rejected those, but they are coming around to realize now that they're going to have to accept some concessions on the u.s./mexico border in order to get these priorities of theirs, namely ukraine. the president is asking for $60 billion which is intended to bring ukraine really through the next u.s. presidential election. that's a huge haul of cash, and they're really trying to get it out the door before the end of the year. there really isn't going to be an opportunity to get more money to ukraine before then. what they want to do is package it all together with israel and taiwan and border security, as i mentioned. >> yeah, and all four of those things, major flash points right now. yet, congress hasn't sent a dime. always great to talk to you. senior congressional reporter for punch bowl news, andrew, thank you for joining us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. mr. presidents, after today, would you still refer to president xi as a dictator, a term you used earlier this year?

>> look, he is. i mean, he is a guy who runs a country that is a communist country that's based on a form of government totally different than ours. >> president biden's last answer there might have been a bit awkward but true after what was otherwise a productive meeting yesterday with chinese president xi jinping. we'll have more from their first face-to-face talks in a year. >> i will say, mika. >> yeah? >> i know i don't interrupt, but i will in this case. that clip is burying the lead. >> what do we got? oh, well yeah. >> we had a meeting that i thought went extraordinarily well. fortunately, we have the wise man here who can tell us and the wise woman who can tell us what they think. >> oh, good. >> i, for one, loved hearing what was said there, and i love

the fact that they understand that the united states and china, whether either side likes it or not, is -- we're going to be, in effect, running a large part of the planet over the next half century, as far as the economy, the environment, you name it. yesterday, it sure was good seeing the two leaders of those countries get together and say what they said. again, we have wise people here. >> joe, hold on, i just think it's great he could say the truth right there in front of him and continue also to try to work together. it's a two things can be true thing. doesn't need to placate him. >> i agree with you, mika. what else do we have today? the latest out of gaza following the israeli raid of a hospital which hits on top of a command center for hamas. the idf releasing this video of

weapons it says were inside the facility. also ahead, the honeymoon period for mike johnson might be over, as some hard line conservatives are now putting pressure on the new speaker. they've given him a lot of space, though, compared to kevin mccarthy. along with joe, willie, and me, we have former aide to the george w. bush state departments, elise jordan. former president emeritus of foreign relations, richard haass. and retired four star navy admiral james stavridis. chief international analyst for nbc news. let's get to our top story. willie, take it away. >> let's begin with the high stakes meeting between president biden, chinese leader xi jinping, held in woodside, california, 35 miles south of san francisco, marking their first meeting in just over a year. xi was quoted through a translator as telling president biden, it is not an option for either country to turn its back

on the other. also said, there is room enough to co-exist and both be successful. one country's success is an opportunity for the other. president biden said he secured agreements on three major issues, including an effort to reduce the direct shipment of fentanyl in all forms from china to the united states. president biden, importantly, also announced the two militaries will resume direct contact and communication, and that both nations will coordinate on risk and safety issues surrounding artificial intelligence. the president spoke afterward about the relationship with china. >> determine what is useful and what's not, what is dangerous and what is acceptable. the united states will continue to compete vigorously with the prc, but we'll manage that competition responsibly so it doesn't veer into conflict or accidental conflict. and where it's possible, where our interests coincide, we're going to work together, like we

did on fentanyl. that's what the world expects of us. the rest of the world expects, not just people in china and the united states. the rest of the world expects that of us, and that's what the united states is going to be doing. >> richard, let's go big picture first, just the optics of the two men taking that walk through the garden, and then the deliverables on the other hand, which is the military communications, which is the admiral can speak to in a most, as well. how important was this meeting? how important was even the statement from president xi, that the world is wide enough, in effect, for both of us to succeed? >> look, all things being equal, it's a good day. it's not sexy. it's day-to-day diplomacy. the word you used is exactly the right word, willie, management. things are not solved. the so-called deliverables or agreements, we'll see whether or not they're implemented. a lot of life is implementation, whether anything changes with fentanyl. if and when there is a crisis, the military to military channels, whether there's any

change, with climate. the fact they're meeting high level, they get a better sense of each other. you come away with a slightly better feel for things. i think that's healthy. is it a turning point? is it transformational? no. all things being equal, is this sort of thing positive? is this constructive? the answer is absolutely. >> admiral, considering how bad relations have gotten. >> yeah. >> considering the fact we could not get chinese military leaders on the phone. considering everything that was going on, and i will say, the fear of a regional war in the mideast, the fear of a regional war in europe, the fear of china using that chaos and a stretched united states military to go into taiwan, all great fears. this quote, i mean, this is -- you and i have spoken about this before, and xi sort of has echo what had a lot of foreign policy people have said when he said, "turning our backs on each other is not an option."

i realize i'm a nerd, but that is a sexy video right there, baby. i want the leaders of the two most powerful nations who have been at odds, whose military have not been in communication over the last year or so, doing this. >> yeah. >> it's a starting point, and i understand that's all it is, but at least we're at the starting point of rebuilding this relationship. >> yeah, 100%. you know, so much of life, joe, is compared to what. and compared to a year ago, when visits of cabinet officials were being canceled, when spy balloons were circling the united states, when ships and planes were bumping in the night, this is a much, much better day. by the way, i wouldn't understate particularly one of the deliverables, this military to military contact. >> critical. >> what really ought to worry us is the idea of a miscalculation,

either around taiwan or in the south china sea, which china claims in its entirety as a territorial body of water. so you worry not so much about tony blinken and lloyd austin and joe biden and their counterparts. you worry about goose and maverick flying around in those jets up there. i'll close with this. i think too much is being made of the dictator comment. >> right. >> you know, sort of saying he is a dictator is like saying that jim stavridis is a short guy. i am. it's a reality. >> i would say jim stavridis is a learned, learned, respected voice, a giant of a man in foreign policy. but go ahead. >> maybe i have picked up a few things along the road in life. >> maybe. >> but i am a short guy. so at the end of it all, i think i'm with richard haass, it's a good day's work.

i think it is probably quite positive, if not a turning point. final thought, i think there's a little bit of chemistry going on here, and that's okay. >> yeah. >> think back to reagan and gorbachev, and how did that turn out? eventually, we stopped the cold war. >> right. >> could we look back at this moment? i don't know. let's hope so. >> elise, three words stuck out to me yesterday. when xi called joe biden "my old friend." you look at what's happening in israel, and biden may have to move another one of his old friends off the stage, work with israelis. you know, i've said this for quite some time, i'm so sick and tired of people talking about, oh, we want an outsider to run the most important country in the world and the most

complicated governmental bure bureaucracy. we want rock. we want trump. we want people who have no idea. no, no. if i'm getting brain surgery, i don't want a guy who is good in action movies. i want a guy who is the best brain surgeon and who has done it a thousand times. this is where we see, as far as foreign policy goes, there's so many flash points that are happening right now. thank god joe biden is in there. i'm just saying that, thank god he's in there. we saw when trump left, nato was about to be blown apart. it is stronger now than it's ever been. 600 new miles along the russian border. it's just extraordinary, the transformation. all that is, that's working relationships, using u.s. power, leveraging it for good. again, experience. who would have ever thought it actually leads to good things? >> xi jinping, in particular, 70

years old, he and biden have had a few spins at the wheel and have experience. there's some shared experience there. i actually love that he just was honest and said, "he's a dictator." i think it is good for him politically in america. the american people know he is a dictator. china is a politically contentious issue. there are few foreign policy issues that actually matter to the electorate, but on both sides, there are americans who are infuriated by what they see as china taking advantage of us through trade. i think that, at the same time, biden can have the relationship. we need to be talking. he needs to present to the american public, yes, he is still going to be tough and is doing this through a reality-based lens. >> richard, what about taiwan? they said they discussed taiwan. to what extent, we don't know. talked about israel and ukraine.

what's your stance of where things stand between the two men? >> 40, 50 years, this has been the central issue of the u.s. and china relationship. particularly from china's point of view, this is a flash point. this is brilliant diplomacy by the united states and china for half a century. we've learned to agree to disagree. we finessed it, haven't solved it. we talk in code, but the bottom line is, we have different views of where things should go. most important, though, we keep saying, we do not want you, china, to resolve this coercively. to use a middle eastern phrase, final status has to be determined by the mainland. we agree to disagree in the meantime. xi jinping talks about it as essential unification for what he calls the rejuvenation of china. it is central to his legacy. we can't change china dreams here. what we can do is influence their behavior and continue to signal to them, any use of force, any coercion against taiwan would end the u.s. and

chinese relationship as we know it. it'd end trade. anything with the chinese officials the last 40 years, it's like everybody talks in shorthand. you go through it. it has to be said, but the bottom line, nothing was changed. that's okay. we're not looking for change. >> admiral, i mean, it's been this way since 1979, since mika served caviar and spilled it on deng xiaoping's pants, i'll say. >> that's not appropriate. >> who among us hasn't? >> yeah. >> then tried to wipe it off afterwards. >> come on, joe. >> perhaps one of the great -- >> this is -- >> this was confirmed by jimmy carter, who said, you know mika spilled caviar on deng xiaoping's crotch? people who don't know why she was in that position as a 10-year-old girl, they opened relations at mika's house, you

know? we had the dixie youth baseball, you know, banquet over at a church. >> you also spilled, what was it, barbecue sauce? >> barbecue sauce. >> it -- >> back to 1979, there's been a creative fiction. one china policy. china, you say what you say. we say what we say. we shake hands. we do this delicate dance. basically, we keep the ball in the middle of the table. >> yeah. >> it appears that -- and, by the way, world peace may depend on that ball staying in the middle of that table and this creative fiction, but it looks like we got a little more stabilization on that front yesterday. >> yeah, i think that's right. i'll add to richard's excellent points a moment ago. put yourself in xi jinping's

shoes in beijing, as he watches this debacle unfold in ukraine. if you're xi jinping, you're kind of asking yourself three questions. one is, i wonder if my generals are as bad as those russian generals appear to be? that's a good question. you don't know. your generals haven't been in combat forever. >> i was going to say, none of those generals have ever had a shot fired at them, and that's one of the important things that we've seen, is it not, out of the ukraine war? xi saw russian generals getting gunned down and has seen the horrific -- i know everybody talks about, oh, russia is doing well. no. this has been devastating for russia. it set their military back 30 years. it's exposed them as extraordinarily weak. you're right, xi carried that

message in yesterday, as well. >> absolutely. let's face it, again, it's an enormous uncertainty for xi, having watched this russian military break on ukraine. secondly, if you're xi, you're thinking, i wonder if the taiwanese are going to fight like hell the way the russians have. answer, he doesn't know. he has never been to taiwan. i have. i met with madame tsai. i know the military well, and i think they'll fight. that's uncertainty for xi. thirdly, your point, sanctions. the sanctions on russia are not perfect, they're a slow-moving train, but we looks at mirror and says, "my economy is too big to sanction, right?" we'll see. >> yeah. >> that's a ton of uncertainty for a man who doesn't like uncertainty. >> five years ago, that economy was doing much better than it's doing right now.

there's been a series of missteps by the leaders there that have actually put it in a position where, again, not negotiating from the position of strength they would have five years ago. i want to hold up the official paper of record for "morning joe," "the new york post." on the first page, graphic illustration of war crimes. war crimes committed, of course, by hamas. war crimes that won't be discussed on college campuses today. war crimes that won't be discussed by haters of israel today. war crimes that won't be discussed by haters of jews today, by anti-semites, about how hamas knew when they launched the attacks against the israelis, the terrorist attacks, they knew where they were going to hide. that was underneath hospitals, inside of hospitals, all around. any soft spot where civilians are at their most vulnerable, hamas, the terror group, is

going to hide there. a war crime, a war crime you won't hear about on college campuses today, but a war crime we will discuss when we come back in 60 seconds. in the u.s. we see millions of cyber threats each year. that rate is increasing as more and more businesses move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network.

[speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. welcome back to "morning joe." israel is solidifing its hold on gaza. claims of hamas building a command center under the hospital building. a spokesperson says troops found rifles, ammunition, and other military equipment. nbc news has not independently confirmed what's shown in the video. the white house is depending israel's raid. officials say u.s. intelligence supports the claim that hamas is hiding beneath the building. here's what president biden said

last night. >> here's the situation. you have a circumstance where the first war crimes being committed by hamas by having their headquarters, their military hidden under a hospital. that's a fact. that's what happened. israel didn't go in with a large number of troops, did not raid, did not rush everything down. they've gone in and gone in with their soldiers carrying weapons, their guns. they were told -- let me be precise. we discussed the need for them to be incredibly careful. >> richard, the photograph that joe showed on the cover of "the new york post," the confirmation from the nsc a couple days ago, it's really just evidence of what everyone knows. this is what hamas does. they hide between civilians. it's what we talked about yesterday. they hide behind civilians instead of standing in front of them to protect them. this is the case that israel has been making. there have been civilian

casualties in gaza, and they're trying to avoid them. that's a terrible thing, and nobody wants to see infants taken off life support machines. but this is what hamas does. it hides under hospitals and schools, and it hinds behind civilians to create the scenes we're seeing. >> by the way, willie, those infants that, you know, they're talking about needing fuel, guess who has fuel? >> hamas has plenty of fuel. >> plenty of fuel. >> this is exactly what israel is up against. every single military operation, the israelis need to plan. you have to deal with this dilemma. how do you get hamas without causing all sorts of collateral damage with civilian casualties? the fact that what we're seeing, by the way, is more israeli forces on the ground rather than using large bombs from the air, this is a good thing. >> by the way, it was so critical, was it not, last week when they -- maybe two weeks ago -- they actually cut gaza in half, thereby putting themselves in a position where they didn't have to have the aerial

bombardments as much. >> correct. >> again, going street by street, house by house, room by room, searching for hamas and their weapons. most importantly, the hostages. >> yes, it is more dangerous for the israeli soldiers, let's be honest, but they are willing to take that risk. they paid a cost, you know, the number of israeli soldiers wounded and killed has gone up. this is, in some ways, to deal with international pressure, that they do this as granularly, as discreetly as they can. there are still big issues. the mega, strategic issues israel hasn't addressed, hand off to what, two-state solution, and we can talk about that, but this is educational. going back to what joe said, this ought to be part of the conversation. this underscores what israel is up against, the nature of hamas. this is not a bug. this is the feature. this is what hamas does and how they do it. it's what makes the military operation against them so difficult. every single minute you are faced with dilemmas about how to

fight a war against this type of unconventional -- >> against terrorists. again, hamas did this -- not hamas -- isis did this in mosul. amazingly, the entire international community condemned isis. you have hamas, who started this war with war crimes, unspeakable war crimes. they commit war crimes every single day. they hide behind civilians. and the international community condemns israel? this is surreal. >> well, you have the leadership of hamas hanging out at the ritz-carlton or some fine hotel in doha, and they're hanging out and calling the shots. they've planned this. they knew what was going to happen when they unleashed this horrific terrorist attack. what was going to happen to the civilians in gaza? they were going to have to seek medical care after israel rained hell on them.

how then would the israelis be able to clear this hospital? can you just talk about the sheer impossibility of literally routing hamas from the largest hospital? >> yeah. let's start with the center of gravity militarily here. it's like that old movie, "the graduate," when he gets advice in one word in the movie. it's plastics. in this scenario, the one word military advice is tunnels. tunnels. 300 miles of these tunnels. israel cannot avoid shutting that down. otherwise, they cannot -- >> admiral, if you were in charge. >> yeah. >> let's just say this. if you're in charge there, you don't leave gaza -- >> no. >> -- until the 300-mile tunnel network is destroyed. >> 100%. >> filled in, finished. >> correct. >> all the terrorists driven

aboveground and arrested or killed. >> correct. and it's a mega task, but the right answer is boots on the ground. you know, we talk all the time about precision-guided missiles and our very precise drones. the most precise thing on a battlefield is an infantryman with a rifle. so what you're seeing israel do, elise, to your question, is use that very precision-guided weapon, the infantry, at cost, as richard reminds us, but moving them in. that's the only way you can minimize these casualties. i'll conclude where i started. the israelis are not going to leave that battlefield until that tunnel system is gone, because if they don't, they can't turn to the mothers of israel and say, "your children are safe in their nurseries tonight." they're going to take out that tunnel system, and they should. >> while all this is going on in

gaza, going on in israel, back at home, at least one person was arrested during a pro-palestinian protest outside the democratic national committee headquarters. it was a wild scene last night. u.s. capitol police were there. they clashed with demonstrators. at least six officers suffered minor injuries. protest organizers say at least 100 participates were injured after being pepper sprayed and pushed by police. the group was calling for a cease-fire in the war, as scores of democratic representatives and candidates were inside the building for a campaign reception. protesters say they wanted to block the entrances and exits to force the politicians to listen to them. capitol police posted on social media, claiming about 150 people were, quote, illegally and violently protesting. organizers dispute that claim, telling "the washington post" they had just locked arms when police responded with, quote, brute force. >> willie -- >> leadership was in there. hakeem jeffries and others in there. entrances and exits blocked. >> d.c. police were prepared for

this because those same people had the same violent protests when assad killed 500,000 arabs during the civil war, and also when tens of thousands of palestinians were killed by assad, the same protests, of course, taking place outside the dnc -- no, wait. i'm getting word from our dnc correspondent, that didn't happen, willie! >> no. >> that didn't happen. how fascinating, that the only time we see these protests are after jews get slaughtered and jews are trying to defend themselves against the worst attack since the holocaust. but they have the -- they have the nerve to act self-righteous when they sat in silence as 500,000 arabs were slaughtered, including tens of thousands of palestinians by assad. you see, it's okay for them, they're fine when palestinians

are slaughtered by arab leaders. it's just when jews try to defend themselves, suddenly, it's a war crime. suddenly, they're getting self-righteous. it's kind of sickening. >> yeah, we're seeing it at the dnc, on college campuses, and let's just talk practically, admiral, about the idea of a cease-fire. hillary clinton wrote that piece two days ago that said that'd be a nightmare, obviously, for israel. by the way, there was a brief cease-fire on october 6th. we saw what happened october 7th. the obvious point is a cease-fire, hamas is not going to cease-firing. >> indeed. militarily, enormous difference, and secretary clinton is exactly right. a cease-fire that blankets everything, that's like the put down your pencils moment on the s.a.t. it all stops. that's not what's going to happen here. however, israel needs to use a whole series of pauses, that is the correct phrase, to get humanitarian aid in, to get trucks in, to evacuate these

hospitals, and, oh, by the way, that ought to be the job of hamas, to get the civilians out of these hospitals. >> right. >> and get them down israeli safe routes, get them out. all that is manageable in a series of humanitarian pauses. but the idea of a cease-fire militarily is ludicrous at this point. >> of course, hamas wouldn't do that. >> of course. >> hamas likes seeing palestinians killed. in fact, they set up their entire defense to hide behind palestinian civilians. what willie said yesterday was so clarifying. that u.s. troops do everything they can to stand between the person with the gun and the civilian. hamas does everything they can to put the civilian in between themselves and the person coming to get them, to get retribution for the terror attack that they had before. richard, even the term

cease-fire, if you're an israeli and you hear the term cease-fire, it's laughable. because cease-fire is defined so loosely when you're talking about hamas. a cease-fire means hamas rains rockets down on israel, and they can only hope they can shoot them out of the sky before their women and children and grandparents are killed. >> the term is nonsensical when you're up against a terrorist organization whose charter and whose behavior is to kill jews and destroy the jewish state. hamas has tactical pauses at most. the answer is, israel needs to agree to the pauses, in some ways to push back against the cease-fire. since a cease-fire makes no strategic sense for israel given the threat they face, the reason for israel to embrace the pauses is you need something to beat back these calls for a cease-fire. the pauses make sense on a humanitarian side. if you marry periodic pauses

with very careful use of military force, i think israel and the united states can control at least enough, some of the narrative in the u.n. and elsewhere. i think that's the goal. again, then the pressure is on israel to complement their military strategy here with a larger strategy. that's the conversation for another day. what does israel do to deal with palestinians who are not hamas? >> right. >> that's what's really been missing from this israeli government. that, for president biden, is going to be the challenge. you and i talked about it before, people like me think he ought to go to the knesset and get a strategy the israelis can get behind. we have to continue to push back against a cease-fire, so i think this is the way to go. i thought last night, the president was very strong on that. >> alex in my ear said, the key words there, a conversation for another day. richard haass and retired four star admiral, james stavridis,

both giants, i tell you, giants in u.s. foreign policy. thank you so much for being with us. mika? >> great group. coming up, congress averts a government shutdown for now. we'll have the latest from capitol hill as another spending fight now looms in the new year. amid new dissatisfaction with republican leadership from party hard liners in the house. plus, joe manchin said last week he will not seek re-election to the senate, but he's not ruling out a run for the white house. we'll show you what the west virginia democrat said yesterday in an interview with nbc news. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. when you have chronic kidney disease... ...there are places you'd like to be. like here.

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the house must pass them each year. it just is always exciting on capitol hill, joe. >> well, i mean -- [ laughter ] -- depends what you mean by exciting. i liked the headline of the "wall street journal" editorial, "meet the same speaker the same as the old speaker." kevin mccarthy would have been torched politically to pass a clean cr to depended on massive democratic support. of course, you know, guy is throwing elbows around now, so i'm not so sure that there's ever a route back for speaker there. yeah, i mean, this whole idea, you know, people going around going, oh, we have a more conservative speaker. no, you don't. it's the same thing. it's the same problems. it just was all gesturing. let's bring in the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan

lemire. and special correspondent for "vanity fair" and host of the fast politics podcast, molly jong-fast. jonathan, before we get, we have a new hampshire poll which is fascinating, but before we get to that, i want to get your impression on this meeting yesterday with xi. really, finally, moved the ball back to the center of the table. >> yeah, and it was about turning the calendar back to november 2022. when the two men bet in bali, before the spy balloon, before relations deteriorated. the white house feels they've done that. yes, there's a lot of discussion last night and this morning about the president in his q&a afterwards saying president xi jinping was a dictator. by definition, he is. >> by the way, xi took that as a compliment. do you know what xi said? "damn right, i am." >> smiled and moved on. i will say, when you're watching the video, the reaction of secretary of state blinken when biden says that, he visually

flinches. might be some cleanup, but officials feel good about the fentanyl agreement, feel good, importantly, about military to military communication being reestablished. some agreements on climate change, as well. more than anything, the fact that two leaders are there. they do have a personal rapport. they knew each other years ago when they were both the equivalent of vice president in their respective governments. taiwan looms as a flash point, but this was important. for this white house, they feel like we can reset things. we can calm things. we can devote our attention to other matters, like israel and ukraine. >> very good day for biden. good day for the united states. a good day for, again, a more stable, stable world order because of this relationship. speaking of joe biden, couple days ago, we commented here that joe biden just may be the generic democrat that always fairs better than joe biden the actual candidate. when the election comes, it happens time and again, joe biden is always underestimated,

joe biden wins. that's what he's been doing since 2020. it's what he has been doing since south carolina. so i had a reporter call me a couple days ago, doing a story. he said, "help me out here. if you had to pick a number that's most important, like if you could know any number on election day, what would it be? would it be joe biden's approval ratings?" i laugh and go, "not even close. not even close." people sort of, like, eh, joe biden, no, no. i said, "it's irrelevant. it's been irrelevant. it was irrelevant before the so-called red wave, on and on and on." yesterday, this reporter saer c me back and said, "did you see the new hampshire poll?" i said, "no." he said, "you should look at it. it proves your point." t.j., t.j. >> joe. >> there it is. >> there you go. i'm not going to tell you how he

is doing in the actual poll, but joe biden's approval rating in new hampshire, a very important state, obviously. one that both candidates, whoever they need to win, only 37%. now, match them up, though, same people that gave him a 37% approval rating, match him up with the election. okay, t.j., this is where you go. joe biden beating donald trump by five points. molly, even if you throw everybody and the kitchen sink in, joe biden is still ahead. the point being, okay, people are just liking to bitch and moan sometimes when they're talking to pollsters. when it's joe biden, donald trump, and the swing states that matter the most, they're just going to break for biden. i'm not whistling past the graveyard. they just are. >> we saw this, right? the reason why biden got the nomination was not because he was the furthest left or even the closest to the middle. it was because he seemed the most electable. we've seen this again and again.

you know, he goes into these elections, and people say, well, he's boring. you know, we don't get excited about him. we want some other random candidate who is going to get people excited. >> the rock. >> right, the rock. but the reason why he does well is because people like these democratic ideas, and they've seen him enact a lot of them. >> they like the democratic ideas. they like freedom for women, to have power over their own lives. they like 10-year-old girls having the freedom, along with their parents and their clergy and their medical providers, to make decisions if they've been raped by illegal immigrants. donald trump doesn't. certainly, the united states supreme court decision, dobbs, doesn't. >> nope. >> they also, i mean, they like what they saw yesterday. a grown-up dealing with grown-up problems. like, the takeaway for donald trump and xi in their first meeting was, swear to god, donald trump, if nobody

remembers, said, "we had the greatest chocolate cake at mar-a-lago you have ever had." that was his deliverable. >> it was good, in fairness. it was the molten where it spills out when you cut into it. >> very moist, i get it. i love those type of cakes. >> was that one of the dinners where classified documents were floating around, too? i think that was with -- >> that was with the japanese, yeah. >> but we laugh about it now. when we get in the voting booth, all the things we talked about, freedom, maturity, and actually a grownup dealing with huge crises, makes a difference when people walk into a voting booth. >> with donald trump, it's only going to get worse over the next year. think how january isn't going to be just defined by what's happening in the caucus, in the primaries. it's going to be donald trump's legal problems that are just going to keep being at the forefront. i'm really watching. you're talking about the dobbs

decision. let's call them dobbs dads. they're the dads who tend to be conservative, and they might still be pro life, but they don't like that the government has gotten involved to this extent and is going to dictate their wife, their daughter's health care. so that's enough, that if biden can pull those voters, and i think he probably will after what we saw just, you know, two tuesdays ago or last tuesday. >> and donald trump running around bragging that he, quote, terminated roe v. wade. >> exactly. >> we saw those dobbs dads, what, two weeks ago, week and a half ago, in kentucky. we saw them in virginia. we saw in the ballot initiative in ohio. another interesting thing about the poll yesterday, john, this is for people worried about joe biden, is that donald trump really is the best opponent for joe biden. the other head-to-head matchups, ron desantis leads by more than donald trump would. nikki haley massively over joe biden in one national poll. >> way ahead.

>> donald trump, it's not going to be easy. it's going to be close. we already know that, but he very well may be the best chance for joe biden to be re-elected. >> that's always been the case, even before the 2022 midterms. talking to white house strategists and those who want to get joe biden a second term were like, "well, donald trump is the guy we want to see. we think that's who we'll see. that's also who we're going to see." republicans have the choice. they still do. no votes have been cast yet, but right now, trump is up 30% in every single gop poll. certainly, he looks like it'll be him. the biden team feels, they know it'll be close, but they feel pretty good about that. in part, because they know, just like in 2020, there may not be a groundswell of support for joe biden, but there will be a groundswell of support against donald trump and for certain issues, particularly abortion rights. >> you know, let's just -- what is today? what year are we in? >> november 16th. >> november 16th, 2023. remember, i said it here on this

date. if biden runs against trump, and if biden beats trump as i think he will, the conspiracy theorists will say, donald trump was on the ropes and then the democrats knew they were in trouble, so they started indicting him. and with every indictment, donald trump's approval rating in the republican party went up. >> right. >> he's now, the latest i saw, at 85%. he was down to 55%, 60% before the indictments started coming in. that can be your conspiracy theory if you want, but how screwed up, to belong to a party that actually rewards a guy for being indicted for stealing nuclear secrets and stealing elections. >> you know, republicans have a base problem. their base controls their party. >> right! >> so that's why donald trump is going to be their nominee. i'm thinking about this off off-year election, and all of the things they ran on that were losers besides abortion. book bans. >> right.

>> anti-woke. gas stoves. >> trans panic. >> trans panic. right? your kids are all going to become trans by reading books. >> by the way, my favorite illustration of how crazy that is, is they had this huge fight in utah. >> right. >> oh, my god, these trans athletes are taking over all the women sports. it's the worst thing in the world. the governor said, um, we have four students, four, in the entire state of utah. can we try to figure this out and do it with compassion? >> yeah. >> that doesn't mean that, like, guys that transition into being women post puberty should compete against them, but we have four students. >> right. >> let's not have a civil war over four students. but that's the trans panic. >> yeah. >> they thought that was going to work. didn't work. like, taking freedom away from

women been work. stealing elections, denying elections, didn't work. you're right, it is a base problem. democrats, what do they do with their base? we'll get back to you in a couple weeks. i mean, but the republican base -- >> is running the show. >> -- they run the show. >> that's why, i mean, book bans, moms for liberty had a bad night. all of this is because republicans cannot control their base. their base runs the show, and so you have these crazy ideas being shopped, and republicans are losing on these ideas. quite frankly, they should. they're morally reprehensible. you know, it's overreach. people don't want the government in their bedroom and in their schools and in -- i mean, they want them in the schools but -- >> yet, and yet, there's actually an outfit called moms for liberty. >> yes. >> who support freedom being taken away from their daughters.

>> yeah. freedom. says to the government, you know what? we'll take care of our daughter. we'll -- her mother and i will make the decision with our daughter, with health care specialists. like, get out of our lives. yet, moms for liberty, seriously, worried about what? roberto clemente books? >> you see doctors -- this other thing is you're undermining doctors, right? you have doctors leaving red states because they can't practice medicine. >> where there already are not enough ob-gyn providers in rural communities. so the saying goes, democrats hate their base. republicans fear their base. that's really playing out right now. >> yeah. >> you see, i mean, not the democrats hating their base. i'm not commenting on that, but that's the political -- you know, people have been saying it a long time. but if you look at the new

hampshire polls and just how nikki haley would crush joe biden, if the republican party actually had a political apparatus that -- >> if they wanted to win. >> -- did party control and would strongarm. instead, you have a political party that each person, top leadership, wants to keep their power and not be transplanted by trump. >> i'll say also, willie, and i noticed this since joe biden has been president. i'll say it again. the progressives have been extraordinarily patient. >> yup. >> they've been the opposite of the right-wing extremists. they've actually kept -- progressives have kept the bigger goal in mind. we need to win elections. we need to have joe biden continue to appoint federal judges. we need to win governors. i mean, progressives have done the opposite of what the extremes in the republican party have done, and it shows. because of that, because of

progressives working with moderates, they just keep winning elections. >> i was going to say, look at the results. look at last tuesday. look at 2022. it goes on and on and on. to elise's point, that poll went unnoticed, that nikki haley in head-to-heads was winning double digits over joe biden in the swing states, yet republicans are, by and large, wanting to cast their lot with donald trump. >> now, there has been another push of gop donors who are eyeing haley, might throw more money behind it, but it might be too little, too late. a few months from iowa and then new hampshire. you're right, joe, the progressives have been remarkably disciplined and patient. we're seeing splintering because of what is happening in the middle east right now. >> certainly. >> that alarms some people in the biden world. are they going to stay with us? are they going to stay home? but to this point, they're with the president. they have been with the president to this point, and, of course, there are issues of enthusiasm going forward, but, again, if trump is on the other

side of the ballot, they like their chances. >> molly, the problem with the base in these polls that really won't matter at all, i mean, they just won't. >> right. >> the base is going to vote for joe biden, more specifically, it's going to vote against donald trump. the problem is not really with the democratic base as much as it's been with people of color, especially men. black men, hispanic men, younger voters, that's been the problem with those polls. again, you're talking about groups that, by and large, are going to come home. i seriously -- anybody who thinks donald trump is getting 22% of black voters, please, go to the "morning joe" betting site and bet heavy on that. over/under, willie, 11. >> 11. >> over/under, 11. >> take the under. >> i will take the under. i'll take the under, too.

again, just to underline, again, progressives, of course, they feel very strongly on some foreign policy issues. >> yeah. >> again, they've stayed together with the caucus. >> biden has done a lot of progressive legislation. i think it's worth remembering that he has gone in there. the infrastructure spending is huge progressive legislation. you know, they're rebuilding trains and bridges and roads. also, you know, he's worked really hard on student debt. while the supreme court has gotten in his way, he has continually tried to do creative things with student debt, in a way that a president who was more conservative probably would not. >> no doubt about it. "vanity fair's" molly jong-fast, thank you, as always. great to see you, molly. >> thank you, molly. >> mika, what is coming up? ahead on "morning joe," your conversation, joe, with academy award winning filmmaker martin scorsese on his film, "killers

of the flower moon," getting rave reviews. plus, national security council strategic communications spokesman john kirby on president biden and china's xi jinping's high stakes meeting. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. it's not just designed to look good. it's built to command attention. it's not just a comfortable interior. it's a quiet refuge. ♪ ♪ they're not just headlights. they light the way forward. the fully electric audi q8 e-tron. ♪ ♪ are you silently suffering from bladder or bowel leaks? i understand. for years i struggled with both... then an expert physician

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service members who didn't develop the policy and can't change it. >> if you do not believe these holds are having an effect on the military, i don't question your sincerity, i question your judgment. if this continues, this is one of the worst, self-inflicted wounds i have seen in 20 years. we're taking the military and throwing it in the ditch in terms of command structure. there are people filling jobs today that are waiting to go to their next assignment, and they can't get there because they can't get promoted. they're paying two house payments, not one. they have children who don't know what school they're going to go to. they deserve better than this. >> wow, republican senator lindsey graham couldn't have made it more clear there, laying out the real world consequences

of senator tommy tuberville's hold on military promotions. one man holding hundreds of promotions. he was one of a few republicans, graham, who was on the floor overnight calling on the alabama lawmaker to end the blockade of more than 400 military promotions. on tuesday, the senate rules committee approved a resolution that would temporarily allow the upper chamber to approve military promotions in large batches instead of one by one, as tuberville's holds require. the resolution will now head to the full senate for a vote which will have to come after the chamber's thanksgiving recess. which wait has been excruciaing for military families and, as lindsey graham points out, it is a self-inflicted wound on our military and on the party. >> and on the country. i mean, on military readiness. >> geez. >> i told the story of when i

first got to congress. first was talking to a staffer on the armed services committee. said, you know, you'll have a lot of people coming before you. they're going to be talking to you about weapon systems. we're going to have long debates on weapon systems, debates on the number of ships we need in the u.s. navy. we'll have troop levels. we'll have all of these different debates, all these different arguments. understand this, joe, understand that readiness starts and ends with the families of the men and women who are fighting our wars. if they're treating well, readiness will be just fine. >> right. >> we've seen too many times, this staff member told me, where we didn't focus enough on the well-being of the families, and we suffered. whether it was army, navy, air

force, marines, coast guard, or -- >> this is taking it to a new level. >> yeah. lindsey is right there, it's devastating for military readiness. let's bring into the conversation msnbc contributor mike barnicle, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr., and host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. mike, this is all about readiness. here we have a guy who is acting like a clown from alabama, acting like a clown, a dangerous clown, who talks about how we have too many people in the pentagon, upper tier people in the pentagon already. who when, because of him, you have a guy working two jobs at the top of the united states marine corps, ends up having a medical event, just pure exhaustion, and tommy tuberville goes, "everybody works hard. i was up at night watching film for the game against georgia tech." i mean, the ignorance is just

shocking. i mean, i think the people of alabama are even onto this guy. he's a clown. >> i would hope so. >> he is bad for u.s. readiness. he's bad for our military. he's bad for america. >> you know, joe, you outlined something that's really important in all of this, the military families. lindsey graham eluded to it, too, on the floor of the senate. so when you get a different post in the military, that means a different zip code you move to. it means you have to change schools with your kids. it means you have to find housing if you're off base. if you're on post, you still have to find decent housing. your whole family's lives change. >> mike, the spouse that sacrifices so much. >> yeah. >> you talk to anybody in the military for more than a few years, and they will tell you, it was their spouse that kept things going because they kept up, you know, the household, made sure the kids were okay.

when a person in uniform was going all over the world. these spouses, they're going to be transferred and moved, they get jobs in new communities. there are so many people who have lost those jobs because that guy right there, trying to make a stupid political point that hurs america. >> yeah, you have all of that, and then you have the united states senate, instead of staying for an extra day to vote approval on this, they've fled town for thanksgiving vacation. while there are hundreds of military families still -- >> is thanksgiving now? >> pass the turkey. >> it's next week. >> oh, okay. >> they're gone. >> wait a second, they left for thanksgiving last night? >> that's early. >> yeah. >> instead of sticking around. >> they had a week. they could have stayed one day

and voted. >> yeah. >> and gotten the military the help they need. >> in fairness, they're hitchhiking home, so it takes a while. depends if you get a ride. >> i didn't know that. >> donny deutsch, senator dan m tuberville is doing a, quote, national security suicide mission. he said, i'm with you on abortion, but this is the wrong target, the wrong timing in a dangerous world. even the conserve tiff conservative republicans are saying, this is ludicrous and we have to stop. we said the dam broke when republicans were speaking out about it, but tuberville is still in the door. >> it is the republican stunt playbook. do something no matter how stupid to get cameras pointed at you. even if it is threatening to punch somebody.

if you're matt gaetz, you do something that is stupid, you get coverage, you get fundraising, and this is the republican stunt book. >> the problem is, eddie, if you're a republican and trying to get things done, if you're kay granger and you're running the appropriations committee, or if you're mike mccaul and you're running the foreign affairs committee, and you want to get things done, you're not getting them done. you know you're done. you know you're not getting them done because clowns are doing this so they can get $25 donations from across the country, because they use their gestures, sometimes while they're gesturing on the house floor, they use their gestures to raise money. they get tiktok clicks to do the very things that have nothing to do with actually being a responsible united states member of the house or the senate. >> right. it gives us a sense of the

nature of the trouble we face as a country. this cynical approach, that's self-interested, that harms everyday, ordinary folk defending our country, and ultimately harms the country itself. it lets us know that we have a dearth of folk interested in being statesmen and women who are only interested in themselves and securing power for themselves. it's giving a sense of the problem we face in this nation. >> mika, this only happens when republicans are in charge. never happened with nancy pelosi. it never did. so what message are these people, these back benchers, and lindsey was talking about it last night. yes, it's hurting the country. yes, it's hurting the military. it is also really damaging to the republican party. again, i will say it again, i won't say the dates, they've lost elections seven consecutive years in a row. >> right.

>> what they're doing is not working for them. republicans know it. >> they have several patterns of behavior that are just losing over and over again. on issues or blockades or trumpism which leads to losing. we'll be following this. we want to turn now to yesterday's high stakes meeting between president joe biden and chinese leader xi jinping. it was held in woodside, california, about 35 miles south of san francisco. their first meeting in just over a year. xi was quoted through a translator as telling president biden, it was not an option for either country to turn its back on the other. he said, there is enough room to co-exist and be successful. and one country's success is an opportunity for the other. president biden said he secured agreements onee major issues, including an effort to reduce the directhient of

feanyl in all forms from china to the u.s. presiden biden also announced e two militaries wilesume direct contact and communication. and both nations will coordinate on risks and safety issues surrounding artificial intelligence. pretty good meeting. after the meeting, the president spoke about managing the relationship with china. >> these are tangible steps in the right direction to determine what's useful and what's not useful, what's dangerous and what's acceptable. the united states will continue to compete vigorously with the prc, but we'll manage that competition responsibly, so it doesn't veer into conflict or accidental conflict. and where it's possible, where our interests coincide, we're going to work together, like we did on fentanyl. that's what the world expects of us. the rest of the world expects it, not just people in china and the united states. the rest of the world expects that of us, and that's what the united states is going to be

doing. >> joe, again, a lot of folks focused on the last question. i think that president biden right now is handling three major regions in the world. >> yup. >> as best he can, trying to pull together coalitions and also create relationships where we must have them. >> i couldn't agree more. you know, every president has their weaknesses, has their strengths. i mean this as no disrespect to anybody, being harold ford jr. here, everybody is great. >> love you, harold. >> historians are going to look back on joe biden's presidency and say he is the most effective foreign policy leader since 41, bush 41. he's managing conflict extraordinarily. he has a great team around him. you know, willie, richard haass said it wasn't a sexy meeting.

baby, stability, stability is sexy. >> yeah. >> especially when the alternative is world war iii. i was really pleased. again, the most important deliverable, we talked about it is, the militaries which haven't been talking to each other. for the two strongest nations on the face of the earth, they're now talking to each other. they're communicating. that is a great way when, as admiral stavridis said, when some hot head creates a crisis somewhere in the south china sea, biden can pick up the phone, talk to xi, and temperatures can come down. >> it sounds like an obvious thing, but it wasn't happening. >> right. >> now, out of the meeting yesterday, we can say, at least the lines of communication are open. mike, as richard haass was saying in the last hour, maybe these things will come to fruition, maybe they won't. maybe the flow of fentanyl will stop or slow from china, which could save lives in this country. hope that's true. as a baseline, the fact that the two of them, diplomatically

speaking, are walking through the garden together, that xi is saying, "my old friend joe biden," that they're at least having a relationship, it's step one. the alternative, as joe says, is war, which no one wants. >> baseline is the key word. richard haass was here earlier. admiral stavridis was here earlier. they are big thinkers, global thinkers. they know a lot more about this than i do, certainly. but i think if you were talking to the president of the united states today and said, what did you get out of the meeting? what positive messages did you get out of the meeting? i think among them, he would say to you, you know, we were comfortable with each other. i've known xi a long time. if you notice, mike, when we met, he smiled, and i smiled. we get along. we know what the deal is. we know what the dangers are. we know what the potential is. we know we're both flawed nations. we both have problems. we had a conversation as friends, not as heads of state. i think that's the positive that you have to take out of it.

as you just said, what's the alternative? the military doesn't talk to one another? some guy flying an f-105 out of beijing, you know, almost clips an american aircraft carrier over the south china sea? no, we don't want that. we want the ability, as joe referenced, of one president to call the other prime minister, pick up the phone and get him on the line and say, "what's going on today? what happened? we have to cut this stuff out." >> it is absolutely critical. again, mika, experience matters. everybody wants -- >> yes. >> -- movie stars. >> they want excitement. >> reality tv stars. somebody to come in and shake things up. again, i will say it, i've never known anybody sitting in a waiting room getting ready to have brain surgery say, "you know what? give me somebody with no experience. i want them to shake things up. see what happens in the operation. throw caution."

no, no. this is the toughest job in the world. the most important job in the world. experience counts. biden was number two leader in the united states, the vice president when xi was number two in china. >> senate foreign relations committee. >> they have history. they have experience. they know each other. it matters. >> decades of experience. while there may be very grave issues on the world stage in the foreign policy arena that this president has to deal with, for the election, it may be the economy that matters most to voters. political columnist for "new york" magazine argues that selling bidenomics is president biden's only chance to beat donald trump. his latest piece, heites the le mt common criticism of biden's re-election campaign is that he made a ghastly error by branding his policies bidenomics. americans think the economy is

terrible, and democrats have been begging the president to stop branding himself as the architect of something that people hate. but he ss this isn't all biden's ul people's basic facal sense of both economic conditions and biden's role is woeful. the unemployment rate i at historically low levels, and the u.s. economy is growing faster than most other economies in the world. but polls show most people think the reverse is true. the public has very little awareness of biden's main accomplishments, which are, when defined in neutral terms, extremy popur. he continues, i would also speculate that doing more to inform the public about what biden has done to help the economy would soften up public skepticism about his age. it's harder to believe he's a vegetable if you know what he has accomplished.

joe, i would say that on a number of levels. joe biden is perfectly functioning and above normal in terms of any president we've known in our lifetimes. that's not me shilling. that's just a fact. he's accomplished more and handled more, and you can add it up and count for yourself. >> i mean, more bipartisan legislation passed than any president maybe since, i don't know, lbj? >> yeah, okay. >> maybe lbj. maybe, you know, clinton got a lot of bipartisan legislation through, as well. >> he did, yeah. >> he knows what he is doing. foreign policy stage, we've already talked about it. nato, which donald trump was trying to destroy, stronger than ever before. and on foreign policy, i have yet to talk to anybody, world leader, diplomat, ambassador, anybody that has talked to biden

behind the scenes that doesn't come away going, my god, this guy has complete grasp of the issues and knows a hell of a lot more about it than most american politics. what you said is true. may not matter to a lot of people. some don't give a damn when it comes to the truth of how effective he is, when it comes to foreign policy. we're talking foreign policy, but as jonathan chait wrote, it's also for the economy, donald trump talking about it being the best ever. it's the seventh best since world war ii. jimmy carter had a stronger gdp average than donald trump did. you look at our gdp. it's over 4% right now. unemployment is under 4% right now. you look at all the metrics,

inflation coming down. we're doing better than the rest of the world. a hell of a lot better than china, a lot better than european nations. yet, and i think this comes down to partisanship, people just hear day in and day out how bad the economy is. even if 75% of americans say they're doing well economically, something like 80% say we're going in the wrong direction. >> it's the last claim that really i want to latch on. i'll defer to donny around the branding and all this other stuff, but what happens when basic factual claims enter into an information ecosystem that is divided in the way ours is? >> right. >> so even if biden and his people go even harder on bidenomics, it's going to enter into the fox world. it's going to enter into the newsmax world, maybe even the new univision world. how will that land? i don't know what happens. this is a broader question that perhaps we can take up, what

happens when the american public cannot gather information such that it can engage in a seasoned deliberation to make choices that are informed by actual data, in order to vote? instead, they're moved about by passion. so i don't know whether or not you double down on bidenomics will actually break through this information ecosystem that's so divided by partisanship. >> right. it's how you do it. donny, so much of it is targeting. target young people. target people of color. men that are thinking about moving to trump, maybe they'll be interested to know that black unemployment has been at record lows under joe biden. look at the legislation that was passed, all of the legislation that was passed that, again, is so different than anything donald trump was ever able to accomplish. it is microtargeting. speaking of microtargeting, i want to show how these numbers, i just don't pay attention. i just don't pay attention to

all the whiners. you know, his approval rating, one of the most irrelevant numbers there is. look at new hampshire. here, we're going to talk about this more in the future. this is joe biden's approval rating in new hampshire. 37%. i'm yawning right now. you know why i'm yawning? i know what the next slide is going to show. what the next slide shows in new hampshire, he's beating donald trump, and he is beating donald trump by five points. there's 12% undecided. in the swing states, you take georgia, the suburbs of atlanta, take the suburbs of philly, you take the suburbs of detroit, of milwaukee. i mean, you know, there are a ton of people that didn't vote for donald trump in 2020. there are a ton of people that aren't going to vote for him in 2024. but they do need to get the message out. it's how they get it out. does he need to go -- eddie, it's a great point. does joe biden need to go and make a big speech and let fox

news and newsmax and the chinese religious cult website chew it up and spit it out, find 2 seconds they don't like? no, no. that is ground noise. the signal is getting the message to voters in new hampshire, getting the message to voters in the suburbs that will decide this election. >> the message is, here's where maybe the democrats have gone wrong, and that's in the world economics. bidenomics. economics is an abstract thing. you have to make it about you, the voter. how are you doing? how is your ira going? how do you feel about things? as you said earlier, 75% of the country thinks we're on the right track economically, but you have to start to personalize it. you have to start to make it about how are you, yes, inflation is a problem. other than that, other than the comfort of what you see going on with foreign relations, other than seeing jobs are at an all-time high, unemployment is at an all-time low, how are you

doing since four years ago? how do you feel versus four years ago with a lunatic in the office? the message is right. maybe the framing, maybe the title, economics and bidenomics are very cold terms. make it about you. >> well, yeah, make it about you. these targets approaches. i'll tell you, there are guys on golf courses, you know 'em, i know 'em, there are guys on yachts, you know 'em, i know 'em, we all know 'em, making more money than they have ever made in their lives. willie, all the while, they've got the american flag upside down because the country is going to hell. biden is destroying the country. then they get their phone out, how much money did i make today on the market? oh, okay. wow, you know what? maybe i will buy that villa in the south of france after all. i mean, the hypocrisy of these clowns, i'll say the word again,

who are making more money than they've ever made in their life playing on the golf courses, like on their yachts, and they have the flag upside down because, oh, my god, biden is ruining america. actually, we're doing better economically than every other country on the earth. >> the gang on the driving range is very upset, buying their third and fourth homes. now, you put your finger on something important, which is inequality. these very, very rich people in america are doing great. you can't go tell somebody, you're actually doing well. you should feel better about how you're doing, when they're not feeling that. their wages are stagnant. they watch a bunch of people who don't pay very much tax, some pay no tax, getting rich, and they see the data. they see there are more jobs than we can fill in this they see the gdp and go, i'm not feeling that. i have a job, but my wages haven't gone up.

that's what people don't talk about, wage stagnation. mike, there are an awful lot of people in this country who don't feel like they are participating in or benefitting from the data that shows a strong u.s. economy. >> right. there's all of that and also the fact we have to face facts. we live in a country with no patience. no patience whatsoever. a country that has a diminishing memory of anything that happened further back than a week ago. they've lost it. they don't know what happened. they don't remember what happened. we live in a tiktok nation. people get news in 20, 25 seconds on their phone. here's their day. they get up in the morning, man or woman, going to work. they need gas. the last thing that americans do together, because there's no full service gas stations anymore. >> jersey. >> is take the pump, put it in the side of the car, lean against the car, and watch those numbers flash by.

wow, a month ago, they were filling 70 bucks and now they're doing 20 bucks at a time to safe money. then the grocery store. you see the price of eggs? wow. they leave the grocery store. they go home. they get home at the end of the workday. they make out a check or zelle their credit card payment. interest rates have gone up. wow, i'm getting hammered all day long. the phone rings. it's a pollster. how do you feel about the country? it's terrible! it's terrible. it's human nature, is what it is. it's not political so much as it is cultural and economic. >> it's also idiocy. you mentioned tiktok. i said this off the air, and there is this upside downism that's happening. what's trending on tiktok right now, this is unfathomable, this is for all the geniuses on college campuses saying free palestine, is osama bin laden

sent a letter to america after the terrorist attack explaining why he did it. thousands of young people on tiktok now are saying, they're rethinking things about osama bin laden. they're rethinking about terrorism, based on the letter to america. this is the idiocy of young people today. if you want to know what's going on on college campuses, and people can't see the difference between good and evil, bad and good. >> no memory. >> there's no memory. they actually are thinking, rethinking osama bin laden and 9/11. you wonder why what's going on with young people and the idiocy on college campuses, not understanding the difference between israel and hamas and going pro hamas, they're rethinking osama bin laden. this is what young people have on their minds. >> eddie, if i can stand up for young people briefly, that is the most extreme element that gets all the amplification and the attention on tiktok. there are a lot of super smart young people. but i take your point. the amplification of the extremes is made possible on social media. >> i will say, eddie, and i know

we have to go to break, i'm sorry, i know we have to go, but i have a professor here. after grandpa said what he said about tiktok, a lot of which i agree with, i will say, eddie, you know, the first couple weeks i was blaming university presidents. i was blaming administrators, and they fumbled the ball. there's no doubt about it. but the radicalism on college campuses right now, a lot of it is being spread -- and i talk to my kids and my kids' friends -- tiktok. you know, you get something 30 seconds on tiktok, and it goes viral. >> yeah. >> suddenly, it doesn't matter what a professor like you says in a class for an hour. they've got their 15, 30 seconds, and they can go around the campus shouting whatever inane slogan they heard or read on tiktok. >> social media platforms complicate the nature of protest all across the board. i know we have to go to break, but i want to say this quickly.

there are nearly 4,000 four-year degree granting universities and colleges in the country. nearly 4,000. we're making these claims as if it is happening all across these campuses. >> right. >> what you see across -- because i'm traveling all the time. i teach there, work there. you see students having hard conversations. some of them are civil. some of them are not so civil. but they're having hard conversations. we need to be very, very clear. i think we need to be very, very clear here, to critique the execution of the war, to critique israel is not necessarily an anti-semitic claim. what we have to do is figure out how to disentangle what we already knew was on the rise, anti-semitism, with the critique of the war. >> it is anti-semitism. >> this is not 1970. this is not cornell in 1969. universities and colleges are not hotbeds of illiberalism,

right? these are places where young people are learning how to engage in the deliberative process. >> i think a lot is anti-semitism. >> what is the basis of that? >> how do you start to applaud hamas when the jihadist mission that they -- >> that -- >> -- had was to kill jews? i listened to an audio tape of a young man, this is on the idf released tape, of a young man not saying free palestine, he was a terrorist who killed a couple. he said, "god is great. i killed jews." >> clearly anti-semitism. >> he was not saying free palestine. >> anti-semitism. >> it exists in a big way. somebody is saying, i didn't free palestine, i killed ten jews, and people on college campuses are cheering for hamas. that is anti-semitism. >> first of all, the bases of anti-semitism goes back 3,000

years, 4,000 years. 6 million jews were killed before israel became a nation in 1948. there are 15 million jews alive today because of anti-semitism, because of the slaughters throughout time. but, eddie, you make a great point. we salute dartmouth. what they did was a great idea. they got three professors who had three dramatically different viewpoints. they brought the campus together and had an intelligent, thoughtful discussion about it. that's the way. it's going to get rocky. it's going to get rocky. it is. but, like you said, we have to have the open discussions on campus. i will say, jews have to feel safe walking across campuses, just like muslims do. >> of course, of course. we can't lose sight of our humanity in the midst of this. that last paragraph in nicholas

kristof's op-ed today in "the new york times," if you weep only for israeli children or only for palestinian children, you have a problem that goes beyond your tear ducts. children on both sides have been slaughtered quite recklessly, and fixing this crisis starts with acknowledging the principle. so basic, it shouldn't need mentioning, all children's lives have equal value. >> right. >> good people come in all nationalities. >> absolutely. >> so we begin with that baseline, we're at a place to have a conversation. >> it's a great baseline. >> we love each other. how we have gotten to a place that we're sitting like this. >> right. >> that's it. >> what i like to hear is, i would like to hear people on both sides crying and weeping for children on both sides, for people, for civilians on both sides. >> exactly. >> who are suffering because of this terrible, terrible crisis that was brought on by hamas.

i will say, and this is where we can have the debates on campus, by the human suffering brought on by hamas hiding behind civilians, it was part of their plan from the very beginning. they cheer when jews die. they cheer when palestinians die. they consider both to be propaganda victories for them. so i agree with nick, who has written some incredible pieces here, but we do need to have the discussion. and your point is taken. i'm a huge supporter of a two-state solution. people say there's no way. we have to have one. israelis and palestinians, we have to move forward where they can live together and each have statehood. >> yeah. >> the obvious difference of what nick wrote, and i think hopefully we all agree on that is, hamas killed those children as part of a strategy, to go kill israeli children. to go kill israeli grandmothers. israel is targeting hamas, and

they're killing children because hamas is putting those children between themselves and the bombs and those idf soldiers. it is not a strategy to kill children for israel. it's a strategy to get rid of hamas, and it is an important distinction we have to make. >> important distinction. but the decision to go after hamas when the children are in front of you is still a decision ha has been made. >> when hamas holds children in front of them. >> they shouldn't. >> as human shields. >> so that's the -- >> and still have -- >> but you have to make the decision. when you see the babies there, when you see them there, i know we have to go to break. >> they want to kill your babies. >> hold on a second. we're going to have -- this college seminar discussion is going to continue. thank you, donny deutsch and eddie. >> throw me off. that's great. >> we appreciate it. no, no. there's a reason why. from san francisco, listening to our college rap session, has been national security council coordinator for

strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby. thank you so much for sitting through our college seminar class. we greatly appreciate it. i know you would agree with everybody here, it is an extraordinarily important discussion to have. but let's talk about what happened yesterday in san francisco. it's really, i believe, just my opinion, it's hard to overstate the importance of these two world leaders getting together and opening communications again between their military and ours. >> i agree, joe. this was unlike the meeting a year ago in bali. that meeting, the purpose of it was to meet, was to try to get the conversation going and get the relationship on a better track. obviously, events unfolded that prevented us from doing that. this meeting yesterday actually delivered results for the american people. quite frank li, the people of china and people around the world. but the american people benefitted from this sit-down together between president xi and president biden.

first, on fentanyl. the chinese, for the first time now in several years agreed to coordinate with us in a law enforcement manner to get after the chemical ingredients of fentanyl and stop them being exported from china to latin america. that'll be an impact on the production of fentanyl and the flow into the united states. number two, and you mentioned it, it's the military o'mil to military kpun this communications. people can pass it off, what is the big deal? it is a huge development, a step forward here. we haven't been aeo do that. when you're talking about air intercepts and sea intercepts that are close and dangerous, the chances of miscalculations, of constantly coming out of the result of an accident or mishap are too great. now, we'll be able to get our militaries at various levels up and down the chain of command to talk to one another, to try to explain ourselves to one another, and take those tensions down. >> the other issue, among many, was a.i. what's the next step in terms of moving forward on these issues, holding accountability on both

sides, and then the awkward issue of taiwan? >> thanks, mika. on a.i., both leaders agreed that there is great promise but also potential peril here in artificial intelligence. what they both agreed to do was to create a team of teams, basically, connect our two teams together to work on some solutions, to work on some policies, to work on ways we can cooperate with the prc on the development of artificial intelligence, so that there's more promise and a whole lot less peril, a lot more transparency and accountability across the board. not just through government but working with tech companies. on taiwan, the president said this himself at the press conference, he was very direct, very clear with president xi, we don't seek any tensions, don't seek a conflict. we don't want to see the status quo in the taiwan straits changed in a unilateral way or by force. we want peace and stability there. he also made it clear, nothing changed about our one china

policy. we don't support independence for taiwan, but we are, in keeping with the taiwan relations act and the law, we want to provide taiwan with the self-defense capabilities they require. >> good to have you back on the show. of the topics out of the meeting yesterday, the one that probably hits home for a lot of americans is something you mentioned a moment ago, fentanyl. there's obviously an epidemic in this country. there's not a community in america that hasn't been touched in some tragic way by that. can you explain a little bit about how fentanyl is getting from china to latin america, why president xi actually could play a big role in solving this crisis here in the united states? >> so the basic chemical ingredients that go into making, producing fentanyl, many of them are actually created in china. these are precursor chemicals, they're called. they're the building blocks, the foundation of fentanyl, which is a mix. it has to be concocted in a lab. many of those labs exist in

latin america. that's where the cartels are creating fentanyl as a drug. also, the pill presses, the actual mechanical devices that form these things into pills. of course, the pills can find themselves in all manner of other products and drugs. anyway, the manufacturing happens in latin america, then the cartels run them north right up to the border and into the united states. so what we're trying to do, if you think about a supply chain in that regard, we're trying to go to the left of that supply chain, as far left as we can go, getting at the chemical ingredients that make up fentanyl in china. president xi made it clear yesterday that he doesn't want to see another american die because of fentanyl. he recognizes they can have a significant role to play here, to get at the left of that problem. he agreed that they're going to crack down more on the chemical ingredients, on the production and export out of the country. it'll take time before we start to see an immediate effect, but

right now, they're already doing this. hopefully, they'll step up their efforts and we'll start to see a much greater reduction of the creation of fentanyl and the flow of it into the country. >> admiral, good morning. i'm sure you know some good news that after the summit, president xi jinping announced china would look to send more pandas to the united states. >> there you go. >> good news there. i wanted to ask you about president biden leaning, perhaps, if you can tell us if he did, on xi jinping to excerpt some influence on two countries which china has real influence. that would be russia, which the battle of ukraine, and iran, the role they're playing in the middle east. can you tell us what was said there? >> well, they certainly did talk about the war in ukraine and, of course, what's going on in the middle east. china has interests in europe, and they have interest there in the middle east, as well. they also have conversations with nations that we can't have or don't have. for instance, with iran. i won't go into too much of the

diplomacy here, but we believe that china could be helpful. if they're willing to be helpful with, for instance, iran, and making it clear to iran that iran should not escalate this conflict, should not try to take advantage of it, and should stop threatening our troops in iraq and syria. of course, china and russia have been growing closer together here in recent months. a worrisome, burgeoning defense relationship between the two countries. that said, jonathan, we have not seen china move forward to provide any lethal capabiliies to russia's army. they haven't, obviously, condemned the invasion. they're not implementing sanctions on russia. they're not really holding putin accountable. they also haven't done anything to demonstrably help russian armed forces on the ground that we certainly don't want to see them do that. yes, there was a conversation in general about these two major conflicts in the world. the way those conflicts are affecting china, the way they're affecting the united states, the way they're affecting our network of allies and partners.

>> national security council coordinator for strategic communications tat white house, retired rear admiral john kirby, thank you very much, once again, for coming on this morning. we'll see you again soon. >> yes, ma'am. to the middle east now. more than 1.5 million people have been displaced from the gaza strip following the october 7th terrorist attack that sparked the war between israel and hamas. now in a new "wall street journal" op-ed, two members of the israeli nesset are talk. >> caller: -- calling on the west to take in refugees. one of the authors is a senior member of the party and the former israeli ambassador to the u.n. he joins us now from jerusalem. thank you so much for joining us this morning. tell us more about where you think these refugees should go. what would make the most sense?

>> good morning. so the idea we brought to the attention of the community is to have a discussion about those in gaza who choose to move to another country. it is about time that other countries, not only the west, i'm talking about all the world, will consider to accept a symbolic number of refugees that will leave gaza into different communities. we don't intend to force anyone, but those that would like to open their life in a different place, a new chapter of their life, should have that possibility. we have seen, you know, in syria, millions moving out, in ukraine. i think it is legitimate that we have a discussion about that. every country would take 5,000, 10,000 refugees from gaza, it can help them a lot. it can change the reality in gaza. those that choose to stay in gaza, it'd be easier to stay there. >> so how would that, in terms of its actual execution, how would that work? >> i think you need the

goodwill, first, of the people in gaza. i know there are many that want to move out of gaza. unlike many citizens of the world, they don't have the ability to do so. you need to do it with the willingness from countries to accept limited number. i know, you know, that people are not eager to accept refugees from the middle east. when you lkt the numbers, you know, even if a country would take 1,000, 5,000, and it adds up, we have 192 countries in the world, then you can actually help many families in gaza to move out of this place. it wasn't easy to live in gaza before the war. it will not be easy after the war. >> mr. danon, thanks for being with us. i ask an obvious question about refugees. why isn't egypt doing more? they share a border with gaza. why aren't they opening the border and welcoming refugees there in the way, say, poland has done for ukraine? >> that's a legitimate question. you know, every day, we hear that egypt is threatening they will not allow even one refugee

to get out of gaza. i think arab countries should be part of this initiative. they cannot just watch and sit idly by. i think it'd be easier for refugees from gaza to be adopted into arab countries because of the language, religion, culture. but i think the burden should be on the international community, to fund it, to support it. but i agree with you, egypt should not be the one that only will look at what's happening in gaza. they should take part of this initiative. also, when you look at what happened in syria, countries like jordan, who are not support offensive of syrians moving into jordan, the end of the day, you have 1.5 million civilias -- syrians in jordan. >> the opposition leader didn't believe benjamin netanyahu was in a position now to lead the country at a time of war, because of what happened on october 7th. can you give us -- do you agree

with that, and can you give a sense of the political stability right there in your nation? >> i think he made a mistake yesterday. now, we have a unity government. we expect everybody to support the government. once we win the war, we'll bring back the hostages, eradicate hamas, i'm sure we'll get into the political aspect, the arguments, and then that'll be the time to have discussion, open discussion, open inquiries. now, it's not the time. now, the people of israel demand unity from the politicians, and that's what we should do. >> i'm wondering, mr. ambassador, again, i want to follow-up with what willie said. i'm wondering why arab countries who are so willing to put out press releases condemning israel, claiming to support the palestinians, are the very ones blocking palestinians for at least seeking temporarily help, whether it's in egypt or whether

it's across other parts of the middle east. especially when u.n. supplies that are being shipped to help palestinian people are being stolen by hamas operatives. >> absolutely. you know, i saw the arab league meeting the other day in saudi arabia. they all flew in with fancy airplanes, had discussions, but they never even thought about the idea of supporting the palestinians by accepting a few thousand to their home countries. i think that is something we have to raise. we have to discuss. it shouldn't be only them. i think the international community as a whole should take responsibility on this issue. it is very easy to condemn israel at the u.n. it is much harder to take real actions. >> all right. the new piece is online now for "the wall street journal." former israeli ambassador to the u.n., danny danon, thank you so

much for joining us this morning for the thoughts and analysis. >> thank you. coming up, we'll hear some advice from former president obama's 2012 campaign manager for democrats worried about president biden's bid for re-election. jim messina on why he says there's no need to panic. "morning joe" will be right back. ythm. with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, i'm getting into my groove. ♪(uplifting music)♪ along with significantly clearer skin... skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi 90% clearer skin and less joint pain are possible. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms,

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people always say, well, are you going to run? i'm going to do everything in my power to make sure and mobilize the moderate, sensible, common sense middle. i'm totally, absolutely scared to death that donald trump will become president again. i think we would lose democracy as we know it, and i'm afraid that joe biden's been pushed too far to the left. can he come back? we'll see. but the bottom line is that's not the joe biden that we thought was being elected, to go that far left. >> are you considering running for president? >> i will do anything i can do

help my country. >> is that a yes? >> you're saying, does that mean you would consider it? absolutely. >> all right. democratic senator joe manchin of west virginia when asked by nbc's kristin welker about a potential run for the white house. with the 2024 election less than a year away, skepticism about president joe biden's re-election chances appears to have reached an all-time high. in an online piece, the brookings institute writes, despite recent signs of a modest upturn in the president's political fortunes, the next d ha-fought, more than in se any contest since 1992. the economy will be the overwhelming focus, but fundamental clashes about the le o government will also be in play against a backdrop of record low public confidence in our governing utions, and contests involving incs

tend to be referendum on the elections. pitting the strongest potential nominee, if it were held tomorrow, the president would probably lose. there's just one thing about that piece. it was not written this month. it was actually written in november of 2011 about then-president barack obama. >> wait a second. >> what? >> you're saying bruce willis was dead the entire movie? >> it still gives me chills. >> the ring falls off. oh my god. it's amazing. >> oh. >> it's amazing. mika doesn't know what we're talking about because she didn't see it. >> i get the point. >> was that, like, not -- >> you're making fun of me. >> it was just the twist at the end of there was a twist here, mika. there was a twist here, a twist. >> i liked it. >> did you like "beverly hills

cop"? >> did i like it? it was the first r-rated movie i ever saw in a theater. >> was it r-rated? >> it was christmas that year and i was 10 years old. now in hindsight, i wonder why my dad brought me to the theater to watch that film. >> it wouldn't be r-rated today. >> no. >> that was great. so anyway, mika -- >> why are we talking about "beverly hills cop"? >> twist. i'm sorry, mika. were we talking about -- >> that was written one year before obama'secisive re-election win over mt romney. >> yes. >> poll after poll, and expert after expert was predicting a disastrous outcome for the 2012 incumbent, and the issues were -- the friction was similar. joining us now, the ceo of the messina group, jim messina.

he ran president obama's re-election campaign and president and ceo of the national urban league, mark moriale joins us as well. the one difference is that democracy is at stake in this election, honestly. that's not hysteria. that's not hyperbole. it's at stake. >> it is at stake. you know what else is at stake? >> what's that? >> who wins in new york's "dancing with the stars" competition. we had a guy that has the inside track here, mr. mayor. >> i'm ready. >> you have been practicing. >> i have been practicing and we'll be on the stage tomorrow night. we had a three-hour rehearsal yesterday. this is hard, to remember the steps. it's hard. so respect for all dancers, but it's a good cause to raise money for dance education, and i'll have a good time. >> who are the big competitors? who's the favorite?

you don't know who you are up against? >> he's got tunnel vision. >> you know what? he can only control him. >> i get it. >> just win it, baby. just win. that's the goal here. >> i love it. >> so jim messina, we have been showing some polls to prove a point that all the bedwetting in washington, d.c., or whining about approval numbers, you know, you go back and look at a campaign you know very much about, barack obama's 2012 campaign. so much whining going on there, and here's the new hampshire poll from emerson yesterday that shows just how irrelevant -- i believe this. you may disagree, that joe biden's approval ratings a year out may be. new hampshire, his approval rating, according to a recent emerson poll is 37%, but you mah him up against donald trump. don't compare me to the almighty. compare me to the alternative as president biden says. it's not even close.

you -- you have been steadfast in telling democrats to stop whining, stop worrying, and get to work. you still feel that way? >> i do, joe, and you talked about this in the last block, like, right now he's running against the almighty, but next year it'll be a choice between two very defined, very clear candidates in donald trump and joe biden, and guess what? we've already had that election, and it's clear that joe biden won that election, and will win this again. i'm not saying this is going to be easy because it's not, but we know that a year ago -- a year out these polls are just absolute garbage. mika showed the 2011 -- the famous nate silver put us on the cover of the "new york times" and said obama was toast. we won handily from what i remember, and that's why these polls are just garbage. in the end, this is a choice between two very different things.

the other thing, you know, mika's right. we have democracy, and we also have the issue of abortion. in 2023 in over 20 elections around the country, democrats overperformed by nine points in elections all over the country because of the issue of abortion. so you put democracy and abortion together, and it's just another reason why i think the choice next year is just going to be very clear. >> yeah, and mike, i mean, saying that barack obama had a 17% chance of re-election in 2011, i mean, it's crazy. it's kind of like the espn tracker saying alabama only has a 21% chance of getting into the playoffs. we're not only going to get into the playoffs. you can't predict things ahead of time, and roll tide by the way. can you believe that? they're number eight, best team in the nation. >> they're not the best team in the nation. >> oh my god. you haven't been watching them? there's not a close second. you know what? they better -- they better buckle their chinstraps in

georgia when they go into what is it? >> mercedes-benz. >> michigan might be better. >> oh my lord. oh my god. you know what? do you think it's 1974? beau shimbeckler is gone. the big ten. >> it's the s.e.c., baby. >> it's not even close. >> we're going to find out. >> last year -- >> if they put alabama in. the fact -- again, they're number eight when they have the best team in the nation. you looklsu, and willie, you know. i'm not a front-runner. i'mlways talking about how bad my teams are. in this case -- you know they kepts out last year and this is about the future of democracy. i'm just a little pissed off right now. they kept us out last year, so tcu could go in. >> right. >> i kept saying, wait a second. tcu, what are you talking about? they're going to get destroyed. oh, you have two losses and they

have -- is it about the best team or is it about these people, like, oregon. my god. oregon is, like, what are they, 0-3 against ranked teams? o-2 against ranked teams? >> alabama has a chance to show it and if they beat georgia, there's no debate anymore. >> can we get back to democracy? >> it shouldn't be a debate. >> in the semifinal last year, tcu beat michigan. >> yeah. >> a week later, georgia beat tcu 65-7. i rest my case about the s.e.c. >> by the way, while we're talking sports, i know democracy is really important, but we kick around poor willie here way too much. let's just talk really quickly about one thing that went right for the new york yankees. this guy has come through for the yankees. >> lemire and i were talking about it. gerrit cole, he's not my favorite guy in the world, but i have to tell you i want him on my team. he takes the ball every fifth

day and gives you over 200. i admire that. >> he's my favorite guy in the world. he wins every time he goes out on the mound. >> t yankees have had a horrible year. he doesn't whine. he goes out and keeps his head down, and he focuses on pitch after pitch after pitch. >> he was 15-4. probably should have been about 22-4. he lost close games because they didn't score for him. >> let's turn the page. let's bring in the mayor. >> jimmy was just talking about 2011/2012, and the polls and everything like that. the polls right now, my view would be like snapshots of last night's sunset. you've got another sunset coming tonight, but my question to you is there seems to be not opposition to president biden, but an indifference towards president biden with all that's going to be at risk in next year's election. indifference among the minority

communities. >> it frames the challenge, and it is about messaging, and messaging is not just talking about what you are doing. it's reminding people about the condition of the nation you inherited. 15 million people out of work, a recession. joe biden inherited a recession. the last three republican presidents have left recessions behind for democratic presidents to clean up. you've got to contextualize your accomplishments and not suggest that you've accomplished all your goals and then you've got to talk about unfinished business. so in the black community, police reform is unfinished business. gun safety is unfinished business. the voting rights act that joe manchin supported, but would not -- would not create a narrow exception to the filibuster to allow us to get it through the senate is unfinished business.

so on one hand, here's what we've accomplished. here is what we've done. so we've got to say, here's the condition of things when we took over. you have got to remind and articulate because what you are running against is the guy that left the mess. >> and by the way, the unfinished business was business biden fought for, but republicans blocked. >> precisely, joe. so you've got to -- >> voting rights act, you go down the list. >> so when people say, by the way, what about this unfinished business? joe, mr. president, did you fight hard enough? he's got to say, i'll continue to fight for it, but remind people it was a republican filibuster that blocked voting rights, that blocked police reform, that continues to block gun safety legislation. so it's a three-part thing. one, here's the condition of the country when i took over. number two, here are the things we've done to fulfill our commitments and promises to you, and three, here's the unfinished

business. democracy versus autocracy, the economy of today not perfect. many people suffering, but not 15 million people out of work. so you've got to contextualize. this is about a narrative -- you have to remind people. you're not running against yourself. you're not running just on your record. you're running against the guy that left the mess. you're running against the guy that orchestrated january 6th. you're running against the guy that left millions of americans out of work, and if you don't do that, you've got to tell the story. people have a short attention span, and if you don't create a picture and a narrative people can get lost in my condition today. so people are suffering or things are difficult. housing costs are high. money does not go as far as people want it to go, but then therein lies the debate on the policies of the future to try to

correct that. >> you know about running a democratic president's re-election campaign. weigh in if you will as to what you have seen from the biden team in recent months. they've spent a lot of money early this year trying to boost the president's approval rating. there was pro-biden spending. it seems like they're shifting tactics now and trying to focus on negative on trump and really drawing contrasts every chance they get. what do you think the best strategy is? >> well, jonathan, this is the greatest block i've ever been a part of because it combines any two true loves, college football and politics, and joe is skipping the part where the longhorns went into tuscaloosa, alabama, and beat down the crimson tide. >> beat down? i hope -- i hope the longhorns are unfortunate enough to go up

against jalen milrose again. bring it on, baby. >> how did you like that lsu quarterback? >> daniels. >> is he a first-round pick? is he a first pick? >> as long as he doesn't have to play against alabama, he'll do just fine. i'm sorry, jim. go ahead. >> you were saying, jim, but my prediction, and i don't want this, joe, but it's going to be a three-peat for the dogs. i think it's very tough, but back to politics -- >> how do they lose as badly as they've going to lose in the s.e.c. championship game and still win the national championship? i don't understand that, jim. >> although don't you think both teams get in? two one-loss s.e.c. team haves to get in. >> it depends on how badly alabama beats georgia. if it's within 30 points, i think both get in. >> yeah. i think that's right. >> not great. anyway, jim. go ahead. talk about the future of democracy. is democracy going to win next

year, and what do you say to the bedwetters all across washington, d.c. right now? >> calm down. go to a swing state and organize. there are seven states that's going to matter here, but jonathan asked me what i think about the biden strategy, and, you know, it goes back to the mayor's point. i think the mayor's exactly right. this is about two things right now. first is talking to the base, and the biden campaign is the largest bye this far out to african american, latino, and young voters we've ever seen. you go into these battleground states and all you see biden campaign talking to those groups and two, they have been out there laying down an economic track. they need to continue to do that. they have not yet switched to the thing that joe and i think is going to win the election which is the contrast with donald trump and joe biden because right now they want to win the economic narrative, and they're going to continue to lay that through the 1st of the year, and by the time that trump gets the nomination early next year, they'll go to that

contrast. i think they're doing what they have to do. the polls will not move yet. the choice is not clear, but they will next year and the biden campaign is staying focused on what they have to do, much like the georgia bulldogs. >> what about this dynamic of third party candidates? bobby kennedy jr. won't get 20%, but if joe manchin gets in, and jill stein's there, and they bite around the edges of the vote here, how big of a concern should that be to the biden campaign? >> this is a place where i do bedwetting. this is the thing i worry about. if joe manchin decides he wants to run, that could elect donald trump and we need to be very clear about some of these third party candidacies. i think rfk jr. is different. he's talking about maga stuff, and he takes votes away from trump and not biden, but with a

democrat on it, that could be difficult and that's why i have been so critical of these stupid efforts. when people want to play around with american politics, we could actually get rid of democracy in the middle of this. so i think we need to be very, very careful about what we do because mika's right. this is about democracy. >> every narrow loss by democrats in the last 50 years, humphrey, gore, and -- >> hillary. >> hillary were as a result of third party candidacies. >> yep. >> that's the history. that's the record. so it's something to really be -- watch and be concerned about and you have to start messaging about whether a vote for a third party candidate will matter in the end. >> there are a lot of people fishing around for an alternative. it'll be interesting to see which way bobby kennedy's voters pull. will it pull from trump or biden? >> we'll see if he gets on the ballot. >> jim messina, thank you very much for enduring that conversation about football. cy young winners and a little

politics. mark, thank you as well, sir. mark's work as president and ceo of the national urban league is chronicled in a new documentary titled "gumbo coalition." >> we got a leadership book. this is for you. willie, mike, jonathan, i'll mail you yours. >> i love it. i can't wait to read it. >> "gumbo coalition" on hbo max. it chronicles the elements from charlottesville to the election, social justice reform, and in way in which janet and i from a black and latino perspective work together. >> movies, books and dancing. triple threat. >> thanks, marks. still ahead, we'll get a live report from san francisco where president biden and xi jinping are beginning perhaps a first step anyway to ease

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mr. president, after today, would you still refer to president xi as a dictator? >> well, look. he is.

he's a dictator in the sense that he is a guy that runs a country that is a country that's based on the downfall of someone else. >> president biden's last answer there might have been a bit awkward, but true after what was otherwise a productive meeting with chinese president xi jinping. we'll have more from their first face to face talks in a year. >> and mika, i know. i don't interrupt, but i will in this case, this clip is burying the lead. >> what do we got? well, yeah. >> we had a meeting that i thought went extraordinarily well fortunately we have the wise men here who can tell us, and the wise woman here who can tell us what they think. >> oh, good. >> i for one loved hearing what was said there, and i love the fact that -- >> yeah.

>> -- they're actually -- they understand that the united states and china, whether either side likes it or not, is -- we're going to be in effect, running a large part of the planet over the next half century as far as the economy, the environment, you name it, and yesterday it sure was good seeing the two leaders of those countries get together and say what they said, but again -- mika, very wise people here. >> joe, hold on. i just think it's great that he could say the truth right there in front of him and continue also to try and work together. it's a two things can be true thing. doesn't need to placate him. >> i agree with you, mika. what else do we have today? >> the latest out of gaza following the israeli raid of a hospital which sits on top of a command center for hamas. the idf releasing this video of weapons it says were inside the

facility. also ahead, the honeymoon period for mike johnson might be over as some hardline conservatives are now putting pressure on the new speaker. they've given him a lot of space though compared to kevin mccarthy. along with joe, willie, and me, we have elise jordan, richard haass, and former supreme allied commander of nato, retired four-star navy admiral steve stavridis. so let's get to our top story, and willie, take it away. >> all right. let's begin with that high-stakes meeting between president biden and chinese leader xi jinping. it was held 45 miles south of san francisco marking their first meeting in just over a year. xi was quoted through a translator as telling president biden it is not an option for one country to turn its back on the other.

it's also said there is room enough to coexist and to both be successful and that one country's success is an opportunity for the other. president biden said he secured agreements on three major issues including an effort to reduce the direct shipment of fentanyl in all forms from china to the united states. president biden importantly also announced the two militaries will resume direct contact and communication, and that both nations will coordinate on risk and safety issues surrounding artificial intelligence. the presidents spoke about the progress and about managing the relationship with china. >> these are tangible steps in the right direction to determine what's useful and what's not useful, what's dangerous and what's acceptable. the united states will continue to compete vigorously, but we'll manage that competition responsibly so it doesn't veer into conflict or accidental conflict, and where it's possible, where our interests are -- coincide, we'll work together like we did on

fentanyl. that's what the world expects of us. the rest of the world will expect, and not just people in the united states and china, but the rest of the world. >> richard, let's go big picture first. the optics of the two men, and then the deliverables on the other hand of the military communications and the admiral can speak to in a moment as well. how have important was this meeting and how important was the statement from president xi that the world is wide enough for both of us to succeed? >> all things, it's a good day. it's not sexy. it's day-to-day diplomacy. the word you used is correct. it's management. these are not solved and we'll see if this is implemented. a lot of life is about implementation, and we'll see if fentanyl, if and when there is a military crisis, whether there's any change on climate. we can go through the list, but the fact they're meeting,

high-level. they get a better sense of each other. you come away with a slightly better feel for things. i think that's healthy. is it a turning point? is it transformational? no, but is it all thing -- is this sort of thing positive? is this constructive? the answer is absolutely. >> and admiral, considering how bad relations have gotten -- >> yeah. >> considering the fact we could not get chinese military leaders on the phone, considering everything that was going on, and i will say the fear of a regional war in the middle east, the fear of a regional war in europe, the fear of china using that chaos and a stretched united states military to go into taiwan, all great fears, and this quote -- you and i have spoken about this before, and xi who sort of has echoed what a lot of people have said, turning our back on each other is not an

option. that is a sexy video right there, baby. i want the leaders of the two most powerful nations who have been at odds, whose military have not been in communication over the last year or so doing this. >> yeah. >> it's the starting point, but i understand that's all it is, but at least we're at the starting point of rebuilding this relationship. >> yeah, 100%, and, you know, so much of life, joe, is compared to what? and compared to a year ago when visits of cabinet officials were being canceled, when spy balloons were circling the united states, when ships and planes were bumping in the night, this is a much, much better day, and by the way, i wouldn't understate particularly one of the deliverables, this military to military contact. >> it's critical. >> what ought to worry us is the idea of a miscalculation either around taiwan or in the south

china sea where china claims its entirety as a territorial body of water. so you worry not so much about tony blinken and lloyd austin and joe biden and their counterparts. you worry about goose and maverick flying around in those jets up there, and i'll close with this. i think too much has been made of the dictator comment, you know, sort of saying that he's a dictator is like saying that jim stavridis is a short guy. i am. it's a reality. >> i would say jim stavridis is a learned, learned, respected voice, a giant of a man in foreign policy, but go ahead. >> maybe i have picked up a few things along the road of life, but i am a short guy, and so at the end of it all, i think i'm with richard haass. it's a good day's work. >> mm-hmm. >> i think it is probably a

quite positive -- if not a turning point, final thought. i think there's a little bit of chemistry going on here, and that's okay. you think about to reagan and gorbachev, and how did that turn out? eventually we stopped the cold war. >> right. >> could we look back at this moment? i don't know. let's hope so. >> elise, three words stuck out to me yesterday. when she -- xi called biden my old friend. you look at what's happening in israel and biden may have to move another one of his old friends off the stage to work with israelis, but, you know, i've said this for quite some time. i'm so sick and tired of people talking about, oh, we want an outsider to run the most important country in the world and the most complicated governmental bureaucracy, and we want rock. we want trump. we want these people who just --

again, have no idea. no, no, no. if i'm getting brain surgery, i don't want a guy who's good in action movies. i want a guy who's the best brain surgeon and who's done it a thousand times, and this is where we see as far as foreign policy goes. there's so many flash points that are happening right now, and thank god joe biden is in there. i was saying, thank god he's in there. we saw when trump left, nato was about to be blown apart. it's stronger than it's ever been. we got 600 more miles along the russian border. it's just extraordinary the transformation, and all that is is, that's working relationships, using u.s. power, leveraging it for good. so again, experience, who would have ever thought it actually leads to good things? >> xi jinping in particular, 70 years old. he and biden have, you know,

they have had a few spins at the wheel, and they have some experience. there's some shared experience there. i actually love that he just was honest and said, he's a dictator. i think it's good for him politically in america that american people know he's a dictator. china is a politically contentious issue. there are very few foreign policy issues that actual matter to the electorate, but on both sides, there are americans who are infuriated by what they see as china taking advantage of us through trade, and so i think that at the same time that biden can have the relationship, we need to be talking app he needs to present to the american public that, yes, he's still going to be tough, and he still is doing this through a reality-based lens. >> so what about taiwan? they discussed taiwan. to what extent, we don't know. what's the more direct concern. what's your stance between these

two men? >> nothing changed. between 40 or 50 years, this was the main issue. this remains the biggest potential flash point. this has been brilliant diplomacy by the united states and china for half a century. we've learned how to agree to disagree. we finessed it, and we have different views of where things should go, and we keep saying we do not want you, china, to resolve this coercively. to use a middle east phrase, final status is going to have to be determined by the mainland in taiwan. our view is not to be coercive. we agree to disagree in the meantime. xi jinping talks about this essential reunification. it's central to his legacy. we can't change chinese dreams here. what we can do is influence their behavior, and continue to signal to them that any use of force, any coercion against taiwan would end the u.s./chinese relationship as we know it.

it would be terrible for the chinese economy, the sanctions and so forth. >> right. >> my hunch is yesterday, you know, every meeting i have had with chinese officials over the last 30 or 40 years, you go through it and everybody talks in shorthand and you go through it. it has to be said, but i think the bottom line is nothing was changed and that's okay. we're not looking for big changes. >> admiral, it's been this way since 1979, since mika served caviar and spilled it on someone's pants. >> that's not appropriate. >> who hasn't? and tried to wipe it off afterwards. causing one of the great -- this was confirmed by jimmy carter who said, you know what mika spilled caviar? >> stop. >> for those who don't understand why she was in that position as a 9 or 10-year-old girl, they opened normalized relations at mika's house, you know. we had the youth baseball

banquet over at a church on our street. >> you also spilled caviar or was it barbecue sauce? >> it was barbecue sauce. going back to 1979, there's always been this sort of -- this creative fiction. >> yeah. >> one china policy, china you say what you say, we say what we say. we shake hands. we do this delicate dance, and we -- basically we keep the ball in the middle of the table. it appears that -- and by the way, world peace may depends on that ball staying in the middle of that table and this creative sort of fiction, but it looks like we got a little more stabilization on that front yesterday. >> yeah. i think that's right, and i'll add to richard's excellent points a moment ago. put yourself in xi jinping's

shoes in beijing as he watches this debacle unfold in ukraine. and if you are xi jinping, you're asking yourself three questions. one is, i wonder if my generals are as bad as those russian generals appear to be. that's a good question. you don't know. your generals haven't been in contact forever. >> i was going to say, none of them generals have ever had a shot fired at them, and that's one of -- that's one of the important things that we've seen. is it not out of the ukraine war? that xi saw russian admirals getting gunned down in warfare, and just the horrific -- everybody loves to talk about, russia's doing well. no. this has been devastating for russia. it set their military back 30 years. it's exposed them. >> right. >> they're extraordinarily weak. i mean, you're right. xi carried that message in

yesterday as well. >> absolutely. absolutely, and let's face it. again, it's an enormous uncertainty for xi having watched this russian military break itself on ukraine, and if you are xi, you're saying, i wonder if those taiwanese will fight like hell like those ukrainians. he doesn't know. i've met with the president. i think i know their military pretty well. i think they'll fight and i think that's uncertainty for xi, and your point, sanctions. he watches the sanctions on russia. they're not perfect. they're a slow-moving train, but he looks in that mirror and says, you know, my economy, it's too big to sanction, right? we'll see. that's a ton of uncertainty for a man who doesn't like uncertainty. coming up, one of our next guests says the anti-israel

sentiment on college campuses has gone from misguided to malevolent. newsweek's tom rogers joins us with with his new column straight ahead on "morning joe." n straight ahead on "morning joe." he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ in the u.s. we see millions of cyber threats each year. only pay for what you need. that rate is increasing as more and more businesses move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background]

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the first war crime is being committed by hamas by having their headquarters, their military hidden under a hospital, and that's a fact. that's what's happened. israel did not go in with a large number of troops, did not raid, did not rush everything down. they've gone in, and they've gone in with their soldiers carrying weapons and guns. they were told -- let me be precise. we discuss the need for them to be incredibly careful. >> so richard, the photograph that joe covered, the confirmation from the nsc a couple of days ago, it's really just evidence of what everyone knows, that this is what hamas does. they hide between civilians. this is what they talked about and they hide between civilians instead of standing in front of them to protect them. this is the case israel has been making. there have been civilian casualties in gaza and they're trying to avoid them and that's a terrible thing and no one

wants to see infants taken off life support machines, but this is what hamas does. it hides under hospitals and schools and hides behind civilians to create the scenes we're seeing. >> and by the way, willie, those infants that, you know, end up needing fuel, guess what has fuel? >> hamas has plenty of fuel. plenty of fuel. >> this is why israel is doing this. every single military operation, the israelis need to plan. you have to deal with this dilemma. how do you get hamas without causing collateral damage with civilian casualties? we're seeing israeli forces on the ground rather than using large bombs from the air. this is a good thing. >> by the way, so critical was it not last week when they -- maybe it was two weeks ago. they cut gaza in half, thereby putting themselves in a position where they didn't have to have aerial bombardments as much as just -- again, going street by street, house by house, room by

room, searching for hamas and their weapons, and most importantly, the hostages. >> yes. it's more dangerous for the israeli soldiers. let's be honest, but they are willing to take that risk and they paid the cost. the number of israeli soldiers wounded and killed has gone up, but this is to deal with some international pressure and they're doing this as granularly and discreetly as they can. the strategic issues israel hasn't addressed yet. we can talk about all that, but this, i think, you know, i think this is educational. going back to what joe said, this ought to be part of the conversation. this just underscores what israel's up against, the nature of hamas. this is not a bug. this is the future. this is what hamas does and how they do it and it's what makes the military operation against them so -- so difficult. every single minute you are faced with dilemmas about how to fight a war -- a war against this type of unconventional -- >> against terrorists and, you

know, hamas did this. not hamas. isis did this in mosul. amazingly the entire international community condemned isis. you have hamas who started this war with war crimes, unspeakable war crimes. they commit war crimes every single day. they hide behind civilians, and the international community condemns israel? this is -- this is surreal. >> well, you have the leadership of hamas hanging out at the ritz-carlton in doha, and they're calling the shots and they've planned this. they know what's going to happen when they unleashed this terrorist attack. what was going to happen to the civilians in gaza? they were going to have to seek medical care after israel rained hell on them, and how then would the israelis would be able to clear this hospital? can you just talk about the

sheer impossibility of literally routing hamas from the largest hospital. >> yeah, let's start with the center of gravity militarily here. like that old movie "the graduate" when he gets advice in one word. it's plastics in the movie. in this scenario, the one word, military advice is tunnels. tunnels. 300 miles of these tunnels. israel cannot avoid shutting that down. otherwise they cannot -- >> admiral, if you were in charge -- let's just say this, okay? >> yeah. >> if you are in charge there, you don't leave gaza. >> no. >> until that entire 300-mile tunnel network is destroyed. >> 100%. >> filled in, finished. >> correct. >> and all the terrorists driven above ground and arrested or killed. >> correct, and it's a

mega-task, but the right answer is boots on the ground, and, you know, we talk all the time about precision-guided missiles and our very precise drones. the most precise things on the battlefield is an infantryman with a rifle. what you're seeing israel do, is use that precision-guided rep, the infantry at cost as richard reminds us, but that's the only way you can minimize these casualties, but i'll conclude where i started. the israelis are not going to leave that battlefield until that tunnel system is gone because if they don't, they can't turn to the mothers of israel and tell children they're safe in their nurseries tonight. they're going to take out that tunnel system and they should. >> while all this is going on in gaza, going on in israel, back here at home at least one person was arrested during a pro-palestinian protest outside

the democratic national committee headquarters. it was a wild scene last night. u.s. capitol police were there. they clashed with demonstrators. at least six officers suffered minor industries. protest organizers say at least 100 participants were injured after being pepper sprayed and pushed by police. the group was calling for a ceasefire in the war as scores of democratic representatives and candidates were inside the building for a campaign reception. protesters say they wanted to block the entrances and exits to force the politicians to listen to them. capitol police posted on social media claiming about 150 people were, quote, illegally and violently protesting. organizers dispute that claim telling "the washington post" they had locked arms when police responded with, quote, brute force. leadership was in there. hakeem jeffries and others in there. exits and entrances blocked. >> and d.c. police were prepared for this because those people had those same violent protests

when assad killed arabs and when tens of thousands of palestinians were killed by assad. those same protests of course, taking place outside the dnc. i'm getting word from our dnc correspondent -- that didn't happen, willie. >> no. >> that didn't happen, and how fascinating that the only time we see these protests are after jews get slaughtered and jews are trying to defend themselves against the worst attack since the holocaust, but they have the -- they have the nerve to act self-righteous when they sat in silence as 500,000 arabs were slaughtered including tens of thousands of palestinians by assad. you see, it's okay for them. they're fine when palestinians are slaughtered by arab leaders.

it's just when jews try to defend themselves and then it's a war crime and they're getting self-righteous. it's sickening. >> we're seeing it at the dnc and college campuses and let's talk practically about the idea of a ceasefire. hillary clinton wrote that piece two days ago that said that would be a nightmare for obviously for israel. there was a ceasefire -- a brief one in place on october 6th. we saw what happened on october 7th. the obvious point is a ceasefire, hamas will not cease firing. >> an enormous difference, and secretary clinton is right. a ceasefire stops everything. that's like a put down your pencils moment. it all stops. that's not what's going to happen here. however, israel needs to use the whole series of pauses. that is the correct phrase, to get humanitarian aid in, to get trucks in, to evacuate these hospitals and oh by the way, that ought to be the job of hamas to get those civilians out

of these hospitals and get them down israeli safe routes. get them out. all that is manageable. in a series of humanitarian pauses, but the idea of a ceasefire is ludicrous at this point. coming up, joe's conversation with oscar-winning film maker martin scorsese. they discuss "killers of the flower moon," his tenth film with the actor robert de niro. we'll be right back with "morning joe." or robert de niro. we'll be right back with "morning joe." my late father-in-law lit up a room, but his vision dimmed with age.

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>> from acclaimed director martin scorsese, the mastermind behind "goodfellas," and "the departed," comes the highly praised "killers of the flower moon." scorsese shines a spotlight on a dark chapter in history, the rain of terror of the osage nation in the 1990s. told through an improbable romance starring leonardo dicaprio and robert de niro, "killers of the flower moon" tracks the ill-fated encounter with sudden wealth after oil is discovered on their land, but as their wealth grew, so did a sinister conspiracy resulting in a series of suspicious murders that would later shock the nation, and now let's bring in the legendary director himself, martin scorsese. martin, thank you so much for being with us today. we so greatly appreciate it.

>> thank you, joe. thank you. >> we had the opportunity to talk before you went to oklahoma. you were talking about this movie you were going to make, but when you got there between covid and robert de niro's broken leg and a lot of other problems, this had to be -- just a pretty incredible challenge for you to make this movie, and yet it has just -- it's just turned out to be a masterpiece. talk about how rewarding this must be. >> well, obviously it really is. i mean, i -- it has taken over six years to pull years i was making "irishman." to see people react this way is really a blessing. >> you said you wanted to stay as true to the osage history as possible, which meant actually

learning their language. i just want our viewers to see a scene, just an extraordinary acting job by lily gladstone. here she's gossiping to her sisters over the handsome coyote. coyote >> after seeing the movie, i didn't have to read articles

telling me you actually had osage actors in there. it was obvious watching that this was so, so natural to everybody. i mean, talk about how important it was for you to get it right, to be authentic. >> again, authenticity is one thing, but you had to really live with the osage in a sense. as i say, it's all about trust. we had one of our associate producers very much involved in being a connection between ourselves and the key figures in the osage community, one on costumes, one on culture, one on language, because the osage language, we stamped it out. we destroyed it. very few people know and it's being put back together by the younger generation.

they taught lily and the women in the film that you just saw. the improvisation, for example, where she says something to leo driving the car and he says, i don't know what you said, but it must be indian for handsome devil. that is the very nature of their relationship as actors. they just trusted each other. >> i wonder why it is that for a lot of americans like me, even though i studied history most of my life, my exposure to it has been through "i buried my heart at wounded knee" and this movie and other pop cultural moments, landmarks. but we don't really teach this history so much. is that one of the reasons why you thought this was such an important story to tell? >> new generations have become

enured to this type of thing and they forget about it. it's like an obligation to see the film or experience it. i thought if we do it through the people, if they identified with molly and her sisters and even with ernest and bill. he's just a very weak man who's delusional at this point. how much did he really know and when did he know it about what he was doing with her and with bill. this is about love. so the corruption could affect every one of us in a sense. are we capable of such behavior? are we capable of turning a blind eye to injustices around us? >> it's hard for me to believe that until the book and this

movie, we didn't know their story. we didn't know they were some of the wealthiest people in the world per capita. we didn't know this story you're telling to the whole world was actually the founding of the fbi. >> that's right. that's through really david grand's book. what's a whole other aspect of it. i tried to tell the story from that point of view. but three guys come to town and look around for who did it. it's not a matter of who did it. it's a matter of who didn't do it. our culture is complicit in something like this. it's important to get it out there, talk about it, argue about it, live through it, you know? >> this is a reunion of sorts for de niro and dicaprio, right?

>> their first film together was "this boy's life" in which he played dicaprio's father. this is almost 22 years ago. we were talking about something else and he said by the way i'm working this film, "this boy's life." there's this kid dicaprio that we've got to work with. it was almost like a family situation. the newcomer, of course, was lily. in a sense, it was like a real family that we created. we had a head start because leo and bob already played family and we know each other so well. >> you can watch the apple original film "killers of the flower moon" in theaters world wide. it is extraordinary. martin scorsese, what an honor

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were you aware of this? >> as i said, i haven't seen the photos that you're holding up before. >> maybe -- well, i posted them on my twitter account. it's public. >> i don't spend a lot of time on twitter. >> well, you know -- oh, i'm sure you do, because the department of homeland security organized with other offices has censored many americans, including myself. >> i'm not part of the department of homeland security. >> right. mr. wray, you should be interested in investigating terrorism. >> wow. come on! look at that clip. you hear donald trump saying he's going to terminate the

constitution. and we have chip roy, i think, delivering the most eloquent, democratic speech of the year, demanding name one thing the republican party has done, one thing of substance. nothing. it is government by and for the gesture. that's all it's about. >> we're going to show chip roy in just a moment making that passionate plea to his colleagues in the house, we got to do something. this is a corny point, but i think you'll appreciate it. but the idea, i think, of public service is to make people's lives better. i'm going to pass legislation that makes people's lives easier and lessens their pain. now we have a collection of people who just want to get on tv, who want to raise money, who

want to be famous, who want to have podcasts. that's the result of that. we just watched perhaps the prime example of proud ignorance in the house of representatives. >> that's a great term. >> you know, the funny thing is people -- after i got out of congress, oh, you must have hated that. no. actually, it's great. people ten years later come up to me on an airplane and they'd say my grandparents were having trouble, they were about to lose their farm. the irs had been there for eight, nine years. they came in and i called up the irs person and said listen, if they committed a crime, throw them in jail. if they haven't, please wrap it up and get off their property so they can get back to work. the irs agent, yep, okay, i'm sorry, we're going to do that. there are so many times where you actually have a chance to

make people's lives better if you're interested in making people's lives better. >> it's such a cool job. >> well, i wouldn't go that far. >> it is. you loved it. it is such an honor. >> it is a great honor, greatest honor of my life for people to actually vote for me. >> tell what your favorite part of the job was. >> what do i say at home around the dinner table? that's the funny thing. i was on there going shut this agency down and all of this stuff. that's what people saw on tv. but we obsessed over constituent services. i said when somebody comes in, you take care of them. you tell me what they need. we'll send a letter to the agency. we'll call the agency. when i was out, everybody was

going, oh, you know, you were a champion for this or champion for that. was that your favorite part of the job? no. my favorite part of the job was i could actually do something to help people's lives. it made a huge difference. somebody would be stuck in peru and their mother's funeral and they couldn't get out. we would get a call in the middle of the night. call the state department. you know, they'd take care of it and get them home for things like that. so when i see jackasses screaming and yelling and gesturing for tiktok and $25 donations, oh, it's horrible for the institution. yeah, it is, but it's horrible for the people they're supposed to serve. it's all gesture and no governing. >> i think that is the most negative part of it.

they're not even serving the people they claim to represent or care about. when you talk about that constituent services was the main thing, the bible says the servant is the greatest among us. i think too many of us want to be leaders without serving. if you're serving, you can lead. i've been around people that just the noise was the objective. no. you use the noise to get in and make a difference. if at the end of the day you haven't helped the community, you're just using them as props. >> we have talked about this before where parts of our own lives we were the noise. we were part of the noise. when you find out that actually you can do more than that, hey, you got to do this, but you've

got to do it responsibly. >> and you use the noise to go somewhere where you can have the noise orchestrated to where it provides something that will lead to substance. we still make a lot of noise. >> i don't shut up. >> but it's heading somewhere. it's not noise just to be making noise. that's the difference between what we're seeing with the so-called freedom caucus and some of the activists on both sides of these issues. they're more caught up in the noise than they are there where we're going to go. we have launched the fourth hour of "morning joe" at six past the hour. president biden and chinese president xi held a high-stakes meeting in california yesterday. the president called the discussion productive and said progress was made in two key areas. joining us from san francisco, nbc news chief white house

correspondent peter alexander with more. peter. >> reporter: mika, good morning. the biggest headline really from this summit here may simply be the fact that it happened with tensions rising between theist and china. the leaders of the world's two greatest super powers had not even spoken in a year, but now lowering the temperature to pick up the phone when the other one calls. following his historic summit with president xi, their first meeting in a year, president biden touting progress in restoring some normalcy to the u.s. and china's strained relationship. >> i believe they were some of the most constructive discussions we've had. >> reporter: no major breakthroughs and no concrete commitments from the chinese to use their leverage with russia and iran to diffuse the wars in ukraine and the middle east, but they agreed to resume military to military communications and

to combat the flow of fentanyl to the u.s. >> more people die from fentanyl than guns, car accidents or any other cause. >> reporter: as for concerns about china's interference in the 2024 election, president biden said he was blunt. >> i made it clear i didn't expect any interference. >> reporter: the president's comments punctuating a warm greeting from his adversary in the meeting, but emphasized a way forward. planet earth is big enough for the two countries to succeed, xi said, while adding it is unrealistic for one side to remodel the other. and conflict and confrontation, he said, has unbearable consequences for both countries. later, president biden standing by his past assessment that president xi is a dictator. >> look, he is. he's a dictator in the sense that he's a guy who runs a country that is a communist country. >> reporter: the chinese foreign

ministry responding, calling the remark extremely wrong and irresponsible political manipulation. overnight the communist leader was the guest of honor at a dinner featuring a parade of american business leaders including elon musk and the heads of apple, boeing and fedex. that scene from the event for xi last night was pretty striking. you had two standing ovations more than a minute long from some of the world's biggest businessmen, billionaires in this country, all celebrating the world's biggest communist. one other item to chalk up as panda diplomacy just a week after washington's national zoo said good-bye to those three giant pandas, president xi teased that china will send more pandas to the u.s. he called them envoys of friendship. no specific details on how many or when they'll arrive, but he said they are likely to end up at the same san diego zoo.

mika. >> okay. peter alexander, thank you very much for that report. back in washington, president biden has a bill to temporarily fun the government waiting for him on his desk. the senate passed the stopgap measure late last night after the house approved the continuing resolution on tuesday. both chambers are now in recess for next week's thanksgiving holiday, which sparked a fiery speech from hard line republican and freedom caucus member chip roy. >> what are my republican colleagues doing? they are all too happy to have this vote go down today and get on their airplanes and go home for thanksgiving. why aren't we putting another bill on the floor of the house right now and sending it to the senate to shove it down their throats to say that we republicans stand for cutting spending? we stand for standing with israel? we stand for securing the border with the united states?

no, no, no. let's just go back and go raise some money so we can do more fundraisers so we can get elected so we can come back here and offer more excuses for why we don't get the job done. one thing! i want my republican colleagues to give me one thing, one that i can go campaign on and say we did. one! anybody sitting in the complex, if you want to come to the floor and explain to me one material, meaningful, significant thing the republican majority has done besides, well, i guess it's not as bad as the democrats. >> one thing, anyone? also with us, we have maura gay and author and anand girharadas

whose book is out now. chip roy, joe. >> that ad was paid for by the democratic national committee. you'll be hearing it across america in many districts. >> he had a point. is there an answer to that question? is there one thing? >> he did have a point. you go down this list. we republicans standing for cutting spending. no, you don't. under donald trump, republicans raised the national debt more in four years than the united states did in its first 215 years of existence. they said they support israel. they passed a bill that was dead on arrival instead of supporting president biden's bill on israel. they said we should be supporting defending the southern border. well, then support the bill that spends billions of dollars on securing the southern border. i mean, biden's put it all out

there, and they've said no, no, no, no. talking about my time in congress, nancy pelosi and i once a year would work on the same thing. that would be to stop most favored trade status for the communist chinese government. we'd have ceos come in and they would lobby members of congress and they would say, you know, the boeing ceo or the mcdonald's ceo. one of them said china's the largest democracy in the world because they have the most people. they would do the most asinine arguments because they all wanted access to the market. for billionaires to be giving xi a standing ovation, i mean, the irony, so rich.

>> it's rich. we all laughed. it is pathetic. it's embarrassing. at the same time, it's kind of dark. i mean, you hate to go there, because you have to think there are so many americans who feel they've lost faith in the government. i think some of the root of that is looking at some of these high jinks and the hypocrisy and saying nothing matters anymore, so i may as well vote for donald trump. they're all corrupt. that's not actually true. but this when this moral decline takes place, this opens the door to this cynicism. the freedom caucus, when you look at them, it's hard not to think about that. what do the voters who have put the freedom caucus into office, how little faith do they have in the united states government that they have sent people there to do the work of clowns instead of the work of governing, of

delivering for them as constituents and americans and to the rest of the country? i think it is easy to laugh about it, but at the end of the day it's depressing. it's depressing that in some way the government has become so divorced from the needs of everyday americans that they think, well, there's no difference between someone who's actually doing constituent services and somebody who is just going to make a speech. i can remember too when hillary clinton, who was detested on staten island, for example, where republicans have a stronghold. even there as a reporter, they would talk about her service to the 9/11 fund that would help firefighters, who are mostly republican, who needed services, because they were getting sick from the diseases they got on 9/11. they would say, i don't support

her politics, but she delivered for us. we've lost that, i think. there's no expectation among some american voters that that's what government is here for. that's kind of sad. >> you're right. there are people that don't get the attention. we try to talk about it. we talked about mike mccaul who time and again says you look what tuberville is doing and it's an absolute joke. then you do have, though, it's this trump strand of the republican party. you talk about the freedom caucus. what the freedom caucus is supposed to do is what we tried to do when i was in something that was sort of a precursor to

it. i talked to mark meadows about it. i said stop doing all this crazy stuff. focus on the mundane. focus on the budget. how can you drive the national debt down? we balanced the budget four years in a row. that didn't just happen. it was a constant fight. it was a battle every day. it was a battle in subcommittee markups. it was a battle in committee markups. it was a battle getting a rule to the floor. i'm saying this because it sounds laborious because it is laborious because it's hard work. but we balanced the budget four years in a row. hasn't been done in a century. these freedom caucus people, tried talking to them. they just gesture. then they've got a guy they're all supporting who talks about vermin, who uses fascist

language to win votes. i left the party a long time ago. i'll end here. mika and rev are right. i talk too much. but you talked about how people get overwhelmed and confused. i'm not sorry to say that's exactly what the fascists did. you read every playbook. you read what george orwell wrote about the fascists. they are incredibly good at propaganda. they threw so much at people that people just threw up their hands and believed everybody is lying, you can't trust anybody. >> that's so on point. i want to reframe it slightly. you are right that they are running on not governing and not helping people. they are running on elections not being valid things that need

to be respected. they're running on fascism in many cases. here's the puzzle. when you take it to the american people, those set of ideas are actually running neck and neck against governing and honoring elections and not fascism. so it's not just ten guys or a hundred guys who we can be outraged about. somehow this movement, many, many, many of our fellow citizens are looking at this. >> by the way, 77 million in 2020. >> correct. >> it's so easy to get outraged about the hundred people, whatever. but there's a problem out there among us. going back to the earlier conversation about noise, i would summarize it as you have one party that's basically all story and no governing at this point. but i think the inverse is also true.

they are up against, on the democratic side, all governing and no story. i don't think you can only blame the republicans for this. i think at the end of the day it's true of biden. it's true of grassroots movements. this is the conversation i hear inside these spaces. there's way too much of a kind of faith that if you just do the right things for people and do the right policies and the numbers are good, that people will reward you. all of us who actually work in the story business, we all know that nothing speaks for itself actually in life. you have to tell a story to go with what you're doing for people. i think in many ways democrats are leaving space for the mtgs and other idiots of the world by failing to narrate and offer a vision of america that is galvanizing.

that vacuum has to be filled. >> that's such an important point. first of all, the reason that marjorie taylor greene and others like her behave this way is not an accident. it's because she's going to get 80% of the vote in her district. the voters want that, at least in her case. it does appear that the biden white house and others have started to get that. you can't just run on unemployment is at historic lows. you have to start to tell the story of democracy versus fascism, which is where the stakes will be next year. >> and you have to connect that argument to people. the most effective way democrats can do this is to say, yes, the noise is justified and this is what we're doing, because we were the noisemakers. so i will never forget in early

2020, martin luther king day, joe biden came and spoke at the breakfast in washington. he said i'm really thinking about running and it was late. this guy, what he did in charlottesville, talking about trump, is a disgrace, he said. i can't let that happen. that's what kind of energized people. not that, well, i have tried to pass these bills. i'm running because this guy is a racist and we can't have a racist. they're not connecting the noise with the policy. it's all policy on one side. it's all noise on the other. you've got to connect the medicine with the ache. otherwise, you end up benefitting those that just play on the noise. >> talking about what the biden team is now doing, they're now connecting the dots and they're going back to what so many people on the right were mocking them for doing back before the

2022 election. i've said before here, i heard the jeers, the laughter, can you believe biden is running on democracy? it's too generalized, people will never understand it. you've got to give it to people in sort of bite-sized forms. that won't work. then they were laughing about abortion. can you believe he's running on abortion? the polls show there's only 5% of people who say this is the top issue to him. ended up in 2022 and 2023 people actually give a damn about democracy and they give a damn about women's freedom. it's kind of exciting to see men in a conservative state like ohio, the majority of men going out and voting for freedom for women, which is something i think a lot of us weren't really sure if they would do in a

conservative state, but they did. >> it's so true. back to this point about the gdp, i can't think of an election anywhere in america where somebody goes to the polls because they say, i'm going to vote for this guy because the gdp looks so good. americans understand that. republicans understand that, or they wouldn't be throwing red meat to their base. democrats u that? they're starting to. i think too often cynicism gets mistaken for sophistication. nobody's going to go to the polls for democracy, nobody really cares if women don't have the right to decide what happens to their own bodies. well, it turns out that is why they're voting, because they do see donald trump, i believe, for

who he is. they do see fascism. they are concerned about it. they want to have a better future for their children. my daughter is 6 years old and has fewer rights than i had 30 years ago. people still want america to succeed as a pluralistic, multiracial democracy. that is still the vision that animates. it's still inspiring. i don't know that anywhere in the world has necessarily a more beautiful vision, though we haven't gotten there. why democrats can't tell that story consistently is, i think, a constant frustration. there is a lot to be proud of. there's a lot to be concerned about. but find out what hits the heart and that will get people to the polls. >> i love what you just said, because i think democrats win by

stealing the republicans' old playbook. it was always easy to run against democrats when they're bitching and whining about how bad america was. we have a long way to go. my god, look at this country. look at the opportunities it presents. look what we're trying to be. it's the republicans now that are talking about how awful america is. all donald trump talks about is how horrible this country is. i think democrats have a great opportunity to say we have a long way to go toward being a more perfect union, but we're sick and tired of hearing trump republicans trash this country. we're sick and tired of trump republicans making it harder for men and women and the military to do their job. actually talk about what's right

about america. how radical. but democrats can do that now, because it's the republicans that are trashing all the institutions that the far left used to trash in the late '60s and '70s. >> there's a historic opportunity right now in this moment to claim the idea of freedom for democrats. president biden's reelection campaign early on said we're going to center the campaign early on on freedom. there's a historic opportunity to claim patriotism. "the persuaders." >> it's a great book. >> new cover for the paperback. >> it is. it was an incredible book as

well. everybody needs to read this going into the election year. there's a historic opportunity for democrats to grab the mantle of patriotism for the first time in a long time. not an easy patriotism, a patriotism that requires a hell of a lot of hard work, but a patriotism that still gives us a better shot in this country for immigrants coming into this country and for working americans than any other country. but we have a long way to go, but we're proud. >> for the book, i studied people, organizers in particular who are actually doing this work of changing minds on this stuff in a way that in national politics most of us are failing to. i learned three things from them above all that work if you want to do that kind of claiming. one, we talked about story. you have to cater to emotion and not look down on emotion. i think a lot of people on the

democratic side of things look down on emotion and think that if you're a serious person, you can't cater to emotion. we cannot allow the right to be the only people who speak to feelings. number two, home. this is a word i heard again and again that basically we're asking people for votes and for $5. that's it. that's not a movement. a movement is people who hang out. a movement is people who cook together. a movement is people who when i can't help my kid with their homework, someone else can. we need to build a social movement, a pro-democracy social movement that is like, when i look at my calendar for a week, i have three different things with people in my neighborhood. we don't have that. we just have e-mails for $5. third, on this question of country, we can't be down on america. we can't allow ourselves to be defined as hostile to america. we have to tell an alternate

story that is the story of a country founded on incandescent items that were so good that no one who wrote them down was brave enough to live up to them. but that doesn't impeach the ideals. it impeaches the people. >> by the way, those words, for me as a white guy, those words that were pulled from thomas jefferson, used by frederick douglass. >> used by martin luther king as a sword and a shield against racism, moving us to 1964 and 1965 and finally a new america. how exciting is that? and in 2020, when democracy was on the line, who rose up?

the very people who had the least reason, who were discriminated against the most, black women in atlanta, black women in philadelphia, black women in detroit, black women in milwaukee. if that doesn't give you chills that they were the ones who stepped up and stood in the gap and saved james madison's constitution, wow, is that not a country to love? >> it's unrequited love. the people of america loved least have made america what it is and made it true to itself and forced it to get truer to itself every generation. one of the other things i learned is people are not motivated to mitigate threats. people are motivated to also build something. so what do you want to do by saving democracy?

what is the kind of multiracial democracy we're building? by the way, no shade to other countries, but very few countries in the world are trying to build a multiracial democracy. europe has strong majority white populations can carefully managed minority groups. india, great country. my family comes from there. china not a country of immigrants, japan not a country of immigrants. we are trying to do an extraordinary thing. i would love to hear us talk about that more and offer it to the american people as a vision that is more thrilling than the vision of dystopia and every man for himself and hatred. >> i love what you said. i think also we let the far right take the symbols that work for us. jesse jackson told me when i was a kid that the symbols of the

civil rights movement was the flag and the bible. we get to the end of the '80s and '90s, the right had taken both from us. it was hard to fight dr. king if you believed in the bible and the flag. look at the marches in selma. they were holding the flag and the bible. once we let them reinterpret jesus as some conservative and not that all men should love with one another, once we're not preaching about how in the bible the sons of abraham had to learn to come together, it changes the framework of the middle east argument. i think we've lost that and we've allowed people on the right to just go ballistic on some cranked-up jerry falwell interpretation and donald trump, who couldn't quote one passage in the bible.

we need to say we represent what is righteous and patriotic. >> the moral majority was born and abortion went from being an issue that evangelicals support ed to a 1980 magically suddenly deciding that this was a central tenet of their faith because there was a southern baptist in the who i say that they had to beat in 1980. give me a break. thank you both. we greatly appreciate it. >> that was a simply beautiful conversation. it really was. thank you for being on. joe, you were part of it too. >> no, i wasn't. >> you were great. and willie and rev. >> it takes a village, guys. >> it takes a village, exactly. up next, we're making the turn to something very

different. the property brothers are here. drew and jonathan scott join the conversation. they'll discuss the two new additions to their home improvement and real estate television empire. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. g "morning " we'll be right back.

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♪♪ 39 past the hour. a new report is illustrating the immense and growing financial toll of climate change, estimating its cost in the u.s. at least $150 billion each year. in addition, the u.s. sees one weather event with at least a billion dollars in damage every three weeks. it also disproportionately hurts poor and disadvantaged

communities and calls on the federal government to take action today. joining us drew and jonathan scott, also known as the property brothers. they've made it their mission to educate the public on how to stay eco-friendly while bringing people's dream homes to live. jonathan currently served as an advisor to former vice president al gore's climate organization. you guys have this huge empire you have created, but the through line is the connectivity on climate inaction and trying to move into the future in a more responsible way. drew, tell us more about that and what your goals are. >> i think one of the big things for us is our through line is really family. everything we do is focused on family. we're not trying to trigger anybody with words like climate or sustainability even though

that is really important and we know a lot about the health of your home. we just want to make sure every family has the ability to live in a safe happy, healthy home and an affordable home. >> a lot of the technologies coming out now are so expensive that they're out of reach. we manufacture about 10,000 products for the home. we're trying to introduce them as a much more affordable rate. >> there's new roofing you can do that you don't have to have the big solar panels. i think the barrier for a lot of people is cost. you want to do it, but you can't afford to. are we making progress? >> geothermal is a prime example. nobody can afford that. the cost has to come down drastically to make it affordable. i've invested in a geothermal

company where we can bring the cost to a tenth of what it is now, which would make it feasible. i have solar panels and i've maxed out my roof space and all i can offset is about 48%. if geothermal becomes cost effective i could become 100% with my coverage. and moving to induction instead of a gas range and finding other ways to improve the air quality in your home. >> there are a billion dollars being invested in the clean home and the electrified home and also billions of dollars in benefits and tax incentives and other programs making it easier for people to get into these technologies. the good news is that is the future of these technologies because they're just better and cleaner. it happens to be good for human health as well. >> in the time you've seen these

shows, have you seen a change in awareness of people being more cognizant of the effects of climate change and the need to do things to give themselves a safe home? >> you can boil it down to the home itself and people are noticing that their utility bills are so much more expensive. when we shot our documentary on this secret war being waged between climate change companies and fossil fuel companies. people said we can't afford to pay our bills. do i put food on the table or do i pay my light bill is the kind of thing no homeowner should have to decide on. all these technologies are moving in a direction to allow those bills to come down. >> the moment you shift the focus to what is really personally affecting people, their family in their home, eyes open up and ears open up.

people realize this is something that's really important to them because it's right in your home. >> what can people do until those costs come down in the short-term? >> the most important thing they can do is educate themselves on the technologies that are there. for example, heating and cooling your home. heat pump technology has come so far. we've been using it in commercial spaces for so long because it's inexpensive. now you can use it in your home. technologies like induction, when you're burning a gas flame, you're pumping that exhaust into your home. definitely put your vent hood on the you're cooking. educate yourself. when you're at a point that you're making a decision to change an appliance, make sure you're looking at the green technology as the solution. >> rewiring america has a good website that is a calculator so

you know your rebates and tax incentives can be. if you are upgrading, why not go to a smart panel? a lot of the cost is offset. >> for so many people, they look back. barack obama gets in office talking about clean energy. they say, oh, they wasted money on this and that. the thing is you talk to business people and ceos and they're all saying that was then, this is now. what may have been a little out of reach in 2009 now makes great economic sense. the technology has come so far so quickly. it keeps moving in that direction. >> and gets less expensive as you go. the same can be said for cars. it's all moving in that direction. you guys told me you're producing 16 shows. >> yeah. >> you're adding two of your own to the empire starting soon

back by the bros and don't hate your house by the property brothers. >> "backed by the bros" is the current housing crisis. converting a garage in california, they're encouraging everybody to convert the dead space in their homes to a revenue source that gives housing to people. that's an opportunity to come in and use our resources to help people. >> people who wanted to be real estate investors got in over their heads and now they are screwed. we're trying to come in and bail them out. >> and "don't hate your house" with the property brothers. >> there are so many people that are so done with their home. when we walk in, we obviously see the potential very fast.

our hope is to inspire people at home to make healthy home changes. >> so many people drive by my house and get angry, the refrigerator is on the front porch. i'd love you guys to come over and help me out. >> i worry about you. >> you really should. thank you so much. finally somebody hears my cry for help. [ laughter ] >> you can catch "backed by the bros" and "don't hate your house" with the property brothers next year on hgtv. drew and jonathan scott, always so good to see you guys. coming up on "morning joe," we're going to get back to the very latest on the civilians attempting to find a way out of gaza city. raf sanchez takes us into the

territory for a look at one of the humanitarian corridors set up by israel. we'll be right back. k. ♪ ♪ [ indistinct chatter ] [ cars unlocking and honking ] [ engine starting ] [ "dancing in the moonlight" playing ] stand out in the new, restyled volkswagen atlas cross sport. it does life beautifully.

as the war in gaza continues thousands are fleeing each day through humanitarian corridors set up by israel to allow civilians a way out. nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez has more. >> reporter: under the watchful eyes of israeli troops an exodus of palestinians from gaza city is underway. children with their hands up, their parents clutching i.d. cards. the white flag flying amid the destruction. >> we've been covering this war for more than a month, this is the first time we are seeing with our own eyes palestinian civilians inside of gaza. this is what israel's military

calls a humanitarian corridor, opened a few hours each day for civilians to flee on foot and escape the fighting raging in gaza city. a quarter of a million palestinians have taken this route so far israel says. as a condition of access, nbc news agreed to blur some faces and submit our raw footage to israel's military sensors, though not our final story. >> i think every jew and israeli could be proud of the fact that we're letting innocent civilians out of the fighting area, out of the fighting zone to clear it out. >> reporter: for israel, this is proof their war is only against hamas, not the people of gaza. but for many palestinians this feels like forced displacement. this is their deepest national trauma of being moved out of their homes and unsure when or if they'll ever be able to go back. we ask israel's military can you guarantee that these people will be able to return home one day? >> i think that is really going to be in the hands of a lot of different players.

one of the main ones is going to be hamas. >> reporter: soldiers call out in he brew in case hamas is struggling hostages in the crowd. >> they ask children, put your arms up, we'll come and save you. don't worry. >> reporter: so far, no sign of the hostages. israel believes they're hidden in hamas's tunnels, like this shaft in a rural area of the border. >> we know if you were going to go through this, you would reach our hostages. they found nothing in this tunnel, now they're lowering explosives. moments later, israel searching for hostages held in darkness, palestinians heading into an exile of dust and despair. joining us now, editor at large for news week tom rogers. his latest op-ed is entitled israel singled out: flagrant apathy on campus over russian crimes, maga threats. and tom, you write in part, it's been appalling to watch students

many american college campuses voices sentiments over the israel-hamas conflict that e so divorced from any understanding of the history and the nature of the conflict. what makes this outburst of anti-israel sentiment go from misguided to malevolent is its contst with the silence that has followed two years of true war crimes in ukraine that have played out on americans' television and oinscreens. maybe the anti-israeli outburst of colge sentiment would also be easier to accept if america's college students had shown anything but indifference to the rise of autocratic, antidemocratic forces domestically, especially with the resurgence of former president donald trump and his maga movement, but not so much as a peep has been heard from these students who have dedicated so much energy to

their current cause. and tom, what do you make of that? is it -- i mean, i know in some schools they're not teaching the holocaust. they're not teaching certain parts of history anymore. are young people not clued in to the reality? what is leading to this apathy and then this misguided energy? >> well, that's what i tried to explore, and i really think when you look at what went on in ukraine, what is going on in ukraine, how that's been all over television and social media for two years, how the resurgence of donald trump and the maga movement is something we really have to worry about, whether an autocrat is going to reemerge as president of the united states, and it looks like that could happen, there's nothing coming out of college campuses on this. and so to ascribe their concern about what's going on in israel to altruism and idealism, rather than something much more malignant, it's very hard, and

it's very hard to look at a generation that is this accepting of gays, transgenders, the black lives movement and how this has sparked some huge reaction with passion behind it that's so anti-israeli that's all about creating a sense that israel is engaged in war crimes or genocide or is an anti-democratic illegitimate country, that really points to something far more malicious. >> you say all the time, you have to care for the muslim. you have to care for the jew. you have to care for people of all races, nationalities, religion. for some reason, as you have said an awful lot with jonathan greenblatt, for some reason the rules don't seem to apply when a lot of people are talking about jews. >> you can't have a sliding morality. you can't say we have to stop the killing on one side and not the killing on the other.

you can't say that displacement of some is all right, agreeable, but it's disagreeable with others. and i think tom raises a lot of important points, things that we're ignoring. there is major displacement in the congo. people don't even talk about that, and there's no interest on campuses. so my question to you, tom, do you think it's because people are guiding students in a certain way that have their own sinister objectives? or do you think it's just that the students just pick and choose what they want to become outraged about? >> well, it's very tough to say this, but when you look at the silence on these other issues -- and unlike what's going on in the congo or south sudan, what's going on in ukraine, what goes on with maga and trump, are all over the news, all over social media, and i have to ascribe this to real anti-semitism that is much broader on campuses than anything i would have imagined! yeah. >> and when we see the silence of university presidents, and

they've gotten a lot of rightful criticism about how many university administrations have handled this, the thing that to your point, mika, i think hasn't been done and should be called for is university high temperature -- university wide classes on the history of the middle east, on the holocaust. this is a teachable moment. i'm not sure this is just about ignorance, and there's something far more malignant there, but there's nothing like teaching what should be taught here to overcome this, and universities are not mandating that right now, and it should be. >> how do you explain something you just touched on, which is that the leadership at the universities, the presidents haven't stepped in sooner and more strongly to stamp out what is in some cases explicit anti-semitism, other times implied, when as we've said many times, these universities put out press releases for every other social issue that comes down the pike whenever there's a moment. why not here? >> well, i think that's a great

question. i think the answer is that they know that student sentiment exists. they don't want to take on that sentiment, and it's cowardly, and there's no good reason that a university shouldn't be standing for what is true antidiscrimination notions, moral values, and stand up against anti-semitism, but they should be teaching, and this is an opportunity to teach university-wide on a scale basis, and that should be undertaken, and it's not. >> tom's new piece is online for news week. it is titled "israel singled out: flagrant apathy on campus over russia crimes, maga threats." thanks so much. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in one minute. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in one minute we are gr

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