periodical, a new documentary that takes an honest and entertaining look at menstruation and run a pause in an effort to smash historic stigmas. you can watch periodical sunday at ten pm eastern on msnbc and also streaming on peacock. and on that note, i wish you a good night. good luck to our good friend lauren. i am simone sanders townsend, in for stephanie ruhle, who will be back on monday. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. today fulton county district attorney fani willis asked a judge to set the trial date for former president trump and his 14 remaining codefendants in the georgia election

interference case. that date, august 5th, 2024. now that date would be stunning on its own or. it's just three months before election day. but d. a. willis asking for an august 4th trial date today is even more of a big deal when you consider that she just said this on tuesday. >> i believe in that case there will be a trial. i believe the trial will take many months. i don't expect that we will conclude until the winter or the very early part of 2025. >> trump's legal team promptly filed its own motion opposing that august 5th trial date. we have no idea how the judge will rule here. but there is a very real chance that former prior president trump could be on trial during the closing weeks of the 2024 election, elected, itself through january six in the

election certification process, and maybe even through inauguration. and we remember how that all went down last time, don't we, in 2020? well, this would add a new level of complexity to all of that. this is not the only key date we learned about today. d. a. willis also requested that the judge set a final plea date on june 21st. trump, if you recall, has 14 codefendants remaining. four of his original codefendants have already pleaded guilty, and now d. a. willis is asking to give all the remaining defendants a hard deadline for making a deal with prosecutors. the state will entertain negotiated gilding guilty plea deals up until the final plea date, after the final plea date the defendants will only have the option of non-negotiated please. the state intends to recommend maximum sentences at any remaining sentencing hearings. so many of trump's codefendants feel like cutting a deal and

avoiding jail time, the clock is ticking. they have until june 21st. the reason the states matter is because they could very well determine if donald trump will be held accountable at all. trump has been trying to push all four of his criminal trials until after 2024, at which point he might be president again and could make them, for the most part, disappear. and there are already two cases where it looks like trump's delay tactics might very well succeed. the first is the mar-a-lago classified documents case down in florida. this week the trump appointed judge in that case, aileen cannon, made a ruling that has experts speculating that trial might not happen until after the 2024 election. and because of potential scheduling conflicts with other cases, the timing for trump's new york hush money trial, that also looks like it is in flux. so those two cases might not be

resolved before the end of 2024, which means that they might never be resolved. but two of the big cases against trump, once with arguably the most serious charges, they do look like they will happen next year. one is d. a. willis's election interference case in georgia, and the other is jack smith's federal election interference case in washington, d. c.. the judge in jackson its d. c. case, judge tanya chutkan, said last month that this trial will not yield to the election cycle. we will not reverse at the trial date. that suggests a very complicated year ahead of her candidate defendant donald j trump. it looks likely that trump's first big trial, the jack smith d. c. trial, we'll commence on march 4th, one day before super tuesday, when voters in 16 states go to the polls and trump's second big trial, the georgia election interference

trial, that might start on august 5th and could last months, meaning donald trump may be on trial just before, during, and after election day. meaning 2024 will be a presidential election year like no other. once those trials start, there's likely to be new information presented that donald trump does not want to come out. last month trump's legal team filed a motion in the d. c. election interference case, and that motion asked the judge to bar special counsel jack smith's team from talking about the january 6th insurrection during the trial. trump's team claim that connecting donald trump and the violence from that day would prejudice jurors against trump. well, today judge chutkan denied that motion, which makes sense. it was a long shot request. it was a hail mary. trump's legal team ask for it anyway. and that is how much they do

not want more information about trump's connection to the january 6th riot to become public. but it looks like that is exactly what may happen. now just tonight, hours ago, a judge in colorado rejected an effort to keep donald trump off the states 2024 ballot. that case was based on part of the 14th amendment that virus from running for public office if they had engaged in insurrection. and even though that judge decided to keep trump's name on the colorado ballot, she wrote in her order that the court finds that trump engaged in insurrection on january 6th, 2021, through incitement. man, that is just a heck of a thing to have a court decide, formally. and it certainly does not bode well for donald trump, as all of these january six cases go to trial in the weeks and months and dayleading up to the general election. so buckle up. joining me now is david aaron,

former prosecutor with justice departments national security division and lease rubin, nbc legal analyst, the legal wind beneath our wings. every day a new metaphor. lisa, first of all, let's just start with the august 5th trial date that fani willis is requesting. does donald trump have a case to be made? i mean she says look, i'm not considering elections, whatever. but as far as the judge, judge mcafee in this case is concerned, does trump have a case to make that this will make campaigning almost impossible. >> he does. as much as i believe the donald trump should face accountability in fulton county and all the other places in which he has been charged with criminal violations, there is something that is like, there is something it key about preventing a potential major party candidate from

campaigning on the basis that he's been subjected to trial. is there anything legally that stands in the way? other than trump's first amendment right to political speech? i can't think of anything. he doesn't have a constitutional right not to be tried simply because he's a political candidate. he will argue, on the other hand, that it is somehow an interference with his political speech rights. that will be a difficult thing for judge scott for a few to balance. as you know, alex, scott mcafee has a background it's more similar to aileen cannon's then to tanya chalk cans. yet thus far he has shown himself to be fair here. it remains to be seen what he will do and how he will balance those objectives. >> all of this is tara igme toe for our judicial system. but it seems like it's gonna be the judge's opinion on how this should be interpreted. >> i think that's right. it's the judges interpretation of how this should be interpreted. and it's possible that his decision could be appealed. but usually judges have a lot of latitude in terms of how they conduct their courtroom, when the schedule trials. so scott mcafee is not just a decision-maker here. he might be the decision-maker here.

>> dave, when we talk about the public interest in accountability, as you look at the count calendar, and you look at the various delay tactics being employed by trump 's defense team but also the nature of pretrial motions and procedural delays, if you had to bet on one trial in the 2024 calendar, being completed by election day, would it be judge chutkan's trial in washington, d. c.? >> absolutely. judge chutkan is keeping tight control of the schedule, of the calendar. has been willing to impose orders limiting what the defendant can say publicly. she is really keeping this case on track, on pace. and i think that would be, you're absolutely right, that would be my bet. >> what is the appeals process like for something like this? who knows what will happen, but if donald trump is convicted on

some of these charges, one assumes there's going to be some extensive appeals process. can you paint a picture of what you imagine that would be and how long it might take? >> how long are my take is going to be a big question. but whether it happens that all depends on the outcome of the trial, of course. a defendant can only appeal after being convicted. so if it's gonna be an appeal by the defendant, the defendant would be convicted. judgment would be entered. and then that's when the defendant can file that appeal, that notice of appeal. at that point, though, appeals, as you say, can take a long time. and in the ordinary course of things it's quite a long time between sentencing, which can happen some time after a conviction, and the appeal actually making its way to the first level of appellate review. now under some circumstances the court of appeals could expedite that, and certainly under the circumstances that we are talking about, you can see why the court of appeals, and if necessary, the supreme court,

would be willing to expedite that but they do have to give both times both sides of fair amount of time to get their briefs in. >> i think that in the chalk in case the trial is excted to last 2 to 3 months. i'm harping on the timeline here because i can't get past the soria lighty of the beginning, it's super tuesday, having another trial that lasts through election day. in the middle of this we have the republican national convention, the smith trial could last march, april, may. who knows what happens after that? july is the republican convention. august is when fani willis would like her trial to start. you're talking about, lisa, the entire year, effectively, march until after the election, being filled with courtroom drama for donald trump. >> absolutely. and the one other thing that i would point out, alex, is that

fani willis, in her request to have this trial on august 5th, as also told judge mcafee that she wants anyone who's going to negotiate a plea to do so by june 21st, and so that would falls back dab into what we would understand is the interim period between the two trials. >> the interregnum. >> correct. so judge chutkan is done with her trial by june and we're not expecting fani willis to begin to august if she gets her way, the mid-period for the convictions is going to be another decision point about who'going to plead out, because if fani willis gets her way, june 21st is that dropped in time for anyone who wants to negotiate a deal. >> the end of flipping season. you can wear white pants after that. dave, when we talk about what judge chutkan, her ruling today, the evidence relating to

january six is gonna be part of this trial. talk about the significance of that, especially as we are talking about a man who's going to be running for president. these are two january six cases with a lot of overlap, and there's going to be a lot of talk about insurrection in a presidential election year. what is the, how meaningful is it the judge chutkan is allowing january six to be central to jack smith's case? >> actually what judge chutkan ruled today, or ruled in this order, isn't about the evidence at trial. it's about what's in the indictment itself. the indictment is not evidence. the indictment is essentially the paperwork by which the government charges the defendant. so there's a lot of information are a lot of allegations in the indictment about january 6th and the connection of the defendant to those events. and the defendant wanted to have some of what they call surplus into the extra stuff taken out of the indictment. really what the judges ruling boils down to is, we can whether we can talk about whether it's relevant, or whether it's inflammatory,

because it's in the indictment and it's not evidence going into trial, at this point it's just not prejudicial. it causes no possible harm to the defendant to have it in the charging instrument, because the jury doesn't see that charging instrument. the jury only sees the evidence the judge allows, in imagery only here's the law that the judge gives them. >> can you expand on that a little bit, though? what are the implications for evidence that would be used at trial if it's going to be part of the indictment is on that not mean you're gonna have me january six evidence in the actual trial? would that not be an indicator of that? >> it could go either way. if the government can show why information evidence about january 6th is relevant to one or more of the charges, then the judge would go ahead and weigh, well, is the relevance and the value of that information outwghed by any potential prejudice that could cae the defendant. but really, to get it into evidence, the governments going to have to show that that information supports one of the charges. here the ruling is a little bit

different. the judge didn't rule or that evidence or that information is directly relevant to any of the charges in the indictment. the judge didn't address that explicitly. she explicitly said she wasn't addressing that. the judges said here no harm including it even in the indictment even if it is isn't relevant, even if it is inflammatory. that's a decision that's gonna wait for another day. >> i would assume that's going to be litigated further. lisa, it seems to me there's an understanding that including january six in this federal trial is problematic for trump. it's not a coincidence to me that today the speaker of the house, mike johnson, said, the 90 hours of security cameras surveillance footage that we have, we're gonna leave that to

the public so everyone can come through it and we won't have to rely on interpretation of small group of people to tell us what happened. >> but it is an interpretation of a small group of people, it'll tell you. why there are 40,000 hours of security footage. that were in the possession of the january six committee. this is mike jnson making unilateral decision, i'm going to release 90 hours of that footage. how that footage was selected, what it shows, what daer it exposes current members of congress and their staffs to, that's something that mike johnson is going to have to answer for. but it's not as if that's the entire body of security footage that we are looking at. and certainly being put into the public domain because they know that january 6th is absolutely going to be part of the narrative of jack smith wants to bring out at his trial because in his view it's critical to how donald trump conspired to obstruct the counting of the votes on january 6th and deed accomplish that objective. that's the one substantive count that he is been charged for. all the other counts or conspiracy counts, but there is a substantive count against donald trump because that is where he succeeded.

>> it's also a visceral reminder for the jury of the gravity of what donald trump allegedly did. just the emotional force of that footage, of recounting that day, i would assume would have an impact on in jury of the presidents peers. lisa rubin, david aaron, thank you both for your time tonight. a lot more ahead tonight, including the 2024 republican presidential primary race. if you thought the result was a foregone conclusion, we are going to show you the candidate who might give donald trump a run for his money. here's a hint, this candidate wears heels. but they are on the outside of this candidate'shoes. first, though, companies are racing tonight to pull their ads from the company formally known as twitter. we'll tell you about it, coming up next. what causes a curve down there? can it be treated? stop typing, and start talking.

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used punchcards to track the flow of data. ibm was a pioneer in the original punched card computing system. in the 1930s and 1940s one of ibm's main international subsidiaries was in hitler's germany. ibm continue to business in germany during the leadup to world war ii, despite growing international boycotts. and then ibm's ceo thomas watson became the first american businessman to be awarded the medal of the german eagle by adolf hitler himself for a battering economic relations with the third reich. in his book, ibm in the holocaust, historian edwin black argues that not see germany relied on germany's punch card system to carry out its genocide against europe's of population. transporting operations were established in every major concentration camp. people removed from place to place, systematically worked to

death, and there remains catalog with icy automation. ibm has acknowledged that they're not sees used equipment from ibm's german subsidiary during the war. they have said the company finds the atrocities committed by the nazi regime abhorrence and categorically condemns any action which aided their unspeakable acts. ibm has not confirmed allegations of deeper involvement in the holocaust, saying that many of its records from that time were destroyed or lost during the war. but it is safe to say that ibm understands the potential danger of what happens when information technology is used for hateful and antisemitic purposes. yesterday ibm officially suspended all of its advertising on the platform x, formerly known as twitter, after a report for media matters founded his advertisements head appeared next to tweets promoting hitler and nazism. and ex executive responded, by saying the company has done a sweep on the accounts that

media matters found and they will no longer be monetizable and that the specific posts will be labeled sensitive media. to be clear here, they are not taking down the hitler nazi tweets. they're going to label them sensitive. that same day, ex owner, elon musk, quickly agreed with a antisemitic tweet on the platform, one accusing jews of pushing hatred against whites. musk told the antisemitic user, you have said the actual truth. cnbc reports that tweet prompted other companies to also pause their ads on the platform. companies including apple and disney and comcast, this network's parent company. elon musk, the richest man in the world in the order or owner of some several of the world's most important technology companies is now openly agreeing with some of the poisonous right-wing antisemitism out there.

there is a dark history of what happens when american business leaders become complicit or active participants in this kind of antisemitism. the question now is, how do we as a society respond? i'll talk to michelle goldberg and maya wylie about that, coming up next. why choose between a longer life or quality of life? you deserve both. and with kisqali, a treatment for people with metastatic breast cancer, you can have both. kisqali is a pill that, when taken with an aromatase inhibitor is the only treatment of its kind shown to both help people live longer and improve or preserve quality of life. because you shouldn't have to sacrifice one for the other. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems and low white blood cell counts

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that first time you take a step back. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy, with a partner that puts you first. godaddy. >> the deadliest anti-semitic

attack on american soil took place in 2018. white supremacist, we believe the jews were part of some grand conspiracy to replace

white people with people of color, shot up a synagogue in pittsburgh. he killed 11 people and wounded six more. this week the richest man on earth endorsed the very same conspiracy theory. i used her on x, formerly twitter, said western jewish populations are coming to the disturbing realization that the hordes of minorities that flood their country don't exactly like them too much. he added that jews were pushing hatred against whites. elon musk replied, you have said the actual truth. musk is the man who publicly picked a fight with the anti-defamation league and who has allowed provocateurs, that's being euphemistic, back on his platform, including notorious not see andrew england and artist kanye west who says he, quote, love 90s. even the white house is responding in a statement, we condemn this abhorrent promotion of antisemitic and racist hate in the strongest terms, which runs against our core values as americans. joining me now are michelle

goldberg, new york times opinion com columnist, and maya wylie, president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights. michelle, let me start with you. we talked about the great replacement theory as if it is some venomous idea that exists on social media. but i feel like it is actually become more mainstream than our political system. >> it's more mainstream the republican party. donald trump, tucker carlson, all sorts of leading figures in the maga movement repeat its tropes all the time. it's also worth noting that this twitter user, the one who talked about the hordes of minorities, he was responding to somebody who said something about anonymous twitter trolls who say hitler was right, come see it to my face. he was like, okay, i'll say it. i'll say it to your face. >> and then >> that is the guy that young elon musk are saying the actual truth. >> the great replacement theory, and in general, there has been a lot of attention lately to

antisemitism on the left, to the places where anti-zionism and antisemitism can interact. there's been attacks on jews linked to this war. but there is still a tremendous amount of antisemitism among far more powerful figures on the right. i don't think antisemitism is limited to one side of the political spectrum but in terms of the power and influence it has, only one side of the political spectrum has a probable presidential nominee who had dinner with one of the most famous white nationalists and antisemites in america and still refuses to apologize for it. >> and is out there having advisers like stephen miller float policy prescriptions that are rooted in the great replacement theory. stephen miller, trump's immigration czar, is speaking to the new york times and talking about what the immigration policy would be in the 2025 in the trump administration. he plans to scour the country for unauthorized immigrants and deport people by millions per year.

this is a person who really sees a brown threat coming across the board it must be stopped at all costs. >> yeah, and stephen miller is someone who some in britain about shown his origins and his essentially grooming by white supremacists. and remember he has had family members to denounce him because of his racism, because of his, the positions that he has taken. that's who stephen miller's. but he also is the lieutenant of donald trump. he is the person who did not leave or exit the white house when donald trump was in it and i think one of the things we have to go back to here is, elon musk is someone who is not just, i mean he is all the things we are saying, but underneath all of this,

including the great replacement theory in the point about donald trump's policy of whether it's building or wall, or the muslim ban where you assume everyone who is muslim is a terrorist, all of the hatred he has stoked, elon musk's platform is so toxic that it was reported and he threatened to sue because independent researchers were talking about the massive explosion of hate. what we have to remember at the base of that, the great replacement theory is exactly the kinds of theories adopted by the shooter who killed black people in a supermarket in buffalo. people who are killing people because they're lgbtq. the thing that we should remember is what we share as a large group of americans. these are not just enemies of a particular people. these antisemites are often racist against black people. they're anti-lgbtq. they islamophobes. they're anti-arab american. and they spew hate and the violence that can produce against all of us, and that has to be a wake up call.

>> as you outlined, there's very real consequences, this is not just elon musk being crazy and donald trump having dinner with nick fuentes and kanye west. this is a through line between the sort of rhetoric you're seeing on social media, the upper echelons of american political life, and people being murdered. so i wonder, michelle, what do you think of an appropriate response here. you have advertisers saying okay, we're done here. these tweets will not be monetized with our money. but didn't elon musk's takeover of ex come from he had been marginalized? >> it's not like elon musk and antisemitism is something we just heard about this week. elon musk has been i mean flirting is much to my mild a word, with his posts about george soros, his posts with him and kanye west, dancing on thing when kanye west first

emerged as a hitler lover. all sorts of pep either fraud, for a long time he's been sewing howell, and i think he even said he has been red peeled. take the red pill. and this who he has been for quite a long time. a lot of people have put up with it. they put up with his campaign against the anti-defamation league, which has now, bizarrely, congratulated him for saying that he is going to ban the phrase from the river to the sea and ban the word decolonized and uconn-ization. it's bizarre to me that people have been advertising all of this time. advertising often with their ads in close proximity to openly racist white nationalist content, and elon musk, i think we should also remember, is a

major military contractor. he's a major government contractor. i don't know if the free speech considerations with rolling their back, but it's bizarre that this man has some kind of security clearance have an intimate intense relationship with the united states military while he is spouting this ideology that presumably is antithetical towards united states is supposed to stand for. >> i'm thinking of tommy tuberville and his like, he is stand against the military reproductive health policy when really if we're looking at the military maybe we should wonder whether an avowed antisemite is the person the u.s. military should be doing business with. >> and racist and homophobic massage and. let's just go down the list. this is the guy who was upset because the writer of gilbert after doing a long racist rant talked about anti-whiteness in the u.s. media and the schools.

that is simply a shorthand for the great replacement theory. it's the same thing. and so i think part of what everyone looking at this should say is, yeah, as michelle said, why now? he has been promoting this and he has even been attacking independent researchers, just calling out the data after he decimated his -- safety team. and by the way, while we're at it, youtube, matt, i have both said, you know if you do election denial, even though the 12 million americans have said, if they support violence, if it will help trump be back in power that that is fair game now on youtube and on meta. this is a problem that we have to consider not just because of elon musk but beyond elon musk. >> michelle and maya, hang with me through the break. we have a lot more to talk about, including the effort to fractures democratic party and joe biden's chances. we'll discuss that next. and later, nikki haley has momentum in the republican presidential race.

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october 7th, some calling to support israel, others calling to support civilians in gaza. and the public pressure to choose asides is having an impact, particularly in the democratic party, which is showing signs of fracture. new york times columnist michelle goldberg writes today that the wounds, it has torn open will be hard to mend, because so many people are feeling betrayed. many liberal jews mourning the mass murder in israel and shaken by the uptick in antisemitism at home, believe that they have been abandoned by their allies. advocates for the freedom and safety of palestinians, or struck by more than 10,000 civilian deaths in gaza, believe that the democratic party is giving its approval to atrocities. back again with me are michelle goldberg and maya wylie. michelle, you look at the fracture through the lens of jim oppmann. can you talk about that more to the folks have not read the news? >> sure, jamal bowman is a member of the, quote unquote, the squad. this alliance of progressive, young democrats, all people of

color, and he want an upset victory against super pro israel representative elliott angle in 2020, coming at it with the energy of george floyd protests behind him. he's in a district that is about half black and latino but also has a lot of jewish voters, and jewish voters make up a significant part of the democratic primary electorate. bowman has been pretty consistent need to the left on israel and palestine, more so when he took a trip to the region and saw the occupation up close. and there is just this rift in the district between him, he's like extremely sincere, does not pander, and he's taken these positions that are anathema to some of the people that supported him the last two elections. >> and a right compassionately about both sides here, that there are deep seated ethical anguish over all of this, and even bowman supporters say, he

can't get to where i need him to be. i can't support him anymore, and vice versa. maya, the schism here in the party seems to be between jewish voters, and younger voters and especially voters of color, that is a division that the right-wing would like to explode. i wonder if you think that this is something that can be dealt with, healing can happen before 2024? >> one thing that struck me about your piece, michelle, which i thought so well rendered is that jamal bowman, who endorsed me when i ran for mayor, for full disclosure, and someone who i think is a deeply honorable and sincere human being, did what he should have done. he asked for jewish community members who can speak with him and have a sit down with him and talk honestly about what he saw and his concern for them. i think one of the things that have happened is because there

is so much trauma, so much pain, the rise of antisemitism is real. the fear that i know that so many people, including civil rights leaders, i work with who are jewish are feeling, is quite intense, even very progressive ones on the question of the region. at the same time, we're seeing a rise in hate against arab americans, muslims as well. i think one of the things that is so important to remember, is that we have to talk about the fact that this is a shared problem, that this is the underpinnings. we are seeing extremists white supremacists, neo-nazis, doing more organizing right now, actually increasing their numbers. it is a state after state unified. and i would say this, there's a lot of time before the election. put the election aside are now, the real question is, are we going to go back to understanding what people want and need to get what they need in their own communities?

there is real opportunity for that kind of unity. we do have to acknowledge and talk about the very real fear and pain that so many are feeling. >> i was struck by the way in which jamal bowman wants to hear about that pain and fear. even at the end of the, people are like, i can't vote for you. then that gets supercharged by the fact that you have outside groups, that are going to see more nimble members of congress, the squad, and right, michelle, about the implications for a democratic party that no longer has the face of it in such dissension, if you will. >> we'll see what that looks like, but, yes, there's been a lot of members of the squad, jamal bowman, ilhan omar, summer lee, cory bush, very well financed and potentially really ugly primaries. we don't know what will happen in this primary, but the idea that you have a democratic party that is already has a kind of collapse in support

from young people, has diminishing support among people of color, collapse in support among muslims and arab americans. how will it affect enthusiasm, if you see the people that they look to any democratic party be sort of cast aside? >> or pushed out. actually. >> i think that could be devastating. there are people that is where party leadership, you would think, should step in and try to head off some of these challenges. >> i spoke with hakeem jeffries, and he says he would spend hush money to make sure incumbents are not primaried in that, including the squad. we'll see what happens there. michelle goldberg, mullah wylie, thank you so much your time tonight. we have one more story for you this evening. is nikki haley on a path to turn the republican presidential primary on its head. we're going to have much more on that right after the break.

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see the best trolls movie yet. or a sha, ho, whoa! today. poppy, i'm your sister. my what? whoa. hey man, am i the only one without a long lost sibling? >> in new hampshire, a new monmouth university poll shows nikki haley leading ron desantis by 11 points. and in south carolina, haley believes she has a right path to victory. it is her home turf, after all. this is obviously bad news for ron desantis, but could also be bad news for donald trump. ben smith in semafor writing that the republican presidential primary is, against all odds, starting to

look like the exacting donald trump sought to avoid, a winnowing field that could possibly produce just want to get out with the january 15th iowa caucus, a real presidential face-off in new hampshire and a high-profile moment of opportunity for a challenger. joining me now is david philander, a contributor to the magazine covering national politics, and he is the writer of a new piece analyzing nikki haley's strategy to take on donald trump. they've, it it's good to see you. you have this quote from a desantis official, who has told you, vis-à-vis nikki's rise and people, governor elise rise and people. congrats, nikki, one person for the desantis put to me, you won the never trump ceremony, your price is nothing. there is a conservative belief if it does not matter if you do really well, because you're never trump. ultimately, this election will be about trump, trump, trump. >> sure. >> you kind of the book that a bit in this piece. >> the desantis theory of the pace. there may be some people that

are conservative but don't like donald trump. we'll try to get those voters. and also never trump voters, we'll get them, because they're the only ones that can defeat donald trump. it does not appear that that theory works. it seems that desantis more looks like a messier version of donald trump. people had the ruling, why not go with the shorter version with heels. haley has changed the composition of the precip, it until it's a conversation about are you either donald trump, or are you not trump? >> and lessons appeared to have been learned from 2016, right when everybody stayed in the late race, votes were scattered, and no one coalesce behind an alternative. that does not look to be happening here at this moment, and you're right furthermore, trump, if you look at him as an accomplice president is, actually not doing that will. >> that's the turn, trump, he is the incumbent. he's the guy that is running

again. if joe biden were at 50% or 60%, there'd be a major freak out on the democratic side. >> there is a low grade freak-out happening anyway. >> there is a major freak out. you cannot even imagine difficult on the democratic side. instead, they're trump's numbers. talk to me about -- walk me through the scenario by which nikki haley becomes a real formidable challenger to donald trump. >> i mean, it's a little star, shine and rainbow. >> sure. >> she's done by a lot, for sure, but i think what would have kept nicholson iowa, kept nicholson hampshire, as he said, then she gets to south carolina, there's a possibility at a real race. trump is below 59% in new hampshire, south carolina, haley, we'll see. maybe it bloomed off the roads

for him a bit, if she cannot come off of these states. >> it's also what we talked about at the top of the show, super tuesday is where the federal election case because in washington d. c.. primary voters need a reminder about why twitter may not be the best candidate, running people with 91 felony counts, january six, the insurrection, all the rest, could be, i don't know, and nikki haley. >> none of that has affected trump so far. i think that is one of the precautions. if he's expected to lose up because of all the criminal charges, when does that start? this is take the trial, and they had not done a. i don't know. >> one thing is for sure, tim scott has dropped out. we have a number of golden people who have basically hung up there spurs. ron desantis is not won a demya. but nikki haley is consolidating deep donor base. >> she started to, for sure. >> with a significant amount of cash, she's taken a 10 million dollar ad out, i believe, and perhaps the looming threat, the x-factor trials, i do agree with pence the sense that this is exactly what donald trump sought to avoid, where there is some lift in there for an unlikely candidate.

>> we never thought we'd get a race, but a kind of makes be looks like we're getting a race. >> do you take a come back on the show in nine months, you will come before that, in nine months, we'll look back and say, remember when we were roundly dismissing the primary as nothing to see, and not look what has happened? >> it's hard. if you squint, you can see it, but we're far away from the. >> david philander, swinton off, and you can see a race. we're going to leave it there, thank you for your time, sir, have a great weekend. that is our show for this evening. now, it is time for the last word with ali velshi, in for lawrence, good evening, ali. >> i know this is not how it works, but i want the commission to go on it for a few minutes. >> we got numerous seconds, i can't keep david, i can't -- >> it's very good. i think we need a complete -- that was good stuff, thank you, you have a great weekend, as you next week. and >> having a show. >> around the world tonight, we are facing a number of historic challenges. the war between israel and hamas with thousands of palestinian civilians caught in