since the new deal. that's the choice in this election. >> let me play for you matt gaetz who started all this by doing the motion to vacate against kevin mccarthy before. here he is plaining why it's different for mike johnson. >> there's a fundamental difference here between johnson and mccarthy. mccarthy had seven months. johnson only had a few weeks. mike johnson and kevin mccarthy both promised us a path to single subject spending bills. and seven months of kevin mccarthy being speaker, he only delivered one of them. if mike johnson is only able to deliver one of them over seven months, then he would likely face a motion to vacate too. >> please explain what that is. >> what that means is they want to vote on one spending issue at a time. they don't want to link education funding with ukraine funding. look, funding government is complex. it's a trillion dollar budget, trillions of dollar budget. you can't just say we're going to fund everything one piece at

a time for every vote. the concerning thing about matt gaetz's commentary is it makes it seem as if johnson is on the continue. i once said it's a question whether british prime ministers are going to last longer or house republican speakers, but now i'm not joking. >> a head of lettuce usually beats all of them. seven months is actually not a long time. is it -- it must be mad making for you to be in a house of representatives where the timeline for whether a speaker can remain is seven months. speaker pelosi was speaker for many, many, many years. most speakers last for years. matt gaetz has literally said essentially mike johnson has seven months to reduce spending to each bill everything one at a time, which is madness. >> it's madness. and it is reducing spending that is going to hurt working families. as costs have gone up, people say okay, the grocery bills are

high and rents are high. we get it, and we have policies to help put more money in their pockets. we have policies to cut their costs, to provide child care, it provide education, to help with medical debt. republicans are saying all the government assistance you currently have, whether it is education funding, whether it is funding for social security, medicare, we want to take it away. that's the choice, it has been the choice since newt gingrich tried it in the 1990s. it was the same choice and mitt romney and paul ryan tried it. now it's the same choice on steroids. people need to pay attention to their votes. they want to dismantle the united states government. >> congressman ro khanna, who thankfully is a mature adult who would not challenge someone to a duel, and actually wants to do his job. thank you very much. coming up next, a stunning new book delves into trump's disturbing mind set during his last view months of office and his ongoing quest for vengeance, making it clear another trump term would do irreversible

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donald trump's campaign rhetoric has grown increasingly dangerous and dictatorial. what he would unleash on america is a veritable nightmare that he previews daily via social media posts, glossy campaign videos and frenetic campaign speeches. jonathan karl has known trump since the 1990s and has covered

him extensively. in his new book, tired of winning, karl lays out in disturbing detail elements about trump's presidency with interesting new insights into the last few months in office and how that period tells us so much about what we should expect from trump if he returns to the white house. in the book, we learn how disconnected from reality trump is. and how he is constantly looking for affirmation, allegiance, and vengeance. one particular character plays a key role in enabling trump's worst instincts. john mcintee, who carl describes as trump's essential man. in that role, mcintee forged a presidential directive about the withdrawal from afghanistan with zero oversight. mcintee who has no legal expertise, also found justification for vice president pence to reject the 2020 election results, via a half-hour google search, and delivered it to trump even though he knew it was apples to oranges.

he was also tasked with removing all so-called infidels from the trump white house, and would lead the charge in a second trump administration because he's been tasked with a lead role in the trump project 2025. the book also tells us just how far trump is willing to go to win. at one point during the 2022 election, he urged herschel walker to falsely accuse his opponent rphael warnock of pedophilia. most telling is this quote karl got from a high serving individual in the white house. he told karl trump lacks any shred of human decency, humility, or caring. he is morally bankrupt, breathtakingly dishonest, lethally incompetent, and stunningly ignorant of virtually anything related to governing, history, geography, human events, or world affairs. he's a traitor and a malignancy

in our nation, and represents a clear and present danger to our democracy and the rule of law. not subtle at all. joining me is jonathan karl, chief washington correspondent for abc news and co-anchor of this week with george stephanopoulos, the author of tired of winning, donald trump and the end of the grand old party, which is out today. jonathan, good to see you virtually. your book definitely represents the sort of subtitle of our show, which is scaring is caring. this is scary stuff here. i want you to start with kind of where we started, where i started tonight. john mcintee, talk about him a little bit. and the rockettes and the dungeons and dragons group. what is that and who is he? >> mcintee is somebody woo was there at the very beginning of the trump campaign in 2016. in fact, way back in the very first book i wrote, front row at the trump show, i talked about walking into an empty trump campaign headquarters in trump tower because they only had

about a handful of people working there, and the first person i met was actually john mcintee, who very earnest, young, he had just left a job on the desk at fox news. and so he was there at the inception. and he was a former cornerback at the university and connecticut and somebody trump liked for a lot of reasons. partly because he looked the part. good looking young guy, a little taller than most of the other staffers. by the end of the trump presidency, he was actually appointed to the head of presidential personnel, barely 30 years old. he was in charge with the hiring and firing and vetting of all political appointees throughout the executive branch. and he used that position to root out trump appointees, republicans, people working for trump, who were deemed insufficiently loyal. now, john mcintee is working for project 2025 out of the heritage foundation, which is there to set up the next trump administration.

and first and foremost, it's about finding people that will be completely and totally loyal to donald trump. and i think this is a very important thing to understand, that the next trump administration, if there is one, will be more extreme and have fewer guardrails than anything we saw in the first trump administration. >> and what did you learn about what it is they want to do? because there's some of the things you report that are truly disturbing. i mean, donald trump not taking it negatively when it seemed angela merkel, the former chancellor of germany, who really apparently despises him, that he tried to convince himself or convince others that she really liked him, and took as a compliment her comparison of him to hitler. so what is it they want to do? >> that's a remarkable scene where trump to a very senior republican ally of trump is describing how, you know, merkel, she told me, she says

your crowds are so incredible, there's only one person in all of history that's gotten crowds like yours. only one. it's the chancellor of germany, we know exactly who she's talking about. it's about retribution. plain and simple, this is donald trump himself has said this. i think, and i know you have focused on this on your show, but i think there's been far too little focus into what donald trump is saying as a presidential candidate right now in his own words about what he wants to do. it is about retribution. he says point blank, i am your retribution. if you come after me, he says, i'm coming after you. he's talked about using the powers of the presidency, if he has an opportunity to do it again, to go after his enemies. and by the way, he's not just talking about his political enemies. in the democratic party. he's talking about republicans who have been insufficiently

faithful and loyal to him. he's talking about republicans who have dared to stand up against him on things as basic as whether or not the 2020 election was legitimate. >> you write about, and the reason i ask about this is because i would like -- you have covered donald trump a long time. talk about his mental state. you write about the fact that mike pompeo, steve mnuchin, betsy devos, at some point discussed the 25th amendment regarding trump, that mitch mcconnell spearheaded a move to ban him from the inauguration. he threatened to run as a third party candidate and had to be threatened not to do it. the 25th amendment piece stands out to me. as your reporting would suggest, is donald trump fully there mentally? >> i can't really make that judgment, but what i can tell you is people who have raised questions about whether or not he is fully there mentally have been the people closest to him. the people that have raised the alarms about what it would be if

he came back are the people who are closest to him. and yes, in those hours after the january 6th attack, as they watched what he did and what he didn't do, while the united states capitol was under assault by hiown supporters, it was the people that were closest to him that were talking about whether or not they needed to remove him from office because he was mentally unstable. mentally unable to carry out the duties of the president. that is pompeo and mnuchin, they had both denied it. there is sworn testimony acknowledging that those conversations did happen. they didn't go very far. they didn't have time to go far. frankly, as you started to have people resign from the cabinet, there were fewer people who would have voted for it. they were talking about it. it's not just those 25th amendment conversations. i mean, you read that statement from an anonymous staffer. i think it's a very important statement. this was something that was given to me by the person who

wrote it. he wrote it right after all the details came out about the classified documents. this is a very senior official who spent day in and day out with donald trump for over a year in the west wing. i can't get any further details to who it was, but there was a lot of attention about anonymous and we later learned it was myles taylor who worked at the department of homeland security. this is somebody who is more senior and spent a lot more time around donald trump who said those words about him, because he saw first-hand how he had operated and was conveying this to me. didn't want to go public. worried about the retribution we just talked about. this is somebody who has not been out there publicly taking on the president. worried about retribution against the family, but deeply concerned about what a second trump white house would look like. >> jonathan, you know, the subtitle of your book is donald trump and the end of the grand old party. which suggests that there's more to this than donald trump,

whether he's noncorpas mentis or not or wants to use the presidency for personal retribution, but also the people around him and who would enable him. is there a republican party left that would stop him if he attempted to turn our government into something that looks more like putin or viktor orban? is there anyone left in the party willing to try to stop him? >> i spent a fair amount of time in the book talking about republicans who did try to rein him in. and did try to stand up for basic norms of american democracy and the institution. some names are obvious like mitt romney and liz cheney. there are people if you go early in his presidency like senator flake, senator corker. others in the house that are less well known, people within his own administration. even some of the most hard core trump supporters and people like bill barr, who stood up to him at the end when it came to standing up for the integrity of our election system.

so there are republicans who have stood up to him. the issue is every name i mentioned to you is essentially gone from the scene. the members of congress who voted to impeach him, by the next congress, i believe we're going to see one of them left, just one. >> here it is, this is the book, called tired of winning, donald trump and the end of the grand old party. the book is out today. it's scary stuff, but thank you for doing this excellent and very necessary reporting. much appreciated. >> thank you, joy. up next on "the reidout," breaking news out of gaza. we'll be right back with that. i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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. we have breaking news out of gaza tonight. israeli defense forces say they are carrying out a military operation against hamas in a specified area in al shifa hospital. this is the same hospital in gaza city that is facing collapse amid israeli strikes. nbc news correspondent jay gray joins me now from tel aviv with the latest. jay. >> reporter: yeah, and let's get straight to it. we know this is the largest, the most technically advanced hospital in gaza and troops have been surrounding this area for days, saying they believe command and control operations as well as weapons and ammunition depots are inside the hospital. troops moving in within the last 30 or 40 minutes as you said, carrying out a precise and targeted operation in a specific area inside that hospital. the team on the ground, we are told by the idf, includes

medics, arabic speakers and this team has undergone specific training for this mission. so they had prepared for this mission for days, apparently, before deciding to move in. they are also saying the hospital staff was informed just before soldiers moved on the facility. and joy, we should also point out they're calling on all hamas terrorists and i'm quoting the idf here, inside the hospital to surrender. so this comes after what's been several days of fighting both outside the hospital, air strikes around the dense neighborhood surrounding the hospital, hamas has said repeatedly that there are no operatives or operations inside the hospital complex. the u.s. today came out and said that their intelligence indicates that hamas is working not only out of this hospital but other hospitals in the region as well. >> jay, let me ask you a question. how many civilians, do we have a

sense of how many civilians, patients and doctors, are in the hospital? our understanding is they're building mass graves to try to put bodies in because they can neither leave, they don't want to leave their patients, how many civilians are in that hospital? >> yeah, we think thousands. we know that thousands more have left over the last couple days, and these corridors opened up for several hours by the idf to move people to the north. a lot of people have evacuated the hospital, but there still are apparently thousands inside. >> jay gray, thank you very much. earlier tonight, after thousands gathered for the march for israel in washington, i spoke with two public thinkers about the israeli/palestinian debate. peter binard, author of the binart notebook on substack, and michael a. cohen, columnist and senior fellow at the center for strategic stuies at tufts university. thank you for being here. michael, i want to start with

you first. i found your piece very interesting and i want to read a little bit of it today. you talk about in your view, those who are calling for a cease-fire being incorrect in what they're looking for. you write in 1864, as general william tukumsa led siege to atlanta, he penned a letter to the residents of the city that he would soon burn to the grund. you cannot qualify war in harsher terms than i will. war is cruelty, and you cannot refine it. those ring particularly true today. i'm going to leave it there, come back and read another part later. explain to me why you believe that the calls for a cease-fire are incorrect. >> israel, like any other country in the world, cannot have a government government responsible for the atrocities of october 7th. even today there are still hamas, hamas is firing rockets

into israel. two people were injured in tel aviv. a cease-fire is a one-sided thing. hamas has no inclination to stop attacking israel, to stop attacking jews. they made very clear they will continue to do so. so i think what is imperative is for hamas to be either eradicated or at least severely weakened. i do think that beyond the need to protect israel and to and the terrorist threat from hamas, weakening hamas or eradicating hamas creates a political opening. a political opening because hamas has for 30 years worked overtime to undermine the peace process, to undermine a hope for a two state solution. with hamas out of the picture, you do create political opening. that's where frankly i would like to see pressure put on israel to move on with a two-state solution in negotiations with a with the palestinian authority. as long as hamas remains in

gaza, there's no hope for peace. >> you said considering how respected joe biden is in israel right now, he's precisely the leader who can reassure israelis that there are sacrifices worth making for a peace. but those sacrifices would happen if rivas hamas remains in power. that is what michael akerman has said. peter beinart, i understand you have a different view. what do you make of that assessment? >> according to save the children, where children have been killed in gaza in this past month than in armed conflict in the entire world in the entire of the last year. so if you're going to say that it's justifiable to kill this many children it seems to me you have to have really good answers about what the strategy is about this invasion. i keep hearing a lot of things, hamas has to be eradicated, weekend, destroyed. we know from america's experience after 9/11, it's

easy to get in and oppose governments. it's difficult to get out and we stand a government that can stand on its own. if israel tries to stay in gaza it will space and insurgency as far as the eye can see. that insurgency will be fueled by people whose families israel has killed. we know hamas recruits from bereaved families. if it tries to stand with the palestinian authority, the palestinian authority could not control gaza in 2007. it is far weaker. israel will have to guard mahmoud abbas's office. if you go to justify the killing of all these children, you need very good answers. i haven't heard them. >> michael a. cohen? >> i think it's important to be clear what's happening in gaza. what's happening of our is obviously a tragedy. we are seeing people needlessly dying, including children and primarily civilians. but that's a decision enlarge that the hamas has made, to use people as human shields, to prevent israel from attacking them.

we're seeing right now, despite happening around the al-shifa hospital, why is that happening? because hamas uses hospitals and military command centers. i think we have to be clear that you can blame israel but hamas deserves responsibility for the carnage unleashed in gaza. in general i think that the problem i have with peter's argument is that we know that after 9/11 we should attack should not act a terrorist responsible. right now there is a clear and present threat from hamas in gaza. we saw that threat. the idea that insurgency could be worse than what we saw october 7th seems a bit hard to imagine. i think right now the focus needs to be on the urgent threat coming from hamas, the threat that we saw october 7th, and that we still see you today. we are still seeing rockets fired in israel. we are still listening to hamas leaders talk about how this changes nothing from their perspective. they still intend to use her mask as a launching pad for

attacks in israel. >> let me let peter, in because we don't have a ton of time. >> in southern lebanon to depose the plo when they were launching rockets in the early 19 80s, they couldn't imagine anything worse. it got hezbollah. in the united states when into depose hamas who's some on who's saying, we got ices. and that you have a political strategy to deal with the thunder of mental underlying grievances of the palestinian people, which are a lack of freedom, you are not creating deterrence in a long run. you are entering a clog meyer that is going to leave israel more wounded and more unsafe than it is today. >> you dahlonega creek deterrence if you don't respond to the death of 1200 of you civilians. >> a different way of responding. and yes, you can respond in a targeted military way, the way we should've done after 9/11, not by the posing a government and entering a quagmire. >> i wish we had more time. i really appreciate this conversation because i think this is the bottom line, is a

question of what does one do? there are a lot of people who disagree with what we did after 9/11 and joe biden didn't council that israel should not do and repeat the exact same thing. so we can debate whether or not that is what israel is doing. but i appreciate this conversation. peter beinart, michael a. cohen, thank you both very much. coming up next, we will be right back. right back called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. #1-prescribed ingrezza is the only td treatment for adults that's always one pill, once daily. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to its ingredients.

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check out the reidout blog. ja'han jones explains how the maga and minions are using -- their any breaks down why this all proclaimed qanon shaman, another insurrectionist running for congress, is a moral and legal failure for the u.s.. that is tonight reidout. all in with chris hayes starts, right now. >> tonight on all in. >> reports of, tonight, do i hit somebody? >> chaos and