>> as she was obsessed with peace. violence was always wrong in the mind. so, she would say now, even though our communities are wiped out, all my friends lost, i lost my friends, where they lost their parents, she would say, we don't need more dead babies. we need to stop the violence now. >> and we all listened to the message of peace that vivian silver had for the region and the world. >> we have common interests, that is in all of our interest to promote peace, and to break the decade long paradigm that says only war will bring peace. we know that is not true. >> eugene silver, may her memory be a lesson. that is all in on this thursday night. house back to tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> thank you, my friend. thanks to you at home for joining me this evening. it is easy to become desensitized to the litany of outrageous things trump has said over the years, but there's a reason historians are concerned about mr. trump's latest stump speech. >> we pledge to you that we will

root out the communists, marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. the threat from outside forces is far less sinister and grave than the threat from within. >> calling your political opponents vermin and the threat from within, we've heard that before. adolph hitler referred today to jews as vermin worthy of eradication. donald trump is following some appalling and notorious footsteps of the most violent dangerous men of the 20th century or at least some of them. and trump didn't end there. here he was in the very same stump speech talking about the home invasion and the brutal attack on speaker nancy pelosi's husband, an attack that was carried out by a rightwing

extremist. >> nancy pelosi was a crazed lunatic. she's a lunatic. she is a crazed lunatic. what the hell was going on with her husband? let's not ask. let's not ask. i withdraw that statement. by the way, she's got a wall around her house. obviously in that case it didn't work very well. >> nancy pelosi is a crazed lunatic. that kind of glorification of violence, that call to abandon empathy, to stop seeing our shared humanity, that is no longer just donald trump. that rhetoric and that behavior has invaded trump's entire party. here was trump's closest rival for the republican nomination, governor ron desantis in a radio interview today mocking former governor nikki haley for

expressing grief over the killing of george floyd in 2020. >> you know, i remember when the george floyd riots were happening. i called out the national guard. i said i'm standing with police. she was tweeting that it needed to be personal and painful for every single person. and i'm thinking to myself why does that need to be personal or painful for you or me? we had nothing to do with it. it just shows an example of her adopting this left-wing mind set and accepting the narrative. we need leaders who are going to fight the narrative. >> now, the narrative to be clear here according to a jury's verdict was that george floyd was brutally murdered as on lookers begged the officers who pressed his knee into his neck for nearly 9 minutes, as those on lookers begged for them to stop. according to ron desantis any pain, any perceived pain of the public murder of an innocent american means you're somehow

capitulating to the left-wing and its agenda. this is trump's effect on the republican party, a party appears to be turning into something brutal and cruel, where violence isn't just an accepted outcome in american life but a necessary outcome. nowhere was that more on display than in the halls of congress today. for months now republican senator mark wayne mullen has been in a feud with the head of the teamsters union because the union president referred to him as a greedy ceo. today the head of that union testified before the senate, labor and health committee where the senator revisited their dispute to settle it anytime, anyplace cowboy. >> this is a time, this is a place you want to run your mouth, we can be two consenting

adults. you want to do it now? >> i'd love to do it now. >> stand your butt up now. >> you are a united states senator. sit down. >> you are a united states senator, sit down. the wheels are coming off here. a chain reaction that started with donald trump now has republicans not just ready to brawl with democrats but brawl with each other. just a few hours the republican leadership under speaker mike johnson could not agree on a way to fund the government. so they had to do what they always have to do in this congress, which is to rely on democrats. with 209 democratic votes, and 127 republican votes, the house managed to pass a resolution to fund the government for a few more months after weeks of infighting among republicans. if you are republican right now, this is all completely embarrassing. the party ousted its last speaker for relying on democratic votes to get

something done, then held the government hostage while trying to figure out who could lead the republican conference, finally electioning a hard liner who once again had to rely on democratic votes to get the thing done. if that all wasn't just shameful enough for the gop, the last republican house speaker, kevin mccarthy, is reportedly lashing out at the members who cost him that job in the first place. and when i say lashing out, i mean that literally. today an npr reporter was interviewing republican congressman tim birchett when he claimed former speaker of the house kevin mccarthy intentionally elbowed him in the kidney. here's the audio of that incident captured by npr. >> why'd you elbow me in the back, kevin? hey, kevin, you got any guts? jerk. >> has he done that before?

>> no. >> huh, that's something new. >> the reporter said it right there. what kind of chicken move is that? you're pathetic, man. >> kevin mccarthy later denied that he hit congressman birchett with yet another display of embarrassing machismo. >> show me a reporter who saw that. >> he said he was in pain, that you hit him so hard in the kidneys. >> joining me now is congressional correspondent who was the reporter talking to the congressman birchett at the time of that incident. did you see congressman mccarthy run up on him as you were interviewing him in. >> i was focusing on birchett. he was coming from a long

hallway a distance from where republicans were meeting. i was fully focussed on him. he maybe said one sentence to me before he lunged towards me. we were like a foot apart and it was such a shock. i remember birchett yelling out to mccarthy initially saying, hey, kevin, didn't mean to elbow. and then he switched and said why'd you elbow me in the back, kevin? and i started to look at that point and that's mccarthy, his detail, and they had walked by. initially i thought it was a jock, maybe a joking shove of some kind, a bump. but from what it looked like from my perspective mccarthy had shoved into birchett and appeared to be an elbow as birchett claimed. >> you think about this incident you captured both in audio and on social media and we're now talking about it with a quote

from former congressman republican adam kinzinger who spoke about once i was standing in the aisle as mccarthy passed with his security men and some of of his boy,s mccarthy veered towards me, hit me with his shoulder and kept going. is body checking fellow republicans who run afoul of them a thing? how much is this something he does? have you heard of this before? >> not before today. it has been a concern for me in terms of how high-tensions have been running especially within the house republican conference and especially since mccarthy was ousted. i have been worried about physical altercations with members. i wrote a piece last week about members and republican fighting. i was worried it would build up to a moment. it was very surreal it happened today play out in front of my eyes today.

in terms of mccarthy's history, no, i was not familiar with it. i heard about kinzinger's experience today from his book. it was shocking to hear that case today. >> can you talk about the tenor -- well, the temperature inside the republican conference. wer seeing the explosions of anger in the senate and the house. the front runr for the republican nomination makes anger part of his brand. what is the net effect of all that in terms of the legislative body? how does it feel in congress right now? >> yeah, i think we're seeing it play out. this is the perfect storm and building all year. house speaker mike johnson spoke to it earlier today before i shared what i'd seen, and he was talking about this pressure cooker in the house. it's something we've been wondering about especially october and mccarthy canceled two weeks of recess and the

work, the tension, the struggles we saw the republican conference go through in october, it exacerbated a lot of the sore feelings there earlier in the year they played out. now republicans were worried about death threats from fellow republican constituents. and so it is very worrisome. in some ways it is not surprising to see this play out now. but in others, it's very shocking. >> claudia, may i suggest elbow pads, shoulder pads, whatever you need to keep doing your job with this essential reporting. thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> join me now is jemele buoy, "the new york times" opinion columnist. his latest piece out today titled trump wants us to know he'll stop at nothing in 2025. jumel, thank you for joining me. i can think of no better person to break down what exactly has happened today the grand ole

party, if you will, under the tutelage of donald trump. first of all, what did you make of the fireworks, i guess is the euphemistic term? >> on one hand you can attribute the aggression as the real anger and disdain that appears to be in the republican conference as the energy released by trump. on the other hand, i remember the 2010, 2012 cycle of the tea party and everything. i remember the extent to which those members were really hyperbolic and aggressive. i think the difference between now and then, there are no really moderating courses within the republican conference to the extent there were some prior. there's nothing really to bring the temperature down, and you have a new crop of members who really don't seem to be

interested in governing whatsoever. and so all of that together just means you have the kind of situation where you're going to have to firework said that we saw today. >> i do wonder, you know, i totally agree with you there's mow moderating influence, but it seems like it's a step beyond that when you talk about 2010 and of course joe wilson saying you lied today president obama. outbursts have been the gop thing. we seem to be at a moment where anger and violence and outbursts are incentivized. i'll go back to the piece you wrote today in "the times." it is neither exaggeration nor hyperbole to say it looks -- trump's plan should he be re-elected looks an awful lot like a set of plans meant to give the president the power and unchecked authority of a strong man. i feel like having a sort of idol who's a strong man or wants to be an even more unchecked

strong man almost gives license and encourages his foot soldiers to be miniature or happy versions of strong men. >> one thing you see throughout the republican party is just a rejection of the idea of persuasion, a rejection they would do any kind of attempt to speak to someone who disagrees with you on on an equal basis and bring him to your side. within the republican party we're witnessing it right now we're it's not just an objection what even amongst republicans, no attempt to do anything to reach out to people, to persuade people. but then broadly, the republican party nationally, there's trump and the notion of trying to seize power is in some stense a rejection of the idea that you should do any of it work of democratic life. there are state legislators who create these intense partisan

gerrymanders to nullify voters. we're just going to dominate over everyone around us, and this really does seem to be the dominating ethos of so much of the republican party. and it's hard to know what to do about it other than just sort of observe it and hope that it burns itself out. >> well, yeah. i mean, i will also say to the point of there's no working cross the aisle, there's no democracy worth preserving. the reason the republicans aren't shutting down the government is because democrats stood up and saved their butts. i mean like the irony here as trump is vilifying the fascist left is the fascist left is actually saving your butts in congress and asking nothing other than a functioning government. i got to ask you jamelle, this

is senator mark wayne mullen, again senator mark wayne mullen on news max today sort of making a historical reference on why it's fine to come to blows in the u.s. senate. let us take a listen. >> could you guys go bare knuckle if you wanted to? >> we looked into the rules. you got to remember president andrew jackson challenged nine guys to a dual and won nine times. at a white house dinner jackson jumped up and literally ran across the table and knocked the guy out. and so at the end of the day there is precedence for it if that's what someone wants to do. >> just a word on precedence, if presidents are taking their cues from andrew jackson we have a problem. talk about two chapters of american history are probably not where you want to be drawing your marching orders from,

jamelle. >> i don't know i want to compare myself or look on preston brooks caning of adam summoner. through glorification, this willingness to speak violently, act violently it speaks to not just maturity but a rejection of the basic premise of democratic life, lowercase "d" democratic life, which is we're going to talk to each other and attempt to persuade each other and engage each other as equal. in the same way that brook' caning of summoner was a statement i don't feel you're an equal and i don't feel an obligation to. you can't run a legislative

society, you cannot run a society that way. >> it's not just congress, you cannot run a society like that. thank you for your wisdom and thoughts this evening. i appreciate it. >> thank you. we have a lot to get to this evening to including president biden who is drawing a serious contrast with his predecessor, donald trump, on maybe the most important, the most urgent issue of our lifetimes. plus, the leaked tape of jenna ellis and sidney powell telling georgia prosecutors what they knew about the conspiracy case and what trump knew. that's next.

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ooh! too much hustle is a thing. look at that. i was with my team when that emergency motion got filed. i'm not happy that my colleague got to do the story. >> that story fulton county d.a. is referring on effectively confession from some of trump's codefendants who accepted plea deals in georgia's election interference case. and from what we have seen and what we have read, there are both colorful details and substantive revelations. and the colorful category, the fact that sidney powell's fest time meeting codefendant scott hall happened to be at an alligator hunt. as for substantive president trump asked kenneth chesebro

four or five questions about the mat of arizona, and chesebro described for trump his memo on the fake elector scheme. there was also a coup plot revealed to jenna ellis at a white house christmas party. this is what she told reporters about a conversation she had with top trump aide dan scavino. >> he said to me in a kind of excited tone, well, we don't care and we're not going to leave. and i said what do you mean. and he said the boss, meaning president trump, the boss is not going to leave under any circumstances, we're just going to stay in power. and i said to him it doesn't quite work that way you realize, and he said we don't care. >> joining us now is mimi roca, a former u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york. mimi, thanks for being here. let's first pick up where jenna ellis left off there. this idea dan scavino told her we're just going to stay in power. seems like a searing indictment.

can it be used in court? is it hearsay? how does this qualify as a piece of evidence? >> the fact you know to ask if it's hearsay. so, first of all i would say, yes, i mean this is damaging testimony if it comes in. why? because it shows that this was a plan. it wasn't that he really believed he had won the election but rather this was the plan. i think her testimony in one of the questions was why did he listen to you, why not some other lawyers? well, because we were telling him what he want today hear. >> that was sidney powell that said that. >> yes. and that would negate advice of -- >> of counsel. >> exactly. and sticking your head in the sand, which you can't do, all of that. so substantively this is very bad for trump 100%, but the fact

it's out is very bad i think for the prosecution. >> can you talk more about that. obviously fani willis is not happy about this. she wants a protective order. she filed an emergency protective order on top of the protective order she already asked the judge for. a decision is going to be made in two weeks about that. why is this bad for her beyond people knowing what the goods are that she has, or is there not a beyond? >> well, it's mostly that because it's not just people. now, the defense -- the people that she is prosecuting have a complete preview of some of the most as we're discussing damaging testimony. now, maybe they already knew this. they know it through discovery, the defendants who it was given to, but now everybody knows it. and the jury pool knows it, and so it's a better argument for -- to the defense for a tainted jury pool. it prejudices, arguably, a jury. all the arguments why in every

court that trump is facing prosecution people are arguing that he should be limited into what he can say publicly, because this is the same thing, right? you have public statements going out that are prejudicial to him. this is the kind of thing as a prosecutor you see this gets out, and your heart starts having palpitations. it's not good to have this out there i don't think. >> does the release of it by one of the defendants who had access to it during the discovery process, does it count as witness intimidation putting it out there like that, suggesting to other witnesses don't talk? >> i mean her argument and her motion is it's clearly intended to intimidate witnesses. i don't know that i agree clearly, but it certainly can have that effect, right? because if you're someone who's going to cooperate, you're saying well, wait a minute i

thought what i told you is kfrmgs at least until and unless there's a trial, which there may or may not be. we say that to potential cooperating witnesses all the time as prosecutors. we say what you tell us we'll keep as confidential. yes, we'll have to turn it over to the defense, at some point. it mayo may not go to trial so you may not -- there's a lot of steps to it becoming so public. ando the impact of that one on someone's willingness to come forward and tell you everything. and two, in this particular circumstance of the reality of the world that we're in, we know that people who support trump and follow trump and believe this is not a prosecution with integrity will come after people who are saying things because they're saying something bad against trump, not necessarily because of, you know, anything else. >> i do have to ask you just because it seems like the first evidence, though, leaked and though problematic for fani willis, the first evidence that

we may have connecting trump to the fake electors plot is maybe given by kenneth chesebro who in his proffer agreement in the videotape says he has a conversation with the president about the matter of arizona and then describes to trump his memo on the fake elector scheme. how meaningful is that setting aside the obvious concerns about witness intimidation and what it does to the prosecution? >> again, i think substantively all of this is good evidence for the prosecution. it doesn't mean that there isn't a defense, doesn't mean there isn't evidence that trump and others could put on, but it is good evidence for the prosecution, which, again, is actually why i think the prosecution doesn't want it to come out ahead of time. i to think it's surprising that there wasn't a protective order in place. that was one of my first thoughts when i heard that this had come out. i understand that she had asked for one, the judge hadn't ruled on it, but this is a case where you would -- >> obviously want one.

>> follow up up on it, yeah. >> d.a. willis said about the possible timing of the trial here, i think this case would be on appeal for years, but i believe in that case there will be a trial. it will take many months. i don't expect we'll conclude under the winter or the early part of 2025. what is your reaction to that? >> i come from a school of shorter is better. while i recognize there are many defendants here, i think one as just a trial strategy matter streamline. and also, you know, i'm not saying that they're right, but it will give -- it will give momentum to the argument that this is interfering with an election if it goes through that time period. >> although, donald trump would very much like to have it extended to 2025 on the hopes he is re-elected and can do something about it. we're not quite sure. mimi rocah, thank you for helping me understand just how bad and also strong some of this

is. we have lots more to get to tonight. tens of thousands of people gathered in d.c. today to march for israel, but what that specifically means depends on who you talk to. first joe biden did something today that donald trump would never haveidaried to do. what he did is coming up next. what he did is coming up next.

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you probably don't remember the day after thanksgiving, 2018. you were probably still stuff would turkey or eating pie for breakfast or sleeping in late, or maybe you were in line at a black friday sale. i mean who knows what you were doing, and that was actually sort of the point. because back in the day on 2018 on the day after thanksgiving, the trump administration released the fourth national climate assessment. and most people, most americans probably have no recollection of this. the timing was intentional. the report, which comes out roughly every five years, has been mandated by congress since 1990. and it serves to inform key policy decisions from intrastate admission rules to how many cooling shelters a city is going to need to survive a heat wave. now, to some degree this is not surprising. the trump administration famously ignored scientific consensus on man made climate change and rolled back key environmental protections and shredded international

agreements that have thus far been earth's best shot at staving off catastrophic destruction as a result of a warming atmosphere. so, yes, the trump administration released a really important report on climate when everyone was in a haze at best buy. and today thinks may be hotter than normal as we barrel towards the hottest year on record, but some things are different. this afternoon president biden rolled out a major climate investment. he announced an estimated $6 billion from the inflation investment act and the bipartisan infrastructure bill that will be used to bolster the electric grid amid the growing threat of climate change. that threat was explicitly outlined in the government's fifth national climate assessment, which was also released today and not conveniently on the day after thanksgiving. hundreds of scientists across 14 federal agencies found that most aspects of american life from our safety to our health to our

economy are all invariably threatened in a hotter climate. these scientists also critically connected the dots between climate change and extreme weather events like last summer's extreme heat waves and wildfires and hurricanes. speaking today, biden called climate change the ultimate threat to humanity, and he gave a nod to the previous occupant of the white house. >> the solutions are within reach. solutions are within reach. it takes time for the investments we're making to be fully materialized, but we just have to keep at it. that's very different from the previous administration that tried to bury this report. and didn't want to make sure this report came to light. >> not surprising from a guy who consistently called climate change a mythical hoax. coming up the war in gaza ranges on as hospitals turn into

cemeteries, as massive crowds gathered in d.c. to express solidarity with israel. that is next. express solidarity with israel that is next

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for israel, and it was a unity event in expression of solidarity with israel, bu it was very apparent today that supporting israel in this moment means very different things to different people. uniting the crowd were calls to release the over 200 israeli hostages captured by hamas and messages denouncing the rise in anti-semitism, but other issues divided the crowd, particularly an issue of a cease-fire. when one of the speaker's cnn's van jones said he prayed for an end and the crowd began to drown out his speech with chants of no cease-fire. joining me now is editor at large for jewish currance magazine. thank you for being with me tonight. tell me what your impressions of this march are beyond the sort of we can all agree on these two

things. what is the sort of -- what is your take away from this sort of show of solidarity with moments of fracture? >> i'll be honest, i would have loved today be at this march. i mean, it's one of the biggest marches in jewish history. there's so much pain and suffering and agony in the jewish world today. so many of us know other people who were captured or killed. the collective sense of solidarity, i would have loved to be there. obviously anti-semitism is rising. it's a very real problem. those hostages, i can't even imagine what their families are going through. this was also a rally in support of israel's invasion of gaza, which has killed now more than 4,000 children. that's more children that died in armed conflict in the entire world in all of the last year. and if you're going to justify killing all those children, you better have really good answers

about what israel's strategy is to win this war, and i have not heard them. it reminds me so much of america in 2002, 2003 we're going to win, we're going to destroy them. okay, what are you going to do after you depose gauzans. if israel stays there there'll be an insurgency as far as the eye can see. the palestinian government could not hold gaza in 2007. they're far weaker. i can't justify this level of killing, i'm not sure i could at all but certainly not without good answers to hard questions. >> yeah, "the washington post" writes that at the rally today there were people brandishing plenty of signs, you know, just in support of israel and support of the hostages but others brandished signs declaring make gaza flat again. now, you are not the only person that thinks entering this without a strategy could be a

quagmire and further radicalization. the u.n. special warned last week it's likely to radicalize more people in the world against israel. >> what hamas did on october 7th was evil. but we also know as you were suggesting that hamas recruits its fighters from the families of people israel has killed. so you go in there, you've now killed more than 10,000 people, you're going to stay in gaza. you're going to have hamas or hamas 2.0 or whatever, is going to have a lot more people to fight you. ultimately, you need a political answer to the lack of palestinian freedom. if you don't have a strategy for that, even if you could eradicate hamas, you would be fighting the next hamas. >> yeah, i do have to ask you when you talk about the death

toll here, obviously there was a staggering death toll from that initial october 7th attack. the numbers that we have today put the death toll at 11,240 killed in gaza since the start of the war. the reports from the hospital wheres, the al-shifa hospital, which is one of the largest hospitals in gaza. the director of that hospital effectively calls the hospital a cemetery, they have to bury the dead in the hospital. they can't exit the hospital because they're saying israeli idf planes attack anybody exiting the hospital. there is no food. medical teams are surviving on biscuits and dates. there are 100 dead bodies in the hospital. we are learning at this hour that the idf is carrying out on operation inside the al-shifa hospital. i just wonder as we hear these varying accounts sort of what you think the net effect is on, you know, israelis and jewish people across the diaspora who

listen to this and want some kind of retribution but also understand that this kind of carnage may not be serving their purposes. >> yeah, look, i know what people will say. people will say they're human shields. hamas is embedding itself in civilian areas. that is probably true. you know what? that's the way all guerilla movements fight. it doesn't mean the answer is to kill vast number of civilians in order to get a small number of the enemy because you're creating more of the enemy. and the only way you can ultimately defeat a guerilla movement is deal with the political issue underneath it. palestinians have been fighting israel before hamas and will tragically continue to fight lodge after hamas unless have their fleet up. and life will never truly be good unless palestinians also have safety and dignity.

two people intertwined i don't think benjamin netanyahu and his government appreciate that. >> to netanyahu, the point of netanyahu i think it's less than 4% of jewish israelis report that they trust netanyahu has a reliable source of information regarding the war against hamas. does that surprise you? >> not really. this the is other problem with allowing this government to lead this high stakes an effort with no answers. it's not only an extremist government but an incompetent government. it's the same government that basically was completely asleep at the wheel on october 7th because they had put so many of their soldiers on the west bank to protect radical soldiers rather than protect the people of israel. do we really think these guysvise a good plan? i want the united states to be asking them really tough questions and not give them a blank check to enter into a quagmire which is going to be horrifying for palestinians, ultimately not provide israelis the safety they deserve and bad

for america. >> peter, it's a very difficult time and wrenching topic. thank you very much for taking some time out of your night to talk with me. editor at large for jewish currance magazine, thanks again. we have one more story tonight about whether or not defendant donald trump gets to say whatever he wants whenever he wants. that's next. ever he wants whener he wants that's next.

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goli, taste your goals. we have deranged jack smith. have you ever heard of him? he's a lovely man. the prosecutor in the case. his wife and family despice me much more than he does, and i think he's about a 10. they're about a 15 on a scale of 10. >> that was donald trump this weekend at a campaign rally making disparaging remarks about special counsel jack smith and his family while he still can. next week the d.c. court of appeals is set to hear arguments about a gag order that judge tanya chutkan impolesed on trump in his federal election

interference case. the narrow gag order prohibits trump and his attorneys from making public statements targeting special counsel smith or his staff, the court staff, and any witnesses. but the appeals court put that ruling on pause until it decides whether it can gag trump as it might a normal criminal defendant. so for now trump is allowed to say whatever he wants. and smith's team in a new filing today cited trump's campaign event over the weekend as just one of the many reasons to stop him. joining me now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, and co-host of the sisters in law podcast. joyce, it is always good to see you. thank you for being here. my first question is just is there -- is there a question in your mind as to whether this gag order is going to hold up in the appeals court? >> no, there's absolutely no question. this is a very limited restraining order that preserves trump's writes to engage in

political speech. the court of appeals may even go ahead and put it back in place during oral argument. that doesn't happen very often a ruling from the bench during oral argument. that doesn't happen very often a ruling from the bench during oral argument. this may be a stand out case during trump's ongoing conduct. >> the fact trump literally ungagged if you will on the stump targeting the special counsel's family sort of gives rise to the initial criticism why the appeals court even put a stay on the gag order as it did while they sort of deliberated this. >> yeah, i think the administrative stay is par for the course in a setting like this. you sort of preserve the status quo while you're taking just a few days to decide issues. but trump's behavior, you know, alex, we all know it is out of bounds, it is dangerous. just the cavalier comments that he made about paul pelosi, the

really just trivial comments directed at jack smith endangering his family, this is the sort of conduct that the courts need to put a stop to immediately. >> we know, joyce, as much as it sort of seems like fairly obvious what's going to happen here, steven miller, his group america first legal, has filed an amicus brief related to this gag order saying it -- it is unconstitutional, unconstitutional on the grounds of separation of powers. i think 18 red state attorneys general have also filed a brief saying that the gag order should be lift. is there anything to the argument that this is a violation of separation of powers? >> no, there really isn't. i mean, this is political theater. this is red stated attorneys generals continuing their allegiance to trump as opposed to engaging in any sort of realistic analysis.

it's not a separation of powers issue. the law is very clear that a judge is entitled to put reasonable restrictions designed to preserve the integrity of a trial in place. >> when you talk about the integrity of a trial, there's a legal battle playing out over whether or not this federal trial should be televised. smith is pretty strong that he does not want cameras in the courtroom, saying that trump desires to create a carnival atmosphere. trump saying he wants everybody to see all of the horrible things and all of the horrible charges. do you have an opinion on this? and do you have a sense of how judge chutkan might rule on this? >> yeah, i think that those are very different questions because the rules in federal court are clear. cameras are prohibited. media group said have come in and they've argued a couple of different things. one is that the rule is unconstitutional, that it violates first amendment rights so judge chutkan should set it aside. the other is a technical argument about the nature of

broadcast, which says that this can be done in a way that wouldn't violate the rule. i think it's unlikely that judge chutkan would go ahead and alter the long-standing practice in federal court, but that's very unfortunate because this is a case that should be put on television so that everyone can see it as it happens. the real problem is that donald trump's response in this case, this sort of last minute response that he files saying that jack smith is engaging in a show trial that he wants to conduct under cover of darkness is really nothing other than theater because that's simply not the case. >> he excels at theater. joyce vance, thank you as always for your time tonight. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. i think we've been -- i think people are somewhat getting tired. >> listen, you have little things from time to time.

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